Forum:Linking to redirects - Revision history

Mithrennaith: fixing links to User_talkpages now archived

2011-05-16T00:40:19Z

fixing links to User_talkpages now archived

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:40, 16 May 2011
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	:::Actually, not linking to redirects or disambiguations is sort of self-evident to me, so when a month ago I was looking at a few related articles idly, and noticed that [[Edith Tolkien]], née Bratt, [[Mabel Suffield\|Mabel Tolkien, née Suffield]], and the two [[Michael Tolkien]]s, father and son, were linked to inconsistently and partly indirectly, I set about to put matters in order. Only for my work on the two Michaels to be immediately undone by [[User_talk:Pinkkeith#Michael_Tolkien.2C_sr_and_jr\|Pinkkeith]], who thought those articles (one of which still doesn’t exist, btw) should reside under different names. Now, whether he was right or not isn’t the issue here (I don’t think he is, but I will deal with that on the [[Talk:Michael Tolkien (b. 1920)\|appropriate discussion page]]). But I think the policy on linking directly, that KingAragorn rightly says above should be established, should also make clear the principle that, among similar things, when a substantive article is moved, and as a consequence the pages formerly linking to that article instead link to a redirect or a disambiguation page, the onus to point those links to the substantive article again is on the person that caused the move.		:::Actually, not linking to redirects or disambiguations is sort of self-evident to me, so when a month ago I was looking at a few related articles idly, and noticed that [[Edith Tolkien]], née Bratt, [[Mabel Suffield\|Mabel Tolkien, née Suffield]], and the two [[Michael Tolkien]]s, father and son, were linked to inconsistently and partly indirectly, I set about to put matters in order. Only for my work on the two Michaels to be immediately undone by [[User_talk:Pinkkeith#Michael_Tolkien.2C_sr_and_jr\|Pinkkeith]], who thought those articles (one of which still doesn’t exist, btw) should reside under different names. Now, whether he was right or not isn’t the issue here (I don’t think he is, but I will deal with that on the [[Talk:Michael Tolkien (b. 1920)\|appropriate discussion page]]). But I think the policy on linking directly, that KingAragorn rightly says above should be established, should also make clear the principle that, among similar things, when a substantive article is moved, and as a consequence the pages formerly linking to that article instead link to a redirect or a disambiguation page, the onus to point those links to the substantive article again is on the person that caused the move.

−	:::I have a concern with the use of bots in overhauling matters. I have, quite by accident, already come across several cases where the bots, in replacing links, have broken things. I have already mentioned some cases on [[~~User_talk~~:KingAragorn#KingAragornBot\|KingAragorn]]’s and [[User_talk:Mith#Mithbot\|Mith]]’s discussion pages, but let me point out a few problems here:	+	:::I have a concern with the use of bots in overhauling matters. I have, quite by accident, already come across several cases where the bots, in replacing links, have broken things. I have already mentioned some cases on [[User:KingAragorn/2010#KingAragornBot\|KingAragorn]]’s and [[User_talk:Mith/2010#Mithbot\|Mith]]’s discussion pages, but let me point out a few problems here:
	:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].		:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].
	:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)		:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)

Mithbot: Bot Message: changing link to Boromir

2011-01-14T00:15:16Z

Bot Message: changing link to Boromir

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:15, 14 January 2011
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	:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].		:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].
	:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)		:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)
−	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor\|Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.	+	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor\|Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir\|Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.
	:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mithbot: Bot Message: changing link to Númenor

2011-01-10T18:50:56Z

Bot Message: changing link to Númenor

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:50, 10 January 2011
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	:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].		:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].
	:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)		:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)
−	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.	+	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor\|Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.
	:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mithbot: Bot Message: changing link to Orc

2011-01-10T17:52:41Z

Bot Message: changing link to Orc

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:52, 10 January 2011
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	:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].		:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].
	:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)		:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)
−	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.	+	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orcs\|Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.
	:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mithbot: Bot Message: changing link to Aragorn

2011-01-10T17:44:47Z

Bot Message: changing link to Aragorn

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:44, 10 January 2011
Line 18:		Line 18:
	:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].		:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].
	:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)		:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)
−	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.	+	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.
	:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mith: Reverted edits by Mithbot (Talk) to last revision by Mithrennaith

2010-08-07T22:57:08Z

Reverted edits by Mithbot (Talk) to last revision by Mithrennaith

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:57, 7 August 2010
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	:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].		:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].
	:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)		:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)
−	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[~~Aragorn\|~~Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[~~Aragorn\|~~Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.	+	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.
	:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mithbot: Bot Message: changing link to Aragorn

2010-08-07T22:33:44Z

Bot Message: changing link to Aragorn

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:33, 7 August 2010
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	:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].		:::#Please make sure the bot is only changing the exact link one wants changed and doesn’t cast its net too wide; e.g. when changing [[Took]] into [[Took Family]], not to change [[Peregrin Took]] into [[Peregrin Took Family]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Translated_names&diff=113010&oldid=112972].
	:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)		:::#Do not change the actual text of the article, but always change links to <nowiki>[[Redirection Page]] into [[Direct Link\|Redirection Page]]</nowiki>. The change of <blockquote>..... [[Zirakzigil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zigil&diff=115045&oldid=72142],[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Zirak&diff=115041&oldid=61654] <blockquote>..... [[Celebdil]], the [[Dwarves]]' name for the mountain called [[Celebdil]] or [[Silvertine]] by other races</blockquote> actually changes a correct statement into a misstatement of fact. (This example, incidentally, also raises the need for some guidelines in what circumstances to link repeatedly from the same page to the same article.)
−	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.	+	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn\|Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.
	:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mithrennaith: accepted

2010-07-12T15:11:02Z

accepted

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:11, 12 July 2010
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	::::I do apologise for my mistakes, but using a bot is definitely a learning curve: you have to make the mistakes in order to understand what you're doing (and to understand what you can and can't do), I assure you that the examples of my work you point to now are not what I would do now. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		::::I do apologise for my mistakes, but using a bot is definitely a learning curve: you have to make the mistakes in order to understand what you're doing (and to understand what you can and can't do), I assure you that the examples of my work you point to now are not what I would do now. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Apology readily and heartily accepted. That you check everything does go a long way to allay my concerns. (Yet KingAragorn failed to spot the error in [[Zigil]] when checking.) My signalling problems with examples here was intended as much to assist the learning curve. Yet I think checking by hand will remain necessary, as there will be cases (as under 3.) where re-linking is definitely inappropriate, and they are almost impossible for a bot to decide, and in several cases, consideration of the context may show that a piped link can be considerably simplified (e.g. I saw several cases of <nowiki>[[Balrogs\|Balrog]]s</nowiki> somewhere), or may even be removed as redundant (as in 2.). Eventually we’ll get things improved, let’s not leave too many casualties on the way there.		:::::Apology readily and heartily accepted. That you check everything does go a long way to allay my concerns. (Yet KingAragorn failed to spot the error in [[Zigil]] when checking.) My signalling problems with examples here was intended as much to assist the learning curve. Yet I think checking by hand will remain necessary, as there will be cases (as under 3.) where re-linking is definitely inappropriate, and they are almost impossible for a bot to decide, and in several cases, consideration of the context may show that a piped link can be considerably simplified (e.g. I saw several cases of <nowiki>[[Balrogs\|Balrog]]s</nowiki> somewhere), or may even be removed as redundant (as in 2.). Eventually we’ll get things improved, let’s not leave too many casualties on the way there.
−	:::::Consideration for policy: when a redirected or piped-linked other name is not listed in the opening paragraph of the article redirected or linked to, but relegated to an "Other Names" or "Etymology" section, one should seriously consider linking to that Other Names" or "Etymology" section specifically. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 15:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)	+	:::::Consideration for policy: when a redirected or piped-linked other name is not listed in the opening paragraph of the article redirected or linked to, but relegated to an "Other Names" or "Etymology" section, one should seriously consider linking to that Other Names" or "Etymology" section specifically. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 15:11, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mithrennaith: accepted

2010-07-12T15:04:38Z

accepted

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:04, 12 July 2010
Line 29:		Line 29:
	::::I can set the bot to avoid Forum pages, that's not a problem. I did originally do this but it then started bothering me that Forum pages were often linking to redirects just as much as normal pages were.		::::I can set the bot to avoid Forum pages, that's not a problem. I did originally do this but it then started bothering me that Forum pages were often linking to redirects just as much as normal pages were.
	::::I do apologise for my mistakes, but using a bot is definitely a learning curve: you have to make the mistakes in order to understand what you're doing (and to understand what you can and can't do), I assure you that the examples of my work you point to now are not what I would do now. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		::::I do apologise for my mistakes, but using a bot is definitely a learning curve: you have to make the mistakes in order to understand what you're doing (and to understand what you can and can't do), I assure you that the examples of my work you point to now are not what I would do now. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
		+	:::::Apology readily and heartily accepted. That you check everything does go a long way to allay my concerns. (Yet KingAragorn failed to spot the error in [[Zigil]] when checking.) My signalling problems with examples here was intended as much to assist the learning curve. Yet I think checking by hand will remain necessary, as there will be cases (as under 3.) where re-linking is definitely inappropriate, and they are almost impossible for a bot to decide, and in several cases, consideration of the context may show that a piped link can be considerably simplified (e.g. I saw several cases of <nowiki>[[Balrogs\|Balrog]]s</nowiki> somewhere), or may even be removed as redundant (as in 2.). Eventually we’ll get things improved, let’s not leave too many casualties on the way there.
		+	:::::Consideration for policy: when a redirected or piped-linked other name is not listed in the opening paragraph of the article redirected or linked to, but relegated to an "Other Names" or "Etymology" section, one should seriously consider linking to that Other Names" or "Etymology" section specifically. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 15:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mith: Apologies and defence

2010-07-12T09:53:32Z

Apologies and defence

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:53, 12 July 2010
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	:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.		:::#Related to the previous point is what happens to discussion or forum pages, where the poster may actually intentionally have used two ways to link to the same page, or two alternative names or titles. Changing all the intentionally different links to the same link to the title under which the actual substantive page now is (and may in fact not have been at all when the post was written) often turns a meaningful point into an idiotic triviality that is totally besides the original point. Changing <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Numenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum%3AEnglish_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=109076&oldid=108935] <blockquote>I think we should only use redirects in cases of singular vs. plural entries ([[Orc]] vs. [[Orcs]]), unaccented vs. accented entries ([[Númenor]] vs. [[Númenor]]), and the like.</blockquote> and <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir son of Denethor II]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> into [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Forum:English_vs._Tolkien_language_entries&diff=prev&oldid=108935] <blockquote>Unfortunately this would mean [[Aragorn II]] would be changed to simply [[Aragorn]], and [[Boromir]] to [[Boromir]], etc.</blockquote> seriously compromises that forum page’s role as an accurate record of the actual discussion. I think there is a case for excluding discussion and forum pages entirely from the ''direct linking policy'', and certainly from the current re-linking project.
	:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)		:::I’m concerned here all the more, precisely because I came to these examples by accident, and that suggests to me that many more pages have had similar (and perhaps dissimilar) errors introduced into them as yet unnoticed. I don’t want to tell you to stop using bots immediately (well, I came close ...) because I realise that bots can be a great help in such a project. But ''please'' think carefully about what your bot is doing, and what may be the unintended negative side-effects of that. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 03:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
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		+	::::You are right that we aren't even following policy properly because it comes down to individual editors' discretion on a policy they might know nothing about. I hope to sort this out in the not-too-distant future.
		+	::::When there are redirects of other names to an article, they should be listed in the opening paragraph as a matter of course, in my opinion, "'''''Bob''' also known as '''Robert''' or '''Bobby''' was a [[Hobbits\|hobbit]] from [[Crickhollow]].''" (Although if there are many they often get relegated to a "Other Names" or "Etymology" section.)
		+	::::Disambiguation pages: as far as I know, no page should link to these without intention. I spent a long time earlier in the year tidying up all the disambiguation and removing links to them. If there are any links to disambiguation pages, there will only be a few, and they will be much more recent.
		+	::::#With regards to Peregrin Took Family, you'd managed to stumble across the only substantive error I made (which was a slight sloppiness on my part). I check everything and if there's ever a mistake I always correct it.
		+	::::#I have never done that (see 3.).
		+	::::#With regards to Númenor and Boromir, these surely must be the only examples in which I ''don't'' use the pipe, as you rightly say (please do check everything else and you'll see I do do <nowiki>[[Direct Link\|Redirection Link]]</nowiki>). I'm not going to defend my decision on these two articles - because it's plain to see what I did and why - but what I will say is that after experiencing the learning curve of a bot I'm now more sensitive to an article's integrity than I was when I first started using it (that's not to say I wasn't before, as I say, I would nearly always use a piped link, but I have become more so).
		+	::::I can set the bot to avoid Forum pages, that's not a problem. I did originally do this but it then started bothering me that Forum pages were often linking to redirects just as much as normal pages were.
		+	::::I do apologise for my mistakes, but using a bot is definitely a learning curve: you have to make the mistakes in order to understand what you're doing (and to understand what you can and can't do), I assure you that the examples of my work you point to now are not what I would do now. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)