Balrogs/Wings - Revision history

Fredeghar: /* Arguments For Balrog Wings */

2012-11-25T23:34:26Z

Arguments For Balrog Wings

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:34, 25 November 2012
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	This is either a metaphor for moving very quickly, or a literal reference to physical wings - it is this issue over the verb 'to fly' which is mostly at the heart of the Balrog debate. Another, oft-quoted, example from [[The Lord of the Rings Appendices\|The Appendices]]:		This is either a metaphor for moving very quickly, or a literal reference to physical wings - it is this issue over the verb 'to fly' which is mostly at the heart of the Balrog debate. Another, oft-quoted, example from [[The Lord of the Rings Appendices\|The Appendices]]:
−	{{quote\|Thus they roused from sleep of thing of terror that, flying from [[Thangorodrim]], had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth\|[[Durin's Folk]], [[Appendix A]]}}	+	{{quote\|Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from [[Thangorodrim]], had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth\|[[Durin's Folk]], [[Appendix A]]}}

	== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ==		== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ==

KingAragorn Bot: Bot message: re-linked.

2012-03-24T17:18:21Z

Bot message: re-linked.

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:18, 24 March 2012
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	== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ==		== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ==
−	[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Fingon and Gothmog.jpg\|thumb\|[[Ted Nasmith]] depicts [[Gothmog (~~Lord of Balrogs~~)\|Gothmog]] without wings.]]	+	[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Fingon and Gothmog.jpg\|thumb\|[[Ted Nasmith]] depicts [[Gothmog (balrog)\|Gothmog]] without wings.]]
	On the other hand, the explicit reference to "wings of shadow" leaves open the interpretation that Balrogs had no physical wings. Balrogs were never exactly described as flying in any of Tolkien's works, including the "winged speed" language quoted above. Furthermore, at least two Balrogs fell to their ruin, apparently wingless:		On the other hand, the explicit reference to "wings of shadow" leaves open the interpretation that Balrogs had no physical wings. Balrogs were never exactly described as flying in any of Tolkien's works, including the "winged speed" language quoted above. Furthermore, at least two Balrogs fell to their ruin, apparently wingless:
	{{quote\|Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of [[Glorfindel of Gondolin\|Glorfindel]] with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.\|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"}}		{{quote\|Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of [[Glorfindel of Gondolin\|Glorfindel]] with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.\|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"}}

KingAragorn: moved Balrogs/wings to Balrogs/Wings

2011-11-24T15:25:42Z

moved Balrogs/wings to Balrogs/Wings

← Older revision

Revision as of 15:25, 24 November 2011

Mith: Re-linked

2010-03-02T17:38:01Z

Re-linked

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:38, 2 March 2010
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	== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ==		== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ==
−	[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Fingon and Gothmog.jpg\|thumb\|[[Ted Nasmith]] depicts [[Gothmog]] without wings.]]	+	[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Fingon and Gothmog.jpg\|thumb\|[[Ted Nasmith]] depicts [[Gothmog (Lord of Balrogs)\|Gothmog]] without wings.]]
	On the other hand, the explicit reference to "wings of shadow" leaves open the interpretation that Balrogs had no physical wings. Balrogs were never exactly described as flying in any of Tolkien's works, including the "winged speed" language quoted above. Furthermore, at least two Balrogs fell to their ruin, apparently wingless:		On the other hand, the explicit reference to "wings of shadow" leaves open the interpretation that Balrogs had no physical wings. Balrogs were never exactly described as flying in any of Tolkien's works, including the "winged speed" language quoted above. Furthermore, at least two Balrogs fell to their ruin, apparently wingless:
	{{quote\|Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of [[Glorfindel of Gondolin\|Glorfindel]] with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.\|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"}}		{{quote\|Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of [[Glorfindel of Gondolin\|Glorfindel]] with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.\|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"}}

142.68.147.145 at 21:39, 12 February 2010

2010-02-12T21:39:34Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:39, 12 February 2010
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	== Arguments ''For'' Balrog Wings ==		== Arguments ''For'' Balrog Wings ==
−	[[Image:John Howe - Balrog 05.jpg\|thumb\|[[John Howe]] ~~depict's~~ a Balrog with wings.]]	+	[[Image:John Howe - Balrog 05.jpg\|thumb\|[[John Howe]] depicts a Balrog with wings.]]
	The most common reference for winged Balrogs is the 'vast wings' language in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". The plain language here explicitly refers to 'wings.' Another Tolkien reference may be taken as evidence of Balrog wings:		The most common reference for winged Balrogs is the 'vast wings' language in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". The plain language here explicitly refers to 'wings.' Another Tolkien reference may be taken as evidence of Balrog wings:
	{{quote\|Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.\|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils"}}		{{quote\|Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.\|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils"}}

Sage: /* External links */

2009-10-07T12:09:20Z

External links

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:09, 7 October 2009
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	*[http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB6.html The truth about Balrogs]		*[http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB6.html The truth about Balrogs]
	[[category:debates]]		[[category:debates]]
		+	[[category:balrogs]]

Sage at 13:34, 16 June 2009

2009-06-16T13:34:55Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:34, 16 June 2009
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−	The description of the [[Balrog]] in Moria from "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm", in the fifth chapter of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' raised the question of whether Balrogs were winged. There are two references in this chapter:	+	The description of the [[Durin's Bane\|Balrog]] in Moria from "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm", in the fifth chapter of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' raised the question of whether [[Balrogs]] were winged. There are two references in this chapter:

	<blockquote>''"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."''</blockquote>

Sage: /* Arguments Against Balrog Wings */

2009-01-15T23:58:58Z

Arguments Against Balrog Wings

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:58, 15 January 2009
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	{{quote\|I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.\|''[[The Two Towers]]'', Chapter 5, "The White Rider"}}		{{quote\|I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.\|''[[The Two Towers]]'', Chapter 5, "The White Rider"}}

−	Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company." ~~Few would believe that Gandalf literally flew.~~	+	Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company."

	==External links==		==External links==

Sage: /* Arguments For Balrog Wings */

2009-01-10T19:22:40Z

Arguments For Balrog Wings

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:22, 10 January 2009
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	Tolkien's language leaves some room for speculation. The first quote seems to describe a Balrog covered in shadow that appears winglike, and is later 'spread.' However, the second quoted passage seems to indicate that this Balrog had actual wings that were spread from wall to wall.		Tolkien's language leaves some room for speculation. The first quote seems to describe a Balrog covered in shadow that appears winglike, and is later 'spread.' However, the second quoted passage seems to indicate that this Balrog had actual wings that were spread from wall to wall.

−	=== Arguments ''For'' Balrog Wings ===	+	== Arguments ''For'' Balrog Wings ==
		+	[[Image:John Howe - Balrog 05.jpg\|thumb\|[[John Howe]] depict's a Balrog with wings.]]
	The most common reference for winged Balrogs is the 'vast wings' language in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". The plain language here explicitly refers to 'wings.' Another Tolkien reference may be taken as evidence of Balrog wings:		The most common reference for winged Balrogs is the 'vast wings' language in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". The plain language here explicitly refers to 'wings.' Another Tolkien reference may be taken as evidence of Balrog wings:
	{{quote\|Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.\|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils"}}		{{quote\|Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.\|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils"}}

Sage: /* Arguments Against Balrog Wings */

2009-01-10T19:19:17Z

Arguments Against Balrog Wings

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:19, 10 January 2009
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	{{quote\|Thus they roused from sleep of thing of terror that, flying from [[Thangorodrim]], had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth\|[[Durin's Folk]], [[Appendix A]]}}		{{quote\|Thus they roused from sleep of thing of terror that, flying from [[Thangorodrim]], had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth\|[[Durin's Folk]], [[Appendix A]]}}

−	=== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ===	+	== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ==
		+	[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Fingon and Gothmog.jpg\|thumb\|[[Ted Nasmith]] depicts [[Gothmog]] without wings.]]
	On the other hand, the explicit reference to "wings of shadow" leaves open the interpretation that Balrogs had no physical wings. Balrogs were never exactly described as flying in any of Tolkien's works, including the "winged speed" language quoted above. Furthermore, at least two Balrogs fell to their ruin, apparently wingless:		On the other hand, the explicit reference to "wings of shadow" leaves open the interpretation that Balrogs had no physical wings. Balrogs were never exactly described as flying in any of Tolkien's works, including the "winged speed" language quoted above. Furthermore, at least two Balrogs fell to their ruin, apparently wingless:
	{{quote\|Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of [[Glorfindel of Gondolin\|Glorfindel]] with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.\|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"}}		{{quote\|Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of [[Glorfindel of Gondolin\|Glorfindel]] with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.\|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"}}
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	Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company." Few would believe that Gandalf literally flew.		Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company." Few would believe that Gandalf literally flew.
		+
	==External links==		==External links==
	*[http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#BalFly Could Balrogs fly?]		*[http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#BalFly Could Balrogs fly?]