Tolkien Gateway

Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/6 February 2011/Transcript

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[[Category:Tolkien Gateway Meeting Transcripts|{{#time:Y m d|{{#titleparts: {{PAGENAME}}| 1 | 2 }}}}]]

Revision as of 14:59, 6 July 2011

<&Mith> Welcome, one and all, to Tolkien Gateway's 17th meeting. Ederchil, Eldarion (Telcontar), Hyarion, KingAragorn, Mith, Mithrennaith and Morgan are all in attendance.
<Morgan> Thank you!
<&Mith> The first item on the agenda is Myrtone's (who's not here), suggest to install the OpenID extension.
<Ederchil> care to explain it a little?
<&Mith> This will allow anyone with an OpenID to access TG without having to sign up. OpenID providers include AOL, BBC,[2] Google,[3] IBM, MySpace, Orange, PayPal, VeriSign, LiveJournal, and Yahoo! (according to Wikipedia).
<Morgan> Facebook?
<&Mith> No
<Morgan> Ok
<&Mith> To be honest, I think even if people have an OpenID they're not often aware of it.
<mithrennaith> I think that is quite likely, yes.
<Eldarion> and most people want to choose a custom Tolkien-related username for TG
<Morgan> True.
<mithrennaith> That too.
<Morgan> Like "Morgan"
<&Mith> So I think the benefit is marginal considering the technical faffing around.
<mithrennaith> agree
<Eldarion> i said most^^
<Ederchil> agreed
<Eldarion> agree
<Morgan> +1
<&Mith> So are we against it?
<Ederchil> yes
<mithrennaith> y
<Eldarion> jep
<Morgan> yep
<&Mith> OK
<&Mith> Myrtone's second suggestion was to install the LiquidThreads extension for the Forum and all talk pages.
<&Mith> You can see it, here: http://liquidthreads.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:LiquidThreads_testing
<Eldarion> would that solve our forum problems?
<&Mith> (All those topics are all on ONE talk page.)
<Eldarion> omg
<Morgan> Is it still in beta-phase?
<&Mith> Yes, still beta
<&Mith> But, it is used on some Wikimedia projects so it's not entirely untested
<Morgan> Do we know what is causing our current problem with the forum?
<&Mith> I just think it's over-solving a problem, to be honest
<mithrennaith> Tend to agree with Mith
<&Mith> We haven't got a problem with the layout of threads at the moment, we have a problem with displaying what threads there are. This wouldn't solve that problem unless we converted the whole Forum into one talk page.
<Eldarion> yes, agree
<mithrennaith> What’s standing in the way of solving our current forum problem?
<Ederchil> tend to agree with mith
<mithrennaith> I see KA has dropped off the chat ...
<&Mith> I have been unable to locate the problem with the current forum
<mithrennaith> Hyarion?
<&Mith> I have a hunch that tags don't work
<Morgan> Hyarion, do you have any idea?
<mithrennaith> In general, or specific?
<mithrennaith> Tags, I mean
<&Mith> <forum> <createbox> <rss> <show>/<hide> <googlemaps> <youtube> have all refused to work
<mithrennaith> Ah.
<&Mith> Noticed I replace <youtube> with a parserfunction ("{{#ev youtube|BALBLA}}") and it worked
<mithrennaith> No longer supported in new wiki software?
<&Mith> I think there's some messing it up along the way. The only fly in the ointment is that <imagemap> does work.
<mithrennaith> Or did and do they need some extension that is not available for new software?
<&Mith> I did wonder if it's a skin problem, as the skins are a bit outdated with regards to the new software (which is what was caused some of the previous problems)
<mithrennaith> Could be ... it still feels a bit foggy to me.
<Eldarion> have you tried things with another skin?
<&Mith> To be honest, it is.
<&Mith> I'm a bit foggy
<mithrennaith> ;)
<&Mith> Eldarion: all skins are old, and none of this stuff worked on any of them
<Eldarion> oka
<&Mith> OK, moving on
<mithrennaith> where do we go with this?
<&Mith> I put on the agenda that we should perhaps look at other alternatives for forums
<mithrennaith> Yes, I noticed.
<Morgan> I wouldn't mind an external forum. Would be great when TG is down.
<&Mith> There's this: http://wiki.anotherwebcom.com/Special:AWCforum/
<&Mith> Or this: http://unidentify.com/mediawiki/index.php5/Special:WikiForum
<&Mith> The problem with both of them is that they would not work with our current forum, and, as you can see from the URLs, they are all one special page
<mithrennaith> Yes.
<mithrennaith> Point is - if we don’t solve the problem with our current forum, should we go elsewhere, or make do with what we have.
<&Mith> TBH I don't really *like* these options as they don't solve the problme
<&Mith> I/We might be able to get the forum to work in the near future
<mithrennaith> I like the *look* of either, especially WikiForum, but what I’m looking for is a working forum.
<&Mith> So I'm a bit reluctant to commit to replacing what we've got; I think we should be aware of the options
<mithrennaith> Yes.
<mithrennaith> I concur in that.
<&Mith> I phpBB forum or something similar could be an option
<&Mith> Hyarion, do you have any thoughts on that?
<mithrennaith> phpBB - working separately from the wiki, you mean?
<Eldarion> we could install a simple php forum on the webspace of tg
<mithrennaith> Possible, yes.
<Morgan> I have a phpBB forum for my Realms of Arda web site. It works fine.
<Ederchil> phpBB might work; though I prefer an on-site option
<Eldarion> but an on-site option would overwrite the current forum threads
<mithrennaith> I frequent several phpBB fora, generally positive.
<mithrennaith> Overwrite? not necessarily.
<Ederchil> I have experience with them too
<Eldarion> at least the two mith pointed out did
<mithrennaith> Mith’s options use a special page, while the old forum would continue to reside in the Forum namespace
<&Mith> I think we've all probably installed/customised/ran/used phpBB so we have no problems on that front
<Eldarion> ah, okay
<&Mith> Yes, just to clarify, it would make our current forum redundant
<&Mith> Divorcing old forum from new forum
<mithrennaith> I’ve never installed a phpBB, but have some experience as a mod and discussing problems with admin’s on a shadow forum, so I know what the admin console looks like.
<Eldarion> okay, so the question is: on-site forum or separate phpbb-like forum
<&Mith> On-site
<mithrennaith> Well, my first preference would be getting the onwiki-forum to work properly again --
<Ederchil> I am an admin on one, though I never bothered to look at the console
<&Mith> We could just put this decision off
<&Mith> leave it as something to think about?
<mithrennaith> -- failing that my second preference is a phpBB sitting in a separate part of the webspace.
<Morgan> Yeah, I think Hyarion would have to say something about it too.
<mithrennaith> agree put off, but not too long.
<&Mith> I want current forum to work, my second preference would be the WikiForum extrension
<Eldarion> putting off sounds reasonable
<mithrennaith> I could live with that as well.
<mithrennaith> Advantage is that is sits in wiki-space.
<&Mith> Well, we can pencil it in for next month. I've been quite active in getting stuff sorted so I hope that I might have fixed it by then
<mithrennaith> Good.
<mithrennaith> Second that.
<Ederchil> okay
<&Mith> Before then, though, do we want to mention our preferences, or shall we just move on now?
<Morgan> My first pref is an off-site forum.
<Ederchil> Mine is on-site
<mithrennaith> !terminology: on/off-site vs on/off-wiki, do we all understand each other?
<Ederchil> *on-wiki
<&Mith> I think on-wiki probably wins it
<mithrennaith> I think so too.
<&Mith> So we'll be looking at options in that area. Sorry Morgan!
<Morgan> I hate democracy.. ;-)
<mithrennaith> someone might summarize the options on next meetings agenda ...
<&Mith> I shall
<mithrennaith> fine.
<Morgan> Let's move on!
<mithrennaith> +1
<&Mith> OK, moving on - as KA isn't here I'm going to leave his stuff till the end in the hope he turns up - namespace aliases.
<mithrennaith> yep.
<&Mith> Basically, a namespace alias is another way of typing in a namespace but it isn't an on-wiki redirect
<&Mith> E.g.
<&Mith> TG:Sandbox would take you automatically to Tolkien Gateway:Sandbox
<mithrennaith> I’m in favour - your table looks quite logically to me.
<&Mith> I think these would be supremely useful in saving have to type!
<Morgan> Any disadvantages?
<Ederchil> In favour, but it has no priority for me
<&Mith> No disadvsantages I think of
<&Mith> It would take me about 1 minute to arrange
<mithrennaith> But if we carry your proposal for a ‘Contents’ namespace, we might have a conflict for C and CT ...
<Morgan> A no-brainer? I'm all for it
<&Mith> It was Contents or Index
<&Mith> Eldarion, Hyarion, any thoughts?
<Ederchil> Contents? Would this move all pages out of mainspace?
<mithrennaith> No, think Table of Contents
<Ederchil> okay. for a moment I was all worried
<mithrennaith> At least that’s what I understand.
<mithrennaith> Hyarion is keeping schtumm.
<Eldarion> i think it's a good to keep links short so if it hasn't any disadvantages..
<mithrennaith> that’s what I think.
<&Mith> OK, moving swifty on to Contents:/Index:
<mithrennaith> yes.
<&Mith> Basically, EOA has a supremely easy navigational system
<&Mith> Of which I am jealous
<Morgan> The drop-down menus?
<Morgan> (or what you call them...)
<Eldarion> sorry: EOA?
<&Mith> Basically, Contents:/Index: could be used for these massive lists of articles, especially to replace our rather pathetic Special:PrefIndex e.g. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/T
<Eldarion> ah
<Hyarion> Encyclopedia of Arda
<Eldarion> thx
<&Mith> We couldn't do the the drop downs without a new skin
<&Mith> However, we could say "Find all men HERE (Contents:Men)"
<Eldarion> so you want to organize our articles by categories?
<mithrennaith> Don’t we already have ‘Categories’ for that?
<&Mith> Yes, however, categories are way too subdivided
<mithrennaith> True - but we can always maintain a second category tree EncyclArda style.
<Hyarion> Why not an article called List of Men?
<mithrennaith> But I can understand there would be an advantage in having a separate namespace for the second category tree.
<&Mith> Because it's not really an article
<mithrennaith> Lists have a habit of cluttering up main namespace with what doesn’t really belong there.
<&Mith> It's not really a main space page, that's my thinking
<mithrennaith> i.e., what Mith says.
<Eldarion> i like the idea, mith
<Hyarion> I guess I'm just partial to the way Wikipedia does it.
<Ederchil> I'm still not sure what to think of this
<Eldarion> so we could design our own table of contents
<mithrennaith> Yes, well, I think the many-branched WikiPedia style category tree should remain, and has an important function.
<mithrennaith> And it should be maintained properly.
<mithrennaith> But this could be a second content-indexing-approach next to that.
<Eldarion> and we could establish another category tree designed for the users to find things faster
<&Mith> Yeah, the benefit of this system is that it leaves the categories untouched, but each Contents: page is like a supercategory of everything
<mithrennaith> I’m beginning to like it ...
<Morgan> I'm not very techie, so I don't really follow ... in any case, in what whay would this be different from adding the category "Elves by name" to an individual article on an Elf?
<Morgan> *way
<mithrennaith> I think the main problem is that it would mislead less experienced editors into adding all categories of the WikiPedia style category tree on articles as well --
<mithrennaith> -- thereby ruining that category tree.
<mithrennaith> and seriously hampering any attempts to keep it in proper repair.
<mithrennaith> So to avoid that, a separate namespace would be an advantage.
<&Mith> For large contents
<mithrennaith> But it should really be able to work in the same way as categories.
<&Mith> E.g. Men, Hobbits, Years
<&Mith> Wouldn't have to keep pressing "(next 200)"
<mithrennaith> Is that technically possible?
<&Mith> Especially if we had Contents:A
<Hyarion> so the point of a Contents namespace is primarily due to Categories only displaying 200 listings per page?
<&Mith> It's a number of reasons
<mithrennaith> Or would it work more like an article namespace, with lists of wikilinks?
<Eldarion> ja
<Eldarion> sry, wrong window
<&Mith> It would work like an article with a list of wikilinks, that was my thinking
<mithrennaith> Ik dacht al ...
<&Mith> It keeps the current categories untouched
<mithrennaith> (aside to Eldarion)
<&Mith> It provides easy navigation
<&Mith> A one-stop shop
<Hyarion> How do other wiki's handle this problem?
<&Mith> I have no idea.
<mithrennaith> No real idea either ...
<&Mith> Perhaps some wikis don't subcategorise as much as we (or Wikipedia) do
<mithrennaith> Possibly.
<mithrennaith> But then you get ‘(next 200)’ very quickly.
<&Mith> I'm not feeling much enthusiasm
<mithrennaith> So I think many wiki’s would tend to use lists.
<Morgan> So, if I understand it correctly, you search for "Contents Elves: A", and then you get a list of all Elves which start on the letter A?
<Hyarion> I'm sure we could modify the category display limit if that's the main problem
<&Mith> Morgan, either Contents:A or Contents:Elves
<&Mith> If you're looking for Arwen, say
<mithrennaith> As I said, I’m warming to Mith’s argument --
<&Mith> Well, Hyarion, that wouldn't solve the problem as we subcategorise too much
<mithrennaith> -- but my problem is rather, is it a namespace for large lists we want, or a second category tree?
<Morgan> Mith: how would the wiki software know which articles to list in the "Contents:Elves"?
<mithrennaith> Because there is a great advantage to indexing articles by putting on category tags.
<Hyarion> Morgan, it would have to be manually edited.
<mithrennaith> And without these for the second tree, I have the same question as Morgan.
<mithrennaith> Exactly.
<mithrennaith> And that takes a lot of maintenance.
<Morgan> So you add something like Contents:Elves at the bottom of an article on Elves?
<&Mith> No, you have to edit the article Contents:Elves
<mithrennaith> Exactly ;)
<Hyarion> I'd rather see the articles just get added to all the necessary categories, so Arwen would show up in Category:Elves,
<mithrennaith> Put links to all the articles on elves in it.
<Morgan> I see,
<&Mith> To be honest, though, I think the main benefit was for replacing Special:PrefIndex:A, B, C, D, etc.
<Hyarion> so would we have a Contents:A article?
<&Mith> Yes
<Hyarion> that would take a lot of updating :)
<&Mith> Well, not really
<&Mith> Not once its done
<Morgan> Would it work automatically, in contrast to Contents:Elves?
<&Mith> It would take a lot of work to make (and I have no problem with doing that), but once it's done we don't have that many new articles to make it such a massive ordeal
<&Mith> Morgan: no
<mithrennaith> Well, as long as editors can’t learn to fix all the links when they rename or redirect an article, it would still add a lot of maintenance ... ;)
<Morgan> I tend to agree with Hyarion, there's a risk that the Contents:X will not be updated, and then you would rather use Special:PrefIndex anyway...?
<&Mith> Can we vote on it?
<Morgan> In any case I don't have any strong opinion on this, I wouldn't if it got implemented.
<Hyarion> It might be advantageous to see if the Special page can be modified to suit our needs as opposed to generating manual updating for something that is done with automatically.
<Morgan> *mind
<mithrennaith> I tend to agree with Hyarion on that last point.
<Morgan> Vote: I feel I'm not techincally competent enough to vote on this.
<Ederchil> Vote: Agree with Morgan
<Eldarion> i think i agree as well
<Morgan> I would rather leave it to the techincally-minded admins ;-)
<Morgan> *technically
<Eldarion> unless it would be like a table of contents that we edit in order to create kind of a menu structure
<Eldarion> but it would be a namespace, wouldn't it?
<Eldarion> nevermind
<Morgan> I have one query related to the navigational problem of TG - is it okey to bring it up?
<Hyarion> of course
<Morgan> I remember that Mith added a quote to our Tolkien Gateway article, from some reviewer claiming that it's easy to get lost on TG...
<&Mith> She's obviously never encountered the "Back" button. :p
<Morgan> ... I would agree with this reviewer. If you're basically interested in, let's say, articles on Elves, you get lost quickly if you press some internal links (that is, it might be difficult to find your way back, in case you don't remember the initial article)
<Hyarion> Morgan, but that's the point, it will be hours before they realize what they were really looking for in the first place :)
<Morgan> That's what I like about EoA, that you can always access the drop down menues to quickly find your way back. I know we have something similiar with the Portal stuff, but they are a bit difficult to understand for a newbie, perhaps?
<Hyarion> I've always liked breadcrumb navigation but unfortunatley the majority of articles have ambiguous parent categories
<Morgan> Would there be any way of solving this with our current Mediawiki? (Sorry to ramble on - we could move on to next point if gets tedious!)
<&Mith> Well, that was what my Contents: were aiming at. Obviously they wouldn't be on every page (unless with serious skin modification), but could be found from the homepage (in my head, that was the idea)
<Morgan> Hyarion, what is breadcrumb navigation?
<mithrennaith> Parent > Child > grandchild > great-grandchild
<mithrennaith> on top of every page.
<Eldarion> would it be possible to implement the Contents structure into a skin
<Eldarion> ?
<Hyarion> if you were on Aragorn, the top of the page might have links that look like Races > Men > Dunedain > Aragorn
<&Mith> Eldarion: yes it could be done.
<Morgan> I see, thanks
<Hyarion> Morgan, the drop down links on EoA you're referring to, those are the main Races, Places, etc. menu links right?
<Eldarion> then we could have content pages like Races, Men and Dunedain
<Eldarion> #Contents pages
<Morgan> But then Aragorn might also be in Cat:Kings, which might include Elves, Dwarves, etc. , which would make the breadcrumb navigation unusable?
<Eldarion> hm
<Hyarion> Morgan, well, not unusable, we would probably just have to pick the most appropriate path
<Eldarion> Aragorn would be on Dunedain and Kings
<Morgan> Hyarion: no, I'm thinking of the menu in the top, across a grey line
<Eldarion> and whichever link you click is displayed on top of the page
<Morgan> For excample, if you hold the mouse over "Races", a menu rolls down displaying all races, without making the page you're watching disappearing.
<Eldarion> if you click Aragorn on the Kings page the following would be displayes: Characters > Titles > Kings > Aragorn
<Eldarion> of sth. similar
<Eldarion> mith: how would the skin do that?
<Eldarion> would it look at the Races page, collect all links there and display them in the dropdown menu?
<Morgan> On TG, you would have to change page/article in order to see other "available" races. This might be one reason why TG might be difficult to navigate for newbies.
<&Mith> It could just be hard-coded into the skin itself. It wouldn't be dynamic (i.e. if ever we wantesd to change it, it would have to be done manually), but it could be done
<Hyarion> Morgan, gotcha, those might be similar to our Portals, which we could place on every page, I just hate cluttering everything up
<Eldarion> the EOA menu isn't cluttering everything up ;)
<Hyarion> Re: Breadcrumbs, I think there is an extension for it already, although I haven't used it.
<mithrennaith> On reading that review, I’m thinking that the reviewer doesn’t really understand how a wiki works ... nor is used to browsing with browser tabs ...
<Hyarion> Eldarion, although we have more than just the Races/Places to link to, I'm thinking all the real-world things
<Eldarion> the link "Races" in the menu would lead to the Races page in the Contents namespace then?
<Hyarion> Well, I would imagine it would link to Portal:Races
<Hyarion> I'm still unsure about the Contents namespace.
<Mith> Portals are much more than just lists of articles, aren't they?
<Morgan> True
<Hyarion> that's another point, for example the Races portal I'd imagine would be more beneficial if it said perhaps Elves (List of Elves)
<Mith> OK, where do we go from here?
<Morgan> Next point? ;-)
<Mith> What's the point in having portals to lists. You might as well go staright to the list (be it in a category or contents or whatever)
<Morgan> (I have to be going very soon)
<Eldarion> we are discussing three points: breadcrumb navigation, new skin with dropdown menu, Contents namespace
<Hyarion> I always imagined the point of the portal as a central point for accessing the subject's articles
<Hyarion> the reason it differs from the category is so the portal can have text, images, etc. and be more visual to the visitor, so I don't see why it couldn't link to the categories.
<Hyarion2> I was wondering why everyone stopped talking... :)
<Morgan> ;-) Actually it's been silent since you left
<mithrennaith> Sorry, called off elsewhere temporarily - back now.
<Eldarion> maybe it would be better to put this topic off as well or do you think that we can find a decision tonight?
<Morgan> It's a large topic, so we better keep discussing in more meetings, IMHO
<Hyarion> agreed.
<Morgan> Did Mith loose connection? There's a sign before his name in my IRC client (&)
<mithrennaith> agreede
<mithrennaith> means admin.
<Morgan> Oh! :)
<Morgan> (where do you all learn this stuff?)
<mithrennaith> Guessing :)
<Morgan> haha!
<mithrennaith> It looks like a key in my client
<Hyarion> I guess from a business perspective when it comes to navigation, the best thing to ask ourselves is when someone comes to the site, what are they trying to find, do they need navigation or do they already know what they want?
<mithrennaith> and if I hover the cursor on that key, it says ‘admin, op’
<Mith> To be honest, I didn't have anything else to add.
<Hyarion> I almost like the idea of switching to http://tolkiengateway.net/search/ and just becoming more Google like :)
<Mith> I was struggling to keep up with three different conversation.
<Morgan> Good question. I guess it's a bit of both.
<Mith> That's assuming that people know what they're looking for
<Mith> Sometimes it's nice to window shop. :p
<Morgan> The one who just read LotR might be curious to see what's more, and the ones with more knowledge might be looking for specific articles.
<Hyarion> I agree, and I think Morgan has a good point in that a lot of people may not know what they are looking for, and just want some general top level links to click
<Mith> A top level link, like "Contents:Elves" :p
<Hyarion> or Portal:Elves :p
<Morgan> Well, should we say the we keep pondering about how to best structure TG, navigationally-wise, and move on to see if there's more points to discuss?
<Hyarion> agreed.
<Hyarion> hm, no one knows any iPhone/Android app developers by any chance?
<mithrennaith> Agreed as well.
<mithrennaith> But I think we can do with a page to set out the ideas/options a bit clearer. Forum, anyone? ;0
<Eldarion> i always wanted to try coding for Android
<mithrennaith> ;)
<Morgan> (My wife is calling me angrily - gotta go! See you all! Bye!)
<Eldarion> bye
<Hyarion> thanks for your contributions Morgan
<mithrennaith> Bye!
<Hyarion> always nice seeing you.
<Morgan> thanks, same to you all!
<Eldarion> yes, discussion page would be great
<Ederchil> back. sorry, phone call
<Mith> Bye Morgan!
<Mith> I believe
<Ederchil> oh, bye morgan
<Mith> We are already on an iPhon app!
<Hyarion> true
<Hyarion> that was quick.
<Eldarion> really?
<Mith> http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/986-Tolkien_news_last_week.php
<Morgan> (forgot that I can keep the window open, and then check how the discussion went before going to bed...!)
<Mith> iPad app, not iPhone
<Eldarion> interesting..
<Mith> Strange no one thought to mention it to us
<Eldarion> we don't know the developer?!
<Mith> Unless Hyarion does
<Mith> Richard Blum is the author
<Hyarion> I think he stopped into chat a couple times
<Hyarion> unless I'm thinking of someone else.
<Mith> (Link: https://sites.google.com/site/middleearthmapapp/screenshots/PlaceSelectDetail_Gateway.png?attredirects=0)https://sites.google.com/site/middleearthmapapp/screenshots/PlaceSelectDetail_Gateway.png?attredirects=0
<Mith> Are you thinking of Kris Kowal?
<Mith> Who did 3rin.gs?
<Eldarion> looks great^^
<Hyarion> yea, that's who I was thinking of, for some reason I was thinking they were one in the same.
<Mith> We still have a bit of meeting stuff to get through
<Mith> Very quickly
<Eldarion> sry, but why were you asking for a developer, hyarion?
<Mith> KingAragorn proposed an extension to provide Facebook intergration
<Hyarion> Eldarion, to see if we can get a proper Android/iPhone TG app thrown together of course :)
<Eldarion> hm, but could an app be more usefull than the website?!
<Hyarion> well, a mobile version of the site would work well
<Eldarion> yes
<Eldarion> so, the question is: mobile site or app?!
<Mith> This guy, Richard Blum
<Mith> Despite linking to TG, waxes lyrical about how great EOA is
<Eldarion> often it's better to have a decent mobile site than having an app that doesn't offer more than the website
<Mith> There's no mention of us in either his acknowledgements or references
<Mith> Despite the fact both EOA and Thain's Book are mentioned
<Hyarion> Eldarion, agreed.
<Hyarion> Mith, interesting, that's too bad.
<Mith> Also
<Mith> I think it's a bit much that's he's making money on the back of us, effectively
<Hyarion> oh one other thing we could start doing, maybe on our Tolkien Gateway article is list popular websites that have linked/referenced us
<Eldarion> agree
<Eldarion> with both of you
<mithrennaith> agree also with both ;)
<Eldarion> we could ask him to at least mention or thank us
<mithrennaith> y
<Mith> You would think so, wouldn't you
<Mith> This has made me quite angry!
<Hyarion> Mith, I dunno, I don't think as long as the app is linking to us there isn't anything wrong with that.
<mithrennaith> Yes, that’s what I was thinking - legally in terms of licence, that is.
<Eldarion> hm, on the other side the app earns money for him and our content is an important feature
<Mith> Can we release our own app and undercut him
<mithrennaith> But if he is acknowledging EncyclArda and Thain’s Book, he might nod in our way too ...
<Eldarion> yes, he might
<Eldarion> hm, don't know why there has to be a map int he centre..
<Eldarion> or is it the map why the people are buying the app?
<Hyarion> not sure if I pointed this out before but the LA Times linked to us a while back: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/28/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20101128
<Mith> It's a map
<Mith> But all the links on it are to us
<Mith> And, if you look at the screenshots
<Mith> It includes the ability to copy our text without acknowledgement
<Eldarion> i mean, if we make an app
<Eldarion> do we also have to use a map as starting point
<Eldarion> or can we just concentrate on the articles
<Hyarion> I'd imagine a TG app would be more centered on a search box and searching for articles
<mithrennaith> yep
<Eldarion> yes, i agree
<Eldarion> i'm wondering who is paying 4 dollars for a Tolkien app that displays free content?!
<Eldarion> free content except the map
<Mith> No idea
<Mith> Idiots
<mithrennaith> ;)
<Eldarion> at least they are Tolkien-loving idiots
<Mith> He didn't do the map himself
<mithrennaith> People like Kristine Kastle who wrote that review ...
<Eldarion> okay, we could think about the app idea
<Mith> In his Bibliography he says it's a rip off http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Quentin_Lowagie_-_Arda_in_the_First_Age.gif
<mithrennaith> No, I was wondering where he got that map - EOA?
<Eldarion> do we want to continue with the meeting?
<mithrennaith> y
<mithrennaith> We have KA’s points and skins still on the agenda.
<Eldarion> i don't think we need Facebook login
<Eldarion> if someone is interested he can sign up
<Eldarion> that's my opinion
<Ederchil> agree with Eldarion
<mithrennaith> I think the point that most people want Tolkienist aliases for TG goes for this one as well.
<mithrennaith> So I would agree with Eldarion.
<Mith> That's three nos
<mithrennaith> Plus, I don’t want us to become another one of those ‘partners’ where you never know what they want to know about you.
<Eldarion> YES!
<Eldarion> facebook is mighty enough
<mithrennaith> If you still understand what I mean ... ;)
<mithrennaith> Quite.
<mithrennaith> So - No -- next?
<Eldarion> so, we are done with this point?
<Mith> OK, skins. Basically, I intend to make some news skins and I was wondering if people had any ideas they'd like to see. Don't have to tell me now but I think a Hobbity one is obvious. :p
<mithrennaith> I’m a bit blank for ideas at the moment.
<mithrennaith> Like to see what you want to do, though.
<Eldarion> dropdown menu, a bit
<mithrennaith> Maybe it will prompt something out of me ...
<Eldarion> i like the drawings in the current skin so something like this would be great
<mithrennaith> Drawings?
<Eldarion> i have mountains on the top..
<mithrennaith> You’re having ‘Tolkien Gateway’ skin?
<Eldarion> dunno
<Eldarion> no, ithilien
<mithrennaith> I’m having the default, which is ‘Cavendish’ - so I thought you were referring to the default.
<mithrennaith> Ah, Ithilien - yes.
<mithrennaith> Yes, those are John Howe’s drawings
<Eldarion> just beautiful :)
<mithrennaith> Much abused by all and sundry without asking his permission ... :)
<Eldarion> yes^^
<mithrennaith> I see there is a statement at the bottom of the skin mentioning John’s and Ted’s names, though
<mithrennaith> But, back to useful discussion -
<mithrennaith> As I said, I’m fine with Mith doing something and showing it.
<Eldarion> yes, of course
<mithrennaith> I wonder if it is useful to update the existing skins to the standard of present software.
<mithrennaith> Although I don’t think the one called ‘TolkienGateway’ merits it ...
<mithrennaith> ‘MonoBook’ possibly ...
<Eldarion> i think the one who wants to make a new skin can decide whether he wants to update or create something completely new
<mithrennaith> Mith, what’s your feeling on that?
<mithrennaith> Eldarion, yes that’s true, but we still have to decide whether we keep the old skins available when they’re no longer compliant, as soon as we have compliant skins.
<Eldarion> yes
<mithrennaith> And then it might be better to upgrade one or two we still want to keep and abandon the others.
<Eldarion> yes
<Eldarion> is somebody else still there?
<Ederchil> yes
<Eldarion> okay, do we want to continue to this point: "Can we just hire someone to fix all of the technical problems with TG?"
<mithrennaith> But I’m theorising here, as I don’t know well enough what the compliance problems of the present skin are, or how easy they are fixed.
<Mith> Ithilien is the default
<Mith> Cavendish is the old default (and the default for IE)
<Eldarion> okay
<Mith> I was going to get rid of TOlkien Gateway
<mithrennaith> Ah, that’s why I get it (C) as default.
<mithrennaith> Good (rid of old TG)
<Mith> I updated them a bit the other day, which is why we now have Edittools and proper formatting back
<mithrennaith> I noticed about Edittools.
<Eldarion> so it was because of the skins?
<Mith> That was why they weren't working before, yes.
<Mith> So I'm wondering if some of the other stuff isn't displaying for the same reason, but I'll have to look into it
<mithrennaith> So, what is your feeling, Mith? Do we update Cavendish and Ithilien as far as necessary and doable and drop TolkienG and MonoBook?
<Mith> Well, I think we can do that alongside new skins, can't we?
<mithrennaith> I do so too.
<Eldarion> aren't there skins in the www that we could try just to check whether it's working with them?
<Mith> I'd like a Hobbit skin for the Hobbit films... :p
<mithrennaith> And I agree.
<Mith> Eldarion: yeah, I'll have a look and try some out
<Eldarion> cool
<mithrennaith> But I’m applauding your energy here, Mith, as I’m without inspiration and time. ;)
<Mith> But if you have any ideas - other than sketches (could be some good Alan Lee ones around)- let me know.
<Eldarion> so atm we don't need professional help as KA proposed, do we?
<Eldarion> yes
<Mith> Also, I just want to applaud KA's work on Portals
<mithrennaith> Yes also.
<Ederchil> yes
<mithrennaith> Skin point settled then, Mith?
<mithrennaith> (for now)
<Mith> Yep
<Mith> Just so you all know, Editcount and ImageMap are back on the wiki
<mithrennaith> KA’s point of hiring someone (as Eldarion already mentioned :) )?
<Eldarion> great, thank you mith :)
<Mith> And you should be able to include videos too
<Mith> I've crossed out the stuff I've done so far from Technical: To-do
<mithrennaith> Yes great, second Eldarion on thanks!
<Mith> Not sure what happened there
<mithrennaith> Hiccup?
<Eldarion> can we decide on KA's point quickly?
<Mith> You should also find that user css works, and categories no long have two boxes around them.
<mithrennaith> I think Hyarion should be in on that. (KA’s point)
<Eldarion> splendid
<Eldarion> yes
<Mith> Employing someone? That's up to Hyarion really
<Ederchil> agree with Mithrennaith
<Eldarion> great
<Mith> Although let me have a fair crack at the whip. :p
<Eldarion> ^^
<mithrennaith> Yes ;)
<Mith> If that's all, meeting over! Thank you all for coming