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Talk:Boromir

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***It ''is'' interesting that ''Boromir'' occurs in the Etymologies (I wasn't aware of it before you mentioned it in the article). But my concern is: where is the best place to write about that version of the etymology of ''Boromir''? In this article, or in any other of the three Boromirs, or perhaps all of them? I'm starting to think that it suffices to include a mention of the "Etymologies" etymology in the article on [[Borlach]], and then just provide some "See also" in the other Boromirs. Not sure about this, though! ;-) --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 02:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 
***It ''is'' interesting that ''Boromir'' occurs in the Etymologies (I wasn't aware of it before you mentioned it in the article). But my concern is: where is the best place to write about that version of the etymology of ''Boromir''? In this article, or in any other of the three Boromirs, or perhaps all of them? I'm starting to think that it suffices to include a mention of the "Etymologies" etymology in the article on [[Borlach]], and then just provide some "See also" in the other Boromirs. Not sure about this, though! ;-) --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 02:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 
****Generally I supported that etymology sections should exist in the disambiguation pages, but policy here has it that these sections should be in individual articles. For now, I think it's fine as I wrote it. By no means the etymology of Boromir should be in the page about Borlas. The words and their etymologies don't concern renaming of characters. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 11:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 
****Generally I supported that etymology sections should exist in the disambiguation pages, but policy here has it that these sections should be in individual articles. For now, I think it's fine as I wrote it. By no means the etymology of Boromir should be in the page about Borlas. The words and their etymologies don't concern renaming of characters. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 11:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
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:I hope you don't mind that I discuss the section here (consider it as editorial suggestions - although I'm not as linguistically knowledgable as you are!)--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 14:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
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The first element represents  the stem [[BOR]], Q. ''voro-'', S. ''boro-, bro-'' meaning "ever, lasting, steady";<ref name=Ety353>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 353</ref> the ending ''-[[mir]]'' is an element meaning "jewel" in both languages, thus meaning "lasting jewel". The proper Sindarin form would perhaps be *''Borovír'' with [[lenition]].
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:I would skip the last sentence. Why have a speculative form in the article? It's just confusing for readers, and it's rather such material that you would find in a linguistic essay. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 14:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
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Note that in the [[Appendix F]] ''Boromir'' is mentioned outside the names "remembered in the songs and histories of the First Age (as ''[[Beren]], [[Húrin]]'')" suggesting that Boromir was not named after the [[Boromir of Ladros]]. In the ''[[The Etymologies|Etymologies]]'' Boromir is said to derive from [[Old Noldorin]] ''[[Boronmíro]]'', being also a name originating from the [[Gnomes]].<ref name=Ety353/>
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:Concerning naming, the Appendices say that he was named after Boromir (Steward of Gondor). The first sentence above would therefore be unnecessary, I would say. ("...mentioned outside..." - do you rather mean "...not mentioned among..."?). Now, concerning the appearance of ''Boromir'' in the Etymologies, I would write this (only basing the section on material from the Etymologies itself):
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In the ''[[The Etymologies|Etymologies]]'', the name ''Boromir'' is discussed under the root [[BOR]]. The name is said to derive from [[Old Noldorin]] ''[[Boronmíro]]'', being also a name borne by [[Gnomes]]. The first element seems to be related to Old Noldorin ''boron'' ("steadfast, trusty man, faithful vassal").<ref name=Ety353>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 353 (root BOR)</ref> The ending ''-[[mir]]'', derived from root [[MIR]] (a root yielding derivatives meaning "jewel, precious thing, treasure"), is perhaps related to Old Noldorin ''[[mîre]]''.<ref name=Ety353>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 372 (root MIR)</ref><ref>{{VT|45a}}, p. 35</ref> According to the framework of the ''Etymologies'', the name ''Boromir'' would thus perhaps mean "faithful jewel".
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--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 14:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
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*Root BOR(ON): I removed the (ON) part. As the form BOR(ON) doesn't appear in the ''Etymologies'', we would need a reference, or statement of the reason (perhaps in a footnote), for your suggested version of the form. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 
*Root BOR(ON): I removed the (ON) part. As the form BOR(ON) doesn't appear in the ''Etymologies'', we would need a reference, or statement of the reason (perhaps in a footnote), for your suggested version of the form. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 
**Actually it is BOR-ÓN-, the entry right below BOR-, which is an extended (verbal?) form of BOR --[[User:Sage|Sage]] 22:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 
**Actually it is BOR-ÓN-, the entry right below BOR-, which is an extended (verbal?) form of BOR --[[User:Sage|Sage]] 22:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:18, 9 January 2011

Do we have an image of Sean Bean as Boromir? --Ted C 15:41, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


I vote for a move to Boromir. It's a lot simpler than what we've been using. --Narfil Palùrfalas 11:33, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

Contents

Etymology

Nice work on including an etymology for Boromir, Sage! I do have some concerns, though, which I hope we can sort out.--Morgan 01:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Connection to the Etymologies

  • Here are two relevant Elfling messages, which hopefully shed some additional light on the etymology of Boromir:
  • According to these Elfling messages, I would say that we shouldn't be so sure on connecting the boromir of LotR to the boromir of the Etymologies. If, as Beregond says, the Boromir intended in the Etymologies refers to Boromir the faithful Easterling (Borlach), we should perhaps be more wary about presenting the meaning given in the Etymologies. --Morgan 01:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
    • I didn't present a definite connection. Τhe Etymologies is a significant part of the linguistics, which largely still remains canon. A mention to an Etymologies-etymology would be desirable, even if it contradicts the latter-retconned legendarium. I included the reference for the sake of completeness and to display a possible discrepancy. If that was not clear enough, it should be reworded --Sage 22:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
      • It is interesting that Boromir occurs in the Etymologies (I wasn't aware of it before you mentioned it in the article). But my concern is: where is the best place to write about that version of the etymology of Boromir? In this article, or in any other of the three Boromirs, or perhaps all of them? I'm starting to think that it suffices to include a mention of the "Etymologies" etymology in the article on Borlach, and then just provide some "See also" in the other Boromirs. Not sure about this, though! ;-) --Morgan 02:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
        • Generally I supported that etymology sections should exist in the disambiguation pages, but policy here has it that these sections should be in individual articles. For now, I think it's fine as I wrote it. By no means the etymology of Boromir should be in the page about Borlas. The words and their etymologies don't concern renaming of characters. Sage 11:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


I hope you don't mind that I discuss the section here (consider it as editorial suggestions - although I'm not as linguistically knowledgable as you are!)--Morgan 14:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


The first element represents the stem [[BOR]], Q. ''voro-'', S. ''boro-, bro-'' meaning "ever, lasting, steady";<ref name=Ety353>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 353</ref> the ending ''-[[mir]]'' is an element meaning "jewel" in both languages, thus meaning "lasting jewel". The proper Sindarin form would perhaps be *''Borovír'' with [[lenition]].

I would skip the last sentence. Why have a speculative form in the article? It's just confusing for readers, and it's rather such material that you would find in a linguistic essay. --Morgan 14:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Note that in the [[Appendix F]] ''Boromir'' is mentioned outside the names "remembered in the songs and histories of the First Age (as ''[[Beren]], [[Húrin]]'')" suggesting that Boromir was not named after the [[Boromir of Ladros]]. In the ''[[The Etymologies|Etymologies]]'' Boromir is said to derive from [[Old Noldorin]] ''[[Boronmíro]]'', being also a name originating from the [[Gnomes]].<ref name=Ety353/>

Concerning naming, the Appendices say that he was named after Boromir (Steward of Gondor). The first sentence above would therefore be unnecessary, I would say. ("...mentioned outside..." - do you rather mean "...not mentioned among..."?). Now, concerning the appearance of Boromir in the Etymologies, I would write this (only basing the section on material from the Etymologies itself):

In the ''[[The Etymologies|Etymologies]]'', the name ''Boromir'' is discussed under the root [[BOR]]. The name is said to derive from [[Old Noldorin]] ''[[Boronmíro]]'', being also a name borne by [[Gnomes]]. The first element seems to be related to Old Noldorin ''boron'' ("steadfast, trusty man, faithful vassal").<ref name=Ety353>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 353 (root BOR)</ref> The ending ''-[[mir]]'', derived from root [[MIR]] (a root yielding derivatives meaning "jewel, precious thing, treasure"), is perhaps related to Old Noldorin ''[[mîre]]''.<ref name=Ety353>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 372 (root MIR)</ref><ref>{{VT|45a}}, p. 35</ref> According to the framework of the ''Etymologies'', the name ''Boromir'' would thus perhaps mean "faithful jewel". --Morgan 14:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


  • Root BOR(ON): I removed the (ON) part. As the form BOR(ON) doesn't appear in the Etymologies, we would need a reference, or statement of the reason (perhaps in a footnote), for your suggested version of the form. --Morgan 01:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Actually it is BOR-ÓN-, the entry right below BOR-, which is an extended (verbal?) form of BOR --Sage 22:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
      • Well, the form as it appears in my copy is BORÓN-. And as the ON form Boromir appears under BOR-, I don't see any apparent reason why we should mention the root BORÓN.--Morgan 02:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Boromir in formerly unpublished works by Tolkien

Does an explanation of Boromir occur in PE 17? This would be a good source, and I quickly read through it, sadly without finding anything. For some reason, the publication doesn't have any index, so I might have missed some occurence, though. --Morgan 01:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Can't help here. --Sage 22:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggested translations

Noting suggestion in Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull (eds), The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, p. 224: "Sindarin boro(n) 'steadfast' + Quenya míre 'jewel'." --Morgan 01:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I find míre inadequate to explain the mixed-ness of the name. míre is not that much different from mîr so as to make a Quenya influence worth mentioning. I like to think that the 'pure Sindarin' form would be *Brovír and the Quenya influence was to retain the first o and perhaps escape the lenition of m. But then, what about Boromir of Ladros? Did the Edain of the First House also use hybrid names? Or was it Mithrim? --Sage 22:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)