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Talk:Misty Mountains

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I have added the possibility of a minor pass north of the [[High Pass]]. This can be inferred by this passage from [[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'s prologue ('[[Concerning Hobbits]]'):
 
I have added the possibility of a minor pass north of the [[High Pass]]. This can be inferred by this passage from [[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'s prologue ('[[Concerning Hobbits]]'):
 
:"The Fallohides, the least numerous, were a northerly branch ... They crossed the mountains north of Rivendell and came down the River Hoarwell."
 
:"The Fallohides, the least numerous, were a northerly branch ... They crossed the mountains north of Rivendell and came down the River Hoarwell."
If they came down the [[Mitheithel]], it appears reasonable to deduce that a pass must have existed near the source of that river.--[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 17:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
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If they came down the [[Mitheithel]], it appears reasonable to deduce that a pass must have existed near the source of that river. --[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 17:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
  
 
:Speculation. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:15, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 
:Speculation. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:15, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
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::I suggest a different wording: "The Fallohides crossed the mountains north of Rivendell... Whether they used one of those passes or another one it is not known." [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 
::I suggest a different wording: "The Fallohides crossed the mountains north of Rivendell... Whether they used one of those passes or another one it is not known." [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
  
 
::Indeed it is speculation, as it was immediately clear from my use of the adverb 'possibly'. Unfortunately, the wording [[User:Sage|Sage]] proposes doesn't make much sense as Tolkien states clearly that the Fallohides crossed the mountains "north of Rivendell". So, since all the other known passes are ''south'' of Rivendell, the corollary is the existence of an insofar unnamed fourth pass somewhere between the High Pass and Mount Gundabad. My speculation is therefore non only totally reasonable, but in fact essentially implicit in Tolkien's text. If you agree, I propose to restore my text with the addition of an explanatory footnote.--[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 21:43, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 
::Indeed it is speculation, as it was immediately clear from my use of the adverb 'possibly'. Unfortunately, the wording [[User:Sage|Sage]] proposes doesn't make much sense as Tolkien states clearly that the Fallohides crossed the mountains "north of Rivendell". So, since all the other known passes are ''south'' of Rivendell, the corollary is the existence of an insofar unnamed fourth pass somewhere between the High Pass and Mount Gundabad. My speculation is therefore non only totally reasonable, but in fact essentially implicit in Tolkien's text. If you agree, I propose to restore my text with the addition of an explanatory footnote.--[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 21:43, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Well I didn't propose the exact wording but I suggested an example for the syntax so as not to seem like the article jumps to non-canonical conclusions. Actually I think that if you simply mention that the fallohides crossed that point without mentioning the existence of a pass, would be safe enough IMHO. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 22:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 
  
Can anyone point me to the source in the Legendarium for the existence of a pass in the mountains by the source of the Gladden River?--[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 21:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
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:::Well I didn't propose the exact wording but I suggested an example for the syntax so as not to seem like the article jumps to non-canonical conclusions. Actually I think that if you simply mention that the Fallohides crossed that point without mentioning the existence of a pass, would be safe enough IMHO. --[[User:Sage|Sage]] 22:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
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Can anyone point me to the source in the Legendarium for the existence of a pass in the mountains by the source of the Gladden River? --[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 21:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
  
 
:After the Council of Elrond, scouts were sent out to determine where the Black Riders were and if any had survived the flood at the Ford of Bruinen.  They went in various directions and "others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel."  This pass was not named and seems to not have been considered by the Fellowship as they hiked south.  It is in ''The Fellowship of the Ring'', in Book II, Chapter 3 "The Ring Goes South", near the beginning of the chapter (p. 287 in the hardcover Houghton Mifflin Co. edition). --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 
:After the Council of Elrond, scouts were sent out to determine where the Black Riders were and if any had survived the flood at the Ford of Bruinen.  They went in various directions and "others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel."  This pass was not named and seems to not have been considered by the Fellowship as they hiked south.  It is in ''The Fellowship of the Ring'', in Book II, Chapter 3 "The Ring Goes South", near the beginning of the chapter (p. 287 in the hardcover Houghton Mifflin Co. edition). --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
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::Thank you for the exhaustive answer, [[User:Gamling|Gamling]]. --[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 18:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
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::I think that settles it then! [[User:Sage|Sage]] 10:16, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
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:::No, it doesn't, because the Gladden is ''south'' of Rivendell, while Tolkien says that the Fallohides crossed the mountains somewhere north of Rivendell. --[[User:Gigoachef|Gigoachef]] 18:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:36, 17 November 2012

Passes over the Misty Mountains

I have added the possibility of a minor pass north of the High Pass. This can be inferred by this passage from The Fellowship of the Ring's prologue ('Concerning Hobbits'):

"The Fallohides, the least numerous, were a northerly branch ... They crossed the mountains north of Rivendell and came down the River Hoarwell."

If they came down the Mitheithel, it appears reasonable to deduce that a pass must have existed near the source of that river. --Gigoachef 17:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Speculation. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:15, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
I suggest a different wording: "The Fallohides crossed the mountains north of Rivendell... Whether they used one of those passes or another one it is not known." Sage 20:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Indeed it is speculation, as it was immediately clear from my use of the adverb 'possibly'. Unfortunately, the wording Sage proposes doesn't make much sense as Tolkien states clearly that the Fallohides crossed the mountains "north of Rivendell". So, since all the other known passes are south of Rivendell, the corollary is the existence of an insofar unnamed fourth pass somewhere between the High Pass and Mount Gundabad. My speculation is therefore non only totally reasonable, but in fact essentially implicit in Tolkien's text. If you agree, I propose to restore my text with the addition of an explanatory footnote.--Gigoachef 21:43, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Well I didn't propose the exact wording but I suggested an example for the syntax so as not to seem like the article jumps to non-canonical conclusions. Actually I think that if you simply mention that the Fallohides crossed that point without mentioning the existence of a pass, would be safe enough IMHO. --Sage 22:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone point me to the source in the Legendarium for the existence of a pass in the mountains by the source of the Gladden River? --Gigoachef 21:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

After the Council of Elrond, scouts were sent out to determine where the Black Riders were and if any had survived the flood at the Ford of Bruinen. They went in various directions and "others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel." This pass was not named and seems to not have been considered by the Fellowship as they hiked south. It is in The Fellowship of the Ring, in Book II, Chapter 3 "The Ring Goes South", near the beginning of the chapter (p. 287 in the hardcover Houghton Mifflin Co. edition). --Gamling 22:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the exhaustive answer, Gamling. --Gigoachef 18:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I think that settles it then! Sage 10:16, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
No, it doesn't, because the Gladden is south of Rivendell, while Tolkien says that the Fallohides crossed the mountains somewhere north of Rivendell. --Gigoachef 18:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)