Forums:Full text of poems

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E.g. here and here - isn't this a bit of a copyright problem? Including excerpts for the purposes of criticism is probably fine, but by having the full text we're basically republishing a work without permission. --Aule the Smith 08:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Didn't we have an earlier discussion-that-never-finished about this? -- Ederchil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 09:09, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think we could decide. I personally think it's OK and counts as fair use so long as it's not just reproducing, i.e. they include links to other articles, information on their inclusion in adaptations, their significance etc. I can understand the concern, but I actually think we're safe on this.

Other websites do it, too, include Wikipedia, LOTR Wikia, The Council of Elrond, A Magpie's Nest, The Grey Havens, with non-Tolkien websites like Poem Hunter, too. That's not to mention all websites which include the lyrics from the films (which aren't pre-existing poems) which would surely be covered by the same copyright rules?

Also, so long as we reference, we are an academic and educative institution, not someone/thing which is exploiting the works for the personal gain. Wikipedia says, "Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship" - I think we fulfil nearly all of those categories. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Fair use doctrine underpins this entire project, absolutely. But the key phrase there is "limited use". Of the articles in the Wikipedia category you linked only four of them actually include the full text of the poem, and in three of them the poem is itself an excerpt not a standalone work (e.g. A Elbereth Gilthoniel from LotR) and I would be hesitant to follow the example of those other smaller wikis because there's no reason to think they'd be more likely to get the problem right than us. Reproducing a copyrighted work verbatim is not commentary or criticism (even if it is accompanied by it), and lyrics and poems are definitely copyrighted works. My opinion is that in all our articles based on HoME we should stick to describing the works in it and CJRT's commentary on them, using verbatim excerpts very sparingly as illustration. That's the spirit of fair use. --Aule the Smith 10:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Mith about this. --Amroth 13:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Within the scale of the legendarium those songs are limited use. Furthermore, if "reproducing copyrighted work verbatim" is not allowed, quoting any paragraph would be forbidden, and certainly the Timeline and our attempt at creating a article for every year. What about Tengwar and Appendix E? If the poems disappear, by the same token a lot of other stuff has to disappear too.

Also - having existed for five years - if we were committing copyright infringements, wouldn't we have heard from the Tolkien Estate's lawyers by now? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 13:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that at present it's pushing fair use a bit considering that the pages contain nothing but the poems. We'd be fine in keeping them as they are, as Mith said they've been there for five years. However at present they are pretty much pointless pages, I wouldn't even call them articles - I'd say that they should either be deleted on these grounds or expanded to make them actual articles.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  14:28, 4 August 2010 (UTC)