Talk:Smaug - Revision history

Mithrennaith: /* Pronunciation */ Shippey says so, recordings of Tolkien exist

2011-06-08T05:02:01Z

Pronunciation: Shippey says so, recordings of Tolkien exist

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	::::So, in short: if we treat it as an Old Norse name, it's Sm-ow-g. If we treat it as Germanic, I'm not too sure, but probably Sm-ow-g as well. It may need some additional (and if possible, more modern) sources. Maybe do some OR by checking what other contemporary Germanic languages do to the /-aug/? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 09:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)		::::So, in short: if we treat it as an Old Norse name, it's Sm-ow-g. If we treat it as Germanic, I'm not too sure, but probably Sm-ow-g as well. It may need some additional (and if possible, more modern) sources. Maybe do some OR by checking what other contemporary Germanic languages do to the /-aug/? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 09:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
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		+	:::::Tom Shippey pronounces it as Sm-ow-g, or nearly so; that’s good enough for me. And indeed there are recordings available of Tolkien reading from [[The Hobbit]] — I’m sure Smaug is mentioned somewhere in the recorded fragments and I’ll find out how he says it. — [[User:Mithrennaith\|Mithrennaith]] 05:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

	{{references}}		{{references}}

Ederchil: /* Pronunciation */

2011-06-07T09:41:57Z

Pronunciation

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	:::I third. The pronunciation table of Appendix E is obviously not relevant for pseudo-Old Norse. A quick search on the net gets more results for "smowg" than "smog", but never a source. They sometimes point to Fauskanger's Mannish article on Ardalambion, but it only discusses the origins of the name, not the pronunciation; it's just a rehash of [[Letter 25]].		:::I third. The pronunciation table of Appendix E is obviously not relevant for pseudo-Old Norse. A quick search on the net gets more results for "smowg" than "smog", but never a source. They sometimes point to Fauskanger's Mannish article on Ardalambion, but it only discusses the origins of the name, not the pronunciation; it's just a rehash of [[Letter 25]].
	:::I'm not sure if Tolkien ever pronounced the name. However, looking at its roots, we should probably consult an Old Norse pronunciation guide or something for this. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)		:::I'm not sure if Tolkien ever pronounced the name. However, looking at its roots, we should probably consult an Old Norse pronunciation guide or something for this. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
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		+	::::Henry Adams Bellows' 1936 edition of ''The Poetic Edda'' has a pronunciation guide. It does say some of the sounds are approximations or conjecture, but doesn't say which ones.
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		+	::::It lists "au - as ''ou'' in 'out'".<ref>Henry Adams Bellows, ''The Poetic Edda'', "Pronouncing Index of Proper Names", p. 558</ref> It does not mention if the sound depends on the consonant following it (for example, is /-aug/ different from /-aut/ or /-aum/?) /-Aug/ is an attested ending in Old Norse, see [[wikipedia:Aslaug\|Aslaug]].
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		+	::::"Smaug" is unattested "Germanic",<ref>{{L\|25}}</ref> presumably what we would call Proto-Germanic. I can't find a (hypothetical/conjectural) pronunciation guide for PGmc.
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		+	::::So, in short: if we treat it as an Old Norse name, it's Sm-ow-g. If we treat it as Germanic, I'm not too sure, but probably Sm-ow-g as well. It may need some additional (and if possible, more modern) sources. Maybe do some OR by checking what other contemporary Germanic languages do to the /-aug/? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 09:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
		+
		+	{{references}}

Ederchil at 12:18, 5 June 2011

2011-06-05T12:18:31Z

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	Is there any instance of Tolkien saying "Smaug" on tape? Can we be 100% certain about the pronunciation of this? Although AppE says "au" makes an "ow" sound as in "how" (not an "aw" sound as in "thaw"), if you read it carefully that paragraph applies to Quenya and Sindarin pronunciations.		Is there any instance of Tolkien saying "Smaug" on tape? Can we be 100% certain about the pronunciation of this? Although AppE says "au" makes an "ow" sound as in "how" (not an "aw" sound as in "thaw"), if you read it carefully that paragraph applies to Quenya and Sindarin pronunciations.

−	If we can't be sure we should take ~~our~~ the IPA at the top and the spoken file because they amount to one editor's view. If pronunciation is a matter of interpretation, we should honestly say so. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)	+	If we can't be sure we should take out the IPA at the top and the spoken file because they amount to one editor's view. If pronunciation is a matter of interpretation, we should honestly say so. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

	:I say, remove the pronunciation until it is referenced.--[[User:Morgan\|Morgan]] 11:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)		:I say, remove the pronunciation until it is referenced.--[[User:Morgan\|Morgan]] 11:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

	::I second that. --[[User:Amroth\|Amroth]] 11:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)		::I second that. --[[User:Amroth\|Amroth]] 11:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
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		+	:::I third. The pronunciation table of Appendix E is obviously not relevant for pseudo-Old Norse. A quick search on the net gets more results for "smowg" than "smog", but never a source. They sometimes point to Fauskanger's Mannish article on Ardalambion, but it only discusses the origins of the name, not the pronunciation; it's just a rehash of [[Letter 25]].
		+	:::I'm not sure if Tolkien ever pronounced the name. However, looking at its roots, we should probably consult an Old Norse pronunciation guide or something for this. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Amroth: /* Pronunciation */ +1 for removing

2011-06-05T11:57:51Z

Pronunciation: +1 for removing

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	:I say, remove the pronunciation until it is referenced.--[[User:Morgan\|Morgan]] 11:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)		:I say, remove the pronunciation until it is referenced.--[[User:Morgan\|Morgan]] 11:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
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		+	::I second that. --[[User:Amroth\|Amroth]] 11:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Morgan: /* Pronunciation */

2011-06-05T11:47:00Z

Pronunciation

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:47, 5 June 2011
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	If we can't be sure we should take our the IPA at the top and the spoken file because they amount to one editor's view. If pronunciation is a matter of interpretation, we should honestly say so. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)		If we can't be sure we should take our the IPA at the top and the spoken file because they amount to one editor's view. If pronunciation is a matter of interpretation, we should honestly say so. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
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		+	:I say, remove the pronunciation until it is referenced.--[[User:Morgan\|Morgan]] 11:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Mith: /* Pronunciation */ new section

2011-06-05T09:58:35Z

Pronunciation: new section

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	I'm considering a major rewrite of this article. As written, it goes well beyond the role of Smaug in [[The Hobbit]], and if there's any background for Smaug outside ''The Hobbit'', it's not included here. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)		I'm considering a major rewrite of this article. As written, it goes well beyond the role of Smaug in [[The Hobbit]], and if there's any background for Smaug outside ''The Hobbit'', it's not included here. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)
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		+	== Pronunciation ==
		+
		+	Is there any instance of Tolkien saying "Smaug" on tape? Can we be 100% certain about the pronunciation of this? Although AppE says "au" makes an "ow" sound as in "how" (not an "aw" sound as in "thaw"), if you read it carefully that paragraph applies to Quenya and Sindarin pronunciations.
		+
		+	If we can't be sure we should take our the IPA at the top and the spoken file because they amount to one editor's view. If pronunciation is a matter of interpretation, we should honestly say so. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Narfil Palùrfalas at 23:16, 31 October 2006

2006-10-31T23:16:30Z

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	:: Thanks, [[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]]. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)		:: Thanks, [[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]]. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)
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		+	:::Um, I already put that in the article. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas\|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:16, 31 October 2006 (EST)

	I'm considering a major rewrite of this article. As written, it goes well beyond the role of Smaug in [[The Hobbit]], and if there's any background for Smaug outside ''The Hobbit'', it's not included here. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)		I'm considering a major rewrite of this article. As written, it goes well beyond the role of Smaug in [[The Hobbit]], and if there's any background for Smaug outside ''The Hobbit'', it's not included here. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)

Ted C: danke

2006-10-31T22:40:29Z

danke

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	:''"My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"'' - ''The Hobbit'', Ch. 12 'Inside Information'.		:''"My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"'' - ''The Hobbit'', Ch. 12 'Inside Information'.
	:--[[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]] 16:52, 31 October 2006 (EST)		:--[[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]] 16:52, 31 October 2006 (EST)
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		+	:: Thanks, [[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]]. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)
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		+	I'm considering a major rewrite of this article. As written, it goes well beyond the role of Smaug in [[The Hobbit]], and if there's any background for Smaug outside ''The Hobbit'', it's not included here. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)

Earendilyon at 21:52, 31 October 2006

2006-10-31T21:52:55Z

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	I would have liked to include Smaug's own quote describing himself -- "My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are like swords..." etc. -- but I don't have the book handy and it wasn't a quick find online.		I would have liked to include Smaug's own quote describing himself -- "My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are like swords..." etc. -- but I don't have the book handy and it wasn't a quick find online.
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		+	:''"My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"'' - ''The Hobbit'', Ch. 12 'Inside Information'.
		+	:--[[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]] 16:52, 31 October 2006 (EST)

Ted C: quoting

2006-10-31T20:56:10Z

quoting

New page

I would have liked to include Smaug's own quote describing himself -- "My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are like swords..." etc. -- but I don't have the book handy and it wasn't a quick find online.

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	:: Thanks, [[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]]. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)		:: Thanks, [[User:Earendilyon\|Earendilyon]]. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)
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		+	:::Um, I already put that in the article. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas\|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:16, 31 October 2006 (EST)

	I'm considering a major rewrite of this article. As written, it goes well beyond the role of Smaug in [[The Hobbit]], and if there's any background for Smaug outside ''The Hobbit'', it's not included here. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)		I'm considering a major rewrite of this article. As written, it goes well beyond the role of Smaug in [[The Hobbit]], and if there's any background for Smaug outside ''The Hobbit'', it's not included here. --[[User:Ted C\|Ted C]] 17:40, 31 October 2006 (EST)