Talk:Celegorm

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Latest comment: 22 June 2023 by Ar-Zigûr in topic Hair colour

Couldn't his hair be light brown? It would then be "fair" and dark. Ælfwine228 19:15, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure we should jump to the conclusion just like if one text listed Celegorm being tall and another stated he was short, we shouldn't assume he was of medium stature :) --Hyarion 00:56, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

The debate on his hair colour should belong to 'discussion' page, he is clearly stated as 'the fair' by Tolkien, and since it's a solid canon reference (and the only one) there's no reason to mark it as 'disputed'. --Amaranth 23:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

+1 Amaranth. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is not a solid canon reference if you're having to assume "the fair" is in reference to his hair color. Furthermore, Tolkien almost exclusively used "fair" to mean beautiful. Unless Tolkien explicitly stated his hair color it should be assumed to be black like his father since it most certainly wasn't red. His brothers who did not have black hair were specifically stated to have red like their mother. They had NO blonds in their lineage. It makes no sense for him to have a hair color different from both parents. If Tolkien wanted Celegorm to be at odds with the rest of his family then he would have stated so.

Hair colour[edit source]

In the Appendix F to The Lord of the Rings there's clear statement on p. 1137: "They [Noldor] were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin." So only Finarfin and his descentants had golden hair, which is solidified by the entry "Finarfin" from the Index of Names to The Silmarillion: "Alone among the Noldorin princes he and his descendants had golden hair, derived from his mother Indis, who was a Vanyarin Elf." And indeed, in The Silmarillion there's no any word about Celegorm's hair colour.

Even if we apply to the Old English rendition of Celegorm's name as Cynegrim Fǽgerfeax, the Old English word "fǽger" means just "beautiful" in it, not "fair" in the sense of golden hair. -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 09:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree. Hyarion (talk) 19:41, 21 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those quotes refer to general characteristics, not to individuals. Míriel was a Noldo, but she didn't have black hair, and there are other examples. I'd like to know where this statement about Celegorm's fair hair comes from, as some artists have also chosed to give him this characteristic. It is notable that Caranthir was called "the Dark" because of his hair, maybe in contrast with his previous brother. --LorenzoCB (talk) 20:06, 21 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, I'm talking about golden hair, which only Arafinwëans had. Míriel either had silver hair or, according to The Nature of Middle-eath, was black-haired just like the other Noldor.
And yes, we have also golden-haired Glorfindel. However, I think it wouldn't be a mere speculation, if I presume that only those Noldor who had Vanyarin ancestors could have golden hair. Sons of Fëanor, of course, didn't possess Vanyarin blood in their veins.
In any case, there was a reason why Christopher removed the mention about Celegorm's golden hair from the published text. It seems that J.R.R. Tolkien abandoned this earlier concept. -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 20:57, 21 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Besides, in the Index of Names to The Silmarillion, quoted above, words "among the Noldorn princes" are used, not "among the Noldor in general" or something like this. Noldorin princes are the sons and grandsons of Finwë, and I think this quote clearly indicates that among all those sixteen male Noldorin elves of the second and third generations only Finarfin and his sons were golden-haired. -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 08:08, 22 June 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]