Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Talk:Galadriel

2022-01-18T19:06:49Z

GalFan3: /* Misrepresentation of Galadriel */ new section

Does anyone else feel the asterisk for Aragorn's being a member of the Fellowship a bit irrelevant? I'm gonna delete it, someone can revert it if I'm wrong. --[[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] 01:30, 5 January 2007 (EST)

:I also find it unneccessary. I'll go ahead and remove it (as I have several other minor edits I would like to perform on the page). --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 07:35, 5 January 2007 (EST)

== Where the death date comes from? ==

As far as I know, Galadriel is immortal. So where can you conclude her date of death? [[User:58.187.53.142|58.187.53.142]] 23:02, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

:The infobox says "Passed into the West" and the article states "aged approx. 8,370 years when she took the Straight Road to Valinor". There is no statement of death. --[[User:Fleela|fleela]] 23:12, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

::But the infobox says that :"Date of death" and "Age at death", those look like she died already, if my eyes don't betray me.

:::The infobox is a standard template used in many articles, hence the descriptive parenthetical phrase. --[[User:Fleela|fleela]] 23:58, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

::::I think we should clear out the information from infobox since it can mislead the readers about her "death". Also, there's an asynchronism here when the lead section state she's aged approx. 8,370 years when she took the Straight Road to Valinor while the infobox says "approximately 7114 years". To have it out, I favor the information of 7114 rather than the number 8370 (in wikipedia version they calculate that "500 (FA) + 3400 (SA) + 3300 (TA) = apx. 7000". Merge the infomation in infobox to lead section is my solution. [[User:58.187.51.25|58.187.51.25]] 00:09, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::Actually it's 8374. Most people forget that [[Years of the Trees]] are 9.582 [[years of the Sun]] in lenght. There are several other errors in the quoted (wikipedia) calculation. -- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 19:18, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

:::::Right now Galadriel is using a Royalty infobox, but I think we should change it to be an Elf-specific infobox. As most Elves passed on to the Undying lands and did not die, we can use that in place of death. I'll double check the dates and fix the article, thanks for your input. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:30, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::Galadriel should be using the Noldor infobox, which I'll put up after a rewrite (or someone can change it before the rewrite). Most of the Noldor Tolkien writes about ''did'' die at one point or another (almost the entire [[House of Finwë]], for instance); I'd say about 9/10. For Elves I suppose we could put Died/Passed West, but it's rather more annoying to have to explain on every article which they did (whereas here the few that survived to pass west are explained as such). On the other hand, since the elves that died in Middle-earth were usually reborn in Aman, we could probably think up a variation on "departed mortal lands", etc. Personally, I'm contented with the way it is. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 06:17, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::I believe I put down the age. That was based on the dates calculated for the ages plus a hundred or so years to make her old enough for what she did during the Exile of the Noldor. I'm not sure why I added "14". Also, I was thinking, for the Elves passing west is very much like death (only they don't. . . die. They skip the step of being disembodied and going through Mandos). With proper word choice we might be able to work out something. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 06:21, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

:::::::The [[Elrond]] article has an age for when he sailed to the West, while Galadriel (who left with the same ship) has not. Using the information in Elrond's article, in [[Fingolfin]]'s article, and [[Years of the Trees]], I calulate her age at that point in time as being 8374 years old (which others above already have calculated).
:::::::Think her age at the departure should be mentioned as it shows how old and ancient (and noble) she really is (also, why not give her the same honour as Elrond?). [[Special:Contributions/37.196.206.40|37.196.206.40]] 05:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

==Going East==
The article fails in elaborating all the differences in the story of Galadriel. When did she leave Aman, how did she leave, where did she meet Celeborn? Also it completely lacks information about Galadriel and Celeborn passing east into Eriador before the end of the FA. --[[User:Thalion|Thalion]] 14:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

== Different versions ==
Isn't the section about the different versions of the legends a bit confusing? It seems to mix several sources into one.
As far as I know, there are more or less three different versions. The one of "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" found in UT, in which they were the kings of Eregion instead of Celebrimbor, with Amroth as their son. A later one, that comes right after this one in UT, and that clearly rejects their parentage with Amroth, and says nothing about them ruling Eregion (roughly speaking, the "canon" version that appears in the main section of the article and is coherent with all the published works). And the last one, that makes Celeborn a Telerin Elf (thus contradicting LotR and The Road Goes Ever On), in which Galadriel sails from Aman separately but nothing is told about what happened to her in Middle Earth thereafter.
Shouldn't these be given as separate, contradictory versions, instead of as a single, amalgamated one? {{unsigned|95.22.63.145}}

== Portrayals of Galadriel in adaptions ==

The passage where it talks about Galadriel in the Two Towers in Peter's film trilogy I think makes a mistake. It says Galadriel sending elven soldiers to Helm's Deep is practically unthinkable, but in the film, Haldir clearly states that he "brings word from Elrond of Rivendell". So that would imply that Elrond sent them, and not Galadriel. {{unsigned|Zaccarius}}

:I certainly agree that there are way too many value judgements in this section which breaks neutrality. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:27, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

== Suggestions for improvement ==

It is my understanding that this website (as is general among Tolkienists), holds the policy that any work published by Tolkien during his lifetime is the true canon, while in the case of unpublished works, what came later is more correct than what came earlier (except if it contradicts the canon). However, I’ve noticed that this article doesn’t seem to follow that policy at some places. I would like to edit it, but first I wanted to consult it here, to see if the changes are agreed upon.

As for this line: “During the troubles that followed, it is unclear if she took any part in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.”

In a late essay published in Unfinished Tales, is said that Galadriel revolted along with the other Noldor, but “Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.”
Since I’m not aware that this is contradicted by any other work published or later than this one, I think it’s safe to say that she fought against the Kinslayers.

“Given the choice whether to stay in Middle-earth or not, Galadriel and Celeborn surprisingly decided to remain. Galadriel was still very proud, even arrogant, and refused to accept the pardon of the Valar and therefore exiled herself in Middle-earth.”

A passage in The Road Goes Ever On says: “After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.”
This is the only canon explanation of why Galadriel remained in Middle-earth, so it should replace the current line in the main article.

“Eventually Galadriel and Celeborn made contact with the Nandor of Amdír, who dwelt in a forest realm called Lórinand across the Misty Mountains.”
A note in Unfinished Tales says that the concept that Lórinand was the original name was abandoned. The original name would be Lindórinand. Only after Galadriel became ruler of the forest and brought the mallorns, was the name changed to Lórinand, and later, Lorien.

“It was during their days of power and glory in Lothlórien (either before or after the deaths of Amdír and Amroth) that Galadriel bore her first and only child: a daughter exceedingly fair named Celebrían.”
In “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn” (Unfinished Tales) it’s said that right after Sauron’s defeat in Eregion, a Council was held in Rivendel in which Elrond fell in love with Celebrian. This happened clearly before Amdír and Amroth died. It wouldn’t be either during Galadriel’s days of power and glory in Lothlórien. That came much later.

Apart from this, I’d like to rearrange the section in “Other versions of the legendarium” to separate the different contradictory versions. Right now, they’re all mixed as if it was a single one.
--[[Special:Contributions/90.174.2.72|90.174.2.72]] 11:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

:I support all of this. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:45, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
:: Same here. [[User:Amaranth|Amaranth]] 14:17, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

== Propose the removal of the 'Sources' tag ==

This tag has been in place since at least 2010 (if not earlier), at that time the page had zero references but it now has twenty two, so I would suggest that this is sufficient for the removal of the 'Sources' tag but I did not want to do so myself. --[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] 16:44, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

:I think the template can be remove because there are many references (save for the dates maybe). However, there is a lack of pagination for the references from TLOTR and UT (the manual says there is not need to include pagination for UT, but I disagree). I don't have the required TLOTR edition, but I want to improve the references from UT (the section of OVOTL needs a lot of rework) and I'll remove the template then. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

:Ok, I removed the template because I don't know when I'll be able to revise it. Inline citations, pagination and OVOTL should be improved: this is an important article! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 16:24, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

== Misrepresentation of Galadriel ==

In Tolkiengateway Galadriel's birthplace in Tirion, but this is nowhere explicitly stated by Tolkien, in Annals of Aman it's only stated she was born in Eldamar, this makes it possible that her birth place was either in Tirion or Alqualondë. Which one? It is open and depends on the reader's take.

"Though the source of her hair colour was from her father and her foremother Indis, it was said among the Eldar that her hair had captured the light of the Two Trees in Valinor, which resulted a unique and dazzling colour of gold and silver." - Tolkiengateway (TG)

The above passage in TG is sourced to The Peoples of Middle-earth, "XI. The Shibboleth of Fëanor". But in Shibboleth essay it's actually stated her hair "**was golden like the hair of her father and her foremother Indis, but richer and more
radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the star-like silver of her mother**". TG however phrases it like Eldar claim that her hair shone both silver and gold is false and her hair was actually only golden. This is confusing early ideas of Tolkien with their actual source (Shibboleth of Feanor written in 1968) and other later writings of Tolkien such as a letter which he wrote in 1973. "...she had long
hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition
and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats." - a letter to Mrs Catharine Findlay 6 March 1973

"During the Darkening of Valinor, she was very independent and visionary. She swore no oaths, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth kindled a desire in her heart, as she was eager to see those wide unguarded lands and rule a realm of her own." - TG

This isn't strictly inaccurate, but TG is missing to mention she already had such desire since the Strife of the Noldor, and that Feanor's speech kindled in her heart because she was already long corrupt, as can be seen in the Shibboleth chapter. Also they are missing here to mention she was also motivated because of her kinship with Sindar (who needed aid against Morgoth).

The Years of the Trees section of Galadriel page in TG is wholly missing to mention she was a chief leader during the entire Rebellion and Flight of the Noldor and she was uncontrollably moved by her excessive pride and rejected every warning and message of the Valar. This is the chief characterization of Galadriel especially in later versions. Her character arc is greatly about overcoming her pride. You know, mentioning those stuff is necessary to understand why she did what she did. (There's a glimpse into her characterization in Characterization section but I think it's just not enough and more details and elaboration was necessary)

Also her surviving the Battle of the Lammoth is completely missing in Tolkiengateway.

"Galadriel did not go with him and remained in Doriath with her husband, though she occasionally visited her brother in Nargothrond." - TG

Celeborn wasn't her husband in the versions where he was a Prince of Doriath. He was her boyfriend and later fiance. They only married in the Second Age long after Doriath was destroyed. Look up Galadriel and Celeborn in the Nature of Middle-earth book to see more details about this.

In the published Silmarillion Christopher Tolkien used a version of Galadriel where she only once visited Nargothrond. It's never again stated she visited there again, as opposed to what Tolkiengateway claims. And apparently JRR Tolkien himself had rejected the idea that she ever visited Nargothrond, as can be seen in both Later Quenta Silmarillion 1 and 2: "Galadriel his sister went never to Nargothrond," and "Galadriel his sister dwelt neverin Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of
Melian,"

"Presumably, she returned to Doriath to live with her husband." - TG

Again, Galadriel never went to live in Nargothrond in Later Quenta Silmarillion. And in the version where she had done that, it's pointed out she did return, since it's said her dwelling in Nargothrond was only for a while, and see also the Grey Annals Year 420 where Melian foretells about coming of Beren to Galadriel (this part is also published in Silmarillion).

Also the fact that they have missed to mention Galadriel was a loremaster and athelete and "a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor" and "a handmaid of Melian the Immortal in the realm of Doriath" and "of her learned great wisdom and lore" is significant. By far Galadriel in TG is just bland, we don't even know her talents if we only read TG.

"Galadriel and Celeborn did not have any significant role in the general course of events in the War of the Jewels. It is said that even before the Fall of Nargothrond (F.A. 495), she passed over the mountains to [5] Eriador, far from the turmoil of the last years of the First Age." - TG

This passage in TG is sourced to The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Mirror of Galadriel". But the problem is, in FotR Celeborn wasn't even ever present in Beleriand. Celeborn was not a Prince of Doriath according to FotR, he had never even been into Doriath, and Galadriel had never met him there. I'd let Tolkien's son himself explain this radically different versions:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

So in the versions where Celeborn is a Prince of the Sindar of Doriath Galadriel was actually in Beleriand until the end of it, meaning she had gone through the Ruin of Doriath and the rescue of Elwing with the Silmaril, defending Elwing in the Third Kinslaying, the War of Wrath and the final overthrown of Morgoth in this war. It can be said Tolkien contradicted himself, but not necessarily, I think it's possible to reconcile Galadriel's statement in FotR with Appendix and RGEO (which were published by Tolkien himself) and other writings of Tolkien (which were published by his scholars). Firstly, Galadriel doesn't specify which mountains she crossed, therefore the mountains can refer to any mountains in Aman and North West of Middle-earth, and secondly, Galadriel is oversimplifying the timeline by saying 'ere the fall of Nargothrond', this event of the Fall of Nargothrond is a definite point that even the slightly educated people (such as Pippin) in the lore of the Elder Days can understand that it's a long long time ago. In other word, ere the Fall of Nargothrond is a term used in-universe by some people to refer to a long long time ago especially when talking to people who are not masters of lore of the First Age.

"After the War of Wrath and the overthrow of Morgoth, she chose to remain with Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth, but also because she was one of those eager to explore Middle-earth from the beginning.[13] " - TG

I checked their source and saw it's again from an early version. One of Tolkien scholars dated Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn draft to around late 1950s, and although Tolkien's son himself didn't date this writing he agreed that it's from a early years and too many things in this draft were discarded. Although the passage from TG is not strictly inaccurate, but it's missing to mention her chief and dominant reason of rejecting the pardon of the Valar in later versions is always because of her pride. This is too many times stated in later writings, for instance in Shibboleth it's stated: "**Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth**."

"Celeborn ruled over the fiefdom of Harlindon .. Eventually, the couple crossed into Eriador with many Noldor in their following. Together with Sindar and Green-elves, they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial" - TG

TG is literally contradicting themselves, again. Celeborn ruling Harlindon is from the version where he was a Sinda who had gone through the War of the Jewels until the end of it, with his fiancee Galadriel, and after Beleriand sank into the Sea they setlled in Lindon/Harlindon. TG however is confusing and merging two wholly different versions together.

TG says by the year 300 SA Galadriel and Celeborn lived at Lake Nenuial. This is just from a draft and abandoned notes dated to later years of 1950s. This has no basis in what Tolkien himself published.

In LotR Appendix (revised edition) he published: In Second Age " In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel.... Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains .... 750
Eregion founded by the Noldor." And in the subsequent year Tolkien published in the Notes to Road Goes Ever On: "She passed over the Mountains of Ered Luin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."

Meaning, Galadriel and Celeborn were there ruling Harlindon until 750 SA when they left and went to Eregion.

"They departed [from the Lake] for Eregion and arrived there by S.A. 750.[13][14] It was ruled by Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor and distant cousin of Galadriel." - TG

This kinda makes it look like they arrived to Eregion when it was already established, and TG is missing to mention Galadriel and Celeborn had a chief part in establishing Eregion, alongside their bestfriend Celebrimbor. Also TG is missing to point out almost the entire narrative of Galadriel in Eregion. There's almost no mention of her narrative with Dwarves, and her part against Sauron In Disguise.

"It was only sometime between S.A. 1350 and 1400 did she cross the Hithaeglir through Khazad-dûm and relocated to there with Celebrían becoming great among the Wood-elves.[13]" - TG

Again, discarded idea from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (1959). In 1960s writings, published in Unfinished Tales, Parma Eldalamberon 17, and Nature of Middle-earth, it is stated too many times: “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion [in the year 1697] passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." “... "domination" of Galadriel and Celeborn ..." In Lorien. "...after the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien” and as Christopher elaborates in a writing from much the same time it is implied "after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration into Lorien while Galadriel joined Gil-Galad in Lindon."

Galadriel was a total badass in the entire narrative of Forging of the Rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron, even in the earlier version where she wasn't personally in the battlefield, yet TG has selected to not mention any of it.

"By the power of Nenya, the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful." - TG

Why is this passage in Second Age timeline? Christopher Tolkien points out Galadriel using Nenya in Second Age was a slip in a hasty draft, this slip contradicted both the draft itself and the already established lore, which will be explained further more below.

"After the War of the Elves and Sauron ended, she passed again through Moria with Celebrían and came to Imladris, seeking Celeborn.[13] There she found him, and there they dwelt together for a long time.[13]" - TG

Never happened in the revised version. Celeborn had not retreated to Rivendell after the Fall of Eregion; as quoted above he had retreated to Lorien.

"But at some later time, Galadriel and Celeborn departed from Imladris and went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth" - TG

Galadriel never lived in Dol Amroth in "canon"

First let's see why she decided to live in Dol Amroth in the earlier version:

She used her Ring in the Second Age and "its power upon her was great also and unforeseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and return into the West, so her joy in Middle-earth was diminished"

"the sea longing grew so strong in her that she ..." committed Lorinand to Amroth and determined " to leave Lorinand and to dwell near the sea." she "dwelt in Belfalas .... there Amroth their son at times visited them ... it was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there"

In the note against these passages Christopher explains: "Galadriel cannot have made use of the powers of Nenya until a much later time, after the loss of the Ruling Ring; but it must be admitted that the text does not at at all suggest this (although she is said just above to have advised Celebrimbor that the Elven Rings should never be used)"

If you have read the Silmarllion and LOTR and its Appendix you see the same idea that Christopher is talking about is explained: Elves would have been enslaved if they had used their Rings as long as Sauron possessed the One. How come Galadriel breaks reality by heavily using Nenya in SA? Because... as Chris explained this version was written "very hastily".

If Galadriel had never used Nenya in SA, which she did not, because she could not, then she never grew to become so sick and long for the Sea so badly to go and live near the Sea for 5000 years.

There is a lot of discarded writings in the version which TG is talking about. For example, in later writings Galadriel actually returned to Lorien three times before she became its ruler in the Third Age. Twice she returned to Lorien in the Second Age. But as Chris explains, it is not clear where did she go when she left Lorien in the SA, twice.

Anyway, as Chris says: "it is not much clear in the late accounts where Galadriel and Celeborn passed the long years of the Second Age after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador; there are at any rate no further mentions of their agelong sojourn in Belfalas" and that for a very good reason, which me and Chris explained.

"After long journeys in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years.[17] It was there, in T.A. 109,[18] that their daughter Celebrían wedded Elrond Half-elven of Rivendell.

When King Amroth, son of Amdír, perished in T.A. 1981, Celeborn and Galadriel took up the rule of Lindórinand jointly, and were called the Lord and Lady of Galadhrim. Galadriel planted the mallorn seeds brought with her from Lindon," - TG

Again confusing the timeline beyond comprehension. The actual whereabouts of Galadriel in TA in the text:

"during the Third Age Galadriel became filled with foreboding, and with Celeborn she journeyed to Lórien and stayed there long with Amroth, being especially concerned to learn all news and rumours of the growing shadow in Mirkwood and the dark stronghold in Dol Guldur." - Unfinished Tales

According to the Tale of the Years the Shadow appeared in Mirkwood in around 1050 Third Age or so. There's no statement where it would explicitly indicate where was Galadriel before returning to Lorien in around 1050 TA. But the implication is that as the mother of Celebrian she was obliged, according to Laws and Customs of the Eldar, to attend to her daughter's wedding. Therefore it can be presumed Galadriel lived in Rivendell in early TA before returning to Lorien in 1050 TA.

Her journeys of gathering information happened some time AFTER 1050 TA. The date of her returning to Rivendell some time before 1981 is not specified exactly. But it's evident that it was very long years of stay in Rivendell which in turn tells us she was in Rivendell during the War with Angmar.

"To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age; and in the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron's recovery arose [in Dol Guldur], they dwelt there again for a long time. In her wisdom Galadriel saw that Lórien would be a stronghold and point of power to prevent the Shadow from crossing the Anduin in the war that must inevitably come before it was again defeated (if that were possible); but that it needed a rule of greater strength and wisdom than the Silvan folk possessed. Nevertheless, it was not until the disaster in Moria, when by means is beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron's power actually crossed the Anduin and Lórien was in great peril, its king lost, its people fleeing and likely to leave it deserted to likely occupied by Orcs, that Galadriel and Celeborn [returned from Rivendell and] took up their permanent abode in Lórien, and its government. But they took no title of King or Queen," - UT

In FotR it is plain clear Lorien had already have mallorn trees before 1981 TA, as is said during the time of Amroth there were golden trees in Lorien and actually Cerin Amroth was built upon em. And it is said it was built 'in happier days'.

In Unfinished Tales there's two conflicting accounts about Cerin Amroth, in one of them it was built as a watchtower to look upon Dol Guldur. However in a writing from 1969 it was built because of Amroth's love for Nimrodel, which I think pretty much implies it was before the foundation of Dol Guldur. "Amroth was King of Lórien, after his father Amdír was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad [in the year 3434 of the Second Age]. His land had peace for many years after the defeat of Sauron. Though Sindarin in descent he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in the tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. This he did because of his love for Nimrodel."

In any case, Galadriel had already introduced Golden Trees into Lorien way before 1981 TA. But when she and Celeborn became rulers of Lorien she finally 'finished' her 'project' by developing it far more; in her establishing of Caras Galadhon the City of the Fortress of Trees she poured a lot of her power and energy.

"In T.A. 2463, the White Council was formed. Galadriel, being one of the Wise and the greatest living threat to Sauron, was one of the members." - TG

This is again downplaying Galadriel. Since Galadriel herself formed the White Council as can be seen in her words in the Mirror of Galadriel chapter. Nowhere it is explicitly stated Galadriel was the greatest living threat to Sauron in Third Age, Sauron thought of Galadriel as his chief enemy in the Second Age, but after coming of Gandalf to Middle-earth his chief enemy may have been now Gandalf, at least Gandalf himself believed this as can be seen in his words in RotK book.

Galadriel vs Sauron in the Ride of Eorl is missing from this page.

In RGEO "She couldn't return to Valinor because a ban was set against her ... However, there are two late essays written by Tolkien after The Road Goes Ever On and published in Unfinished Tales that contradict this" - TG

Let's see what is actually said in RGEO: "After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."

This can be indeed read as 'she was outright banned and was given no chance of forgiveness', but it can be also read as that the last sentence 'and she had proudly replied' had happened before the ban was set. As in, her rejection of the Valar was THE reason that the ban was set. And this is how it MUST be read. It makes no sense to interpret that Galadriel was given no chance of forgiveness, since people who were far far more sinful than Galadriel, such as Sauron and Maglor and Maedhros, were offered to come to Valinor and ask for the pardon of the Valar. And there's just too many writings that agrees that Tolkien himself preferred us to read it like that. For instance this from Parma: “Galadriel is thinking of her present state as a 'rebel' who refused the pardon and recall of the Exiles to Valinor." Or this from the Letters: "in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic
guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return." Or the Shibboleth quote which I have quoted before.

So many other awesome stuff is missing in Galadriel page in TG. And there's just unending list of problems with Tolkiengateway page of Galadriel.

Forums:Galadriel page needs fixing

2022-01-18T19:02:01Z

GalFan3: Misrepresentation of Galadriel

{{Counciltop}}


In Tolkiengateway Galadriel's birthplace in Tirion, but this is nowhere explicitly stated by Tolkien, in Annals of Aman it's only stated she was born in Eldamar, this makes it possible that her birth place was either in Tirion or Alqualondë. Which one? It is open and depends on the reader's take.

"Though the source of her hair colour was from her father and her foremother Indis, it was said among the Eldar that her hair had captured the light of the Two Trees in Valinor, which resulted a unique and dazzling colour of gold and silver." - Tolkiengateway (TG)

The above passage in TG is sourced to The Peoples of Middle-earth, "XI. The Shibboleth of Fëanor". But in Shibboleth essay it's actually stated her hair "**was golden like the hair of her father and her foremother Indis, but richer and more
radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the star-like silver of her mother**". TG however phrases it like Eldar claim that her hair shone both silver and gold is false and her hair was actually only golden. This is confusing early ideas of Tolkien with their actual source (Shibboleth of Feanor written in 1968) and other later writings of Tolkien such as a letter which he wrote in 1973. "...she had long
hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition
and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats." - a letter to Mrs Catharine Findlay 6 March 1973

"During the Darkening of Valinor, she was very independent and visionary. She swore no oaths, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth kindled a desire in her heart, as she was eager to see those wide unguarded lands and rule a realm of her own." - TG

This isn't strictly inaccurate, but TG is missing to mention she already had such desire since the Strife of the Noldor, and that Feanor's speech kindled in her heart because she was already long corrupt, as can be seen in the Shibboleth chapter. Also they are missing here to mention she was also motivated because of her kinship with Sindar (who needed aid against Morgoth).

The Years of the Trees section of Galadriel page in TG is wholly missing to mention she was a chief leader during the entire Rebellion and Flight of the Noldor and she was uncontrollably moved by her excessive pride and rejected every warning and message of the Valar. This is the chief characterization of Galadriel especially in later versions. Her character arc is greatly about overcoming her pride. You know, mentioning those stuff is necessary to understand why she did what she did. (There's a glimpse into her characterization in Characterization section but I think it's just not enough and more details and elaboration was necessary)

Also her surviving the Battle of the Lammoth is completely missing in Tolkiengateway.

"Galadriel did not go with him and remained in Doriath with her husband, though she occasionally visited her brother in Nargothrond." - TG

Celeborn wasn't her husband in the versions where he was a Prince of Doriath. He was her boyfriend and later fiance. They only married in the Second Age long after Doriath was destroyed. Look up Galadriel and Celeborn in the Nature of Middle-earth book to see more details about this.

In the published Silmarillion Christopher Tolkien used a version of Galadriel where she only once visited Nargothrond. It's never again stated she visited there again, as opposed to what Tolkiengateway claims. And apparently JRR Tolkien himself had rejected the idea that she ever visited Nargothrond, as can be seen in both Later Quenta Silmarillion 1 and 2: "Galadriel his sister went never to Nargothrond," and "Galadriel his sister dwelt neverin Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of
Melian,"

"Presumably, she returned to Doriath to live with her husband." - TG

Again, Galadriel never went to live in Nargothrond in Later Quenta Silmarillion. And in the version where she had done that, it's pointed out she did return, since it's said her dwelling in Nargothrond was only for a while, and see also the Grey Annals Year 420 where Melian foretells about coming of Beren to Galadriel (this part is also published in Silmarillion).

Also the fact that they have missed to mention Galadriel was a loremaster and athelete and "a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor" and "a handmaid of Melian the Immortal in the realm of Doriath" and "of her learned great wisdom and lore" is significant. By far Galadriel in TG is just bland, we don't even know her talents if we only read TG.

"Galadriel and Celeborn did not have any significant role in the general course of events in the War of the Jewels. It is said that even before the Fall of Nargothrond (F.A. 495), she passed over the mountains to [5] Eriador, far from the turmoil of the last years of the First Age." - TG

This passage in TG is sourced to The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Mirror of Galadriel". But the problem is, in FotR Celeborn wasn't even ever present in Beleriand. Celeborn was not a Prince of Doriath according to FotR, he had never even been into Doriath, and Galadriel had never met him there. I'd let Tolkien's son himself explain this radically different versions:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

So in the versions where Celeborn is a Prince of the Sindar of Doriath Galadriel was actually in Beleriand until the end of it, meaning she had gone through the Ruin of Doriath and the rescue of Elwing with the Silmaril, defending Elwing in the Third Kinslaying, the War of Wrath and the final overthrown of Morgoth in this war. It can be said Tolkien contradicted himself, but not necessarily, I think it's possible to reconcile Galadriel's statement in FotR with Appendix and RGEO (which were published by Tolkien himself) and other writings of Tolkien (which were published by his scholars). Firstly, Galadriel doesn't specify which mountains she crossed, therefore the mountains can refer to any mountains in Aman and North West of Middle-earth, and secondly, Galadriel is oversimplifying the timeline by saying 'ere the fall of Nargothrond', this event of the Fall of Nargothrond is a definite point that even the slightly educated people (such as Pippin) in the lore of the Elder Days can understand that it's a long long time ago. In other word, ere the Fall of Nargothrond is a term used in-universe by some people to refer to a long long time ago especially when talking to people who are not masters of lore of the First Age.

"After the War of Wrath and the overthrow of Morgoth, she chose to remain with Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth, but also because she was one of those eager to explore Middle-earth from the beginning.[13] " - TG

I checked their source and saw it's again from an early version. One of Tolkien scholars dated Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn draft to around late 1950s, and although Tolkien's son himself didn't date this writing he agreed that it's from a early years and too many things in this draft were discarded. Although the passage from TG is not strictly inaccurate, but it's missing to mention her chief and dominant reason of rejecting the pardon of the Valar in later versions is always because of her pride. This is too many times stated in later writings, for instance in Shibboleth it's stated: "**Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth**."

"Celeborn ruled over the fiefdom of Harlindon .. Eventually, the couple crossed into Eriador with many Noldor in their following. Together with Sindar and Green-elves, they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial" - TG

TG is literally contradicting themselves, again. Celeborn ruling Harlindon is from the version where he was a Sinda who had gone through the War of the Jewels until the end of it, with his fiancee Galadriel, and after Beleriand sank into the Sea they setlled in Lindon/Harlindon. TG however is confusing and merging two wholly different versions together.

TG says by the year 300 SA Galadriel and Celeborn lived at Lake Nenuial. This is just from a draft and abandoned notes dated to later years of 1950s. This has no basis in what Tolkien himself published.

In LotR Appendix (revised edition) he published: In Second Age " In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel.... Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains .... 750
Eregion founded by the Noldor." And in the subsequent year Tolkien published in the Notes to Road Goes Ever On: "She passed over the Mountains of Ered Luin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."

Meaning, Galadriel and Celeborn were there ruling Harlindon until 750 SA when they left and went to Eregion.

"They departed [from the Lake] for Eregion and arrived there by S.A. 750.[13][14] It was ruled by Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor and distant cousin of Galadriel." - TG

This kinda makes it look like they arrived to Eregion when it was already established, and TG is missing to mention Galadriel and Celeborn had a chief part in establishing Eregion, alongside their bestfriend Celebrimbor. Also TG is missing to point out almost the entire narrative of Galadriel in Eregion. There's almost no mention of her narrative with Dwarves, and her part against Sauron In Disguise.

"It was only sometime between S.A. 1350 and 1400 did she cross the Hithaeglir through Khazad-dûm and relocated to there with Celebrían becoming great among the Wood-elves.[13]" - TG

Again, discarded idea from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (1959). In 1960s writings, published in Unfinished Tales, Parma Eldalamberon 17, and Nature of Middle-earth, it is stated too many times: “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion [in the year 1697] passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." “... "domination" of Galadriel and Celeborn ..." In Lorien. "...after the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien” and as Christopher elaborates in a writing from much the same time it is implied "after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration into Lorien while Galadriel joined Gil-Galad in Lindon."

Galadriel was a total badass in the entire narrative of Forging of the Rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron, even in the earlier version where she wasn't personally in the battlefield, yet TG has selected to not mention any of it.

"By the power of Nenya, the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful." - TG

Why is this passage in Second Age timeline? Christopher Tolkien points out Galadriel using Nenya in Second Age was a slip in a hasty draft, this slip contradicted both the draft itself and the already established lore, which will be explained further more below.

"After the War of the Elves and Sauron ended, she passed again through Moria with Celebrían and came to Imladris, seeking Celeborn.[13] There she found him, and there they dwelt together for a long time.[13]" - TG

Never happened in the revised version. Celeborn had not retreated to Rivendell after the Fall of Eregion; as quoted above he had retreated to Lorien.

"But at some later time, Galadriel and Celeborn departed from Imladris and went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth" - TG

Galadriel never lived in Dol Amroth in "canon"

First let's see why she decided to live in Dol Amroth in the earlier version:

She used her Ring in the Second Age and "its power upon her was great also and unforeseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and return into the West, so her joy in Middle-earth was diminished"

"the sea longing grew so strong in her that she ..." committed Lorinand to Amroth and determined " to leave Lorinand and to dwell near the sea." she "dwelt in Belfalas .... there Amroth their son at times visited them ... it was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there"

In the note against these passages Christopher explains: "Galadriel cannot have made use of the powers of Nenya until a much later time, after the loss of the Ruling Ring; but it must be admitted that the text does not at at all suggest this (although she is said just above to have advised Celebrimbor that the Elven Rings should never be used)"

If you have read the Silmarllion and LOTR and its Appendix you see the same idea that Christopher is talking about is explained: Elves would have been enslaved if they had used their Rings as long as Sauron possessed the One. How come Galadriel breaks reality by heavily using Nenya in SA? Because... as Chris explained this version was written "very hastily".

If Galadriel had never used Nenya in SA, which she did not, because she could not, then she never grew to become so sick and long for the Sea so badly to go and live near the Sea for 5000 years.

There is a lot of discarded writings in the version which TG is talking about. For example, in later writings Galadriel actually returned to Lorien three times before she became its ruler in the Third Age. Twice she returned to Lorien in the Second Age. But as Chris explains, it is not clear where did she go when she left Lorien in the SA, twice.

Anyway, as Chris says: "it is not much clear in the late accounts where Galadriel and Celeborn passed the long years of the Second Age after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador; there are at any rate no further mentions of their agelong sojourn in Belfalas" and that for a very good reason, which me and Chris explained.

"After long journeys in Rhovanion, from Gondor and the borders of Mordor to Thranduil in the north, Celeborn and Galadriel passed over the mountains to Imladris, and there dwelt for many years.[17] It was there, in T.A. 109,[18] that their daughter Celebrían wedded Elrond Half-elven of Rivendell.

When King Amroth, son of Amdír, perished in T.A. 1981, Celeborn and Galadriel took up the rule of Lindórinand jointly, and were called the Lord and Lady of Galadhrim. Galadriel planted the mallorn seeds brought with her from Lindon," - TG

Again confusing the timeline beyond comprehension. The actual whereabouts of Galadriel in TA in the text:

"during the Third Age Galadriel became filled with foreboding, and with Celeborn she journeyed to Lórien and stayed there long with Amroth, being especially concerned to learn all news and rumours of the growing shadow in Mirkwood and the dark stronghold in Dol Guldur." - Unfinished Tales

According to the Tale of the Years the Shadow appeared in Mirkwood in around 1050 Third Age or so. There's no statement where it would explicitly indicate where was Galadriel before returning to Lorien in around 1050 TA. But the implication is that as the mother of Celebrian she was obliged, according to Laws and Customs of the Eldar, to attend to her daughter's wedding. Therefore it can be presumed Galadriel lived in Rivendell in early TA before returning to Lorien in 1050 TA.

Her journeys of gathering information happened some time AFTER 1050 TA. The date of her returning to Rivendell some time before 1981 is not specified exactly. But it's evident that it was very long years of stay in Rivendell which in turn tells us she was in Rivendell during the War with Angmar.

"To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age; and in the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron's recovery arose [in Dol Guldur], they dwelt there again for a long time. In her wisdom Galadriel saw that Lórien would be a stronghold and point of power to prevent the Shadow from crossing the Anduin in the war that must inevitably come before it was again defeated (if that were possible); but that it needed a rule of greater strength and wisdom than the Silvan folk possessed. Nevertheless, it was not until the disaster in Moria, when by means is beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron's power actually crossed the Anduin and Lórien was in great peril, its king lost, its people fleeing and likely to leave it deserted to likely occupied by Orcs, that Galadriel and Celeborn [returned from Rivendell and] took up their permanent abode in Lórien, and its government. But they took no title of King or Queen," - UT

In FotR it is plain clear Lorien had already have mallorn trees before 1981 TA, as is said during the time of Amroth there were golden trees in Lorien and actually Cerin Amroth was built upon em. And it is said it was built 'in happier days'.

In Unfinished Tales there's two conflicting accounts about Cerin Amroth, in one of them it was built as a watchtower to look upon Dol Guldur. However in a writing from 1969 it was built because of Amroth's love for Nimrodel, which I think pretty much implies it was before the foundation of Dol Guldur. "Amroth was King of Lórien, after his father Amdír was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad [in the year 3434 of the Second Age]. His land had peace for many years after the defeat of Sauron. Though Sindarin in descent he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in the tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. This he did because of his love for Nimrodel."

In any case, Galadriel had already introduced Golden Trees into Lorien way before 1981 TA. But when she and Celeborn became rulers of Lorien she finally 'finished' her 'project' by developing it far more; in her establishing of Caras Galadhon the City of the Fortress of Trees she poured a lot of her power and energy.

"In T.A. 2463, the White Council was formed. Galadriel, being one of the Wise and the greatest living threat to Sauron, was one of the members." - TG

This is again downplaying Galadriel. Since Galadriel herself formed the White Council as can be seen in her words in the Mirror of Galadriel chapter. Nowhere it is explicitly stated Galadriel was the greatest living threat to Sauron in Third Age, Sauron thought of Galadriel as his chief enemy in the Second Age, but after coming of Gandalf to Middle-earth his chief enemy may have been now Gandalf, at least Gandalf himself believed this as can be seen in his words in RotK book.

Galadriel vs Sauron in the Ride of Eorl is missing from this page.

In RGEO "She couldn't return to Valinor because a ban was set against her ... However, there are two late essays written by Tolkien after The Road Goes Ever On and published in Unfinished Tales that contradict this" - TG

Let's see what is actually said in RGEO: "After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."

This can be indeed read as 'she was outright banned and was given no chance of forgiveness', but it can be also read as that the last sentence 'and she had proudly replied' had happened before the ban was set. As in, her rejection of the Valar was THE reason that the ban was set. And this is how it MUST be read. It makes no sense to interpret that Galadriel was given no chance of forgiveness, since people who were far far more sinful than Galadriel, such as Sauron and Maglor and Maedhros, were offered to come to Valinor and ask for the pardon of the Valar. And there's just too many writings that agrees that Tolkien himself preferred us to read it like that. For instance this from Parma: “Galadriel is thinking of her present state as a 'rebel' who refused the pardon and recall of the Exiles to Valinor." Or this from the Letters: "in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic
guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return." Or the Shibboleth quote which I have quoted before.

So many other awesome stuff is missing in Galadriel page in TG. And there's just unending list of problems with Tolkiengateway page of Galadriel.