Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Talk:Saruman

2009-11-30T09:25:48Z

Aromez:

I think the change from "Saruman arrived alone" to "Saruman [arrived] with Radagast" touches upon the matter of [[canon|canonicity]]. There are different versions of the history of the arrival of the Istari. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 07:13, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

:I'll have to research the matter more so I can refresh my memory. Maybe it would be beneficial to mention both possibilities and their sources so as to let the reader decide? --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:28, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

Would anyone else consider it worthwhile to separate the description of Saruman's powers from his history and personality? --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:07, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

:I think that would be a great idea. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:21, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

Hi, I was reading Saruman's article and it's good but there is something I would like to ask. In the "Chief of the White Council" you have stated that Saruman HAD MADE a ring of power by using the knowledge of the noldor of former Eregion to enchant he's speaking voice. I would like to know WHERE and HOW have you came up with this knowledge because i have read a lot about middle earth and i have never found that Tolkien would have stated that Saruman had knowledge about making a ring of power or actualy made one. Also Where could he have made it? Orthanc or Isengard hadn't great forges before orcs came there and i doubt that forge any made by orc would be hot enough to make a ring of power.
Aromez

13:12

27.11.2009

:I think you raise a valid point, Aromez. Although nowhere it is stated when he made a ring (as far as I know, at least) he did once call himself "Ring-maker", in his conversation with Gandalf, prior to taking the latter hostage: "... I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

:Something I noticed myself in the paragraph "Chief of the White Council" is the following sentence: "At this council-meeting Gandalf (for the first time) revealed that he suspected that Saruman desired to possess the One Ring." I think this is not correct. I don't think Gandalf would have revealed in the presence of Saruman his suspicions.
:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 20:33, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I have found the text about Saruman saying his ringmaker but i doupt he had actualy made one. Had he made lesser ring of power he could have quickly made a new one ring, rather than waste time in findign one. When Saruman stated that he was ring maker, I think it was more of propaganda than true, afterall he was a liar and great speaker. In finnish Lord of the rings book's First words Tolkien sayid, " Had my story been allorgy to the Great War, One ring would not have been destroyd but used againts Sauron, also Saruman would have traveled to Mordor and found a way to make one ring and eventualy would have made one". (this is my own translation from finnish lord of the rings book, it may not be same from word to word in english text but quite near). So in this text Tolkien makes clearly point that Saruman Didn't make a ring of power or had any knowledge how to make one.

About Gandalf sucpicion towards Saruman is not maybe so non canon. During the last meeting Saruman had insulted Gandalf about his smoking and hobbit knowledge. So Gandalf in turn poked 9 smaller smoke rings and one bigger. Saruman thought that Gandalf knew his madnes to find the one ring and had made warning not to try to find the one ring and also hinted that he had some knowledge were the one ring was. This was all Sarumans own sucpicion but i think that Gandalf indeed made warning to Saruman but not openly and didnt realy thougth that Saruman had betrayed them. i found ths knowledge from the book of Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. Aromez

01:47

29.11.2009

:Although this is certainly not a discussion board, I'd like togo on a bit further in this discussion nevertheless. The original text of the Foreword you retranslated from Finnish runs like this:
::''The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.''
:I read it as saying that in case someone had tried to use the One Ring, that person would become enslaved by it, while Saruman would make use of the ensuing chaos to get the last pieces of information he needed to make a Great Ring for himself. However, this does not mean that he did not have the ability to create a lesser Ring, nor does it mean that he did not make one.

:With regard to Gandalf warning Saruman: the stories from The Unfinished Tales contradict a bit with what we know from The Lord of the Rings. In the chapter The Council of Elrond Gandalf tells that he did not have real suspicions against Saruman before entering Isengard, otherwise he would not have heeded Saruman's invitation. The 'warning' with the smoke rings (the story doesn't say it were nine small smoke rings, btw) during the meeting of the White Council (not the last meeting, but one earlier) can in this light be seen as a warning against the power of the One Ring and against too deep a study of Ring Lore.

:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 09:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Then only one question remains. Why Tolkien never gave us more information about Sarmun's supoused ring? The only information we have is Saruman's own "word's" as a ringmaker. And that he afer Sauron himself knew more than anyone else about the rings of power. So i give up, it's possible that Saruman had made a lesser ring of power but we never can be sure about it. But still just possible not cannon. Also i think that Saruman wouldn't have made a lesser ring of power just to enchant his speaking voice. He was pouwerfull and skillful speaker even after Gandalf stripped of Saruman's power. The ring would have maybe enchated his other wizard powers. By the way Earendylion the text you used is completely same what i used, i'm not just so good translator and dont have english lord of the rings =)

:~ [[User:Aromez|Aromez]] 11:20, 30 November 2009

== First Quote ==

I reckon we need to change the opening quote of Treebeard. I think we need one that shows how powerful it is and I do not think the current one does him justice. What do you guys think.

:The opening quote is of course about Saruman as we know him best, but doesn't tell the whole story. If you want another (better) quote, you can change the present one. What about the following?
::''[Saruman] is great among the Wise. He is the chief of my order and the head of the Council. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling. The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making (....)'' - Gandalf
:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 09:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Saruman

2009-11-28T23:48:50Z

Aromez:

Talk:Saruman

2009-11-28T13:45:19Z

Aromez:

User talk:Hyarion

2009-11-27T11:14:27Z

Aromez: /* Saruman's ring */

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* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 1|2005]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 2|2006]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 3|2007]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 4|2008]]     
|}
{{usertalk}}

== General disclaimer ==

Hiya. I was working on uploading the FotR-pics when I suddenly thought, don't we need a general disclaimer to put underneath images? "The name(s) <nowiki>{{1}}, {{2}} and {{3}}</nowiki> and the description of their appearance are based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, and the copyright to these names and descriptions is owned by [[Tolkien Enterprises]]. TG does neither have nor claim ownership blah blah blah...", you know the works. Since our current fair-use policy could use some work (display on userpages, for example, is not fair use). -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

:Agreed, although I think underneath the images should state fair use, while our Disclaimer link at the bottom of all pages should mention the general copyright message. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 04:57, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

::That link in the bottom leads to a page that does not exist yet, [[Tolkien Gateway:General disclaimer]]. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

== Me again - image galleries ==

Don't know when the next meeting will be, so I thought I'd post it here before I forget it. In the case of some categories - [[:Category:Images of Gothmog]] most notoriously - there's still some problem over disambiguation. Maybe all image categories should be renamed with the full pagename of the subject? Thus, [[:Category:Images of Boromir (Son of Denethor II)]] and such, rather than "Images of Boromir" - it is also handy when we would have a special box pointing to images - such as Wikipedia's interlinking with Wiktionary and Wikiquote, or Wookieepedia with quotes and images. I already did on of those for artist's galleries, [[:Template:Viewgal]]. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

:Sorry for the late response, I've been meaning to reply for some time; school/work has gotten the best of me lately, but not for long! I fully agree regarding the full page name for Image categories. The Images box is a great idea, I don't know why I hadn't done that already, it'll help the articles look a little nicer as well. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 04:57, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

== UsercrEation ==
I'm looking at the User Creation log at the moment. Do we have some sort of bot operating? All those twelve lettered users are just too many to be a coincidence. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 09:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

:Yup. Gonna block them all infinitely. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 15:45, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

==Ithilien + search==
Now that I'm on your talk anyway, any chance of the glitch in the search system of Ithilien (top links don't work) being fixed soon? I very much feel like switching back to cavendish. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

:Too late for soon; but I did manage to fix it. The search box has also moved temporarily to the top right. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 23:52, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== The Hobbit ==
I really hope to see this on the big screen i have waited now for so many years. Your fathers works are beyond compare and and everyone should be able to enjoy his works through reading and through Television and films ... i`d like my children to grow up reading his works as i have . Thanks {{unsigned|Tom}}

:Uhm... Hyar, I didn't know you looked like CT? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:20, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

==Multiple usernames==
Now that we can see the user creation log, it's also visible to see people who make multiple accounts. What do we do with those?

And on another note, isn't it time to archive 2008? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

:I suppose we should have some formal policy on multiple accounts. I should be able to change someone's username if they wish to change their name, so there really isn't much reason for someone to create two. I'd imagine the main perpetrators are bots in which case we can just ban their IP address if they do it continuously. As long as the user isn't switching back and forth between the accounts or creating them excessively there's probably not much harm.

:I think I was contemplating which year to archive the discussions which spanned multiple years. I went ahead and made a decision, although now I kind of miss my lengthy talk page.

:Thank you for stepping up these last few months. Two jobs and school don't mix well with the wiki, but my life should be down to no school and one job shortly so I'll be able to get back into the swing of things. Keep up the great work! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

== Arda.jpg ==

[[Image:Arda.jpg|200px]]

Could you please tell me where (in which book) can I find the original map?
--[[Special:Contributions/201.253.244.46|201.253.244.46]] 19:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC) Buenos Aires, Argentina.

:It's a fanon map. Not correct legendarium-wise. I favour deletion, even. But where did it come from? It's been circling the net for some time, I don't think it came from a book. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

::Ohh ok, thanks very much

:::To me, it looks like it has been created by a fan, based on the maps by Karen Wynn Fonstad's [[The Atlas of Middle-earth]].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:20, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

==Meetings==
Dear, Hyarion,

i was looking at the website and i noticed that there are meedings held on this sight. the last meeding was novemember 26th of 2008 and it was cancled and on that page it did not come up and say when the next meeding is going to happen. also i have another question when you want to enter another articail in the forums how do you do that? and is the chat area down is it being worked on. best of luck in life.{{unsigned|Elfhorse}}

==Backups==
This one comes partly from last night's outage, and partly from what happened to the [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page TFWiki] recently (a crash and a major - one year - loss of work): If TG would crash, what's the situation on the backups? Would we have to search for Google caches, or is there some backup system? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

:Right now the database is backed up weekly and we save a couple months worth of backups but I'm planning on doing nightly remote dumps, as even a week is a lot of lost work. The server hasn't been as reliable as it used to, I think we'll be migrating to a new host within the next year or two so we can improve uptime. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

== Next Meeting ==

It is planned that we hold our next meeting on the [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 April 2009|5th of April 2009]], please inform us if you can attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 April 2009|here]].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

=="Retrieved From"==
Anyway we can get rid of that line that suddenly appeared everywhere? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

:Never mind, it's gone. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

==Next Meeting==

Sorry to clutter up your talk page, but just informing you about the next meeting. It is planned that we hold our next meeting on '''Monday''' the [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/13 April 2009|13th of April 2009]], please inform us if you can attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/13 April 2009|here]]. Remember that it's on Easter Monday, not Easter Sunday. Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

:Unfortunately I'll be at work but I'll try my best to check in. Keep up the great work! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

== RE:Welcome ==

Thanks you, Hyarion. I want to make a question before returning to editing: How can I get rollback rights (if there are any)? I am already a rollbacker in another wiki, Halopedia (www.halo.wikia.com), and I would like to know how can I obtain these rights here. Thanks for your time,

<tt>[[User:Odysseas-spartan-53|Odysseas]]-[[User talk:Odysseas-spartan-53|Spartan]][[Special:Contributions/Odysseas-spartan-53|53]]</tt> 11:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

:Hi Odysseas, sorry for the delay; right now we aren't distibuting roll back rights, but keep up the great work and we'll get them to you eventually. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 03:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

== FA ==

See [[Forum:Featured article icon]].

Can we get [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ImageMap Extension: ImageMap] or something like it? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

:Yea, looks easy enough to install. I should have it done this weekend. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

== Merge ==

So what happened with the disscussions about the merging of the One Wiki to Rule Them All and Tolkien Gateway? Did it not work, or was there some issue? Was it forgotton? ~[http://lotr.wikia.com/User:Arvan_Swordwielder Arvan Swordwielder]

Hi Arvan, most of the editors migrated here but Wikia wished to keep their version online. If I can help with anything else just let me know. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 04:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

== Thumbnails ==

Hi. Can you please check out [[Historical Atlas]] and tell me what is wrong with thumbnail generation? It could evolve into a great article. Thanks [[User:Sage|Sage]] 11:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

:As far as I can tell, it's images in general that's to blame here. There's something wrong with uploading since the last update. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

===Sitenotice===
Related to the above, I've tried to put up [[:MediaWiki:Sitenotice|sitenotice]] to tell editors not to upload for the time being, but apparently you haven't activated it yet. Can you, please? also for future use it could be handy. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

== Saruman's ring ==

Hi, I was reading Saruman's article and it's good but there is something I would like to ask. In the "Chief of the White Council" you have stated that Saruman HAD MADE a ring of power by using the knowledge of the noldor of former Eregion to enchant he's speaking voice. I would like to know WHERE and HOW have you came up with this knowledge because i have read a lot about middle earth and i have never found that Tolkien would have stated that Saruman had knowledge about making a ring of power or actualy made one. Also Where could he have made it? Orthanc or Isengard hadn't great forges before orcs came there and i doubt that forge any made by orc would be hot enough to make a ring of power.
Aromez

13:12

27.11.2009

User talk:Hyarion

2009-11-27T11:14:08Z

Aromez: /* Saruman's ring */

User talk:Hyarion

2009-11-27T11:13:42Z

Aromez: /* Saruman's ring */

User talk:Hyarion

2009-11-27T11:12:39Z

Aromez: /* Saruman's ring */

User talk:Aromez

2009-11-19T14:48:58Z

Aromez: Adding welcome message to new user's talk page