Tolkien Gateway

Talk:Harad

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[edit] War Icons thumbnail

It looks good to me without the border/caption. No objections here, though I don't mind it with the caption/border either. --Hyarion 13:54, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Narfil, I added the frame so we could have a description indicating the icon was Howe's work, not Tolkien's. I agree that the image looks better frameless, but I also think we need to describe where the image came from. Anyone else have an opinion? --Ebakunin 13:58, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
Kind of off topic but this reminds me I need to make a {{johnhowe}} template, anything by John Howe we put that template in there and it will say By John Howe http://www.john-howe.com or something a bit fancier. We also need to go back and put where these images can be found (which books, boardgames, etc.) as well as where to purchase them. Another possibility for the war icon is to mention it is by John Howe within the article. --Hyarion 14:29, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Revisions

Could someone please replace the non-canonical map with a river flowing from the south-east of harad flowing into the bay of Umbar with the canonical General Map of Middle-earth from LOTR that shows Umbar, Near Harad and Far Harad? There is no reference that the Haradrim came into contact with Sauron during the second Age. As far as I recall it is only mentioned that Sauron had troops from the South during the War of the last alliance of elves and men. --Akhorahil 14:56, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

There is a lot of overlap with the article about the Haradrim. Maybe the article should be restricted to the geography and climate and the history should be restricted to the Druedain wandering through, Harad probably being discovered by Aldarion and some people living at or Near the by of Umbar so that the Numenoreans could pick up the name "Umbar" from them. Most of the history should be in the articles about the Haradrim, Umbar, the Black Numenoreans, Gondor or some of the gondorian Kings and stewards. --Akhorahil 08:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with most of your points. Naturally when talking about the history of the area there will be some overlap when talking about its peoples, but we just have to be mindful of what to include and decide if its relevant. I made some quick revisions on the text to make it more about 'Harad' and removed some sentences that I believe is not useful, though it can be added back if some disagree.
It is certain that Sauron came in contact with the Haradrim in the Second Age, I put a reference to that on the article but the line is "And in the south and in the further east Men multiplied; and most of them turned to evil, for Sauron was at work."
I removed two images and kept one for the peoples. Unfortunately we don't have any images of the geography of Harad so this is something to look for in the future. Gaetano 15:06, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I know it seems likely that those Men in the South were Haradrim and I'd like to believe they are too, but it is not definitive because those Men may be a seperate ethnic group in the South altogether. There's no room for speculation so the detail should be removed.--WhiteWizard 18:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The description "A vast hot area, filled with deserts and jungles" after "Description" in the info box is specutlative and does not have a reference. J.R.R. Tolkien never mentioned that Harad included "deserts" or that it included "jungles". That is pure speculation. Elephants or camels can also survive in normal woods, savannas or in landscape with a mediterranean climate. The Statement "Haradrim" after "Inhabitants" in the info box is speculative. We do not know, whether there were other inhabitants or not (e.g. Dúnedain or Black Númenóreans in Umbar or further down the coast). Umbar is part of the geographical Region of Harad (Haradwaith) and the inhabitants of Umbar could also have included other groups of inhabitants. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The statement about the Númenóreans teaching agriculture and craftsmanship refers to men in Middle-earth in general and does not mention the Haradrim. We do not know where that was. That they taught the Haradrim in Harad is speculative and should be cleary disclosed as a speculation. The statement that the Númenóreans became more ruthless and enslaved refers to men in Middle-earth in general and does not mention the Haradrim. We do not know where that was. That they were ruthless against the Haradrim and that they enslaved the Haradrim is speculative and should be clearly disclosed as a speculation. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The statement that King Elessar Extended his realm south, reconquered Umbar and much of Harad's western coast is a speculation. That is not included in Gondor and the heirs of Anarión in appendix A and not included in The House of Eorl in appendix A, which are provided as references for this statement. The statement that Harad's eastern lands remained Independent is speculative. We do not know what happened in the Fourth Age. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The Statement that much of Far Harad was a jungle and that there was also a desert is speculative and does not have a reference. The Statement that the Oliphaunts lived in Far Harad is speculative and does not have a reference. We do not know, whether they lived in Near Harad or Far Harad or in both regions. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I like you^. I say that you should go forward with this cleanup. There's so much speculation on so many pages as well.--WhiteWizard 18:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I guess the speculation about oliphaunts can be sourced on the Baynes' map (although Tolkien's draft wrote elephants on Near Harad. The same map also suggests that camels live on Near Harad. Sage 05:52, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
  • I am not aware of much of the geography if its described like that in any text, but it seems you know more than me and if its pure speculation as you said then it should be edited, though the only way for sure is to look at the edit history and question the editor where he/she got that info from but seeing that its a very old article the editor may be inactive.
  • The info on the Númenóreans is mostly inferred to in the texts. Men of Middle-earth can apply to Haradrim, Harad is part of Middle-earth. Since the article is about Harad it is sensible to alter the wording to suit the subject.
  • Inhabitants can be expanded further, what I added was just a placeholder.
  • For the last paragraph I added those two references from Appendix A because it didn't have any references and those two are the only ones that I am aware of that mentions what happened to the region at the end of the story. I also thought that the lines about the western coasts and eastern lands was speculative but I didn't think it was too ridiculous but it can be edited if you or others feel its too much no probs. Gaetano 16:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Actually, Tolkien made it rather clear that Harad (generally defined as the area south of Gondor/Mordor) had deserts, though you have to delve deep to find the evidence. In early drafts, part of Harad was called the Desert of Lostladen (among other similar names, Lothlann/Lothland). This name didn't make it into the final map, but also, in the published version of the The Two Towers, Gollum refers to the area south of Mordor like this: "and further still there are more lands, they say, but the Yellow Face is very hot there, and there are seldom any clouds, and the men are fierce and have dark faces." And Tolkien said in an interview published in Niekas, issue 18, in response to a fan's question "What is east of Rhûn and south of Harad?", that "Rhûn is the Elvish word for 'east'. Asia, China, Japan and all the things which people in the west regard as far away. And south of Harad is Africa, the hot countries." That said, I don't believe Tolkien ever said Harad had "jungles"--just "dark forests" with "apes" (though in fairness, it wouldn't be too much of a leap to intepret "dark forests" with "apes" in "Africa" as being jungles). Protospace 07:39, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox image change

Proposal from Akhorahil to change the map to File:Christopher Tolkien - Map of Harad.jpg because the current image is non-canonical. Gaetano 16:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The map in the info box is a part of the map that was made by Daniel Reeve (www.danielreeve.co.nz Projects -> The Lord of the Rings -> Maps as the "First merchandising map Middle-Earth" for The Lord of the Rings films that were directed by Peter Jackson. It is non-canonical, because it includes a river that flows into the bay of Umbar and another river flowing to the Belegaer further south of Umbar, which is not shown on the General Map of Middle-Earth that was drawn by Christohper Tolkien based on a map that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien. --Akhorahil 17:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I tried to include the part of the General Map of Middle-earth with Harad on it that was made by Christopher Tolkien and that was published in earlier editions of LOTR and uploaded by Gaetano in the infobox, but either the size is too large or I made a mistake, because it did not fit into the infobox and covered the whole breadth of the screen. --Akhorahil 08:37, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
There you have :) You need to include the size in the link of the image (250px generally in infoboxes) and the caption in the caption section. Also, before saving, click on "Show preview" to be sure everything is all right. --LorenzoCB 08:59, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Lorenzo, I was in the process of doing it but you got it done before me :) I think the image change is fine because the previous map was from an adaptation as Akhorahil pointed out so I don't believe it needed that many votes. Gaetano 09:05, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Lorenzo and Gaetano for uploading the map, linking it to the infobox and explaning that adding the 250px parameter in the file statement is necessary for pictures in infoboxes. I did not know that. --Akhorahil 09:42, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

[edit] Migrating to Harad

I deleted that speculative statement that Men migrated west from Hildorien and reached Harad and settled in the area that had the chapter Of Men from The Silmarillion as a reference for that Statement. In the chapter Of Men in The Silmarillion nothing is said about Men reaching "Harad" and settling "in Harad". It only says that Men woke in Hildórien and spread and wandered (from there) West, North and South. In that context South is to the south of Hildórien and not the geographic area to the south of Mordor that was called Harad or Haradwaith on the General Map of Middle-earth. We only know that Hildórien was somewhere in the east of Middle-earth so to the south of there may be some other geographic area. The next statement that the Drúedain moved trough Harad and turned north before they reached the coast in the First Age is sufficient and there the reference clearly says that the Drúedain came from lands south of Mordor and turned north into Ithilien before they reached the coasts of Haradwaith. --Akhorahil 14:56, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Disagree. That statement is inferred to in the text. Sometimes you will never find information that is explicitly said in the text and if you are going to keep at this line of thought, you are limiting yourself of what details you can add to articles. And that line from The Silmarillion is not being used to say that they travelled south and reached Harad, they could have moved west and then south or south and then west or whatever way, it is left vague.
The original statement is the most bare bone explanation of how Men arrived to Harad based on what we know. If you want a speculative sentence then stating that the "ancestors of the Haradrim reached the Anduin and built boats and sailed down the river and settled in Harad" is one. Gaetano 17:40, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
I disagree. The statement was speculative. A Migration of men in the First Age to Harad and a settling of Men in Harad is NOT mentioned in The chapter Of Men in the Silmarillion. The speculative statement can NOT be inferred from this reference, because we simply do not know to where in the south Men spread to. We so not know when other groups of Men than the Drúdain reached Harad and when they settled there. We do not know if it was in the First Age or in the Second Age. We only know from the chapter The Drúedain that the Drúdain migrated from the south of Mordor into Ithilien across the Anduin to the White Mountains and then on to Beleriand in the First Age and this is why I left The statement about the Drúedain in the First Age subsection of the History section. The statement about Men in general was phrased Like a fact and not like a speculation (it lacked any "It is possible", "probably", etc.) In addition, it was in a section with the title First Age, although we so not know when Men other than the Drúedain moved there. --Akhorahil 18:14, 20 November 2020 (UTC)