# Talk:Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar

(New page: ==Merge Proposal== I think that Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar and Ages are two different articles. This one is centered around the children of Ilúvatar, which I believe a...) |
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==Merge Proposal== | ==Merge Proposal== | ||

− | I think that [[Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar]] and [[Ages]] are two different articles. This one is centered around the [[children of Ilúvatar]], which I believe are the races of [[elves]] and [[men]]. I think the article [[ages]] really centers on the age of men specifically. | + | I think that [[Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar]] and [[Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar]] are two different articles. This one is centered around the [[children of Ilúvatar]], which I believe are the races of [[elves]] and [[men]]. I think the article [[Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar|ages]] really centers on the age of men specifically. |

− | It seems to me that we like to have articles on concepts no matter how small they might be. For example, [[Ilúvatar]] and [[Eru]] are the same person, but the main article actually describing the character is Eru while Ilúvatar describes the nature of the word. I think using this same rational we could have an article about ages defining what the concept of "ages" means within Tolkien's [[legendarium]]. Yet, I do think that [[ages]] needs a little more work. | + | It seems to me that we like to have articles on concepts no matter how small they might be. For example, [[Ilúvatar]] and [[Ilúvatar|Eru]] are the same person, but the main article actually describing the character is Eru while Ilúvatar describes the nature of the word. I think using this same rational we could have an article about ages defining what the concept of "ages" means within Tolkien's [[legendarium]]. Yet, I do think that [[Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar|ages]] needs a little more work. |

I also would to add I think the template [[:template:History of Arda|History of Arda]] might be incorrect with using Ages of Ilúvatar. The ages actually starts with the years of the trees and not after the years of the sun. I think I better title for it would be "the ages of Men". --[[User:Pinkkeith|Pinkkeith]] 10:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC) | I also would to add I think the template [[:template:History of Arda|History of Arda]] might be incorrect with using Ages of Ilúvatar. The ages actually starts with the years of the trees and not after the years of the sun. I think I better title for it would be "the ages of Men". --[[User:Pinkkeith|Pinkkeith]] 10:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC) | ||

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+ | :If there are really different concepts involved then there is reason to have different articles, yes. Approaching both articles from the angle of chronology I did not see them covering different concepts, as they are at present. | ||

+ | |||

+ | :I’m afraid there are a lot of misconceptions around about the chronology of Arda, I have still for instance found no place where Tolkien uses the term [[Years of the Lamps]], and I’ve found a strange mishmash of articles about Calendars here. Although Tolkien was careful and precise with the use of names and terms, especially in the same work, there are enough instances, especially in his ‘work under permanent construction’ as we find it in the [[HoMe]], where he used different terms, or changed terms, for the same concept. I’m a bit weary of working up such terms into separate concepts willy nilly if there is no substance to go around. | ||

+ | |||

+ | :But I’m prepared to be convinced that there are actual different concepts involved. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 23:58, 10 June 2010 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | == Where? == | ||

+ | |||

+ | The term "Ages of the Sun" is refuted. However where "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar" is mentioned? I found nothing in the Complete Guide, meaning the term is not in the Silmarillion. A Google search also returned nothing. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 22:45, 22 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | :Indeed, that's why [[User:Mith|Mith]] [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Template:History_of_Arda&diff=prev&oldid=217621 removed it] from [[Template:History of Arda]].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 23:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

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+ | ::This seems to be a good decision. Even after a search in all the HOME indexes I found nothing :/ [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | :::Yep, [[Michael Martinez]] [http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/07/09/what-are-the-ages-of-the-sun/ criticised us] for it.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 22:39, 23 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | Found it! In the [[Annals of Aman]] par.10: "In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuiviénen and the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar began." To be honest I am not sure I understand Martinez' objection. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:59, 24 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | :Yes, you have now confused the issue in the template by putting the four ages under "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar" because - if they are canonical beyond one reference (notice how Tolkien specifically removed that reference) - they overlap between Years of the Trees and Years of the Sun. This is Martinez's problem. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | ::Yea, a relevant Wikipedia article clarifies that the various measures run parallel to each other and thus overlap. This is hard to display on this one-dimensional template. I would suggest to refer to the 4+ Ages simply as "Ages" rather than "Ages of" something. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | ::...and I am of course referring to this article also, which should be renamed/rewritten? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | :::I didn't. To avoid such problem I specifically said "Years of the Sun" (just as we have Years of the Lamps, Years of the Trees) which is a term clearly used elsewhere. This avoided the problem you created which you are now trying to solve. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:13, 24 November 2012 (UTC) | ||

+ | |||

+ | ::::You didn't what? | ||

+ | ::::Mith, you sound bitter or angry or something with this, so let me explain. The problem you mention I created aimed to solve the previous one (IMHO) since the First Age did not belong to the Years of the Sun but extended before them; therefore the First and following Ages belong to just the "Ages". You had your reasons for writing what you wrote but it was not perfect. I made a change and the result is not perfect either. Let's find the least imperfect solution. | ||

+ | ::::Now let me explain further: if you type "[http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Ages&redirect=no Ages]" in the search box, tada! you are redirected to this page. Which seems to indicate that for TG "Ages" (as in First, Second, Third and Fourth Age) equals "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar"; apparently TG accepts the division of the legendarium into "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar" as the definite equivalent of the Four Ages. | ||

+ | ::::Since it seemed so at that moment, I changed the template to reflect this. Of course if "Ages" redirected to something else such as "Ages of Arda" then it would mean that TG accepts the "Ages of Arda" division and likewise, I would have put "Ages of Arda" in the template under which the Four Ages belong. | ||

+ | ::::And that's how I created the problem I am trying to solve. Now we are mentioning it, I hope that [[Template:History of Arda]] is any better now. | ||

+ | ::::Now we discussed what a trouble-bringer I am, let me repeat the question: Should we do something with the name of this article? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:59, 24 November 2012 (UTC) |

## Latest revision as of 16:59, 24 November 2012

## [edit] Merge Proposal

I think that Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar and Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar are two different articles. This one is centered around the children of Ilúvatar, which I believe are the races of elves and men. I think the article ages really centers on the age of men specifically.

It seems to me that we like to have articles on concepts no matter how small they might be. For example, Ilúvatar and Eru are the same person, but the main article actually describing the character is Eru while Ilúvatar describes the nature of the word. I think using this same rational we could have an article about ages defining what the concept of "ages" means within Tolkien's legendarium. Yet, I do think that ages needs a little more work.

I also would to add I think the template History of Arda might be incorrect with using Ages of Ilúvatar. The ages actually starts with the years of the trees and not after the years of the sun. I think I better title for it would be "the ages of Men". --Pinkkeith 10:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

- If there are really different concepts involved then there is reason to have different articles, yes. Approaching both articles from the angle of chronology I did not see them covering different concepts, as they are at present.

- I’m afraid there are a lot of misconceptions around about the chronology of Arda, I have still for instance found no place where Tolkien uses the term Years of the Lamps, and I’ve found a strange mishmash of articles about Calendars here. Although Tolkien was careful and precise with the use of names and terms, especially in the same work, there are enough instances, especially in his ‘work under permanent construction’ as we find it in the HoMe, where he used different terms, or changed terms, for the same concept. I’m a bit weary of working up such terms into separate concepts willy nilly if there is no substance to go around.

- But I’m prepared to be convinced that there are actual different concepts involved. — Mithrennaith 23:58, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

## [edit] Where?

The term "Ages of the Sun" is refuted. However where "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar" is mentioned? I found nothing in the Complete Guide, meaning the term is not in the Silmarillion. A Google search also returned nothing. Sage 22:45, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

- Indeed, that's why Mith removed it from Template:History of Arda.--
**KingAragorn**talk contribs edits email 23:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

- This seems to be a good decision. Even after a search in all the HOME indexes I found nothing :/ Sage 13:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

- Yep, Michael Martinez criticised us for it.--
**KingAragorn**talk contribs edits email 22:39, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

- Yep, Michael Martinez criticised us for it.--

Found it! In the Annals of Aman par.10: "In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuiviénen and the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar began." To be honest I am not sure I understand Martinez' objection. Sage 00:59, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

- Yes, you have now confused the issue in the template by putting the four ages under "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar" because - if they are canonical beyond one reference (notice how Tolkien specifically removed that reference) - they overlap between Years of the Trees and Years of the Sun. This is Martinez's problem. --
**Mith**(**Talk**/Contribs/Edits) 11:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

- Yea, a relevant Wikipedia article clarifies that the various measures run parallel to each other and thus overlap. This is hard to display on this one-dimensional template. I would suggest to refer to the 4+ Ages simply as "Ages" rather than "Ages of" something. Sage 14:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
- ...and I am of course referring to this article also, which should be renamed/rewritten? Sage 14:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

- You didn't what?
- Mith, you sound bitter or angry or something with this, so let me explain. The problem you mention I created aimed to solve the previous one (IMHO) since the First Age did not belong to the Years of the Sun but extended before them; therefore the First and following Ages belong to just the "Ages". You had your reasons for writing what you wrote but it was not perfect. I made a change and the result is not perfect either. Let's find the least imperfect solution.
- Now let me explain further: if you type "Ages" in the search box, tada! you are redirected to this page. Which seems to indicate that for TG "Ages" (as in First, Second, Third and Fourth Age) equals "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar"; apparently TG accepts the division of the legendarium into "Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar" as the definite equivalent of the Four Ages.
- Since it seemed so at that moment, I changed the template to reflect this. Of course if "Ages" redirected to something else such as "Ages of Arda" then it would mean that TG accepts the "Ages of Arda" division and likewise, I would have put "Ages of Arda" in the template under which the Four Ages belong.
- And that's how I created the problem I am trying to solve. Now we are mentioning it, I hope that Template:History of Arda is any better now.
- Now we discussed what a trouble-bringer I am, let me repeat the question: Should we do something with the name of this article? Sage 16:59, 24 November 2012 (UTC)