Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/28 September 2008/Transcript
<Hyarion> okay, and thus begins the next September 28th edition of our weekly wiki meeting.
<Hyarion> In attendance this week: Ederchil, Hyarion, KingAragorn, and Mith
<Hyarion> Does anyone have anything to say before we start topics on the agenda?
<Ederchil> yeah. small agenda
<Hyarion> I'd like to apologize for my lack of activity this week as school/work has been keeping me so busy, but I'm almost done with a few clients so I should be able to get back soon.
<Hyarion> okay then, Ederchil is first up with "I've got some final questions concerning References and cite templates. "
<Ederchil> Well, it's basically finishing up
<Ederchil> So I start with the main one: the smaller works don't have chapters
<Ederchil> how do we cite them?
<Hyarion> hm, which smaller works are we talking about?
<Ederchil> the non-arda ones
<Ederchil> Giles, Smith
<Hyarion> hm, and I suppose none of them come published with paragraph numbers?
<Ederchil> nope. currently, the only example is Master Cook
<Ederchil> I'm not really happy with that method
<Hyarion> hm, what is ibid?
<Ederchil> definately not with the Ibid.'s
<Ederchil> "same place"
<Ederchil> but page numbers just don't work
<Hyarion> yea, I see your point
<Hyarion> maybe just cite the book and leave it at that?
<Ederchil> also, in light of this article,
<Ederchil> notes before or after the period?
<Ederchil> I say before
<Hyarion> yea, before works
<Ederchil> and quotation marks?
<Ederchil> don't know whether that's an American-English/British English thing
<Mith> Are you talking about where to cite
<Mith> I was told you MUST do it after the punctuation mark
<Mith> And the entirety of Wikipedia does it that way
<Ederchil> I favour "fact"[note].
<Ederchil> that order
<KingAragorn> yeah i've been told it's after.
<Hyarion> which standards say before period?
<Ederchil> common sense?
<Ederchil> the note belongs to the end of that sentence, not the beginning of the next
<Ederchil> oh, Chicago has end of sentence
<Ederchil> mith - didn't know about wikipedia.
<Ederchil> shall we call it a grey area then?
<Ederchil> doesn't really matter, as long as it is sourced?
<Hyarion> well, we might as well set a standard for uniformity
<Hyarion> if the majority of standards/Wikipedia say after the period, then I suppose we should stick with that
<Ederchil> then I'm not going to push something merely out of personal fancy
<Ederchil> after it is
<Ederchil> quotation marks? before the period?
<Ederchil> since the period is not quoted from the original?
<Hyarion> well, if the quote ends in a period then I think the standard is to include it in the quotation, otherwise maybe "said Frodo ..."
<Mith> I think quotation marks is a British/American difference
<Ederchil> yeah, thouht so
<Mith> Because Americans punctuate within the quotation marks
<Mith> Whereas the British punctuate outside the quotation marks.
<Ederchil> yeah. I favour the latter, personally. but if it's dialectical, it shouldn't be an issue
<Mith> And will punctuate outside quotation marks even when there is punctuation inside
<Mith> For instance
<Mith> Ederchil asked, "since the period is not quoted from the original?".
<Hyarion> I don't think, at least in the US, we would put a period after that.
<Ederchil> well, that's settled then...
<KingAragorn> I would but microsoft word makes its own mind up
<Mith> Us Brits need to stick to together!
<Ederchil> Me Dutchy will stick with the Brits...
<Mith> I say as we live in the country of origin of English would should have the moral high-grown on punctuation
<KingAragorn> I think I would say I am very good at puntuation
<KingAragorn> and spelling but the internet and computers makes me get mixed with with US versions of words
<Mith> Shame we don't have the moral high-ground with regards to successfully processing thoughts into motor function.
<Ederchil> can we get back to the point?
<Mith> I say, British convention
<Ederchil> next issue - quickcite
<Ederchil> yes, Hyarion, I'll have to pull you out of the lobby -
<Ederchil> any chance ME-cite or something similar is coming soon?
<Hyarion> as soon as I get a chance to build it
<Ederchil> when it's implemented, the new system will be enforced?
<Ederchil> I mean, actively advertised?
<Hyarion> of course
<Ederchil> a banner at the top "don't forget your references"?
<Hyarion> exactly, and we'll just revert something if it doesn't have a reference
<Ederchil> well, we'd have to catch up on unsourced stuff first, then
<Ederchil> but closing the tap is a good way to start mopping
<Ederchil> then I'm finished with my "some questions"
<Ederchil> anyone else has questions?
<Hyarion> might as well move onto the next question :) "A discussion of Help namespace: what is needed, besides References? "
<Ederchil> like the question says
<Ederchil> I think Help: Contents should be a hub of help pages
<Ederchil> it's not really help now
<Ederchil> just Standards
<Mith> I've actually personally thinking about how much work the Help sections need. I think we need a Portal.
<Hyarion> agreed, it should at the very least link to the other help pages we have created.
<Ederchil> Maybe a navbox?
<Ederchil> on the right?
<Mith> I'm in favour
<Ederchil> any new help pages needed?
<Hyarion> I like the navbox idea
<Mith> Was Help: Canon made?
<Ederchil> I'm thinking of "Help: Contributing" and "Help:Dates"
<Hyarion> and rewrite the Help:Contents to just be a general help area
<Ederchil> Canon would be TG namespace
<Mith> Oh right
<Ederchil> Maybe "Help: New Pages"
<Hyarion> possibly even Help:Infoboxes
<Mith> I think we just need to accurately lay down all the things we know in our heads what to do.
<Ederchil> With big letters: check what's already there!
<Mith> I think we need Help:Userpages
<Ederchil> agree with infoboxes - I had a Help: Templates in mind
<Mith> People seem to not grasp it.
<Ederchil> Especially not Bilboyo
<Ederchil> Help: User page, Dates, Infoboxes... what else?
<Hyarion> Templates would be great, we might even be able to put Infoboxes in there
<Ederchil> dates is for when we move the shore calendar to the gregorian
<Ederchil> templates would be about infoboxes, maintenance templates and navboxes
<Mith> I can't think of anymore at the moment
<KingAragorn> we need to have a proper debate regarding canon and form a policy everyone is happy with
<KingAragorn> but not now
<Mith> What about Help:Forum to tell people what the Forum is actually for
<Ederchil> good one
<Mith> Although, since the weekly meetings I have found the Forum has lessened in importance for myself
<Ederchil> the forum is for not-regular meeters
<Hyarion> I need to increase that font size that says it isn't for general Tolkien discussions :)
<Ederchil> no help page then?
<KingAragorn> why shouldn't it be? you mean the bombadil discussion shouldn't really be there?
<Hyarion> no it shouldn't
<Ederchil> it's supposed to be at Talk: Tom Bombadil
<Hyarion> if we wanted to have the argument at Talk:Tom Bombadil to discuss what should be written in the article that would be fine
<Hyarion> but once we start a general Tolkien forum, we lose the support of all the other Tolkien forums because we're not a competitor
<Hyarion> once we can offer something unique in a Tolkien forum, then we can focus on that, but for now I think it's best to leave it just for wiki-related discussions
<KingAragorn> we have support from tolkien forums?
<Hyarion> of course
<Ederchil> all except TORn?
<Hyarion> well, yea :p
<Hyarion> anyone have any other topics for discussion?
<Mith> Not been thinking about TG much this week, to be honest.
<Ederchil> me neither
<Ederchil> well, better finish Rosie and OED next week...
<Hyarion> not sure if everyone has been following the lobby but it sounds like Tolkien Library will be hosting a chat with Alan Lee in a couple weeks, hopefully we can have that here, that would be nice.
<Ederchil> have been semi-following
<Ederchil> sounds great
<KingAragorn> yeah sounds good
<Hyarion> okay, well I guess that concludes the meeting, we'll see everyone here next week.