Tolkien Gateway

Talk:Orcs

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The source field in the box for the orcs is odd and it refers to the template.
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The following external links no longer work:
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The Origin of the Orcs (htm version)
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The Origin of the Orcs (doc version)
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The Origin of the Orcs (pdf version)
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I got: The webpage cannot be found {{unsigned|71.173.181.175}}
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:I solved the problem by deleting it :). It was inappropriate anyway, and the whole article needs to be rewritten. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
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::Which article? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
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:::Oh this article. Too much work to be done by 1.5 persons (= I am doing 0.4 of your work and the rest 0.1 belongs to occasional contributors) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
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::::I won't be doing much either. Just got an angry email that there was a deadline last week. So I got to focus on that first -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
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:::::That's my point... where can we find more contributors? :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
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I edited the "Orcs and Goblins" section heavily to remove unfounded comments about "goblins" being a Hobbitish term when it is, in fact, an English word.  I also cut down on some unfounded claims in the "Controversy" section. [[User:Eldorion|Eldorion]]
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There needs to be a serious section in this article about the culture and ethics of Orcs, and whether Orcs are ultimately free to choose good or evil.  I've seen other wikis touch on this issue, but this article barely does.  A lot of people (myself included) have never been thrilled about the whole "evil race" concept played completely straight.<br/>
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As an entirely personal belief (not something I would expect to put in the article), I think Orcs have the ability to live as good [[Avari]], and that it's the established traditions of Orc culture that inspire evil, and that Elves who do evil and ill-inspired acts (such as [[Fëanor]] and [[Sons of Fëanor|his sons]] along with [[Eöl]] and [[Maeglin]]) essentially make themselves Orcs, and that the difference of appearance between Elves and Orcs ("fair" vs. "ugly") is ultimately meaningless.  The [[Silmarils]] knew the difference, and they burned evil and corruption when it touched them.  I'm not sure Tolkien would completely disagree, as he once said, "We were all Orcs in the Great War."  But I digress... - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 12:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
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:I just (4/5/2011) summarized Letter 153 (a very long summary) for the Tolkien Gateway, wherein Tolkien dug very deeply into the metaphysics of Middle-earth.  On the subject of Orcs, innate Free Will, their "evil race" status, and such, this letter probably gives Tolkien's "clearest" answers. -- Gamling 01:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
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== Origin ==
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I just would like to ask an question in regards to the origin of the orcs. First off I have no preferance either way, be it men or elves, but I would like to raise the point of time. Men awoke at the rising of the sun, so wouldn't this then pose a problem for Melkor when he made the orcs in the first war in Beleriand, for the sake of the elves.? Unless he can time shift and or travel. So then we are left with a rather interesting situation, any thoughts? {{unsigned|GaiusMarius}}
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:Sorry, you've lost me? Do you mean that as Melkor created orcs in opposition to elves he had no "opposite" to men? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
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: This is not an issue.  In Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed (where Tolkien writes at length concerning the cosmology of Arda, and the origins of Orcs), Tolkien shifts the timeline to move the awakening of Men to be not long after that of Elves - during the Great March.  This is actually done for other reasons, but serves to enable Men as a legitimate source for Orcs.  Sorry for being anon, but I don't feel like signing up for an account.  Find me as Túrin at lotrplaza.com if you want. {{unsignedAnon|24.176.44.61}}
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==Etymology and Names==
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JRRT notes the Nandorin word for orcs in PE17 (p. 54) '''''ūriƒ'''''. However, I'm uncertain about how to the render the last letter in the word - the original form of the letter is similar, but does not carry the small horizontal line. Is this a letter of its own, or merely a variant rendering of ƒ? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
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:There is the "[[wikipedia:Long s|long s]]" ''ſ'' (and [[wikipedia:Esh (letter)|the similar Esh]] ''ʃ''). Do these seem likely? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
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::Many thanks, Mith! It's the Esh (''ʃ'') - could you please add it to the insert box? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 09:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
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:::Added both.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:07, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
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== Orc - Rohirric or Westron ==
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Quote: "This '''spelling''' was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning - so far as that is known - is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a '''Common Speech''' form of a word or group of similar words should be ork."
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Quote: "Orc. This is supposed to be the '''Common Speech''' name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be '''retained'''."
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Orc, or rather, the spelling of Orc is '''FROM''' Old English in reality, and the word itself was Westron in Middle-earth, '''NOT''' Rohirric, so I conclude.
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It´s not like the other OE-for-Rohirric words in the LotR. Tolkien just '''retained''' this word from Westron, and where he did translate this 3rd age word, he translated it into Modern English.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 06:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
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:I just found the quote for orc being (also?) Rohirric, "Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan."
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:I undid my previous edit, and I'm sorry for it, but still I think the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section need to be improved.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 07:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
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::OK, good.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
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Seems like I have to put more source to support my argument.
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"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin ... Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork..." --- The Hobbit
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Still no one try to rewrite the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section?
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== "Gong" redirect link ==
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Since the [[Gongs]] have their own article, could it be possible to change the redirect link on [[Gong]] to lead to ''that'' page, instead? [[User:Bauglir100|Bauglir100]] 12:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
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:Done. Although whether Gongs needs a separate article needs to be established, but in the meantime we should be consistent in any case. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:04, 27 January 2013

The following external links no longer work:

The Origin of the Orcs (htm version) The Origin of the Orcs (doc version) The Origin of the Orcs (pdf version)

I got: The webpage cannot be found Unsigned comment by 71.173.181.175 (talk • contribs).

I solved the problem by deleting it :). It was inappropriate anyway, and the whole article needs to be rewritten. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Which article? Sage 12:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh this article. Too much work to be done by 1.5 persons (= I am doing 0.4 of your work and the rest 0.1 belongs to occasional contributors) Sage 12:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I won't be doing much either. Just got an angry email that there was a deadline last week. So I got to focus on that first -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 12:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
That's my point... where can we find more contributors? :) Sage 17:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I edited the "Orcs and Goblins" section heavily to remove unfounded comments about "goblins" being a Hobbitish term when it is, in fact, an English word. I also cut down on some unfounded claims in the "Controversy" section. Eldorion

There needs to be a serious section in this article about the culture and ethics of Orcs, and whether Orcs are ultimately free to choose good or evil. I've seen other wikis touch on this issue, but this article barely does. A lot of people (myself included) have never been thrilled about the whole "evil race" concept played completely straight.
As an entirely personal belief (not something I would expect to put in the article), I think Orcs have the ability to live as good Avari, and that it's the established traditions of Orc culture that inspire evil, and that Elves who do evil and ill-inspired acts (such as Fëanor and his sons along with Eöl and Maeglin) essentially make themselves Orcs, and that the difference of appearance between Elves and Orcs ("fair" vs. "ugly") is ultimately meaningless. The Silmarils knew the difference, and they burned evil and corruption when it touched them. I'm not sure Tolkien would completely disagree, as he once said, "We were all Orcs in the Great War." But I digress... - Gilgamesh 12:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I just (4/5/2011) summarized Letter 153 (a very long summary) for the Tolkien Gateway, wherein Tolkien dug very deeply into the metaphysics of Middle-earth. On the subject of Orcs, innate Free Will, their "evil race" status, and such, this letter probably gives Tolkien's "clearest" answers. -- Gamling 01:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Contents

Origin

I just would like to ask an question in regards to the origin of the orcs. First off I have no preferance either way, be it men or elves, but I would like to raise the point of time. Men awoke at the rising of the sun, so wouldn't this then pose a problem for Melkor when he made the orcs in the first war in Beleriand, for the sake of the elves.? Unless he can time shift and or travel. So then we are left with a rather interesting situation, any thoughts? Unsigned comment by GaiusMarius (talk • contribs).

Sorry, you've lost me? Do you mean that as Melkor created orcs in opposition to elves he had no "opposite" to men? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
This is not an issue. In Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed (where Tolkien writes at length concerning the cosmology of Arda, and the origins of Orcs), Tolkien shifts the timeline to move the awakening of Men to be not long after that of Elves - during the Great March. This is actually done for other reasons, but serves to enable Men as a legitimate source for Orcs. Sorry for being anon, but I don't feel like signing up for an account. Find me as Túrin at lotrplaza.com if you want. Unsigned comment by 24.176.44.61 (talk).

Etymology and Names

JRRT notes the Nandorin word for orcs in PE17 (p. 54) ūriƒ. However, I'm uncertain about how to the render the last letter in the word - the original form of the letter is similar, but does not carry the small horizontal line. Is this a letter of its own, or merely a variant rendering of ƒ? --Morgan 01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

There is the "long s" ſ (and the similar Esh ʃ). Do these seem likely? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Many thanks, Mith! It's the Esh (ʃ) - could you please add it to the insert box? --Morgan 09:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Added both.--Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:07, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Orc - Rohirric or Westron

Quote: "This spelling was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning - so far as that is known - is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a Common Speech form of a word or group of similar words should be ork."

Quote: "Orc. This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained."

Orc, or rather, the spelling of Orc is FROM Old English in reality, and the word itself was Westron in Middle-earth, NOT Rohirric, so I conclude.

It´s not like the other OE-for-Rohirric words in the LotR. Tolkien just retained this word from Westron, and where he did translate this 3rd age word, he translated it into Modern English.--SUM EGO 06:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I just found the quote for orc being (also?) Rohirric, "Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan."
I undid my previous edit, and I'm sorry for it, but still I think the Orcs and Goblins section need to be improved.--SUM EGO 07:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
OK, good.-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  13:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Seems like I have to put more source to support my argument.

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin ... Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork..." --- The Hobbit

Still no one try to rewrite the Orcs and Goblins section?

"Gong" redirect link

Since the Gongs have their own article, could it be possible to change the redirect link on Gong to lead to that page, instead? Bauglir100 12:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Done. Although whether Gongs needs a separate article needs to be established, but in the meantime we should be consistent in any case. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 13:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)