Talk:Fell beasts

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Latest comment: 21 July 2023 by Ar-Zigûr in topic Renaming

Article title[edit source]

Tolkien uses the term "fell beast" on at least one other occasion, where it doesn't specifically seem to refer the flying steeds of the Nazgul:

"Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts." (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Breaking of the Fellowship")

Although "fell beasts" seems to be a commonly used "fanon" name, I would therefore suggest that we move this page to either Hell-hawks or Nazgûl-birds (of which perhaps the former is to prefer, since it occurs in the LotR proper). What do you think? --Morgan 18:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An argument to keep "fell beasts" might be that it is used twice in the Pelennor chapter, while the other terms only occur once each.--Morgan 18:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Since Fell beasts are usually known as Fell Beasts and the name is used a few times in the Pelenor-battle chapter I think we should keep it as Fell bests.. --Amroth 19:55, 9 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks, Amroth. I also spoke with an admin on the IRC who was of the same opinion as you. I guess we should leave the article title as it is.--Morgan 17:23, 10 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The need to keep the title seems inescapable, but the article doesn't reflect that a) these flying creatures were never given a name by Tolkien - "fell beast" is simply a description like "brown horse" - and b) there was only one - hidden deep in the background notes somewhere is the information that the other Nazgûl steeds were large vultures, not relatives of the one Eowyn killed. It took me 25 years and a nudge from someone else to find that out.
The use of "fell beast" as a name came along with the movies, and useful as it is, as a name it's an "adaptation", not a Tolkien original. Likewise, re the other terms he himself used, "hell hawks" was an imprecation by someone in the battle, and although "Nazgûl-bird" was a term Tolkien used himself (Letters p 115), it doesn't apply to the one killed by Eowyn and Merry ...
I would suggest quote marks, but that might be felt to be a bit fiddly. 29 April 2019

There are more names and descriptions, more or less vague or referring both to the steed and the rider or not specifically to either of them. The most common seems to bee "winged shadow". Tik 12:47, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

  • wraiths on wings (II/4.2.) - by Gollum
  • hell-hawk (III/5.4.) - by Beregond
  • [one of the] foul thing[s] (III/5.4.) - by Beregond
  • messenger of Mordor (II/3.11.)
  • Black Wings (II/4.3.)
  • winged Nazgûl (II/3.3.) - by Grishnákh; (Appendix B)
  • [great] winged creature (I/2.9.); (II/4.3.); (III/5.6. twice)
  • winged steed (II/3.5.)
  • Winged Messenger (II/3.5.)
  • winged shadow / winged Shadow (III/5.1.); (III/5.2.); (III/5.3.); (III/5.5 thrice)
  • great beast (III/5.6. twice)
  • a vast winged shape (II/3.11.)

P.S. In Ardapedia the article is named "Geflügelte Wesen" (winged creatures), and in Kontuwiki "Sormusaaveiden siivekkäät ratsut" (winged steeds of the Ringwraiths).

The term "winged creatures" is used once by Frodo in the sentence "And these winged creatures that they ride on now, they can probably see more than any other creature." in the chapter The Black Gate is Closed. In the next sentence he compares them to great carrion birds ("They are like great carrion birds."). The singular from "winged creature" is used by the narrator (i.e. not by a character, but by J.R.R. Tolkien) once in the chapter The Great River ("Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night.") and twice in the chapter The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. It seems that J.R.R. Tolkien never gave a proper name to them and it is unclear if "winged Shadow" refers only to the beasts or to the Nazgûl riding on the beast (i.e. to their combination). --Akhôrahil (talk) 08:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agreee with Morgan, that the term "fell beast" is used twice after the death of Théoden in the chapter The Battle of the Pelennor Fields in LOTR for the beast that the Witch-king rode on ("They looked in wonder at the carcase of the fell beast that lay there; and their steeds would not go near." and "So they laid them apart from their foes and the fell beast and set spears about them."). --Akhôrahil (talk) 08:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Adaptations[edit source]

The current text about PJ's films has:

"Also, they are much larger than is implied in the books, where they are essentially used as light observation planes."

I don't agree with this observation; Tolkien writes about the fell beast: "it grew beyond the measure of all other things that fly". An (?over-)interpretation of this quote would imply that they actually were larger than dragons!--Morgan 17:23, 10 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So…apparently these things showed up in a flashback in The Rings of Power?—-172.69.33.213 03:18, 24 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Aren't those dragons? --LorenzoCB (talk) 13:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Renaming[edit source]

Since in the entry "Nazgûl" from The Lord of the Rings Index these steeds are explicitly mentioned as the winged creatures (without any capitalization), I propose to rename the article. -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 08:25, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Winged Shadows doesn't fit well because this term is properly applied to the Nazgûl and their steeds, but not the steeds separately. -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 06:56, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am against renaming the page to winged creatures. Which edition of LOTR are you using? If you are using the 50th anniversary edition from 2005 or a later edition that was edited by Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull you can read that the index was written by Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull and that only the parts of the index within square brackets (i.e. [...]) are the notes and 'translations' that J.R.R. Tolkien added to the old index that was not written by him. As a consequence, any content of the index, which is not within square brackets is not an authoritative source. The text "; mounted on winged creatures" in the entry Nazgûl in the index of the 50th anniversary edition of LOTR is not withing square brackets and was not written by J.R.R. Tolkien. In addition, "winged creatures" is not capitalized (i.e. it is not written as "Winged Creatures") and is thus not a proper name. The history of the index of LOTR is explained by Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull in their The Lord of the Rings - A Reader's Companion. I recently explained that on reddit in r tolkienfans. --Akhôrahil (talk) 08:18, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay, then what about the "Nazgûl-birds"? I think this term fits much better since J.R.R. Tolkien used it in his Letter 100. -- Ar-Zigûr (talk) 08:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]