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Talk:Misty Mountains

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When I added footnotes with Fonstad's, Foster's, Fauskanger's and Salo's estimations and reconstructions, it never came to my attention any policty that I shouldn't, because they are speculations. If we are to remove Fonstad's estimation (and go on with purging such notes and commentaries), we should first discuss it, and perhaps define what speculation is. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:56, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 
When I added footnotes with Fonstad's, Foster's, Fauskanger's and Salo's estimations and reconstructions, it never came to my attention any policty that I shouldn't, because they are speculations. If we are to remove Fonstad's estimation (and go on with purging such notes and commentaries), we should first discuss it, and perhaps define what speculation is. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:56, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
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:I agree with Sage here. We have to differentiate between unsourced speculation on the one hand, and theories and suggestions proposed by scholars (or notable fans/enthusiasts) on the other hand.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 15:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:11, 15 May 2013

Passes over the Misty Mountains

I have added the possibility of a minor pass north of the High Pass. This can be inferred by this passage from The Fellowship of the Ring's prologue ('Concerning Hobbits'):

"The Fallohides, the least numerous, were a northerly branch ... They crossed the mountains north of Rivendell and came down the River Hoarwell."

If they came down the Mitheithel, it appears reasonable to deduce that a pass must have existed near the source of that river. --Gigoachef 17:05, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Speculation. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 17:15, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
I suggest a different wording: "The Fallohides crossed the mountains north of Rivendell... Whether they used one of those passes or another one it is not known." Sage 20:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Indeed it is speculation, as it was immediately clear from my use of the adverb 'possibly'. Unfortunately, the wording Sage proposes doesn't make much sense as Tolkien states clearly that the Fallohides crossed the mountains "north of Rivendell". So, since all the other known passes are south of Rivendell, the corollary is the existence of an insofar unnamed fourth pass somewhere between the High Pass and Mount Gundabad. My speculation is therefore non only totally reasonable, but in fact essentially implicit in Tolkien's text. If you agree, I propose to restore my text with the addition of an explanatory footnote.--Gigoachef 21:43, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Well I didn't propose the exact wording but I suggested an example for the syntax so as not to seem like the article jumps to non-canonical conclusions. Actually I think that if you simply mention that the Fallohides crossed that point without mentioning the existence of a pass, would be safe enough IMHO. --Sage 22:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone point me to the source in the Legendarium for the existence of a pass in the mountains by the source of the Gladden River? --Gigoachef 21:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

After the Council of Elrond, scouts were sent out to determine where the Black Riders were and if any had survived the flood at the Ford of Bruinen. They went in various directions and "others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel." This pass was not named and seems to not have been considered by the Fellowship as they hiked south. It is in The Fellowship of the Ring, in Book II, Chapter 3 "The Ring Goes South", near the beginning of the chapter (p. 287 in the hardcover Houghton Mifflin Co. edition). --Gamling 22:34, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the exhaustive answer, Gamling. --Gigoachef 18:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I think that settles it then! Sage 10:16, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
No, it doesn't, because the Gladden is south of Rivendell, while Tolkien says that the Fallohides crossed the mountains somewhere north of Rivendell. --Gigoachef 18:36, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sourced speculation

I would like to discuss Ederchil's removal of a note concerning Fonstad, summarizing it as "sourced speculation is still speculation".

Speculation (by editors) in wikis goes with original research and both are avoided. But if we are to avoid any speculation/estimation/calculation by any author, then our problem is not with original research, but with any research in general; and I don't see anything wrong with that. Fonstad was not a fanfic author, nor an artist who worked on an adaptation; she was a professional in her field, therefore her estimation is notable enough to complement an article.

When I added footnotes with Fonstad's, Foster's, Fauskanger's and Salo's estimations and reconstructions, it never came to my attention any policty that I shouldn't, because they are speculations. If we are to remove Fonstad's estimation (and go on with purging such notes and commentaries), we should first discuss it, and perhaps define what speculation is. Sage 12:56, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Sage here. We have to differentiate between unsourced speculation on the one hand, and theories and suggestions proposed by scholars (or notable fans/enthusiasts) on the other hand.--Morgan 15:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)