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Talk:War of Wrath

2021-08-24T21:17:08Z

172.70.126.189: responded to the original question about total numbers for the Elves and the Western Host

Question about numbers given in "war of the wrath"

Strengths: Morgoth--Hundreds of thousands or millions

Valar--millions?

If Fingolfin came with approx. 5000 or so (which seems a reasonable number) and his host was greater than Feanor's, and the majority of the Noldor came back to Middle-Earth. How many would've been left in Valinor? Perhaps a few thousand? It is implied that the Noldor outnumbered the Vanyar, so there would then have to be less than approx. ten thousand Vanyar.
Since it is stated rather clearly that Elves were not in the habit of having large numbers of children, (Feanor and his wife having seven children in six childbirths is a rare exception.) How would a few thousand Noldor left in Valinor and several thousand (maybe?) Vanyar multiply in only five-hundred years into "millions?"

If 2500 Noldor remained and there were 7500 Vanyar total, that leaves 10 000 total.

Approx. half would be female, but probably not all female Elves would wed and have children. If they had approx. 2.4-2.7 children on average each, how many children would each generation add? Elves being immortal would probably not have children in the same manner as Men, so five hundred years might allow for, what, five to seven generations of Elves? Even with these very rough numbers, it seems that it would take far longer for Elves to number anywhere near the "millions" given. Unless, of course, the original numbers for Fingolfin's and Feanor's hosts are way off--though they seem reasonable based on the only actual numbers quoted, that being Turgon's army of ten-thousand at the Nirnaeth.

:I think your last sentence sums it up in that the original numbers are way off, and that there were far more Nolder who Exiled to Middle-Earth than ~5,000 to 8,000. My personal number puts it more like ~200,000 (~75k under Feanor and ~125k under Fingolfin/Finarfin). Only a few (probably dozens?) turned back with Finarfin, and possibly another several thousand were lost crossing the Helcaraxe. In the end, I would say at least 190,000 Nolder made it to M-E. Of those who remained in Aman, Nolder and Vanyar, I would estimate their number at ~100,000. I could see them easily multiplying to a couple million in 500 years. Now, could they have multiplied enough to provide "millions" for an army? No. An army of 500,000? Sure. Also, please don't assume that Turgon sent Gondolin's entire army to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I'd guess half at most.

== infobox ==

Should the infobox of this page be changed to the war infobox instead of the battle one, because of the name? Also, because there were many minor battles in this conflict including the Battle of Eglarest. More info about the minor battles should also be included. Please advise--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 02:57, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
:I think you have a point. I'd like to see if any other objects before doing the change. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 09:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
:I also agree that this is technically a war, but this infobox was used because it is part of the [[Battles of Beleriand]]. Also we don't have much idea of other battles within this one, so I don't think we really need the other infobox.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 12:20, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
: I agree with the logic, however as Lorenzo pointed out there is not much known of the other battles that occurred save for a few and from what I can remember there are a some inconsistencies and contradictions of the different accounts found in SiLmarillion and in HOME. Though I do kinda like how its part of the 'wars of beleriand' umbrella. I would like to know what others thing about this as well. [[User:Gaetano|Gaetano]] 11:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

== Sauron as a commander ==

I don't recall The Silmarillion having Sauron participate in the War of Wrath. Sure, he came in its aftermath in a fair guise before Eonwe, but the last we hear of him as the lieutenant of Morgoth is in Beren and Luthien, where Huan and the Elf-Maia maiden defeat him and he cedes the keys of the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth - he then flees as a great bat to lick his wounds and evade Morgoth's scorn, filling Taur-nu-Fuin with terror. I read somewhere (a note probably) that J.R.R. considered Sauron at some point as being responsible for the capture of Maeglin, but given the name appears only in brackets and his part in Morgoth's plans concerning Gondolin does not appear in published work I think it's safe to assume that Sauron remained hidden until and during the War of Wrath, given there's no explicit mention of him playing an active role on Morgoth's side. So might we remove him from the commanders' list? --[[User:LordoftheEarth|LordoftheEarth]] 13:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
:Sounds accurate to me. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 16:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

:Yes. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 16:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Orodreth

2021-07-18T16:43:03Z

172.70.126.189: /* Arrival of Beren */ fixed a small grammatical error in which I moved the word "only" from in front of ten companions and to in front of Edrahil.

{{disambig-two|the Elf of Nargothrond|the Steward of Gondor|[[Orodreth (Steward of Gondor)]]}}
{{noldor infobox
| name=Orodreth
| image=[[File:Marya Filatova - Artaresto.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Artaresto" by [[Marya Filatova]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[oˈrodreθ]}}
| othernames=''Artaresto'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]])
| titles=[[King of Nargothrond]] [[Lord of Narog]]<ref>{{CH|8}} = {{UT|Narn}}.</ref>
| position=Warden of [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]] ({{FA|60}} - {{FA|457|n}})
| location=[[Tirion]]; [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]]; [[Nargothrond]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]]
| birth=between {{YT|1300}} and {{YT|1495|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Tirion]]
| rule={{FA|465}} - {{FA|495|n}}
| death={{FA|495}}<ref name="GAS275">{{GA|275}}</ref>
| deathlocation=[[Battle of Tumhalad]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Finarfin]]
| parentage=[[Angrod]] & [[Eldalótë]]
| siblings=
| spouse=Unnamed [[Sindar|Sindarin]] lady<ref>{{PM|Shibboleth}}, ''The names of Finwë's descendants'', ''The parentage of Gil-galad''</ref>
| children=[[Gil-galad]] & [[Finduilas]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Orodreth''' son of [[Angrod]] was a [[Noldo]] of the [[First Age]]. He was the father of [[Finduilas]] and succeed his uncle [[Finrod]] as [[King of Nargothrond]].

==History==
===Early History===
He was born in [[Valinor]] sometime during the [[Years of the Trees]]. His name in [[Quenya]] was '''''Artaresto'''''.<ref name="Shib">{{PM|Shibboleth}}, ''The names of Finwë's descendants''</ref>

During the [[Flight of the Noldor]], Orodreth spoke softly and sought to calm the Noldor.<ref>{{S|Flight}}</ref> After the return of the Noldor to [[Middle-earth]] and the completion of [[Nargothrond]], Orodreth's uncle [[Finrod]] gave the fortress of [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]] to Orodreth's keeping.<ref>{{S|Beleriand}}</ref>

Orodreth held the fortress of Minas Tirith in the vale of [[Sirion]] until [[Sauron]], lieutenant of [[Morgoth]], overran the isle shortly after the [[Dagor Bragollach]] and turned it into [[Tol-in-Gaurhoth]], the Isle of Werewolves, in {{FA|457}}. Orodreth then fled south to [[Nargothrond]].<ref>{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref>

===Arrival of Beren===
When [[Beren]], son of [[Barahir]] came to Nargothrond in {{FA|465}}, Finrod, the [[King of Nargothrond]], went with him on his [[Quest for the Silmaril|quest for the Silmaril]], fulfilling his oath. However, [[Celegorm]] and [[Curufin]], the [[sons of Fëanor|Sons of Fëanor]], were also at Nargothrond at the time, and forced Finrod to help Beren with only [[Edrahil]] and ten companions, and without the help of the majority of his people. Orodreth took up the crown, ruling as a regent, but the sons of [[Fëanor]] held the real power. Curufin called him "a dullard slow" in the ''[[Lay of Leithian]]'', and with his brother Celegorm plotted to take over Nargothrond if news came of Finrod's death. However, when news came that Finrod had been killed and Tol-in-Gaurhoth destroyed, the sons of Fëanor were shamed and fell from power, as the people cried out that the maiden [[Lúthien]] had done what the sons of Fëanor dared not. Orodreth returned to power and expelled Celegorm and Curufin from Nargothrond.<ref>{{S|Beren}}</ref>

===Arrival of Túrin===
In {{FA|490}}<ref>{{GA|267}}</ref>, [[Gwindor]], a prince of Nargothrond and an escaped thrall of Morgoth returning from his captivity in [[Angband]], led [[Túrin]] son of [[Húrin]], a [[Man]] of the [[House of Hador]] to Nargothrond. In Nargothrond, Túrin hid his name, calling himself ''[[Agarwaen]]'', son of ''[[Úmarth]]'' ("Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate"). [[Finduilas]], daughter of Orodreth, fell in love with him, but he avoided her because she had previously been the beloved of his friend Gwindor. Túrin declined to tell her his name, so that she called him ''Thurin'' ("The Secret"). He was also called ''Adanedhel'' ("Man-Elf") because he was so alike to an Elf, though he was a Man.<ref name="CH10">{{CH|10}}</ref><ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref>

His identity did not remain hidden for long. Gwindor revealed to Finduilas that 'Agarwaen' was in fact Túrin, and 'Úmarth' his famous father Húrin. When the news of this reached Finduilas' father, Orodreth, King of Nargothrond, Túrin was given great honor and standing, but the revelation of Túrin's identity would also bring Morgoth's curse with him.<ref name="CH10">{{CH|10}}</ref><ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref>

Túrin became a chief counselor of Orodreth, and was extremely influential in Nargothrond. He encouraged the people of Nargothrond to abandon their practice of secrecy, and they built a great bridge before the gates. Because of his prowess with [[Gurthang]], his black sword, he himself became known as ''Mormegil'' ("Black Sword").<ref name="CH10">{{CH|10}}</ref><ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref>

However, sometime after, two messengers, named [[Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)|Gelmir]] and [[Arminas]], sent there by [[Círdan]], arrived to Nargothrond, delivering the message from [[Ulmo]], Lord of Waters himself, to the King Orodreth, advising him to shut the doors of Nargothrond and destroy the bridge before its gates. At this time Orodreth relied upon the counsel of Túrin, who scorned the words of the messengers, for it was upon his advice that the bridge had been built and it was his policy for the King's forces to go forth openly to war, and sent them away.<ref name="Fall">{{CH|11}}</ref><ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref>

This would prove to be a fatal mistake, since in {{FA|495}}<ref>{{GA|275}}</ref>, Morgoth unleashed his forces at Nargothrond. Led by [[Glaurung]] the dragon, they devastated the army of Orodreth at the [[Battle of Tumhalad]]. In that battle Orodreth was slain, and after that the [[Fall of Nargothrond]] was inevitable, due to the bridge that allowed Glaurung and Morgoth's host to ravage the city, and most of its people were either enslaved or killed (including Orodreth's daughter Finduilas).<ref name="Fall">{{CH|11}}</ref><ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref>

==Etymology==
The name ''Orodreth'' is glossed as "mountaineer", containing Sindarin [[ered|orod]] ("mountain") and ''reth'' ("*climber", from [[RETE]] "climb").<ref>{{PE|17}}, p. 182</ref>

==Genealogy==
<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MIR |y|~|~|~|~|~|~| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | OLW | | | | | | | |MIR=[[Míriel]]''d. {{YT|1170}}''|FIN=[[Finwë]]''d. {{YT|1495}}''|IND=[[Indis]]''b. {{YT}}''|OLW=[[Olwë]]''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree| | | |!| | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | FEA | | FDS | | FNG | | IRM | | FRF |y| EAW | | SON | | | | | |FEA=[[Fëanor]]''{{YT|1169}} - {{YT|1497|n}}''|FDS=[[Findis]]''b. {{YT}}''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]]''{{YT|1190}} - {{FA|456}}''|IRM=[[Írimë]]''b. {{YT}}''|FRF=[[Finarfin]]''b. {{YT|1230}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]]''b. {{YT}}''|SON=''unknown sons''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|^|-|-|-|v|-|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | FRD | | ANG |y| ELD | | AEG | | GAL |y| CEL | |FRD=[[Finrod]]''{{YT|1300}} - {{FA|465}}''|ANG=[[Angrod]]''d. {{FA|455}}''|AEG=[[Aegnor]]''d. {{FA|455}}''|GAL=[[Galadriel]]''b. {{YT|1362}}''|ELD=[[Eldalótë]]''b. {{YT}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]]''b. {{FA}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ORO | | | | | | ELR |y| CLB | | | |ORO='''ORODRETH'''''d. {{FA|495}}''|CLB=[[Celebrían]]''b. {{SA}}''|ELR=[[Elrond]]''b. {{FA|532}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | GIL | | FIL | | ELL | | ELO | | ARW | |GIL=[[Gil-galad]]''d. {{SA|3441}}''|FIL=[[Finduilas]]''d. {{FA|495}}''|ELL=[[Elladan]]''b. {{TA|130}}''|ELO=[[Elrohir]]''b. {{TA|130}}''|ARW=[[Arwen]]''{{TA|241}} - {{FoA|121}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In earlier versions of the legendarium, Orodreth was a more important character, and the original king of Nargothrond. However, his importance diminished over time.

In the published ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'', Orodreth is a son of Finarfin rather than a grandson.

But in later versions, [[Gil-galad]], later [[High King of the Noldor]], was Orodreth's son, but in the published ''Silmarillion'', Gil-galad is made into [[Fingon]]'s son instead. An earlier idea was that Orodreth's son was named '''Hallas''', but Gil-galad replaced him. Since this later revision wasn't integrated in any of his father's narratives, [[Christopher Tolkien]] didn't include it in the published text. However, unlike in the matter of Gil-galad, Christopher Tolkien believed that the decision to make Orodreth the son of Angrod was final.{{fact}}

In his last writings, Tolkien changed Orodreth's name to '''''Artaher''''' ([[Quenya]]) / '''''Arothir''''' ([[Sindarin]]), both meaning "Noble Lord". However, it was never introduced in any narratives, so Christopher Tolkien left the name Orodreth unchanged.<ref name="Shib">{{PM|XI4}}, p. 346</ref>

{{references}}
{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
|race=noldor
|house=[[House of Finarfin]]
|born=during the [[Years of the Trees]]
|died={{FA|495}}
}}
{{seq
|prev=[[Finrod]]
|nvac=None
|next=kingdom destroyed
|list=[[King of Nargothrond]]
|dates={{FA|465}} – {{FA|495|n}}
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Children of Húrin]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Gnomish names]]
[[Category:House of Finarfin]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Noldorin names]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]

[[de:Orodreth (Elb)]]
[[fi:Orodreth]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/orodreth]]