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User talk:Sage

Revision as of 22:31, 3 August 2008 by Ælfwine (Talk | contribs)

Sage, welcome!

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Tale of Years

It's a known fact that the Tale of Years is full of mistakes, however, most of these were corrected in the 50th anniversary edition. That should be included as well. -- Ederchil 04:54, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Standards

We should really include this in the welcome message, but just FYI: Tolkien Gateway:Standards. This is in reference to your use of "LotR" in Gildor Inglorion. -- Ederchil 05:39, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Elves

What published works say that elves are taller?

Ælfwine228 20:58, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

  • from the Appendices: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed
Since the writer of the Appendices is a Man, and his readers are also Men, why would he describe the Eldar as tall and not as short?
Some characters, both Elves and Men are mentioned to be tall, and I understand these can be understood as 'relativistic'; for example you can say that the Eldar were tall relative to the other Elves, but still shorter than Men (although this explanation is quite tentative, and plausible only if you want to prove that Elves were shorter). I skimmed through the Silmarillion and saw that while the people of Marach are said to be tall, and while other men described as tall such as Galdor the Tall, most references were about Elves.
  • Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall
  • The seven sons of Fëanáro were Maedhros the tall...
  • their sister was Ar-feiniel the White. She was younger in the years of the Eldar than her brothers; and when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong
  • [Thingol] tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar
  • But Eöl, though stooped by his smithwork, was no Dwarf, but a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri
  • [Maeglin] was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark
I don't argue that the assumption that more Elves than Men tended to be tall, can be proben by a statistical analysis. However if Elves are shorter, why Thingol was to be the tallest of all Elves and Men, and not some Man? Sage 05:56, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Well, Tolkien stated that elves and men were at first "of a like size" (that is probably the best description in the whole legendarium for their size difference) in the BOLT2. If this is true, whether they became smaller in later ages or not, Thingol could easily be the tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar, but that doesn't mean that most elves were taller than men. Also, more elves are described as tall in the Silmarillion than men because the Silmarillion was almost all about elves, and the very few central character men that were in it were often described as tall, such as Tuor and Turin, as were many men of later ages, especially of Numenorian decent.

While the elves may not be shorter than men in general, I do not think it can be said with certainty that they are taller. By the way, can we make a real talk page/forum for this? Ælfwine228 17:48, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

I am new here, I don't know the process so be my guest. But as a last note, I also remember in BOLT 1 that Elves are shorter, and I was shocked. Furthermore, I think I also read a comment that this idea was later dropped. Anyway I hope you are aware that the BOLT books take place in a different 'continuity' and shouldn't be considered as guides for the general canon. Sage 17:51, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps they shouldn't be considered canon, but from Tolkien's Legendarium; Essays on The History of Middle-earth; "...there are Tolkien's latest thoughts, his best thoughts, and his published thoughts and these are not necessarily the same." That is probably the wisest analysis that I have ever read about the world of Middle earth. Ælfwine228 18:31, 3 August 2008 (EDT)