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Talk:Half-elven

This article incorrectly states "the half-elven were given a choice to be counted as one of the Eldar (Elves), thus being immortal, or one of the Edain (Men), thus being mortal." Only Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, and Elrond's children were given that choice. All other Half-elven were born mortal. Michael Martinez 05:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Can anyone prove that all other half-elven people were born mortal? This whole article is a sticky subject.
It's true, the half-elven choice did not apply to ALL half-elven people, but some must have been born Eldar, like Dior and his line. Otherwise, Dior could note have worn or used the Silmaril to restore Doriath. Earendil must have been Eldar by default because otherwise the Silmaril would have burned him. However, Mithrellas, the wood-elf companion of Nimrodel, had mortal children, and that's probably why she left her family rather than watch her husband and half-elven children grow old and wither while she remained behind. She did not have a divine bloodline nor a special doom. Her bloodline is seen later in the Third Age in Prince Imrahil.
I love this topic, but it's so messy. I'm concerned that no matter what is written on this page and what is ref'd, people will disagree with it because the evidence is thin and scattered. It's dangerous to have any statements of total exclusion or sweeping inclusion on this page. Everything will need a qualifier or a terse statement with a ref and no suppositions stated as fact. I don't even know what to do with the current things placed as refs on this page, maybe notes. (revised) --Elf-esteem 21:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
[If Silmaril-holding is used to judge mortality or immortality, then Beren must have been immortal. As well as Luthien after her return as a mortal. I don't think it can be used that way, especially as Dior, Elwing, Earendil, all grew at the rate of a mortal rather than that of Elves] Unsigned comment by 86.8.142.167 (talk).

[edit] The old refs

I pulled the note and these refs out:

1) "Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendil I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendil: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them..." - J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Lost Road and Other Writings, "Part Two: Valinor and Middle-earth before The Lord of the Rings, VI. Quenta Silmarillion"

2. Among all the Half-elven whose Elvish ancestry is documented, Eärendil is the most Vanyarin of them, being five-sixteenths Vanyarin through his five-eighths Vanyarin mother Idril.

3. Lúthien was considered to be of the Eldar, not the half-elven; however, she was technically half-elven since only her father was an Elf. Her mother, Melian, was one of the Maiar, an angelic holy being. Though she did actually give up her mortality so her husband would be brought back to life, she was still considered one of the Eldar and never of the half-elven or Edain.

4. Eluréd and Elurín were captured by the servants of Celegorm and abandoned in the forest, thus dying before their decision as to their kindred could be made.

5. It is uncertain whether Elladan and Elrohir chose to be of the Edain or the Eldar; this information is not given in the books. However, since their choice was expressed by whether they would follow their father to Valinor at the time of his own departure, and they were described as remaining in Rivendell, they are often said to have chosen the Edain.</ref>

If anyone believes they should still be there or could fit better somewhere else, there they are. --Elf-esteem 21:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

This is very kind of you but slightly unnecessary: the history tab of an article shows all the previous revisions from when the article was created. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:31, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Overview

Is it redundant or necessary? --Elf-esteem 21:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I think the heading is redundant but not all the content: it mostly belongs in "History" whilst some of it could be moved/copied in to the introductory paragraphs. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 11:33, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Handling the Silmaril

Some of the previous editors incorporated into this article the point that Dior and his family were originally considered Eldar, making a point that they all handled the Silmaril, which would not suffer mortal touch. I have moved this reference to appropriate points in the article. On a second thought, the possession of the Silmaril isn't a proof of its possessor's elvishness; it was not a Silmaril per se, but it was fastened already on the Nauglamir. The wearer of the Nauglamir didn't necessarily also touch the Silmaril itself, after all Morgoth wore the Silmarils on his crown. Sage 10:24, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah that makes sense. I checked the reference in the ovotl and CT made a note about Dior that could reinforce it
"§9 It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwë Dior Thingol’s Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother."
Gaetano 23:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
That's a great quote, unfortunately it's too early (1930s I think) to take it into account. I wonder if something about it could be found in the Later Silmarillion era. Sage 06:19, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes the quote and reference is from the 1930s. There isn't anything written about it in the Later Silmarillion phase (as far as I can tell). Gaetano 22:32, 22 July 2020 (UTC)