Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

2010-03-27T10:46:48Z

82.176.210.66: /* Mouth of Sauron */

[[J.R.R. Tolkien]] paid a great deal of attention to detail in his [[Secondary world]] to preserve a realistic consistency.

However his work has been admired, studied and analyzed by "[[Tolkienist]]s" over the years in various aspects and levels; unavoidably, some more or less obvious '''inconsistencies seem to have slipped the author's attention'''. Most are revealed after more than one reading of the book and possibly thorough study.

Fans of Tolkien usually accept that in any work there are usually plot holes. In a larger, far more detailed and realistic book we expect fewer (if any) plot holes, when in reality there is a far greater chance because of its complexity.

Any inconsistency can be blamed on the fictitious Tolkien who adapted ancient sources such as the ''[[Red Book]]'' or on the characters who wrote and compiled those sources. Tolkien himself mentioned in [[Appendix D]] that he might have made many errors on the calendar while "translating" the "ancient sources", a comment written as a fail-safe for any narrative mistakes the author possibly made.

Such explanations attributing the mistakes to the "translator Tolkien" are easy and unenlightening. Therefore many fans prefer to explain those inconsistencies with some internal explanation. The explanations below of are this type. For example, at least some of the logical mistakes can be attributed to the characters themselves who said a contradicting phrase, since none of them is supposed to have the "omniscience" of the author.

==Character mistakes==
===The Eldest===
Possibly the most noticeable inconsistency in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' is that both [[Tom Bombadil]] and [[Treebeard]] are referred to as the [[eldest]] being in [[Middle-earth]]. Tom says that about himself,<ref>{{FR|I7}}, "Eldest, that's what I am.... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn." </ref> and [[Elrond]] mentions that the Elves knew Tom as "oldest and fatherless".<ref name="CofE">{{FR|II2}}</ref> However, [[Gandalf]] tells [[Théoden]] that Treebeard is "the oldest of all living things",<ref name="Isengard">{{TT|III8}}</ref> and Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest".<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[Many Partings]]"</ref>

;Explanation: Maybe Tom is not "alive" as Treebeard is<ref>Tom Shippey, ''The Road to Middle-earth: Revised and Expanded Edition'', p. 107</ref> (though he seems to be). On this subject, Gandalf, [[Saruman]], and [[Sauron]] have existed far longer than Treebeard, as they are [[Maiar]], but they haven't been alive (in a physical body) as long.

===Sam's spying===
[[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] tells [[Frodo]] that as a result of [[Sam Gamgee|Sam]]'s eavesdropping, he and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] "know most of what Gandalf has told you about the [[One Ring|Ring]]".<ref name=ACU>{{FR|I5}}</ref> But most of what Gandalf told Frodo was in one long conversation, at the end of which Gandalf caught Sam,<ref>{{FR|I2}}</ref> and Merry says that after Sam was caught, he "seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up".<ref name=ACU/>

;Explanation: Maybe Sam's information was what he learned before he was caught, though that's not what Merry says.

===A choice of dangers===
[[Aragorn]] tells the hobbits, as they prepare to leave [[Bree]], "After [[Weathertop]] our journey will become more difficult, and we shall have to choose between various dangers."<ref name=Strider/> The ridges they have to climb after Weathertop may be more difficult than the [[Midgewater Marshes]], but they encounter no dangers on the route Aragorn chooses, and Aragorn doesn't warn the hobbits of any dangers, except the chance that the Nazgûl will find them as they cross the [[Last Bridge]]).<ref name="Flight">{{FR|I12}}</ref>

;Explanation: Aragorn does cite two other possible courses. One is going north through the [[Ettenmoors|Ettendales]] instead of crossing the [[Ford of Bruinen]], but in addition to the danger of [[trolls]], that route would take too long and the Company would run out of food. The other is finding the Ford without following the Road, but that's impossible.<ref>{{FR|I12}}, "'We cannot hope to find a path through these hills. Whatever danger may beset it, the Road is our only way to the Ford.'"</ref> Maybe although he describes these alternatives as impossible when he faces them, in Bree they only seemed to present the danger of taking too long or getting lost.

===Aragorn's knowledge===
Aragorn tells the hobbits in Bree, "I know all the lands between the [[Shire]] and the [[Misty Mountains]], for I have wandered over them for many years."<ref name="Strider"/> But later, speaking of the Ettendales, he says, "That is troll-country, and little known to me," and "I do not know the way" to Rivendell by detouring through them.<ref name="Flight"/> The Ettendales or Ettenmoors are on a line between the Shire and the northern part of the Misty Mountains.
;Explanation:If we take Aragorn's line "wandered over them" literally, we can accept that Aragorn has also wandered over the Ettendales. Of course that doesn't necessarily means that Aragorn should know ''everything'' about those lands, or even know ''all'' ways (e.g., to Rivendell) through them. He does say that he knows those lands a "little".

===Possession of the [[Nine Rings]]===
In ''[[The Council of Elrond]]'' [[Gandalf]] says that the [[Nazgûl]] kept their Rings by saying "The Nine the Nazgûl keep"<ref name="CofE"/>. However in most other references, it is mentioned that Sauron had taken them.<ref>{{FR|I2}}, "the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed."</ref><ref>{{FR|II7}}, "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."</ref> Furthermore, Frodo doesn't see any Rings on them on [[Weathertop]], and it is believed that if they did wear the Rings, they would have been fully [[Unseen|invisible]] (including their cloaks).<ref>http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvRiders</ref>

The line in the Council of Elrond represents Tolkien's earlier intention that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.

;Explanation: The phrase can be also interpreted as "The Nine keep the Nazgûl [in Sauron’s thralldom]"; or as the Nazgûl are Sauron's slaves, his owning the Rings may be equivalent to the Nazgûl's keeping them.
:Additionally, perhaps Gandalf was mistaken.

===Feeling the [[Mithril#The_Mithril_Coat|''mithril'' coat]]===
The mithril coat that Bilbo gives Frodo is "almost as supple as linen",<ref name="Ring">{{FR|II3}}</ref> and Aragorn carries Frodo in Moria (after the orc chieftain spears Frodo) without noticing the coat.<ref>{{FR|II5}}</ref> However, when Bilbo slaps Frodo on the back after giving him the coat, he says, "Ow!... You are too hard now to slap!"<ref name="Ring"/>
;Explanation: Perhaps Bilbo is joking.

===Galadriel's mind-reading===
Galadriel tells Frodo and Sam that she knows Sauron's thoughts that concern the Elves.<ref name="Mirror">{{FR|II7}}</ref> It seems strange that they don't ask her whether she has any information they might find useful and she doesn't offer them any. Also, she doesn't seem to have known about [[Saruman]]'s betrayal some nineteen years earlier, though the defection of a member of the [[White Council]] might be thought to concern the Elves. At least, she didn't warn Gandalf in the messages he got from Lórien after reading the [[Scroll of Isildur]], the year before he trustingly entered [[Orthanc]].<ref name="CofE"/> (Also, when Aragorn was serving in Gondor under the name [[Thorongil]], he "often warned [[Ecthelion II|Ecthelion]] not to put trust in Saruman".<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref> It's strange that he knew not to trust Saruman but Gandalf didn't.)
;Explanation: Conceivably Galadriel gained the ability to read Sauron's mind sometime after the messages went to Gandalf.

===[[Galadriel]]'s role===
Galadriel tells the Fellowship, "I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, or in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be.<ref>{{FR|I6}}</ref> Later she tells Frodo, "I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor."<ref name="Mirror"/> However, the rhyme she sends Aragorn advises a specific course: the [[Grey Company]] should come out of [[Rivendell]], and Aragorn should take the [[Paths of the Dead]].<ref>{{TT|III5}}</ref> Likewise [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]] conclude that Galadriel sent the message to the Grey Company telling them to join Aragorn in [[Rohan]]; this seems to be "contriving" and "choosing between one course and another". Incidentally, it is odd that the Grey Company got this message without knowing who it was from.<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Passing of the Grey Company]]"</ref>

;Explanation: One could imagine that someone else (Celeborn?) made the decisions and Galadriel only sent the messages. Legolas and Gimli may have erred in thinking she was the source.

===Tales of hobbits===
Pippin tells [[Théoden]], "I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits."<ref name="Isengard"/> But hobbits live in [[Bree]], [[Tom Bombadil]] knows many stories about hobbits, one would think the [[Rangers of the North|Rangers]] (who guard the [[Shire]] and Bree) and the Elves of Rivendell (where Bilbo has been living) would know some, and the Elves of Lórien have at least heard of hobbits.<ref>{{FR|II6}}, "We had not heard of—hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year...."</ref>

;Explanation: Pippin has just woken up from a nap, after a lunch that included wine, and is talking to a king for the first time in his life; he may not be thinking clearly.

===Knowledge of the ''Palantíri''===
After Gandalf learns that the crystal ball he has recovered is the ''[[palantír]]'' of [[Orthanc]], he tells [[Pippin]] the [[White Council]] didn't know any of the ''palantíri'' (presumably those of [[Gondor]]) survived disaster in Gondor (presumably the [[Kin-strife]]).<ref name="Palantir">{{TT|III11}}, "It was not known to us that any of the ''palantíri'' had escaped the ruin of Gondor."</ref> However, after [[Denethor II|Denethor]] reveals his ''palantír'', Gandalf claims to have known all along that the [[Stewards of Gondor|Stewards]] had it.<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Pyre of Denethor]]", "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long have I known that here in the White Tower, as at Orthanc, one of the Seven Stones was preserved."</ref>
;Explanation: Gandalf could have learned about Denethor's ''palantír'' by himself, after the last time the White Council met.

===The peril of deep arts===
In connection with the ''palantír'' of Orthanc, Gandalf observes to Pippin, "Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."<ref name="Palantir"/> However, never in ''The Hobbit'' or ''The Lord of the Rings'' does he warn [[Thorin Oakenshield|Thorin]] or the hobbits against using their magic swords, and he returns the [[Phial of Galadriel]] to Frodo and [[Gifts of Galadriel|Galadriel's box of earth]] to Sam. Also, there is no apparent danger in characters' using other products of elven arts (cloaks, ''[[hithlain]]'' ropes, ''[[lembas]]'').
;Explanation: How [[magic]] works is not clear. Parts of the books indicate that the some arts of the Elves despite appearing so, are not "magic". However maybe the ''palantíri'' are "devices" in a sense in which the other things named are not.
:Furthermore, it's possible that Gandalf only attempted to discourage Pippin from his curiosity, knowing that this could connect him with Sauron (as he finally did).

===[[Mouth of Sauron]]===
[[Aragorn II|Aragorn]] mentions that the name "[[Sauron]]" (meaning "Abominable") is the name used by his enemies, and Sauron himself does not permit it to be pronounced.<ref>{{TT|III1}}</ref> Therefore it would be problematic, if not logically impossible for a servant of Sauron to have a title or name that includes the word "Sauron".

;Explanation: It could be that Aragorn was mistaken.

;Another explanation: Maybe the Mouth of Sauron, and he only, was permissed to use the name Sauron to show his power and status.<ref>Erucarno/Oromë, [[Midden-aarde Essays]], ''De Mond van Sauron'' ([[Mouth of Sauron|The Mouth of Sauron]])</ref>

==Factual mistakes==
===[[Doors of Durin]]===
The name ''[[Moria]]'' means "Black Chasm" and was a derogatory description of the place which the [[Dwarves]] did not like much; it was given after [[Durin's Bane]] took over the city and it was overrun by [[Orcs]]. It is therefore a paradox why that name appears on the [[Doors of Durin]] (''Ennyn Durin Aran Moria''), made in the [[Second Age]], and with the consent of the Dwarves.

;Explanation: An "external" explanation is that since the translated [[Norse]] names [[Durin (disambiguation)|Durin]] and [[Narvi]] are seen in the inscription, ''Moria'' may also be a "translated" name.

===[[Eagles]]===
One of the best-known alleged plot holes is why the Eagles came to carry Frodo and Sam back from [[Mount Doom]] but did not help them to fly the [[One Ring]] there. While there are many counter explanations, it is a logical gap why this idea was not proposed in the [[Council of Elrond]].
;Explanation: See [[Eagles#Flying_the_Ring_to_Mount_Doom|here]] for a more detailed discussion.

===Distances===
The distances of the Dwarves' travel to [[Rivendell]] in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' seem to have different proportions than those in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Tolkien tried to reconcile the ''Hobbit'' description with the scale of the ''LotR'' map but couldn't find an appropriate solution.<ref>{{HM|RS}} p. 204</ref>

While Frodo and his companions needed 28 days from [[Hobbiton]] to [[Rivendell]] (10.7 miles/day)<ref name="atlas">[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]''</ref>, [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] calculated that Bilbo and [[Thorin and Company]] needed 38 days (17.5 miles/day)<ref name="atlas"/>. [[Andreas Moehn]] goes further and supposes that Thorin and Co. wanted two weeks from the [[Trollshaws]] till Rivendell (a distance which [[Glorfindel]] covered in two days), resulting in c. 48 days total.<ref>http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref>.
;Explanation: The distances and days are not described in the narrative and can be measured only by references such as the moon phases and other fan calculations; therefore there can be a margin of miscalculation.
:In general, perhaps the Dwarves are by nature slower travelers than the Hobbits.

===Moon phases===
Tolkien was particularly careful about the phases of the [[Moon]] in the ''LotR''. Yet some mistakes did elude him. See for example [[January 13]], [[January 16]], [[February 22]], [[September 22]].

In general, it is possible that Tolkien consulted a modern almanac to model the moon phases, and also possible that he confused the meanings of "New Moon": the astronomical (the moment when the moon is darkest) and the colloquial (appearance of the new crescent moon).<ref>http://shire-reckoning.com/moon.html</ref>

Another mistake appears in ''The Hobbit'': [[Bard I]] killed [[Smaug]] "at the rising of the moon"<ref>{{H|15}}</ref> when "the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his [Smaug's] great wings... the waxing moon rose higher and higher". Also the [[thrush]] tells Bard, "Wait! Wait!... The Moon is rising." <ref>{{H|14}}</ref> However, according to astronomy<ref>http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref> a waxing moon rises only in the morning, after the sun.

;Explanation: The moon could have been waning and setting in the ''west'' (not rising from the east), thus helping Bard kill Smaug.

===Shadow over Eregion===
While the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] traverses [[Hollin]], they see and feel a flying shadow over them.<ref name="Ring"/> Since no other such phenomena occur, when the [[Fell Beast]]s are introduced, the reader makes such a connection. However later we learn that Sauron did not permit the Nazgûl to traverse west of the [[Anduin]] after their accident at [[Bruinen]].

;Explanation: Possibly it was a "lost" or "disobeying" Nazgûl who despite orders found himself prematurely west of the Anduin, or simply something wholly unexplained and unrelated to the Fell Beasts. Perhaps it was some feeling of foreboding as they would eventually have to go to Moria.

===Beater and Biter===
The swords [[Glamdring]] and its "mate" [[Orcrist]] are found in a [[Troll]] hoard, said to belong to King [[Turgon]] of the [[First Age]]. They never appeared much in battle (Turgon fought only in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]) and they were witnessed only by the Orcs of Beleriand.

After the fall of Gondolin, the swords somehow were carried from the ruin of [[Beleriand]] to [[Eriador]]. It is however questionable how the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] did recognize them by their names.

The Orcs don't seem to react similarly in the sight of Glamdring in ''LotR'', nor do they seem to recognize [[Narsil]]/[[Andúril]], which is much more "recent".

;Explanation: There can be several theories and explanations of how the swords and their fames reach Eriador. The only problem is the narrative of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', which doesn't justify their significance to the extent of being remembered and recognized by the Goblins of the Third Age, even by tradition.

===The elf-king's favorite gems===
The narration of ''The Hobbit'' says the [[Thranduil|elf-king]]'s favorite gems are "white."<ref>{{H|8}}, "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems...."</ref> However, after the [[Battle of Five Armies]], the narration says, "To the Elven-king he <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Bard]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> sent the emeralds of [[Girion]], such gems as he most loved...."<ref>{{H|18}}</ref>

;Explanation: The sentence is somewhat ambiguous: "he" could refer to Bard or Girion instead of the elf-king. However, the elf-king's preference in gems, not the others', would be relevant to Bard's choice of what to give him.

===Walda's death===
King [[Walda]]'s death date is recorded in [[Appendix A]] as [[Third Age 2851]] but in [[Appendix B]] as [[Third Age 2861]].

===The date of Gandalf's letter===
The letter Gandalf leaves for Frodo at the ''[[Prancing Pony]]'' is dated "[[Midyear's Day]], Shire Year, 1418."<ref name="Strider">{{FR|I10}}</ref> However, Appendix B says Gandalf met [[Radagast]] on June 29, and Gandalf says he left [[Bree]] at dawn of the following day,<ref name="CofE"/> which would be June 30, two days before Midyear's day (as 1 [[Lithe]] comes between).
;Explanation: Possibly someone made a mistake involving the different calendars, though Bree uses the [[Shire-reckoning]] (aside from the number of the year). Perhaps more likely is that Gandalf, who was in a hurry, and traveling for days, confused the passage of time.

==Corrected mistakes==
Several mistakes were simply remnants of earlier concepts of Tolkien, which later escaped his attention when revising the book. Some of them were corrected in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]].
===Bandobras' parentage===
The ''[[Prologue]]'' mentions that [[Bandobras Took]] was the son (not grandson) of [[Isengrim Took II]]. This has been corrected in the 50th Anniversary edition.

===Sam's birth===
In the second edition of ''LotR'', [[Sam Gamgee]]'s year of birth was added to ''[[The Tale of Years]]'' as [[Third Age 2963]]. This contradicts both a later entry in ''The Tale of Years'' and the [[Appendix C]] given as [[Third Age 2980]].<ref>[[Wayne G. Hammond]], [[Christina Scull]], ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', page 716</ref>
===[[Gimli]]'s Axe===
Upon arrival in [[Edoras]], Gimli mentions his axe has touched nothing but firewood since they left Moria. Yet he also claims he and [[Legolas]] killed several Orcs at [[Amon Hen]].
;Explanation: This discrepancy was noted by [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', where they explained why they left it unchanged in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]]. Amon Hen was a week before the Battle of the Hornburg; even for a stout Dwarven warrior, lamenting not killing an Orc for that short period would make him look too bloodthirsty.
{{references}}
[[category:debates]]

Index:Video games by year

2010-03-23T12:02:51Z

82.176.210.66: /* 1983 */

===1979===
* [[The Shire (video game)|The Shire]]
* [[Ringen]]

===1981===
* [[LORD]]

===1982===
* [[Shadowfax (video game)]]
* ''[[Moria (computer game)]]''
* ''[[The Hobbit (1982 video game)]]''

===1983===
* [[Ring of Doom (video game)|Ring of Doom / Ödesringen]]
* [[The Dungeons of Moria (video game)|The Dungeons of Moria]]
* Colossal Adventure
* Adventure Quest

===1984===
* Dungeon Adventure
* Ringmaster(?)
* [[Mario]]
* Der kleine Hobbit

===1985===
* Bored of the Rings
* Lord of the Rings: Game One
* The Mines of Moria
* The Forest of Fear

===1986===
* The Fellowship of the Ring Software Adventure
* The Boggit
* Thror's Ring
* The Ring of Doom
* The Iron Prison
* Jewels of Darkness
* An Everyday Tale of a Seeker of Gold

===1987===
* Bulbo and the Lizard King
* Assault on Dolni Keep
* The Hunt for the Ring
* Quest of Erebor
* Return to Moria
* Haradwaith
* Not Lord of the Rings(?)

===1988===
* Fuddo and Slam
* Shadows of Mordor
* Genesis
* The Bridge of Catzad-Dum
* War in Middle Earth

===1989===
* Retarded Creatures and Caverns
* Crack of Doom Software Adventure
* Bilbo
* The Tolkien Trilogy
* The Balrogian Trilogy(?)
* Belegost

===1990===
* Middle-earth Play-By-Mail
* The Lord of the Rings, Vol. I (Interplay)
* Riders of Rohan

===1991===
* Lord of the Rings (Mah Jongg)
* Middle-Earth(?) (MUD)
* VikingMUD
* NannyMUD
* [[Elendor]]
* Angband
* El Señor de los Anillos, Parte I: La Communidad del Anillo (Libro 1)

===1992===
* The Lord of the Rings, Vol. II: The Two Towers
* MUME: Multi Users in Middle Earth

===1993===
* Nemesis
* The Lord of the Rings MUSH
* Morgul
* Hobbit - The True Story

===1994===
* Mozart MUD
* Quovadis
* The Lord of the Rings & The Two Towers

===1995===
* Mirkwood
* Tolkien Trivia(?)
* Middle-earth: The Riddles
* Lord of the Rings vol. 1 / Seigneur de la Bague vol. 1 (CHAOS Productions)

===1996===
* Kingdom O' Magic
* Elendor Refugee MUX
* The Two Towers

===1997===
* Bilbo Slider Puzzle
* Tolkien WordSearch
* Lord of the Rings: The Duel
* LordMUD(?)
* The Burning Eye

===1998===
* Mordor

===1999===
* Akallabeth MUSH
* Return of the Shadow, or Arda, the Fourth Age
* Mines of Moria
* Mines of Moria II: The Escape Out
* Mines of Moria 3

===2000===
* Manic Miner: The Hobbit
* Jet Set Willy: The Lord of the Rings
* EgoAdventure
* Quest For Mordor

===2001===

===2002===
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)]]''
* ''[[EA's The Two Towers]]''

===2003===
* [[EA's The Return of the King]]
* [[The Hobbit (2003 video game)]]
* [[The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring]]

===2004===
* [[The Third Age]]
* [[The Battle for Middle-earth (PC game)]]

===2005===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: Tactics]]

===2006===
* [[The Battle for Middle-earth II]]
* [[The Battle for Middle-earth II - The Rise of the Witch-king]]

===2007===
* [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar]]

===2008===
* [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Mines of Moria]]

===2009===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: Conquest]]

===2010===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: Aragorn's Quest]]

===2011===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]
===Unknown===
* Carrion Fields
* Hairy Toes
* Nameless MUD
* RealmsMUD
* The Tolkien Affair

[[Category:Games]]

Index:Video games by year

2010-03-23T12:02:23Z

82.176.210.66: /* 1983 */

===1979===
* [[The Shire (video game)|The Shire]]
* [[Ringen]]

===1981===
* [[LORD]]

===1982===
* [[Shadowfax (video game)]]
* ''[[Moria (computer game)]]''
* ''[[The Hobbit (1982 video game)]]''

===1983===
* [[Ring of Doom (video game)|Ring of Doom / Ödesringen]]
* [[The Dungeons of Moria (video game)]]
* Colossal Adventure
* Adventure Quest

===1984===
* Dungeon Adventure
* Ringmaster(?)
* [[Mario]]
* Der kleine Hobbit

===1985===
* Bored of the Rings
* Lord of the Rings: Game One
* The Mines of Moria
* The Forest of Fear

===1986===
* The Fellowship of the Ring Software Adventure
* The Boggit
* Thror's Ring
* The Ring of Doom
* The Iron Prison
* Jewels of Darkness
* An Everyday Tale of a Seeker of Gold

===1987===
* Bulbo and the Lizard King
* Assault on Dolni Keep
* The Hunt for the Ring
* Quest of Erebor
* Return to Moria
* Haradwaith
* Not Lord of the Rings(?)

===1988===
* Fuddo and Slam
* Shadows of Mordor
* Genesis
* The Bridge of Catzad-Dum
* War in Middle Earth

===1989===
* Retarded Creatures and Caverns
* Crack of Doom Software Adventure
* Bilbo
* The Tolkien Trilogy
* The Balrogian Trilogy(?)
* Belegost

===1990===
* Middle-earth Play-By-Mail
* The Lord of the Rings, Vol. I (Interplay)
* Riders of Rohan

===1991===
* Lord of the Rings (Mah Jongg)
* Middle-Earth(?) (MUD)
* VikingMUD
* NannyMUD
* [[Elendor]]
* Angband
* El Señor de los Anillos, Parte I: La Communidad del Anillo (Libro 1)

===1992===
* The Lord of the Rings, Vol. II: The Two Towers
* MUME: Multi Users in Middle Earth

===1993===
* Nemesis
* The Lord of the Rings MUSH
* Morgul
* Hobbit - The True Story

===1994===
* Mozart MUD
* Quovadis
* The Lord of the Rings & The Two Towers

===1995===
* Mirkwood
* Tolkien Trivia(?)
* Middle-earth: The Riddles
* Lord of the Rings vol. 1 / Seigneur de la Bague vol. 1 (CHAOS Productions)

===1996===
* Kingdom O' Magic
* Elendor Refugee MUX
* The Two Towers

===1997===
* Bilbo Slider Puzzle
* Tolkien WordSearch
* Lord of the Rings: The Duel
* LordMUD(?)
* The Burning Eye

===1998===
* Mordor

===1999===
* Akallabeth MUSH
* Return of the Shadow, or Arda, the Fourth Age
* Mines of Moria
* Mines of Moria II: The Escape Out
* Mines of Moria 3

===2000===
* Manic Miner: The Hobbit
* Jet Set Willy: The Lord of the Rings
* EgoAdventure
* Quest For Mordor

===2001===

===2002===
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)]]''
* ''[[EA's The Two Towers]]''

===2003===
* [[EA's The Return of the King]]
* [[The Hobbit (2003 video game)]]
* [[The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring]]

===2004===
* [[The Third Age]]
* [[The Battle for Middle-earth (PC game)]]

===2005===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: Tactics]]

===2006===
* [[The Battle for Middle-earth II]]
* [[The Battle for Middle-earth II - The Rise of the Witch-king]]

===2007===
* [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar]]

===2008===
* [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Mines of Moria]]

===2009===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: Conquest]]

===2010===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: Aragorn's Quest]]

===2011===
* [[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]
===Unknown===
* Carrion Fields
* Hairy Toes
* Nameless MUD
* RealmsMUD
* The Tolkien Affair

[[Category:Games]]

The Shire

2010-03-21T16:02:58Z

82.176.210.66:

{{Disambig-two|the land of the [[Hobbits]|the unofficial videogame|[[The Shire (Videogame)}}

{{kingdom
| image = [[Image:fotr0066.jpg|300px]]
| name = The Shire
| meaning =
| type = Thainship
| hidep=yes
| headofstate = [[King of Arnor]] (de jure), [[Thain]], [[Mayor of Michel Delving]]
| executive = [[Shirriffs]]
| legislative =
| judicial =
| capital = [[Michel Delving]] (de facto)
| size = 18,000 square miles
| language = [[Hobbitish]]
| location = Central [[Eriador]]
| populace= [[Hobbits]]
| currency =
| religious =
| holiday =
| anthem =
| formed = The westward migration of Hobbits led by [[Marcho]] and [[Blanco]]
| established = [[Third Age 1601|T.A. 1601]]
| reorganized = [[Fourth Age 32]]
| fragmented =
| dissolved =
| restored =
}}
'''The Shire''' is the region that is occupied by [[Hobbits]]. It is located in the northwest of Middle-earth, in the 'continent' of [[Eriador]] and the Kingdom of [[Arnor]]. Its name in [[Westron]] was '''[[Sûza]]''' "Shire" or '''Sûza-t''' "The Shire".
==Geography==
The Shire measured 40 leagues (193 km, 120 [[Númenórean]] miles) from the Far Downs in the west to the Brandywine Bridge in the east, and 50 leagues (241 km, 150 miles) from the northern moors to the marshes in the south. All in all, the Shire had an area of 18,000 square miles (47,000 km²). In order for this figure to be accurate it must be assumed that the Shire was roughly rectangular in shape.

The Brandywine ([[Baranduin]]) river bounds the Shire from the east. (Hobbits also live in ''Buckland'', which lies as a narrow slice between the river and the [[Hedge]] but was not formally recognised as part of The Shire until after the [[War of the Ring]]) From the north and the west The Shire has no topographical borders, but rather is bounded by the ancient south and east roads, and by vague geographical features such as the [[Tower Hills]].

The Shire is described as a small but beautiful and fruitful land, beloved by its inhabitants. The Hobbits had an extensive agricultural system in the Shire, but did not proceed with industrialization. Various supplies could be found in the Shire, including cereals, fruit, wood and [[pipe-weed]] (a favourite treat of Hobbits).

The Shire was quite densely populated in parts with many villages and a few towns, but it still was open enough to allow for wide forested areas and marshes.

==History==
The Shire was a fertile and well-tilled part of [[Arnor]], but deserted during the waning days of the Kingdom when it was known as the splinter-realm of [[Arthedain]]; where the Shire was, it had been the King's hunting grounds. The [[Hobbits]] (who lived in [[Dunland]] and parts of depopulated [[Cardolan]] and [[Rhudaur]]) got official permission from King [[Argeleb II]] at Norbury ([[Fornost]]) to settle the lands. This was finally done in [[Third Age 1601]] (Year 1 in Shire Reckoning) by Hobbits from [[Bree]], led by the brothers [[Marcho]] and [[Blanco]].

[[Image:Ted Nasmith - One Morning Long Ago.jpg|thumb|left|250px|''One Morning Long Ago'' by [[Ted Nasmith]].]]
By 30 years later, almost all of the Hobbits of Middle-earth could be found in the Shire, which they divided in 4 [[farthings]], themselves occupied by villages and folklands.

The Hobbits considered themselves as subjects of the King, and sent some support troops to the great battles Arnor fought against [[Angmar]]. After the fall of Arnor, the Shire remained a minor but independent political unit and the title of [[Thain]] was established to fill the absence of the [[Kings of Arthedain|King]].

Its small size, relative lack of importance, and brave and resilient Hobbit population made it too modest an objective for conquest. More important was that the Shire was guarded and protected by the [[Dúnedain]] [[Rangers of the North]] (and [[Gandalf]]), who watched the borders and kept out intruders. The only strangers to enter the Shire were the [[Dwarves]] traveling on the [[Great East Road]] that ran through the Shire to and from their mines in the [[Blue Mountains]], and the occasional [[Elves]] on their way to the [[Grey Havens]].

However Shire faced its adversities since it was inside the range of the [[Great Plague]] of [[Third Age 1636]] and the [[Battle of Greenfields]] ([[Third Age 2747]]) and of course the [[Long Winter]] ([[Third Age 2758]]) soon followed by the [[Days of Dearth]] ([[Third Age 2760]]) and the [[Fell Winter]] ([[Third Age 2911]]). In [[Third Age 2340]] the [[Oldbucks]] of the [[Marish]] because of overpopulation, crossed the [[Brandywine]] and founded [[Buckland]].

During the [[War of the Ring]] the Shire was first visited by the Nine [[Ringwraiths]] and then, while the Rangers were off to the War, the Shire was defenseless. It was captured by [[Saruman]] and [[Lotho Sackville-Baggins]] who lead evil [[Men]]. It was liberated with the help of [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]], [[Sam Gamgee|Sam]], [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] after the end of the War through their victory at the [[Battle of Bywater]].

But the damage which Saruman caused by forced industrialization was undone by the Hobbits' efforts. The Shire was restored with soil from [[Lothlórien]], given to Sam by [[Galadriel]]. [[Third Age 3021]] was considered to be the most productive and prosperous year in their history.

With [[Aragorn]]'s return as the King of [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]], the Shire became in [[Fourth Age 17]] a Free Land, protected enclave inside the [[Reunited Kingdom]]. He is known to have issued an order that forbade the entrance of full-sized [[Men]] into the Shire. In [[Fourth Age 32]] King Aragorn granted Buckland officially as a part of the Shire named [[Eastmarch]], and also extended the land westwards to [[Emyn Beraid]]; this land was named [[Westmarch]].

==Administration==
Initially, The Shire was a part of Arthedain. The Hobbits considered themselves as subjects of the King and only after the fall of Arnor, the Shire became an independent political unit led by the '''[[Thain]]''' from ''[[Tuckborough]]'' who was the head of the important [[Took Family|Took clan]]. While nominally the Thain ruled over the four [[Farthings]], in practice authority was so decentralized that the title was seen as more of a formality and ceremonial.

Official of the Shire was the '''[[Mayor of Michel Delving|Mayor]]''' of [[Michel Delving]] in the [[White Downs]] (by extension seen as the [[Mayor of the Shire]]). The Mayor's chief duties were serving as postmaster of the Shire's [[Messenger Service]], charging the [[Watch]] and presiding at fairs

Finally, the '''[[Master of Buckland]]''' at ''[[Bucklebury]]'' controlled [[Buckland]].
[[Image:fotr0059.jpg|300px|left|thumb|The Shire in [[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring]].]]
The sole law enforcement officials in the Shire were the [[Shirriffs]]. Their job was to protect the Shire from trespassers more than anything. There were three in each Farthing, and were distinguished from "civilians" by a feather worn in their caps. The [[Bounders]] were the land's border-guard, charged with turning back unwanted people or beasts, and their number varied according to need.

The Shire was originally divided in four Farthings (''[[Northfarthing]]'', ''[[Southfarthing]]'', ''[[Eastfarthing]]'', and ''[[Westfarthing]]''), but [[Buckland]] and later the [[Westmarch]] were added to it. Within the Farthings there are some smaller, unofficial divisions such as family lands: the [[Took Family|Tooks]] nearly all live in or near [[Tuckborough]] in [[Tookland]], for instance. In many cases a Hobbit's last name indicates where their family came from: [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s last name derives from ''[[Gamwich]]'', where the family originated. Outside the Farthings, Buckland itself was named for the [[Oldbucks]] (later [[Brandybuck Family|Brandybucks]]). See further ''[[Regions of the Shire]]''.

==Inspiration==
{{quote|Though a Tolkien by name, I am a Suffield by tastes, talents, and upbringing, and '''any comer of that county [Worcestershire] (however fair or squalid) is in an indefinable way 'home' to me, as no other part of the world is.'''|[[Letter 44]]}}
On Tolkien's maps, the Shire is located at about the same position as England is on modern European maps and has been cited as an example of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_England#Deep_England Deep England] ideology (of course, England being an island while Shire is inside the continent). Throughout the narrative, Tolkien also implies numerous points of similarity between the two, such as weather, agriculture and dialect. One can also see England as Tolkien's source of inspiration for the Shire in its very name.

According to [[Paula Marmor]], the hobbit brothers [[Marcho]] and [[Blanco]] names are related to horses, parallel to [[Wikipedia:Hengest|Hengest]] and [[Wikipedia:Horsa|Horsa]], legendary leaders who brought the Saxons to Britain. Hengest was the founder of [[Wikipedia:Kent|Kent]] whose geography is similar to the Shire (North Downs above, hills to the west, water to the east and marshes to the southeast)<ref>''[[An Introduction to Elvish]]'', An etymological excursion among the Shire Folk</ref>.

The industrialization of the Shire was based on Tolkien's witnessing of the extension of the Industrial Revolution to rural Warwickshire during his youth, and especially the deleterious consequences thereof. The rebellion of the hobbits and the restoration of the pre-industrial Shire may be interpreted as a prescription of voluntary simplicity as a remedy to the problems of modern society.

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of the Shire|Images of the Shire]]
*[[Thain|Thains of the Shire]]

{{references}}

[[Category:Shire]]
[[Category:Eriador]]
[[Category:Realms]]

[[de:Auenland]]
[[fr:encyclo:geographie:regions:eriador:comte]]
[[fi:Kontu]]

The Lord of the Rings Online

2010-02-03T19:56:13Z

82.176.210.66: /* Games */

[[Image:Lotro logo.png|250px|right]]'''''The Lord of the Rings Online''''' (commonly abbreviated to LOTRO, LotRO) is the common name for an MMORPG that takes place in the world of [[Arda]] during the time of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]].''
==Games==
* [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar]] - Volume I
* [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Mines of Moria]] - Volume II
** [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Siege of Mirkwood]] - [[Fortress of the Nazgul|Book IX]] and the [[Of Elves and Dwarves|epilogue]] of Volume II
* [[The Lord of the Rings Online: Allies of the King]] - [[Oath of the Rangers|Book I]] of Volume III

==Development==

[[Sierra Entertainment|Sierra]] began to devolope the game in 1998, then called ''[[Middle-earth Online]]''. After Sierra was bought out by [[Vivendi|Vivendi Universal Games]], production of the game was shared with [[Turbine]]. The rights to the game were sold exclusively to Turbine in March 2004 when they announced that the name of the game name would be changed to ''The Lord of the Rings Online''.

While the majority of quests in the game are original content created by Turbine based on the history and lore of Middle-earth, the quests flagged as "Epic" quests depict specific events and scenes from the ''Lord of the Rings'' storyline. While conducting Epic Quests, players interact with the main characters from the books, and assist in the advancing of the story toward the [[War of the Ring]] and the destruction of the [[One Ring]].

The game also attempts to mimic ''The Lord of the Rings'' by being broken down in volumes, books and chapters. The original game is called Volume I and the current expansion is Volume II. Each one of the epic quests are broken down by "Books" and "Chapters".

Turbine has gone to great lengths to faithfully recreate the fantasy world created by J.R.R. Tolkien with a high degree of attention to detail. Essentially every character named in the books appear in the game and can be interacted with during quests and other activities.

==License==

For ''The Lord of the Rings Online'', [[Turbine]] has licensed the rights to the content and lore of ''[[The Hobbit]]'', and ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Turbine does not have license rights to the [[New Line Cinema]] film trilogy nor ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' books or ''[[The Children of Húrin]]''.

==Comparison with Published Works==
''The Lord of the Rings Online'' does not follow the story as told in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', but rather tells stories about events that happened during the same time period as the events told in J.R.R. Tolkien's trilogy.

== Added Elements ==
There are a number of elements that do not appear in any of the published works. This includes characters, lineages, objects and locations.

===Characters===
* '''[[Amarthiel]]''' served for the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] during his first reign over [[Angmar]]<ref>In the game the Witch-king reigned over Angmar again shortly before the [[War of the Ring]].</ref> and wore the [[lesser rings|lesser ring]] [[Narchuil]]. She was slain by [[Narmeleth]] at the [[Battle of Fornost]] and her soul wandered [[Middle-earth]] for over a thousand years. She managed to possess Narmeleth and disguises herself as Sara Oakheart. She eventually revealed herself after the defeat of [[Mordirith]] by [[Golodir]] and becomes the Regent of Angmar.

* '''[[Andraste]]''' was a female [[Men|Man]] who served the [[Witch-king]].

* '''[[Ivar the Bloodhand]]''' was a Gaunt-lord from the [[First Age]].

* '''[[Mordirith]]''' was the Steward of Angmar.

* '''[[Narmeleth]]''' was an elf maiden of [[Rivendell]] and daughter of [[Laerdan]]. She slayed [[Amarthiel]] during the [[Battle of Fornost]] and became possessed by her soul over a thousand years later.

* '''[[Skorgrím]]''' was a dwarf and leader of the [[Dourhands]] he was slain during the Battle of Edhelion. His corpse was used as a vehicle by Ivar the Bloodhand who possessed it with a fell spirit to trick the Dourhands to ally themselves with the forces of [[Angmar]].

* '''[[Sambrog]]''' was the Wight-lord of the [[Barrow-downs]].

===Lineages===
* '''The [[Dourhands]]''' was a clan of dwarves aligned with the forces of [[Angmar]]. They were the dwarves that stayed behind to rebuild the Dwarven Halls in the [[Blue Mountains]] which were destroyed during the [[War of Wrath]].

===Objects===
* '''[[Narchuil]]''' was one of the [[lesser rings]] forged by the elven-smiths during the [[Second Age]].

===Locations===
* '''[[Agamaur]]''' was a vast swamp north of the [[East-West Road]] not far from the [[Last Bridge]]. It was a site of a major battle between [[Arthedain]], [[Cardolan]] and [[Rhudaur]]. To the west is the ruins of Haragmar, a fortress of [[Arnor]]. To the east lies the ruins of Garth Agarwen, a fortress of Rhudaur.

* '''[[Othrongroth]]''' was the oldest and largest Edain mound in the [[Barrow-downs]].

* '''[[Bird and Baby Inn]]''' was an inn in [[Michel Delving]].

==Reception==
''The Lord of the Rings Online'' has been received very positively thus far, as reviews continue to appear since the game's initial release.<ref>[http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/middleearthonline Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar, The - Review] metacritic.com</ref>

GameDaily awarded the game 9/10, praising its rich, fantasy-themed universe, well-integrated trait and title system, and a story that remains true to the works of Tolkien. Yahoo! Video Games wrote a review with few negative mentions, awarding the game a score of 4/5,<ref>[http://videogames.yahoo.com/gamereview?cid=1990963744&tab=reviews&page=0&eid=513259 The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar Review] Yahoo! Games</ref> while ''Computer and Video Games'' called the game an essential purchase for ''Lord of the Rings'' fans, scoring the game a 9.2/10.<ref>[http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161846&skip=yes PC Review: Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar] ''Computer and Video Games''</ref> Eurogamer scored the game a 9.0/10, calling it tough to resist.<ref>[http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=75657 Review - Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar] Eurogamer</ref> Gamespy gave it 4.5/5 stars, claiming the game "opened up Middle-Earth to the masses" but commented negatively on its weak PvP content,<ref>[http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/lord-of-the-rings-online-shadows-of-angmar/785884p1.html The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar Review] GameSpy</ref> while GameTrailers awarded it 8.5/10,<ref>[http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=754 The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar] Game Trailers</ref> citing its interesting tweaks to the MMO genre. IGN.com ranked it a similar 8.6/10, praising it for its solid experience, though criticizing it for its lack of major improvements to the genre.<ref>[http://pc.ign.com/articles/787/787942p3.html The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar Review] IGN</ref> GamerNode.com awarded the game an 8.8/10, calling it the best MMO launch experience since ''Ultima Online''.<ref>[http://www.gamernode.com/PC/Reviews/2848-Lord-of-the-Rings-Online-Review/index.html Lord of the Rings Online] GamerNode</ref> The ''New York Times'' called the game "a major achievement of interactive storytelling, the first game truly worthy of the ‘Lord of the Rings' franchise and a must-play for just about anyone with an interest in Tolkien or the future of online entertainment."<ref>[http://lotro.turbine.com/article/356 Lord of the Rings Online Press Release] Lord of the Rings Online</ref> In a GameSpot review, the product was awarded an 8.3/10, praising its appealing polish and intriguing Monster Play feature.<ref>[http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/middleearthonline/review.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=topten&tag=topten;all;score;5 The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar for PC Review] GameSpot</ref> Gamepro.com's review gave it an overall 4.25/5, pointing out how engaging the epic quests are, as well as how faithful to the novels the game managed to stay.<ref>[http://gamepro.com/computer/pc/games/reviews/112000.shtml Review: The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar for PC] Gamepro</ref> GameSpy declared ''The Lord of the Rings Online'' 'Game of the Month' for May 2007.<ref>[http://uk.gamespy.com/articles/795/795353p2.html Game of the Month: May 2007] GameSpy</ref>

==Awards==

In August 2007, Codemasters announced that ''The Lord of the Rings Online'' had received five Golden Joystick Awards nominations for the five applicable categories for the game,<ref>[http://newsrss.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6925679.stm Music and vice top games awards] BBC News</ref> and in October 2007 that it had won the "PC Game of the Year" at these awards.<ref>[http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7693&Itemid=2 Gears Wins Big at Game Awards] Next-Generation</ref> and again won the same award on October 2008. In December 2007, GameSpy awarded ''The Lord of the Rings Online'' 6th place in the top 10 PC games of 2007.<ref>[http://goty.gamespy.com/2007/pc/6.html GameSpy's Game of the Year 2007] GameSpy</ref> On December 18, Turbine announced it had also won the GameSpy MMO of the Year award.<ref>[http://www.lotro.com/article/476 LOTRO Wins Top Honors from Gamespy!] Lord of the Rings Online</ref> In January 2009, mmorpg.com awarded Turbine both MMORPG studio of the year 2008<ref>[http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/45/feature/2574/Best-MMO-Studio-of-2008-Winner MMORPG.com Best MMO Studo of 2008] mmorpg.com</ref>, and MMO Expansion of the Year for ''Mines of Moria''.<ref>[http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/45/feature/2579 MMORPG.com Best Expansion of 2008] mmorpg.com</ref>

{{references}}

==External Links==
* [http://lotro.com LOTRO website], the offical website of The Lord of the Rings Online.
** [http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Lorebook_home Lorebook], the offical wiki for The Lord of the Rings Online.
** [http://my.lotro.com/ My LOTRO], the offical blog site for The Lord of the Rings Online members and staff.
** [http://forums.lotro.com/ LOTRO Community Website], the offical forms for The Lord of the Rings Online.
* [http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Main_Page Lotro-Wiki], a fan created wiki for The Lord of the Rings Online.

{{lotro}}

[[Category:The Lord of the Rings Online| ]]

Talk:Saruman

2009-11-30T16:30:08Z

82.176.210.66: /* First Quote */

I think the change from "Saruman arrived alone" to "Saruman [arrived] with Radagast" touches upon the matter of [[canon|canonicity]]. There are different versions of the history of the arrival of the Istari. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 07:13, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

:I'll have to research the matter more so I can refresh my memory. Maybe it would be beneficial to mention both possibilities and their sources so as to let the reader decide? --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:28, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

Would anyone else consider it worthwhile to separate the description of Saruman's powers from his history and personality? --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:07, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

:I think that would be a great idea. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:21, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

Hi, I was reading Saruman's article and it's good but there is something I would like to ask. In the "Chief of the White Council" you have stated that Saruman HAD MADE a ring of power by using the knowledge of the noldor of former Eregion to enchant he's speaking voice. I would like to know WHERE and HOW have you came up with this knowledge because i have read a lot about middle earth and i have never found that Tolkien would have stated that Saruman had knowledge about making a ring of power or actualy made one. Also Where could he have made it? Orthanc or Isengard hadn't great forges before orcs came there and i doubt that forge any made by orc would be hot enough to make a ring of power.
Aromez

13:12

27.11.2009

:I think you raise a valid point, Aromez. Although nowhere it is stated when he made a ring (as far as I know, at least) he did once call himself "Ring-maker", in his conversation with Gandalf, prior to taking the latter hostage: "... I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

:Something I noticed myself in the paragraph "Chief of the White Council" is the following sentence: "At this council-meeting Gandalf (for the first time) revealed that he suspected that Saruman desired to possess the One Ring." I think this is not correct. I don't think Gandalf would have revealed in the presence of Saruman his suspicions.
:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 20:33, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I have found the text about Saruman saying his ringmaker but i doupt he had actualy made one. Had he made lesser ring of power he could have quickly made a new one ring, rather than waste time in findign one. When Saruman stated that he was ring maker, I think it was more of propaganda than true, afterall he was a liar and great speaker. In finnish Lord of the rings book's First words Tolkien sayid, " Had my story been allorgy to the Great War, One ring would not have been destroyd but used againts Sauron, also Saruman would have traveled to Mordor and found a way to make one ring and eventualy would have made one". (this is my own translation from finnish lord of the rings book, it may not be same from word to word in english text but quite near). So in this text Tolkien makes clearly point that Saruman Didn't make a ring of power or had any knowledge how to make one.

About Gandalf sucpicion towards Saruman is not maybe so non canon. During the last meeting Saruman had insulted Gandalf about his smoking and hobbit knowledge. So Gandalf in turn poked 9 smaller smoke rings and one bigger. Saruman thought that Gandalf knew his madnes to find the one ring and had made warning not to try to find the one ring and also hinted that he had some knowledge were the one ring was. This was all Sarumans own sucpicion but i think that Gandalf indeed made warning to Saruman but not openly and didnt realy thougth that Saruman had betrayed them. i found ths knowledge from the book of Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. Aromez

01:47

29.11.2009

:Although this is certainly not a discussion board, I'd like togo on a bit further in this discussion nevertheless. The original text of the Foreword you retranslated from Finnish runs like this:
::''The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.''
:I read it as saying that in case someone had tried to use the One Ring, that person would become enslaved by it, while Saruman would make use of the ensuing chaos to get the last pieces of information he needed to make a Great Ring for himself. However, this does not mean that he did not have the ability to create a lesser Ring, nor does it mean that he did not make one.

:With regard to Gandalf warning Saruman: the stories from The Unfinished Tales contradict a bit with what we know from The Lord of the Rings. In the chapter The Council of Elrond Gandalf tells that he did not have real suspicions against Saruman before entering Isengard, otherwise he would not have heeded Saruman's invitation. The 'warning' with the smoke rings (the story doesn't say it were nine small smoke rings, btw) during the meeting of the White Council (not the last meeting, but one earlier) can in this light be seen as a warning against the power of the One Ring and against too deep a study of Ring Lore.

:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 09:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Then only one question remains. Why Tolkien never gave us more information about Sarmun's supoused ring? The only information we have is Saruman's own "word's" as a ringmaker. And that he afer Sauron himself knew more than anyone else about the rings of power. So i give up, it's possible that Saruman had made a lesser ring of power but we never can be sure about it. But still just possible not cannon. Also i think that Saruman wouldn't have made a lesser ring of power just to enchant his speaking voice. He was pouwerfull and skillful speaker even after Gandalf stripped of Saruman's power. The ring would have maybe enchated his other wizard powers. By the way Earendylion the text you used is completely same what i used, i'm not just so good translator and dont have english lord of the rings =)

:~ [[User:Aromez|Aromez]] 11:20, 30 November 2009

== First Quote ==

I reckon we need to change the opening quote of Treebeard. I think we need one that shows how powerful it is and I do not think the current one does him justice. What do you guys think.

:The opening quote is of course about Saruman as we know him best, but doesn't tell the whole story. If you want another (better) quote, you can change the present one. What about the following?
::''[Saruman] is great among the Wise. He is the chief of my order and the head of the Council. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling. The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making (....)'' - Gandalf
:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 09:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

== Saruman's Ring ==

Saruman had made a Ring, he called himself a Ring-Maker and he weared a Ring at Orthanc when Gandalf meeted him.

''“‘Hij [Saruman] droeg een '''Ring''' aan zijn vinger.’”''

I've only the Dutch quote but in English it is:

''He [Saruman] weared a '''Ring''' at his finger''--[[Special:Contributions/82.176.210.66|82.176.210.66]] 16:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Mîm

2009-11-30T15:05:24Z

82.176.210.66: New page: ''In First Age 499, Húrin Thalion, who had seen all that had happened to Túrin with Morgoth's eyes, came across Mîm in Nargothrond, and killed him, deeming him partially responsible for...

''In First Age 499, Húrin Thalion, who had seen all that had happened to Túrin with Morgoth's eyes, came across Mîm in Nargothrond, and killed him, deeming him partially responsible for Túrin's fate. With his dying words Mîm cursed the treasure. Húrin's band brought the treasure of Nargothrond to Doriath, where eventually the gold was a reason for the Sack of Doriath and the death of Thingol.''

This is from TBLOTII, isn't it? Or comes it also in one of the latter versions of the Sil. I can't remember I ever readed this in the Sil,--[[Special:Contributions/82.176.210.66|82.176.210.66]] 15:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Írimë

2009-11-21T18:28:44Z

82.176.210.66:

''"Irimë may have been the mother of Aranwë, who was in turn the father of Voronwë."''
From what source is this conclusion taken? I need this information for a work about Írime, and I cannot find any information about a link between her and Aranwe. --[[User:Beren_fox|Beren_fox]] 19:55, 30 January 2007 (EST)

:I think it just comes from that [[Voronwë]] was a priveliged elf whose deeds ultimately resulted in the return of [[Fingolfin]]'s remaining descendants. Other propositions for Irimë's descendants are one or more of the chiefs of the [[Twelve Houses of the Gondothlim]], due to their rank. Especially [[Galdor of the Tree]], [[Glorfindel of the Golden Flower]], and [[Ecthelion of the Fountain]], because they were described as the noblest elves of [[Gondolin]] next to [[Turgon (Gondolin)|Turgon]]. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 17:43, 30 January 2007 (EST)

::It's still too speculative for an encyclopedia article. There's no need for it to be there. —[[User:Tar-Telperien|Tar-Telperien]] 20:38, 30 January 2007 (EST)

:::I didn't add it - I was just guessing the reason. Hyarion copied it from the Wikipedia article, and looking at its history this theory came from there. It's still in the Wikipedia article today. This article is almost unchanged since the move: notice especially how it refers to both Irimë and [[Findis]], as the Wikipedia article combines the two. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 20:52, 30 January 2007 (EST)

::::Thanks a lot for the answers! I thought I missed something important :) --[[User:Beren_fox|Beren_fox]] 18:07, 31 January 2007 (EST)

:::::Aranwë was of the House of Fingolfin. Fingon and Argon hadn't wifes. Turgon had only one child. Aredhel had only one child, Maeglin. Findis' childeren stayd in Aman. Finrod had no child. Aegnor had no wife. Galadriel had only one child. There were only three royal Ñoldor who went in excile (Idril, Celebrimbor and Orodreth). Eldálotë went not in excile, Aranwë was not Angrod's son. The only possible options are then Irimë and Orodreth. ''Amroth of Arnor'' A.K.A. ''Thijs95''

==Findis and Irimë==

Should we rename this article ( "Findis and Irimë"/smth else) or should we separate its content and move a part of it to [[Findis]] ? ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 16:43, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

:Separate. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 16:49, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

::I'm with Ederchil, separate. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:50, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

::: Alright, will do tomorrow. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 17:06, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Forums:Elf Family Trees

2009-11-21T15:50:58Z

82.176.210.66:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



I'm confused about something. I note that Tolkien Gateway indicates that Gil-galad was the son of Orodreth and Orodreth in turn was the son Angrod. But in the family trees in the back of my copy of The Silmarillion (2nd Ed. published by Houghton Mifflin in 2001), Orodreth is shown as the son of Finarfin and Earwen and, as such a brother of Angrod, Galadriel, etc (II The Descendants of Olwe and Elwe). Meanwhile, Gil-galad is show as the son of Fingon ( I The House of Finwe and the Noldorin descent of Elrond and Elros). Is there any reason behind the inconsistency?[[User:Nolaquen|Nolaquen]] 21:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

:We follow the "later Silmarillion". Christopher Tolkien admitted the parentage of Gil-galad was rushed and incorrect in the published Silmarillion, and so it was more or less retconned into what we have here. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
::Also, see [[canon]] for an explanation of how Tolkien Gateway treats various "levels" of canon. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your help![[User:Nolaquen|Nolaquen]]

:::What adds to the confusion is that we aren't exactly consistent. For instance the [[High King of the Noldor]] lemma still follows the "published Silmarillion"-verse. -- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 12:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
::::That lemma says nothing about Gil-galad being Fingon's son. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 15:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::Better read again and analyse: under "5. Turgon" it says:
::::::''After his death, the Kingship passed back to Fingon's line, to his only son.''
::::::The "only son" clearly refers to Gil-galad. -- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 19:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::This is the wrong place. But did somebody ever noticed that in the Silmarillion Fingon sended his youngest son (Gil-Galad) too the Falas. This means Gil-Galad had in the Silmarillion-verse a brother (I saw this in a essay of a friend of my). Possible this was Aranwë. He most then been killed and his son, Voronwë, couldn't get the kingship because he was part-Sindar. Another option is that Aranwë was a (grand)son of Argon. But both options are impossible because this stood in the Shibbolet:

:::::''Findekano [Fingon] had no wife or child; neither had Arakano [Argon].''

:::::Gil-Galad's older brother is dissapeared. Gil-Galad had come to be the son of Finrod and brother of '''Gil'''dor Inglorion. Latter he became the son of Orodreth. ''Amroth of Arnor'' A.K.A. ''Thijs95''
::::::Indeed this is the wrong place. The forum is for discussing what should be done to the Tolkien Gateway (and for answering questions about it), not for idle speculation about Middle-earth. But ...
::::::In The Silmarillion it is said of Fingon "but his young son Ereinion (who was after named Gil-galad) he sent to the Havens". Not "youngest". Note also that, in the external history of the Legendarium, first Gil-galad was the son of Finrod, ''then'' he became Fingon's son, before finally becoming son of Orodreth. So all of this (from your friend's essay, I assume) falls flat.
::::::However, in an earlier versions of the Legendarium (in ''The Shaping of Middle-earth'' and ''The Lost Road'') Fingon had one son and Orodreth two (none of them named Gil-galad, but that name had then not yet arisen and was an ''epessë'' anyway). -- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 19:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Sory that i posted it on the wrong place. Where has I to post it then.
:::::::My friend didn't made the fault, it was the fault of the Translater:

::::::::'' maar zijn jongste (=youngest, young = jong) zoon (=son) Ereinion (die naderhand Gil-galad werd genoemd) stuurde hij naar de Havens.” ''

:::::::In English this is:

:::::::: ''But his youngest son Ereinion (who latter was named Gil-Galad) he sended to the havens.''

:::::::The Translater made more fault. In LOTR are Sauron, The Mouth of Sauron, The Witch-King all caled tovenaars (=wizards). But in UT there stays that there were only five wizards. This is because Sorcerer and Wizard both means tovenaar, the most common translation of tovenaar is Wizard. Also there is no translation of Necromancer in Dutch, so the name of the Necromancer is Zwarte (=Black) Tovenaar or in English: The Black Wizard. Evrything after the ''')''' was from my self.

Forums:King/Queen of Elves

2009-11-20T19:02:42Z

82.176.210.66:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]


With Gil-Galad's death fighting Sauron, who inheirited his position as ruler of the Noldor, his grandnephew Elrond, or his cousin Galadriel? Elrond fought beside Gil-Galad, but Galadriel is older and is all elf.{{unsigned|Earnur}}

:You answered your own question. In "right of/to rule", the oldest goes first. (I.E. Boromir before Faramir, Isildur before Anarion, etc.) Therefore, Galadriel would rule untill she decided to pass into Aman, then her House or Elrond's (Elrohir or Elladan).[[User:Breragor|A good day to me, is waking up in Middle Earth!]] 23:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

:The High-kingship would have passed to Eärendil, but, since Eärendil was
in Valinor, the High-kingship would pass to Elrond. Also, Breragor, can a female even be High-queen? I'm not sure.

::No-one did. The kingship of the High King of all Noldor was abandoned. The only elven King still in existence at the end of the Third Age was [[Thranduil]]. On the matter of who had the rightful claim, see [[High King of the Noldor]]. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 13:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

:Theoretically speakig, who would it be? Elrond is a half-elf and the closer relative, but Galadriel is full elf and it appears she was skiped for kingship before.
::Turgon's descendants were passed up already when the crown went to Gil-galad (great-grandson of Finarfin). I would guess this is either because they were only half-elves, or because Turgon's only child was Idril (a woman). If it was the later than I would think that Galadriel would not recieve the Kingship. I can't think of a female Elven-king.

::Sad as it is, I would say that there was no heir left after Gil-galad, and that was probably why no one succeeded him. [[User:Eldorion|Eldorion]]

:::There are a few possible Elves. When Tolkien writed LOTR Gildor was the son of Finrod. Gil-Galad had a older brother, but he must have died in one of the great battles. But these things were latter changed by tolkien ''Amroth of Arnor'' A.K.A. ''Thijs95''

Forums:Ironfoot history

2009-11-20T18:57:33Z

82.176.210.66:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



I've started playing LoTRO. I've made a dwarf and I'm gonna try to make a family history about him. I want his surname to be Ironfoot and related to Dáin II Ironfoot. But my knowledge of ME is limited and I'm wondering if there is any kind soul out there willing to help me build a trustworthy family three.

First I'm unsure about how many generations there are between when Ironfoot lived and when LoTRO takes place.

Secondly, is he known to have had any children? If there are any site where you can read more about him I whould be very glad to see it.

I want to build a family three where Dáin is the family father and continue from there.

I appriciate all help I can get!

Thanks

:Hi

:I think there wera around 3 Dwarven-generations. [[Dáin Ironfoot|Dain]] was born in 2769 and died in March 3019, SoA is in 3018 and MoM is in Januari 3019

:Dáin had at least one child, [[Thorin III]] Stonehelm. After Dáin was killed (he was then in 350's) before the Gates of Erebor in the Battle of Dale when he protected his friend's body Brand, King of Dale and Grandson of Bard the Bowman. After the southeren armies of Mordor loosed teh battle of MT the morale of the Easterling-Army that sieged Erebor went down. And the following day Thorin III and Bard II, son of King Brand, atacked the army. They did win but many Dwarves died. A descendant of Dáin, he was named Durin VII did colinizize Moria again till his people was wiped out. ''Amroth of Arnor'' A.K.A. ''Thijs95''

Forums:Elf Family Trees

2009-11-20T17:35:18Z

82.176.210.66:

Baran

2009-11-14T16:08:46Z

82.176.210.66:

'''Baran''' (born [[First Age]] 402) is [[Sindarin]] for 'Golden Brown' and was the elder son of [[Bëor the Old]] and brother to [[Belen]]. Sometime between First Age 415 and 420 he took over leadership of the [[House of Bëor]] when his father left to serve as vassal to [[Finrod Felagund]].

During his rule the [[Haladin]], the [[House of Marach|people of Marach]], and the [[Easterlings]] crossed over the [[Blue Mountains]] into [[Beleriand]].

== Genealogy ==
<code>

[[Bëor the Old]]
|
________|________
| |
| |
'''BARAN''' [[Belen]]
| |
____|_____ |
| | |
| | |
[[Boron]] [[Baranor son of Baran|Baranor]] [[Beldir]]
| | |
| | |
[[Boromir of Ladros|Boromir]] [[Bereg]] [[Belemir]]

</code>

{{sequence
|prev=[[Bëor the Old]]
|next=[[Boron]]
|list=2nd Head of the [[House of Bëor]]<br><code>I</code> c. 420 – ???
}}
==Etymology==
In [[Sindarin]], ''baran'' is glossed to mean "brown, swart, dark brown, golden brown, yellow brown". It probably derives from [[Old Sindarin]] *''barana'' from [[root]] [[BARÁN]].
==Examples==
*''[[Berennyn]]''
[[Category:Edain]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]
[[Category:Sindarin adjectives]]
[[category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Baran]]
[[fi:Baran]]

Baran

2009-11-14T16:08:22Z

82.176.210.66: Heal the Error of the Genealogy

'''Baran''' (born [[First Age]] 402) is [[Sindarin]] for 'Golden Brown' and was the elder son of [[Bëor the Old]] and brother to [[Belen]]. Sometime between First Age 415 and 420 he took over leadership of the [[House of Bëor]] when his father left to serve as vassal to [[Finrod Felagund]].

During his rule the [[Haladin]], the [[House of Marach|people of Marach]], and the [[Easterlings]] crossed over the [[Blue Mountains]] into [[Beleriand]].

== Genealogy ==
<code>

[[Bëor the Old]]
|
________|________
| |
| |
'''BARAN''' [[Belen]]
| |
____|_____ |
| | |
| | |
[[Boron]] [[Baranor son of Baran|Baranor]] [[Beldir]]
| | |
| | |
[[Boromir of Ladros|Boromir]] [[Bereg]] [[Belemir]]

</code>
{{sequence
|prev=[[Bëor the Old]]
|next=[[Boron]]
|list=2nd Head of the [[House of Bëor]]<br><code>I</code> c. 420 – ???
}}
==Etymology==
In [[Sindarin]], ''baran'' is glossed to mean "brown, swart, dark brown, golden brown, yellow brown". It probably derives from [[Old Sindarin]] *''barana'' from [[root]] [[BARÁN]].
==Examples==
*''[[Berennyn]]''
[[Category:Edain]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]
[[Category:Sindarin adjectives]]
[[category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Baran]]
[[fi:Baran]]

Baran

2009-11-14T16:07:37Z

82.176.210.66:

'''Baran''' (born [[First Age]] 402) is [[Sindarin]] for 'Golden Brown' and was the elder son of [[Bëor the Old]] and brother to [[Belen]]. Sometime between First Age 415 and 420 he took over leadership of the [[House of Bëor]] when his father left to serve as vassal to [[Finrod Felagund]].

During his rule the [[Haladin]], the [[House of Marach|people of Marach]], and the [[Easterlings]] crossed over the [[Blue Mountains]] into [[Beleriand]].

== Genealogy ==
<code>
[[Bëor the Old]]
|
________|________
| |
| |
'''BARAN''' [[Belen]]
| |
____|_____ |
| | |
| | |
[[Boron]] [[Baranor son of Baran|Baranor]] [[Beldir]]
| | |
| | |
[[Boromir of Ladros|Boromir]] [[Bereg]] [[Belemir]]
</code>
{{sequence
|prev=[[Bëor the Old]]
|next=[[Boron]]
|list=2nd Head of the [[House of Bëor]]<br><code>I</code> c. 420 – ???
}}
==Etymology==
In [[Sindarin]], ''baran'' is glossed to mean "brown, swart, dark brown, golden brown, yellow brown". It probably derives from [[Old Sindarin]] *''barana'' from [[root]] [[BARÁN]].
==Examples==
*''[[Berennyn]]''
[[Category:Edain]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]
[[Category:Sindarin adjectives]]
[[category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Baran]]
[[fi:Baran]]

Isildur

2009-11-11T17:02:13Z

82.176.210.66: /* Portrayal in Adaptations */

{{numenorean
| image=[[Image:Isildur.jpg|250px]]
| name=Isildur
| othernames=
| birth=[[Second Age 3209|S.A. 3209]]
| rule=[[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] until death (2 years)
| death=October 4, [[Third Age 2|T.A. 2]]
| age=234 years
| party=The [[Faithful]]
| language=[[Quenya]]
| gender=Male
| height=Nigh 7 feet
| hair=Black
| eyes=Grey
| parentage=[[Elendil]]
| siblings=[[Anárion]]
| spouse=
| children=[[Elendur, son of Isildur|Elendur]], [[Aratan]], [[Ciryon]], [[Valandil of Arnor|Valandil]]
|}}
'''Isildur''' was a [[Dúnedain|Dúnadan]] of [[Númenor]], the elder son of [[Elendil]], [[High King]] of the [[Realms in Exile]]. He was briefly the second king of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]]. His name means "Devoted to the [[Moon]]".

== History ==
Isildur was born in Númenor, the eldest son of Elendil son of [[Amandil of Andúnië|Amandil]], the last [[Lord of Andúnië]]. His younger brother was [[Anárion son of Elendil|Anárion]]. Isildur had four sons, [[Elendur]], [[Aratan]], [[Ciryon]], and [[Valandil of Arnor|Valandil]], though his wife was never named.

In his youth, Isildur stole a fruit of [[Nimloth of Númenor|Nimloth]] before it was cut down, preserving the line of the [[White Tree]], and later planted a seedling in the city of [[Minas Anor]].

Isildur together with his father and brother were saved from the Downfall of Númenor when they fled for [[Middle-earth]]. Isildur and Anárion landed in the south and established the realm of [[Gondor]], while their father landed in the north, founding the realm of [[Arnor]].

Isildur lived on the east bank of the river [[Anduin]] and established the city of [[Minas Ithil]] (which would later be named ''Minas Morgul''), as well as the province of [[Ithilien]]. However, in 3428 [[Sauron]] captured Minas Ithil, and Isildur fled down the Anduin, then northwest to Gil-galad in Lindon and his father in Arnor, leaving Anárion to rule over Gondor.

He returned with his father and the [[Elves|Elven]] High King [[Gil-galad]] in the [[Last Alliance of Elves and Men]] in 3434 with their combined armies. His father and Gil-galad threw down Sauron, winning the battle, though both were slain. Isildur took the hilt shard of his father's sword [[Narsil]], which had broken beneath Elendil in the combat with Sauron, and used it to cut the [[One Ring]] from Sauron's finger.

Ignoring the advice of [[Elrond]] and [[Círdan]], lieutenant of Gil-galad, he did not destroy the Ring, instead claiming it as an heirloom for his House.

After the fall of Sauron, Isildur left [[Meneldil]], son of his brother [[Anárion]], in charge of Gondor, and returned north to [[Arnor]] with his three sons. His fourth son [[Valandil of Arnor|Valandil]] had stayed behind in [[Rivendell]]. At the [[Gladden Fields]], Isildur was ambushed by roaming [[Orcs]], and due to the Ring's treachery he was killed, losing the Ring in the river [[Anduin]].

He was the last king to rule both Gondor and Arnor until [[Aragorn|King Elessar]] reunited the Kingdom at the end of the [[Third Age]].

In the riddling rhyme "Seek for the Sword that was Broken" the Ring is referred to cryptically as ''Isildur's [[Bane]]''.

== Portrayal in Adaptations ==
[[Image:Peter Jackson's Isildur1.jpg|thumb|[[Harry Sinclair]] as Isildur in [[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring]]]]
'''2001-2002:[[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]"'''
:In [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]] films, Isildur briefly appears in the first scenes of [[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|the first film]], and in an extended flashback scene in [[Peter Jackson's The Two Towers|the second]]. Isildur is played by [[Harry Sinclair]]. Sinclair, a friend of [[Peter Jackson]], was asked because he was the most corrupt looking person Jackson knew. Sinclair had only one line, "No!", which was dubbed by [[Hugo Weaving]].

:In the movie, Isildur apparently is the last king of Gondor; Anárion and heirs and Arnor do not appear at all. However, in the Extended Editions both Arnor and the House of Anárion are mentioned, and at times it is clear that Isildur was not the last King, so this might be dialogue error. The story of Isildur's succumbing to the temptation of the Ring bothers Aragorn who fears that he could have the same weakness (a fear that is not evident in the book).

'''2002:[[The Two Towers|The Two Towers Videogame]]'''

:In the game starts with a prolouge, where you have to play with Isildur beneath Mount Doom. After you complete the mission you see how Isildur defeats Sauron.

'''2006: EA's [[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''':
:Isildur appears only in cinematics battling [[Sauron]] . However, in the expansion of the game, Isildur is mentioned more detailed in the [[Angmar]] campaign.

== Genealogy ==
<code>
[[Elendil]]
|
___________|__________
| |
| |
'''ISILDUR''' [[Anárion son of Elendil|Anárion]]
|
_____________|______________
| | | |
| | | |
[[Elendur, son of Isildur|Elendur]] [[Aratan]] [[Ciryon]] [[Valandil of Arnor|Valandil]]
|
|
[[Eldacar of Arnor|Eldacar]]
</code>

== Titles ==
{{sequence
|prev=[[Elendil]]
|next=[[Valandil of Arnor|Valandil]]
|list=2nd [[King of Arnor]]<br><code>II</code> 3441 – <code>III</code> 2
}}<br>
{{sequence
|prev=[[Elendil]]
|next=[[Meneldil]]
|list=2nd [[King of Gondor]]<br><code>II</code> 3441 – <code>III</code> 2
}}<br>
{{sequence
|prev=[[Elendil]]
|next=[[Aragorn II]] 3,017 years later
|list=2nd [[High King]] of the [[Two Kingdoms]]<br><code>II</code> 3441 – <code>III</code> 2
}}<br>
{{sequence
|prev=[[Sauron]]
|next=[[Déagol]], c. 2461 years later
|list=[[Ring-bearer]]<br>[[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] – [[Third Age 2|T.A. 2]]}}
{{northernline}}

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Isildur|Images of Isildur]]

[[Category:Númenóreans]]
[[Category:Dúnedain]]
[[Category:Rulers of Arnor]]
[[Category:Rulers of Gondor]]
[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:Ring-bearers]]

User talk:82.176.210.66

2009-07-12T17:57:16Z

82.176.210.66:

{{{hide30|}}}=[[{{{1}}}

User talk:82.176.210.66

2009-07-12T17:56:24Z

82.176.210.66: New page: {{t|1=|1{{{hide30|}}}=30}}

{{t|1=|1{{{hide30|}}}=[[{{{1}}} 30|30]]}}