Tolkien Gateway

Talk:War of the Dwarves and Dragons

Is this actually a thing? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:02, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

It's described as a war in App A, but it should have the Unnamed template (as added now by Sage).--Morgan 08:29, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Where does it call it a proper war? Because I can only find two dates of when dwarves began to be troubled by dragons and when they moved away. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 08:49, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Section "Durin's Folk", a couple of paragraphs in.--Morgan 09:49, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Is the text clear about the War's timeframe? Is Scatha mentioned in context of the war? If yes, should we readd him in the article, and extent the timeframe back to TA 2000 (since it's the approximate date of Scatha's death)? Sage 10:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

From what I can see the text doesn't mention Scatha in the context of this war.--Morgan 10:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

[edit] Appropriate name?

First off, this name is obviously a snowclone of "War of the Dwarves and Orcs". Second, there's not much to indicate that this is a war, as much as it's simply a period of very similar conflicts happening within a certain time-frame.

Wouldn't a more appropriate title for this article be "Dragon invasion of the Grey Mountains" or "Re-Awakening of the Dragons"? EldritchNexus 14:14, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I was a sceptic (see the above conversation), but the quote in Appendix A states: "But there were dragons in the wastes beyond; and after many years they became strong again and multiplied, and they made war on the Dwarves, and plundered their works.". So I don't agree with changing the name (if I were to change it to anything I'd drop "the"). --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 18:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, the name is still an uninspired rehash of "War of the Dwarves and Orcs". Why not the "Dwarven-Dragon War" or something like that? EldritchNexus 19:43, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Not only is there the "War of the Dwarves and Orcs", but also the "War of the Elves and Sauron", so the name "War of the Dwarves and Dragons" is consistent with Tolkien's terminology. Furthermore, I don't have a problem with an "uninspired rehash" if it means people can easily find the article. I'm not sure how your suggestion would improve the situation, as people are more likely to search for "dwarves" than "dwarven" (our software currently doesn't give suggestions for similarly-named articles). Why do you think we need to change the article's name? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 22:40, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
But "War of the Dwarves and Dragons" isn't the canon name for this conflict, and it's literally just "The War of the Dwarves and Orcs", except "Orcs" is replaced with "Dragons". This is basically what people try to do to make something fit in by giving it a variation of an already-existing name instead of simply trying to make it sound unique. Just because there have been a couple instances of "The War of X and Y" in the legendarium doesn't mean that every war is going to be named that way, or we'd be calling the "Battle of Greenfields" the "Battle of the Orcs and Bullroarer Took", or "War of the Ring" the "War of the Free Peoples and Mordor and its Allies", or the Kin-strife the "War of one part of Gondor and another part of Gondor".
Please, just change this uninspired copycat, and totally NON-CANON name to something else. ANYTHING ELSE. Not once is it ever called "The War of the Dwarves and Dragons" in the Legendarium, so why should we insist on calling it that here?". Besides, the Dragons did more than attack the Dwarves, so the name is too specific. I recommend calling the article "Dragon-raids" or "Dragon-strife", since those names are much simpler and describe the attacks more accurately without being "melodramatic". EldritchNexus 01:21, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
So your problem with the name is purely that it is matches other names Tolkien used? That sounds like a benefit to me. Your argument that "Not once is it ever called "The War of the Dwarves and Dragons" in the Legendarium, so why should we insist on calling it that here?" is a bit of a non-starter because that is true of any name we choose for the article (including your own suggestions). E.g. Isn't the "Dragon-strife" just an uninspired copycat/obvious snowclone/uninspired rehash of "Kin-strife"?
I favour leaving the article where it is. I hope other editors will contribute as I have nothing further to add. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Then what about "Dragon-raids" or the "Dragon Invasion of the Grey Mountains"? Those aren't snowclones or rehashes. The reason why I brought up the "they aren't brought up in canon" thing is because I'm pointing out how needless it is to defend this article's current name, when there are PLENTY of other things that you could call it instead. This is something that could be resolved in five minutes but the way you're making it, it'll take five years. And there's still the fact that more than Dwarves and Dragons were involved in these conflicts, if Fram is any indication, so calling it by its current name is totally pointless as it is.
Besides, don't you think we'd want them NOT to have similar names if they didn't to begin with? I ask this since the two articles will both be brought up in the search engine, by which point, they will more likely be looking for "War of the Dwarves and Orcs". And since "Dragons" alphabetically precedes "Orcs", it'll just bring up confusion. EldritchNexus 18:04, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
The arguments raised for moving this fail to convince me. It can stay as it is. --Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 21:13, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Okay, here's my final suggestion, since I'm as sick of this argument as you guys are: "Dragons' Invasion of the North". EldritchNexus 18:19, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

[edit] New suggestion for a name.

Here's a name that's brought up in The Lord of the Rings: War in the North: "Scourge of the Dragons". It's used by Gloin when you tell him about the Dwarves in Nordinbad. It's a name used in adaptations, but it's as good as any. EldritchNexus 01:26, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I think we concluded above any discussion about a new name. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 10:14, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
We should use it anyway. EldritchNexus 02:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed it, since nobody else could be bothered to do so. Trust me, it's better this way. EldritchNexus 06:44, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Why don't you guys just change it to that, anyway? "Scourge of the Dragons" sounds a lot better and a lot less derivative than "War of the Dwarves and Dragons". 20:35, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
"Scourge of the Dagons" is an artstic name and seems to me more derivative that "War of the A and B" which is neutral and straightorward. Sage 11:19, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
And how is it derivative? How many times has "Scourge of [X]" been used to describe an event? Also, please fix your spelling. 13:17, 27 December 2016 (UTC)