Tolkien Gateway

Talk:Serpent Lord

I think this article should mention the fact that the title "Serpent Lord" is Jackson's not Tolkien's. The book only talks about the chieftain of the horse men of the Haradrim, no title is given. --Earendilyon 06:31, 24 June 2006 (EDT)

Agreed. Go ahead and change it. Or, if you wish, I will. --Narfil Palùrfalas 10:35, 24 June 2006 (EDT)
Other way around. Jackson only lists him as "Haradrim Leader". Théoden refers to him as the "dark serpent" and the text describes him as the chieftain of the "Black Serpent", but both are just descriptions. I'll fix the problem. Anyone know where the title "Serpent Lord" came from? --Ebakunin 12:35, 24 June 2006 (EDT)
The "Black Serpent" was a title given to the banner and lord of the Southrons, who had cavalry mounted on horses, not Mûmakil who came after the cavalry. I highly doubt that Jackson associated the two. --Narfil Palùrfalas 13:24, 24 June 2006 (EDT)
There are two connections between the characters: (1) Jackson only shows the Haradrim on Mûmakil during the Battle of Pelennor Fields. (2) Haradrim Leader #2 was slain by a thrown spear from a leader of the Rohirrim, which Jackson's made Éomer instead of Théoden. --Ebakunin 14:32, 24 June 2006 (EDT)
When we read the passage about the chieftain of the Haradrim and Théoden thoroughly, we see there is no-one called "Serpent Lord" nor that the chieftain's banner is titled "Black Serpent":
Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out, and in the growing light he saw the banner of the king, and that it was far ahead of the battle with few men about it. Then he was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud, and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet, he came against the white horse and the green with great press of men; and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars.
Then Théoden was aware of him, and would not wait for his onset, but crying to Snowmane he charged headlong to greet him. Great was the clash of their meeting. But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest. Right through the press drove Théoden Thengel’s son, and his spear was shivered as he threw down their chieftain. Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer; and the black serpent foundered. Then all that was left unslain of their cavalry turned and fled far away. - The Lord of the Rings, Book V, Ch. 6: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
So, I think that both the title "Serpent Lord" and the title "Black Serpent" are someone's "fan fiction". The latter is maybe based on Thódens dying speech to Merry where he says "I felled the black serpent." But also here, it's not really a title, IMHO.
I agree. I read both passages before I responded. But as Théoden referred to it as the "black serpent", and the standard was that of a black serpent. Since the chieftain's standard was that of a black serpent I think well that he could be called the "Black Serpent", just as in feudal England the Duke of Soandso would be often called, for instance, Richard Soandso. Perhaps that is a bad example. Anyway, we are left to wonder if Théoden refers to the chieftain or the standard. Both would be considered a "victory", affecting the morale of both armies. I have never seen "Serpent Lord" before, either in the books or in the movie. --Narfil Palùrfalas 12:34, 25 June 2006 (EDT)