https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:King_of_the_Dead&feed=atom&action=historyTalk:King of the Dead - Revision history2024-03-29T00:31:20ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.39.3https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:King_of_the_Dead&diff=45013&oldid=prevNarfil Palùrfalas at 16:05, 15 June 20072007-06-15T16:05:20Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Time spent pondering about Tolkien's creations is never time wasted! ;) --[[User:Haltiamieli|Haltiamieli]] 10:47, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Time spent pondering about Tolkien's creations is never time wasted! ;) --[[User:Haltiamieli|Haltiamieli]] 10:47, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::I'd forgotten about that quote. Good find, Dr Death. In older speech, "you" and "ye" were plural, though "thou" and "thee" were singular. Since Tolkien used the old direct object, I'd assume that he was using the old sense of the word; that is, he was addressing the Host of the Dead collectively. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 12:05, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Narfil Palùrfalashttps://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:King_of_the_Dead&diff=45009&oldid=prevHaltiamieli at 14:47, 15 June 20072007-06-15T14:47:58Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Just a note, as well, 'ye' is plural, though Aragorn might not have known that the Dead had a King at that time. I admit I never thought of it up to this point, but it seems now to me more likely that Aragorn was the King of the Dead in their minds. Best to include both theories. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 09:32, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Just a note, as well, 'ye' is plural, though Aragorn might not have known that the Dead had a King at that time. I admit I never thought of it up to this point, but it seems now to me more likely that Aragorn was the King of the Dead in their minds. Best to include both theories. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 09:32, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::Hold up, just found proof- i'm wrong, "And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down. Then he bowed low and turned away; and swiftly the whol grey host drew off and vanished like a mist." Reverted to an older edit. Apologies for wasting peoples time. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 09:36, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Hold up, just found proof- i</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">m wrong, "And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down. Then he bowed low and turned away</del>; <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and swiftly the whol grey host drew off and vanished like a mist." Reverted to an older edit. Apologies for wasting peoples time. </del>[[User:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Dr Death</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Dr Death</del>]] <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">09</del>:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">36</del>, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:Time spent pondering about Tolkien</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">s creations is never time wasted! </ins>;<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">) --</ins>[[User:<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Haltiamieli</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Haltiamieli</ins>]] <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">10</ins>:<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">47</ins>, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td></tr>
</table>Haltiamielihttps://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:King_of_the_Dead&diff=44989&oldid=prevDr Death at 13:36, 15 June 20072007-06-15T13:36:37Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Just a note, as well, 'ye' is plural, though Aragorn might not have known that the Dead had a King at that time. I admit I never thought of it up to this point, but it seems now to me more likely that Aragorn was the King of the Dead in their minds. Best to include both theories. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 09:32, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::Just a note, as well, 'ye' is plural, though Aragorn might not have known that the Dead had a King at that time. I admit I never thought of it up to this point, but it seems now to me more likely that Aragorn was the King of the Dead in their minds. Best to include both theories. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 09:32, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::Hold up, just found proof- i'm wrong, "And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down. Then he bowed low and turned away; and swiftly the whol grey host drew off and vanished like a mist." Reverted to an older edit. Apologies for wasting peoples time. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 09:36, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Dr Deathhttps://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:King_of_the_Dead&diff=44987&oldid=prevNarfil Palùrfalas at 13:32, 15 June 20072007-06-15T13:32:46Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:From that quote it seems just as easily to imply that regardless of who the inhabitants ''thought'' it was, they were in fact referring to the individual who was in fact Aragorn. Considering an independant leader of the dead men is never refered to separately (even when Aragorn asks them at the stone of Erech 'Why have ye come?' a specific individual is not named, it simply says "and a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away." where it would have been an ideal oppertunity to give a specific independant King of the Dead a line) All of this makes the reference rather ambiguous. I'm not saying for certain that it *is* Aragorn i'm just pointing out that there's a bit of a question surrounding it [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 08:34, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:From that quote it seems just as easily to imply that regardless of who the inhabitants ''thought'' it was, they were in fact referring to the individual who was in fact Aragorn. Considering an independant leader of the dead men is never refered to separately (even when Aragorn asks them at the stone of Erech 'Why have ye come?' a specific individual is not named, it simply says "and a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away." where it would have been an ideal oppertunity to give a specific independant King of the Dead a line) All of this makes the reference rather ambiguous. I'm not saying for certain that it *is* Aragorn i'm just pointing out that there's a bit of a question surrounding it [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 08:34, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::Just a note, as well, 'ye' is plural, though Aragorn might not have known that the Dead had a King at that time. I admit I never thought of it up to this point, but it seems now to me more likely that Aragorn was the King of the Dead in their minds. Best to include both theories. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 09:32, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Narfil Palùrfalashttps://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:King_of_the_Dead&diff=44974&oldid=prevDr Death at 12:34, 15 June 20072007-06-15T12:34:59Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I don't see any reason to doubt the identity of the King of the Dead. The name is not used only by "evil men" Aragorn drives from Gondor, but also some pages earlier by none other than people of Morthond Vale when they flee. Hill of Erech and the Dead had been folklore of those regions for literally thousand of years, so it is quite clear that when they cry of "King of the Dead", they think of the undead king of the oath-breakers, familiar from the folklore. Whether they think Aragorn as him when the Grey Company descends from the Paths of the Dead is somewhat beyond the point. --[[User:Haltiamieli|Haltiamieli]] 15:56, 14 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I don't see any reason to doubt the identity of the King of the Dead. The name is not used only by "evil men" Aragorn drives from Gondor, but also some pages earlier by none other than people of Morthond Vale when they flee. Hill of Erech and the Dead had been folklore of those regions for literally thousand of years, so it is quite clear that when they cry of "King of the Dead", they think of the undead king of the oath-breakers, familiar from the folklore. Whether they think Aragorn as him when the Grey Company descends from the Paths of the Dead is somewhat beyond the point. --[[User:Haltiamieli|Haltiamieli]] 15:56, 14 June 2007 (EDT)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:True, i did miss that reference to the men of Morthond shouting it rather than just the evil men, but looking at the book now the passage reads as such "Ever there rose the same cry in the gathering night: 'The King of the Dead! The King of the Dead is come upon us.' Bells were ringing far below, and all men fled before the face of Aragorn."</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:From that quote it seems just as easily to imply that regardless of who the inhabitants ''thought'' it was, they were in fact referring to the individual who was in fact Aragorn. Considering an independant leader of the dead men is never refered to separately (even when Aragorn asks them at the stone of Erech 'Why have ye come?' a specific individual is not named, it simply says "and a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away." where it would have been an ideal oppertunity to give a specific independant King of the Dead a line) All of this makes the reference rather ambiguous. I'm not saying for certain that it *is* Aragorn i'm just pointing out that there's a bit of a question surrounding it [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 08:34, 15 June 2007 (EDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Dr Deathhttps://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:King_of_the_Dead&diff=44941&oldid=prevHaltiamieli: Identity of the King of the Dead2007-06-14T19:56:10Z<p>Identity of the King of the Dead</p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div>I don't see any reason to doubt the identity of the King of the Dead. The name is not used only by "evil men" Aragorn drives from Gondor, but also some pages earlier by none other than people of Morthond Vale when they flee. Hill of Erech and the Dead had been folklore of those regions for literally thousand of years, so it is quite clear that when they cry of "King of the Dead", they think of the undead king of the oath-breakers, familiar from the folklore. Whether they think Aragorn as him when the Grey Company descends from the Paths of the Dead is somewhat beyond the point. --[[User:Haltiamieli|Haltiamieli]] 15:56, 14 June 2007 (EDT)</div>Haltiamieli