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Talk:Minas Tirith

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Sotomayor's ''Minas Tirith'' does not resemble Tolkien's description of the capital of Gondor. If we're going to use the image, it will have to be with the First Age fortress of [[Minas Tirith in Beleriand]], which guarded the Pass of Sirion. I've moved the image there.
 
Sotomayor's ''Minas Tirith'' does not resemble Tolkien's description of the capital of Gondor. If we're going to use the image, it will have to be with the First Age fortress of [[Minas Tirith in Beleriand]], which guarded the Pass of Sirion. I've moved the image there.
  
:Sounds good, your right it doesn't resemble [[Minas Tirith in Gondor]], are we positive it is supposed to be the Minas Tirith in Beleriand though? If it's really just a poorly created version of Minas Tirith in Gondor we can remove it all together. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:24, 20 April 2006 (EDT)
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:Sounds good, your right it doesn't resemble [[Minas Tirith|Minas Tirith in Gondor]], are we positive it is supposed to be the Minas Tirith in Beleriand though? If it's really just a poorly created version of Minas Tirith in Gondor we can remove it all together. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:24, 20 April 2006 (EDT)
  
 
::AFAIK, Tolkien really didn't give a description of Orodreth's Minas Tirith. Since many other images are nothing more than good guesses, and Sotomayor's picture is quite good, I don't have problem using it. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 18:52, 20 April 2006 (EDT)
 
::AFAIK, Tolkien really didn't give a description of Orodreth's Minas Tirith. Since many other images are nothing more than good guesses, and Sotomayor's picture is quite good, I don't have problem using it. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 18:52, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

Revision as of 00:18, 14 January 2011

Contents

Felix Sotomayor's Picture

Sotomayor's Minas Tirith does not resemble Tolkien's description of the capital of Gondor. If we're going to use the image, it will have to be with the First Age fortress of Minas Tirith in Beleriand, which guarded the Pass of Sirion. I've moved the image there.

Sounds good, your right it doesn't resemble Minas Tirith in Gondor, are we positive it is supposed to be the Minas Tirith in Beleriand though? If it's really just a poorly created version of Minas Tirith in Gondor we can remove it all together. --Hyarion 18:24, 20 April 2006 (EDT)
AFAIK, Tolkien really didn't give a description of Orodreth's Minas Tirith. Since many other images are nothing more than good guesses, and Sotomayor's picture is quite good, I don't have problem using it. --Ebakunin 18:52, 20 April 2006 (EDT)
I do think it's meant to be MT in Gondor, as I see seven sections and a high tower on the top. It does look more like a fort than a city, though. --Earendilyon 03:04, 21 April 2006 (EDT)
One of Minas Tirith's main features is the jutting bastion of rock that looks like half an arch. Jackson's RotK nailed the look and feel of the capital. You're probably right about Sotomayor's intention, but his picture is definitely wrong for Gondor's Minas Tirith. --Ebakunin 12:34, 21 April 2006 (EDT)
I agree. If there is only one picture known for a specific article, then yes, we might insert it regardless of the lack of canonocity but in this case there are so many images of Minas Tirith, we should make sure the images shown represent the city as best as possible. --Hyarion 12:37, 21 April 2006 (EDT)

Info from book and from movies

I think this article needs to diversify more clearly between info from Tolkien's writings and PJs movies. For example, where does the reference to "a battery of 100 trebuchets" originate? I can't recall it from the book. --Earendilyon 16:22, 21 April 2006 (EDT)

I definitely agree. I think we should try and make it a standard to have a "Portrayal in adaptions" heading for the articles which have information related to The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy. But I do think it would be alright to show an image from the films as one of the main images for the article, as you have to admit, there are a lot of things they did a great job portraying. --Hyarion 16:47, 21 April 2006 (EDT)
There's no but there, really, as almost all pictures (except Tolkien's own) are adaptations. And as the source is normally given, I've no problem with adding them to articles. [Nicest thing would be of course, to have as many pictures as possible made by the Professor himself.] --Earendilyon 16:53, 21 April 2006 (EDT)
I agree, I think we have most of the Professor's images uploaded too. It's just difficult with the purists who see an image from the films and automatically dislike the article. Hard to please everyone. --Hyarion 19:14, 21 April 2006 (EDT)

Proportions

The breadth of the city would have average 3100 feet.<ref>[[The History of Middle-earth]], ''[[Sauron Defeated]]'', Illustration on p. 64</ref>

I'm hesitant to remove this, because it is referenced. However, the reference doesn't appear to be correct. There are no illustrations of Minas Tirith in Sauron Defeated. The only think I can think of is that the editor meant The War of the Ring, but I can't see how one can draw an indications of scale from the two sketches of Minas Tirith there. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 13:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

There is a description of a sketch of Minas Tirith by Tolkien on p. 67 (in my copy) of Sauron Defeated but again there's no indication of scale there – just a description of where the buildings in the Citadel are situated. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 13:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
The figure is not from anything in THOME: it's from Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth. Page 138 with references from p. 198 (small bracketed comments are my own):
Tolkien revealed no dimensions of the hill except that of election — 700 feet;[1] but they may be estimated by comparing two drawings, one of Minas Tirith and one of the Citadel.[2] If the diameter of the White Tower were about 150 feet, the breadth of the city would have averaged 3100 feet.[3]
  1. RK, 24 (First line of page 12 in my edition; paragraph 36 of "Minas Tirith")
  2. VIII, 290; IX, 64; Marquette Archives (The Atlas was released in 1994 and references to Sauron Defeated are based on the typescript. I can't find this drawing.)
  3. If the Tower were wider than 150 feet, it would have appeared stout in spite of its 300-foot height (50 fathoms - RK, 24). Note that the Tower was described as "a spike" — not tiered as shown in VIII, 261; P, 27 (167 or 169 in Artist and Illustrator, I'm guessing)
I'm not sure what to make of that. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:35, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, I suppose Fonstad had to make a rough guess at the size of the city to draw her map, and that's as good an estimate as any. But in the grand scheme of things it's an incidental figure, and since it's also decidedly non-canon I think I will go ahead and remove it. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 17:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I think it's a useful piece of information to leave in the context of a "JRRT doesn't state the size of Minas Tirith; in KWF's TAOME she estimates 3,100 feet" sentence. It's something others might find useful so long as we don't give it authenticity (after all, we put non-canonical stuff in "Portrayal of Adaptations" all the time). It's up to you, of course. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:02, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Anárion

The Anárion issue is quite frustrating. There seems to be no disagreement that he founded Minas Anor (and Isildur Minas Tirith) amongst the secondary sources, but I can't find it stated explicitly by Tolkien anywhere. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 10:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't find this sourced either. The closest I can get to it (and what some websites source) is this quote from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:
"Other strong places they built also upon either hand: Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon, eastward upon a shoulder of the Mountains of Shadow as a threat to Mordor; and to the westward Minas Anor, the Tower of the Setting Sun, at the feet of Mount Mindolluin, as a shield against the wild men of the dales. In Minas Ithil was the house of Isildur, and in Minas Anor the house of Anárion, but they shared the realm between them and their thrones were set side by side in the Great Hall of Osgiliath."
Robert Foster just calls Minas Anor, the "Fortress-city of Anárion". I'm going to keep looking because nearly every source I've read does say this. I must be missing something. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:05, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
That will do for now at least. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 12:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Move

How about deleting Minas Tirith (which redirects here) and moving this there? —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 16:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 16:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Yup. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I would prefer that. I agree. -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  14:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
It would be best if an admin could do it (i.e. delete Minas Tirith and do a proper move), or we'll break the page history. —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 15:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC)