Tolkien Gateway

Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/4 March 2012/Transcript

--- Day changed Sun Mar 04 2012
13:28 < Ederchil> Welcome to the nth meeting! In attendance are Amroth, Ederchil, Morgan, Pallando. Absent are KingAragorn and Astald
13:28 < Ederchil> Doesn't KA have a standard for that?
13:28 < Morgan> :)
13:29 < Ederchil> First point: Discussion of what should be done to improve Bilbo Baggins.
13:29 < Amroth> http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bilbo_Baggins
13:30 < Ederchil> Well, for one, the double header under Genealogy needs to go.
13:30 < Pallando> Agreed.
13:30 < Amroth> +1
13:31 < Amroth> Maybe splitting Early Information and Adventures.
13:31 < Amroth> There's some pre-Hobbit information in UT,
13:31 < Ederchil> Yes.
13:32 < Ederchil> I don't like the names section
13:32 < Amroth> A section about the Long Expected Journey, I think we can find enough information for that.
13:32 < Ederchil> * Early life
13:32 < Ederchil> * The Hobbit
13:32 < Morgan> Names: should it be simplified?
13:32 < Pallando> +1 A dedicated section to the upcoming movies
13:32 < Ederchil> * 2950-3001
13:32 < Morgan> For example,
13:33 < Ederchil> I'm still fleshing out History
13:33 < Morgan> *Names given to Bilbo during his conversation with Smaug: ...
13:33 < Ederchil> * Long Expected Party
13:33 < Ederchil> * Rivendell
13:33 < Ederchil> * Passage West.
13:33 < Ederchil> ?
13:34 < Amroth> We should also mention Bilbo's travels to Dale.
13:34 < Pallando> I don't mind that, except I would leave "2950-3001" to "The Years Between"
13:34 < Ederchil> I couldn't think of a title
13:34 < Amroth> Agree with Pallando.
13:35 < Pallando> Some title, rather than numbers. Raw numbers are a bit daunting to newcomers.
13:35 < Ederchil> It wasn't meant as a title
13:35 < Ederchil> just a description of the era
13:35 * Pallando nods
13:36 < Ederchil> Rivendell would need something about the travel to Dale
13:36 < Amroth> Personally I prefer Adventures as tittle for The Hobbit.
13:36 < Ederchil> Also not meant as a title.
13:36 < Morgan> Oh, just found that the double header under Genealogy derives from a template
13:36 < Pallando> Orly
13:36 < Ederchil> Needs a
13:37 < Pallando> I retract my previous +1 re: movies, as there is already an article for them. :)
13:38 < Morgan> Yeah, I'm not so found about special sections for the movies
13:38 < Ederchil> Just as part of Portrayal
13:38 < Morgan> yep
13:38 < Amroth> I think that could be dealt within portrayal.
13:38 < Pallando> Especially when there's more depth in a dedicated article.
13:38 < Ederchil> Which is a bit concise
13:39 < Amroth> Though, we could split it in movies and games (as Morgan suggested).
13:39 < Pallando> I like the categorization of the History section btw, Ederchil, regardless of title.
13:39 < Morgan> *tittle
13:40 < Pallando> +1 Subsections for In Movies & In Games under "Portrayals..."
13:40 < Ederchil> Oh yeah. I knew I forgot something. I was supposed to come up with a draft for that after the last meeting
13:40 < Ederchil> Or was it two meetings ago?
13:41 * Pallando wasn't at either :)
13:42 < Ederchil> Does anyone have other suggestions?
13:42 < Morgan> Any ideas for the names section?
13:42 < Ederchil> Shove it under Etym
13:42 < Amroth> Other versions of the legendarium
13:42 < Amroth> And more expansion in adaptations.
13:43 < Pallando> Nah, maybe under History?
13:43 < Pallando> I don't think etymology's the right place for epithets and titles.
13:43 < Morgan> But...didn't we agree last meeting to have one section for "Etymology" and one for "Other names and titles"?
13:43 < Ederchil> I honestly can't remember
13:43 < Amroth> Wasn't that more like 7 meetings ago.
13:44 < Amroth> When we were discussing IPA.
13:44 < Ederchil> Wow. Pallando, now you can see how effective these meetings are ;)
13:44 * Pallando shrugs :)
13:44 < Pallando> I'm logging so we can make "action items" afterwards :)
13:45 < Ederchil> Yeah, we need a transcript too
13:45 < Pallando> On it.
13:45 < Ederchil> So, just to recap:
13:45 < Morgan> Where are the old transcripts?
13:45 < Amroth> Well, someone has to add outcome.
13:45 < Ederchil> * History
13:45 < Ederchil> ** Early life
13:45 < Ederchil> ** Adventures
13:46 < Amroth> Like here:
13:46 < Amroth> http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolkien_Gateway:Meetings/6_March_2011
13:46 < Ederchil> ** The Years Between
13:46 < Ederchil> ** The Long Expected Party
13:46 < Amroth> Morgan: http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Category:Tolkien_Gateway_Meeting_Transcripts
13:46 < Ederchil> ** Journey to Dale/Rivendell/Whatever
13:46 < Pallando> My other suggestion would be to discuss normalization at a later meeting.
13:46 < Pallando> That's nice, Amroth.
13:46 < Ederchil> ** Passage West
13:46 < Morgan> Here's the etymology stuff: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolkien_Gateway:Meetings/8_January_2012/Transcript
13:46 < Ederchil> * Etymology
13:47 < Ederchil> * Other names
13:47 < Amroth> At begin or end of transcript?
13:47 < Ederchil> * Other versions
13:47 < Ederchil> * Genealogy
13:47 < Ederchil> * PiA
13:47 < Morgan> (just do ctr+f Etymology)
13:47 < Ederchil> Did I forget anything?
13:48 < Morgan> I don't think so
13:48 < Ederchil> Next point?
13:48 < Morgan> Maybe
13:48 < Amroth> Maybe "Names and titles" instead of only "Other names", or doesn't Bilbo have any titles?
13:48 < Morgan> ** PiA Films
13:48 < Ederchil> ** PiA Games
13:48 < Morgan> ** PiA Games
13:48 < Morgan> ** PiA Other
13:48 < Pallando> ** PiA
13:48 < Pallando> *** Films
13:48 < Ederchil> ** PiA Board.Card
13:48 < Pallando> *** Games
13:48 < Pallando> **** Card
13:48 < Pallando> **** Board
13:49 < Amroth> ****Merchandise
13:49 < Ederchil> Working on that
13:49 < Morgan> Hm
13:49 < Ederchil> Probably have time to do it on wednesday
13:49 < Amroth> Though, maybe we should just have Films, Games and Other.
13:49 < Morgan> Can't a title be said to be a kind of name?
13:50 < Pallando> A title's a formal one, though.
13:50 < Amroth> I will try to expand FOTR and WITN next weekend.
13:50 < Pallando> I'd agree with that, Amroth - simplify as much as possible.
13:50 < Ederchil> +1 Amroth
13:50 < Amroth> I already did 1982 Hobbit and 1990 FOTR.
13:50 < Ederchil> We might need to discuss a Decipher policy with that, though
13:51 < Amroth> Does anybody have 2003 Hobbit and Aragorn's Quest?
13:51 < Ederchil> I have 2003 Hobbit
13:51 < Ederchil> not played in a while, and I lost all my savegames
13:51 < Ederchil> Last time I played, I was stuck at the trolls
13:52 < Morgan> Just a thought about these video games: can't many be found on YouTube? Then it's easy for anyone to check the validity of a statement
13:52 < Ederchil> Many have walkthroughs
13:52 < Morgan> I just did that for the BfM-e Rise of the WItch-King stuff
13:52 < Amroth> Personally I prefer chapter sources.
13:53 < Ederchil> Or both
13:53 < Morgan> I understand your point, Amroth, but isn't it important to be able to check the reference? A reference "inside" a game requires you to actualy play through it!
13:54 < Morgan> And if it's an old game, you might not be able to run it on a modern computer
13:54 < Morgan> +1 Ederchil, when possible
13:54 < Amroth> I see what you mean.
13:54 < Ederchil> Try War of the Ring, for example.
13:54 < Ederchil> You can't play it on Vista
13:54 < Ederchil> Well, you can, but you can't save
13:55 < Amroth> I can't save my WotR :(
13:56 < Ederchil> I never got past level 2 because it's a pretty boring game
13:56 < Pallando> Heh
13:56 < Amroth> I doubt, though, that all games have a walkthrough on youtube.
13:56 < Amroth> I think it's a great game.
13:56 < Pallando> Someone fire up an XP vm and do one!
13:56 < Amroth> Especially the Catapult level is nice.
13:56 < Ederchil> WotR doesn't, IIRC
13:57 < Morgan> Sure, I just mean that when a statement is questioned or controversial, it might be good to make a reference to a video clip of the game (when such are found on youtube)
13:57 < Ederchil> A sort of "pics or it didn't happen" policy?
13:57 < Amroth> Morgan's video does only include the movie, though.
13:58 < Amroth> only the movie*
13:58 < Ederchil> And the walkthrough of FotR ignores Arwen.
13:58 < Morgan> Eerchil: maybe only for questioned or controversial statements
14:00 < Ederchil> brb
14:00 < Amroth> I doubt that walkthroughs will focus on story and background.
14:01 < Morgan> For example, when the new user questioned Arveleg I as being part of the Rise of Witch-king,
14:01 < Amroth> They would have to make 3 walkthroughs for WITN for example.
14:01 < Morgan> I did a search on google trying to find a source for it
14:01 < Morgan> First, I only found other wikis, and became a bit sceptical
14:01 < Morgan> But when seeing the film clip from the game, I thought it became clear the new user was right
14:01 < Amroth> As the game gives different information for every playable character.
14:02 < Morgan> WITN?
14:02 < Amroth> http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/WITN
14:03 < Amroth> Well, Arveleg I died in Chapter 4. So it is impossible anyway for him to appear in the Epilogue.
14:04 < Ederchil> The palantir was destroyed before the epilogue
14:04 < Ederchil> IIRC
14:06 < Ederchil> I need to replay it to be sure. I still have savegames.
14:06 < Amroth> I've lost mine, when the old PC crashed :(
14:06 < Amroth> I was at Fornost, but I stopped there.
14:06 < Ederchil> That's my problem with 2003 Hobbit
14:07 < Ederchil> Anyway, are we ready for the next point?
14:07 < Pallando> Sure.
14:07 < Ederchil> Amroth has the floor: his is not meant against anyone, but if I lookto the changes made to The Hobbit this month, we haven't made any improvement on it. It's still a copy of Wikipedia. Although, some section of Sauron and Gandalf have been improved most of the article haven't. If the same happens with the next article, Bilbo Baggins, I fear the Countown will
14:07 < Amroth> I'll replay it one day and rewrite the article.
14:07 < Ederchil> *this
14:07 < Ederchil> *looks up in the sky, whistling innocently*
14:08 < Ederchil> not work as hoped. How can we stimulate people to edit more on the "Countdown"-articles? -
14:09 < Amroth> Does anyone have ideas?
14:09 < Pallando> I'm unclear on the question.
14:10 < Morgan> Someone should win a lot of money and pay the bunch of us to edit full-time
14:10 < Amroth> Can't we let Hyarion pay us.
14:10 < Morgan> :P
14:10 < Pallando> Oh, we need ideas on how to get people contributing :)
14:10 < Amroth> yeah
14:11 < Morgan> yrah
14:11 < Ederchil> Isn't that Mith's job?
14:11 < Ederchil> *hobby
14:11 < Ederchil> *volunteer work
14:11 < Amroth> http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=The_Hobbit&action=historysubmit&diff=186924&oldid=175891
14:12 < Amroth> That's all we changed since the countdown changed.
14:12 < Amroth> It's still a copy of wikipedia.
14:12 < Pallando> What's the 'countdown'?
14:12 < Ederchil> Wait, we still had the screenplay link in?
14:12 < Amroth> I've to go thoug
14:12 < Amroth> Bye
14:12 -!- Amroth [3eeef969@tolkiengateway-ECDDD92B.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
14:12 < Ederchil> Good night
14:13 < Morgan> Pallando: I'll try to find a link for you
14:13 < Pallando> Bug bounties, recognition on the main page of top contributors, etc?
14:13 < Morgan> Or, just look at the main page
14:13 < Pallando> Looking.
14:13 < Pallando> I hate to say it, but ... badges?
14:13 < Morgan> There's a section for the "Countdown to The Hobbit"
14:13 < Morgan> sorry?
14:14 < Morgan> badges?
14:14 < Pallando> I see, so anything and everything related to, but starting from, The Hobbit?
14:14 < Morgan> No, no
14:14 < Ederchil> Do we have badges? Is this Wikia?
14:14 < Pallando> Yeah, little icons near contributors names that indicate their level of contribution.
14:15 < Pallando> I know, I know, I'm just trying to stimulate ideas :)
14:15 < Ederchil> Next thing we know is we'll get that damned Message Wall
14:15 < Morgan> We chose a couple of important articles related to The Hobbit in a meeting
14:15 < Morgan> That need improvement
14:15 < Pallando> Ok, strike that idea! :p
14:15 < Ederchil> I like the unmissable orange header.
14:15 < Pallando> Morgan: Aha, ok. That makes more sense. Is there a list?
14:15 < Pallando> http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Forum:Countdown_to_The_Hobbit:_An_Unexpected_Journey_-_The_Hobbit
14:16 < Morgan> Pallando: ah, now I see - I thought you meant http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Badgers
14:16 < Morgan> Somewhere, I'd guess :)
14:16 < Morgan> KA most often takes care of such things
14:16 < Pallando> Heh, badgers.
14:17 < Morgan> I thought you were dissing my article! ;)
14:17 < Pallando> Well, I'd suggest, at the very least, recognition of the users who are contributing to the Countdown to The Hobbit pages.
14:18 < Ederchil> but how?
14:18 < Pallando> We could write something that counts the number of edits by users during a specific period.
14:19 -!- mib_1sveou [3eeef969@tolkiengateway-87DEAA8D.mibbit.com] has joined #Wiki
14:19 < Morgan> To be honest, though, I'm a bit indifferent to such highlights as "Countdowns". But maybe other users are more keen on it.
14:19 < mib_1sveou> I like the countdown
14:19 < Morgan> Amroth?
14:20 < Pallando> I like the idea of trying to focus the community on a particular set of pages that need improvement.
14:20 < Ederchil> no, mib_1sveou
14:20 < Ederchil> :0
14:20 < Pallando> Heh
14:20 < Morgan> :D
14:20 < Ederchil> I can't believe I actually typed that correctly.
14:21 < Morgan> mib1_1sveou: are you Amroth come back in a different shape, or another user?
14:21 < mib_1sveou> yes, Morgan. (on mobile)
14:21 < Pallando> It's Amroth the White
14:21 < Morgan> Amroth: you should be sleeping now! Are you cheating using your phone in bed!?
14:22 < Morgan> It's school tomorrow!
14:22 < Ederchil> It's only 22:20
14:22 -!- mib_1sveou is now known as Smooth-mobile
14:22 < Ederchil> I'm sure glad I don't have the Monday 9 lecture like last semester
14:22 < Smooth-mobile> brb
14:23 < Morgan> Alright, any more input on the Countdown stuff?
14:23 < Ederchil> Other than, "I really should do something"? Nope.
14:24 < Morgan> Yeah, that's the problem! ;)
14:25 < Pallando> Heh. I like it? Is that input?
14:27 < Morgan> Something drastical would be to remove copied text completely
14:27 < Morgan> Then users would be "forced" to add information
14:27 < Pallando> Well, maybe on the discussion page, we can have an explicit list of sections that need to be rewritten because of being copied.
14:28 < Morgan> Fair enough
14:28 < Morgan> We often do something similar with hidden comments within the articles
14:28 < Ederchil>
14:29 < Morgan> I remember that user Gamling, who often seems keen on doing this kind of work, has asked for more such comments
14:29 < Morgan> Especially in articles which have a {{Rewrite}}
14:29 -!- Smooth-mobile is now known as Amroth-mobile
14:29 < Pallando> Ah, well, that is a good idea. Something in-line that is a todo, notes or otherwise, is useful. It might be good to then have something there that does point to the discussion page.
14:30 < Morgan> (i.e., to explicitly state that this section needs a rewrite because of being copier word-for-word)
14:30 < Morgan> *copied
14:30 < Amroth-mobile> i hate autoconfirm
14:30 < Amroth-mobile> maybe on the forum page
14:31 < Morgan> So, in other words, I think it's naive to expect that such large articles as The Hobbit, Bilbo Baggins, etc will quickly be fixed (within a month).
14:31 < Ederchil> I think you are correct.
14:32 < Pallando> For larger things like that, someone should prioritize what parts need rewritten.
14:32 < Amroth-mobile> I fear I've to agree
14:32 < Morgan> Yeah
14:32 < Pallando> That way, folks that are looking to do a little here or there can have some direction.
14:32 < Morgan> Yes, that's often how you work on a wiki.
14:33 < Pallando> :)
14:33 < Pallando> I'm suggesting that *we* direct them a bit more.
14:33 < Morgan> "you" as in the "general you", of course! :)
14:36 < Amroth-mobile> Should we then use more time for these articles
14:36 < Amroth-mobile> so we've one finished article instead of 3 unfinished
14:37 < Morgan> Not sure
14:38 < Morgan> I'd guess we can just leave as it is, hopefully new users will be attracted because of the Hobbit films and start editing those articles anyway
14:38 < Morgan> Even though it might be after our Countdown has finished
14:38 < Amroth-mobile> maybe
14:39 < Pallando> I expect we'll get an uptick after the movie, too.
14:41 < Morgan> You know, we all have different reasons for being on TG - personally, I'm attracted to how useful it is to have a hyperlinked database, so I can add all those little notes about odd publications and letters, linguistic stuff, etc. I didn't join TG to work on the Frodo and Legolas articles, even though I occasionally do edit such "main" articles.
14:42 < Ederchil> That's pretty common on wikis, actually.
14:42 < Morgan> Yeah, I guess it's often a problem with wikis, as well
14:42 < Pallando> I agree with that. I do see the need for some pulling together to do housekeeping every now and again.
14:43 < Amroth-mobile> Same as Morgan here
14:44 < Ederchil> Legolas has been needing attention for how many years now?
14:45 < Morgan> In my opinion, our great advantage is that we currently are many editors which are serious and knowledgable. If someone tries to add (often unknowingly) false information, we don't let it pass. And slowly, the information already found on the wiki will be improved, with references and editing of copied text. But it's not anything which will be done quickly!
14:46 < Pallando> Agreed.
14:47 < Pallando> How are we on topics for this meeting?
14:47 < Morgan> :)
14:47 < Ederchil> Really? Because I have no idea if Finarfin's hair is black ro blond
14:47 < Ederchil> I think we're through the topics
14:48 < Ederchil> Shall we call the meeting closed?
14:48 * Morgan is out with the dog - will be back in 20 minutes if meeting is still running
14:49 < Morgan> yeah, I think we can close
14:49 < Pallando> +1
14:49 < Morgan> Ederchil: thanks for leading
14:49 < Amroth-mobile> I think we're done
14:50 < Ederchil> Then I officially declare this meeting over.