Talk:Half-elven

2018-09-22T18:03:34Z

86.8.142.167:

This article incorrectly states "the half-elven were given a choice to be counted as one of the Eldar (Elves), thus being immortal, or one of the Edain (Men), thus being mortal." Only Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, and Elrond's children were given that choice. All other Half-elven were born mortal. [[User:Michael Martinez|Michael Martinez]] 05:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

:Can anyone prove that '''all''' other half-elven people were born mortal? This whole article is a sticky subject.

:It's true, the half-elven choice did not apply to ALL half-elven people, but some must have been born Eldar, like Dior and his line. Otherwise, Dior could note have worn or used the Silmaril to restore Doriath. Earendil must have been Eldar by default because otherwise the Silmaril would have burned him. However, Mithrellas, the wood-elf companion of Nimrodel, had mortal children, and that's probably why she left her family rather than watch her husband and half-elven children grow old and wither while she remained behind. She did not have a divine bloodline nor a special doom. Her bloodline is seen later in the Third Age in Prince Imrahil.

[If Silmaril-holding is used to judge mortality or immortality, then Beren must have been immortal. As well as Luthien after her return as a mortal. I don't think it can be used that way, especially as Dior, Elwing, Earendil, all grew at the rate of a mortal rather than that of Elves] [[anon]]

:I love this topic, but it's so messy. I'm concerned that no matter what is written on this page and what is ref'd, people will disagree with it because the evidence is thin and scattered. It's dangerous to have any statements of total exclusion or sweeping inclusion on this page. Everything will need a qualifier or a terse statement with a ref and no suppositions stated as fact. I don't even know what to do with the current things placed as refs on this page, maybe notes. (revised) --[[User:Elf-esteem|Elf-esteem]] 21:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

==The old refs==
I pulled the note and these refs out:

1) ''"Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendil I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendil: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. '''Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them'''..."'' - {{LR|Quenta}}

2. Among all the [[Half-elven]] whose Elvish ancestry is documented, Eärendil is the most [[Vanyar]]in of them, being five-sixteenths Vanyarin through his five-eighths Vanyarin mother [[Idril]].

3. Lúthien was considered to be of the Eldar, not the half-elven; however, she was technically half-elven since only her father was an Elf. Her mother, [[Melian]], was one of the [[Maiar]], an angelic holy being. Though she did actually give up her mortality so her husband would be brought back to life, she was still considered one of the Eldar and never of the half-elven or Edain.

4. Eluréd and Elurín were captured by the servants of [[Celegorm]] and abandoned in the forest, thus dying before their decision as to their kindred could be made.

5. It is uncertain whether Elladan and Elrohir chose to be of the Edain or the Eldar; this information is not given in the books. However, since their choice was expressed by whether they would follow their father to [[Valinor]] at the time of his own departure, and they were described as remaining in [[Rivendell]], they are often said to have chosen the Edain.</ref>

If anyone believes they should still be there or could fit better somewhere else, there they are. --[[User:Elf-esteem|Elf-esteem]] 21:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

:This is very kind of you but slightly unnecessary: the history tab of an article shows all the previous revisions from when the article was created. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:31, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

==Overview==
Is it redundant or necessary? --[[User:Elf-esteem|Elf-esteem]] 21:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

:I think the heading is redundant but not all the content: it mostly belongs in "History" whilst some of it could be moved/copied in to the introductory paragraphs. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:33, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Timeline

2017-07-23T12:42:31Z

86.8.142.167: /* Years of the Trees */

{{Cleanup}}
==[[Years of the Lamps]]==
:''All dates in this section are approximate. Calculated Sun years for the Years of the Lamps and the Trees are rounded to the nearest year.''<ref group="Note">One [[Valian Years|Valian Year]] is equal to 9.582 Sun Years.</ref>
{| rules="all" style="border:1px solid darkgrey; border-collapse:collapse" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"
| colspan="3" style="background:gray; color:white; text-align:center" | '''Years of the Lamps'''
|-
| style="background:lightgrey; text-align:center" | '''Valian Year'''
| style="background:lightgrey; text-align:center" | '''Calculated Sun Years'''
| style="background:lightgrey; text-align:center" | '''Event'''
|-
| align="center" colspan="3" | '''''[[Music of the Ainur|Ainulindalë]]''''': The [[Valar]], [[Maiar]], and [[Morgoth|Melkor]] enter [[Eä]].
|-
| 1–1499 || 1-14,363 || The [[First War]] and the [[Arda Marred|Marring of Arda]].
|-
| 1500 || 14,373 || [[Tulkas]] enters [[Eä]] and [[Morgoth|Melkor]] flees.
|-
| '''''1900''''' || '''''18,206''''' || The completion of [[Arda]]. The [[Valar]] create the [[Two Lamps]] and settle at [[Almaren]]. '''''Beginning of the [[Spring of Arda]].'''''
|-
| 3400 || 32,579 || [[Tulkas]] weds [[Nessa]]. [[Morgoth|Melkor]] secretly returns to [[Arda]], raises the [[Iron Mountains]] and delves [[Utumno]], and partly blights the [[Spring of Arda]].
|-
| '''''3450''''' || '''''33,058''''' || [[Morgoth|Melkor]] overthrows the [[Two Lamps]] forming [[Helcar]] and [[Sea of Ringil|Ringil]]. [[Almaren]] is destroyed. In order to preserve life on the earth, [[Yavanna]] sets most living things into a [[Sleep of Yavanna|long sleep]]. '''''End of the [[Spring of Arda]].'''''
|-
| 3450–3500 || 33,058-33,537 || The [[Valar]] raise the [[Pelóri]] and settle in [[Aman]]. The [[Two Trees]] are grown in [[Valinor]].
|}

== [[Years of the Trees]] ==

{| rules="all" style="border:1px solid darkgrey; border-collapse:collapse" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"
| colspan="3" style="background:gray; color:white; text-align:center" | '''Years of the Trees'''
|-
| style="background:lightgrey; text-align:center" | '''Valian Year'''
| style="background:lightgrey; text-align:center" | '''Calculated Sun Years'''
| style="background:lightgrey; text-align:center" | '''Event'''
|-
| Pre-[[Year of the Trees 1000|1000]] || Pre-9582 || [[Morgoth|Melkor]] sleeps in [[Utumno]]. [[Oromë]] hunts throughout [[Middle-earth]]. Melkor raises the [[Misty Mountains|Hithaeglir]] to hinder his efforts.
|-
| ???? || ???? || About some time before the waking of the Elves, [[Aulë]] creates the 7 [[Fathers of the Dwarves]] and their 6 spouses. Ilúvatar adopts them and they are put to sleep.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1000|1000]] || 9582 || The [[Valar]] hold council, for [[Yavanna]] and [[Oromë]] report that Melkor might rise once more in power. They discuss the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]. [[Varda]] begins to fashion new stars, and organize them and those already wrought into [[:Category:Constellations|constellations]], over the next fifty years.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1050|1050]] || 10,061 || [[Varda]] forms the [[Valacirca]]. The first 144 [[Elves]] ([[Minyar]], [[Tatyar]] and [[Nelyar]]) awake in [[Cuiviénen]]. [[Melian]] travels to [[Beleriand]] after ascending [[Taniquetil]] to see the stars.
|-
|???? || ???? ||Spies of Melkor discover the Elves and afflict them. Possibly [[Orcs]] first created.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1085|1085]] || 10,396 || [[Oromë]] discovers the [[Elves]], and calls them [[Eldar]]. The Eldar are afraid of Oromë, and blame him for [[Morgoth|Melkor]]'s work.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1086|1086]] || 10,406 || [[Oromë]] returns to [[Valinor]], and witnesses to his peers about the Children of Ilúvatar. Oromë returns to the [[Elves]] while the Valar consider his message.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1090|1090]] || 10,444 || [[Valar]] make war on [[Morgoth|Melkor]] in the [[War for Sake of the Elves]]. The earth is shaken. The shores of Beleriand are formed and bays are created on the North. Over the next two years Melkor is defeated, and retreats into [[Utumno]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1092|1092]] || 10,464|| The [[Siege of Utumno]] begins. North is desolated and the Sea widened.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1099|1099]] || 10,530 || The [[Siege of Utumno]] ends, as the Valar storm the final defenses. Balrogs attack and Manwë slays them. [[Tulkas]] captures [[Morgoth|Melkor]], binding him with [[Angainor]]. [[Sauron]] evades capture.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1100|1100]] || 10,540 || [[Morgoth]] is brought back to Valinor, judged and cast into [[Mandos]]. 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1101|1101]] || 10,550 || Valar make council about the protection of Eruhíni and decide to bring them to Valinor. Oromë Invites the Elves.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1102|1102]] || 10,559 || Elves are unwilling so Oromë invites the three Elven ambassadors, [[Ingwë]], [[Finwë]] and [[Elwë]] to come to Valinor.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1104|1104]] || 10,579 || Ambassadors return to [[Cuiviénen]] and invite the Elves to return with them to Valinor
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1105|1105]] || 10,588 || First [[Sundering of the Elves]] at [[Cuiviénen]]. [[Vanyar]] under Ingwë, [[Noldor]] under Finwë and [[Teleri]] under Elwë and [[Olwë]]. [[Avari]], under [[Morwë]] and [[Nurwë]], stay in Cuiviénen. The [[Eldar]] depart, pass [[Sea of Helcar]] and turn west. Some are terrified by the smokes of war and go back.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1115|1115]] || 10,684 || Second [[Sundering of the Elves]]: The host pass [[Mirkwood|Greenwood]] the Great and come to the River [[Anduin]]. Some Lindar wish to stay there. Terrified by the [[Misty Mountains|Hithaeglir]], [[Nandor|a part]] of them go south led by [[Lenwë]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1125|1125]] || 10,780 || [[Vanyar]] and [[Noldor]] enter [[Beleriand]]; the foremost of them pass [[Sirion]] and reach the shores. Oromë goes to Aman for counsel.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1128|1128]] || 10,808 || The unwilling Teleri also come to Beleriand and dwell east of [[Gelion]]. Elwë keeps friendship with Finwë and Noldor on the west.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1130|1130]] || 10,828 || Elwë returning from a meeting with Finwë meets Melian in [[Nan Elmoth]] and falls into a trance.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1132|1132]] || 10,847 || [[Ulmo]] brings [[Tol Eressëa|an island]] to the [[Bay of Balar]]. The Vanyar and Noldor forget their fear for the Sea and embark upon it while the Teleri look for Elwë. When departing, the island breaks and leaves the [[Isle of Balar]] behind. 
After learning of their embark, some Teleri led by Olwë, reach the shores and meet [[Ossë]] and [[Uinen]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1133|1133]] || 10,856 || [[Vanyar]] and [[Noldor]] enter [[Valinor]] and build [[Eldamar]]. The Valar open the rift [[Calacirya]] in Pelóri so that the [[Light of Valinor]] reaches Eldamar. The Elves begin the building of [[Tirion]] on the hill [[Túna]] inside Calacirya.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1140|1140]] || 10,923 || [[Vanyar]] and [[Noldor]] found [[Tirion]] and [[Mindon Eldaliéva]]. Some Vanyar yearn for the Trees and go closer to Valinor.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1142|1142]] || 10,943 || [[Galathilion|White Tree]] given to [[Noldor]] by Yavanna
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1149|1149]] || 11,010 || Finwë prays to Ulmo to bring the Teleri. However Ossë is grieved and persuades some to stay with him. [[Círdan]] with some establish the havens of [[Brithombar]] and [[Eglarest]]. [[Ossë]] teaches them shipcraft 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1150|1150]] || 11,019 ||Olwë and the [[Falmari|most part]] of the Teleri leave Beleriand. The rest of the Teleri are still looking for Elwë and are named [[Eglath]]
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1151|1151]] || 11,029 || Tol Eressëa with the Teleri stops moving outside the [[Bay of Eldamar]]. They are afterwards named Falmari who choose to remain on [[Tol Eressëa]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1152|1152]] || 11,038 || [[Elwë]] awakens from the trance and becomes King of Elves in [[Beleriand]]; his hair is now silver
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1161|1161]] || 11,125 || The Falmari after the teachings of Ossë build ships. They leave Tol Eressëa and come to Valinor.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1162|1162]] || 11,134 || [[Teleri]] found [[Alqualondë]] with the help of Finwë
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1165|1165]] || 11,163 || All the Vanyar depart from Tirion to Taniquetil and Noldor stay with the Falmari.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1169|1169]] || 11,201 || [[Fëanor]] born son of Finwë and [[Míriel]]. The Noldor are taught by Aulë labouring and love the jewels. [[Rúmil (elf of Tirion)|Rúmil of Tirion]] makes the [[Sarati]] and possibly writes the [[Ainulindalë (song)|Ainulindalë]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1170|1170]] || 11,211 || Death of [[Míriel|Míriel Serindë]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1172|1172]] || 11,230 || [[Statute of Finwë and Míriel|Doom of Manwë]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1185|1185]] || 11,355 || [[Finwë]] weds [[Indis]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1190|1190]] || 11,403 || [[Fingolfin]] born 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1200|1200]] || 11,498 || Second Age of Chaining of Melkor: [[Lúthien]] born in [[Neldoreth]]
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1230|1230]] || 11,786 || [[Finarfin]] born 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1250|1250]] || 11,978 || [[Fëanor]] creates the [[Tengwar]] [[Dwarves]] enter [[Beleriand]] and meet the [[Sindar]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1280|1280]] || 12,265 || [[Finarfin]] weds [[Eärwen]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1300|1300]] || 12,457 || Third Age of Chaining of Melkor: [[Turgon]] born, [[Finrod]] born. [[Dwarves of Belegost]] and Elves begin the building of [[Menegroth]] in [[Doriath]]. The Dwarves are paid with knowledge from Melian and with many pearls, including [[Nimphelos]]. [[Daeron]] creates the [[Cirth|Certhas Daeron]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1330|1330]] || 12,744 || [[Orcs]] first seen in [[Beleriand]]; Dwarves make weapons for the Sindar.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1350|1350]] || 12,936 || [[Denethor (Nando)|Denethor]] leads some of the [[Nandor]] into Beleriand and befriends Thingol. They settle in [[Ossiriand]]. Daeron betters the Cirth, which are adopted by the Dwarves and made known east of the [[Blue Mountains]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1362|1362]] || 13,051 || [[Galadriel]] born, [[Aredhel]] born 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1400|1400]] || 13,415 || [[Morgoth]] released from bondage 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1410|1410]] || 13,511 || [[Morgoth]] befriends the [[Noldor]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1449|1449]] || 13,884 || [[Fëanor]] having invented the substance [[Silima]] begins constructing the [[Silmarils]] 
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1450|1450]] || 13,894 || [[Fëanor]] completes the [[Silmarils]]; he puts the Light of the Trees in them and Varda hallows them. For the next 20 years Melkor begins spreading strife and talking about weapons.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1490|1490]] || 14,277 || The Valar summon Fëanor who threatens Fingolfin with his sword. They exile him to [[Formenos]] and Finwë follows.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1492|1492]] || 14,296 || Melkor visits Fëanor but he repels him. Finwë then warns the Valar and begins to pursue Melkor. Melkor hides and meets [[Ungoliant]] in [[Avathar]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1495|1495]] || 14,325 || Fëanor is commanded by Manwë to Taniquetil where he and Fingolfin reconcile. Ungoliant destroys the Two Trees, Morgoth kills Finwë in Formenos and steals the Silmarils. They flee to Beleriand where they debate. Balrogs arrive and drive Ungoliant away. Morgoth stays in [[Angband]] and raises the [[Thangorodrim]]. 
Fëanor begins the rebellion and goes to Alqualondë where he [[First Kinslaying|fights with the Falmari]] and steals their swanships. The Flight of the Noldor begins.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1496|1496]] || 14,335 || [[Mandos]] (or his messenger) appears before the Noldor and speaks the [[Doom of Mandos]]. Finarfin with some repent and return to Valinor where he is accepted. Finrod his son becomes the leader of his house and follows Fëanor
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1497|1497]] || 14,344 || [[First Battle of Beleriand]]. Death of [[Denethor (Nando)|Denethor]], besiegement of the [[Havens of the Falas]]. Thingol withdraws his people and the [[Girdle of Melian]] is set around Doriath. The Laiquendi from now on remain hidden and take no other king.

The Noldor arrive at [[Helcaraxë]], but Fëanor and his people betray Fingolfin and sail to Beleriand. Burning of the ships at [[Losgar]], where [[Amrod]] is killed. [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]] ("Battle-under-Stars"). Fëanor is mortally wounded by [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]] and is rescued by his sons before dying in sight of the [[Thangorodrim]]. [[Maedhros]] meets with Morgoth under a false truce, his forces are too few and he is captured.
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1498|1498]] || 14,354 || [[Maedhros]] is chained to the [[Thangorodrim]]. The Noldor do not depart as demanded by Morgoth and instead make a great camp at [[Mithrim]].
|-
| [[Year of the Trees 1500|1500]] || 14,373 || Creation of [[Moon]] and [[Sun]]. The host of the [[Noldor]] finishes crossing the [[Helcaraxë]] and enters [[Beleriand]] under [[Fingolfin]]. [[Battle of the Lammoth]] and death of [[Argon]]. The Moon rises and after seven times, the Sun follows.
|}

== The [[First Age]] ==
:''See: [[Timeline/First Age]]''

== The [[Second Age]] ==
:''See: [[Timeline/Second Age]]''

== The [[Third Age]] ==
:''See: [[Timeline/Third Age]]''

== The [[Fourth Age]] ==
:''See: [[Timeline/Fourth Age]]''

==See also==
* [[Timeline of Frodo Baggins]]
* [[Timeline of Aragorn]]

==Notes==
<references group="Note"/>

==References==
* ''[[Appendix B|The Tale of Years]]'' (''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'')
* ''[[The Annals of Aman]]'' (''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'')
* ''[[The Grey Annals]]'' (''[[The War of the Jewels]]'')
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]''
* ''[[Unfinished Tales|Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth]]''

[[Category:Timelines]]

Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Talk:Half-elven

Timeline