Tolkien Gateway

Forum:Orcs creation theory

Tolkien Gateway > Council > Orcs creation theory

This may have already been covered, but i was thinking, since Yavanna sung about ents and they were made by Eru, and Manwe sung about eagles and were produced, maybe Morgoth sung about Orcs in the Music of the Ainur, and though it may sound bad Eru created them because as he proclaimed during the music

"Eru then publicly rebuked Melkor, saying that all music found its source in himself, and thus Melkor could not create his own song or truly alter the Themes of Ilúvatar. Thus, though Melkor opposed Eru to his last breath, he only furthered the cause of Ilúvatar in new and wondrous ways"

Thoughts?Flame of Anor 07:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

It's an interesting thought, and a possible theory; however the most commonly accepted theory is that the Orcs were created by Morgoth through the torture and mutilation of Elves. Still, it is never absolutely confirmed, so your theory might well be correct. You've come up with a good analysis of the text!-- KingAragorn  talk  contribs  edits  email  18:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Also, since Fea (the flame imperishable) is given by Eru, the first orcs could be corrupted Elves, because the elves had Fea to begin with. But why would Eru continue to give the next and following generations of Orcs Hroa (body) Fea. Therefore, orcs could be formed from the song of Morgoth and Eru could have given them Fea because they serve a purpose in the grand scheme of Eru, as do the Eagles and Ents.Flame of Anor 07:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Any more ideas Flame of Anor
Tolkien never made up his mind for good about the creation of orcs, and while I've seen a number of very interesting theories none of them is any better than any other given our knowledge at the present time (which is not likely to change).
That said, Tolkien did have some interesting musings in Texts VII and VIII of "Myths Transformed", which can be found in _The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring_. He posits that Orcs did fëar (souls). He also considers the possibility of the music being the source of Orcs as it was the source of other evils, but he goes on to suggest otherwise.
I hope that did more clarification than confusion. :) Eldorion
I can understand the first creation and mutilation of Orcs into Elves, or Melkor's song of a short (stunted), elf-like species (Hobbits?) that was twisted with Melkor into evil, but after the first few were created, how did they reproduce? I never heard of a female Orc.--Galdor of the Havens 21:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Although it does not explicitly state the existence of female orcs, it is implied that they exist in many places. In the Silmarillion it says that "the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the children of Illúvatar..." what that is saying is that the must have had Orc females in order to reproduce, it being the same manner that both humans and elves use. LotRfan01 04:36, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I cant really imagine...My God. If you are reading this, DO NOT TRY TO THINK ABOUT IT! I already regret my mistake...--Galdor of the Havens 21:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Can we keep to proper indentation, please? -- Mithrennaith 01:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)