Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

User talk:Jools

2013-03-18T17:37:28Z

Jools: /* Music by Genre */

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==Languages used in the album '''In Elven Lands'''==
The Elvish languages used in the album [[In Elven Lands]] are several different dialects of [[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]], including [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s [[Proto Quenya]] (the so-called "Elf-Latin") and [[Neo-Quenya]]. These have all been sometimes misidentified as Neo-Elvish, however, most of the composition of the lyrics happened before [[Helge Kåre Fauskanger]] codified [[Neo-Quenya]]. Most were written before even before the collected Etymologies were published, and most of the vocabulary and grammar was taken from [[The Book of Lost Tales]] (Volumes 1 and 2) and [[Unfinished Tales|The Book of Unfinished Tales]].

The thing that many people have found confusing is that the entire work (according to the album notes) was intended to represent a corrupt later text, such as Tolkien described in the Introduction and Appendices to [[The Lord of the Rings]]. In order to create the illusion of a corrupt text (or in this case, a series of corrupt texts), the authors intentionally mutated words to account for the shifting palate, used loan-words from [[Anglo-Saxon]] and [[Sindarin]] and in one case simply mangled the pronunciation and re-transcribed the results to show the effects of the "folk music process" that often occurs over time.{{Unsigned|Jools}}

:Hi and welcome to TG, Jools — and thanks for your recent contributions! From what you wrote here I understand that you're referring to [http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=In_Elven_Lands&action=historysubmit&diff=227484&oldid=227483 this edit] of the page ''In Elven Lands'', and that you are critical of the change of "dialects of Quenya and Sindarin" to "Neo-Elvish (Quenya, Sindarin)". According to how you describe the linguistic process behind the lyrics, I would personally say it seems fair to describe it as "Neo-Elvish" (a term not limited to Fauskanger's version of Quenya). My suggestion, in order to make it clear to a reader that the album doesn't merely reproduce Elvish texts from Tolkien's corpus, would perhaps be to change the text back to "The songs on the album are [[Neo-Elvish|written in dialects]] of [[Quenya]], [[Sindarin]], [...]". Any thoughts? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 18:56, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

::Hi Morgan – Thanks for the note. I was busy making major changes to the article, which, on reflection, might not have been altogether necessary. But I look forward to your notes on that. When we first released the album, many fans dismissed our corruptions as mistakes. Since Tolkien held that corruptions in a text often reveal aspects of a culture, we took great pains to make the corrupt text work in a realistic and organic way.

::Which is, I suppose, my issue with calling it Neo-Elvish. We were trying to make a specifically Corrupted Elvish, while Neo-Elvish appears to be intended to be a functional language, Corrupted Elvish is used to illustrate the hypothetical texts that Tolkien was translating. I know....it's all a bit theoretical. Thoughts? [[User:Jools|Jools]]

:::It appears that you reworked the article when I was writing my note, and I think it reads much better now (especially pointing out that it's a "corrupted version" of Elvish).

:::I should also say that I'm a big fan of your album! I bought the album when it first came out and it's a treasure in my collection.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 19:15, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

:::Thanks Morgan! I'll tell the rest of the band. It makes us all feel warm and fuzzy to hear. [[User:Jools|Jools]] 20:06, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

::Hi and welcome Jools, since it was I who made the edit, I should apologise for the confusion, and proceed to clarify what "Neo-Elvish" is.
::My explanation is this: In short, Neo-Quenya and Neo-Sindarin is any Elvish text that is a non-Tolkien creation, meaning that it is non-canon and fan fiction. Neo- doesn't refer to Fauskanger's creations, nor takes account how regular or "corrupted" is, or how "right" or "wrong". Since song lyrics are not canonical Elvish texts ([[Namarie]], [[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]], Elendil's Oath, Cirion's Oath and so on), they are fan fabrications and fall under the umbrella of Neo-Elvish.
::Fauskanger on his page uses the term "Post-Tolkien compositions" which is exactly the same as "Neo-Elvish".
::I will try to explain more clear why Neo- is necessary: as you know Latin is a dead language, as it has no natural speakers and has stopped evolving. However it is still used ceremonially, so whenever a modern term is needed, the scholars can fabricate a neologism or calque out from Latin roots. I found in Wikipedia that Interrete is commonly chosen as the word for "Internet". I am sure that this word is internally correct (inter- is a valid Latin preposition and rete is the Latin word for "net") and other than I guess that the word follows proper translational, adaptational, derivational, phonological etc rules of the language. But it is not enough to make it Latin, and never will, because it doesn't belong to the arsenal of the "canonical" Latin corpus back when Latin was a living language. This word can be nothing else than Neo-Latin.

::::Your Latin example is quite appropriate, as Tolkien often compared Quenya to Latin, and often expressed that Latin pronunciation practices applied to most Elvish languages. But Latin is often divided between Classical Latin (i.e. Roman latin from before the fall of Rome) and so-called "Church" Latin, with is the Latin that most people learn in School. Church Latin used different pronunciation practices and incorporated different vocabulary. But within the walls of the Vatican, Church Latin has been kept alive. It remains a living language. To call it Neo-Latin is as absurd as calling modern French Neo-French. Languages evolve. How this applies to Quenya is, perhaps a subject for debate by more specialized linguists than I, but the similarities between the two "sacred" languages will make it an interesting discussion.

::This applies in Quenya as well. Perhaps ''lapselunga'' "baby-heavy" is a neat and word to express "pregnant" but it was not made by Tolkien, who might have created a different Quenya word for "pregnant". It might be structurally valid but this doesn't make it belong to the Quenya canon; it is Neo-Quenya.
::This was a word example but same applies in grammar as well. Latin grammar is very well documented, known and understood and is adequate to say anything you want, in contrast to Quenya grammar. So if we want to write an expression or formation of which Tolkien left no examples (hypothetical speech, passive voice etc), we must "guess" or "reconstruct" the rules according to our intuition. This is also a distinction between Quenya and Neo-Quenya, because it was not made by Tolkien, who might had done it differently.
::Please have in mind that the above don't express a disdain for Neo-Elvish or fan fiction, but an attept to clarify some minute meanings. I don't use the term in a derogatory manner but out of a sense of formality and correctness. I apologise for the long reply. I will gladly respond to any questions or objections you may have. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 01:40, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

:::Got it. Thanks Sage! I have incorporated your notes into the article. And no offense taken. I was just trying to be clear. When we began our work, no such nomenclature existed. [[User:Jools|Jools]] 02:09, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

==Music by Genre==
I have noticed that [[The Fellowship (band)|The Fellowship]] is not listed in the "Music by genre" section of the music pages. The album [[In Elven Lands]] is "Early Music," which is a subset of "Classical" (by which nomenclature you mean the Western Classical Tradition, since technically, "Classical" only truly applies to a certain number of compositions between ca. 1750 and ca. 1840). In a classical music education, Early Music and the techniques used by [[The Fellowship (band)|The Fellowship]] are taught as the origins of the Western Classical Tradition. [[In Elven Lands]] is not "Folk Music" as some have suggested, nor is it "Celtic" (presumably a subset of Folk). With the possible exception of The Longbottom Leaf, which is based upon an English Contry Dance from the Playford collection, there was no direct Celtic influence on this album (musicologists are divided as to whether Playford's collection contained Celtic influenced works).

All of the works on [[In Elven Lands]] are based on some aspect of Early Music, ranging from the music of Pre-Christian Macedonia ([The Blood of Kings]) through to the 16th and 17th Century (our Playford source was published in 1650, but contained much older music). Our organum-based harmony systems are taught at university music schools around the world as the predecessors to modern chordal harmonies and the dominant harmony system before ca. 1500. Likewise, our use of modal scales and rhythmic modes to create melodies are a part of the Western Classical Tradition in the development of melody, usually in connection with Troubadour music of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries. For these reasons, I recommend that [[In Elven Lands]] be listed by genre as "Classical." Unless, of course, you would like to list it as "Early Music."

On a related note, Carvin Knowles is not listed among your list of composers. If there is some criteria you require for composers, I would be happy to provide evidence that Carvin Knowles meets those requirements.

::I created a [[:Category:Early music|Category:Early music]], in which I placed ''In Elves Lands'' and The Fellowship.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 16:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

:::Thanks!

2013-03-12T02:09:36Z

Jools: /* Languages used in the album In Elven Lands */

==Welcome!==
Hello and [[Tolkien Gateway:Welcome|welcome]] to '''[[Tolkien Gateway:About|Tolkien Gateway]]'''. I hope you like the place and choose to join our work. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
*Internal pages:
**[[Tolkien Gateway:To-do|To-do list]]
**[[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style|Standards]]
**[[Forum:Council|Council forums]]
**[[Special:Recentchanges|Recent changes]]
*External Wikipedia pages:
**[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to edit a page|How to edit a page]]
**[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Tutorial|Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial]]
**[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Picture tutorial|Picture tutorial]]
**[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:How to write a great article|How to write a great article]]

I hope you enjoy editing here and we look forward to your future edits. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~<nowiki>~~</nowiki>. Four tildes (~~<nowiki>~~</nowiki>) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the [[Help:Contents|help pages]], add a question to the [[Forum:Council|Council forums]] or ask me on [[User talk:Hyarion|my talk page]]. Keep up the great work!

==Languages used in the album '''In Elven Lands'''==
The Elvish languages used in the album [[In Elven Lands]] are several different dialects of [[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]], including [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s [[Proto Quenya]] (the so-called "Elf-Latin") and [[Neo-Quenya]]. These have all been sometimes misidentified as Neo-Elvish, however, most of the composition of the lyrics happened before [[Helge Kåre Fauskanger]] codified [[Neo-Quenya]]. Most were written before even before the collected Etymologies were published, and most of the vocabulary and grammar was taken from [[The Book of Lost Tales]] (Volumes 1 and 2) and [[Unfinished Tales|The Book of Unfinished Tales]].

The thing that many people have found confusing is that the entire work (according to the album notes) was intended to represent a corrupt later text, such as Tolkien described in the Introduction and Appendices to [[The Lord of the Rings]]. In order to create the illusion of a corrupt text (or in this case, a series of corrupt texts), the authors intentionally mutated words to account for the shifting palate, used loan-words from [[Anglo-Saxon]] and [[Sindarin]] and in one case simply mangled the pronunciation and re-transcribed the results to show the effects of the "folk music process" that often occurs over time.{{Unsigned|Jools}}

:Hi and welcome to TG, Jools — and thanks for your recent contributions! From what you wrote here I understand that you're referring to [http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=In_Elven_Lands&action=historysubmit&diff=227484&oldid=227483 this edit] of the page ''In Elven Lands'', and that you are critical of the change of "dialects of Quenya and Sindarin" to "Neo-Elvish (Quenya, Sindarin)". According to how you describe the linguistic process behind the lyrics, I would personally say it seems fair to describe it as "Neo-Elvish" (a term not limited to Fauskanger's version of Quenya). My suggestion, in order to make it clear to a reader that the album doesn't merely reproduce Elvish texts from Tolkien's corpus, would perhaps be to change the text back to "The songs on the album are [[Neo-Elvish|written in dialects]] of [[Quenya]], [[Sindarin]], [...]". Any thoughts? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 18:56, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

::Hi Morgan – Thanks for the note. I was busy making major changes to the article, which, on reflection, might not have been altogether necessary. But I look forward to your notes on that. When we first released the album, many fans dismissed our corruptions as mistakes. Since Tolkien held that corruptions in a text often reveal aspects of a culture, we took great pains to make the corrupt text work in a realistic and organic way.

::Which is, I suppose, my issue with calling it Neo-Elvish. We were trying to make a specifically Corrupted Elvish, while Neo-Elvish appears to be intended to be a functional language, Corrupted Elvish is used to illustrate the hypothetical texts that Tolkien was translating. I know....it's all a bit theoretical. Thoughts? [[User:Jools|Jools]]

:::It appears that you reworked the article when I was writing my note, and I think it reads much better now (especially pointing out that it's a "corrupted version" of Elvish).

:::I should also say that I'm a big fan of your album! I bought the album when it first came out and it's a treasure in my collection.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 19:15, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

:::Thanks Morgan! I'll tell the rest of the band. It makes us all feel warm and fuzzy to hear. [[User:Jools|Jools]] 20:06, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

::Hi and welcome Jools, since it was I who made the edit, I should apologise for the confusion, and proceed to clarify what "Neo-Elvish" is.
::My explanation is this: In short, Neo-Quenya and Neo-Sindarin is any Elvish text that is a non-Tolkien creation, meaning that it is non-canon and fan fiction. Neo- doesn't refer to Fauskanger's creations, nor takes account how regular or "corrupted" is, or how "right" or "wrong". Since song lyrics are not canonical Elvish texts ([[Namarie]], [[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]], Elendil's Oath, Cirion's Oath and so on), they are fan fabrications and fall under the umbrella of Neo-Elvish.
::Fauskanger on his page uses the term "Post-Tolkien compositions" which is exactly the same as "Neo-Elvish".
::I will try to explain more clear why Neo- is necessary: as you know Latin is a dead language, as it has no natural speakers and has stopped evolving. However it is still used ceremonially, so whenever a modern term is needed, the scholars can fabricate a neologism or calque out from Latin roots. I found in Wikipedia that Interrete is commonly chosen as the word for "Internet". I am sure that this word is internally correct (inter- is a valid Latin preposition and rete is the Latin word for "net") and other than I guess that the word follows proper translational, adaptational, derivational, phonological etc rules of the language. But it is not enough to make it Latin, and never will, because it doesn't belong to the arsenal of the "canonical" Latin corpus back when Latin was a living language. This word can be nothing else than Neo-Latin.
::This applies in Quenya as well. Perhaps ''lapselunga'' "baby-heavy" is a neat and word to express "pregnant" but it was not made by Tolkien, who might have created a different Quenya word for "pregnant". It might be structurally valid but this doesn't make it belong to the Quenya canon; it is Neo-Quenya.
::This was a word example but same applies in grammar as well. Latin grammar is very well documented, known and understood and is adequate to say anything you want, in contrast to Quenya grammar. So if we want to write an expression or formation of which Tolkien left no examples (hypothetical speech, passive voice etc), we must "guess" or "reconstruct" the rules according to our intuition. This is also a distinction between Quenya and Neo-Quenya, because it was not made by Tolkien, who might had done it differently.
::Please have in mind that the above don't express a disdain for Neo-Elvish or fan fiction, but an attept to clarify some minute meanings. I don't use the term in a derogatory manner but out of a sense of formality and correctness. I apologise for the long reply. I will gladly respond to any questions or objections you may have. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 01:40, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

:::Got it. Thanks Sage! No offense taken, just trying to be clear. When we began our work, no such nomenclature existed. And strictly speaking, our only fiction is the ''Tîr Im Psalter'', the presumed ancient corrupt text. The stories described by our songs already existed in every detail. I suppose in an academic way, it might be considered fan art, but it was, and remains, an academic exercise in re-constructing the music of lost civilizations. [[User:Jools|Jools]] 02:09, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

==Security Questions==
I know I'm being a bit pedantic, but the security questions have several wrong answers. The name of the person who accompanied Frodo into Mordor was not "Sam" but "Samwise." "Sam" is what he was called, but not his actual name. The King of Gondor at the end of The Lord of the Rings was "Elessar" not "Aragorn." Nobody called him "King Aragorn," just as nobody referred to "Pope Benedict" as "Pope Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger." And the actor who plays Gandalf in the Hobbit films (and The Lord of the Ring films) is "Sir Ian McKellen" not simply "Ian McKellen." It seems strange my correct answers to the security questions would be rejected. I'm just saying. [[User:Jools|Jools]]

User talk:Jools

2013-03-12T01:21:20Z

Jools: /* Languages used in the album In Elven Lands */

User talk:Jools

2013-03-12T01:20:29Z

Jools: /* Languages used in the album In Elven Lands */

User talk:Jools

2013-03-12T01:19:43Z

Jools: Corrected indentation. No text changes.

In Elven Lands

2013-03-12T01:18:11Z

Jools: Added the header *First Edition* at the top. It had fallen off in recent edits.

==First Edition==
[[File:In Elven Lands (First Edition) cover art.jpg|thumb|right|''In Elven Lands'' (First Edition) cover]]
'''''In Elven Lands''''' is an album by [[The Fellowship (band)|The Fellowship]], released on [[31 January]] [[2006]]. [[The Fellowship (band)|The Fellowship]] take a musicological approach to imagine how the ancient cultures described by J.R.R. Tolkien might have sounded, performing on an all-acoustic array of ancient and modern instruments that includes harp, lute, hurdy-gurdy, krumhorn and gong among a wide variety of others.

The subject matter for the songs on ''In Elven Lands'' are drawn from aspects of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s [[legendarium]], including stories from ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' and ''[[The Silmarillion]]''. The album title, ''In Elven Lands'', is taken from the lyrics of their song 'Beware The Wolf':

''...let us ride before the break of day, through woven woods in Elven lands, to find the starry-jeweled hand...''

==Track Listing==
# Tîr Im
# Dan Barliman's Jig
# Silver Bowl
# Man in the Moon
# Verse to Elbereth Gilthoníel
# Eléchoi
# Beware the Wolf
# Oromë: Lord of the Hunt
# Creation Hymn
# When Dûrin Woke
# Eala Earendel
# Sacred Stones
# Battle of Evermore
# Blood of Kings
# Verses to Elbereth Gilthoníel
# Evening Star

==Second Edition==
[[File:In Elven Lands (Second Edition) cover art.jpg|thumb|right|''In Elven Lands'' (Second Edition) cover]]
On [[5 November]] [[2012]] a digitally remastered Second Edition of the album was released by Oglio Records. The Second Edition corrects some [[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]] lyrics, and includes a performance of Tolkien's original version of [[Namárië]] as well as ''Silmesse'', a song with lyrics by Tolkien linguist [[Helge Kåre Fauskanger]]. In all, it includes five previously unreleased songs and two alternate versions of works from the first release.

Legally downloaded versions of the '''''In Elven Lands Second Edition''''' also include fully illustrated a 50-Page booklet in PDF form, with lyrics and album notes.

# Tîr Im
# The Longbottom Leaf
# The Silver Bowl
# The Man in the Moon
# A Verse to Elbereth Gilthóniel
# Elo Elleth
# Beware the Wolf
# Oromë: Lord of the Hunt
# Creation Hymn
# Silmesse
# Elechoi Mirnu Aglaron
# When Dûrin Woke
# Eala Earendel
# Namárië
# The Battle of Evermore
# The Blood of Kings
# Canticle to Elbereth Gilthóniel
# The Evening Star
# Terra Beata

==Languages==
The songs on the First Edition of ''In Elven Lands'' are written in Modern English, [[Anglo-Saxon]], and intentionally corrupted versions of Proto-[[Quenya]] (the so-called "Elf-Latin") and [[Noldorin]]/[[Sindarin]].

The Second Edition also introduces [[Helge Kåre Fauskanger]]'s [[Neo-Elvish|Neo-Quenya]] in the song ''Silmesse.'' With the departure of guest artist Jon Anderson from the Second Edition, two of the songs in Modern English have been removed, leaving only three songs in Modern English, as opposed to eight in [[Elvish]] dialects.

According to the album notes in the Second Edition, the language usage was intended to create the impression of a corrupt later text, such as Tolkien described in the Introduction and Appendices to ''The Lord of the Rings''. In order to create the illusion of a corrupt text (or in this case, a series of corrupt texts), the authors used Proto-Quenya and Proto-Sindarin vocabulary taken from ''[[The Book of Lost Tales (disambiguation)|The Book of Lost Tales]]'' (Volumes [[The Book of Lost Tales Part One|1]] and [[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two|2]]) and ''[[Unfinished Tales]]''. They then intentionally mutated words to account for the shifting palate, used loan-words from other languages from Arda, and in one case simply mangled the pronunciation and re-transcribed the results to show the effects of the "folk music process" that often occurs over time.

==External links==
* [http://inelvenlands.com Official website]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFZlPP8DCnw YouTube Video for the Second Edition]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wO8Vf1ADnc YouTube Video for The Blood of Kings]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0-K_EcCdEs YouTube Video for Silmesse]
{{title|italics}}
[[Category:Albums]]

User talk:Jools

2013-03-11T20:06:40Z

Jools: /* Languages used in the album In Elven Lands */

User talk:Jools

2013-03-11T19:13:14Z

Jools:

2013-03-11T00:34:42Z

Jools: /* Second Edition */ corrected for Tolkien Gateway style. Added additional facts about the Second Edition.

[[File:inelvenlands.jpg|thumb|right|''In Elven Lands'' (First Edition) cover]]
'''''In Elven Lands''''' is an album by [[The Fellowship (band)|The Fellowship]], released on [[31 January]] [[2006]]. The music is inspired by the writings of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] and performed on ancient and modern instruments.

==Track Listing==
# Tîr Im
# Dan Barliman's Jig
# Silver Bowl
# Man in the Moon
# Verse to Elbereth Gilthoníel
# Eléchoi
# Beware the Wolf
# Oromë: Lord of the Hunt
# Creation Hymn
# When Dûrin Woke
# Eala Earendel
# Sacred Stones
# Battle of Evermore
# Blood of Kings
# Verses to Elbereth Gilthoníel
# Evening Star

==Second Edition==
[[File:In Elven Lands (Second Edition) cover art.jpg|thumb|right|''In Elven Lands'' (Second Edition) cover]]
On [[5 November]] [[2012]] a digitally remastered Second Edition of the album was released by Oglio Records. The Second Edition corrects some [[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]] lyrics, and includes a performance of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s original version of [[Namárië]] as well as a song with lyrics by linguist [[Helge Kåre Fauskanger]]. In all, it includes five previously unreleased songs and two alternate versions of works from the first release.

# Tîr Im
# The Longbottom Leaf
# The Silver Bowl
# The Man in the Moon
# A Verse to Elbereth Gilthóniel
# Elo Elleth
# Beware the Wolf
# Oromë: Lord of the Hunt
# Creation Hymn
# Silmesse
# Elechoi Mirnu Aglaron
# When Dûrin Woke
# Eala Earendel
# Namárië
# The Battle of Evermore
# The Blood of Kings
# Canticle to Elbereth Gilthóniel
# The Evening Star
# Terra Beata

==External links==
* '''[http://inelvenlands.com Official website]'''

{{title|italics}}
[[Category:Albums]]