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Talk:Glorfindel

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Just a note: this wiki has Orodreth as Gil-galad's father, as does Wikipedia, and unlike the Encyclopedia of Arda. But why does it insist on having two Glorfindels? (Wikipedia has one.) [[User:202.175.228.179|202.175.228.179]] 05:32, 12 August 2006 (EDT)
 
Just a note: this wiki has Orodreth as Gil-galad's father, as does Wikipedia, and unlike the Encyclopedia of Arda. But why does it insist on having two Glorfindels? (Wikipedia has one.) [[User:202.175.228.179|202.175.228.179]] 05:32, 12 August 2006 (EDT)
  
:As I suppose you know, based on a writing in [[The Peoples of Middle-earth]], many if not most Tolkienists assume that the two Glorfindels were actually one.  But because the controversy still remains (see [[Talk:Glorfindel of Rivendell]]), Tolkien Gateway has accepted placing them differently.  I personally favor putting them into one article.  Someday, I suppose, when we have more Gatekeepers, we shall be placing it up to a vote.  By the way, Orodreth was Gil-galad's father according to Tolkien's later writings, such as the [[Shibboleth of Fëanor]], which were ignored by [[Christopher Tolkien]] in the [[Silmarillion]].  This, again, is controversial because many believe that Tolkien's later works were not his final thoughts, were not meant to be published, and/or Tolkien was in decline at that time.  Those are the most common arguments, at least.  I hope that lays it out well. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 08:58, 12 August 2006 (EDT)
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:As I suppose you know, based on a writing in [[The Peoples of Middle-earth]], many if not most Tolkienists assume that the two Glorfindels were actually one.  But because the controversy still remains (see {{Redlink|[[Talk:Glorfindel of Rivendell]]}}), Tolkien Gateway has accepted placing them differently.  I personally favor putting them into one article.  Someday, I suppose, when we have more Gatekeepers, we shall be placing it up to a vote.  By the way, Orodreth was Gil-galad's father according to Tolkien's later writings, such as the [[Shibboleth of Fëanor]], which were ignored by [[Christopher Tolkien]] in ''[[The Silmarillion]]''.  This, again, is controversial because many believe that Tolkien's later works were not his final thoughts, were not meant to be published, and/or Tolkien was in decline at that time.  Those are the most common arguments, at least.  I hope that lays it out well. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 08:58, 12 August 2006 (EDT)
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Would it be a good idea that in this article (currently disambig) the probability and evidence of them being one and the same is discussed? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 21:21, 29 October 2006 (EST)
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:No-one has answered, so I'm going to renew the question, presuming it has been missed and/or forgotten. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 17:22, 19 December 2006 (EST)
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Narfil, I agree that the prbability and evidence of them being one should be discussed in this article also. So I think you should copy paste the argument from the Glorfindel(Rivendell) article into this one.--[[User:Legolas|Legolas]] 01:53, 20 December 2006 (EST)
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== References ==
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This is a strong article, with good illustrations, and it could be a candidate for FA status.  It needs some references, however, to reasonably be nominated.  Anyone like to step up to that job?--[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 16:08, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
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==Parentage==
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As an explanation for this new section in the article: some disputable and not sourced content about his parentage were included in "Early Life" and "Etymology" sections. Moved them all under a new "Parentage" section. It can be merged with "Controversy". [[User:Amaranth|Amaranth]] 23:20, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
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:It was nice to isolate them. Now that I am looking at it, I don't think we need this, or tracing every Elf's parentage. We do know that some hundreds of Noldor and/or Vanyar followed Feanor and his brothers, but we are told nothing about their relationship to Finwe, there is no point to think that all were children, grandchildren or nephews of Finwe. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 23:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
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I agree that it is not necessary to trace the lineage of every Elf in the Legendarium. Besides in this case even Tolkien himself didn't see it necessary it seems. The assumption of Glorfindel being Vanyarin descendant is because of his golden hair colour (a stereotypical Vanyar trait) and there were no Vanyar in Middle-earth (after the Great Journey) except the Half-Vanyarin kin of Indis. But from many example we know that there were Elves with hair colours unusual for their lineage and many Elves were not desribed in full detail. Tolkien apparently didn't put any restrictions for this. So labelling every blond(e) Elf as 'Vanya' doesn't seem right to me. Instead of removing it, I preferred to seperate the content by moving it into a different section. But removing it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. --[[User:Amaranth|Amaranth]] 01:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:56, 3 March 2013

Just a note: this wiki has Orodreth as Gil-galad's father, as does Wikipedia, and unlike the Encyclopedia of Arda. But why does it insist on having two Glorfindels? (Wikipedia has one.) 202.175.228.179 05:32, 12 August 2006 (EDT)

As I suppose you know, based on a writing in The Peoples of Middle-earth, many if not most Tolkienists assume that the two Glorfindels were actually one. But because the controversy still remains (see Talk:Glorfindel of Rivendell[former link]), Tolkien Gateway has accepted placing them differently. I personally favor putting them into one article. Someday, I suppose, when we have more Gatekeepers, we shall be placing it up to a vote. By the way, Orodreth was Gil-galad's father according to Tolkien's later writings, such as the Shibboleth of Fëanor, which were ignored by Christopher Tolkien in The Silmarillion. This, again, is controversial because many believe that Tolkien's later works were not his final thoughts, were not meant to be published, and/or Tolkien was in decline at that time. Those are the most common arguments, at least. I hope that lays it out well. --Narfil Palùrfalas 08:58, 12 August 2006 (EDT)



Would it be a good idea that in this article (currently disambig) the probability and evidence of them being one and the same is discussed? --Narfil Palùrfalas 21:21, 29 October 2006 (EST)

No-one has answered, so I'm going to renew the question, presuming it has been missed and/or forgotten. --Narfil Palùrfalas 17:22, 19 December 2006 (EST)

Narfil, I agree that the prbability and evidence of them being one should be discussed in this article also. So I think you should copy paste the argument from the Glorfindel(Rivendell) article into this one.--Legolas 01:53, 20 December 2006 (EST)


[edit] References

This is a strong article, with good illustrations, and it could be a candidate for FA status. It needs some references, however, to reasonably be nominated. Anyone like to step up to that job?--Theoden1 16:08, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Parentage

As an explanation for this new section in the article: some disputable and not sourced content about his parentage were included in "Early Life" and "Etymology" sections. Moved them all under a new "Parentage" section. It can be merged with "Controversy". Amaranth 23:20, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

It was nice to isolate them. Now that I am looking at it, I don't think we need this, or tracing every Elf's parentage. We do know that some hundreds of Noldor and/or Vanyar followed Feanor and his brothers, but we are told nothing about their relationship to Finwe, there is no point to think that all were children, grandchildren or nephews of Finwe. Sage 23:46, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it is not necessary to trace the lineage of every Elf in the Legendarium. Besides in this case even Tolkien himself didn't see it necessary it seems. The assumption of Glorfindel being Vanyarin descendant is because of his golden hair colour (a stereotypical Vanyar trait) and there were no Vanyar in Middle-earth (after the Great Journey) except the Half-Vanyarin kin of Indis. But from many example we know that there were Elves with hair colours unusual for their lineage and many Elves were not desribed in full detail. Tolkien apparently didn't put any restrictions for this. So labelling every blond(e) Elf as 'Vanya' doesn't seem right to me. Instead of removing it, I preferred to seperate the content by moving it into a different section. But removing it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. --Amaranth 01:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)