Talk:Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin

Example Image?

I found an actual helm that fits almost perfectly the description of the Dragon-helm. It was made by the legendary armorer Filippo Negroli. You can see it here. I'm wondering whether it would be appropriate to use the image in this article? --Ebakunin 01:33, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Good question. I've been wondering where we should draw the line as well, mainly with images approaching the Dungeons and Dragons or fantasy style opposed to strictly Tolkien. Maybe we can use the image and state it was a possible inspiration for the Professor? As long as we state the artist was not inspired by Middle-earth, I would be okay with it, a similar image is better than none at all. --Hyarion 01:39, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

History section

I'm unsure of including the info about the destiny of the Helm beyond the Sack of Bar-en-Danwedh in the History section. That info is only given in notes and the final destiny still remains unknown. Instead I would point out that Túrin wore a dwarf-mask in Nargothrond and the Battle of Tumhalad, which is what Christopher included in his editions (info that he did not invented, but chose). --LorenzoCB 14:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The question Dragon-helm vs. Dwarf-mask is very important. Túrin can only find a Dwarf-mask in the armories of Nargothrond, if the dwarves had been there and had been working there. The involvement of dwarves in Nargothrond is something, that developed slowly and was not present in the Lost Tales. When Húrin came to Doriath, he brought in the Lost Tales the treasure, that was cursed by the dragon. Later he brought the nacklace of the dwarves, that was forged in Nargothrond already. But Tolkien never touched the original Tale of the Ruin of Doriath. So step by step a major contradiction developed. Christopher re-wrote the whole Doriath-chapter in his 1977 Silmarillion according to the idea, that the dwarves had been in Nargothrond already. But these notes by his father show, that this was not decided finally. That is, why it should be mentioned. This complex question is not restricted to the Helm vs. Mask, it influences more stories, e.g. Galadriel's sojourn in Beleriand during the First Age.--172.69.22.226 19:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Tolkien defined quite well the idea of Nargothrond as being constructed with the aid of Dwarves. In a note (recently published in TNOME) he even specified that the Petty-dwarves were the first who helped Finrod, but they betrayed him and the Dwarves of the Ered Luin came to do the job. So there is no contradiction at all in Nargothrond having dwarf-masks. The problem here is that Tolkien did not defined well enough the intricate travels of the Dragon-helm, nor its final destiny. IMO, it's better to make the same choice as Christopher and keep the version of the dwarf-mask in the History section, and leave those final notes to the OVOTL section. --LorenzoCB 08:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I do not dispute, that Tolkien had a clear conception about the construction of Nargothrond by the Dwarves, but he had competing conceptions of several Tales (cf. round earth vs. flat earth Ainulindale). The contradiction I am talking about is between the Túrin and the Ruin of Doriath story, not within the Túrin story. Christopher's choice is arbitrary and forced him to re-write the Ruin of Doriath in a way his father had not done. For pragmatical reasons I would suggest to explain both variants in the article, even if s.v. "Other versions... etc.". But we should not give preference to one version, because we don't know, what Tolkien would have done in the end. Christopher can't be an arbiter, because he has his own ideas and preferences, not necessarily shared by his father (He is focusing too much on the Lord of the Rings and excluding the Lost Tales and the Hobbit, because they were written before his time and for other family members). And I can understand, that many fans have difficulties with "notes", but this is normal philological business. I am fine with it, if we split it and give the information in different sections.--172.69.33.126 17:58, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh yes, Christopher Tolkien is the Master Editor and we put his choices in first place, unless he showed regret. That's why we use his edition of The Silmarillion as a main source. Otherwise there would be no articles on the legendarium beyond The Hobbit and TLOTR. I don't see the relation between Túrin and the Ruin of Doriath, but I agree we have a lot of work to expand on that. There is a lot of info in TBOLT that has not been applied yet. --LorenzoCB 18:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)