https://tolkiengateway.net/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=95.22.52.196&feedformat=atomTolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T06:35:13ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.39.3https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:T%C3%BArin&diff=234967Talk:Túrin2013-10-24T10:45:21Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
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<div>== FA prospects ==<br />
<br />
This is a well-written article with FA potential. A polishing would be good, with some increased subdividing into section, with some more refs.--[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 13:41, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: I'm the one who wishes most to see this article in the FA section. However, there ain't enough Prozac in this world to make me open that book again for further expansion of the text. :) But I will add more References and rewrite the family tree. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 14:05, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::I'll see if I can whip up a nice etymologies section, then... -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 14:19, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Are there any other possible pictures of Turin that could be used? The current one seems a little rough.[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 17:45, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::And VERY movie-inspired. Do we have Alan Lee's CoH book art available or something? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 18:02, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I believe you are talking about the image on the cover of the book. Well... we don't have it. But we do have this : [[:Category:Images of The Children of Húrin|Images of The Children of Húrin]]. And since it was ok to load those pics, I think it would be alright to load the picture of Túrin only too. I think. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 18:37, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Well, it has been changed with Alan Lee art. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 16:05, 12 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::I like it... though I think the quote's too long. I always liked "Farewell, O twice beloved! A Túrin Turambar turún ambartanen: master of<br />
doom by doom mastered! O happy to be dead!" - Nienor, The Death of Glaurung. Though maybe that's a bit too spoilerish. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 16:16, 12 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Oh, I like that too! Though IT IS a bit too spoilerish...On the other hand, who doesn't know Túrin died in the end? (Like that's a surprise anyways considering the previous events in his life...)~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 16:29, 12 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==FA prospects, revisited==<br />
In order for this to become featured, this should be changed, IMHO:<br />
* fully sourced<br />
* history section needs to be expanded and subsectioned<br />
* Long etymology section rather than "The Many names of"<br />
* Better sources of Inspirations. More secondary literature.<br />
* A new quote, see also above. I also like Gwindor's "The Doom lies in yourself, not in your name", which is definately true. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Renaming ==<br />
<br />
Túrin is the most common name for this character (as well as being clearly the most popular of the ''Túrin''s), with Turambar being a soubriquet. I think this article should be moved to Túrin (which redirects here anyway). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Agreed. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Second Prophecy of Mandos ==<br />
<br />
About this line: "It was prophesied by the Vala Mandos that at the end of time Morgoth would wage a final battle against the Valar, the Final Battle, and that Túrin Turambar would deliver the death blow, exterminating evil forever."<br />
This is a discarded idea. Should it be updated to show the last version of the prophecy, in which Túrin kills Ancalagon in the War Wrath?</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:T%C3%BArin&diff=234966Talk:Túrin2013-10-24T10:44:24Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
<hr />
<div>== FA prospects ==<br />
<br />
This is a well-written article with FA potential. A polishing would be good, with some increased subdividing into section, with some more refs.--[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 13:41, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
: I'm the one who wishes most to see this article in the FA section. However, there ain't enough Prozac in this world to make me open that book again for further expansion of the text. :) But I will add more References and rewrite the family tree. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 14:05, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::I'll see if I can whip up a nice etymologies section, then... -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 14:19, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::Are there any other possible pictures of Turin that could be used? The current one seems a little rough.[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 17:45, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::And VERY movie-inspired. Do we have Alan Lee's CoH book art available or something? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 18:02, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::I believe you are talking about the image on the cover of the book. Well... we don't have it. But we do have this : [[:Category:Images of The Children of Húrin|Images of The Children of Húrin]]. And since it was ok to load those pics, I think it would be alright to load the picture of Túrin only too. I think. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 18:37, 2 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
::::::Well, it has been changed with Alan Lee art. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 16:05, 12 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::I like it... though I think the quote's too long. I always liked "Farewell, O twice beloved! A Túrin Turambar turún ambartanen: master of<br />
doom by doom mastered! O happy to be dead!" - Nienor, The Death of Glaurung. Though maybe that's a bit too spoilerish. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 16:16, 12 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
:::::::::Oh, I like that too! Though IT IS a bit too spoilerish...On the other hand, who doesn't know Túrin died in the end? (Like that's a surprise anyways considering the previous events in his life...)~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 16:29, 12 August 2008 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==FA prospects, revisited==<br />
In order for this to become featured, this should be changed, IMHO:<br />
* fully sourced<br />
* history section needs to be expanded and subsectioned<br />
* Long etymology section rather than "The Many names of"<br />
* Better sources of Inspirations. More secondary literature.<br />
* A new quote, see also above. I also like Gwindor's "The Doom lies in yourself, not in your name", which is definately true. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Renaming ==<br />
<br />
Túrin is the most common name for this character (as well as being clearly the most popular of the ''Túrin''s), with Turambar being a soubriquet. I think this article should be moved to Túrin (which redirects here anyway). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Agreed. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
About this line: "It was prophesied by the Vala Mandos that at the end of time Morgoth would wage a final battle against the Valar, the Final Battle, and that Túrin Turambar would deliver the death blow, exterminating evil forever."<br />
This is a discarded idea. Should it be updated to show the last version of the prophecy, in which Túrin kills Ancalagon in the War Wrath?</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Misconceptions&diff=234955Misconceptions2013-10-23T11:28:31Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
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<div>'''Misconceptions''' have arisen and circulated over numerous concepts within [[J.R.R. Tolkien|J.R.R. Tolkien's]] [[legendarium]] as a result of mistakes made by secondary authors and of changes made by adaptations.<br />
<br />
==Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"==<br />
*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.<br />
**Although at some points referred to the "Years of the Sun", Tolkien never described the Four Ages as being linked to the Sun; or the [[First Age]] beginning with the first rising of the Sun. As [[Robert Foster]] observes, ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' is not clear about when the First Age begun, which could have been at the [[Awakening of the Elves]] or the creation of [[Arda]].<ref>[[Robert Foster]], ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "First Age"</ref><br>The misconception must have originated with the [[fanon]] dating of the First Age from the rising of the Sun onwards, although Foster admitted it was only a convention, as before that point the years can't be calculated.<ref>Foster, ''Guide'', Appendix A</ref> The "Ages of the Sun" has been repeated often in reference works such as in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable (as by Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen<ref>{{webcite|<br />
author=Steuard Jensen|articleurl=http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/DayBooks.html|articlename=Notes on David Day's Tolkien Books|dated=|website=Tolkien metaFAQ|accessed=}}</ref>) while [[Michael Martinez]] refers to the "First Age of the Sun" in ''[[Parma Endorion]]''.<br />
<br />
==The Arkenstone was a Silmaril==<br />
*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Lonely Mountain|Erebor]]. Tolkien wrote that the two lost Silmarils would remain lost until the end of Arda. However, in a partial translation of early Silmarillion texts into Old English Tolkien used the etymologically related term 'Eorclanstanas' ('holy stones') to translate 'Silmarils' - suggesting that he may have borrowed the name and other concepts from the Silmarils in describing the Arkenstone.<br />
<br />
==Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves== <br />
*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth. <br />
**This concept derives from being the youngest Elf whose birth is mentioned in the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]], and perhaps from publicity for the films; but is never stated in the films or the books.<br />
<br />
==Legolas' age==<br />
*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in {{TA|87}}. <br />
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' {{TA|2931}}. The date of {{TA|87}} for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. Tolkien never wrote about Legolas' birthdate.<br />
<br />
==Legolas' hair color==<br />
*Legolas is blond.<br />
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|animated]] and [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].<br />
<br />
==Elves' long hair==<br />
*Elves have long hair, both males and females.<br />
**Most likely originated by portrayals in the films and in fan art. Though it's safe to assume that female Elves had long hair on average, there's no definitive proof that this was the same for males as well. Both Elwe and Olwe had indeed long hair, as well as Fingon. <ref>{{The Peoples of Middle Earth: The Shibboleth of Fëanor}}</ref> Celegorm was also described as having long blonde hair in the chapter "Of Beren and Lúthien" <ref>{{The Lost Road: Quenta Silmarillion}}</ref>, though that passage was removed in the published book. However, it's not certain whether this was a common feature for all Elves, or an exception. <br />
<br />
==Names of the Nazgûl==<br />
*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman. <br />
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Nazgûl|Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).<br />
<br />
It should be also noted that Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict the idea that one of the Nazgûl was a woman, with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' shows all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].<br />
<br />
==The War in the North==<br />
*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]]. <br />
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the computer games ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'' and ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The War in the North]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].<br />
<br />
==Hobbit feet==<br />
*Hobbits have comparatively large, hairy feet. <br />
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". Besides the hair, Tolkien doesn't mention that the size of their feet is disproportionally large; they are portrayed so in several adaptations, such as illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] and the movies, where the feet are actually prosthetics. <br />
<br />
==Déagol/Sméagol relationship==<br />
*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.<br />
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This misconception probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]].<ref>[http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]</ref><br />
<br />
==Gollum's age==<br />
*Sméagol was born in the year {{TA|2430|n}} of the Third Age, found the Ring on his 33rd birthday in {{TA|2463|n}}, and thus was 589 years old when he died in {{TA|3019|n}}.<br />
**33 is the age a Shire Hobbit becomes officially an adult. Sméagol "found" the Ring on his birthday. The filmmakers evidently decided that the day Sméagol found the Ring was his 33rd birthday. However: Sméagol was not a Shire Hobbit, but a Stoor, and these had different customs - Tolkien states that the Stoors of Rhovanion received, and did not give gifts on their birthdays (in ''Unfinished Tales'', ''The History of Middle-earth'' and ''Letters''); and {{TA|2463}} as the date of the discovery of the Ring is an approximate, not a precise date. Thus, there is no exact indication of Gollum's age in Tolkien's books. [http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html See http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html]<!--Borrowed from Gollum talk page on Wikipedia--><br />
<br />
==Tengwar on Sting==<br />
*The [[Sindarin]] words ''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im'' are engraved on the blade of [[Sting]]. The worlds translate as "Maegnas (Sharp-point) is my name, I am the spider's bane".<br />
*The origin of this inscription is the depiction in the movies. In the books, Tolkien describes Sting as a rather plain weapon with a simple leather sheath. Unlike [[Glamdring]] and [[Orcrist]], it bears no runes for [[Elrond]] to translate in ''[[The Hobbit]]''. It first receives a name from [[Bilbo Baggins]] after he uses it against the giant spiders of [[Mirkwood]].<br />
<br />
==Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai==<br />
Saruman is believed to be the creator of the race of [[Uruk-hai]] (Uruks), the larger, stronger breed of [[Orcs]]. This is visualized in [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (film series)]] which further established this view. The movie also established wrongly that "Uruk-hai" are a stronger race of Orcs, while in reality it is simply a [[Black Speech]] term for the Orcs proper themselves (excluding the [[Snaga]]).<br />
<br />
In reality, the Uruks first appeared out of [[Mordor]] in the last years of Steward [[Denethor I]], before {{TA|2475}} and before Saruman settles in [[Orthanc]]<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref>. <br />
<br />
The misconception originates from the fact that Saruman perhaps created a race of Orc-men or Men-Orcs in his service<ref>http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Urukhai</ref>. However these aren't the same as the Uruk-hai.<br />
<br />
== Dorwinion ==<br />
*[[Dorwinion]] was only mentioned in passing until it appeared on [[Pauline Baynes]]' [[1969]] map, where it was placed on the western shore of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. According to popular belief, its location was not decided by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]], but by Baynes in random.<br />
**As [[Michael Martinez]] notes, this is a misconception that circulates as an "urban legend" in several websites<ref>[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/06/21/did-pauline-baynes-choose-the-location-of-dorwinion/ Did Pauline Baynes Choose the Location of Dorwinion?]</ref>. As [[Christopher Tolkien]] commented: <br />
:{{blockquote|Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, '''was communicated to her by my father''', but its placing seems surprising.|<ref>{{LB|Hurin}}</ref>}}<br />
<br />
==Money==<br />
*It is thought that Middle-earth is a utopia with no finance based economy.<br />
**This misconception is mentioned as such by [[Robert Foster]]<ref>''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "Money"</ref>. It originates from the very few times any transactions or the word "[[money]]" are mentioned in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' or ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''; most mentions of wealth are vague or in the form of [[gold]] or treasures. However in [[Bree]] both golden pieces and silver pennies appear. Furthermore, in a draft of "[[The Appendix on Languages]]" published in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'' some details of the coins of [[Gondor]] are given.<br />
<br />
==Gwaihir is the Great Eagle==<br />
*The (unnamed) [[Lord of the Eagles]] from ''The Hobbit'' is identified in the ''Lord of the Rings'' as [[Gwaihir]], as they are the same person.<br />
**This interpretation is stated by [[Robert Foster]]<ref>''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' entry "Gwaihir"</ref> and perhaps originates from the meaning of Gwaihir's name, which translates as "Windlord". However Tolkien never states that Gwaihir was the [[Lord of the Eagles]] and [[King of All Birds]]. Furthermore there are some problems with conflating the two characters:<br />
***The Great Eagle of ''The Hobbit'' is said to wear a golden crown<ref>{{H|Queer}}</ref> after the end of the book, but Gwaihir is not wearing one.<br />
***Near the end of ''Lord of the Rings'' Gandalf mentions that Gwaihir has carried him ''twice'' <ref>{{RK|Cormallen}}</ref> (once from [[Orthanc]] and once from [[Celebdil]]); if Gwaihir was the Great Eagle, that would make it at least ''three'' times.<br />
<br />
==Gil-galad's father==<br />
*[[Fingon]] was Gil-galad's father<br />
**Not really a misconception as it was at one point considered so by Tolkien, as in ''[[The Grey Annals]]'', and it is mentioned so in ''[[The Silmarillion]]''. However [[Christopher Tolkien]] admitted that it was a rushed choice as in his father's final scripts ''[[Orodreth]]'' was Gil-galad's father, and Fingon had no wife: even in ''The Silmarillion'', Fingon was succeeded by [[Turgon]] as [[High King of the Noldor]] instead of his "son".<br />
<br />
==Orodreth's father==<br />
*[[Finarfin]] was Orodreth's father<br />
**As with the above case, not really a misconception, as much as an abandoned idea. In the final text of "The Coming of the Elves"<ref>{{Morgoth's Ring: Later Quenta}}</ref> Orodreth was removed from among the sons of Finarfin. And later, in the essay "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", he's explicitly mentioned as the son of Angrod.<br />
<br />
==Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe awoke at Cuiviénen==<br />
*[[Ingwe]], [[Finwe]] and [[Elwe]], the three ambassadors of the Elves to [[Aman]], and later Kings of their people, were among the first 144 Elves who [[awakening of the Elves|awoke]] at [[Cuiviénen]].<br />
**''[[The Silmarillion]]'' only says that [[Orome]] visited the Elves at Cuiviénen but does not clarify whether the Three Ambassadors were indeed firstborn. According to the [[Grey Annals]], Orome found the Elves 500 [[coranar|years]] after the Awakening, a gap which would leave ample time for the firstborn Elves to procreate and for Elven children to be born and grow. Nothing states that the three Ambassadors could not have been born during that time, thus belonging to a second or third generation of Elves.<br />
**Furthermore, the Silmarillion is clear that Elwe, [[Olwe]] (and [[Elmo]]) were brothers, and that Olwe was younger than Elwe. This can't be easily understood if Elwe was a Firstborn (i.e. without parents). The [[Cuivienyarna]] mentions that Elwe was ''born'' at Cuiviénen.<ref>{{WJ|Appendix}}</ref><br />
<br />
==[[Middle-earth]] is an underground world similar to the Hollow Earth==<br />
*Middle-earth is a world that exists inside the Earth. Tolkien's stories are a kind of [[Wikipedia:Subterranean fiction|Subterranean fiction]] as they happen underground, at the center of the Hollow Earth.<ref>[http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1714 Example article] in a Greek occult forum</ref><br />
**The misconception circulates mainly among the Greek audience and is explained by the Greek translation "[http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%AD%CF%83%CE%B7_%CE%93%CE%B7 Μέση-γη]". Although the translation is accurate, the stem "μέσ-" can also be understood as ''inside'' by the occasional reader. The notion was popularised mainly by the Greek press, especially concerned with the occult or the paranormal. Those sources leave open the possibility that Tolkien possessed some esoteric or occult knowledge, whereas the fantasy [[races]] of Middle-earth are identified as the beings said to populate [[Wikipedia:Agartha|Agartha]].<br />
**It is made clear in the ''Silmarillion'' that the Earth is called ''Arda'' floating in space with atmospheric layers such as [[Ilmen]], [[Vaiya]] and [[Vista]]; and Middle-earth is a continent.<ref>{{S|Ainu}}</ref> The term Middle-earth refers to "our earth" and is explained geographically as "surrounded by the ocean"<ref>[[Dennis Gerrolt]], [http://www.lordotrings.com/interview.asp Tolkien's interview] to BBC, 1971</ref> and not being inside something.<br />
==The [[Seven Rings]] were made for the Dwarves and the [[Nine Rings]] for Men==<br />
*The Elves of [[Eregion]] made specifically [[Seven Rings]] especially for the Dwarves, and [[Nine Rings]] for the Men. Occasionally it is believed that each group had its own powers to be used accordingly by Elves, Dwarves and Men. The [[Ring Verse]] ("...'''for''' the Elven-kings, ...'''for''' the Dwarf-Lords") indicates their purpose and destination as when [[Celebrimbor]] himself gave [[Thror's Ring|a ring]] to King [[Durin III]]<ref>{{S|Rings}}</ref>. <br />
*Some adaptations, such as [[Ralph Bakshi]]'s ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|Lord of the Rings]]'' and [[Peter Jackson]]'s ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' show a similar notion: in both movies the prologue shows that the Elf smiths made the Rings '''for''' the Elves, Dwarves and Men, before Sauron makes war to seize them. Furthermore, in Jackson's adaptation, each group has a distinct visual style (eg. the Seven have a definite "Dwarvish" design).<br />
**Nowhere in Tolkien's books is mentioned that the Seven and the Nine were different from each others nor that they were made for the Dwarves and Men. Everything shows that the Rings were produced massively and were designed by the Elves for themselves. The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception. Only the Three were created distinctly outside the other 16.<ref>FAQ of the Rings: [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ How did the Seven and the Nine differ?] and [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Intent Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men?]</ref> <br />
::The Silmarillion mentions that (besides Durin's Ring) it was Sauron who gave the Rings to the Dwarves and Men, and that was only after the Elves repented.<br />
==[[Buckland]] eventually became part of the [[Shire]]==<br />
*When King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] gave the [[Westmarch]] to the Shire in the [[Fourth Age]], Buckland -an independent sliver of land- was also given to the Shire and was renamed "Eastmarch" to mirror the former.<br />
**This misconception originates from the ''[[The Lord of the Rings Prologue|Prologue]]'' to the ''Lord of the Rings'', and is repeated in several reference books, such as Robert Foster's ''Guide''<ref>[[Robert Foster]], ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "Buckland"</ref> and Fonstad's ''Atlas''.<ref>[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''The Atlas of Middle-earth'', "the Shire"</ref> A second misconception is the name "Eastmarch" which is never mentioned as such in the narrative.<br />
:::Tolkien's actual quote in the ''Prologue'' speaks about "''the East and West Marches: the Buckland''';''' and the Westmarch added to the Shire''".<ref>{{FR|Ordering}}</ref> The semi-colon here serves to show that the "addition to the Shire" refers only to the Westmarch. This is further supported by the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]], where the creation of the Westmarch is mentioned, but not the addition of Buckland or its renaming to Eastmarch.<ref>{{App|B5}}</ref><br />
<br />
{{References}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Debates]]</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:Orcs&diff=234921Talk:Orcs2013-10-21T18:53:03Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
<hr />
<div>The following external links no longer work:<br />
<br />
The Origin of the Orcs (htm version) <br />
The Origin of the Orcs (doc version) <br />
The Origin of the Orcs (pdf version) <br />
<br />
I got: The webpage cannot be found {{unsigned|71.173.181.175}}<br />
<br />
:I solved the problem by deleting it :). It was inappropriate anyway, and the whole article needs to be rewritten. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
::Which article? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::Oh this article. Too much work to be done by 1.5 persons (= I am doing 0.4 of your work and the rest 0.1 belongs to occasional contributors) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
::::I won't be doing much either. Just got an angry email that there was a deadline last week. So I got to focus on that first -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
:::::That's my point... where can we find more contributors? :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)<br />
<br />
I edited the "Orcs and Goblins" section heavily to remove unfounded comments about "goblins" being a Hobbitish term when it is, in fact, an English word. I also cut down on some unfounded claims in the "Controversy" section. [[User:Eldorion|Eldorion]]<br />
<br />
There needs to be a serious section in this article about the culture and ethics of Orcs, and whether Orcs are ultimately free to choose good or evil. I've seen other wikis touch on this issue, but this article barely does. A lot of people (myself included) have never been thrilled about the whole "evil race" concept played completely straight.<br/><br />
As an entirely personal belief (not something I would expect to put in the article), I think Orcs have the ability to live as good [[Avari]], and that it's the established traditions of Orc culture that inspire evil, and that Elves who do evil and ill-inspired acts (such as [[Fëanor]] and [[Sons of Fëanor|his sons]] along with [[Eöl]] and [[Maeglin]]) essentially make themselves Orcs, and that the difference of appearance between Elves and Orcs ("fair" vs. "ugly") is ultimately meaningless. The [[Silmarils]] knew the difference, and they burned evil and corruption when it touched them. I'm not sure Tolkien would completely disagree, as he once said, "We were all Orcs in the Great War." But I digress... - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 12:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I just (4/5/2011) summarized Letter 153 (a very long summary) for the Tolkien Gateway, wherein Tolkien dug very deeply into the metaphysics of Middle-earth. On the subject of Orcs, innate Free Will, their "evil race" status, and such, this letter probably gives Tolkien's "clearest" answers. -- Gamling 01:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC) <br />
<br />
== Origin ==<br />
<br />
I just would like to ask an question in regards to the origin of the orcs. First off I have no preferance either way, be it men or elves, but I would like to raise the point of time. Men awoke at the rising of the sun, so wouldn't this then pose a problem for Melkor when he made the orcs in the first war in Beleriand, for the sake of the elves.? Unless he can time shift and or travel. So then we are left with a rather interesting situation, any thoughts? {{unsigned|GaiusMarius}}<br />
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:Sorry, you've lost me? Do you mean that as Melkor created orcs in opposition to elves he had no "opposite" to men? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: This is not an issue. In Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed (where Tolkien writes at length concerning the cosmology of Arda, and the origins of Orcs), Tolkien shifts the timeline to move the awakening of Men to be not long after that of Elves - during the Great March. This is actually done for other reasons, but serves to enable Men as a legitimate source for Orcs. Sorry for being anon, but I don't feel like signing up for an account. Find me as Túrin at lotrplaza.com if you want. {{unsignedAnon|24.176.44.61}}<br />
<br />
: Sorry, but this is still a GREAT issue, not resolved by just simply changing the timeline. If men awoke at such an early time, it makes no sense that when the Noldor returned to Middle-Earth, Beleriand wasn't full of human kingdoms already, and that men had such a primitive culture. The episode of Finrod being the first Noldo to befriend men would make no sense, for example, neither his special bond with Beor's house (with all the consequences that would have in later tales). A major reworking of the legends would be needed just to fit this version of the origin of the orcs.<br />
<br />
==Etymology and Names==<br />
<br />
JRRT notes the Nandorin word for orcs in PE17 (p. 54) '''''ūriƒ'''''. However, I'm uncertain about how to the render the last letter in the word - the original form of the letter is similar, but does not carry the small horizontal line. Is this a letter of its own, or merely a variant rendering of ƒ? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:There is the "[[wikipedia:Long s|long s]]" ''ſ'' (and [[wikipedia:Esh (letter)|the similar Esh]] ''ʃ''). Do these seem likely? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Many thanks, Mith! It's the Esh (''ʃ'') - could you please add it to the insert box? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 09:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Added both.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:07, 3 July 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Orc - Rohirric or Westron ==<br />
<br />
Quote: "This '''spelling''' was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning - so far as that is known - is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a '''Common Speech''' form of a word or group of similar words should be ork."<br />
<br />
Quote: "Orc. This is supposed to be the '''Common Speech''' name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be '''retained'''."<br />
<br />
Orc, or rather, the spelling of Orc is '''FROM''' Old English in reality, and the word itself was Westron in Middle-earth, '''NOT''' Rohirric, so I conclude.<br />
<br />
It´s not like the other OE-for-Rohirric words in the LotR. Tolkien just '''retained''' this word from Westron, and where he did translate this 3rd age word, he translated it into Modern English.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 06:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I just found the quote for orc being (also?) Rohirric, "Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan."<br />
:I undid my previous edit, and I'm sorry for it, but still I think the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section need to be improved.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 07:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::OK, good.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
Seems like I have to put more source to support my argument.<br />
<br />
"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin ... Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork..." --- The Hobbit<br />
<br />
Still no one try to rewrite the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section?<br />
<br />
== "Gong" redirect link ==<br />
Since the [[Gongs]] have their own article, could it be possible to change the redirect link on [[Gong]] to lead to ''that'' page, instead? [[User:Bauglir100|Bauglir100]] 12:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Done. Although whether Gongs needs a separate article needs to be established, but in the meantime we should be consistent in any case. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Orcs&diff=234888Orcs2013-10-20T17:46:14Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
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<div>{{rewrite}}{{sources}}<br />
{{race<br />
| image=[[File:John Howe - In Mordor.jpg|250px]]<br />
| name= Orcs<br />
| dominions=[[Mordor]], [[Angband]], [[Misty Mountains]], [[Mount Gundabad]], [[Angmar]], [[Utumno]]<br />
| languages= [[Black Speech]]; numerous [[Orkish]] languages of their own<br />
| height= generally around 3 <sup>1</sup>/<sub>2</sub>' or 4',<ref>{{FR|II5}} The ''Huge'' orc-chieftain is described as ''almost man high''</ref><br />
| length=<br />
| skincolor= Sallow, Green, Brown, Grey<br />
| haircolor=<br />
| feathers=<br />
| distinctions= Short, sallow<br />
| lifespan= Unknown, but probably immortal or at least very long lives <ref>{{S|3}}</ref><ref>http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs#Lifespan</ref><br />
| members=[[Othrod]], [[Azog]], [[Bolg]], [[Gorbag]]<br />
}}<br />
'''Orcs''' (also called '''[[Orcs#Orcs and Goblins|Goblins]]''') were the footsoldiers of evil overlords - [[Morgoth]], [[Sauron]] and the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]]. <br />
<br />
==History==<br />
===Origins and early Years===<br />
<br />
The Orcs were bred by [[Morgoth|Melkor]] in mockery of the [[Elves]], sometime during the [[The Darkness#The Great Darkness|Great Darkness]].<ref>{{S|3}}</ref><ref>{{TT|III4}}</ref><br />
<br />
[[File:John Howe - Orc Swordsman.jpg|thumb|200px|right|''Orc Swordsman'' by [[John Howe]]]]<br />
<br />
It is unclear when exactly Orcs were created, but it certainly happened before the [[War for Sake of the Elves]] in his stronghold of Utumno. If the Orcs were at this time a capable fighting force against the host of Valinor is not known. But at least some of them survived this war, probably hidden in the deep vaults of [[Angband]] and multiplied, waiting for their master.<br />
<br />
When Melkor (now known as [[Morgoth]]) returned to Middle-earth he created new hordes of Orcs and invaded [[Beleriand]], where the [[First Battle of Beleriand]] took place. Orcs fought also in [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]].<br />
<br />
===First Age===<br />
Orcs appear in the [[First Age]] as the core force of [[Morgoth]]. Hundreds of thousands of Orcs were bred in [[Angband]] to participate in the [[Battles of Beleriand]], which lasted 587 years.<br />
<br />
Orcs first appear in the [[First Age]] in the [[Battle of the Lammoth]], where they were defeated by [[Fingolfin]] and his [[Noldor]]. Orcs participated in battles such as the [[Dagor Aglareb]], [[Dagor Bragollach]], [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]], [[Fall of the Falas]], and finally in the [[War of Wrath]], where they were almost extinguished. Those that survived the defeat fled eastwards and hid probably in the Mountains of [[Angmar]] and the [[Ered Mithrin]].<br />
<br />
===Second Age===<br />
Around the year {{SA|1000}} Sauron reappeared, took the land of [[Mordor]] as his realm and started the construction of [[Barad-dûr]]. It is likely that most of his servants were Orcs at this time that he had gathered under his command. Still for a long time Sauron's foul servants did not play an important role, for the Dark Lord had chosen a more subtle way to overthrow the free people by creating the [[Rings of Power]].<br />
<br />
During the [[War of the Elves and Sauron]], in {{SA|1700}} Orcs formed the main power of Sauron's host. Despite the immeasurable number of Orcs, Sauron was defeated by the united hosts of Elves and [[Númenóreans]]. Still Sauron was powerful east of the [[Misty Mountains]] and the inlands and the Orcs that inhabited the mountains multiplied.<br />
<br />
The [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] started a war against the [[Dwarves]], resulting in the [[First Sack of Gundabad]] and its occupation by the Orcs. Finally, Orcs were the core force of [[Sauron]] during the [[War of the Last Alliance]], and fought in great battles such as the [[Battle of Dagorlad]] and the [[Siege of Barad-dûr]].<br />
<br />
===Third Age===<br />
[[File:Richard Sullivan - Orc.jpg|thumb|left|''Orc'' by Richard Sullivan]]<br />
During the [[Third Age]], Orcs were the standard troops of the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]] and [[Sauron]] (both in [[Mordor]] and in [[Dol Guldur]]). <br />
<br />
In [[Angmar]], Orcs fought in the [[Angmar War]]. Years later, they invaded [[Eriador]] under the leadership of the [[Necromancer]]. <br />
<br />
The [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]], one of the few (more or less) independent Orcish societies, and their leader [[Azog]] started out the [[War of the Dwarves and Orcs]], and after their defeat they retreated in their caves. They appeared again in {{TA|2941}}, when the [[Battle of Five Armies]] took place.<br />
<br />
The [[Orcs of Mordor]] fought in major battles during the [[War of the Ring]], such as the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]], but the entire [[Mordor]] force was destroyed or scattered at the [[Battle of the Morannon]]. The remainder were hunted down later. <br />
<br />
The Orcs in [[Dol Guldur]] remained in [[Mirkwood]] until the [[Fall of Dol Guldur]], one of the last battles of the War of the Ring.<br />
<br />
===Fourth Age and beyond===<br />
Although the entire force of [[Sauron]] was destroyed after the [[War of the Ring]], it is assumed that many Orcs continued to live beneath the [[Misty Mountains]] and caused little trouble.{{fact}}<br />
<br />
==Characteristics==<br />
<br />
===Culture===<br />
<br />
It is certain all Orcs were dependent on the Dark Lord in various ways: after their leader was defeated, the Orcs were confused and dismayed, and easily scattered by their enemies. In the millennia after Morgoth's defeat and banishment from Arda, they were without a leader and they degenerated to small, quarrelsome tribes hiding in the [[Misty Mountains]]. Only when Sauron returned to power did they begin to reclaim some of their old power. The same happened after Sauron's defeat by the [[Last Alliance of Elves and Men]]: only when Sauron returned as the Necromancer of [[Mirkwood]] did the Orcs become a real danger for Middle-earth again.<br />
<br />
It is interesting to note that to an extent, Tolkien did not regard Orcs as evil in their own right, but only as tools of Melkor and Sauron.<br />
<br />
===Lifespan===<br />
<br />
It is unknown if the Orcs were immortal like the Elves. There is, in any case, a hint for a long livespan in the story of two of the most famous Orc-chieftains: [[Azog]] and [[Bolg]]. Bolg, being the son of Azog, was the chieftain of the Orcs who attacked Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in {{TA|2941}}. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in {{TA|2799}}, so Bolg was aproximately 150 years old.<br />
<br />
===Appearance===<br />
<br />
In Tolkien's writing, Orcs are smaller in stature than Men. One "huge orc-chieftain" is "almost Man-high", but others must have been of a similar size to Hobbits (Frodo and Sam succeeded in disguising themselves as Orcs in Mordor). They had long arms and fanged mouths. Some had black skin. Some had short, crooked legs. They had black blood.{{fact}}<br />
<br />
===Kinds of Orcs===<br />
The Fellowship usually encountered the large soldier-Orcs bred for war, and sometimes the "snaga" variety which were more geared towards being labourers. Another type is referred to as "snufflers", smaller, black-skinned Orcs and wide nostrils, excelling in tracking. Despite the smaller size, one snuffler was able to skilfully kill a soldier-orc when they got into a disagreement.<ref name="Cirith">{{RK|VI1}}</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Snaga]]<br />
*[[Snufflers]]<br />
*[[Orcs of Mordor]]<br />
*[[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]]<br />
*[[Half-Orcs]] (and [[Goblin-men]])<br />
*[[Uruk-hai]]<br />
*[[Hobgoblins]]<br />
<br />
===Orcs and Goblins===<br />
<br />
The term ''goblin'' was used primarily in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' but also in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' where it is used synonymously with "Orc".<ref>{{TT|III1}}</ref><ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 24</ref><br />
<br />
"Goblin" is an English word, whereas "Orcs" is Old English, the language used by Tolkien to represent Rohirric.<ref>{{App|F1iv}}</ref> Thus, there is no difference between Orcs and Goblins.<br />
<br />
The original edition of ''The Hobbit'' and early drafts of ''The Lord of the Rings'' first used "goblin" everywhere and used "[[Hobgoblins|hobgoblin]]" for larger, more evil goblins: when goblins were replaced with Orcs Tolkien invented the term Uruk-hai for his more evil Orcs.<br />
<br />
==Etymology==<br />
===Orc===<br />
The word '''''Orc''''' is said to be the "''form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the [[Rohirric|language of Rohan]]''".<ref name=App|F1iv/><br />
<br />
In his late, post-''Lord of the Rings'' writings, Tolkien preferred the spelling '''''Ork'''''.<ref>{{HM|PM}}</ref> This was evidently mainly to avoid the form ''Orcish'', which would be naturally pronounced with the c as /s/ instead of /k/. (In [[Languages|Tolkien's languages]] the letter ''c'' was always pronounced /k/.) It is also possible that the word is a Common Tongue Version of 'orch', the [[Sindarin]] word for Orc. The original sense of the word seems to be "bogey", "bogeyman", that is, something that provokes fear, as seen in the Quenya cognate ''urko'', pl. ''urqui''.{{fact}}<br />
<br />
Tolkien derived the word ''orc'' from [[Old English]] believing it refers to a kind of evil spirits,<ref name=L144/><ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "[[Gene Wolfe 7 November 1966]]" (letter)</ref> which in turn derives from Latin ''Orcus'' "Hades". He also thought it survives in the modern language for sea-beasts,<ref>{{HM|N}}, p. 762</ref> such as the [[Wikipedia:Orca Whale|Orca Whale]].<br />
<br />
''Orc'' is an [[Old English]] word that refers mainly to a kind of metal cup (from Latin ''Urceus'').<ref group="note">The word ''Orc'' occurs twice in ''[[Beowulf]]''.</ref> However, in a 11th century glossary, this entry was conflated with another entry which refers to evil giants such as ''[[Wikipedia:Jötunn|þyrs]]'' and other monsters, also glossed in Latin as ''Orcus''. This merge of the two entries made many philologists of the previous centuries, like Tolkien, to believe that ''Orc'' was an actual Old English word that refers to any kind of evil creature from the underworld.<ref>Bosworth and Toller's ''An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary'' (1898), corrected in later editions</ref><br />
<br />
The word ''Orcnéas'' is once found only in ''[[Beowulf]]'' (lines 112-113) and is cited as an example of the word "Orc" in Old English text. Actually its meaning is not clear, and it is thought to refer to corpses (''néas'') from the Underworld. <br />
<br />
However, it is also mentioned that the word ''Orc'' is Anglo-Saxon for "Foreigner, Monster, Demon" and was used to refer to the Normans invading the Anglish in 1066.<ref>"[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1329539/ 1066 The Battle for Middle Earth]" 2009 (documentary)</ref><br />
==="Orcs" in Tolkien's languages===<br />
Tolkien said that one of the reason of choosing "Orc" over "Goblin" was the similarity with his fictional languages.<ref name=WJAC>{{WJ|AC}}, pp. 389-91</ref> Indeed most [[Elvish]], [[Mannish]] and other words for Orc, are similar to the English word. <br />
<br />
The basic [[Primitive Quendian]] [[Sundocarme|root]], from which the words for Orc derive, is [[RUKU]] (said to refer to any "bogey" that scared the Elves)<ref name=WJAC/>:<br />
<br />
*[[Quenya]] '''''orco'''''<ref name=PE17_47/> (pl. '''''Orkor'''''<ref>{{GA|27}}, p. 12</ref><ref>{{HM|MR}}, pp. 74, 194</ref>); [[Exilic Quenya]] '''''urko''''' (pl. '''''orkor''''' and '''''orqui''''')<ref name=WJAC/><br />
*[[Sindarin]]: '''''orch'''''/'''''Orch''''' (pl. '''''yrch'''''/'''''Yrch''''', class pl. '''''Orchoth'''''/'''''orchoth'''''<ref group="note">''Orchoth'' is likely a compound of ''orch'' + ''[[hoth]]''.</ref>)<ref name=WJAC/><ref name=L144/><ref name=PE17_52-4/><ref name=PE17_47/><ref name=App|F1iv/>; '''''[[glamhoth]]'''''<br />
*[[Nandorin]]: '''''ūriʃ'''''<ref name=PE17_52-4>{{PE|17}}, pp. 52-4</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Adûnaic]]: '''''urku''''', '''''urkhu'''''<ref name=WJAC/><br />
*[[Westron]]: '''''orka'''''<ref name=PE17_47>{{PE|17}}, p. 47</ref><br />
*[[Black Speech]]: '''''[[Uruk-hai#Etymology|uruk]]'''''<ref name=App|F1iv>{{App|F1iv}}</ref><ref name=WJAC/><ref name=L144>{{L|144}}</ref><ref name=PE17_47/><br />
*[[Khuzdul]]: '''''Rukhs''''' (pl. '''''Rakhās'''''), possibly derived from an unknown [[Avarin]] word of the same meaning<ref name=WJAC/><ref group="note">''Rukhs'' appears to contain the radical R-Kh-S.<!-- this note needs to be clarified: what is a radical? add internal link to something? --></ref><br />
*[[Drúadan language]]: '''''gorgûn''''' ("orc-folk"; the form ''gorgûn'' is perhaps plural of an unknown singular form)<ref name=PE17_99>{{PE|17}}, p. 99</ref><ref>{{RK|V5}}</ref><ref name=WJAC/><br />
<br />
In the earliest versions of [[Qenya]], Tolkien had words such as "'''Ork (orq-)''' pl. '''Orqi''' and fem. "'''orqindi'''".{{fact}}<br />
<br />
In [[Noldorin]], the earlier version of Sindarin, the word for Orc is the same: ''orch'' (pl ''yrch'').<ref name=LR379>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 379 (entry for ÓROK)</ref><ref>{{MR|P3I7}}, p. 195</ref><ref>{{MC|Secret}}, p. 217</ref> The [[Gnomish]] word for "one of a tribe of the orcs. a goblin" is said to be '''''Gong'''''.<ref>{{PE|11}}, p. 41</ref><br />
<br />
*''See also: [[Entish]] ''[[burárum]]''<br />
===Goblin===<br />
''[[Wiktionary:Goblin|Goblin]]'' is a folk word which according to ''The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English'' is probably derived from the Anglo-French ''[[Wiktionary:gobelin|gobelin]]'' a diminutive of ''gobel'' (cf. ''[[Wiktionary:kobold|kobold]]''). William D.B. Loos notes that ''goblin'' is a Romance-derived word, unlike other Germanic words preferred by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]].<ref>William D.B. Loos, [http://tolkien.slimy.com/tfaq/EnemyMisc.html#Orcs Enemies and Miscellaneous: What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?] at [http://tolkien.slimy.com/tfaq/ The Tolkien Frequently Asked Questions List] (accessed 3 July 2011)</ref><br />
<br />
==="Goblin" in Tolkien's languages===<br />
<br />
In the [[The Etymologies|''Etymologies'']], the Elvish names used to translate "goblin" derive from root [[RUKU#Other versions|ÓROK]] and are:<ref name=LR379>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 379 (entry for ÓROK)</ref><br />
<br />
*[[Quenya]]: '''''orko''''' (pl. '''''orqi''''')<br />
*[[Noldorin]]: ''orch'' (pl ''yrch'', archaic ''yrchy''<ref>{{VT|46a}}, p. 7</ref>)<br />
*[[Nandorin|Danian]]: '''''urc''''' (pl. '''''yrc''''')<br />
*[[Doriathrin]]: '''''urch''''' (pl. '''''urchin''''')<br />
<br />
In an early linguistic writing, Tolkien translated the [[Gnomish]] word ''Gong'' as "one of a tribe of the orcs. a goblin."<ref>{{PE|11}}, p. 41</ref><br />
<br />
==Other Versions of the Legendarium===<br />
<br />
===Origin===<br />
According to the oldest "theory" proposed by Tolkien, Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth. But, Tolkien later changed the legendarium so that Morgoth could no longer produce life on his own.<br />
<br />
While Tolkien originally saw all Orcs as descended from tortured Elves, later comments of his indicate, according to [[Christopher Tolkien]] in ''Morgoth's Ring'' ("Myths Transformed, text X"), that he began to feel uncomfortable with the theory that orcs were descending from Elves. However, Tolkien died before he could complete his upheaval of the cosmology, and in the published version of ''The Silmarillion'', the Elf origin of Orcs was adopted. It does not appear that the elder Tolkien ever decided on a definitive answer. Different origins proposed were: animals that Morgoth infused with reason (Myths Transformed, text VIII), Elves and (later) Men (M.T.,text IX) and "probably" Men (text X).<br />
<br />
The origin of Orcs is an open question. In Tolkien's writings, evil is not capable of independent creation, making it unlikely that the [[Valar|Vala]] [[Morgoth|Melkor]], who was obviously the first to produce them, could do that ''ex nihilo''. In ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' is mentioned that the Orcs were transformed from Elves &mdash; the purest form of life on [[Arda]] (the Earth) &mdash; by means of torture and mutilation; and this "theory" would then become the most popular. There are hints in the ''[[The History of Middle-earth|History of Middle-earth]]'' series of books, (especially in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'' in the section "Myths Transformed"), that some Orc leaders, such as the First Age's [[Boldog]], or the [[Great Goblin]] encountered by [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and the Dwarves, may in fact have been fallen [[Maiar]] which had taken Orc form.<br />
<br />
Yet other Orcs may have begun as animals of vaguely humanoid shapes, empowered by the will of the Dark Lord (first [[Morgoth]], later Sauron): this may explain the references to their "beaks and feathers"{{fact}} in Tolkien's writings.<br />
<br />
: ''The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (&#8230;).'' ('Morgoth's Ring', "Myths transformed", text VIII')<br />
<br />
==Controversy==<br />
Tolkien's Orcs have ''allegedly'' been a subject of criticism of [[racism]]. Tolkien described Orcs as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".<ref>{{L|210}}</ref> <br />
==Other writings==<br />
In ''[[The Letters of Father Christmas]]'', goblins appear as the enemies of [[Father Christmas]] and the [[Red Elves]].<br />
==Portrayal in Adaptations==<br />
===Orcs===<br />
{{stub}}[[File:The Lord of the Rings War in the North - Orc3.jpg|250px|thumb|An '''Orc''' in [[Fornost]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''.]]==<br />
'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''<br />
:Orc-kind is a genus that include the species of Orc, Goblins, [[Half-orcs]], [[Boggarts]], [[Bugans]] and [[Uruk-hai]].<br />
<br />
:Orcs are very common in Middle-earth. They are about the size of a man with a hunchback.<br />
<br />
''''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''<br />
:Orcs are first seen in [[Fornost]], where they immediately attack [[Eradan (video game character)|Eradan]], [[Andriel]] and [[Farin (video game character)|Farin]] on their aproach.<ref>[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]], Chapter 1: Fornost, ''Main Gate''</ref> ''Orc wariors'' are stronger then normal Orcs. Some Orcs have been taught [[Magic|sorcery]] by [[Agandaûr]], these are known as ''Orc Sorcerers''.<br />
<br />
===Goblins===<br />
[[File:The Lord of the Rings War in the North - Goblins1.jpg|250px|thumb|'''Goblins''' in the pits of [[Fornost]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''.]]'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring]]'':'''<br />
:Goblins have been made clearly distinct from Orcs.<br />
<br />
'''2006: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'':'''<br />
:Goblins have been made clearly distinct from Orcs.<br />
<br />
'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''<br />
:Goblins are a separate race and can be found in [[Evendim]], [[the Shire]], [[Ered Luin]], [[Bree-land]], [[Lone-lands|Lone lands]], [[North Downs]], [[Misty Mountains]], [[Angmar]] and [[Moria]]. They are small in stature; a little shorter than [[Hobbits]]. In contrast, Orcs are about the size of [[Men]]. Goblins are also weaker than the orcs.<br />
<br />
'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''<br />
:Goblins first appear in [[Fornost]], where they attack [[Eradan (video game character)|Eradan]], [[Andriel]] and [[Farin (video game character)|Farin]] immediately when they reach the city.<ref>[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]], Chapter 1: Fornost, ''Main Gate''</ref> Goblins are weaker than Orcs.<br />
<br />
==See also==<br />
*[[Gongs]]<br />
*[[:Category:Images of Orcs|Images of Orcs]]<br />
*[[:Category:Images of Goblins|Images of Goblins]]<br />
<br />
{{references|note}}<br />
[[Category:Orcs| ]]<br />
[[Category:Races]]<br />
[[de:Orks]]<br />
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/orques/orques]]<br />
[[fi:Örkit]]</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Misconceptions&diff=234886Misconceptions2013-10-20T17:19:12Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Misconceptions''' have arisen and circulated over numerous concepts within [[J.R.R. Tolkien|J.R.R. Tolkien's]] [[legendarium]] as a result of mistakes made by secondary authors and of changes made by adaptations.<br />
<br />
==Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"==<br />
*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.<br />
**Although at some points referred to the "Years of the Sun", Tolkien never described the Four Ages as being linked to the Sun; or the [[First Age]] beginning with the first rising of the Sun. As [[Robert Foster]] observes, ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' is not clear about when the First Age begun, which could have been at the [[Awakening of the Elves]] or the creation of [[Arda]].<ref>[[Robert Foster]], ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "First Age"</ref><br>The misconception must have originated with the [[fanon]] dating of the First Age from the rising of the Sun onwards, although Foster admitted it was only a convention, as before that point the years can't be calculated.<ref>Foster, ''Guide'', Appendix A</ref> The "Ages of the Sun" has been repeated often in reference works such as in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable (as by Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen<ref>{{webcite|<br />
author=Steuard Jensen|articleurl=http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/DayBooks.html|articlename=Notes on David Day's Tolkien Books|dated=|website=Tolkien metaFAQ|accessed=}}</ref>) while [[Michael Martinez]] refers to the "First Age of the Sun" in ''[[Parma Endorion]]''.<br />
<br />
==The Arkenstone was a Silmaril==<br />
*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Lonely Mountain|Erebor]]. Tolkien wrote that the two lost Silmarils would remain lost until the end of Arda. However, in a partial translation of early Silmarillion texts into Old English Tolkien used the etymologically related term 'Eorclanstanas' ('holy stones') to translate 'Silmarils' - suggesting that he may have borrowed the name and other concepts from the Silmarils in describing the Arkenstone.<br />
<br />
==Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves== <br />
*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth. <br />
**This concept derives from being the youngest Elf whose birth is mentioned in the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]], and perhaps from publicity for the films; but is never stated in the films or the books.<br />
<br />
==Legolas' age==<br />
*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in {{TA|87}}. <br />
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' {{TA|2931}}. The date of {{TA|87}} for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. Tolkien never wrote about Legolas' birthdate.<br />
<br />
==Legolas' hair color==<br />
*Legolas is blond.<br />
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|animated]] and [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].<br />
<br />
==Names of the Nazgûl==<br />
*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman. <br />
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Nazgûl|Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).<br />
<br />
It should be also noted that Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict the idea that one of the Nazgûl was a woman, with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' shows all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].<br />
<br />
==The War in the North==<br />
*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]]. <br />
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the computer games ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'' and ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The War in the North]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].<br />
<br />
==Hobbit feet==<br />
*Hobbits have comparatively large, hairy feet. <br />
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". Besides the hair, Tolkien doesn't mention that the size of their feet is disproportionally large; they are portrayed so in several adaptations, such as illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] and the movies, where the feet are actually prosthetics. <br />
<br />
==Déagol/Sméagol relationship==<br />
*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.<br />
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This misconception probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]].<ref>[http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]</ref><br />
<br />
==Gollum's age==<br />
*Sméagol was born in the year {{TA|2430|n}} of the Third Age, found the Ring on his 33rd birthday in {{TA|2463|n}}, and thus was 589 years old when he died in {{TA|3019|n}}.<br />
**33 is the age a Shire Hobbit becomes officially an adult. Sméagol "found" the Ring on his birthday. The filmmakers evidently decided that the day Sméagol found the Ring was his 33rd birthday. However: Sméagol was not a Shire Hobbit, but a Stoor, and these had different customs - Tolkien states that the Stoors of Rhovanion received, and did not give gifts on their birthdays (in ''Unfinished Tales'', ''The History of Middle-earth'' and ''Letters''); and {{TA|2463}} as the date of the discovery of the Ring is an approximate, not a precise date. Thus, there is no exact indication of Gollum's age in Tolkien's books. [http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html See http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html]<!--Borrowed from Gollum talk page on Wikipedia--><br />
<br />
==Tengwar on Sting==<br />
*The [[Sindarin]] words ''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im'' are engraved on the blade of [[Sting]]. The worlds translate as "Maegnas (Sharp-point) is my name, I am the spider's bane".<br />
*The origin of this inscription is the depiction in the movies. In the books, Tolkien describes Sting as a rather plain weapon with a simple leather sheath. Unlike [[Glamdring]] and [[Orcrist]], it bears no runes for [[Elrond]] to translate in ''[[The Hobbit]]''. It first receives a name from [[Bilbo Baggins]] after he uses it against the giant spiders of [[Mirkwood]].<br />
<br />
==Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai==<br />
Saruman is believed to be the creator of the race of [[Uruk-hai]] (Uruks), the larger, stronger breed of [[Orcs]]. This is visualized in [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (film series)]] which further established this view. The movie also established wrongly that "Uruk-hai" are a stronger race of Orcs, while in reality it is simply a [[Black Speech]] term for the Orcs proper themselves (excluding the [[Snaga]]).<br />
<br />
In reality, the Uruks first appeared out of [[Mordor]] in the last years of Steward [[Denethor I]], before {{TA|2475}} and before Saruman settles in [[Orthanc]]<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref>. <br />
<br />
The misconception originates from the fact that Saruman perhaps created a race of Orc-men or Men-Orcs in his service<ref>http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Urukhai</ref>. However these aren't the same as the Uruk-hai.<br />
<br />
== Dorwinion ==<br />
*[[Dorwinion]] was only mentioned in passing until it appeared on [[Pauline Baynes]]' [[1969]] map, where it was placed on the western shore of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. According to popular belief, its location was not decided by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]], but by Baynes in random.<br />
**As [[Michael Martinez]] notes, this is a misconception that circulates as an "urban legend" in several websites<ref>[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/06/21/did-pauline-baynes-choose-the-location-of-dorwinion/ Did Pauline Baynes Choose the Location of Dorwinion?]</ref>. As [[Christopher Tolkien]] commented: <br />
:{{blockquote|Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, '''was communicated to her by my father''', but its placing seems surprising.|<ref>{{LB|Hurin}}</ref>}}<br />
<br />
==Money==<br />
*It is thought that Middle-earth is a utopia with no finance based economy.<br />
**This misconception is mentioned as such by [[Robert Foster]]<ref>''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "Money"</ref>. It originates from the very few times any transactions or the word "[[money]]" are mentioned in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' or ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''; most mentions of wealth are vague or in the form of [[gold]] or treasures. However in [[Bree]] both golden pieces and silver pennies appear. Furthermore, in a draft of "[[The Appendix on Languages]]" published in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'' some details of the coins of [[Gondor]] are given.<br />
<br />
==Gwaihir is the Great Eagle==<br />
*The (unnamed) [[Lord of the Eagles]] from ''The Hobbit'' is identified in the ''Lord of the Rings'' as [[Gwaihir]], as they are the same person.<br />
**This interpretation is stated by [[Robert Foster]]<ref>''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' entry "Gwaihir"</ref> and perhaps originates from the meaning of Gwaihir's name, which translates as "Windlord". However Tolkien never states that Gwaihir was the [[Lord of the Eagles]] and [[King of All Birds]]. Furthermore there are some problems with conflating the two characters:<br />
***The Great Eagle of ''The Hobbit'' is said to wear a golden crown<ref>{{H|Queer}}</ref> after the end of the book, but Gwaihir is not wearing one.<br />
***Near the end of ''Lord of the Rings'' Gandalf mentions that Gwaihir has carried him ''twice'' <ref>{{RK|Cormallen}}</ref> (once from [[Orthanc]] and once from [[Celebdil]]); if Gwaihir was the Great Eagle, that would make it at least ''three'' times.<br />
<br />
==Gil-galad's father==<br />
*[[Fingon]] was Gil-galad's father<br />
**Not really a misconception as it was at one point considered so by Tolkien, as in ''[[The Grey Annals]]'', and it is mentioned so in ''[[The Silmarillion]]''. However [[Christopher Tolkien]] admitted that it was a rushed choice as in his father's final scripts ''[[Orodreth]]'' was Gil-galad's father, and Fingon had no wife: even in ''The Silmarillion'', Fingon was succeeded by [[Turgon]] as [[High King of the Noldor]] instead of his "son".<br />
<br />
==Orodreth's father==<br />
*[[Finarfin]] was Orodreth's father<br />
**As with the above case, not really a misconception, as much as an abandoned idea. In the final text of "The Coming of the Elves"<ref>{{Morgoth's Ring: Later Quenta}}</ref> Orodreth was removed from among the sons of Finarfin. And later, in the essay "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", he's explicitly mentioned as the son of Angrod.<br />
<br />
==Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe awoke at Cuiviénen==<br />
*[[Ingwe]], [[Finwe]] and [[Elwe]], the three ambassadors of the Elves to [[Aman]], and later Kings of their people, were among the first 144 Elves who [[awakening of the Elves|awoke]] at [[Cuiviénen]].<br />
**''[[The Silmarillion]]'' only says that [[Orome]] visited the Elves at Cuiviénen but does not clarify whether the Three Ambassadors were indeed firstborn. According to the [[Grey Annals]], Orome found the Elves 500 [[coranar|years]] after the Awakening, a gap which would leave ample time for the firstborn Elves to procreate and for Elven children to be born and grow. Nothing states that the three Ambassadors could not have been born during that time, thus belonging to a second or third generation of Elves.<br />
**Furthermore, the Silmarillion is clear that Elwe, [[Olwe]] (and [[Elmo]]) were brothers, and that Olwe was younger than Elwe. This can't be easily understood if Elwe was a Firstborn (i.e. without parents). The [[Cuivienyarna]] mentions that Elwe was ''born'' at Cuiviénen.<ref>{{WJ|Appendix}}</ref><br />
<br />
==[[Middle-earth]] is an underground world similar to the Hollow Earth==<br />
*Middle-earth is a world that exists inside the Earth. Tolkien's stories are a kind of [[Wikipedia:Subterranean fiction|Subterranean fiction]] as they happen underground, at the center of the Hollow Earth.<ref>[http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1714 Example article] in a Greek occult forum</ref><br />
**The misconception circulates mainly among the Greek audience and is explained by the Greek translation "[http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%AD%CF%83%CE%B7_%CE%93%CE%B7 Μέση-γη]". Although the translation is accurate, the stem "μέσ-" can also be understood as ''inside'' by the occasional reader. The notion was popularised mainly by the Greek press, especially concerned with the occult or the paranormal. Those sources leave open the possibility that Tolkien possessed some esoteric or occult knowledge, whereas the fantasy [[races]] of Middle-earth are identified as the beings said to populate [[Wikipedia:Agartha|Agartha]].<br />
**It is made clear in the ''Silmarillion'' that the Earth is called ''Arda'' floating in space with atmospheric layers such as [[Ilmen]], [[Vaiya]] and [[Vista]]; and Middle-earth is a continent.<ref>{{S|Ainu}}</ref> The term Middle-earth refers to "our earth" and is explained geographically as "surrounded by the ocean"<ref>[[Dennis Gerrolt]], [http://www.lordotrings.com/interview.asp Tolkien's interview] to BBC, 1971</ref> and not being inside something.<br />
==The [[Seven Rings]] were made for the Dwarves and the [[Nine Rings]] for Men==<br />
*The Elves of [[Eregion]] made specifically [[Seven Rings]] especially for the Dwarves, and [[Nine Rings]] for the Men. Occasionally it is believed that each group had its own powers to be used accordingly by Elves, Dwarves and Men. The [[Ring Verse]] ("...'''for''' the Elven-kings, ...'''for''' the Dwarf-Lords") indicates their purpose and destination as when [[Celebrimbor]] himself gave [[Thror's Ring|a ring]] to King [[Durin III]]<ref>{{S|Rings}}</ref>. <br />
*Some adaptations, such as [[Ralph Bakshi]]'s ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|Lord of the Rings]]'' and [[Peter Jackson]]'s ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' show a similar notion: in both movies the prologue shows that the Elf smiths made the Rings '''for''' the Elves, Dwarves and Men, before Sauron makes war to seize them. Furthermore, in Jackson's adaptation, each group has a distinct visual style (eg. the Seven have a definite "Dwarvish" design).<br />
**Nowhere in Tolkien's books is mentioned that the Seven and the Nine were different from each others nor that they were made for the Dwarves and Men. Everything shows that the Rings were produced massively and were designed by the Elves for themselves. The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception. Only the Three were created distinctly outside the other 16.<ref>FAQ of the Rings: [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ How did the Seven and the Nine differ?] and [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Intent Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men?]</ref> <br />
::The Silmarillion mentions that (besides Durin's Ring) it was Sauron who gave the Rings to the Dwarves and Men, and that was only after the Elves repented.<br />
==[[Buckland]] eventually became part of the [[Shire]]==<br />
*When King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] gave the [[Westmarch]] to the Shire in the [[Fourth Age]], Buckland -an independent sliver of land- was also given to the Shire and was renamed "Eastmarch" to mirror the former.<br />
**This misconception originates from the ''[[The Lord of the Rings Prologue|Prologue]]'' to the ''Lord of the Rings'', and is repeated in several reference books, such as Robert Foster's ''Guide''<ref>[[Robert Foster]], ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "Buckland"</ref> and Fonstad's ''Atlas''.<ref>[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''The Atlas of Middle-earth'', "the Shire"</ref> A second misconception is the name "Eastmarch" which is never mentioned as such in the narrative.<br />
:::Tolkien's actual quote in the ''Prologue'' speaks about "''the East and West Marches: the Buckland''';''' and the Westmarch added to the Shire''".<ref>{{FR|Ordering}}</ref> The semi-colon here serves to show that the "addition to the Shire" refers only to the Westmarch. This is further supported by the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]], where the creation of the Westmarch is mentioned, but not the addition of Buckland or its renaming to Eastmarch.<ref>{{App|B5}}</ref><br />
<br />
{{References}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Debates]]</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Misconceptions&diff=234885Misconceptions2013-10-20T17:15:56Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''Misconceptions''' have arisen and circulated over numerous concepts within [[J.R.R. Tolkien|J.R.R. Tolkien's]] [[legendarium]] as a result of mistakes made by secondary authors and of changes made by adaptations.<br />
<br />
==Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"==<br />
*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.<br />
**Although at some points referred to the "Years of the Sun", Tolkien never described the Four Ages as being linked to the Sun; or the [[First Age]] beginning with the first rising of the Sun. As [[Robert Foster]] observes, ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' is not clear about when the First Age begun, which could have been at the [[Awakening of the Elves]] or the creation of [[Arda]].<ref>[[Robert Foster]], ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "First Age"</ref><br>The misconception must have originated with the [[fanon]] dating of the First Age from the rising of the Sun onwards, although Foster admitted it was only a convention, as before that point the years can't be calculated.<ref>Foster, ''Guide'', Appendix A</ref> The "Ages of the Sun" has been repeated often in reference works such as in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable (as by Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen<ref>{{webcite|<br />
author=Steuard Jensen|articleurl=http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/DayBooks.html|articlename=Notes on David Day's Tolkien Books|dated=|website=Tolkien metaFAQ|accessed=}}</ref>) while [[Michael Martinez]] refers to the "First Age of the Sun" in ''[[Parma Endorion]]''.<br />
<br />
==The Arkenstone was a Silmaril==<br />
*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Lonely Mountain|Erebor]]. Tolkien wrote that the two lost Silmarils would remain lost until the end of Arda. However, in a partial translation of early Silmarillion texts into Old English Tolkien used the etymologically related term 'Eorclanstanas' ('holy stones') to translate 'Silmarils' - suggesting that he may have borrowed the name and other concepts from the Silmarils in describing the Arkenstone.<br />
<br />
==Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves== <br />
*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth. <br />
**This concept derives from being the youngest Elf whose birth is mentioned in the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]], and perhaps from publicity for the films; but is never stated in the films or the books.<br />
<br />
==Legolas' age==<br />
*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in {{TA|87}}. <br />
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' {{TA|2931}}. The date of {{TA|87}} for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. Tolkien never wrote about Legolas' birthdate.<br />
<br />
==Legolas' hair color==<br />
*Legolas is blond.<br />
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|animated]] and [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].<br />
<br />
==Names of the Nazgûl==<br />
*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman. <br />
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Nazgûl|Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).<br />
<br />
It should be also noted that Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict the idea that one of the Nazgûl was a woman, with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' shows all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].<br />
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==The War in the North==<br />
*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]]. <br />
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the computer games ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'' and ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The War in the North]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].<br />
<br />
==Hobbit feet==<br />
*Hobbits have comparatively large, hairy feet. <br />
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". Besides the hair, Tolkien doesn't mention that the size of their feet is disproportionally large; they are portrayed so in several adaptations, such as illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] and the movies, where the feet are actually prosthetics. <br />
<br />
==Déagol/Sméagol relationship==<br />
*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.<br />
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This misconception probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]].<ref>[http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]</ref><br />
<br />
==Gollum's age==<br />
*Sméagol was born in the year {{TA|2430|n}} of the Third Age, found the Ring on his 33rd birthday in {{TA|2463|n}}, and thus was 589 years old when he died in {{TA|3019|n}}.<br />
**33 is the age a Shire Hobbit becomes officially an adult. Sméagol "found" the Ring on his birthday. The filmmakers evidently decided that the day Sméagol found the Ring was his 33rd birthday. However: Sméagol was not a Shire Hobbit, but a Stoor, and these had different customs - Tolkien states that the Stoors of Rhovanion received, and did not give gifts on their birthdays (in ''Unfinished Tales'', ''The History of Middle-earth'' and ''Letters''); and {{TA|2463}} as the date of the discovery of the Ring is an approximate, not a precise date. Thus, there is no exact indication of Gollum's age in Tolkien's books. [http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html See http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html]<!--Borrowed from Gollum talk page on Wikipedia--><br />
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==Tengwar on Sting==<br />
*The [[Sindarin]] words ''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im'' are engraved on the blade of [[Sting]]. The worlds translate as "Maegnas (Sharp-point) is my name, I am the spider's bane".<br />
*The origin of this inscription is the depiction in the movies. In the books, Tolkien describes Sting as a rather plain weapon with a simple leather sheath. Unlike [[Glamdring]] and [[Orcrist]], it bears no runes for [[Elrond]] to translate in ''[[The Hobbit]]''. It first receives a name from [[Bilbo Baggins]] after he uses it against the giant spiders of [[Mirkwood]].<br />
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==Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai==<br />
Saruman is believed to be the creator of the race of [[Uruk-hai]] (Uruks), the larger, stronger breed of [[Orcs]]. This is visualized in [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (film series)]] which further established this view. The movie also established wrongly that "Uruk-hai" are a stronger race of Orcs, while in reality it is simply a [[Black Speech]] term for the Orcs proper themselves (excluding the [[Snaga]]).<br />
<br />
In reality, the Uruks first appeared out of [[Mordor]] in the last years of Steward [[Denethor I]], before {{TA|2475}} and before Saruman settles in [[Orthanc]]<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref>. <br />
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The misconception originates from the fact that Saruman perhaps created a race of Orc-men or Men-Orcs in his service<ref>http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/Creatures.html#Urukhai</ref>. However these aren't the same as the Uruk-hai.<br />
<br />
== Dorwinion ==<br />
*[[Dorwinion]] was only mentioned in passing until it appeared on [[Pauline Baynes]]' [[1969]] map, where it was placed on the western shore of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. According to popular belief, its location was not decided by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]], but by Baynes in random.<br />
**As [[Michael Martinez]] notes, this is a misconception that circulates as an "urban legend" in several websites<ref>[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/06/21/did-pauline-baynes-choose-the-location-of-dorwinion/ Did Pauline Baynes Choose the Location of Dorwinion?]</ref>. As [[Christopher Tolkien]] commented: <br />
:{{blockquote|Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, '''was communicated to her by my father''', but its placing seems surprising.|<ref>{{LB|Hurin}}</ref>}}<br />
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==Money==<br />
*It is thought that Middle-earth is a utopia with no finance based economy.<br />
**This misconception is mentioned as such by [[Robert Foster]]<ref>''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "Money"</ref>. It originates from the very few times any transactions or the word "[[money]]" are mentioned in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' or ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''; most mentions of wealth are vague or in the form of [[gold]] or treasures. However in [[Bree]] both golden pieces and silver pennies appear. Furthermore, in a draft of "[[The Appendix on Languages]]" published in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'' some details of the coins of [[Gondor]] are given.<br />
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==Gwaihir is the Great Eagle==<br />
*The (unnamed) [[Lord of the Eagles]] from ''The Hobbit'' is identified in the ''Lord of the Rings'' as [[Gwaihir]], as they are the same person.<br />
**This interpretation is stated by [[Robert Foster]]<ref>''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' entry "Gwaihir"</ref> and perhaps originates from the meaning of Gwaihir's name, which translates as "Windlord". However Tolkien never states that Gwaihir was the [[Lord of the Eagles]] and [[King of All Birds]]. Furthermore there are some problems with conflating the two characters:<br />
***The Great Eagle of ''The Hobbit'' is said to wear a golden crown<ref>{{H|Queer}}</ref> after the end of the book, but Gwaihir is not wearing one.<br />
***Near the end of ''Lord of the Rings'' Gandalf mentions that Gwaihir has carried him ''twice'' <ref>{{RK|Cormallen}}</ref> (once from [[Orthanc]] and once from [[Celebdil]]); if Gwaihir was the Great Eagle, that would make it at least ''three'' times.<br />
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==Gil-galad's father==<br />
*[[Fingon]] was Gil-galad's father<br />
**Not really a misconception as it was at one point considered so by Tolkien, as in ''[[The Grey Annals]]'', and it is mentioned so in ''[[The Silmarillion]]''. However [[Christopher Tolkien]] admitted that it was a rushed choice as in his father's final scripts ''[[Orodreth]]'' was Gil-galad's father, and Fingon had no wife: even in ''The Silmarillion'', Fingon was succeeded by [[Turgon]] as [[High King of the Noldor]] instead of his "son".<br />
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==Orodreth's father==<br />
*[[Finarfin]] was Orodreth's father<br />
**As with the above case, not really a misconception, as much as an abandoned idea. In the final text of "The Coming of the Elves"<br />
<ref>{{Morgoth's Ring: Later Quenta}}</ref> Orodreth was removed from among the sons of Finarfin. And later, in the essay "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", he's explicitly mentioned as the son of Angrod.<br />
<br />
==Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe awoke at Cuiviénen==<br />
*[[Ingwe]], [[Finwe]] and [[Elwe]], the three ambassadors of the Elves to [[Aman]], and later Kings of their people, were among the first 144 Elves who [[awakening of the Elves|awoke]] at [[Cuiviénen]].<br />
**''[[The Silmarillion]]'' only says that [[Orome]] visited the Elves at Cuiviénen but does not clarify whether the Three Ambassadors were indeed firstborn. According to the [[Grey Annals]], Orome found the Elves 500 [[coranar|years]] after the Awakening, a gap which would leave ample time for the firstborn Elves to procreate and for Elven children to be born and grow. Nothing states that the three Ambassadors could not have been born during that time, thus belonging to a second or third generation of Elves.<br />
**Furthermore, the Silmarillion is clear that Elwe, [[Olwe]] (and [[Elmo]]) were brothers, and that Olwe was younger than Elwe. This can't be easily understood if Elwe was a Firstborn (i.e. without parents). The [[Cuivienyarna]] mentions that Elwe was ''born'' at Cuiviénen.<ref>{{WJ|Appendix}}</ref><br />
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==[[Middle-earth]] is an underground world similar to the Hollow Earth==<br />
*Middle-earth is a world that exists inside the Earth. Tolkien's stories are a kind of [[Wikipedia:Subterranean fiction|Subterranean fiction]] as they happen underground, at the center of the Hollow Earth.<ref>[http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1714 Example article] in a Greek occult forum</ref><br />
**The misconception circulates mainly among the Greek audience and is explained by the Greek translation "[http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%AD%CF%83%CE%B7_%CE%93%CE%B7 Μέση-γη]". Although the translation is accurate, the stem "μέσ-" can also be understood as ''inside'' by the occasional reader. The notion was popularised mainly by the Greek press, especially concerned with the occult or the paranormal. Those sources leave open the possibility that Tolkien possessed some esoteric or occult knowledge, whereas the fantasy [[races]] of Middle-earth are identified as the beings said to populate [[Wikipedia:Agartha|Agartha]].<br />
**It is made clear in the ''Silmarillion'' that the Earth is called ''Arda'' floating in space with atmospheric layers such as [[Ilmen]], [[Vaiya]] and [[Vista]]; and Middle-earth is a continent.<ref>{{S|Ainu}}</ref> The term Middle-earth refers to "our earth" and is explained geographically as "surrounded by the ocean"<ref>[[Dennis Gerrolt]], [http://www.lordotrings.com/interview.asp Tolkien's interview] to BBC, 1971</ref> and not being inside something.<br />
==The [[Seven Rings]] were made for the Dwarves and the [[Nine Rings]] for Men==<br />
*The Elves of [[Eregion]] made specifically [[Seven Rings]] especially for the Dwarves, and [[Nine Rings]] for the Men. Occasionally it is believed that each group had its own powers to be used accordingly by Elves, Dwarves and Men. The [[Ring Verse]] ("...'''for''' the Elven-kings, ...'''for''' the Dwarf-Lords") indicates their purpose and destination as when [[Celebrimbor]] himself gave [[Thror's Ring|a ring]] to King [[Durin III]]<ref>{{S|Rings}}</ref>. <br />
*Some adaptations, such as [[Ralph Bakshi]]'s ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|Lord of the Rings]]'' and [[Peter Jackson]]'s ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' show a similar notion: in both movies the prologue shows that the Elf smiths made the Rings '''for''' the Elves, Dwarves and Men, before Sauron makes war to seize them. Furthermore, in Jackson's adaptation, each group has a distinct visual style (eg. the Seven have a definite "Dwarvish" design).<br />
**Nowhere in Tolkien's books is mentioned that the Seven and the Nine were different from each others nor that they were made for the Dwarves and Men. Everything shows that the Rings were produced massively and were designed by the Elves for themselves. The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception. Only the Three were created distinctly outside the other 16.<ref>FAQ of the Rings: [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Differ How did the Seven and the Nine differ?] and [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Intent Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men?]</ref> <br />
::The Silmarillion mentions that (besides Durin's Ring) it was Sauron who gave the Rings to the Dwarves and Men, and that was only after the Elves repented.<br />
==[[Buckland]] eventually became part of the [[Shire]]==<br />
*When King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] gave the [[Westmarch]] to the Shire in the [[Fourth Age]], Buckland -an independent sliver of land- was also given to the Shire and was renamed "Eastmarch" to mirror the former.<br />
**This misconception originates from the ''[[The Lord of the Rings Prologue|Prologue]]'' to the ''Lord of the Rings'', and is repeated in several reference books, such as Robert Foster's ''Guide''<ref>[[Robert Foster]], ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'', entry "Buckland"</ref> and Fonstad's ''Atlas''.<ref>[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''The Atlas of Middle-earth'', "the Shire"</ref> A second misconception is the name "Eastmarch" which is never mentioned as such in the narrative.<br />
:::Tolkien's actual quote in the ''Prologue'' speaks about "''the East and West Marches: the Buckland''';''' and the Westmarch added to the Shire''".<ref>{{FR|Ordering}}</ref> The semi-colon here serves to show that the "addition to the Shire" refers only to the Westmarch. This is further supported by the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]], where the creation of the Westmarch is mentioned, but not the addition of Buckland or its renaming to Eastmarch.<ref>{{App|B5}}</ref><br />
<br />
{{References}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Debates]]</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion&diff=233919Round World version of the Silmarillion2013-10-02T23:42:37Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
<hr />
<div>The '''Round World''' version is one of the variants of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s [[Legendarium]], published in the final volumes of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]''. In this version, the setting of his legendarium is more realistic and less mythological: the Earth was always round, and [[Arda]] was the name for the whole solar system instead of just the Earth. <br />
<br />
In the Round World version the [[Sun]] and the [[Moon]] were not the fruit of the [[Two Trees of Valinor|Two Trees]], but actually preceded their creation. The significance of the Trees and the [[Silmarils]] was that they preserved the light of the Sun before it was tainted by [[Morgoth|Melkor]] when he ravished [[Arien]].<br />
<br />
Similarly, the [[stars]] were not created with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], but the occulting clouds were removed to reveal them.<br />
<br />
While this version emerged in the late stage of Tokien's legendarium, he never entirely decided which version—Flat or Round—to choose as 'real', and while Tolkien was eventually more inclined to use the realistic version, it was never as complete as the Flat World version, and so the latter was chosen by [[Christopher Tolkien]] for the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]''.<ref>{{MR|Myths}}</ref><br />
It may be noted, however, that in the final version of the Ainulindalë Tolkien returned to the flat-world model, after having written a round-world version of this story <ref> J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part One. Ainulindalë"</ref>. Likewise, the later "Annals of Aman" and "Grey Annals" explicitly mention the creation of the Sun and Moon after the destruction of the Trees <ref> J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Two. Annals of Aman"</ref><ref> J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals"</ref><br />
<br />
The Round World version can be deemed by [[Tolkienists]] as the definite 'actual' story behind the text; the text of the [[Quenta Silmarillion]] then, can be seen as just the legends based on the 'reality', written by the ancient people of [[Middle-earth]].<br />
<br />
{{references}}<br />
[[Category:Concepts]]</div>95.22.52.196https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion&diff=233918Round World version of the Silmarillion2013-10-02T22:48:35Z<p>95.22.52.196: </p>
<hr />
<div>The '''Round World''' version is one of the variants of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s [[Legendarium]], published in the final volumes of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]''. In this version, the setting of his legendarium is more realistic and less mythological: the Earth was always round, and [[Arda]] was the name for the whole solar system instead of just the Earth. <br />
<br />
In the Round World version the [[Sun]] and the [[Moon]] were not the fruit of the [[Two Trees of Valinor|Two Trees]], but actually preceded their creation. The significance of the Trees and the [[Silmarils]] was that they preserved the light of the Sun before it was tainted by [[Morgoth|Melkor]] when he ravished [[Arien]].<br />
<br />
Similarly, the [[stars]] were not created with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], but the occulting clouds were removed to reveal them.<br />
<br />
While this version emerged in the late stage of Tokien's legendarium, he never entirely decided which version—Flat or Round—to choose as 'real', and while Tolkien was eventually more inclined to use the realistic version, it was never as complete as the Flat World version, and so the latter was chosen by [[Christopher Tolkien]] for the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]''.<ref>{{MR|Myths}}</ref><br />
It may be noted, however, that in the final version of the Ainulindalë Tolkien returned to the flat-world model, after having written a round-world version of this story <ref> J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part One. Ainulindalë"</ref>. Likewise, the later Grey Annals explicitly mention the creation of the Sun and Moon after the destruction of the Trees <ref> J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals"</ref><br />
<br />
The Round World version can be deemed by [[Tolkienists]] as the definite 'actual' story behind the text; the text of the [[Quenta Silmarillion]] then, can be seen as just the legends based on the 'reality', written by the ancient people of [[Middle-earth]].<br />
<br />
{{references}}<br />
[[Category:Concepts]]</div>95.22.52.196