Tolkien Gateway

Talk:Elwing

[edit] Elwing was not a half-elf

In texts where Tolkien tries to think more profoundly about the half-elven (see below), he doesn’t put Elwing and her brothers as half-elven:

Earendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven),(50) the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Luthien Tinuviel daughter of King Elu Thingol. (...) By the marriage of Earendil to Elwing daughter of Dior son of Beren the lines of the Pereldar (Peredil) were united.​ (HoME 12, "The Shibboleth of Feanor")

Pay attention to the fact that Eluréd e Elurín are older than Eärendil, but Tolkien ignores them in the list. Possibly a "half-elf", before the judging of the valar, was only the son/daughter of a union between elf and human, the grandsons and so on weren't half-elven.

Anyway, I couldn't find any canon source in which Tolkien puts Elwing as a half-elf. Sorry my bad english Haran 20:53, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the confusion here is "Half-elven" as a title (which applied just to Elrond, Elros and Eärendil) and "half-elven" as a genetic fact (which did also apply to Elwing et al.) The Silmarillion is clear that both Eärendil and Elwing (and their sons) were given free choice to decide under which kindred they be judged (this is the chapter "Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath"). --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 14:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
But I think "half-elven" as a genetic fact (i.e., before the choice of Eärendil e Elwing) was not applied to Elwing, Eluréd and Elurín, as we see in the text from Shibboleth. And "half-elven" as a title is applied to Elrond, Elros and the sons of Elrond only. Haran 17:18, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

There is no canon source about Elwing being a half-elf, as I tried to show in 2014. Am I wrong? If I'm not, the encyclopedia should remain neutral about this issue. Haran 02:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Other texts that corroborate what I said:

Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil (Half-elven),. but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.' (The problem of ros.)

And in The Silmarillion:

Bright Eärendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths; and he took to wife Elwing the fair, and she bore to him Elrond and Elros, who are called the Half-elven.​
Half-elven: Translation of Sindarin Peredhel, plural Peredhil, applied to Elrond and Elros, 304, 315, 322, 354, 357; and to Eärendil, 298​

We see that Dior says "I am the first of the Peredil", as if it was a self-evident, biological fact. Elrond and Elros, in their turn, are only "called" the half-elven. In the text of the Shibboleth, Eärendil is the second Pereldar, in the first (biological) sense. Therefore, Elured and Elurín (which are older than Eärendil) are not half-elven. What is a little awkward, but not so much - the son of Mithrellas (if her legend is true) probably was a half-elf in that biological sense, but the grandsons and so on weren’t. Therefore, Elwing was not a biological half-elf, and, it seems to me, she wasn't called half-elf either. Haran 20:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not what the Other infobox is for. Do not change it again. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 07:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Why not? We don't have a perfect classification to Elwing's condition in terms of elf/man/half-elf. "Other" is a way to avoid definite it (after all the "other" label is a neutral label). Anyway, if your problem with my editions is only this point, you shouldn’t have reverted all my edits (in the Elwing article but also in other ones, like Elrond, Elros, etc), where I tried to avoid categorical affirmations that Elwing was a half-elf.... Haran 19:40, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Do you dispute that Elwing was able to choose to between the two kindreds? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
No, of course. Being a so called "half-elf" was not a necessary condition to "choose to between the two kindreds". Perhaps "having mortal blood" was, but wathever, what I affirm is that Elwing was not (as far as we know for sure) considered a "half-elf", in the both senses the word appears in the legendarium. Haran 19:40, 14 May 2018 (UTC)