Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

User talk:Mith/2015

2015-09-16T08:02:36Z

Henry:

{{talkarchive|2006|2007|2008|2009|2010|2011|2012|2013|2014}}
<table style="border: 1px solid #c0c090; background-color: #f8eaba; width:80%; margin-left: auto; margin-right:auto;"><tr><td rowspan="2">[[Image:Nuvola apps edu languages.png|none|50px|link=]]</td><td><div id="talk" style="text-align: center; padding: 5px; clear: both;><big>'''''Welcome to [[User:Mith|Mith]]'s talk page.'''''</big></div></td></tr><tr><td><ul><li>Please [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} post your new topic at the ''bottom''] of this page, including a '''<nowiki>==Descriptive heading==</nowiki>'''.</li><li>You should sign and date your posts by inserting "'''<span style="letter-spacing:.2em;"><nowiki>~~</nowiki>~~</span>'''" at the end of them.</li><li>Please indent your posts with "''':'''" if replying to an existing topic (or "'''::'''" if replying to a reply, etc.).</li><li>I will generally respond ''here'' to comments that are posted here, rather than replying via your talk page (or the article talk page, if you are writing to me about an article), so you may want to [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=watch}} watch this page].</li><li>If I have left a message on ''your'' talk page, please continue the discussion there; '''DO NOT''' reply here. This is ensure that discussions do not become fragmented over several talk pages.</li></ul>[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} '''⇒ Start a new talk topic.''']</td></tr></table>

== Hans-Ulrich Möhring ==

Hey Mith! I saw, that you deleted the article about the German translator Hans-Ulrich Möhring (''The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún'') with the comment ''"Just not notable enough"''. Möhring was now responsible for the German translation of another posthum released work. ''The Fall of Arthur'' will be published under the title ''König Arthurs Untergang'' on 21 March, 2015 in Germany, translated by Hans-Ulrich Möhring. I think, that two translations of complex lyrics by J.R.R. Tolkien are enough to legitimate the existence of an article about him. What do you think? --[[User:Sigismond|Sigismond]] 09:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

:For me, no (although others might take a different view). We have a painful habit on TG of creating articles about individuals which are essentially one line: "X is a Y who worked on Z." Is there anything (verifiable) to say about Möhring as translator of ''Sigurd and Gudrún'' and ''The Fall of Arthur'' beyond the fact that he translated them? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

::I see what you mean. To write something about his translation work on ''The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún'' (in my opinion) would make no sense in an English Wiki, so the only mentionable point would be the fact, that Möhring corresponded with Tom Shippey while translating. If you think, that the article is of no importance for Tolkien Gateway, then it's ok. I just wanted to know the reasons. --[[User:Sigismond|Sigismond]] 09:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

:::If he'd corresponded with Tolkien himself then that would put him in a different category, in my view. My fear is having an article that essentially doesn't really tell the reader anything. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

== Page merging question ==

Hey Mith, I went ahead and tackled merging [[Sea-elves]] into [[Teleri]]. I wasn't sure if my method of merging the pages was right: I copied the wiki-edit text to the other page and edited it some, then marked the original page for deletion. I changed the links that lead to Sea-elves to [[Falmari]] or Teleri where needed. I wasn't sure if this was good or if I needed to do anything else/something different. [[User:Xsys|xsys]] 19:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

:Hi xsys, and welcome to Tolkien Gateway! To merge a page we transfer the appropriate content and turn the page into a redirect (i.e. we don't mark it for deletion) - the reason for this is so people who search for "Sea-elves" will be taken to the Teleri page, for example. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

::That makes sense. Thanks! [[User:Xsys|xsys]] 20:33, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

==Images==

Good evening. This is [[User talk:2.84.120.176|User2.84.120.176]]. Could you upload upload more images on the page [[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]];I dont have this ability, but you do have this ability. Upload and put these NEW images on the Category:Images from The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.OK; {{unsignedanon|2.84.120.176}}

:Thanks for getting in touch. Remembering that the DVD of ''The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies'' isn't out yet (and therefore screencaps aren't so easy to obtain), do you have any particular images in mind? Or, perhaps you could [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup sign up to Tolkien Gateway] and upload them yourself? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:02, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

==Reminding==

Hi Mith, I wonder if you could please check your email? I've sent you a request a week ago :) [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 10:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:I have received the email but I passed it onto [[User:Hyarion]] to respond. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot. Anyway, I hope that he could reply to us soon, since, as it seems, he does not appear frequently. So here I put this forward again, mean not in the slightest to bother you. We are eager to make contact with Alan Lee, so I would be appreciated if you could give me the email address of him. [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 16:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I generally don't give out other people's email addresses without their permission. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I must apologize for my rudeness and discourtesy. [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 23:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

== Quick Question ==

How do you create separate pages on a page that you are creating? {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

:I don't understand what you mean. Create a separate page on a page you are creating? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

::Sort of, you know on a user page how you can create the different subtitles for your pages. I am wondering how to do that. {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

:::The same as you would create any other page: simply type the pagename as a URL and then press "create an article with that title". --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

::::Oh, thanks {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

==Mithrellas==

May I ask why have you deleted the infobox? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 09:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:You're going to need to be more specific: what infobox have I deleted? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::My mistake. I have just realized you reverted the edits to the period where there was no infobox. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::If you're going to insist on making three, four, five, six - and one occasion, nine! - consecutive edits, things like this will happen. Apologies for reverting the infobox as well but please can you try to learn to use the "Show preview" button and plan you edits. Nine small edits to an article are not necessary. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I take it back. Your record is actually 10 edits in a row ([[Tréowine]]). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::I know how to use the "Show preview" very well...But like I said, it often happens that I forget to include something in an article and have to edit it again. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::::You forget nine times in a row? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::::Maybe "forget" is a wrong word (although not completely). "Change my mind" would be a more appropriate word. Besides, you are editing for years and I, myself, only for a couple of days. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::::::Indeed. I think we're all aware of that! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

==Copyright for images==

Please, how can I get the copyright for an image that I want to upload, but that isn't already in the "Category:Evidence of permission granted by copyright holders" section? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:You will need to contact the copyright-holder and ask for their permission. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::By e-mail solely? Because I have already contacted a number of artists and they all gave permission. Technicality is my main issue in this matter. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::There needs to be some evidence in case it's ever challenged. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::Here's one: http://www.deviantart.com/messages/notes/#1_0/1281622023 [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 18:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

==Obituary title==

''Henry Bradley: 3 Dec., 1845-23 May, 1923'' is the official title of the obituary published in [[Bulletin of the Modern Humanities Research Association 20]] . All references I consulted used this title.So I think the article it should remain with that name. {{unsigned|Sigurd}}

:Absolutely not. Aside from the fact I don't think we need an article for an obituary written for someone on whom we have [[Henry Bradley|a very short article]] (we'd end up with a longer article on the obituary than on the man himself!), naming the article "''Henry Bradley: 3 Dec., 1845-23 May, 1923''" would be ridiculous verbose and unwieldy. If an article must be made it should be something like "Obituary for Henry Bradley", but I would be against its creation. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

::I dont think ridiculous since Tolkien himself give the name to the article. Someone put the same name in reference of that Bulletin 1923 here:[[http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Index:Writings_by_J.R.R._Tolkien Index:Writings_by_J.R.R._Tolkien]].And other books I read use the same name.In addition, the obituary contains a poem written by Tolkien in Old English. And also this obituary has his own topic on [[J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment]]([[User:Sigurd|Sigurd]] 21:24, 1 June 2015 (UTC))

:::Did Tolkien give the title, or was that the editor? In any case, it is a title of a printed obituary, not an online webpage. Any article title we choose would also be the URL. We aren't the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia and our usage should not - and does not - reflect what they have done. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

==Ninni-V==
Can you please rename the pictures of Ninni-V to Antonio Vinci. By the request of the artist. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:Can you please email me where the artists have granted their permission for their work to be hosted on Tolkien Gateway? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::I have asked the permission via note on DeviantArt. What would you like me to do? You cannot access the notes considering they are private and cannot be read unless one is logged in. So....??? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::{{blockquote|Also, as a bit of housekeeping, can you forward to me either a copy of the emails from the artists '''or a screenprint''' so we have a bit of a proof - my email is {{nospam|mith|tolkiengateway.net}}. Cheers --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)<br/><br/>Yes, I will. But just one reminder: all the images by '''VunastiMamut''' are mine. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)|[[User talk:Woolly Mammoth]]}}

:::--{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I have send you an email with a screen print for the said artist. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Thanks. What about the others? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::I will. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:26, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::I have. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

==Vandalism==

Mith, we have a problem. There is this random guy going by the name of Webbane who is destroying stuff right now! [[User:Bane|Bane]]

:He has deleted off my page, yours, Woolly's, the Forum and a load of paragraphs from articles. Can we remove his account or something??? {{unsigned|Arya}}

::It's all been dealt with now. Isn't it interesting how a User:Bane and a User:Webbane pop up on the same night! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You aren't blaming Bane though [[User:Arya|Arya]]

==Why are you deleting MY images??==
Those images that you have deleted are my artwork! Is this vandalism or what???? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

:I thought you said that they were all by other people - apologies. Although your picture of Uldor is [http://qnwn.net/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=116&Itemid=110&page=2 remarkably similar to one by James Adams] (also known as Sporeboy)? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

::Maybe because I borrowed the pictures from some of (with permission, which I have sent you by email) those guys, aye? Some of the pictures are by other people, AND some of them are mine (namely Elmo, Bór, Uldor, Formenos!). You are behaving like an asshole and you have no right (beside being an administrator), absolutely no right to delete those images!

:::Do not speak to me like that again. As an administrator I have every right to delete any image on this website whether it be yours or anyone else's.

:::So, your image of Uldor. Did you "borrow" the one from Sporeboy? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I will speak as I want to! And, considering your image of Uldor I granted the permission to use my artwork. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::You will be civil on this wiki or you will leave. Sporeboy gave you permission to amend his image? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

==Gaurwaith==
Hello! I know I posted this before on the Template:Gaurwaith talk page, but seriously, why isn't [[Andvír]] there? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 08:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:Fun fact: did you know there's only ever been [[Forum:Ilúvatar infobox|one other user in Tolkien Gateway's 10-year history to use the phrase "but seriously"]]? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:53, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::You did not answer my question. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:13, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::Because I haven't finished the template yet (which is why it hasn't been added to any article). Perhaps you should wait and see first before discussing the matter on two talk pages. Did you know about my fun fact? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::::"But seriously"? I reckon you must have spent years searching through every word and sentence on this page to come to that conclusion. And besides, what does that have to do with me? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Nope - took me about 10 seconds. OK. I'll call it. In my view you are a sockpuppet for Woolly Mammoth. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::First of all: how did you even come to the conclusion that I'm an alter ego of some other user? I have just signed up and I am already being accused of being a "sockpuppet" for some guy that I have never heard of until now. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 10:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::There are quite a number of signs; we'll be checking IPs later today. If you aren't WM I do sincerely apologise as this probably makes me look like a bit of a nutter; but if you are WM I have to admit that I am actually a bit impressed by your commitment to Tolkien Gateway that you have created a sockpuppet in order to carry on doing good work. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

==Music==
Do we have a license to use [[Tolkien Ensemble]]'s songs on this site? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 08:07, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:No. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::Laconic answer...Can we get one? There are images on this site with licenses ranging from artists of Deviantart, to artists of likes of [[John Howe]], [[Alan Lee]] and [[Ted Nasmith]]. Why not include music in this site? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::I doubt it. It's not something I personally see as desirable, either. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:49, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::::Have you heard the "Burial Song of Théoden" by Tolkien Ensemble? I think the visitors of this site should be entitled to hear this masterpiece (in my opinion). In any case...I will contact the Tolkien Ensemble myself. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::And yes...one more thing...What about this WM thing you were talking about? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::You would have to discuss this with other users (and admins) of this site first before initiating contact with them and seeking to put their songs this website. I personally don't think it would be appropriate for TG to host songs that people should be paying for. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::You did not answer my question! What about this WM thing I am accused!? I find myself insulted for, coinsidentally , wanting to expand this wiki as much as it is possible. And for your information, I am an editor on Wikipedia. And I am not talking about paying anything. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 10:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::No, but by having their songs on our website we are preventing them from earning money from them. I'm not convinced that that is right. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

==Pagination==
I have hi-res scans of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' on my computer. And I have seen before that pagination can be a sort of a mess, when multiple versions of the same book collide together. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 13:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:The pagination for ''The History of Middle-earth'' series is pretty much consistent (which is why we reference pages for those when we don't for ''The Lord of the Rings''). How long did it take you to scan them? What is the edition of your hardcopy? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:40, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::Sale of this book without a front cover may be unauthorized. If this book is coverless, it may have been reported to the publisher as “unsold or destroyed” and neither the author nor the publisher may have received payment for it.

::A Del Rey® Book Published by The Ballantine Publishing Group

::Copyright © 1983 by Frank Richard Williamson and Christopher Reuel Tolkien as Executors of the Estate of J. R. R. Tolkien

::All rights reserved under International and Pan-American Copyright Conventions.

::Published in the United States by The Ballantine Publishing Group, a division of Random House, Inc., New York.

::Del Rey and colophon are registered trademarks of Random House, Inc.www.delreydigital.com

::Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 83-12782

::ISBN 0-345-37521-1

::First published in the United States by Houghton Mifflin Company.

::Reprinted by special arrangement with Houghton Mifflin Company.

::Manufactured in the United States of America

::First Ballantine Books Edition: June 1992

::OPM 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 13:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

==Picture==
Hey, I noticed while skipping through pages that the picture for the page The Road Goes Ever On and On: The Maps of Tolkien's Middle Earth has nothing to do with the theme of the page as far as I can see. Yes, it's a picture of a book of maps, but it's not a picture of the book of maps we are talking about. I am still an utter newbie with this programing, and have no idea how to change the picture to a more accurate one. [[User:Arya|Arya]]

:Done. [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=The_Road_Goes_Ever_On_and_On:_The_Map_of_Tolkien%27s_Middle-earth&curid=35192&diff=272100&oldid=214177 Look at the change I've made] to see how the coding works. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:52, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

::Good that. Will be changing quite a few pics myself, correct me if you don't think that they are right. The titles match!!! :) [[User:Arya|Arya]]

==Elendilmir==

How should we address the confusion surrounding the number and fates of the different incarnations of the Elendilmir? See my note on the talk page of the relevant entry. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 06:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

:By discussing it on that article's talk page, and '''not''' on my talk page. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:21, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

::Sorry if I bothered you. This was literally the first interaction I've had with anyone on this site. I wasn't aware that I was doing something wrong. I asked you because the post on my talk page told me to bring any questions to you. I won't make the same mistake again. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 04:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

:::A user's talk page is for them specifically to respond (i.e. an issue directly for that user); an article's talk page is for discussion about that article (i.e. for anyone in the community). The problem with having a conversation elsewhere is that the discussion/decisions are divorced from the article - in future months/years other users won't think to look at my talk page to find out why a decision was made. It's simply good housekeeping to keep everything together with the article.
:::The welcome message on your talk page wasn't actually written by me (and I've been meaning to change it for a while), but there's a complicated technical reason why [[User:Mithbot|my bot]] has to leave the message. But when it comes to "''If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the Council forums or ask me on my talk page.''" the implication - which probably should be clearer - is that "any questions" are about the site/editing/policy/style as opposed to the future of individual articles.
:::I have obviously seen your contributions on both [[User talk:WadCheber#Welcome!|your own]] and [[User talk:Hyarion#Greeting new users|Hyarion's]] talk pages - I shall respond to it all here to prevent fragmentation of the conversation. I think "''After looking through the other entries in his talk page, I got the impression that this is pretty much par for the course with him.''" is unfair - there is only one user, WoollyMammoth, I was very firm with; he had made a lot of edits and was a particularly confrontational user who was [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block subsequently banned by another admin for his behaviour]. That does not indicate someone who "''is determined to be laconic and/or borderline hostile''" or who intends to "''chase people away''".
:::Having said all the above, my previous message was obviously a curt one, for which I apologise; I shouldn't have been so short with you and should have explained the situation more thoughtfully. On this occasion I did bite the newbie - thank you for calling me out on it. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
:::: No problem. We all make little mistakes. Thank you for explaining the issue more clearly. WoollyMammoth sowed the wind, so he reaped the whirlwind. No fault on your part there. I was talking about other, less obvious instances in your interactions above, but there is nothing so far beyond the pale as to call your personal qualification as an admin into question. I was probably a bit overly defensive as well. Thanks again for the advice and explanation. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 22:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

::::In fact, I should probably apologize to you as well. I think I overreacted. I was having a bad day myself, and I took it out on you, with very little reason. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 00:06, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

:::::Great to have you aboard WadCheber! I'm glad we got everything cleared up. If you have any other questions or suggestions don't hesitate to let us know, we really appreciate the feedback. Oh, and if it makes you guys feel any better; I'm having a great week :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:51, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

==Pixels==
I've noticed that I can't put down some pics on articles. Once I type the info down that should put down an article and I tap the preview button, all i get is 250 pixels in red text. What does this mean? Is it that the picture doesn't fit or am I typing out the info wrong? P.S. No article was hurt in the experimentations of me. [[User:Arya|Arya]] 18:27, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

:Without seeing the code you are using it is difficult for me to know, but I would guess that you are inputting the file name incorrectly. Files in infoboxes takes the form like this: <nowiki>[[File:FILENAME|250px]]</nowiki>. Thumbnails in the body of an article tend to look like this: <nowiki>[[File:FILENAME|thumb|right|CAPTION]]</nowiki>. Take a look at [[Help:Images]]. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:30, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

::Thanks Mith. I don't know exactly what I was doing wrong, and because I didn't take a screen-shot, it shall always remain a mystery (though not one I shall be very worried about now I have stopped making the mistake). Thanks as always, [[User:Arya|Arya]] 07:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

==Genealogy==
Hello Mith. I have been getting use to making family tree's on TG but I have come across a problem. When I want to expand a family tree in the x direction, I can't figure out the code to do it. I looked at the Baggins family tree for an example of x scrolling and I found right before you write familytree/start, there is a line of code telling the tree to overflow to the right if it can't fit within the boundary. When I copy and paste that line into my family tree exactly like it is in the Baggins tree, it doesn't overflow to the right. All I am wondering is what I am missing or if I'm doing something incorrectly. This would be a massive help. {{unsigned|Ríë}}

:Could you paste here the code you are using so I can take a look at it? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

::< div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;" > I had to put spaces between the <_d and "_> so the command wouldn't run. {{unsigned|Ríë}}

:::There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that. Are you remembering to put <nowiki></div></nowiki> after <nowiki>{{familytree/end}}</nowiki> at the end of the template?
:::By the way you can use <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki></nowiki> to include coding you don't want to actually process. And to sign your posts just type "<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>" at the end. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

::::Thanks so much. I forgot to add in <nowiki></div></nowiki>. "[[User:Ríë|Ríë]] 14:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)"

== Tweaking LOTRO information ==

Thanks for fixing my errors, sorry for messing up in the capitalization of 'adaptations.' I have some questions. Fitst, could you help me with citing information about Earnur in the Mordirith article if that is necessary? Also I noticed you put names from the game in quotes, could you explain that? Maybe I missed something in the style guide. Finally, I'm uncertain about when to use in-universe vs. out-of-universe voice and past tense vs. present tense in the Portrayal in Adaptations sections. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 19:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

:With references you will need to cite third-party websites (such as IGN) using the [[Template:Webcite|webcite template]]. I put in quotemarks all the invented characters and locations so it was more obvious that they weren't borrowed characters from Tolkien's universe; but you are right this isn't in the Style Guide. Portrayal in adaptations sections (the issue was more your spelling "adapations") should be descriptive and so have an "out-of-universe" voice in my view; preferably the past tense. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 23:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

::Oh, I never noticed the spelling mistake. Thanks for catching that. For the [[Mordirith]] article I meant to ask for help citing the bit from the books about Eärnur, but I found it. For my LOTRO sources, I use the LOTRO wiki when I can, otherwise I look for it in the game myself, and when I can I check both. Is there a way I can cite the game directly, similarly to how the [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages] cite the Elder Scrolls games? I also noticed you removed the category I put into [[Arnach]], if it is a location in LOTRO is it not appropriate to categorize it if it's also categorized as a word? I don't think the city in the game is significant enough for its own article. I wish there was a place on the wiki to write about the events and people from the game from an in-universe perspective, though. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 03:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::PS: On an unrelated note, what's the deal with the guy who keeps making sockpuppets to make lots of very minor edits? Seems very odd to me. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]]

:::I'm not entirely sure you can cite the books for a character that is massively changes for the game. You can't cite another wiki; we don't have a reference template for LOTRO because I don't know enough about the game in order to be able to reference it - is there a a way I can understand the structure of quests and epic books and things like that? The Lord of the Rings Online locations category is for locations invented for the game. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:42, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

::::Ah, I only cited the information that actually came from the books - that is that [[Eärnur]] was challenged twice by the [[Witch-king]], the second time he went to [[Minas Morgul]] and was never heard from again. Don't worry, I got that part figured out now. [[Arnach]] is a location invented for the game, it is the capital city of [[Lossarnach]]. Epic books are just a way of categorizing the Epic Series, the quests that tell the main storyline of the game. Most of the quests in the game are categorized under the region they are found in. In the game, I get most of the information from the dialogue windows NPCs have when talking to them for quests, the deed log, and the game map. I can take some screenshots later if that would help you get a better idea of it. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 12:54, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

::::Also, I'll try to follow your advice about using past tense, but it's tricky when describing ongoing parts of the game. My best idea is to use present tense for persistent parts of the game and past tense when describing lore and events from the game, if that makes sense. For example "Dol Amroth '''is''' a city in Western Gondor. It '''was''' blockaded by corsairs." How does that sound? [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 13:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::I'd prefer the past tense. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::Sorry, I'm fixing it. There's also the other stuff I was talking about up there, when you're not busy. Thanks. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 22:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey Mith I don't mean to be a bother but why did you undo my edit about the North Downs' portrayal in LOTRO? I put some work into that. If it's about sources, I'm sorry if I'm getting ahead of myself. I started a forum post asking for help with that. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 13:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

:It was too much for one adaptation; we aren't a LOTRO wiki, we're a Tolkien wiki - I thought the length of the section was disproportionate. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

::I suppose you are right. I'm still disappointed, though. I really want a place for articles about all the lore the game adds.

::There is the Lotro-wiki, but that is mostly written in a gamer perspective ("Do this in that quest, do that in this instance") and the lore bits are scattered around in no organized way. Besides, I think spoilers would be more of an issue there. Someone might want to look up the fight against Mordirith but not see the spoilers about his other identities.

::Then there is lotr.wikia.com, but... I don't know. Something I don't like about it as much, it seems less professionally done. Too based on the movies, and to use the North Downs as an example I'm pretty sure someone put their own fanon on that page. ...I suppose that's all the more reason to work there, it's just discouraging when the other wikis are such a mess. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 13:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

== Creating a Page ==

How do I create a Page? I am trying to create one for myself, but I do not understand how to do it. Please help. {{unsigned|Lúthien Lossëhelin}}

:Search for the article you want to create, if it doesn't already exist you'll get a message 'Create the page "XXX" on this wiki!' - just click on "XXX" to create it. If you want to create your userpage (i.e. [[User:Lúthien Lossëhelin]]), click on Lúthien Lossëhelin on the menu on the left-hand side under "Personal Tools". --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

== Valandil ==

Wow, that's a nice homecoming. I come home from San Fran and the first thing I have to do is clean up a ton of bile from Mammoth.

I probably should've mentioned being AFK for a week. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

:I've been at [[Oxonmoot 2015]]! But, to be fair, I have done an awful lot of clearing his stuff up myself over the last few months! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:10, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

== Woolly Mammoth ==
To [[User:Ederchil]] and [[User:Mith]] - wouldn't it be much easier for you to unblock me than to constantly tidy up my "mess" - I have much to contribute to this wiki - and, as I said before, I SINCERELY apologize for any insult made to any of you, especially to [[User:Mith]].

From a more practical perspective, it would be good for you to unblock me - of course, if you do not want to clear up the mess that will be gathering in the following years - I am not a madman - I simply feel insulted by your behavior - I would like to edit this wiki - as I no doubt showed before - and it would be to your well-being (and to the well-being of this site) if I would continue editing this Wiki without any further hindrance.

As for the images that I uploaded - I have proof that the permission was granted - although I have not been able to present the evidence to you - but if you unblock me I will - the visual representation of [[Tolkien]]'s works is to me, at least, an important aspect of his work. That is the reason I am hellbent on including the images, and I spend a lot of time on DevinatArt searching for Tolkien related art, and I am in good relation to other members of that community. This is all for me at the time - and I hope you will reconsider the ban.

Respectfully - Woolly Mammoth! [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] 20:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

:No, it wouldn't be easier. Even with your sockpuppets you are continuing to display the behaviour for which you were banned, further proving why you were banned in the first place. Nor am I going to unblock you under threat of creating further mess over the following years. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

==Another Thing==
I will NOT post any other images, nor will I edit any page without your consent - the fact that I made so many sock-puppets was only because I could not contact [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] and reconsider my ban - and I am sorry if you had to clear up my mess (although it was not all mess) - in any case - I WANT TO MAKE THIS SITE AS GOOD AS IT CAN BE - I cannot alter my past relations with the administrators on this site, but I DO hope I can smooth things with you. [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] 21:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Also...although [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] is, ironically, another sock-puppet, I could not have thought of a better way to represent my thoughts to you - so I will, without any guile, sign my post with - [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]]

:You already have edited hundreds of pages without our consent. Prove you words and don't make any edits. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Have my edits been so horrible as to have you chiding me? Nonetheless, concerning the images I have been uploading - I have proof:

[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Evidence_of_Copyright.png|Evidence of Copyright.]

All those wonderful art is being unjustly jettisoned - simply because I was not courteous to you. If you would let me upload those images I will leave this site forever - and I mean it. [[User:Henry|Henry]] 05:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC) (Woolly Mammoth)

P.S. Why have you deleted my articles on Éadweard and Alfred the Great, etc. They have DO have a place in the in-universe world of Middle-earth - therefore, they are valid, as is Aelfwine. Although they are historical figures, they are in contact and converse with the main characters in the Aelfwine saga. [[User:Henry|Henry]] 08:02, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Tulkastor

2015-09-16T06:55:32Z

Henry:

{{noldor infobox
| image=
| name=Tulkastor
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=[[Vairë (wife of Lindo)|Vairë]]</br>Unnamed child (parent of [[Naimi]])<ref>{{LT2|VI}}, p. 290</ref>
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Tulkastor''' was the father of [[Vairë]], an [[Elf]] of [[Tol Eressëa]], and the wife of [[Lindo]], the keeper of the [[Cottage of Lost Play]].<ref>{{LT1|I}}, p. 16</ref>

== Genealogy ==
<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| | | WOD | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |WOD=[[wikipedia:Odin|Wóden]]}}
{{familytree| | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | HED | | | | | | | | TUL | | | | VAL | |HED=[[Heden]]|TUL='''TULKASTOR'''|VAL=[[Valwë]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | |}}
{{familytree| BEO | | EOH | | | | SIB | | VAI |~| LIN | |BEO=[[Beorn (son of Heden)|Beorn]]|EOH=[[Eoh]]|SIB=''unknown</br>sibling''|VAI=[[Vairë (wife of Lindo)|Vairë]]|LIN=[[Lindo]]}}
{{familytree| | | | | |!| | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| CWE |y| ERI |~|~|y| NAI | | | | | | | | | |CWE=[[Cwén]]|ERI=[[Eriol]]|NAI=[[Naimi]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| HEN | | HOR | | HEO | | | | | | | | | | | |HEN=[[wikipedia:Hengist and Horsa|Hengest]]|HOR=[[wikipedia:Hengist and Horsa|Horsa]]|HEO=[[Heorrenda]]}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>

== Other Versions of the Legendarium ==
Originally the name of the character was '''Turenbor''', later changed to '''Tulkassë''' and finally to Tulkastor.<ref>{{LT1|In}}, p. 22</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Elves]]

Tulkastor

2015-09-16T06:55:06Z

Henry: Undo revision 279509 by Henry (talk)

{{elves infobox
| image=
| name=Tulkastor
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
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| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=[[Vairë (wife of Lindo)|Vairë]]</br>Unnamed child (parent of [[Naimi]])<ref>{{LT2|VI}}, p. 290</ref>
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Tulkastor''' was the father of [[Vairë]], an [[Elf]] of [[Tol Eressëa]], and the wife of [[Lindo]], the keeper of the [[Cottage of Lost Play]].<ref>{{LT1|I}}, p. 16</ref>

== Genealogy ==
<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| | | WOD | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |WOD=[[wikipedia:Odin|Wóden]]}}
{{familytree| | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | HED | | | | | | | | TUL | | | | VAL | |HED=[[Heden]]|TUL='''TULKASTOR'''|VAL=[[Valwë]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | |}}
{{familytree| BEO | | EOH | | | | SIB | | VAI |~| LIN | |BEO=[[Beorn (son of Heden)|Beorn]]|EOH=[[Eoh]]|SIB=''unknown</br>sibling''|VAI=[[Vairë (wife of Lindo)|Vairë]]|LIN=[[Lindo]]}}
{{familytree| | | | | |!| | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| CWE |y| ERI |~|~|y| NAI | | | | | | | | | |CWE=[[Cwén]]|ERI=[[Eriol]]|NAI=[[Naimi]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| HEN | | HOR | | HEO | | | | | | | | | | | |HEN=[[wikipedia:Hengist and Horsa|Hengest]]|HOR=[[wikipedia:Hengist and Horsa|Horsa]]|HEO=[[Heorrenda]]}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>

== Other Versions of the Legendarium ==
Originally the name of the character was '''Turenbor''', later changed to '''Tulkassë''' and finally to Tulkastor.<ref>{{LT1|In}}, p. 22</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Elves]]

Tulkastor

2015-09-16T06:53:36Z

Henry:

Valwë

2015-09-16T06:51:59Z

Henry:

{{noldor infobox
| image=
| name=Valwë
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=[[Lindo]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Valwë''' was the father of [[Lindo]], the keeper of the [[Cottage of Lost Play]] on [[Tol Eressëa]].<ref>{{LT1|I}}, p. 16 ff</ref><ref>{{LT2|IIIn}}, p. 219</ref>

== Etymology ==
''Valwë'' is a [[Qenya]] name. The [[Gnomish]] version of the name was ''Gwalweg''. [[Patrick H. Wynne]] has suggested that both appear to mean "the happy (or fortunate) one".<ref>{{PE|15}}, pp. 7, 10</ref>

== Genealogy ==
<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| | | WOD | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |WOD=[[wikipedia:Odin|Wóden]]}}
{{familytree| | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | HED | | | | | | | | TUL | | | | VAL | |HED=[[Heden]]|TUL=[[Tulkastor]]|VAL='''VALWË'''}}
{{familytree| |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | |}}
{{familytree| BEO | | EOH | | | | SIB | | VAI |~| LIN | |BEO=[[Beorn (son of Heden)|Beorn]]|EOH=[[Eoh]]|SIB=''unknown</br>sibling''|VAI=[[Vairë (wife of Lindo)|Vairë]]|LIN=[[Lindo]]}}
{{familytree| | | | | |!| | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| CWE |y| ERI |~|~|y| NAI | | | | | | | | | |CWE=[[Cwén]]|ERI=[[Eriol]]|NAI=[[Naimi]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| HEN | | HOR | | HEO | | | | | | | | | | | |HEN=[[wikipedia:Hengist and Horsa|Hengest]]|HOR=[[wikipedia:Hengist and Horsa|Horsa]]|HEO=[[Heorrenda]]}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>
{{references}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Valwe}}
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Elves]]
[[Category:Qenya names]]

Nuin

2015-09-16T06:44:12Z

Henry:

{{avari infobox
| image=
| name=Nuin
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Cuiviénen]]
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| sailedwest=
| sailedfrom=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| heritage=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Nuin''' was one of the [[Hisildi]], the [[Dark Elves]] who were ruled by the mysterious [[Sprites|fay]] known as [[Thû|Tu or Tuvon]] in the early writings of ''[[The Book of the Lost Tales]]''.

== History ==
Nuin is said to be very wise and loved to travel with his folk. Once he wandered far to the east of [[Palisor]] until curiosity led him to a strange place, with a mountainous wall. He found a passage which led to a valley inside a mountainous circle, [[Murmenalda]], the Vale of Sleep. There he saw sleeping forms, others alone, other entangled into the arms of others. Frightened, he went back to Tu and told his tale, and Tu replied him that they were the [[Men|Younger]] [[Children of Iluvatar]].<ref>{{LT1|X}}</ref>

The story, known as "Gilfanon's Tale", stops and its development is known only from outlines. According to them, Tu warned Nuin that it was not yet the time of Men to wake yet as they needed light, but Nuin visited the valley often and pondered on the figures. Accidentaly he stumbled against a sleeper who stirred, and then he was overcome with curiosity and awoke the first pair of [[Men]], [[Ermon]] and [[Elmir]], right before the first rising of the [[Sun]] from the [[West]]. Men were dumb and frightened, but Nuin taught them speech, some [[Ilkorin]] tongue, and thus was the '''Father of Speech'''. In another note, Nuin fights alongside Ermon in a fight against [[Fangli]] but he is killed by [[Goblins]], a result of the betraying of Men.<ref>{{LT1|Xn}}</ref>

[[Christopher Tolkien]] laments that "Gilfanon's Tale" remained unfinished and wondered whether his father consciously rejected the concepts of the story outright, or left it un hiatus, until his ideas were replaced by those of the later ''[[Silmarillion]]'' ([[Of Men]]).

== External links ==
*[http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/loback/firstmen.jpg Awakening of the First Men] - Illustration by [[Tom Loback]]

{{references}}
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Elves]]

Nurwë

2015-09-16T06:43:20Z

Henry:

{{Disputedcanon}}
{{avari infobox
| image=
| name=Nurwë
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=Leader of the [[Avari]]
| location=[[Cuiviénen]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Common Eldarin]]
| birth=during the [[Years of the Trees]]
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Nurwë''' was one of the leaders of the [[Avari]], along with [[Morwë]], those of the [[Elves]] who refused the summons of [[Oromë]]. Instead of opting to travel to [[Aman]], they remained at [[Cuiviénen]] with half of the [[Tatyar]] (the second clan who later became known as the [[Noldor]]) and a third of the [[Nelyar]] (the third clan, later known as the [[Teleri]]).<ref>{{AA}}</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Avari]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]

Morwë

2015-09-16T06:42:51Z

Henry:

{{Disputedcanon}}
{{avari infobox
| image=
| name=Morwë
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=Leader of the [[Avari]]
| location=[[Cuiviénen]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Common Eldarin]]
| birth=during the [[Years of the Trees]]
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Morwë''' was one of the leaders of the [[Avari]], along with [[Nurwë]], those of the [[Elves]] who refused the summons of [[Oromë]]. Instead of opting to travel to [[Aman]], they remained at [[Cuiviénen]] with half of the [[Tatyar]] (the second clan who later became known as the [[Noldor]]) and a third of the [[Nelyar]] (the third clan, later known as the [[Teleri]]).<ref>{{AA}}</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Avari]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]

Romestamo

2015-09-16T06:18:34Z

Henry: Redirected page to Rómestámo

#REDIRECT [[Rómestámo]]

Blue Wizards

2015-09-16T06:17:48Z

Henry: Redirected page to Morinehtar

#REDIRECT [[Morinehtar]]

User talk:Mith/2015

2015-09-16T06:07:56Z

Henry:

User talk:Mith/2015

2015-09-16T05:46:06Z

Henry:

{{talkarchive|2006|2007|2008|2009|2010|2011|2012|2013|2014}}
<table style="border: 1px solid #c0c090; background-color: #f8eaba; width:80%; margin-left: auto; margin-right:auto;"><tr><td rowspan="2">[[Image:Nuvola apps edu languages.png|none|50px|link=]]</td><td><div id="talk" style="text-align: center; padding: 5px; clear: both;><big>'''''Welcome to [[User:Mith|Mith]]'s talk page.'''''</big></div></td></tr><tr><td><ul><li>Please [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} post your new topic at the ''bottom''] of this page, including a '''<nowiki>==Descriptive heading==</nowiki>'''.</li><li>You should sign and date your posts by inserting "'''<span style="letter-spacing:.2em;"><nowiki>~~</nowiki>~~</span>'''" at the end of them.</li><li>Please indent your posts with "''':'''" if replying to an existing topic (or "'''::'''" if replying to a reply, etc.).</li><li>I will generally respond ''here'' to comments that are posted here, rather than replying via your talk page (or the article talk page, if you are writing to me about an article), so you may want to [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=watch}} watch this page].</li><li>If I have left a message on ''your'' talk page, please continue the discussion there; '''DO NOT''' reply here. This is ensure that discussions do not become fragmented over several talk pages.</li></ul>[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} '''⇒ Start a new talk topic.''']</td></tr></table>

== Hans-Ulrich Möhring ==

Hey Mith! I saw, that you deleted the article about the German translator Hans-Ulrich Möhring (''The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún'') with the comment ''"Just not notable enough"''. Möhring was now responsible for the German translation of another posthum released work. ''The Fall of Arthur'' will be published under the title ''König Arthurs Untergang'' on 21 March, 2015 in Germany, translated by Hans-Ulrich Möhring. I think, that two translations of complex lyrics by J.R.R. Tolkien are enough to legitimate the existence of an article about him. What do you think? --[[User:Sigismond|Sigismond]] 09:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

:For me, no (although others might take a different view). We have a painful habit on TG of creating articles about individuals which are essentially one line: "X is a Y who worked on Z." Is there anything (verifiable) to say about Möhring as translator of ''Sigurd and Gudrún'' and ''The Fall of Arthur'' beyond the fact that he translated them? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

::I see what you mean. To write something about his translation work on ''The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún'' (in my opinion) would make no sense in an English Wiki, so the only mentionable point would be the fact, that Möhring corresponded with Tom Shippey while translating. If you think, that the article is of no importance for Tolkien Gateway, then it's ok. I just wanted to know the reasons. --[[User:Sigismond|Sigismond]] 09:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

:::If he'd corresponded with Tolkien himself then that would put him in a different category, in my view. My fear is having an article that essentially doesn't really tell the reader anything. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

== Page merging question ==

Hey Mith, I went ahead and tackled merging [[Sea-elves]] into [[Teleri]]. I wasn't sure if my method of merging the pages was right: I copied the wiki-edit text to the other page and edited it some, then marked the original page for deletion. I changed the links that lead to Sea-elves to [[Falmari]] or Teleri where needed. I wasn't sure if this was good or if I needed to do anything else/something different. [[User:Xsys|xsys]] 19:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

:Hi xsys, and welcome to Tolkien Gateway! To merge a page we transfer the appropriate content and turn the page into a redirect (i.e. we don't mark it for deletion) - the reason for this is so people who search for "Sea-elves" will be taken to the Teleri page, for example. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

::That makes sense. Thanks! [[User:Xsys|xsys]] 20:33, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

==Images==

Good evening. This is [[User talk:2.84.120.176|User2.84.120.176]]. Could you upload upload more images on the page [[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]];I dont have this ability, but you do have this ability. Upload and put these NEW images on the Category:Images from The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.OK; {{unsignedanon|2.84.120.176}}

:Thanks for getting in touch. Remembering that the DVD of ''The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies'' isn't out yet (and therefore screencaps aren't so easy to obtain), do you have any particular images in mind? Or, perhaps you could [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup sign up to Tolkien Gateway] and upload them yourself? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:02, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

==Reminding==

Hi Mith, I wonder if you could please check your email? I've sent you a request a week ago :) [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 10:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:I have received the email but I passed it onto [[User:Hyarion]] to respond. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot. Anyway, I hope that he could reply to us soon, since, as it seems, he does not appear frequently. So here I put this forward again, mean not in the slightest to bother you. We are eager to make contact with Alan Lee, so I would be appreciated if you could give me the email address of him. [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 16:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I generally don't give out other people's email addresses without their permission. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I must apologize for my rudeness and discourtesy. [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 23:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

== Quick Question ==

How do you create separate pages on a page that you are creating? {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

:I don't understand what you mean. Create a separate page on a page you are creating? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

::Sort of, you know on a user page how you can create the different subtitles for your pages. I am wondering how to do that. {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

:::The same as you would create any other page: simply type the pagename as a URL and then press "create an article with that title". --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

::::Oh, thanks {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

==Mithrellas==

May I ask why have you deleted the infobox? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 09:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:You're going to need to be more specific: what infobox have I deleted? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::My mistake. I have just realized you reverted the edits to the period where there was no infobox. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::If you're going to insist on making three, four, five, six - and one occasion, nine! - consecutive edits, things like this will happen. Apologies for reverting the infobox as well but please can you try to learn to use the "Show preview" button and plan you edits. Nine small edits to an article are not necessary. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I take it back. Your record is actually 10 edits in a row ([[Tréowine]]). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::I know how to use the "Show preview" very well...But like I said, it often happens that I forget to include something in an article and have to edit it again. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::::You forget nine times in a row? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::::Maybe "forget" is a wrong word (although not completely). "Change my mind" would be a more appropriate word. Besides, you are editing for years and I, myself, only for a couple of days. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::::::Indeed. I think we're all aware of that! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

==Copyright for images==

Please, how can I get the copyright for an image that I want to upload, but that isn't already in the "Category:Evidence of permission granted by copyright holders" section? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:You will need to contact the copyright-holder and ask for their permission. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::By e-mail solely? Because I have already contacted a number of artists and they all gave permission. Technicality is my main issue in this matter. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::There needs to be some evidence in case it's ever challenged. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::Here's one: http://www.deviantart.com/messages/notes/#1_0/1281622023 [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 18:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

==Obituary title==

''Henry Bradley: 3 Dec., 1845-23 May, 1923'' is the official title of the obituary published in [[Bulletin of the Modern Humanities Research Association 20]] . All references I consulted used this title.So I think the article it should remain with that name. {{unsigned|Sigurd}}

:Absolutely not. Aside from the fact I don't think we need an article for an obituary written for someone on whom we have [[Henry Bradley|a very short article]] (we'd end up with a longer article on the obituary than on the man himself!), naming the article "''Henry Bradley: 3 Dec., 1845-23 May, 1923''" would be ridiculous verbose and unwieldy. If an article must be made it should be something like "Obituary for Henry Bradley", but I would be against its creation. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

::I dont think ridiculous since Tolkien himself give the name to the article. Someone put the same name in reference of that Bulletin 1923 here:[[http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Index:Writings_by_J.R.R._Tolkien Index:Writings_by_J.R.R._Tolkien]].And other books I read use the same name.In addition, the obituary contains a poem written by Tolkien in Old English. And also this obituary has his own topic on [[J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment]]([[User:Sigurd|Sigurd]] 21:24, 1 June 2015 (UTC))

:::Did Tolkien give the title, or was that the editor? In any case, it is a title of a printed obituary, not an online webpage. Any article title we choose would also be the URL. We aren't the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia and our usage should not - and does not - reflect what they have done. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

==Ninni-V==
Can you please rename the pictures of Ninni-V to Antonio Vinci. By the request of the artist. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:Can you please email me where the artists have granted their permission for their work to be hosted on Tolkien Gateway? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::I have asked the permission via note on DeviantArt. What would you like me to do? You cannot access the notes considering they are private and cannot be read unless one is logged in. So....??? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::{{blockquote|Also, as a bit of housekeeping, can you forward to me either a copy of the emails from the artists '''or a screenprint''' so we have a bit of a proof - my email is {{nospam|mith|tolkiengateway.net}}. Cheers --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)<br/><br/>Yes, I will. But just one reminder: all the images by '''VunastiMamut''' are mine. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)|[[User talk:Woolly Mammoth]]}}

:::--{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I have send you an email with a screen print for the said artist. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Thanks. What about the others? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::I will. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:26, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::I have. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

==Vandalism==

Mith, we have a problem. There is this random guy going by the name of Webbane who is destroying stuff right now! [[User:Bane|Bane]]

:He has deleted off my page, yours, Woolly's, the Forum and a load of paragraphs from articles. Can we remove his account or something??? {{unsigned|Arya}}

::It's all been dealt with now. Isn't it interesting how a User:Bane and a User:Webbane pop up on the same night! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You aren't blaming Bane though [[User:Arya|Arya]]

==Why are you deleting MY images??==
Those images that you have deleted are my artwork! Is this vandalism or what???? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

:I thought you said that they were all by other people - apologies. Although your picture of Uldor is [http://qnwn.net/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=116&Itemid=110&page=2 remarkably similar to one by James Adams] (also known as Sporeboy)? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

::Maybe because I borrowed the pictures from some of (with permission, which I have sent you by email) those guys, aye? Some of the pictures are by other people, AND some of them are mine (namely Elmo, Bór, Uldor, Formenos!). You are behaving like an asshole and you have no right (beside being an administrator), absolutely no right to delete those images!

:::Do not speak to me like that again. As an administrator I have every right to delete any image on this website whether it be yours or anyone else's.

:::So, your image of Uldor. Did you "borrow" the one from Sporeboy? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I will speak as I want to! And, considering your image of Uldor I granted the permission to use my artwork. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::You will be civil on this wiki or you will leave. Sporeboy gave you permission to amend his image? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

==Gaurwaith==
Hello! I know I posted this before on the Template:Gaurwaith talk page, but seriously, why isn't [[Andvír]] there? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 08:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:Fun fact: did you know there's only ever been [[Forum:Ilúvatar infobox|one other user in Tolkien Gateway's 10-year history to use the phrase "but seriously"]]? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:53, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::You did not answer my question. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:13, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::Because I haven't finished the template yet (which is why it hasn't been added to any article). Perhaps you should wait and see first before discussing the matter on two talk pages. Did you know about my fun fact? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::::"But seriously"? I reckon you must have spent years searching through every word and sentence on this page to come to that conclusion. And besides, what does that have to do with me? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Nope - took me about 10 seconds. OK. I'll call it. In my view you are a sockpuppet for Woolly Mammoth. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::First of all: how did you even come to the conclusion that I'm an alter ego of some other user? I have just signed up and I am already being accused of being a "sockpuppet" for some guy that I have never heard of until now. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 10:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::There are quite a number of signs; we'll be checking IPs later today. If you aren't WM I do sincerely apologise as this probably makes me look like a bit of a nutter; but if you are WM I have to admit that I am actually a bit impressed by your commitment to Tolkien Gateway that you have created a sockpuppet in order to carry on doing good work. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

==Music==
Do we have a license to use [[Tolkien Ensemble]]'s songs on this site? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 08:07, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:No. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::Laconic answer...Can we get one? There are images on this site with licenses ranging from artists of Deviantart, to artists of likes of [[John Howe]], [[Alan Lee]] and [[Ted Nasmith]]. Why not include music in this site? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::I doubt it. It's not something I personally see as desirable, either. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:49, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::::Have you heard the "Burial Song of Théoden" by Tolkien Ensemble? I think the visitors of this site should be entitled to hear this masterpiece (in my opinion). In any case...I will contact the Tolkien Ensemble myself. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::And yes...one more thing...What about this WM thing you were talking about? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::You would have to discuss this with other users (and admins) of this site first before initiating contact with them and seeking to put their songs this website. I personally don't think it would be appropriate for TG to host songs that people should be paying for. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::You did not answer my question! What about this WM thing I am accused!? I find myself insulted for, coinsidentally , wanting to expand this wiki as much as it is possible. And for your information, I am an editor on Wikipedia. And I am not talking about paying anything. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 10:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::No, but by having their songs on our website we are preventing them from earning money from them. I'm not convinced that that is right. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

==Pagination==
I have hi-res scans of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' on my computer. And I have seen before that pagination can be a sort of a mess, when multiple versions of the same book collide together. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 13:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:The pagination for ''The History of Middle-earth'' series is pretty much consistent (which is why we reference pages for those when we don't for ''The Lord of the Rings''). How long did it take you to scan them? What is the edition of your hardcopy? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:40, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::Sale of this book without a front cover may be unauthorized. If this book is coverless, it may have been reported to the publisher as “unsold or destroyed” and neither the author nor the publisher may have received payment for it.

::A Del Rey® Book Published by The Ballantine Publishing Group

::Copyright © 1983 by Frank Richard Williamson and Christopher Reuel Tolkien as Executors of the Estate of J. R. R. Tolkien

::All rights reserved under International and Pan-American Copyright Conventions.

::Published in the United States by The Ballantine Publishing Group, a division of Random House, Inc., New York.

::Del Rey and colophon are registered trademarks of Random House, Inc.www.delreydigital.com

::Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 83-12782

::ISBN 0-345-37521-1

::First published in the United States by Houghton Mifflin Company.

::Reprinted by special arrangement with Houghton Mifflin Company.

::Manufactured in the United States of America

::First Ballantine Books Edition: June 1992

::OPM 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 13:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

==Picture==
Hey, I noticed while skipping through pages that the picture for the page The Road Goes Ever On and On: The Maps of Tolkien's Middle Earth has nothing to do with the theme of the page as far as I can see. Yes, it's a picture of a book of maps, but it's not a picture of the book of maps we are talking about. I am still an utter newbie with this programing, and have no idea how to change the picture to a more accurate one. [[User:Arya|Arya]]

:Done. [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=The_Road_Goes_Ever_On_and_On:_The_Map_of_Tolkien%27s_Middle-earth&curid=35192&diff=272100&oldid=214177 Look at the change I've made] to see how the coding works. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:52, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

::Good that. Will be changing quite a few pics myself, correct me if you don't think that they are right. The titles match!!! :) [[User:Arya|Arya]]

==Elendilmir==

How should we address the confusion surrounding the number and fates of the different incarnations of the Elendilmir? See my note on the talk page of the relevant entry. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 06:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

:By discussing it on that article's talk page, and '''not''' on my talk page. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:21, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

::Sorry if I bothered you. This was literally the first interaction I've had with anyone on this site. I wasn't aware that I was doing something wrong. I asked you because the post on my talk page told me to bring any questions to you. I won't make the same mistake again. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 04:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

:::A user's talk page is for them specifically to respond (i.e. an issue directly for that user); an article's talk page is for discussion about that article (i.e. for anyone in the community). The problem with having a conversation elsewhere is that the discussion/decisions are divorced from the article - in future months/years other users won't think to look at my talk page to find out why a decision was made. It's simply good housekeeping to keep everything together with the article.
:::The welcome message on your talk page wasn't actually written by me (and I've been meaning to change it for a while), but there's a complicated technical reason why [[User:Mithbot|my bot]] has to leave the message. But when it comes to "''If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the Council forums or ask me on my talk page.''" the implication - which probably should be clearer - is that "any questions" are about the site/editing/policy/style as opposed to the future of individual articles.
:::I have obviously seen your contributions on both [[User talk:WadCheber#Welcome!|your own]] and [[User talk:Hyarion#Greeting new users|Hyarion's]] talk pages - I shall respond to it all here to prevent fragmentation of the conversation. I think "''After looking through the other entries in his talk page, I got the impression that this is pretty much par for the course with him.''" is unfair - there is only one user, WoollyMammoth, I was very firm with; he had made a lot of edits and was a particularly confrontational user who was [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block subsequently banned by another admin for his behaviour]. That does not indicate someone who "''is determined to be laconic and/or borderline hostile''" or who intends to "''chase people away''".
:::Having said all the above, my previous message was obviously a curt one, for which I apologise; I shouldn't have been so short with you and should have explained the situation more thoughtfully. On this occasion I did bite the newbie - thank you for calling me out on it. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
:::: No problem. We all make little mistakes. Thank you for explaining the issue more clearly. WoollyMammoth sowed the wind, so he reaped the whirlwind. No fault on your part there. I was talking about other, less obvious instances in your interactions above, but there is nothing so far beyond the pale as to call your personal qualification as an admin into question. I was probably a bit overly defensive as well. Thanks again for the advice and explanation. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 22:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

::::In fact, I should probably apologize to you as well. I think I overreacted. I was having a bad day myself, and I took it out on you, with very little reason. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 00:06, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

:::::Great to have you aboard WadCheber! I'm glad we got everything cleared up. If you have any other questions or suggestions don't hesitate to let us know, we really appreciate the feedback. Oh, and if it makes you guys feel any better; I'm having a great week :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:51, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

==Pixels==
I've noticed that I can't put down some pics on articles. Once I type the info down that should put down an article and I tap the preview button, all i get is 250 pixels in red text. What does this mean? Is it that the picture doesn't fit or am I typing out the info wrong? P.S. No article was hurt in the experimentations of me. [[User:Arya|Arya]] 18:27, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

:Without seeing the code you are using it is difficult for me to know, but I would guess that you are inputting the file name incorrectly. Files in infoboxes takes the form like this: <nowiki>[[File:FILENAME|250px]]</nowiki>. Thumbnails in the body of an article tend to look like this: <nowiki>[[File:FILENAME|thumb|right|CAPTION]]</nowiki>. Take a look at [[Help:Images]]. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:30, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

::Thanks Mith. I don't know exactly what I was doing wrong, and because I didn't take a screen-shot, it shall always remain a mystery (though not one I shall be very worried about now I have stopped making the mistake). Thanks as always, [[User:Arya|Arya]] 07:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

==Genealogy==
Hello Mith. I have been getting use to making family tree's on TG but I have come across a problem. When I want to expand a family tree in the x direction, I can't figure out the code to do it. I looked at the Baggins family tree for an example of x scrolling and I found right before you write familytree/start, there is a line of code telling the tree to overflow to the right if it can't fit within the boundary. When I copy and paste that line into my family tree exactly like it is in the Baggins tree, it doesn't overflow to the right. All I am wondering is what I am missing or if I'm doing something incorrectly. This would be a massive help. {{unsigned|Ríë}}

:Could you paste here the code you are using so I can take a look at it? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

::< div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;" > I had to put spaces between the <_d and "_> so the command wouldn't run. {{unsigned|Ríë}}

:::There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that. Are you remembering to put <nowiki></div></nowiki> after <nowiki>{{familytree/end}}</nowiki> at the end of the template?
:::By the way you can use <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki></nowiki> to include coding you don't want to actually process. And to sign your posts just type "<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>" at the end. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

::::Thanks so much. I forgot to add in <nowiki></div></nowiki>. "[[User:Ríë|Ríë]] 14:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)"

== Tweaking LOTRO information ==

Thanks for fixing my errors, sorry for messing up in the capitalization of 'adaptations.' I have some questions. Fitst, could you help me with citing information about Earnur in the Mordirith article if that is necessary? Also I noticed you put names from the game in quotes, could you explain that? Maybe I missed something in the style guide. Finally, I'm uncertain about when to use in-universe vs. out-of-universe voice and past tense vs. present tense in the Portrayal in Adaptations sections. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 19:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

:With references you will need to cite third-party websites (such as IGN) using the [[Template:Webcite|webcite template]]. I put in quotemarks all the invented characters and locations so it was more obvious that they weren't borrowed characters from Tolkien's universe; but you are right this isn't in the Style Guide. Portrayal in adaptations sections (the issue was more your spelling "adapations") should be descriptive and so have an "out-of-universe" voice in my view; preferably the past tense. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 23:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

::Oh, I never noticed the spelling mistake. Thanks for catching that. For the [[Mordirith]] article I meant to ask for help citing the bit from the books about Eärnur, but I found it. For my LOTRO sources, I use the LOTRO wiki when I can, otherwise I look for it in the game myself, and when I can I check both. Is there a way I can cite the game directly, similarly to how the [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages] cite the Elder Scrolls games? I also noticed you removed the category I put into [[Arnach]], if it is a location in LOTRO is it not appropriate to categorize it if it's also categorized as a word? I don't think the city in the game is significant enough for its own article. I wish there was a place on the wiki to write about the events and people from the game from an in-universe perspective, though. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 03:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::PS: On an unrelated note, what's the deal with the guy who keeps making sockpuppets to make lots of very minor edits? Seems very odd to me. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]]

:::I'm not entirely sure you can cite the books for a character that is massively changes for the game. You can't cite another wiki; we don't have a reference template for LOTRO because I don't know enough about the game in order to be able to reference it - is there a a way I can understand the structure of quests and epic books and things like that? The Lord of the Rings Online locations category is for locations invented for the game. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:42, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

::::Ah, I only cited the information that actually came from the books - that is that [[Eärnur]] was challenged twice by the [[Witch-king]], the second time he went to [[Minas Morgul]] and was never heard from again. Don't worry, I got that part figured out now. [[Arnach]] is a location invented for the game, it is the capital city of [[Lossarnach]]. Epic books are just a way of categorizing the Epic Series, the quests that tell the main storyline of the game. Most of the quests in the game are categorized under the region they are found in. In the game, I get most of the information from the dialogue windows NPCs have when talking to them for quests, the deed log, and the game map. I can take some screenshots later if that would help you get a better idea of it. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 12:54, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

::::Also, I'll try to follow your advice about using past tense, but it's tricky when describing ongoing parts of the game. My best idea is to use present tense for persistent parts of the game and past tense when describing lore and events from the game, if that makes sense. For example "Dol Amroth '''is''' a city in Western Gondor. It '''was''' blockaded by corsairs." How does that sound? [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 13:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::I'd prefer the past tense. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::Sorry, I'm fixing it. There's also the other stuff I was talking about up there, when you're not busy. Thanks. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 22:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey Mith I don't mean to be a bother but why did you undo my edit about the North Downs' portrayal in LOTRO? I put some work into that. If it's about sources, I'm sorry if I'm getting ahead of myself. I started a forum post asking for help with that. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 13:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

:It was too much for one adaptation; we aren't a LOTRO wiki, we're a Tolkien wiki - I thought the length of the section was disproportionate. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

::I suppose you are right. I'm still disappointed, though. I really want a place for articles about all the lore the game adds.

::There is the Lotro-wiki, but that is mostly written in a gamer perspective ("Do this in that quest, do that in this instance") and the lore bits are scattered around in no organized way. Besides, I think spoilers would be more of an issue there. Someone might want to look up the fight against Mordirith but not see the spoilers about his other identities.

::Then there is lotr.wikia.com, but... I don't know. Something I don't like about it as much, it seems less professionally done. Too based on the movies, and to use the North Downs as an example I'm pretty sure someone put their own fanon on that page. ...I suppose that's all the more reason to work there, it's just discouraging when the other wikis are such a mess. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 13:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

== Creating a Page ==

How do I create a Page? I am trying to create one for myself, but I do not understand how to do it. Please help. {{unsigned|Lúthien Lossëhelin}}

:Search for the article you want to create, if it doesn't already exist you'll get a message 'Create the page "XXX" on this wiki!' - just click on "XXX" to create it. If you want to create your userpage (i.e. [[User:Lúthien Lossëhelin]]), click on Lúthien Lossëhelin on the menu on the left-hand side under "Personal Tools". --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

== Valandil ==

Wow, that's a nice homecoming. I come home from San Fran and the first thing I have to do is clean up a ton of bile from Mammoth.

I probably should've mentioned being AFK for a week. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

:I've been at [[Oxonmoot 2015]]! But, to be fair, I have done an awful lot of clearing his stuff up myself over the last few months! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:10, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

== Woolly Mammoth ==
To [[User:Ederchil]] and [[User:Mith]] - wouldn't it be much easier for you to unblock me than to constantly tidy up my "mess" - I have much to contribute to this wiki - and, as I said before, I SINCERELY apologize for any insult made to any of you, especially to [[User:Mith]].

From a more practical perspective, it would be good for you to unblock me - of course, if you do not want to clear up the mess that will be gathering in the following years - I am not a madman - I simply feel insulted by your behavior - I would like to edit this wiki - as I no doubt showed before - and it would be to your well-being (and to the well-being of this site) if I would continue editing this Wiki without any further hindrance.

As for the images that I uploaded - I have proof that the permission was granted - although I have not been able to present the evidence to you - but if you unblock me I will - the visual representation of [[Tolkien]]'s works is to me, at least, an important aspect of his work. That is the reason I am hellbent on including the images, and I spend a lot of time on DevinatArt searching for Tolkien related art, and I am in good relation to other members of that community. This is all for me at the time - and I hope you will reconsider the ban.

Respectfully - Woolly Mammoth! [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] 20:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

:No, it wouldn't be easier. Even with your sockpuppets you are continuing to display the behaviour for which you were banned, further proving why you were banned in the first place. Nor am I going to unblock you under threat of creating further mess over the following years. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

==Another Thing==
I will NOT post any other images, nor will I edit any page without your consent - the fact that I made so many sock-puppets was only because I could not contact [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] and reconsider my ban - and I am sorry if you had to clear up my mess (although it was not all mess) - in any case - I WANT TO MAKE THIS SITE AS GOOD AS IT CAN BE - I cannot alter my past relations with the administrators on this site, but I DO hope I can smooth things with you. [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] 21:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Also...although [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] is, ironically, another sock-puppet, I could not have thought of a better way to represent my thoughts to you - so I will, without any guile, sign my post with - [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]]

:You already have edited hundreds of pages without our consent. Prove you words and don't make any edits. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Have my edits been so horrible as to have you chiding me? Nonetheless, concerning the images I have been uploading - I have proof.

All those wonderful art is being unjustly jettisoned - simply because I was not courteous to you. If you would let me upload those images I will leave this site forever - and I mean it. [[User:Henry|Henry]] 05:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC) (Woolly Mammoth)

User talk:Mith/2015

2015-09-16T05:25:54Z

Henry:

{{talkarchive|2006|2007|2008|2009|2010|2011|2012|2013|2014}}
<table style="border: 1px solid #c0c090; background-color: #f8eaba; width:80%; margin-left: auto; margin-right:auto;"><tr><td rowspan="2">[[Image:Nuvola apps edu languages.png|none|50px|link=]]</td><td><div id="talk" style="text-align: center; padding: 5px; clear: both;><big>'''''Welcome to [[User:Mith|Mith]]'s talk page.'''''</big></div></td></tr><tr><td><ul><li>Please [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} post your new topic at the ''bottom''] of this page, including a '''<nowiki>==Descriptive heading==</nowiki>'''.</li><li>You should sign and date your posts by inserting "'''<span style="letter-spacing:.2em;"><nowiki>~~</nowiki>~~</span>'''" at the end of them.</li><li>Please indent your posts with "''':'''" if replying to an existing topic (or "'''::'''" if replying to a reply, etc.).</li><li>I will generally respond ''here'' to comments that are posted here, rather than replying via your talk page (or the article talk page, if you are writing to me about an article), so you may want to [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=watch}} watch this page].</li><li>If I have left a message on ''your'' talk page, please continue the discussion there; '''DO NOT''' reply here. This is ensure that discussions do not become fragmented over several talk pages.</li></ul>[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} '''⇒ Start a new talk topic.''']</td></tr></table>

== Hans-Ulrich Möhring ==

Hey Mith! I saw, that you deleted the article about the German translator Hans-Ulrich Möhring (''The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún'') with the comment ''"Just not notable enough"''. Möhring was now responsible for the German translation of another posthum released work. ''The Fall of Arthur'' will be published under the title ''König Arthurs Untergang'' on 21 March, 2015 in Germany, translated by Hans-Ulrich Möhring. I think, that two translations of complex lyrics by J.R.R. Tolkien are enough to legitimate the existence of an article about him. What do you think? --[[User:Sigismond|Sigismond]] 09:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

:For me, no (although others might take a different view). We have a painful habit on TG of creating articles about individuals which are essentially one line: "X is a Y who worked on Z." Is there anything (verifiable) to say about Möhring as translator of ''Sigurd and Gudrún'' and ''The Fall of Arthur'' beyond the fact that he translated them? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

::I see what you mean. To write something about his translation work on ''The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún'' (in my opinion) would make no sense in an English Wiki, so the only mentionable point would be the fact, that Möhring corresponded with Tom Shippey while translating. If you think, that the article is of no importance for Tolkien Gateway, then it's ok. I just wanted to know the reasons. --[[User:Sigismond|Sigismond]] 09:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

:::If he'd corresponded with Tolkien himself then that would put him in a different category, in my view. My fear is having an article that essentially doesn't really tell the reader anything. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

== Page merging question ==

Hey Mith, I went ahead and tackled merging [[Sea-elves]] into [[Teleri]]. I wasn't sure if my method of merging the pages was right: I copied the wiki-edit text to the other page and edited it some, then marked the original page for deletion. I changed the links that lead to Sea-elves to [[Falmari]] or Teleri where needed. I wasn't sure if this was good or if I needed to do anything else/something different. [[User:Xsys|xsys]] 19:39, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

:Hi xsys, and welcome to Tolkien Gateway! To merge a page we transfer the appropriate content and turn the page into a redirect (i.e. we don't mark it for deletion) - the reason for this is so people who search for "Sea-elves" will be taken to the Teleri page, for example. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

::That makes sense. Thanks! [[User:Xsys|xsys]] 20:33, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

==Images==

Good evening. This is [[User talk:2.84.120.176|User2.84.120.176]]. Could you upload upload more images on the page [[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]];I dont have this ability, but you do have this ability. Upload and put these NEW images on the Category:Images from The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.OK; {{unsignedanon|2.84.120.176}}

:Thanks for getting in touch. Remembering that the DVD of ''The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies'' isn't out yet (and therefore screencaps aren't so easy to obtain), do you have any particular images in mind? Or, perhaps you could [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup sign up to Tolkien Gateway] and upload them yourself? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:02, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

==Reminding==

Hi Mith, I wonder if you could please check your email? I've sent you a request a week ago :) [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 10:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:I have received the email but I passed it onto [[User:Hyarion]] to respond. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

::Thanks a lot. Anyway, I hope that he could reply to us soon, since, as it seems, he does not appear frequently. So here I put this forward again, mean not in the slightest to bother you. We are eager to make contact with Alan Lee, so I would be appreciated if you could give me the email address of him. [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 16:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I generally don't give out other people's email addresses without their permission. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I must apologize for my rudeness and discourtesy. [[User:Leopold Break|Leopold Break]] 23:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

== Quick Question ==

How do you create separate pages on a page that you are creating? {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

:I don't understand what you mean. Create a separate page on a page you are creating? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

::Sort of, you know on a user page how you can create the different subtitles for your pages. I am wondering how to do that. {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

:::The same as you would create any other page: simply type the pagename as a URL and then press "create an article with that title". --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

::::Oh, thanks {{unsigned|AragornElessar}}

==Mithrellas==

May I ask why have you deleted the infobox? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 09:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:You're going to need to be more specific: what infobox have I deleted? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::My mistake. I have just realized you reverted the edits to the period where there was no infobox. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::If you're going to insist on making three, four, five, six - and one occasion, nine! - consecutive edits, things like this will happen. Apologies for reverting the infobox as well but please can you try to learn to use the "Show preview" button and plan you edits. Nine small edits to an article are not necessary. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::I take it back. Your record is actually 10 edits in a row ([[Tréowine]]). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::I know how to use the "Show preview" very well...But like I said, it often happens that I forget to include something in an article and have to edit it again. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::::You forget nine times in a row? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::::Maybe "forget" is a wrong word (although not completely). "Change my mind" would be a more appropriate word. Besides, you are editing for years and I, myself, only for a couple of days. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::::::Indeed. I think we're all aware of that! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

==Copyright for images==

Please, how can I get the copyright for an image that I want to upload, but that isn't already in the "Category:Evidence of permission granted by copyright holders" section? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:You will need to contact the copyright-holder and ask for their permission. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::By e-mail solely? Because I have already contacted a number of artists and they all gave permission. Technicality is my main issue in this matter. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

:::There needs to be some evidence in case it's ever challenged. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

::::Here's one: http://www.deviantart.com/messages/notes/#1_0/1281622023 [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 18:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

==Obituary title==

''Henry Bradley: 3 Dec., 1845-23 May, 1923'' is the official title of the obituary published in [[Bulletin of the Modern Humanities Research Association 20]] . All references I consulted used this title.So I think the article it should remain with that name. {{unsigned|Sigurd}}

:Absolutely not. Aside from the fact I don't think we need an article for an obituary written for someone on whom we have [[Henry Bradley|a very short article]] (we'd end up with a longer article on the obituary than on the man himself!), naming the article "''Henry Bradley: 3 Dec., 1845-23 May, 1923''" would be ridiculous verbose and unwieldy. If an article must be made it should be something like "Obituary for Henry Bradley", but I would be against its creation. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

::I dont think ridiculous since Tolkien himself give the name to the article. Someone put the same name in reference of that Bulletin 1923 here:[[http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Index:Writings_by_J.R.R._Tolkien Index:Writings_by_J.R.R._Tolkien]].And other books I read use the same name.In addition, the obituary contains a poem written by Tolkien in Old English. And also this obituary has his own topic on [[J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment]]([[User:Sigurd|Sigurd]] 21:24, 1 June 2015 (UTC))

:::Did Tolkien give the title, or was that the editor? In any case, it is a title of a printed obituary, not an online webpage. Any article title we choose would also be the URL. We aren't the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia and our usage should not - and does not - reflect what they have done. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

==Ninni-V==
Can you please rename the pictures of Ninni-V to Antonio Vinci. By the request of the artist. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:Can you please email me where the artists have granted their permission for their work to be hosted on Tolkien Gateway? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::I have asked the permission via note on DeviantArt. What would you like me to do? You cannot access the notes considering they are private and cannot be read unless one is logged in. So....??? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::{{blockquote|Also, as a bit of housekeeping, can you forward to me either a copy of the emails from the artists '''or a screenprint''' so we have a bit of a proof - my email is {{nospam|mith|tolkiengateway.net}}. Cheers --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)<br/><br/>Yes, I will. But just one reminder: all the images by '''VunastiMamut''' are mine. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)|[[User talk:Woolly Mammoth]]}}

:::--{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:46, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I have send you an email with a screen print for the said artist. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Thanks. What about the others? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::I will. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 15:26, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::I have. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

==Vandalism==

Mith, we have a problem. There is this random guy going by the name of Webbane who is destroying stuff right now! [[User:Bane|Bane]]

:He has deleted off my page, yours, Woolly's, the Forum and a load of paragraphs from articles. Can we remove his account or something??? {{unsigned|Arya}}

::It's all been dealt with now. Isn't it interesting how a User:Bane and a User:Webbane pop up on the same night! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You aren't blaming Bane though [[User:Arya|Arya]]

==Why are you deleting MY images??==
Those images that you have deleted are my artwork! Is this vandalism or what???? [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

:I thought you said that they were all by other people - apologies. Although your picture of Uldor is [http://qnwn.net/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=116&Itemid=110&page=2 remarkably similar to one by James Adams] (also known as Sporeboy)? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

::Maybe because I borrowed the pictures from some of (with permission, which I have sent you by email) those guys, aye? Some of the pictures are by other people, AND some of them are mine (namely Elmo, Bór, Uldor, Formenos!). You are behaving like an asshole and you have no right (beside being an administrator), absolutely no right to delete those images!

:::Do not speak to me like that again. As an administrator I have every right to delete any image on this website whether it be yours or anyone else's.

:::So, your image of Uldor. Did you "borrow" the one from Sporeboy? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I will speak as I want to! And, considering your image of Uldor I granted the permission to use my artwork. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 14:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::You will be civil on this wiki or you will leave. Sporeboy gave you permission to amend his image? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

==Gaurwaith==
Hello! I know I posted this before on the Template:Gaurwaith talk page, but seriously, why isn't [[Andvír]] there? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 08:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:Fun fact: did you know there's only ever been [[Forum:Ilúvatar infobox|one other user in Tolkien Gateway's 10-year history to use the phrase "but seriously"]]? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:53, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::You did not answer my question. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:13, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::Because I haven't finished the template yet (which is why it hasn't been added to any article). Perhaps you should wait and see first before discussing the matter on two talk pages. Did you know about my fun fact? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::::"But seriously"? I reckon you must have spent years searching through every word and sentence on this page to come to that conclusion. And besides, what does that have to do with me? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Nope - took me about 10 seconds. OK. I'll call it. In my view you are a sockpuppet for Woolly Mammoth. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::First of all: how did you even come to the conclusion that I'm an alter ego of some other user? I have just signed up and I am already being accused of being a "sockpuppet" for some guy that I have never heard of until now. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 10:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::There are quite a number of signs; we'll be checking IPs later today. If you aren't WM I do sincerely apologise as this probably makes me look like a bit of a nutter; but if you are WM I have to admit that I am actually a bit impressed by your commitment to Tolkien Gateway that you have created a sockpuppet in order to carry on doing good work. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

==Music==
Do we have a license to use [[Tolkien Ensemble]]'s songs on this site? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 08:07, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:No. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::Laconic answer...Can we get one? There are images on this site with licenses ranging from artists of Deviantart, to artists of likes of [[John Howe]], [[Alan Lee]] and [[Ted Nasmith]]. Why not include music in this site? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::I doubt it. It's not something I personally see as desirable, either. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:49, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::::Have you heard the "Burial Song of Théoden" by Tolkien Ensemble? I think the visitors of this site should be entitled to hear this masterpiece (in my opinion). In any case...I will contact the Tolkien Ensemble myself. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::And yes...one more thing...What about this WM thing you were talking about? [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 09:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::You would have to discuss this with other users (and admins) of this site first before initiating contact with them and seeking to put their songs this website. I personally don't think it would be appropriate for TG to host songs that people should be paying for. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::You did not answer my question! What about this WM thing I am accused!? I find myself insulted for, coinsidentally , wanting to expand this wiki as much as it is possible. And for your information, I am an editor on Wikipedia. And I am not talking about paying anything. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 10:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::::No, but by having their songs on our website we are preventing them from earning money from them. I'm not convinced that that is right. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

==Pagination==
I have hi-res scans of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' on my computer. And I have seen before that pagination can be a sort of a mess, when multiple versions of the same book collide together. [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 13:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

:The pagination for ''The History of Middle-earth'' series is pretty much consistent (which is why we reference pages for those when we don't for ''The Lord of the Rings''). How long did it take you to scan them? What is the edition of your hardcopy? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:40, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

::Sale of this book without a front cover may be unauthorized. If this book is coverless, it may have been reported to the publisher as “unsold or destroyed” and neither the author nor the publisher may have received payment for it.

::A Del Rey® Book Published by The Ballantine Publishing Group

::Copyright © 1983 by Frank Richard Williamson and Christopher Reuel Tolkien as Executors of the Estate of J. R. R. Tolkien

::All rights reserved under International and Pan-American Copyright Conventions.

::Published in the United States by The Ballantine Publishing Group, a division of Random House, Inc., New York.

::Del Rey and colophon are registered trademarks of Random House, Inc.www.delreydigital.com

::Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 83-12782

::ISBN 0-345-37521-1

::First published in the United States by Houghton Mifflin Company.

::Reprinted by special arrangement with Houghton Mifflin Company.

::Manufactured in the United States of America

::First Ballantine Books Edition: June 1992

::OPM 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 [[User:Maedhros95|Maedhros95]] 13:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

==Picture==
Hey, I noticed while skipping through pages that the picture for the page The Road Goes Ever On and On: The Maps of Tolkien's Middle Earth has nothing to do with the theme of the page as far as I can see. Yes, it's a picture of a book of maps, but it's not a picture of the book of maps we are talking about. I am still an utter newbie with this programing, and have no idea how to change the picture to a more accurate one. [[User:Arya|Arya]]

:Done. [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=The_Road_Goes_Ever_On_and_On:_The_Map_of_Tolkien%27s_Middle-earth&curid=35192&diff=272100&oldid=214177 Look at the change I've made] to see how the coding works. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:52, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

::Good that. Will be changing quite a few pics myself, correct me if you don't think that they are right. The titles match!!! :) [[User:Arya|Arya]]

==Elendilmir==

How should we address the confusion surrounding the number and fates of the different incarnations of the Elendilmir? See my note on the talk page of the relevant entry. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 06:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

:By discussing it on that article's talk page, and '''not''' on my talk page. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:21, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

::Sorry if I bothered you. This was literally the first interaction I've had with anyone on this site. I wasn't aware that I was doing something wrong. I asked you because the post on my talk page told me to bring any questions to you. I won't make the same mistake again. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 04:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

:::A user's talk page is for them specifically to respond (i.e. an issue directly for that user); an article's talk page is for discussion about that article (i.e. for anyone in the community). The problem with having a conversation elsewhere is that the discussion/decisions are divorced from the article - in future months/years other users won't think to look at my talk page to find out why a decision was made. It's simply good housekeeping to keep everything together with the article.
:::The welcome message on your talk page wasn't actually written by me (and I've been meaning to change it for a while), but there's a complicated technical reason why [[User:Mithbot|my bot]] has to leave the message. But when it comes to "''If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the Council forums or ask me on my talk page.''" the implication - which probably should be clearer - is that "any questions" are about the site/editing/policy/style as opposed to the future of individual articles.
:::I have obviously seen your contributions on both [[User talk:WadCheber#Welcome!|your own]] and [[User talk:Hyarion#Greeting new users|Hyarion's]] talk pages - I shall respond to it all here to prevent fragmentation of the conversation. I think "''After looking through the other entries in his talk page, I got the impression that this is pretty much par for the course with him.''" is unfair - there is only one user, WoollyMammoth, I was very firm with; he had made a lot of edits and was a particularly confrontational user who was [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block subsequently banned by another admin for his behaviour]. That does not indicate someone who "''is determined to be laconic and/or borderline hostile''" or who intends to "''chase people away''".
:::Having said all the above, my previous message was obviously a curt one, for which I apologise; I shouldn't have been so short with you and should have explained the situation more thoughtfully. On this occasion I did bite the newbie - thank you for calling me out on it. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
:::: No problem. We all make little mistakes. Thank you for explaining the issue more clearly. WoollyMammoth sowed the wind, so he reaped the whirlwind. No fault on your part there. I was talking about other, less obvious instances in your interactions above, but there is nothing so far beyond the pale as to call your personal qualification as an admin into question. I was probably a bit overly defensive as well. Thanks again for the advice and explanation. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 22:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

::::In fact, I should probably apologize to you as well. I think I overreacted. I was having a bad day myself, and I took it out on you, with very little reason. [[User:WadCheber|WadCheber]] 00:06, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

:::::Great to have you aboard WadCheber! I'm glad we got everything cleared up. If you have any other questions or suggestions don't hesitate to let us know, we really appreciate the feedback. Oh, and if it makes you guys feel any better; I'm having a great week :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:51, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

==Pixels==
I've noticed that I can't put down some pics on articles. Once I type the info down that should put down an article and I tap the preview button, all i get is 250 pixels in red text. What does this mean? Is it that the picture doesn't fit or am I typing out the info wrong? P.S. No article was hurt in the experimentations of me. [[User:Arya|Arya]] 18:27, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

:Without seeing the code you are using it is difficult for me to know, but I would guess that you are inputting the file name incorrectly. Files in infoboxes takes the form like this: <nowiki>[[File:FILENAME|250px]]</nowiki>. Thumbnails in the body of an article tend to look like this: <nowiki>[[File:FILENAME|thumb|right|CAPTION]]</nowiki>. Take a look at [[Help:Images]]. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:30, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

::Thanks Mith. I don't know exactly what I was doing wrong, and because I didn't take a screen-shot, it shall always remain a mystery (though not one I shall be very worried about now I have stopped making the mistake). Thanks as always, [[User:Arya|Arya]] 07:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

==Genealogy==
Hello Mith. I have been getting use to making family tree's on TG but I have come across a problem. When I want to expand a family tree in the x direction, I can't figure out the code to do it. I looked at the Baggins family tree for an example of x scrolling and I found right before you write familytree/start, there is a line of code telling the tree to overflow to the right if it can't fit within the boundary. When I copy and paste that line into my family tree exactly like it is in the Baggins tree, it doesn't overflow to the right. All I am wondering is what I am missing or if I'm doing something incorrectly. This would be a massive help. {{unsigned|Ríë}}

:Could you paste here the code you are using so I can take a look at it? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 07:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

::< div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;" > I had to put spaces between the <_d and "_> so the command wouldn't run. {{unsigned|Ríë}}

:::There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that. Are you remembering to put <nowiki></div></nowiki> after <nowiki>{{familytree/end}}</nowiki> at the end of the template?
:::By the way you can use <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki></nowiki> to include coding you don't want to actually process. And to sign your posts just type "<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>" at the end. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

::::Thanks so much. I forgot to add in <nowiki></div></nowiki>. "[[User:Ríë|Ríë]] 14:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)"

== Tweaking LOTRO information ==

Thanks for fixing my errors, sorry for messing up in the capitalization of 'adaptations.' I have some questions. Fitst, could you help me with citing information about Earnur in the Mordirith article if that is necessary? Also I noticed you put names from the game in quotes, could you explain that? Maybe I missed something in the style guide. Finally, I'm uncertain about when to use in-universe vs. out-of-universe voice and past tense vs. present tense in the Portrayal in Adaptations sections. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 19:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

:With references you will need to cite third-party websites (such as IGN) using the [[Template:Webcite|webcite template]]. I put in quotemarks all the invented characters and locations so it was more obvious that they weren't borrowed characters from Tolkien's universe; but you are right this isn't in the Style Guide. Portrayal in adaptations sections (the issue was more your spelling "adapations") should be descriptive and so have an "out-of-universe" voice in my view; preferably the past tense. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 23:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

::Oh, I never noticed the spelling mistake. Thanks for catching that. For the [[Mordirith]] article I meant to ask for help citing the bit from the books about Eärnur, but I found it. For my LOTRO sources, I use the LOTRO wiki when I can, otherwise I look for it in the game myself, and when I can I check both. Is there a way I can cite the game directly, similarly to how the [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages] cite the Elder Scrolls games? I also noticed you removed the category I put into [[Arnach]], if it is a location in LOTRO is it not appropriate to categorize it if it's also categorized as a word? I don't think the city in the game is significant enough for its own article. I wish there was a place on the wiki to write about the events and people from the game from an in-universe perspective, though. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 03:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::PS: On an unrelated note, what's the deal with the guy who keeps making sockpuppets to make lots of very minor edits? Seems very odd to me. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]]

:::I'm not entirely sure you can cite the books for a character that is massively changes for the game. You can't cite another wiki; we don't have a reference template for LOTRO because I don't know enough about the game in order to be able to reference it - is there a a way I can understand the structure of quests and epic books and things like that? The Lord of the Rings Online locations category is for locations invented for the game. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:42, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

::::Ah, I only cited the information that actually came from the books - that is that [[Eärnur]] was challenged twice by the [[Witch-king]], the second time he went to [[Minas Morgul]] and was never heard from again. Don't worry, I got that part figured out now. [[Arnach]] is a location invented for the game, it is the capital city of [[Lossarnach]]. Epic books are just a way of categorizing the Epic Series, the quests that tell the main storyline of the game. Most of the quests in the game are categorized under the region they are found in. In the game, I get most of the information from the dialogue windows NPCs have when talking to them for quests, the deed log, and the game map. I can take some screenshots later if that would help you get a better idea of it. [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 12:54, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

::::Also, I'll try to follow your advice about using past tense, but it's tricky when describing ongoing parts of the game. My best idea is to use present tense for persistent parts of the game and past tense when describing lore and events from the game, if that makes sense. For example "Dol Amroth '''is''' a city in Western Gondor. It '''was''' blockaded by corsairs." How does that sound? [[User:Sullathron|Sullathron]] 13:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

:::::I'd prefer the past tense. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::Sorry, I'm fixing it. There's also the other stuff I was talking about up there, when you're not busy. Thanks. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 22:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey Mith I don't mean to be a bother but why did you undo my edit about the North Downs' portrayal in LOTRO? I put some work into that. If it's about sources, I'm sorry if I'm getting ahead of myself. I started a forum post asking for help with that. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 13:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

:It was too much for one adaptation; we aren't a LOTRO wiki, we're a Tolkien wiki - I thought the length of the section was disproportionate. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

::I suppose you are right. I'm still disappointed, though. I really want a place for articles about all the lore the game adds.

::There is the Lotro-wiki, but that is mostly written in a gamer perspective ("Do this in that quest, do that in this instance") and the lore bits are scattered around in no organized way. Besides, I think spoilers would be more of an issue there. Someone might want to look up the fight against Mordirith but not see the spoilers about his other identities.

::Then there is lotr.wikia.com, but... I don't know. Something I don't like about it as much, it seems less professionally done. Too based on the movies, and to use the North Downs as an example I'm pretty sure someone put their own fanon on that page. ...I suppose that's all the more reason to work there, it's just discouraging when the other wikis are such a mess. {{User:Sullathron/sig}} 13:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

== Creating a Page ==

How do I create a Page? I am trying to create one for myself, but I do not understand how to do it. Please help. {{unsigned|Lúthien Lossëhelin}}

:Search for the article you want to create, if it doesn't already exist you'll get a message 'Create the page "XXX" on this wiki!' - just click on "XXX" to create it. If you want to create your userpage (i.e. [[User:Lúthien Lossëhelin]]), click on Lúthien Lossëhelin on the menu on the left-hand side under "Personal Tools". --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

== Valandil ==

Wow, that's a nice homecoming. I come home from San Fran and the first thing I have to do is clean up a ton of bile from Mammoth.

I probably should've mentioned being AFK for a week. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

:I've been at [[Oxonmoot 2015]]! But, to be fair, I have done an awful lot of clearing his stuff up myself over the last few months! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:10, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

== Woolly Mammoth ==
To [[User:Ederchil]] and [[User:Mith]] - wouldn't it be much easier for you to unblock me than to constantly tidy up my "mess" - I have much to contribute to this wiki - and, as I said before, I SINCERELY apologize for any insult made to any of you, especially to [[User:Mith]].

From a more practical perspective, it would be good for you to unblock me - of course, if you do not want to clear up the mess that will be gathering in the following years - I am not a madman - I simply feel insulted by your behavior - I would like to edit this wiki - as I no doubt showed before - and it would be to your well-being (and to the well-being of this site) if I would continue editing this Wiki without any further hindrance.

As for the images that I uploaded - I have proof that the permission was granted - although I have not been able to present the evidence to you - but if you unblock me I will - the visual representation of [[Tolkien]]'s works is to me, at least, an important aspect of his work. That is the reason I am hellbent on including the images, and I spend a lot of time on DevinatArt searching for Tolkien related art, and I am in good relation to other members of that community. This is all for me at the time - and I hope you will reconsider the ban.

Respectfully - Woolly Mammoth! [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] 20:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

:No, it wouldn't be easier. Even with your sockpuppets you are continuing to display the behaviour for which you were banned, further proving why you were banned in the first place. Nor am I going to unblock you under threat of creating further mess over the following years. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

==Another Thing==
I will NOT post any other images, nor will I edit any page without your consent - the fact that I made so many sock-puppets was only because I could not contact [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] and reconsider my ban - and I am sorry if you had to clear up my mess (although it was not all mess) - in any case - I WANT TO MAKE THIS SITE AS GOOD AS IT CAN BE - I cannot alter my past relations with the administrators on this site, but I DO hope I can smooth things with you. [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] 21:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Also...although [[User:Laurentus|Laurentus]] is, ironically, another sock-puppet, I could not have thought of a better way to represent my thoughts to you - so I will, without any guile, sign my post with - [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]]

:You already have edited hundreds of pages without our consent. Prove you words and don't make any edits. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Have my edits been so horrible as to have you chiding me? Nonetheless, concerning the images I have been uploading - I have proof:

[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Mirach Ravaia]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Mental Lighton]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|MellorianJ]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Meisiluosi]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Marina Awin]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Lisa]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Kip Rasmussen]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Jonathan Guzi]]
[[http://www.freeimagehosting.net/upl.php|Ellairë]]

All those wonderful art is being unjustly jettisoned - simply because I was not courteous to you. If you would let me upload those images I will leave this site forever - and I mean it. [[User:Henry|Henry]] 05:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC) (Woolly Mammoth)

Blue Wizards

2015-09-16T02:33:48Z

Henry: Replaced content with "{{delete}}"

Rómestámo

2015-09-16T02:31:01Z

Henry:

{{maiar infobox
| image=[[File:Turner Mohan - The Blue Wizards.jpg|250px]]
| name=Rómestámo
| pronun=
| othernames=Earlier writings: Alatar and Pallando
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Valinor]]</br>[[East]]
| affiliation=[[Istari]]</br>[[Oromë]]
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=Sea-blue
| weapons=
| steed=
| gallery=
}}
'''Rómestámo''' was one of the two [[wizards|emissaries]] sent to contest the will of [[Sauron]] in the furthest regions of [[Middle-earth]]. [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s conception of the two Blue Wizards changed dramatically between his earlier and later writings.

==History==
===Earlier writings===
The idea that there were two other [[wizards]] in addition to [[Gandalf]], [[Saruman]], and [[Radagast]] was first conceived when Saruman in his wrath revealed that there were five members of the Order of Wizards:
{{Blockquote|Later! Yes, when you [Gandalf] also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards|[[Saruman]]<ref name="TTVoice">{{TT|Voice}}</ref>}}

Nothing more was said of these two wizards in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' as it was published. However, whilst preparing (in [[1954]]) an Index for ''[[The Return of the King]]'', Tolkien wrote what his [[Christopher Tolkien|son]] later referred to as the 'essay on the Istari'. There it is said that of the chief wizards who went to the North of [[Middle-earth]] there were five, and two of these were clad in sea-blue. Little was known about these two in the West of Middle-earth; even their individual names were unknown, but they were known collectively as ''Ithryn Luin'', the Blue Wizards. It is said they travelled into the East with [[Saruman|Curunír]] (Saruman) but they did not return into the West. Their fate was unknown, but some held that they fell into evil and became servants of [[Sauron]].<ref name="UTIstari">{{UT|Istari}}</ref>

Tolkien expanded upon this last point in a letter written in [[1958]]:
{{Blockquote|I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] – since they do not concern the history of the N[orth].W[est]. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="Letter211">{{L|211}}</ref>}}

[[File:Tom Cross - Alatar - Darkness-slayer.jpg|thumb|Tom Cross - ''Alatar: Darkness-slayer''<ref group="note">Tolkien did not associate Alatar with Morinehtar (which means "Darkness-slayer") and they should not be considered synonymous.</ref>]]
Tolkien also suggests that only Gandalf returned to [[Valinor]]:
{{Blockquote|Wilt thou learn the lore <nowiki>||</nowiki> that was long secret<br/>of the Five that came <nowiki>||</nowiki> from a far country?<br/>One only returned. <nowiki>||</nowiki> Others never again|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="UTIstari"/>}}

In a brief narrative about a council of the [[Valar]], the origins of the Blue Wizards are placed alongside those of the other three, [[Saruman|Curumo]] (Saruman), [[Radagast|Aiwendil]] (Radagast), and [[Gandalf|Olórin]] (Gandalf). Whilst in the essay on the Istari the Blue Wizards are given no names, here they are called Alatar and Pallando. [[Oromë]] chose Alatar to send to [[Middle-earth]] (to contest the will of Sauron), and Alatar decided to bring along Pallando as his friend. Christopher Tolkien has speculated that their association with Oromë could be because he was the Vala who had the greatest knowledge of the furthest regions of Middle-earth and hence that is where the Blue Wizards journeyed.<ref name="UTIstari"/>

Based on the above material, the history of the Blue Wizards can be determined as the following:
*[[Manwë]] summons a council of the [[Valar]]. They decide to send emissaries to [[Middle-earth]]. [[Oromë]] chooses to send Alatar, and Alatar brings along his friend Pallando.<ref name="UTIstari"/>
*The Blue Wizards arrive in Middle-earth at roughly the same time as the other wizards c. {{TA|1000}}<ref name="AppB2">{{App|B2}}</ref>
*The Blue Wizards travel into the East of Middle-earth with [[Saruman]]. Saruman returns to the North West, but the Blue Wizards do not.<ref name="UTIstari"/>
*Together or independent of each other, Alatar and Pallando fall from their appointed task. They may have founded 'magic' cults amongst the peoples of the eastern and southern regions, which existed beyond the downfall of the [[Sauron|Lord of the Rings]].<ref name="Letter211"/>

===Later writings===
[[File:Jef Murray - Slayer of Darkness.jpg|[[Jef Murray]] - ''Slayer of Darkness''|thumb|250px]]
Towards the end of his life Tolkien returned to the issue of the Blue Wizards. In a brief outline he noted that the Blue Wizards were sent to [[Middle-earth]] in the [[Second Age]] and were destined to disrupt the work of Sauron in the East:

{{Blockquote|Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of [[Men]] that had rebelled from [[Melkor]]-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the [[Second Age]] and [[Third Age]] in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="PMLast">{{PM|Last}}, pp. 384-85</ref>}}

Therefore Tolkien dramatically altered his conception of the Blue Wizards. They no longer arrived in Middle-earth along with [[Saruman]], [[Gandalf]], and [[Radagast]] in c. {{TA|1000}}. Instead they arrived much earlier, at roughly the same time as [[Glorfindel]] in c. {{SA|1600}}. Whilst Glorfindel was tasked with aiding [[Elrond]] with the war in [[Eriador]], the Blue Wizards were destined to journey to the East. Tolkien no longer believed that they drifted from their mission; instead he makes it clear that they played a decisive role in the downfall of Sauron at the end of both the [[Second Age]] and the [[Third Age]]. They became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper, and were successful in preventing the forces of the East from outnumbering those of the [[Free peoples]] in the West.<ref name="PMLast"/>

Based on these later writings, a history of the Blue Wizards can be summarized as the following:
*The two Blue Wizards were sent to Middle-earth at roughly the same time as [[Glorfindel]] in c. {{SA|1600}} (and similarly at the behest of the [[Valar]]), the Year of Dread, when Sauron forged [[the One Ring]] and completed the building of [[Barad-dûr]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*The Blue Wizards journeyed into the East of Middle-earth, where they remained; they were not heard or seen of west of [[Mordor]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*There they became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper.<ref name="PMLast"/>
*The Blue Wizards were able to hinder Sauron's operations in the East, aiding the defeat of [[Sauron]] in the [[War of the Last Alliance]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*During the early [[Third Age]] and until the end of the [[Watchful Peace]], they were tasked with finding where Sauron dwelt. They failed.<ref name="PMLast"/>
*Morinehtar and Rómestámo ensured that the forces of the East did not outnumber the West, thus helping secure victory for the [[Free peoples]] in [[War of the Ring]].<ref name="PMLast"/>

==Etymology==
''Rómestámo'' (pron. {{IPA|[ˌroːmeˈstaːmo]}}; or ''Róme(n)star'') is a [[Quenya]] name meaning "East-helper".<ref name="PMLast">{{PM|Last}}, pp. 384-5, 391 (note 28)</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''2012: ''[[The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey]]'':'''
:[[Gandalf]] mentions the Blue Wizards when he explains the number of Wizards, and says that he has forgotten their names.

:Since the film production team does not have the rights to include material from sources other than ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'', the decision to include the line "Blue Wizards" (only appearing in ''[[Unfinished Tales]]''<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 244</ref>) has been regarded as controversial.<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Janet Brennan Croft]]|articleurl=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/23828|articlename=Source Material (message #23828)|dated=17 December 2012|website=[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/ MythSoc mailing list]|accessed=17 December 2012}}</ref>

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of the Blue Wizards|Images of the Blue Wizards]]
*[[Radagast#Did Radagast fail?]]

{{References}}
{{ainur}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Romestamo}}
[[Category:Maiar]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[Category:Wizards]]
[[de:Ithryn Luin]]
[[fi:Siniset velhot]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/ainur/maiar/istari/ithryn_luin]]

Blue Wizards

2015-09-16T02:28:37Z

Henry:

{{maiar infobox
| image=[[File:Turner Mohan - The Blue Wizards.jpg|250px]]
| name=Rómestámo
| pronun=
| othernames=Earlier writings: Alatar and Pallando
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Valinor]]</br>[[East]]
| affiliation=[[Istari]]</br>[[Oromë]]
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=Sea-blue
| weapons=
| steed=
| gallery=
}}
'''Rómestámo''' was one of the two [[wizards|emissaries]] sent to contest the will of [[Sauron]] in the furthest regions of [[Middle-earth]]. [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s conception of the two Blue Wizards changed dramatically between his earlier and later writings.

==History==
===Earlier writings===
The idea that there were two other [[wizards]] in addition to [[Gandalf]], [[Saruman]], and [[Radagast]] was first conceived when Saruman in his wrath revealed that there were five members of the Order of Wizards:
{{Blockquote|Later! Yes, when you [Gandalf] also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards|[[Saruman]]<ref name="TTVoice">{{TT|Voice}}</ref>}}

Nothing more was said of these two wizards in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' as it was published. However, whilst preparing (in [[1954]]) an Index for ''[[The Return of the King]]'', Tolkien wrote what his [[Christopher Tolkien|son]] later referred to as the 'essay on the Istari'. There it is said that of the chief wizards who went to the North of [[Middle-earth]] there were five, and two of these were clad in sea-blue. Little was known about these two in the West of Middle-earth; even their individual names were unknown, but they were known collectively as ''Ithryn Luin'', the Blue Wizards. It is said they travelled into the East with [[Saruman|Curunír]] (Saruman) but they did not return into the West. Their fate was unknown, but some held that they fell into evil and became servants of [[Sauron]].<ref name="UTIstari">{{UT|Istari}}</ref>

Tolkien expanded upon this last point in a letter written in [[1958]]:
{{Blockquote|I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] – since they do not concern the history of the N[orth].W[est]. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="Letter211">{{L|211}}</ref>}}

[[File:Tom Cross - Alatar - Darkness-slayer.jpg|thumb|Tom Cross - ''Alatar: Darkness-slayer''<ref group="note">Tolkien did not associate Alatar with Morinehtar (which means "Darkness-slayer") and they should not be considered synonymous.</ref>]]
Tolkien also suggests that only Gandalf returned to [[Valinor]]:
{{Blockquote|Wilt thou learn the lore <nowiki>||</nowiki> that was long secret<br/>of the Five that came <nowiki>||</nowiki> from a far country?<br/>One only returned. <nowiki>||</nowiki> Others never again|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="UTIstari"/>}}

In a brief narrative about a council of the [[Valar]], the origins of the Blue Wizards are placed alongside those of the other three, [[Saruman|Curumo]] (Saruman), [[Radagast|Aiwendil]] (Radagast), and [[Gandalf|Olórin]] (Gandalf). Whilst in the essay on the Istari the Blue Wizards are given no names, here they are called Alatar and Pallando. [[Oromë]] chose Alatar to send to [[Middle-earth]] (to contest the will of Sauron), and Alatar decided to bring along Pallando as his friend. Christopher Tolkien has speculated that their association with Oromë could be because he was the Vala who had the greatest knowledge of the furthest regions of Middle-earth and hence that is where the Blue Wizards journeyed.<ref name="UTIstari"/>

Based on the above material, the history of the Blue Wizards can be determined as the following:
*[[Manwë]] summons a council of the [[Valar]]. They decide to send emissaries to [[Middle-earth]]. [[Oromë]] chooses to send Alatar, and Alatar brings along his friend Pallando.<ref name="UTIstari"/>
*The Blue Wizards arrive in Middle-earth at roughly the same time as the other wizards c. {{TA|1000}}<ref name="AppB2">{{App|B2}}</ref>
*The Blue Wizards travel into the East of Middle-earth with [[Saruman]]. Saruman returns to the North West, but the Blue Wizards do not.<ref name="UTIstari"/>
*Together or independent of each other, Alatar and Pallando fall from their appointed task. They may have founded 'magic' cults amongst the peoples of the eastern and southern regions, which existed beyond the downfall of the [[Sauron|Lord of the Rings]].<ref name="Letter211"/>

===Later writings===
[[File:Jef Murray - Slayer of Darkness.jpg|[[Jef Murray]] - ''Slayer of Darkness''|thumb|250px]]
Towards the end of his life Tolkien returned to the issue of the Blue Wizards. In a brief outline he noted that the Blue Wizards were sent to [[Middle-earth]] in the [[Second Age]] and were destined to disrupt the work of Sauron in the East:

{{Blockquote|Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of [[Men]] that had rebelled from [[Melkor]]-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the [[Second Age]] and [[Third Age]] in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="PMLast">{{PM|Last}}, pp. 384-85</ref>}}

Therefore Tolkien dramatically altered his conception of the Blue Wizards. They no longer arrived in Middle-earth along with [[Saruman]], [[Gandalf]], and [[Radagast]] in c. {{TA|1000}}. Instead they arrived much earlier, at roughly the same time as [[Glorfindel]] in c. {{SA|1600}}. Whilst Glorfindel was tasked with aiding [[Elrond]] with the war in [[Eriador]], the Blue Wizards were destined to journey to the East. Tolkien no longer believed that they drifted from their mission; instead he makes it clear that they played a decisive role in the downfall of Sauron at the end of both the [[Second Age]] and the [[Third Age]]. They became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper, and were successful in preventing the forces of the East from outnumbering those of the [[Free peoples]] in the West.<ref name="PMLast"/>

Based on these later writings, a history of the Blue Wizards can be summarized as the following:
*The two Blue Wizards were sent to Middle-earth at roughly the same time as [[Glorfindel]] in c. {{SA|1600}} (and similarly at the behest of the [[Valar]]), the Year of Dread, when Sauron forged [[the One Ring]] and completed the building of [[Barad-dûr]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*The Blue Wizards journeyed into the East of Middle-earth, where they remained; they were not heard or seen of west of [[Mordor]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*There they became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper.<ref name="PMLast"/>
*The Blue Wizards were able to hinder Sauron's operations in the East, aiding the defeat of [[Sauron]] in the [[War of the Last Alliance]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*During the early [[Third Age]] and until the end of the [[Watchful Peace]], they were tasked with finding where Sauron dwelt. They failed.<ref name="PMLast"/>
*Morinehtar and Rómestámo ensured that the forces of the East did not outnumber the West, thus helping secure victory for the [[Free peoples]] in [[War of the Ring]].<ref name="PMLast"/>

==Etymology==
''Rómestámo'' (pron. {{IPA|[ˌroːmeˈstaːmo]}}; or ''Róme(n)star'') is a [[Quenya]] name meaning "East-helper".<ref name="PMLast">{{PM|Last}}, pp. 384-5, 391 (note 28)</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''2012: ''[[The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey]]'':'''
:[[Gandalf]] mentions the Blue Wizards when he explains the number of Wizards, and says that he has forgotten their names.

:Since the film production team does not have the rights to include material from sources other than ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'', the decision to include the line "Blue Wizards" (only appearing in ''[[Unfinished Tales]]''<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 244</ref>) has been regarded as controversial.<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Janet Brennan Croft]]|articleurl=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/23828|articlename=Source Material (message #23828)|dated=17 December 2012|website=[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/ MythSoc mailing list]|accessed=17 December 2012}}</ref>

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of the Blue Wizards|Images of the Blue Wizards]]
*[[Radagast#Did Radagast fail?]]

{{References|n}}
{{ainur}}
[[Category:Maiar]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[Category:Wizards]]
[[de:Ithryn Luin]]
[[fi:Siniset velhot]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/ainur/maiar/istari/ithryn_luin]]

Morinehtar

2015-09-16T02:27:38Z

Henry:

{{maiar infobox
| image=[[File:Quinton Hoover - Alatar.jpg|250px]]
| name=Morinehtar
| pronun=
| othernames=Earlier writings: Alatar or Pallando
| titles=
| position=[[Valinor]]</br>[[East]]
| location=
| affiliation=[[Istari]]</br>[[Oromë]]
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=Sea-blue
| weapons=
| steed=
| gallery=Images of the Blue Wizards
}}
'''Morinehtar''' was one of the two [[wizards]] sent to contest the will of [[Sauron]] in the furthest regions of [[Middle-earth]]. [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s conception of the two Blue Wizards changed dramatically between his earlier and later writings.

==History==
===Earlier writings===
The idea that there were two other [[wizards]] in addition to [[Gandalf]], [[Saruman]], and [[Radagast]] was first conceived when Saruman in his wrath revealed that there were five members of the Order of Wizards:
{{Blockquote|Later! Yes, when you [Gandalf] also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards|[[Saruman]]<ref name="TTVoice">{{TT|Voice}}</ref>}}

Nothing more was said of these two wizards in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' as it was published. However, whilst preparing (in [[1954]]) an Index for ''[[The Return of the King]]'', Tolkien wrote what his [[Christopher Tolkien|son]] later referred to as the 'essay on the Istari'. There it is said that of the chief wizards who went to the North of [[Middle-earth]] there were five, and two of these were clad in sea-blue. Little was known about these two in the West of Middle-earth; even their individual names were unknown, but they were known collectively as ''Ithryn Luin'', the Blue Wizards. It is said they traveled into the East with [[Saruman|Curunír]] (Saruman) but they did not return into the West. Their fate was unknown, but some held that they fell into evil and became servants of [[Sauron]].<ref name="UTIstari">{{UT|Istari}}</ref>

Tolkien expanded upon this last point in a letter written in [[1958]]:
{{Blockquote|I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] – since they do not concern the history of the N[orth].W[est]. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="Letter211">{{L|211}}</ref>}}

[[File:Tom Cross - Alatar - Darkness-slayer.jpg|thumb|Tom Cross - ''Alatar: Darkness-slayer''<ref group="note">Tolkien did not associate Alatar with Morinehtar (which means "Darkness-slayer") and they should not be considered synonymous.</ref>]]
Tolkien also suggests that only Gandalf returned to [[Valinor]]:
{{Blockquote|Wilt thou learn the lore <nowiki>||</nowiki> that was long secret<br/>of the Five that came <nowiki>||</nowiki> from a far country?<br/>One only returned. <nowiki>||</nowiki> Others never again|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="UTIstari"/>}}

In a brief narrative about a council of the [[Valar]], the origins of the Blue Wizards are placed alongside those of the other three, [[Saruman|Curumo]] (Saruman), [[Radagast|Aiwendil]] (Radagast), and [[Gandalf|Olórin]] (Gandalf). Whilst in the essay on the Istari the Blue Wizards are given no names, here they are called Alatar and Pallando. [[Oromë]] chose Alatar to send to [[Middle-earth]] (to contest the will of Sauron), and Alatar decided to bring along Pallando as his friend. Christopher Tolkien has speculated that their association with Oromë could be because he was the Vala who had the greatest knowledge of the furthest regions of Middle-earth and hence that is where the Blue Wizards journeyed.<ref name="UTIstari"/>

Based on the above material, the history of the Blue Wizards can be determined as the following:
*[[Manwë]] summons a council of the [[Valar]]. They decide to send emissaries to [[Middle-earth]]. [[Oromë]] chooses to send Alatar, and Alatar brings along his friend Pallando.<ref name="UTIstari"/>
*The Blue Wizards arrive in Middle-earth at roughly the same time as the other wizards c. {{TA|1000}}<ref name="AppB2">{{App|B2}}</ref>
*The Blue Wizards travel into the East of Middle-earth with [[Saruman]]. Saruman returns to the North West, but the Blue Wizards do not.<ref name="UTIstari"/>
*Together or independent of each other, Alatar and Pallando fall from their appointed task. They may have founded 'magic' cults amongst the peoples of the eastern and southern regions, which existed beyond the downfall of the [[Sauron|Lord of the Rings]].<ref name="Letter211"/>

===Later writings===
[[File:Jef Murray - Slayer of Darkness.jpg|[[Jef Murray]] - ''Slayer of Darkness''|thumb|250px]]
Towards the end of his life Tolkien returned to the issue of the Blue Wizards. In a brief outline he noted that the Blue Wizards were sent to [[Middle-earth]] in the [[Second Age]] and were destined to disrupt the work of Sauron in the East:

{{Blockquote|Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of [[Men]] that had rebelled from [[Melkor]]-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the [[Second Age]] and [[Third Age]] in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name="PMLast">{{PM|Last}}, pp. 384-85</ref>}}

Therefore Tolkien dramatically altered his conception of the Blue Wizards. They no longer arrived in Middle-earth along with [[Saruman]], [[Gandalf]], and [[Radagast]] in c. {{TA|1000}}. Instead they arrived much earlier, at roughly the same time as [[Glorfindel]] in c. {{SA|1600}}. Whilst Glorfindel was tasked with aiding [[Elrond]] with the war in [[Eriador]], the Blue Wizards were destined to journey to the East. Tolkien no longer believed that they drifted from their mission; instead he makes it clear that they played a decisive role in the downfall of Sauron at the end of both the [[Second Age]] and the [[Third Age]]. They became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper, and were successful in preventing the forces of the East from outnumbering those of the [[Free peoples]] in the West.<ref name="PMLast"/>

Based on these later writings, a history of the Blue Wizards can be summarized as the following:
*The two Blue Wizards were sent to Middle-earth at roughly the same time as [[Glorfindel]] in c. {{SA|1600}} (and similarly at the behest of the [[Valar]]), the Year of Dread, when Sauron forged [[the One Ring]] and completed the building of [[Barad-dûr]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*The Blue Wizards journeyed into the East of Middle-earth, where they remained; they were not heard or seen of west of [[Mordor]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*There they became known as Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper.<ref name="PMLast"/>
*The Blue Wizards were able to hinder Sauron's operations in the East, aiding the defeat of [[Sauron]] in the [[War of the Last Alliance]].<ref name="PMLast"/>
*During the early [[Third Age]] and until the end of the [[Watchful Peace]], they were tasked with finding where Sauron dwelt. They failed.<ref name="PMLast"/>
*Morinehtar and Rómestámo ensured that the forces of the East did not outnumber the West, thus helping secure victory for the [[Free peoples]] in [[War of the Ring]].<ref name="PMLast"/>

==Etymology==
''Morinehtar'' is described as meaning "Darkness-slayer",<ref name="PMLast"/> likely based on the [[Quenya]] words ''[[mori-]]'' ("darkness") and ''nehtar'' ("slayer").<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Helge Fauskanger]]|articleurl=http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf|articlename=Quenya-English Wordlist|website=[http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf Ardalambion]|accessed=12-September-2012}}</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''2012: ''[[The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey]]'':'''
:[[Gandalf]] mentions the Blue Wizards when he explains the number of Wizards, and says that he has forgotten their names.

:Since the film production team does not have the rights to include material from sources other than ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'', the decision to include the line "Blue Wizards" (only appearing in ''[[Unfinished Tales]]''<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 244</ref>) has been regarded as controversial.<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Janet Brennan Croft]]|articleurl=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/23828|articlename=Source Material (message #23828)|dated=17 December 2012|website=[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/ MythSoc mailing list]|accessed=17 December 2012}}</ref>

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of the Blue Wizards|Images of the Blue Wizards]]
*[[Radagast#Did Radagast fail?]]

{{References|n}}
{{ainur}}
[[Category:Maiar]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[Category:Wizards]]
[[de:Ithryn Luin]]
[[fi:Siniset velhot]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/ainur/maiar/istari/ithryn_luin]]

Template:Ainur

2015-09-16T02:27:14Z

Henry:

{| style="margin:0 auto;" class="collapsible collapsed toccolours" width="100%" align=center
|-
! align=center style="background:#ccccff" colspan="3" | '''[[Ainur]]'''
|-
| align="right" style="background: #E6E6FF; width: 60px;" rowspan="2" | '''[[Valar]]''' 
| align="right" style="background: #F2F2FF; width: 60px; font-size: 95%;" | '''[[Lords of the Valar|Lords]]''' 
| style="font-size: 90%;"| ''[[Manwë]]'' · ''[[Ulmo]]'' · ''[[Aulë]]'' · ''[[Oromë]]'' · ''[[Mandos]]'' · [[Irmo]] · [[Tulkas]] · <s>''[[Morgoth|Melkor]]''</s>
|-
| align="right" style="background: #F2F2FF; width: 60px; font-size: 95%;" | '''[[Valier|Queens]]''' 
| style="font-size: 90%;" | ''[[Varda]]'' · ''[[Yavanna]]'' · ''[[Nienna]]'' · [[Estë]] · [[Vairë]] · [[Vána]] · [[Nessa]]
|-
| align="right" style="background: #E6E6FF; width: 60px;" rowspan="3" | '''[[Maiar]]''' 
| style="font-size: 90%;" colspan="2" | [[Radagast|Aiwendil]] · [[Arien]] · [[Morinehtar]] · [[Rómestámo]] · [[Saruman|Curumo]] · [[Eönwë]] · [[Ilmarë]] · [[Sauron|Mairon]] · [[Melian]] · [[Gandalf|Olórin]] · [[Ossë]] · [[Salmar]] · [[Tilion]] · [[Uinen]]
|-
| align="right" style="background: #F2F2FF; font-size: 95%; width: 60px;" | '''[[Wizards]]''' 
| style="font-size: 90%;" | [[Saruman]] · [[Gandalf]] · [[Radagast]] · [[Morinehtar]] · [[Rómestámo]]
|-
| align="right" style="background: #F2F2FF; font-size: 95%; width: 60px;" | '''Evil''' 
| style="font-size: 90%;" | [[Sauron]] · [[Balrogs]] ([[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]] · [[Durin's Bane]])
|-
| align="center" style="background: #F2F2FF; font-size: 90%;" colspan="3" |''[[Music of the Ainur|Music]] · [[Valarin]] · [[Almaren]] · [[Valinor]] · [[Valmar]] · [[Second Music of the Ainur|Second Music]]'' • ''italics'' indicates [[Aratar]]
|}
<noinclude>[[Category:Peoples and races templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]</noinclude>

Boldog

2015-09-16T02:25:36Z

Henry:

{{sources}}
{{orc infobox
| image=
| name=Boldog
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=Captain
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=[[Morgoth]]
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death={{FA|465}}
| deathlocation=North-marches of [[Doriath]]; killed by [[Thingol]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=Iron spear
| steed=
}}
'''Boldog''' was the name of an [[Orcs|Orc]] chieftain during the [[First Age]].

== History ==
[[Morgoth]], hearing of the beauty of [[Lúthien]] and pondering the purposes of [[Thingol]], sent a great force against [[Doriath]], led by Boldog; but with another purpose also - for Morgoth wanted to take Lúthien into [[Angband]], for reasons undisclosed. However, the [[Iathrim]] defeated the invading army and<ref>{{LB|C12}}</ref> Thingol himself slew Boldog.<ref>{{LB|3U}}</ref>

Some time later, when [[Finrod]], [[Beren]], [[Edrahil]] and their companions (clad in Orc-form) were brought before [[Sauron]], they said that they were a part of the army under the command of Boldog, and had urgent news to deliver to [[Thangorodrim]] - but Sauron saw through their disguise, revealing to them that Boldog was slain but lately, and also due to Beren's dismay and anger due to Sauron's mention of Lúthien and how Morgoth coveted her.<ref>{{LB|C7}}</ref>

== Other Versions of the Legendarium ==
In [[Tolkien]]'s later works he proposed an idea that the name "Boldog" was not actually a name of an individual, but rather a title borne by Orc-shaped [[Maiar]].<ref>{{MR|P5}}</ref>

<blockquote>''Some of these things may have been delusions and phantoms but some were no doubt shapes taken by the servants of [[Morgoth|Melkor]], mocking and degrading the very forms of the children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of [[Maiar]], who had the power, as their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in [[Arda]]. '' ('Morgoth's Ring', "Myths transformed", text X')</blockquote>

<blockquote>''Boldog (…) is a name that occurs many times in the tales of [[Battles of Beleriand|the War]]. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the '''Orc-formed Maiar''', only less formidable than the [[Balrogs]]'' (Author's footnote to the text X)</blockquote>

<blockquote>''Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great as [[Sauron]], or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs.'' (Author's note to text)</blockquote>

Whether this idea was kept or discarded is unknown.

{{references}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Boldog}}
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Maiar]]
[[Category:Orcs]]
[[de:Boldog]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:orques:boldog]]