Tolkien Gateway

User talk:Gamling

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:::::Welcome, hopely you will have a good time here. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 18:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 
:::::Welcome, hopely you will have a good time here. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 18:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 
== British/American English ==
 
 
I've noticed that on a couple of occasions you have amended an article from British usage to American usage; just to let you know that both British English and American English is acceptable on the wiki (I think usage of it is about 50/50 at the moment). The general rule (which, admittedly, is not written down anywhere) is that whoever writes or rewrites an article effectively "claims" it for their language and future editors should respect that; so, for instance, in your excellent [[Letter 163]] no one should come along and change "labor" to "labour".
 
 
Keep up the good work! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 
  
 
== Letters ==
 
== Letters ==
 
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Look at all those blue links! I just wanted to congratulate you on all your hard work on those letters. The section is an invaluable addition to TG and I'm sure a great many people will appreciate the time you spent on it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 23:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Look at all those blue links! I just wanted to congratulate you on all your hard work on those letters. The section is an invaluable addition to TG and I'm sure a great many people will appreciate the time you spent on it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 23:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
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:Thank you for the congratulations Hyarion, but there is still one more, the epistolary [[Fastitocalon]] - '''[[Letter 131]]''' - which has as its "summary" just the head note and nothing of the body of the text.  I have begun working on it but this one is going to take a bit of time. -- Gamling 00:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
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:I second that [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 
:I second that [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
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:::Nice Work! I actually didn't see that you were already this far. Now people who haven't purchased the letters (I for example) can finally find out what Tolkien wrote in these :) I also second Morgan about your next peolple (I like beer, by the way :P ). --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:11, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 
:::Nice Work! I actually didn't see that you were already this far. Now people who haven't purchased the letters (I for example) can finally find out what Tolkien wrote in these :) I also second Morgan about your next peolple (I like beer, by the way :P ). --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:11, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
  
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==Referencing HoMe==
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If possible, it would be great if you could also add page references to the volumes in ''The History of Middle-earth''. All current US/UK editions (save those published by DelRey) have the same pagination. I personally always try to do this, since it's time-consuming to track specific statements in long chapters or sections.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
  
I have just finished the summary of Letter 131 (9 pages in Word, out of 17 pages in "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", out of 41 pages in the original) so '''now''' the Letters are "done" (except for edits).
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:Very good, I shall include page number references.  I didn't know that all those editions used the same numbering. --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 18:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
  
I didn't mean to disappear for a few days but that's what Letter 131 tookSince Morgan asked (seconded by Amroth), here's some of what I plan to do:
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==Current Projects==
* Some of you may have seen me make corrections of grammar and misspelling here and there - that'll continue.
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# Adding References: I've been doing this for awhile but I'm proceeding a bit more systematicallyI've been working through Robert Foster's ''Complete Guide to Middle-earth'' alphabetically and checking each entry to see if it has any or sufficient references.  In many cases the answer is "no" and I add them.  I'm currently in the 'D's.
* Add references to various articlesWhen I updated "Rhimdath" it was because it had no references and I did not know where the information came from.  I eventually found a reference but ''outside'' of the Tolkien GatewayBy the way, a number of people made tweaks to what I did which I am happy to see.
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# POME Summaries: Very few of the chapters of ''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' have summaries.  I've written one for "The Prologue" which wasn't even an active page in TG.  I am working on the next chapter now but this will be a slowly done project since it takes time to digest and summarize all of the material in each.
* I'm thinking about working on some of the Locations articles and I will probably continue to generate articles from the Wanted pages, especially those with lots of income and unfulfilled links.
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# Contributing to ''The Hobbit'' Project: Due to my time off after my wife's death I did not get in at the start on the updates to the most popular articles about the book that are likely to be read when the movies appearIt seems to me that there are plenty of contributors for these articles so I decided to update some of the less visited pieces that may still see a surge of reading-hits after the movies are released.  I've updated "Dori" and "Fíli" so far, removing the "needs sources" and "needs expansion" messages.
In addition--
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* Next week I will vanish again (for 4 days) to retrieve my son from college for the summer.
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* With my son's help I will embark on a special projectYears ago I produced a 22-page essay on an aspect of Middle-earth.  I now want to create a Website for this essay, and add diagrams and other pictorial aids.  When it is done I'll let you know since I would appreciate comments.  I will also ask if the Tolkien Gateway would want to reference what I will have doneI believe it will count as Tolkienology but that may be up to your judgment (which is why I've been greatly interested in following the Original Research discussion). I will still be active as a contributor to the Tolkien Gateway but some of my time will be on this other project.
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-- Gamling 05:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
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:Sound's Interesting. If you give me the link (once it's done) I'll certainly give comments. Though, it may cost some time since I've test week over 3 weeks. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
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==Queen of Faery==
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Hello Gamling! We noticed [[Talk:Queen (disambiguation)|here]] that TG doesn't have an article for the Queen of Faery (mentioned [[Starbrow|here]]) in ''Smith of Wootton Major''. Since I noticed that you've created most of our articles for characters and places in this work, perhaps you'd be interested in creating an article for the Queen of Faery (if you reckon such an article would be useful, and if you have time)? --[[User:J.R.R. Tolkien|J.R.R. Tolkien]] 20:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
  
==Favor==
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:Feel free, J.R.R. Tolkien, to create the article yourself! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I would be grateful if you checked [[War of the Ring]]. For months it has been tagged as needing improvement. I made some effort to improve and make it a 'complete' article but since nobody contributed to it since then, there was no feedback or corrections to my blunders. Some paragraphs are awfully written and it would really need a second hand. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:40, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
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==Comments on Edits==
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::I just returned from a vacation trip; I will put this on my list of things to do. --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
On the Recent Changes page many editors have a short comment that appears after each of their edits, and they appear to have been written by the editor.  I don't know how this is done and I'd like to be able to put in "Corrected typo" or "Added ref" when I've made such changes. Could someone please instruct me in how to added comments to appear in Recent Changes? --Gamling 03:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
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:Certainly, it's quite easy. When you "edit" an article, there's a box called "summary" beneath the edit window and above the "save page"- and "show preview"-buttons. In this "summary" box you can add such short comments.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 07:49, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
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:::Thank you, Gamling!--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 09:08, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
  
::Thank you Morgan. I'm not called Gamling for nothing; on my computer the "Summary" box only has a line on top and my aged eyes never noticed that it was a box instead of just a separator line. --Gamling 18:49, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
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==Grammatical tense in letters==
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I noticed that you used the past tense when writing the summaries of letters in ''The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien'' (cf. [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Letter_97&action=historysubmit&diff=202933&oldid=149668 Letter 97 Revision history]). Would you agree on changing this to the present tense (which, in my impression, we tend to use for matters appearing in published works)? This if of course not a pressing issue, so I'll will likely only rewrite the tense when there's an occasion to edit a letter.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:27, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
  
== Talk Page Comments ==
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:I agree with changing the tense if that's the standard.  In our manual of style under "[[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style#Tense|Tense]]" there is only the rule that in-universe articles should be in the past tense but since nothing was said about other articles I just kept using past tense for the letters.  Perhaps the Manual could be expanded on this point. --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
  
If you type "<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>" or press [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/skins/common/images/button_sig.png this button] it will automatically put in your name and the time stamp; important it will format you name as "[[User:Gamling|Gamling]]" rather than "Gamling" enabling people to easily find your user name and talk page. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:56, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
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== Fourth Age years ==
  
== Boffin family tree ==
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For the year {{SR|1422}} in Appendix B it says:
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{{Blockquote|With the beginning of this year the Fourth Age began in the count of years in the Shire; but the numbers of the years of Shire Reckoning were continued.|{{App|Later}}}}
  
In changing the format of the Boffin family tree you have lost Otho Sackville-Baggins and sundry Bracegirdles (and Brandybucks). Otherwise you’re doing good work on the hobbits and their family trees! — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
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At the end of Appendix E it also says:
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{{Blockquote|This reckoning was in the course of the reign of King Elessar adopted in all his lands except the Shire, where the old calendar was retained and Shire Reckoning was continued. Fourth Age 1 was thus called 1422; and in so far as the Hobbits took any account of the change of Age, they maintained that it began with 2 Yule 1422, and not in the previous March|{{App|E}}}}
  
::I have just put in the Bracegirdles and Otho back into the Boffin Family Tree. Originally I left them out because I thought that there was too much of the Bracegirdles and the Sackville-Baggins in the Boffins' Tree (in the version of the tree before mine the children of Hilda and Seredic had been added, which I felt was going too far astray from the Boffin line). However, including what's now back in the tree was what J.R.R. Tolkien created, so perhaps that's the best standard.  What Tolkien ''should'' have done was keep all these family trees in separate pages in his own wiki, except that...  --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:47, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
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This, I think, clearly shows that we can take Fourth Age 1 and Shire Reckoning 1422 to be synonymous. Fourth Age 1 in Gondorian reckoning is, of course, not exactly the same as Shire Reckoning 1422.
  
:Also, I now notice, your reformatting of the Brandybuck family tree has the side effect that it has now disappeared from [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]]’s page, since it was rather cleverly transcluded there. I don’t know whether that was intentional, of course. But it has made me think (again), whether it would be a better idea to make these family trees into templates, so that they can be stuck into articles on family members. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 04:12, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
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I bring this up because I don't think the note that you've been adding to Fourth Age years is accurate. What do you think? Thanks for sorting out the Fourth Age (and other ages too) years by the way, they were in a right state!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}}
  
::Actually I suspected but didn't know that the Meriadoc article brought in the tree from the Brandybuck article.  The Brandybuck tree before mine had a number of omissions (the "Two sons" under Sadoc, Menegilda Goold, Merimac Brandybuck, Berilac Brandybuck, and Peony Baggins were all left out) so eventually I was going to get to Meriadoc and made the changes.
 
  
::I'm not sure where I stand on including the whole family tree for major characters; it kind of makes the article look bloatedPerhaps a standard statement: "For the complete family tree of Meriadoc, please see the [[Brandybuck Family]]." would suffice, or perhaps this sentence plus a piece of the family tree surrounding the character of the article would be sufficientSo far only the [[Baggins Family]] has its tree in a template.
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:The problem of assigning events to the proper year in the Fourth Age is something I’ve wrestled with quite a bitAs you noted, in both Appendix B and in Appendix D, Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1442, in the view of the Hobbits. However, the Gondorian system established by King Elessar has the beginning of the year shifted by 86 days, as noted in my Note attached to various Fourth Age years, based on the Tolkien’s explanation:
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{{Blockquote|In the New Reckoning the year began on March 25 old style..The Months retained their former names, beginning now with ''Víressë'' (April), but referred to periods beginning generally five days earlier than previously.|{{App|Calendars}}}}
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:The question is whether the Tolkien Gateway standard should be '''Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1442''' or '''the Gondorian system and the Hobbits' system vary; events are assigned with an acknowledgement of the variation'''?
  
::By the way, it was you (Mithrennaith) who told me about [[Estella Bolger]] - thank you! --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:47, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
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:Here is what led me to favor the second standard: If Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1422, then to calculate a Fourth Age year you subtract 1421 from a Shire Reckoning date. In the "Later Events" section of the Tale of Years the entry for S.R. 1484 states:
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{{Blockquote|In the spring of the year a message came from Rohan to Buckland that King Éomer wished to see Master Holdwine once again. … It was heard after that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Éomer before he died in that autumn.  Then he and Thain Peregrin went to Gondor…|{{App|Later}}}}
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If you subtract 1421 from 1484 then the year for all of these events is Fourth Age '''63'''.  However, in the "Note on the Shire Records" in the Prologue there is this comment about the Thain's Book that was used by Findegil in Minas Tirith:
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{{Blockquote|That book was a copy, made at the request of King Elessar…and was brought to him by the Thain Peregrin when he retired to Gondor in IV '''64'''.|{{App|Records}}}}
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:In this instance S.R. 1484 is equated with Fourth Age 64 and the difference is only 1420 instead of 1421.  Since the "Later Events" entry begins with the words "In the spring…" of 1484 and spring would occur in ''Víressë'' (April), I believe that all of the listed events occurred in the Hobbits' year 1484 and in the Gondorians' year 64, which began in March.  If the Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1422 system is used then these events must all be put into Fourth Age 63, which contradicts the Prologue's information.
  
:::Now when did I do that, I wonder? (Though it’s just the thing I’m likely to do)
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:In the same "Shire Records" section it is stated that the most important copy of the Red Book was "completed in S.R. 1592 (F.A. 172)." Again the difference is 1420 instead of 1421. If 1421 were subtracted from 1592 then we would place this event in Fourth Age 171, another contradiction with the text.  There are thus two instances which support the dates are at odds between the reckonings system.
:::I agree with you about the problem of whole family trees making articles on individual family members look bloated. Your ideas are worth exploring. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 23:18, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
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==Referencing HoMe==
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:However, in the "Later Events" section, there is clear support for the synonymous system.  For the year 1541 it is stated that King Elessar died on March 1st, and this is specifically said to be in "Fourth Age (Gondor) 120".  March 1st is obviously before March 25th, which is New Years Day in the New Reckoning calendar, and obviously 120 is 1421 less than 1541, rather than 1420.
If possible, it would be great if you could also add page references to the volumes in ''The History of Middle-earth''. All current US/UK editions (save those published by DelRey) have the same pagination. I personally always try to do this, since it's time-consuming to track specific statements in long chapters or sections.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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:I think that Tolkien himself got confused and created this mess.  When he was rushing to complete the appendices for publication he used the Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1422 standard for the whole "Later Events" section. But, when he wrote the Prologue he used the different standard that matched what was laid out in Appendix D, the Calendars.  Thus we in Tolkien Gateway are left with a contradictory situation.
  
:Very good, I shall include page number references.  I didn't know that all those editions used the same numbering--[[User:Gamling|Gamline]] 18:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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:When I updated the Fourth Age years I used Fourth Age dates when given (such as from Durin's Folk or from ''Peoples of Middle-earth'' data)When I could determine in which part of the year an event occurred, such as Samwise's elections to the mayorship on Midyear's Day, I put it into the appropriate year (although I left Aragorn's death in 120 since it was so clearly stated).  For the Shire Reckoning dates that had no month or seasonal information I put them in the later year and added the warning that they might be in the previous yearHowever, since the date of Aragorn's death favors the synonymous system I fully appreciate that it's a mess, which is why I haven’t touched the [[Timeline/Fourth Age]] article – I wanted to see what others thought before I went too far.
  
::Who's Gamline? ;) --{{User:Mith/sig}} 22:00, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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:So King Aragorn, what should be the standard for Tolkien Gateway? I am willing to change the Fourth Age years according to any set standard, but I am leery of putting in an explanation as long as the one above in every Fourth Age year article.  I am glad though that you've raised this discussion since I am still in doubt myself.
  
{{familytree/start}}
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::I wasn't aware of these contradictions between the appendices and the prologue. It's interesting that Hammond and Scull did not correct this in the 50th anniversary edition, but perhaps they had a good reason not to (if they were aware of it). I think this is something that we should discuss at a meeting as I know a few other people have opinions on this matter.--00:33, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|.| |}}
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{{familytree |GMG| |GME|GMG=[[User:Gamling|Gamling]]|GME=Gamline,<br/>Evil twin}}
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{{familytree/end}}
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:::--[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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==999 edits==
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:::I agree with discussing this matter at a meeting and look forward to it.
  
Congratulations to the soon to become 1000 edits! --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:17, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
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==Linguistic articles==
  
:Congrats! --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 19:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
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Thanks for creating articles about Elvish words! A few thoughts:
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*Elvish words ((and other invented languages) should be in italics, so please use <nowiki>'''''[word]'''''</nowiki> (five colons) for the first mention of the word.
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*Please add <nowiki>{{title|lowercase}}</nowiki> below the reference template.
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*Perhaps also assign the articles to a word class category.
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If you have any comments, please let me know! --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 19:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
  
::Congratulations! --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
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:Thank you for these guidelines. When I got started on these articles I was editing earlier articles and the styling was all over the place.  I will make the necessary adjustments. --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 19:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
  
==Merge==
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::Another small point (which you likely already have noticed): something which we really haven't decided is if articles about words should start with a lowercase letter or not. I personally favour to use lowercase (to conform with dictionaries, and to separate these from articles about proper names). Perhaps we need to decide/discuss this in a meeting.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
I noticed that you removed the categories while you merged [[Meldis]] and [[Malach]] with [[Zimrahin]] and [[Aradan]]. However, categories like [[:Category:Sindarin words|Sindarin words]] and [[:Category:Epithets|Epithets]] shouldn't be removed, like has been done on [http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Galanes&redirect=no Galanes]. Also you should add the content from the merged article to the main article. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:00, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
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:Did we agree anything on categorising redirects? --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 19:43, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
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:::I agree with using lowercase letters for word-articles. For example, when I was updating articles about tengwar I didn't know what to do about [[Vilya]].  The already existing article was a proper noun discussing the ring Vilya.  I added "vilya" the word and tengwa in the body of the article but I think it would be better if we had a disambiguation for "Vilya (ring)" and "vilya" the word/tengwa (all of the tengwa articles start with the name as a word and then discuss the letter).  I didn't make these changes at the time because I thought I'd be opening a can of worms for lots of changes to many articles.  I agree that this subject would be good for a meeting. --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 20:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
  
::I'm almost absolutely sure that it was discussed somewhere. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:08, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
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==HoMe chapters==
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I noticed you've been working on creating articles for the chapters of ''The Return of the Shadow'', and therefore created a template for displaying these: [[Template:HoMe6chapters]]. I'll add links to new chapter articles once these are created, but feel free to edit the template as you like (or just let me know if you have any suggestions).--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:20, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
  
==What Happened==
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:Thank you. I will continue to add articles and I plan to eventually go through all four books regarding the history of writing ''The Lord of the Rings''.--[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 23:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
To my friends at Tolkien Gateway: On Nov. 27th my wife died suddenly.  We all know how much J.R.R. and Edith loved each other; our relationship was just as loving.  Right now, on Dec. 1st, I am still getting my bearings.  I have a river of friends and family that have been supporting me and grieving with me.  I will return to editing on Tolkien Gateway in the future but after 24 years of a wonderful marriage it will take me some time to recover. --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 07:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
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Revision as of 23:52, 10 February 2013

Contents

Welcome!

Hello and welcome to Tolkien Gateway. I hope you like the place and choose to join our work. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and we look forward to your future edits. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the Council forums or ask me on my talk page. Keep up the great work!

Welcome

Nice to have you on board! Hope you will enjoy editing on Tolkien Gateway! --Morgan 22:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Seconded! A pleasure to have you around Gamling. I don't suppose you still have any pictures of that scroll? --Hyarion 01:06, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, I still have the scroll but I haven't photographed the whole thing. Perhaps that's a project I ought to do. If I do though the next suggestion will be to post it and I'd need some instructions on how and where to do so. Unsigned comment by Gamling (talk • contribs).
Just let us know if you need any help, I'm sure there could be a place for images of the scroll here on TG.--Morgan 17:57, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Welcome from me too! :) If you need any help in getting to grips with using the wiki software feel free to ask me, Hyarion, Morgan, Mith, Ederchil or Amroth. -- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Welcome, hopely you will have a good time here. --Amroth 18:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Letters

Look at all those blue links! I just wanted to congratulate you on all your hard work on those letters. The section is an invaluable addition to TG and I'm sure a great many people will appreciate the time you spent on it. --Hyarion 23:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I second that Sage 08:02, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Great work, Gamling! It'll be interesting to see your next project on TG! --Morgan 10:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Nice Work! I actually didn't see that you were already this far. Now people who haven't purchased the letters (I for example) can finally find out what Tolkien wrote in these :) I also second Morgan about your next peolple (I like beer, by the way :P ). --Amroth 15:11, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Referencing HoMe

If possible, it would be great if you could also add page references to the volumes in The History of Middle-earth. All current US/UK editions (save those published by DelRey) have the same pagination. I personally always try to do this, since it's time-consuming to track specific statements in long chapters or sections.--Morgan 01:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Very good, I shall include page number references. I didn't know that all those editions used the same numbering. --Gamling 18:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Current Projects

  1. Adding References: I've been doing this for awhile but I'm proceeding a bit more systematically. I've been working through Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth alphabetically and checking each entry to see if it has any or sufficient references. In many cases the answer is "no" and I add them. I'm currently in the 'D's.
  2. POME Summaries: Very few of the chapters of The Peoples of Middle-earth have summaries. I've written one for "The Prologue" which wasn't even an active page in TG. I am working on the next chapter now but this will be a slowly done project since it takes time to digest and summarize all of the material in each.
  3. Contributing to The Hobbit Project: Due to my time off after my wife's death I did not get in at the start on the updates to the most popular articles about the book that are likely to be read when the movies appear. It seems to me that there are plenty of contributors for these articles so I decided to update some of the less visited pieces that may still see a surge of reading-hits after the movies are released. I've updated "Dori" and "Fíli" so far, removing the "needs sources" and "needs expansion" messages.

Queen of Faery

Hello Gamling! We noticed here that TG doesn't have an article for the Queen of Faery (mentioned here) in Smith of Wootton Major. Since I noticed that you've created most of our articles for characters and places in this work, perhaps you'd be interested in creating an article for the Queen of Faery (if you reckon such an article would be useful, and if you have time)? --J.R.R. Tolkien 20:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Feel free, J.R.R. Tolkien, to create the article yourself! --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 20:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
I just returned from a vacation trip; I will put this on my list of things to do. --Gamling 22:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, Gamling!--Morgan 09:08, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Grammatical tense in letters

I noticed that you used the past tense when writing the summaries of letters in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (cf. Letter 97 Revision history). Would you agree on changing this to the present tense (which, in my impression, we tend to use for matters appearing in published works)? This if of course not a pressing issue, so I'll will likely only rewrite the tense when there's an occasion to edit a letter.--Morgan 21:27, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with changing the tense if that's the standard. In our manual of style under "Tense" there is only the rule that in-universe articles should be in the past tense but since nothing was said about other articles I just kept using past tense for the letters. Perhaps the Manual could be expanded on this point. --Gamling 22:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Fourth Age years

For the year S.R. 1422 in Appendix B it says:

With the beginning of this year the Fourth Age began in the count of years in the Shire; but the numbers of the years of Shire Reckoning were continued.
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B, "Later Events Concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring"

At the end of Appendix E it also says:

This reckoning was in the course of the reign of King Elessar adopted in all his lands except the Shire, where the old calendar was retained and Shire Reckoning was continued. Fourth Age 1 was thus called 1422; and in so far as the Hobbits took any account of the change of Age, they maintained that it began with 2 Yule 1422, and not in the previous March
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix E

This, I think, clearly shows that we can take Fourth Age 1 and Shire Reckoning 1422 to be synonymous. Fourth Age 1 in Gondorian reckoning is, of course, not exactly the same as Shire Reckoning 1422.

I bring this up because I don't think the note that you've been adding to Fourth Age years is accurate. What do you think? Thanks for sorting out the Fourth Age (and other ages too) years by the way, they were in a right state!-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email 


The problem of assigning events to the proper year in the Fourth Age is something I’ve wrestled with quite a bit. As you noted, in both Appendix B and in Appendix D, Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1442, in the view of the Hobbits. However, the Gondorian system established by King Elessar has the beginning of the year shifted by 86 days, as noted in my Note attached to various Fourth Age years, based on the Tolkien’s explanation:
In the New Reckoning the year began on March 25 old style... The Months retained their former names, beginning now with Víressë (April), but referred to periods beginning generally five days earlier than previously.
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix D, "The Calendars"
The question is whether the Tolkien Gateway standard should be Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1442 or the Gondorian system and the Hobbits' system vary; events are assigned with an acknowledgement of the variation?
Here is what led me to favor the second standard: If Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1422, then to calculate a Fourth Age year you subtract 1421 from a Shire Reckoning date. In the "Later Events" section of the Tale of Years the entry for S.R. 1484 states:
In the spring of the year a message came from Rohan to Buckland that King Éomer wished to see Master Holdwine once again. … It was heard after that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Éomer before he died in that autumn. Then he and Thain Peregrin went to Gondor…
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B, "Later Events Concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring"

If you subtract 1421 from 1484 then the year for all of these events is Fourth Age 63. However, in the "Note on the Shire Records" in the Prologue there is this comment about the Thain's Book that was used by Findegil in Minas Tirith:

That book was a copy, made at the request of King Elessar…and was brought to him by the Thain Peregrin when he retired to Gondor in IV 64.
In this instance S.R. 1484 is equated with Fourth Age 64 and the difference is only 1420 instead of 1421. Since the "Later Events" entry begins with the words "In the spring…" of 1484 and spring would occur in Víressë (April), I believe that all of the listed events occurred in the Hobbits' year 1484 and in the Gondorians' year 64, which began in March. If the Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1422 system is used then these events must all be put into Fourth Age 63, which contradicts the Prologue's information.
In the same "Shire Records" section it is stated that the most important copy of the Red Book was "completed in S.R. 1592 (F.A. 172)." Again the difference is 1420 instead of 1421. If 1421 were subtracted from 1592 then we would place this event in Fourth Age 171, another contradiction with the text. There are thus two instances which support the dates are at odds between the reckonings system.
However, in the "Later Events" section, there is clear support for the synonymous system. For the year 1541 it is stated that King Elessar died on March 1st, and this is specifically said to be in "Fourth Age (Gondor) 120". March 1st is obviously before March 25th, which is New Years Day in the New Reckoning calendar, and obviously 120 is 1421 less than 1541, rather than 1420.
I think that Tolkien himself got confused and created this mess. When he was rushing to complete the appendices for publication he used the Fourth Age 1 is synonymous with Shire Reckoning 1422 standard for the whole "Later Events" section. But, when he wrote the Prologue he used the different standard that matched what was laid out in Appendix D, the Calendars. Thus we in Tolkien Gateway are left with a contradictory situation.
When I updated the Fourth Age years I used Fourth Age dates when given (such as from Durin's Folk or from Peoples of Middle-earth data). When I could determine in which part of the year an event occurred, such as Samwise's elections to the mayorship on Midyear's Day, I put it into the appropriate year (although I left Aragorn's death in 120 since it was so clearly stated). For the Shire Reckoning dates that had no month or seasonal information I put them in the later year and added the warning that they might be in the previous year. However, since the date of Aragorn's death favors the synonymous system I fully appreciate that it's a mess, which is why I haven’t touched the Timeline/Fourth Age article – I wanted to see what others thought before I went too far.
So King Aragorn, what should be the standard for Tolkien Gateway? I am willing to change the Fourth Age years according to any set standard, but I am leery of putting in an explanation as long as the one above in every Fourth Age year article. I am glad though that you've raised this discussion since I am still in doubt myself.
I wasn't aware of these contradictions between the appendices and the prologue. It's interesting that Hammond and Scull did not correct this in the 50th anniversary edition, but perhaps they had a good reason not to (if they were aware of it). I think this is something that we should discuss at a meeting as I know a few other people have opinions on this matter.--00:33, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree with discussing this matter at a meeting and look forward to it.

Linguistic articles

Thanks for creating articles about Elvish words! A few thoughts:

  • Elvish words ((and other invented languages) should be in italics, so please use '''''[word]''''' (five colons) for the first mention of the word.
  • Please add {{title|lowercase}} below the reference template.
  • Perhaps also assign the articles to a word class category.

If you have any comments, please let me know! --Morgan 19:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for these guidelines. When I got started on these articles I was editing earlier articles and the styling was all over the place. I will make the necessary adjustments. --Gamling 19:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Another small point (which you likely already have noticed): something which we really haven't decided is if articles about words should start with a lowercase letter or not. I personally favour to use lowercase (to conform with dictionaries, and to separate these from articles about proper names). Perhaps we need to decide/discuss this in a meeting.--Morgan 20:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with using lowercase letters for word-articles. For example, when I was updating articles about tengwar I didn't know what to do about Vilya. The already existing article was a proper noun discussing the ring Vilya. I added "vilya" the word and tengwa in the body of the article but I think it would be better if we had a disambiguation for "Vilya (ring)" and "vilya" the word/tengwa (all of the tengwa articles start with the name as a word and then discuss the letter). I didn't make these changes at the time because I thought I'd be opening a can of worms for lots of changes to many articles. I agree that this subject would be good for a meeting. --Gamling 20:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

HoMe chapters

I noticed you've been working on creating articles for the chapters of The Return of the Shadow, and therefore created a template for displaying these: Template:HoMe6chapters. I'll add links to new chapter articles once these are created, but feel free to edit the template as you like (or just let me know if you have any suggestions).--Morgan 20:20, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I will continue to add articles and I plan to eventually go through all four books regarding the history of writing The Lord of the Rings.--Gamling 23:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)