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Talk:Balrogs

2006-06-05T15:06:45Z

Barnikel: /* Different Image */

== Different Image ==
I don't particularly like Steve Hidook's Balrog image. I'd like to replace it with an image by Daniel Govar or John Howe. Is there a system for changing images of popular entries? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 01:05, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

[[Image:Steve Hidook - A Balrog.jpg|thumb|left|Steve Hidook]]
[[Image:Daniel Govar - Balrog.jpg|thumb|left|Daniel Govar]]
[[Image:John Howe - Balrog 04.jpg|thumb|left|John Howe]]
<br style="clear:both;"/>

:Thanks for bringing this to our attention Ebakunin as this was definitely something that would arise and we need to have a system for. At the moment because of the amount of activity on the encyclopedia one is free to edit and change out any images one likes. Sometimes a fresh image is needed. I definitely agree that especially the [[John Howe]] image would make a great replacement. In the future however I think it would be preferred to vote on changing the primary image of an article, as it truly needs to be the best representation of the article and this can cause hostility and edit wars when the choice of the image differs among editors. In short, do as you please as the encyclopedia is as much yours as it is anyone else's :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:13, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Can we please NOT have ''any'' of the three images above? Because none of them remotely represent the Balrog. The John Howe one which is the current image shows a Balrog as having horns and fangs! I can't bear to look at it. Balrogs look somewhat like MEN, people, not huge horned, tailed monsters, and none of these images do justice to the Balrog's dark aura. I'm deleting the image. If you do a Google Image search for 'Balrog', not one of the finds is even close to a real Balrog. The movie Balrog has misguided many people, and these images only serve to misguide people further. Better to have no image than a misguiding one. I myself am a pitiful artist, but if someone could draw or find a good textually correct image of a Balrog, please do post it.--[[User:Barnikel|Barnikel]] 00:20, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
::I'm leaving the movie image at the bottom, because it is clearly demarcated as a portrayal in an adaptation. The other Howe images were posted like they were authoritative Balrog images, in the middle of an argument about wings.--[[User:Barnikel|Barnikel]] 00:28, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

:::I agree with Barnikel that the image from [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]] should be kept for the sake of all the movie-fans. While we also need to make sure the images at least remotely resemble a Balrog, I also think its important to at least display ''some'' images even though they may not be accurate, otherwise all our articles would be imageless save the ones drawn by [[J.R.R Tolkien]] himself. Maybe if we list what is inaccurate about the image when displayed. That being said I'm fine with leaving the above images off of the article for now until we can find some more appropriate ones. Thanks for your input! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:18, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

::::Unfortunately Hyarion is right. I have yet to see an artist draw a balrog with no wings (debatable - wouldn't reject their image for that), about twice the height of a man (see Lost Tales 2), and the rest. John Howe's do look more beast-like than man-like. I have heard, however, than an image by Rob Alexander came close, though I can't confirm that. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 07:53, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
::: Hyarion, I am not saying that all articles be imageless. There are many cases where even, shudder, movie images won't do much harm (although here artist images would be better). Like, Gandalf, for example. But the Balrog is a special case. In the absense of authoritative images, people tend to imagine Balrogs as artists have erroneously portrayed them for decades. But at a place like this, where there should be consistent and correct information about Tolkien's world, we shouldn't be posting images just to make articles look less bland, especially in cases like Balrogs or Ents. So I don't think it would be a problem not to have images for some articles like this one.--[[User:Barnikel|Barnikel]] 11:06, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

Talk:Balrogs

2006-06-05T15:06:12Z

Barnikel: /* Different Image */

Talk:Balrogs

2006-06-05T04:28:32Z

Barnikel: /* Different Image */

Balrogs

2006-06-05T04:24:33Z

Barnikel:

{{Pronounce|Balrog.mp3|Ardamir}}
'''Balrogs''' ([[Sindarin]] for "Demon of Might"; the [[Quenya]] form is '''''Valarauko''''' or '''''Valarauco''''') were menacing creatures about twice the hight of a man made equally of fire and shadow and with a fiery whip of many thongs. They induced great terror in allies and foes alike and could shroud themselves in darkness and shadow. [[Gandalf]] defeated a Balrog while the Fellowship of the Ring escaped [[Moria]] in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''.

== History ==
The Balrogs were originally [[Maiar]], of the same order as [[Sauron]] and Gandalf, but they became seduced by [[Morgoth]], who corrupted them to his service in the days of his splendour before the coming of the [[Elves]]. During the [[First Age]], they were among the most feared of Morgoth's forces. When his fortress of [[Utumno]] was destroyed by the [[Valar]], many were destroyed, but some fled and lurked in the pits of [[Angband]] or escaped across the [[Blue Mountains]] to eastern [[Middle-earth]]. In the third age the Dwarves of [[Khazad-dûm]] awakened a Balrog while mining for ''[[mithril]]'' and were cast out.

The Balrogs were first encountered by the Elves during the [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]] ("Battle under the Stars") in the First Age. After the great victory of the [[Noldor]] over Morgoth's [[Orcs]], [[Fëanor]] pressed on towards Angband, but the Balrogs came against him. He was mortally wounded by [[Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs|Gothmog]], Lord of Balrogs (the only Balrog known by his name). Though his sons fought off the demons of fire, Fëanor died of his wounds soon after, and his spirit departed for the [[Halls of Mandos]].

Balrogs have been very elusive since the First Age; if Sauron had any in his service during the [[Second Age]] or the [[War of the Ring]], they were never revealed. [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] described only one Balrog after the [[War of Wrath]]: [[Durin's Bane]]. It is believed to have been the last Balrog in [[Middle-earth]] and is certainly the best known.

== Do Balrogs Have Wings? ==
Discussion has occurred as to whether the Balrogs had wings. The debate mainly comes from "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm", the fifth chapter in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''. There are two references in this chapter:

<blockquote>''"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."''</blockquote>

There is nothing special in this on its own. The Balrog carried with itself a shadow that assumed a winglike form. The next reference is what forms the debate.

<blockquote>''"...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."''</blockquote>

Readers usually make their own interpretations about this and feel it to be quite obvious. However, this can be seen in two possible ways. For some, the Balrog has a shadow that assumes a winglike form. Later, this shadow is spread from wall to wall. Others, however, think that the Balrog has actual wings that are spread from wall to wall. There is no real conclusion to the debate and it will probably continue as long as Tolkien has readers.

=== Arguments ''For'' Balrog Wings ===
The most common argument for those supporting Balrog wings is the second reference in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". The people supporting Balrog wings believe the sentence to mean that the Balrog had literal wings spreading from wall to wall. There are also other references that may be taken as evidence of Balrog wings. These usually involve discussions about references to speed of travel:
{{quote|Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils"}}

Here, the Balrogs are said to move "with winged speed". This is usually taken as a metaphor for moving very quickly, but there are people who believe this is a strong argument for Balrog wings.

=== Arguments ''Against'' Balrog Wings ===
The first reference to the Balrog is one of the main arguments against wings, as it explicitly refers to "wings of shadow" instead of physical wings. Another common argument is that Balrogs are never exactly described as flying, unless one assumes "winged speed" means flying. There are also numerous situations where a Balrog could have either saved or helped itself by flying but didn't do so.
{{quote|Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of [[Glorfindel of Gondolin|Glorfindel]] with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"}}
{{quote|I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.|''[[The Two Towers]]'', Chapter 5, "The White Rider"}}

In both the duel with Glorfindel and with Gandalf, the Balrog fell from a great height and did not use its wings. Obviously, it is possible that the wings could not be used for flying. This could be due to its size or its current physical condition (injury or exhaustion as a result of combat). However, even the size of Balrogs are a matter of dispute. Tolkien gives a few statements of the Balrog's size.
{{quote|[The Balrog] strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it.|''[[The Treason of Isengard]]'', Chapter 10, "The Mines of Moria II: The Bridge"}}

This does not appear in the published version of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', so it may or may not be taken as a proof. Also, when the Balrog engages the Fellowship, it passes through an entrance.

The entrance is sized so that "...orcs one after another leaped into the chamber." and "...clustered in the doorway." (''The Fellowship of the Ring'', Chapter 5, "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm"). Though these statements are open to interpretation, it is conjectured that Balrogs cannot be very large (clearly not as large as portrayed in [[Peter Jackson]]'s movie) to fit through such an entrance. The Balrog's size matters both because a large size would make it unlikely that its wings were functional, and also because during the confrontation with Gandalf, its wings were said to span the width of the chasm. Physical wings on such a small creature could not possibly do this, thus the belief that they are metaphorical wings of shadow.

Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company." Few would believe that Gandalf literally flew.

== Are There Any Balrogs Left in Middle-earth? ==
Yes, there is still a possibility that Balrogs are still lurking out there. After the last battle of the First Age some Balrogs escaped the [[Valar]]'s wrath and hid deep underground. ''The Silmarillion'' tells us that:

<blockquote>"The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth..."</blockquote>

== How Many Balrogs Were There? ==
In one of Tolkien's early Middle-earth writings, ''[[Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', "[[Lungothrin]], Lord of Balrogs" is mentioned. It is not, however, certain if it was another name for Gothmog, or it simply meant "a Balrog lord". According to [[Christopher Tolkien]], the latter is more probable, as the name Gothmog was mentioned in the earliest Middle-earth writings, as well as the final version of Tolkien's mythology.

The Balrogs were originally envisioned as being immense in number:
{{quote|The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170), and were slain by [[Tuor]] and the [[Gondolin|Gondothlim]] in large numbers: "thus five fell before Tuor's great axe [[Dramborleg]], three before [[Ecthelion of the Fountain|Ecthelion's]] sword, and two score were slain by the warrior's of the king's house.|''[[The Book of Lost Tales 2]]'', commentary by Christopher Tolkien on "The Fall of Gondolin"}}
{{quote|There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glomund the Father of Dragons.|''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', ''Quenta Silmarillion'', Chapter 16, §15}}

As the [[legendarium]] became more formidable and internally consistent, and the Balrogs more terrible, this number was much reduced. In the end Tolkien stated that there were probably "at most" seven Balrogs:
{{quote|In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', Section 2 (AAm*): note 50}}

It should however be noted that these texts postdate the published ''The Lord of the Rings'', but predate the materials from which the published ''The Silmarillion'' was drawn. The exact number of Balrogs is therefore very uncertain, but Tolkien's note above seems to have been his final word. However, the number of 3 would require the rewriting of much of ''The Silmarillion'', and even the number of 7 causes conflicts. At least two Balrogs were killed at Gondolin, part of a group of more. All others save one were destroyed during the [[War of Wrath]], and yet there were still enough there to allow Durin's Bane to flee from the battle unnoticed. While "thousands" clearly is not according to author intent a more probable number, taking into account the writings, is that there were at least a dozen.

== Portrayal in Adaptations ==
[[Image:Peter Jackson's Balrog.jpg|thumb|A Balrog as envisioned in [[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring]]]]
[[Peter Jackson]] choose to give [[Durin's Bane]] wings, albeit wings that were purely decorative as the Balrog could not fly. Jackson's "Demon of Might" was indistinct, a real blend of shadow and fire. Only its horned head, hooved feet, and clawed hands could clearly be seen.

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Balrogs|Images of Balrogs]]

== External Links ==
* [http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB.html The Truth About Balrogs], an essay series by Conrad Dunkerson.

[[Category:Maiar]]

Talk:Balrogs

2006-06-05T04:20:49Z

Barnikel: /* Different Image */