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Talk:Tengwar

Revision as of 18:48, 6 October 2011 by Ederchil (Talk | contribs)
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Down under "Non-Unicode" on this page it says "It should look similar to the picture at the top of the page.", however there is no image at the top of the page? Unsigned comment by 210.190.195.90 (talk • contribs).

Hello there, I've gone ahead and removed the statement for the time being; if you have the font installed the letters should look similar to these --Hyarion 11:38, 4 March 2007 (EST)

Contents

[edit] scope of the article

The article apart being a copy from Wikipedia, it is written totally from 'out of universe' scope. I suggest some rewrite. Sage 13:01, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

There are a lot of Wiki articles still around, and unfortunately, they're difficult to track. As for the rewrite of this article, I'm currently busy on tengwar. That's basically because I disagree with KingAragorn's way too simple (and downright incorrect) tengwar tool. I'll see if I can pour it into something of an article, but it may take some time. -- Ederchil 15:26, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
Well I can do most of it myself, and it would be better if you give me some framework of how it should be :) Sage 17:30, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
What I think should be there:
  • Introduction
  • History
  • Use
  • Modes
    • Quenya Tengwar
    • Sindarin Tengwar
    • Mode of Beleriand
    • Westron Tengwar
    • English Tengwar[1]
      • Phonemic
      • Orthographic
  • A full chart (this would include the extra tengwar found in Parma Eldalamberon 17)
  • Layout of a tengwa
  • Something about the DTS [2]
  • Anything you can think of
  • Portrayal in adaptations (use in adaptations, rather)
(not necessarily in this order)
And if you do the rewrite, you have dibs on the opening quote and a picture. -- Ederchil 01:48, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Ok did a major rearrangement. I think each mode should have a distinct article. The general article should discuss the 'General Use Mode' Sage 13:57, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Mellonath Daeron

"Mellonath Daeron, the linguistic fan society"... maybe "Mellonath Daeron, the linguistic group of the Swedish Tolkien Society Forodrim" is better. -- Ederchil 16:21, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Eregion and the 'general use'

While it is true that Isildur's Scroll mentions Eregion along with the Ring Inscription, it does not say that the mode of the Ring Inscription was a mode of Eregion. So I think the conclusion that the 'general use' was a mode of Eregion is not compulsory. What Isildur said is: "It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion". I conceed that this might refer to the mode. However, I think it could as well refer to the script without reference to any particular mode, but to the overall style of the calligraphy. If we keep in mind that the 'general use' was probably the mode being used in Númenor, why should Isildur relate it to Eregion then? The mode would just be the one he'd be most familiar with and wouldn't require any special attention. He is indeed perfectly able to read it, unlike Frodo. Machsna 13:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Sound observations. Since Tolkien left these details vague, perhaps we shouldn't deduce our constructed history in the article. Just summarize some possibilities and leave it as neutral as possible. Sage 18:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabetical order

I found the article confusing because no alphabetical order is given. Does one exist? --  Myrtonos  forum  c   ec  08:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean the tengwar themselves should be listed in (English) alphabetical order?; the table of tengwar is the one published in The Lord of the Rings so is copied from that. It would probably be useful to have some kind of Tengwar English article, but listing the tengwar alphabetically may not be entirely useful as a single tengwa can represent two letters (and in other languages three) whilst other English letters are entirely unrepresented (e.g. "c" which treated as an "s", "k" or within a "ch" cluster). --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:50, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Code 2000, 2001, 2002

In an attempt to download code 2000, I think that the website given www.code2000.net is incorrect, or has been made redundant. Also, when trying to download any of these codes, I don't think that you can download them any more. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it might be a good idea to remove all links that reference this or that use it in the page. Unsigned comment by Glorfindel Elf-Lord‎ (talk • contribs).

Thanks for pointing out the problem! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:11, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Declaration of Human Rights

The Declaration written in Tengwar has several flaws. I'm by far not an expert but for example all "th" are actually represented by an Anto and not a Súle (such being "dh" essentially). Also Christopher Tolkien uses a dot as the tehtar for "e" and a ´ for "i". The featured tengwar does it the other way round (and sometimes mixes them up, e.g. in "are"). Last but not least, it seems the text has not been written manually but made by some online tool. This ends up in a weird spelling (which seems reasonable considering pronunciation, though). E.g. "towards" is spelled "touards". I have to admit that Tolkien's writings in tengwar include some oddities (having a single tengwa for the word "of" is my favourite) and when writing Tengwar compromisses have to be made, since the Tengwar is not really suited for our languages, but I think we shouldn't try to complicate things here. If someone tried to read this stuff, they might become utterly confused.

Unfortunately I fail to edit the article. If I try to replace the code, everything's gone. Therefore I'll paste the code here. Feel free to check for errors.

j# 9t&5# w`Bx$_ 6EO w7Y5 e7~B 2{ zTj# 5$ 2x$51F`Û 2{ 6v$1+-= 3hG 6EO 2{%yYO2 y4$ 6]G85^ 2{ z5^8z`V5%8zO 2{ d`Nj2 zE1 1yY7E2+ 5^( 5#3YO6 5$ `C 8q7R1R W w73Y6T9~N2-=

--Thalion 14:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I feel more comfortable removing the passage altogether. If we want to demonstrate how written Tengwar look, we'd best use a canonical example, like the King's Letter. Our own transliteration of other text cannot be fully flawless. This is an encyclopedia. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
+1 Ederchil.--Morgan 16:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  17:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Good idea actually. I suggest to also add the transcript of Namárië from the cover of "The Road goes ever on". The King's Letter is written the Beleriandic mode and therefore not really suited to display the 'classical' Tengwar mode. Anyone knows if there's something written in Sindarin, too? --Thalion 18:36, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
There are three versions of the King's letter, I don't think they're all Beleriandic.
We can use Namárië for Quenya examples. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)