Tolkien Gateway

Tolkien Gateway talk:Manual of Style

(Difference between revisions)
m (An Eagle has picked up Tolkien Gateway talk:Standards and carried it to Tolkien Gateway talk:Manual of Style: since this is the usual term for this kind of article)
(Canon)
(23 intermediate revisions by 10 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
 
== Fair Use ==
 
== Fair Use ==
  
It would certainly be helpful if [[Template:fairuse]] actually existed.  We '''do''' need it. --[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 16:30, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
+
It would certainly be helpful if {{Redlink|[[Template:fairuse]]}} actually existed.  We '''do''' need it. --[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 16:30, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
  
 
:I certainly agree. It's kind of nagging me that certain things (like the "fact" template) "must" be inserted while they don't even exist. All images need a good going over anyway - copyrights, correct names, descriptions, categories. That'll take ages, but it can be done. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 16:42, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
 
:I certainly agree. It's kind of nagging me that certain things (like the "fact" template) "must" be inserted while they don't even exist. All images need a good going over anyway - copyrights, correct names, descriptions, categories. That'll take ages, but it can be done. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 16:42, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
Line 7: Line 7:
 
==Rename==
 
==Rename==
 
To be consistent with other wiki's, shouldn't this be renamed (and remolded if necessary) to "Tolkien Gateway: Manual of Style"? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 
To be consistent with other wiki's, shouldn't this be renamed (and remolded if necessary) to "Tolkien Gateway: Manual of Style"? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Plagiarism? ==
 +
 +
Sorry . . . I'm new. What are the rules here about duplicating text from other sites? Does the wiki have authorization from some site owners (Encyclopedia of Arda, for example) to use their material word for word? [[User:ElfMaven|ElfMaven]] 21:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
:Better not copy anything. There still are a lot of articles in the database that are partial or complete rips from EoA or Wikipedia from way back when the site just started. These should be changed (but I'll admit, it's not something actively pursued). -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
:: Thanks for responding. Much of your uncommon or unusual words list is still word for word from EoA, only with some significant additions. Also some of the articles, e.g., "Evrard Took" are the same with only minor differences, not enough to avoid copyright infringement.
 +
 +
::(I have read EoA extensively, and I was just re-reading the "Old & Rare Words" section last week. I started trying to research the phrase "stock and stone" and found this site.) [[User:ElfMaven|ElfMaven]] 14:27, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Dates ==
 +
 +
Is it fair to say that we've settled on using the templates ({{FA|, etc.) for the vast majority of in-universe years? If so the latter two bullet points in the Dates section should be removed.
 +
 +
In their place, I think there should be a mention of real-world years. Also, especially, how to handle full dates ([[15 March]] vs. [[15 March|March 15]]; [[15 March]] [[2001]] vs. [[2001#March|15 March 2001]]; and so many other permutations). {{User:Aule the Smith/sig}} 09:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== alterations ==
 +
 +
I see that the article is not locked to be edited by administrators only. I wonder if it is  proper to make some small corrections-clarifications. I would like to rewrite some points which might seem unclear to a newcomer, add some examples, and point out some common mistakes not covered in the article. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 07:20, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 +
 +
:Fine by me. I don't think a lock is necessary at this point.--{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 07:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Additional stylistic suggestions ==
 +
If we could add guidance on the case structure of section headings - i.e. First letter of the first word capitalized the rest not, e.g. "See also" rather than "See Also" - I believe that would be useful.
 +
Additionally, if we could note that the first occurrence of a relevant subject should be wikilinked and subsequent mentions need not that, too, would help. [[User:Pallando|Pallando]] 19:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
:Indeed. Everybody agree on "first word capitalized" in article headings? Same for categories? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
::I don't mind. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 21:04, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
==How to render titles==
 +
 +
For books it's nothing to discuss, we follow the standard italic form used in English. For articles, and chapters in books, our old standard is to use quotation marks, "X". However, what do we do with titles of poems? I'm always a little uncertain about this when editing.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 22:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Only relevant links? ==
 +
 +
I commented out the guideline mentioning that only words relevant to the context should be linked. Even if there is a justification behind it, I don't see anyone following it.
 +
 +
Does this guideline means that if we mention that Gandalf once walked among roses, we should not put a link to the [[roses]] article, because otherwise Gandalf has no relation to roses?
 +
 +
I understand that this derives from Wikipedia, which contains all kind of information, both from the real world, art or fiction, and that would make overly complicated the whole link-web of its database. But I don't think this rule serves any purpose here. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 19:43, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
:I agree with you, this guideline does not appear to be relevant here.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Canon ==
 +
 +
There seems to be some confusion as to what is to be regarded as canon. According to the Manual of Style, anything written by someone else than Tolkien ''is not'' canon – implying that everything Tolkien wrote ''is''. But this is contradicted by the [[Canon]] article, which makes the question justifiably more complex. However, neither of the definitions explain why, for instance, http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Square_of_the_Palace would not be canon. (It is of course easy to say that anything mentioned only in The Book of Lost Tales is not canon, but this is nowhere stated.)
 +
[[User:Elros|Elros]] 08:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 +
 +
:Welcome to TG, Elros (and it's always nice to see another fellow countryman)! This is the background (in short) behind the current situation, from my perspective: a couple of years ago we were trying to create a "canon scale" on TG, so we could grade the "canonical" status of certain concepts. We had much debate concerning how to create this scale, and made a temporary decision to use a simple non-canon template for articles about concepts not appearing in the works published during J.R.R. Tolkien's lifetime. However, we also abandoned this strategy, since we now have the goal to include references for every article (and thus readers can decide the "canonicity" themselves). The non-canon template which appears on the article you mention ("Square of the Palace") is an artifact from the interim period before we decided to leave the question of canon to the readers. That is not to say, though, that sometimes it can be complex to determine Tolkien's intention for a certain concept (e.g., like the well-known Celeborn case), which is why we try to include the section "Other versions of the legendarium" where appropriate. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 11:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 +
 +
::Thanks for the welcome, it's good to be here! Then I assume the { { Noncanon } } template can be removed whenever it is found, since it is an "artifact"? --[[User:Elros|Elros]] 12:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 +
 +
:::My recommendation would be to remove the template in those cases where the article clearly states the origin of the concept (either with a reference and/or in the text itself). --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 12:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 +
 +
::::Now that the matter has been brought up, I have also observed (and followed) that "non-canon" articles are usually written in an out-of-universe manner. See for example the first paragraph of [[Luthany]] written by myself, whereas canonical articles are written in a historical style. I perceived this as asubtle and unofficial way to indicate non-canonicity. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 13:00, 14 March 2013

Contents

Fair Use

It would certainly be helpful if Template:fairuse[former link] actually existed. We do need it. --Theoden1 16:30, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

I certainly agree. It's kind of nagging me that certain things (like the "fact" template) "must" be inserted while they don't even exist. All images need a good going over anyway - copyrights, correct names, descriptions, categories. That'll take ages, but it can be done. -- Ederchil 16:42, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Rename

To be consistent with other wiki's, shouldn't this be renamed (and remolded if necessary) to "Tolkien Gateway: Manual of Style"? -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism?

Sorry . . . I'm new. What are the rules here about duplicating text from other sites? Does the wiki have authorization from some site owners (Encyclopedia of Arda, for example) to use their material word for word? ElfMaven 21:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Better not copy anything. There still are a lot of articles in the database that are partial or complete rips from EoA or Wikipedia from way back when the site just started. These should be changed (but I'll admit, it's not something actively pursued). -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 21:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for responding. Much of your uncommon or unusual words list is still word for word from EoA, only with some significant additions. Also some of the articles, e.g., "Evrard Took" are the same with only minor differences, not enough to avoid copyright infringement.
(I have read EoA extensively, and I was just re-reading the "Old & Rare Words" section last week. I started trying to research the phrase "stock and stone" and found this site.) ElfMaven 14:27, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Dates

Is it fair to say that we've settled on using the templates ({{FA|, etc.) for the vast majority of in-universe years? If so the latter two bullet points in the Dates section should be removed.

In their place, I think there should be a mention of real-world years. Also, especially, how to handle full dates (15 March vs. March 15; 15 March 2001 vs. 15 March 2001; and so many other permutations). —Aulë the Smith (Tk·Cb) 09:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

alterations

I see that the article is not locked to be edited by administrators only. I wonder if it is proper to make some small corrections-clarifications. I would like to rewrite some points which might seem unclear to a newcomer, add some examples, and point out some common mistakes not covered in the article. Sage 07:20, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Fine by me. I don't think a lock is necessary at this point.--Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 07:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Additional stylistic suggestions

If we could add guidance on the case structure of section headings - i.e. First letter of the first word capitalized the rest not, e.g. "See also" rather than "See Also" - I believe that would be useful. Additionally, if we could note that the first occurrence of a relevant subject should be wikilinked and subsequent mentions need not that, too, would help. Pallando 19:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Everybody agree on "first word capitalized" in article headings? Same for categories? --Morgan 20:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't mind. --Amroth 21:04, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

How to render titles

For books it's nothing to discuss, we follow the standard italic form used in English. For articles, and chapters in books, our old standard is to use quotation marks, "X". However, what do we do with titles of poems? I'm always a little uncertain about this when editing.--Morgan 22:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Only relevant links?

I commented out the guideline mentioning that only words relevant to the context should be linked. Even if there is a justification behind it, I don't see anyone following it.

Does this guideline means that if we mention that Gandalf once walked among roses, we should not put a link to the roses article, because otherwise Gandalf has no relation to roses?

I understand that this derives from Wikipedia, which contains all kind of information, both from the real world, art or fiction, and that would make overly complicated the whole link-web of its database. But I don't think this rule serves any purpose here. Sage 19:43, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you, this guideline does not appear to be relevant here.--Morgan 20:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Canon

There seems to be some confusion as to what is to be regarded as canon. According to the Manual of Style, anything written by someone else than Tolkien is not canon – implying that everything Tolkien wrote is. But this is contradicted by the Canon article, which makes the question justifiably more complex. However, neither of the definitions explain why, for instance, http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Square_of_the_Palace would not be canon. (It is of course easy to say that anything mentioned only in The Book of Lost Tales is not canon, but this is nowhere stated.) Elros 08:36, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to TG, Elros (and it's always nice to see another fellow countryman)! This is the background (in short) behind the current situation, from my perspective: a couple of years ago we were trying to create a "canon scale" on TG, so we could grade the "canonical" status of certain concepts. We had much debate concerning how to create this scale, and made a temporary decision to use a simple non-canon template for articles about concepts not appearing in the works published during J.R.R. Tolkien's lifetime. However, we also abandoned this strategy, since we now have the goal to include references for every article (and thus readers can decide the "canonicity" themselves). The non-canon template which appears on the article you mention ("Square of the Palace") is an artifact from the interim period before we decided to leave the question of canon to the readers. That is not to say, though, that sometimes it can be complex to determine Tolkien's intention for a certain concept (e.g., like the well-known Celeborn case), which is why we try to include the section "Other versions of the legendarium" where appropriate. --Morgan 11:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the welcome, it's good to be here! Then I assume the { { Noncanon } } template can be removed whenever it is found, since it is an "artifact"? --Elros 12:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
My recommendation would be to remove the template in those cases where the article clearly states the origin of the concept (either with a reference and/or in the text itself). --Morgan 12:13, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Now that the matter has been brought up, I have also observed (and followed) that "non-canon" articles are usually written in an out-of-universe manner. See for example the first paragraph of Luthany written by myself, whereas canonical articles are written in a historical style. I perceived this as asubtle and unofficial way to indicate non-canonicity. Sage 13:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)