Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-28T19:50:14Z

Kaue Tadaieski:

==Family tree==
I just wanted to check, that the rest of the family tree will be added in due course? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Yes, I was planning on that, but I wasn't sure how to add characters in the family tree. Is there a page where that is explained? --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Well, I tried it, but I couldn't fix [[Rían]]'s box. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

::Make sure you put the spaces in around the names and that the width of each row is the same. If you look at how I've edited it you'll see what I mean. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:16, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the tips! I only figured it out through try-and-check, by clicking "Show preview" a bunch of times, so it couldn't be perfect. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 14:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

==The canonicity of "House of Marach"==

I have an issue regarding the use of the term "House of Marach". As I understand from what I've read from Tolkien's works, I have yet to see the term being used within his works. The only times where he refers to the noble family, he refers to them as the "Third House of the Edain" or "House of Hador". Now I understand that there were prominent members of the same family before Hador himself who gave his name to the house but I haven't seen Marach give his name to the House itself. He has given his name to the general people of this race, specifically the term "Folk of Marach". Now one important note to make is that the noble family is distinguished from the general people who followed the house. For instance, "Third House of the Edain" is used to designate those of the actual ruling family and terms such as "Folk of Marach" are used to designate the culture of people who followed the before-mentioned house. Therefore, in the infoboxes pertaining to the members of this House prior to Hador himself, it's not neccesarily proper to give their House designation as "House of Marach" (a non-canon term). A more suitable term would be "Third House of the Edain". Any thoughts regarding this matter?--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 21:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

:You are correct about the "House of Marach", I properly replaced the term in all the articles. However, Tolkien usually applied the same terms both to the ruling family and to its followers when talking about any "House of". For example, in this case the "folk of Marach" was later known as the "House of Hador" (WJ:234). About the article name, the wiki uses the term that is mainly known to the readers. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

::Although I agree with the use of "folk of Marach" when addressing the culture and the people of that group of Edain, the term "House" in the legendarium always refers to a specific family and is not assigned to the general people who followed the family. Therefore, I believe that it is more appropriate to assign the term "Third House of the Edain" to all members of the "House of Hador" that predated Hador with a note addressing the fact that the term "House of Hador" only applied to those of the family from Hador's generation and beyond.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] ([[User talk:Tolkienator|talk]]) 19:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

==Tallest save the Elves ?==

Someone could tell me where we can find a source for this : "They were marked as being the tallest men inhabitants of Beleriand save the Elves" ?

For I've found the opposite in HOME 5 p276 (Quenta Silmarillion §130) : "They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves" and nothing to contradict.
Beside, the Numenoreans are also taller than the Elves in the §3 of the 2nd and 3rd version of the Fall of Numenor (HOME 5 and HOM 9) : "$3. And in the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature." [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] 09:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Erendis

:You are using old passages from the 30s or beggining of LotR writings that not necessary fit all the later narratives. Tolkien went back to write the Elders Days in the 50s and to polish LotR. His ideas on height had already changed.
:You can see passages like this: - ''"... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..."'' from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
:Even the ones you mentioned are from different "building" versions (1940 or 41) where the last one you see Chris use It in The Silmarillion, which is different from the ones you are mentioning. The last part ''"...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..."'' does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
:He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
:''<nowiki/>'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the '''Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent)''', which appears to have been '''about seven of our feet'''.’''
:Which is from the '''same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page:''' - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
:You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar ''"almost indistinguishable"''.
:The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
:Also, In the chapter "Beards" (1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he answers yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as saying this about royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - ''"The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to '''a stature a little above the average''', to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."''
:Which again matches with his letters such as this one (Letter 131) from 1951/52: - ''"The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became '''thus in appearance''', and even in powers of mind, '''hardly distinguishable from the Elves'''"''
:Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the '''two''' tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar? Tolkien on Turgon: - '''''"tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"'''''
:Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
:Thanks for reading. [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 23:15, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks a lot for your message and researches. I hope my (very very long, maybe too long ?) answer will be relevant. If not, I apologize : maybe it will be because I’m not an english speaker at home.

::First, I answer your last point :
::You write : Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the two tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar ? Tolkien on Turgon: - "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"
::Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
::=> It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one.

::Now, I answer other points :
::a) You write : You can see passages like this: - "... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..." from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
::=> Then the text goes : " '''But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature''', mighty among the Children of Eru, ready in mind, bold and steadfast."
::Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does.

::b) You write : Even the ones you mentioned are from different versions until the latest one you see Chris use in The Silmarillion, different from the one you are mentioning. The last part "...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..." does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
::=> Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist.

::c) You write : He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
::'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
::=> That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age.

::d) You write : Which is from the same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page: - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
::You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader ? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar "almost indistinguishable".
::=> It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body.
::In HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958), Bëorians are said to be "'''most like the Noldor''' and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory " ; we have here, (again ?), a comparison between Edain and Noldor based on psychological traits.

::e) You write : The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
::=> " broader " is not " taller " and "'''Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor]''', and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

::f) You write : Also, In the chapter "Beards"(1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he says yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as to say this about Royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - "The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."
::=> ok, this one seems to be quite a strong proof : how can be the royal house with elvish blood, taller than average Númenóreans, if Elves are smaller than them ?!
::Well, I see 2 answers :
::- on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)
::- on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people.

::As you can see, I’m not convince by your points except the last one which could be, however, understood in another way. I admit this other way is somewhat debatable (but I find it quite " Tolkienian " however), but it allows to unified all texts about this subject.

::See these texts and words (I know you know them, but with this selection, you will know about which parts I base my reflexion) :
::Text A : HOME 5 (Quenta Silmarillion p 276 §130 ; 1930-37)
::- Greatest was the house of Hador [...]. They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves; [...] Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader and their legs shorter and less swift. […] But the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; […] Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day ;

::Text B : HOME 5 (Fall of Numenor 2nd version p23 §3 ; 1928) & HOME 9 (Fall of Numenor 3e version p334 §3 ; 1940-41)
::- In the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; yet they were less fair and less wise than the Elves, though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were exceedingly tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of men in Middle-earth.

::Text C : HOME 11 (The Grey Annals p50 §135 ; 1951-58)
::- The men of Beor […] were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru […]. Like unto them were the woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high.

::Text D : HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958)
::- Greatest was the House of Hador [...], peer of Elven-lords. [...] they were tall and strong, [...] But the people of the House of Beor were [...] Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all Men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory [...]. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift. 

::Text E : NOME 3.11 Lives of Numenoreans ; 1965
::[Note 1] The Númenóreans were […] of the “House of Hador” and the “House of Bëor”. [...] The people of Bëor were on the whole [...] less tall and of less stalwart build; [...] The people of Hador were strong, tall [...]
::[…] the main mass of settlers came from the people of Bëor [...] was [...] in the North-west [...]. In most parts of the country Adûnayân was the native language of the people [...]

::Text F : UT 4.1 Note 7 ; unknown years because of this
::- There is no trace, either in the materials relating to the story of Aldarion and Erendis or elsewhere, of the presence of Drúedain in Númenor apart from the foregoing, save for a detached note which says that "the Edain who at the end of the War of the Jewels sailed over sea to Númenor contained few remnants of the Folk of Haleth, and the very few Drúedain that accompanied them died out long before the Downfall."

::Text G : HOME 12 (Late Writings, Of Dwarves and Men, p308 et 310 ; 1969)
::- […] among the Folk of Beor [...] Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare [...], and most were broader and more heavy in build. [46]
::46 Beren the Renowned had hair of a golden brown and grey eyes ; he was taller than most of his kin, but he was broad-shouldered and very strong in his limbs.
::In association with the Eldar, especially with the followers of King Finrod, they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, [47] [...]
::47 The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.
::But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War. [48]
::48 [With this account of the Folk of Beor and the Folk of Hador may be compared the description that my father wrote many years before in the Quenta Silmarillion, V.276, $130.]
::[...]
::Hobbits […] were called 'halflings' ; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.

::Text H : NOME (2.6 Descriptions of Characters, p194 " Heights " ; 1970)
::- [The Eldar] were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time [= when they lived in Valinor]. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than 6 ft. In height; their full-grown elfmen no less than 6 ft. 6, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.
::The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full-grown men were commonly 7 ft. tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent.

::Text I : NOME (2.5 "Beards" p187 ; 1972-73)
::- Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting (receding only slowly – as might be seen in Númenóreans of royal descent, in the matter of longevity also).
::[...]
::But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry [...]. The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average [...].

::It seems possible to gather all these elements into a global and coherent vision :
::1) There are size differences among the Elves :
::- Eldar are taller on average than other Elves (H)
::- Elfemales Eldar never measure less than 6 ft 6 and females rarely less than 6 ft (H)
::- the Noldor could be the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (C) ; they measure 7 ft average (G)

::2) Originally, there are differences in size among the Edain (G, E and others) :
::- the 1st House ("Bëorians") is not taller than the Eldar (C, A) because the Noldor are tall (C). The 1st House should therefore be at least the size of the other Eldar, if not a little taller, otherwise there would be no need to call on the Noldor specifically.
::- the 2nd House ("Halethians") is smaller than the 1st one, according to the most recent text (H) which talk about the subject. Previously, it was always stated that they were smaller, but we could understand that this comparison was with the 1st House, or with the 3rd House (C, A) ; anyway, it has always been said that they were smaller.
::- the 3rd House ( "Hadorians") is always described as tall (G, E, D, C, A), and often as taller than the 1st House (G, E, C, A). They are therefore, at a minimum, taller than the Eldar; an old text explicitly says that they are taller than the " Elves " (A). Afterwards, depending on how we understand this "taller than the Elves", we can consider the average of all the Elves (thus a value lower than the average size among the Eldar), or consider the race as a whole and that, therefore, the 3rd House would be on average, taller than the Noldor. Note that the text talks about "Elves" when we could use the term "Eldar". An element described below will allow us to favor one of these hypotheses.

::3) The differences between the 1st and 3rd Houses diminish over time because these two peoples mix (G).

::4) The population of Numenor is mainly made up of the 3rd House, then of the 1st House, and in a very small proportion, of the 2nd House (F, E).
::- Numenoreans average size is 7 ft, like the Noldor (H, G). An old text indicates that they are taller than the " Elves " (B). There again, considering the disparity in size among the Elves, we can understand that the Numenoreans are taller than the average elvish size (which is smaller than the average size of the Eldar only), while being as the same size as the Noldor who would be the tallest Elves (in Middle-earth).
::If we consider that the 1st House has an intermediate size between the Noldor and the other Eldar (therefore smaller than the Noldor ; see above, point 2 for this deduction), it would be a bit more coherent that the rest of the population (the 3rd House especially) is taller than the Noldor so that the mix brings the Numenorans to a size similar to that of the Noldor. (This is the element expected above to estimate the size of the 3rd House.)

::So all these elements and texts let me think that Hadorians are taller than Eldar, even of Noldorin origin.
::Are you still totally disagree ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 09:23, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
:::You write: " It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one."

:::R. Yes, average logic prevents that, because It's not only Thingol, but also Turgon, whose royal blood is later shown to make the Númenóreans taller. Tolkien could have dome some caviats on those heights, like he later did between Noldor and Teleri. It was also my last point because It's a cumulative point, last evidence.

:::You write: "Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does."

:::R. The quote compares Beor with the Eldar, the Noldor is added to specifically point out the similar height between the Noldor and Númenóreans, which are taller than any house of Men, you dispute that? You're again wrong here, the Hadoreans are compared to the house of Beör too, this is a evolution based revision from AB 2, pre LotR. That is how Tolkien goes by his writing.

:::You write: "Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist."

:::R. Then please sir, go to HoMe and again see that the final evolution of the tale (as described by Chris) is from circa 1958 "''Akallabêth'': The Downfall of Númenor". The reference is there maintained but your quote from circa 1940, where LotR was in Its initial phase and without revision, is not. This is a pre-LotR quote for all purposes.

:::You write: "That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age."

:::R. Because Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil?

:::You write: "It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body."

:::R. The elves having pointed ears to the point of Immediate discernment is false if having any at all. Tuor and Túrin (''Adanedhel)'' are exact examples of the note as they can harldly be told apart from the elves the strongest and tallest of the Edain. Hador, "'''''peer of elven lords"''''' followed by phsyical description of his house in LQS 2, circa 1958. See Túrin and his multiple descriptions, The Children of Húrin (Narn) circa 1955 as :
:::''- There he heard a strange tale that went among them. '''A tall and lordly Man, or an Elf-warrior''', some said, had appeared in the woods, and had slain one of the Gaurwaith, and rescued the daughter of Larnach whom they were pursuing.''
:::- ... ''and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and e'''ven among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor'''.''
:::Or Tuor, UT, 1950:
:::- ''"'''Then Voronwe led Tuor towards the light''', and as they drew near many Noldor, mail-clad and armed, stepped forward out of the darkness and surrounded them with drawn swords. '''And Elemmakil''', captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, '''looked long and closely at them'''.''
:::''<nowiki/>'This is strange in you, Voronwe/ he said. 'We were long friends. Why then would you set me thus cruelly between the law and my friendship? If you had led hither unbidden one of the other houses of the Noldor, that were enough. But you have brought to knowledge of the Way '''a mortal Man - for by his eyes I perceive his kin'''."''
:::"perhaps" no, your opinion is vague, the text is talking about physical characteristics, the note is for that - ''while their '''youth lasted''', the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.'' This was just another evidence among the many I brought, but the main point was to show you the evolution of the tale which you said "nothing contradicted" after citing a pre-LotR, QS quote, later directly revised in LQS 2 (circa 1958) by Tolkien, where the quote ''"They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves"'' is literally dropped. From ''"taller and stronger"'' to ''"almost indistinguishable"'' is ''a'' clear difference here, It's no different than Tolkien suddenly describing the house of Bëor as "almost indistinguisable" to house Hador except for the hair, after saying they are stronger (bigger) and taller, you would find It strange at minimum.
:::The quote ''"... '''for''' they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory".'' The word "for" is a clear indication of psychological, quite different from being alike '''ONLY''' while looking young...

:::You write: " broader " is not " taller " and "Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor], and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

:::R. Another example of me showing you the evolution of the mythology, nothing else, that was the purpose of this comment as the people of Bëor went from lean to broad, different concepts even from LotR to be honest, not consistant in this case. Your quotes to justify the tallest of the children of Eru in Beleriand are from revised quotes pre-LotR time.

:::You write: "on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)"
:::"on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people."

:::R. Aragorn was still taller than Boromir (preserving the difference) for example, though not sure It means anything really. The point of the note is regarding beards which is not an specific "doom" from Eru, of being far from their now non-existent home, only height and lifespan are. In other words the elven gene regarding height and lifespan will be worthless once the Númenóreans are doomed in these two characterists, however being beardless is a non factor regarding the blessings of Eru. Also, the elven genes in regards to height diminishes too over time, for elves AND men. But considering your view, she is no different than in regards to men with far off Númenórean descent being taller than the norm, but in each passing generation getting smaller, the gene is there but is diminishing because of the doom and mixed blood from the next generations, but the gene of being about 7 feet tall in origin is still there, though doomed. Eventually even the elven gene in regards to beards (the more lasting one) will be gone.
:::No, It's directly mentioned that the elven gene makes you beardless (because they are) and live longer (because they live) but the topic of height is coincidentally and specifically NOT because the Royal Eldar were taller ? Ummm

:::SECOND PART

:::As I've already mentioned, your quotes from pre-LotR narratives are directly revised, the concepts there are not the same from the later quotes that you mention, they can not be put together in the name of consistency alone.
:::1) Seems reasoanable. But only first age and perhaps beggining of the second. Diminishment is still active in ME, specially by the TA, the age of Men. Noldor and Eldar are somewhat similar in height you can almost asumme they are of the same size category in regards to Tolkien's view, almost 7 feet tall.

:::2) It says ''"no greater than the stature of the Eldar"'' and your conclusion is that they are a little taller? The house of Beör is not particulary tall (if even tall) and definitely not at least 6 ft. 6 in height. Makes no sense.
:::Let me be clear or rather Tolkien be clear, the Eldar are all somewhat similar in height, even the Sindar could ''"hardly be told apart"'' (circa 1960, HoMe, vol 11, Quendi and Eldar) from the exiles. The Noldor being called specifically in that passage can't possibly mean the house of Bëor is almost 7 feet tall... That is why in '''Dwarves and Men''' essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages.
:::A) Yes the text from 1937, QS, pre-LotR, mentioned "elves" but probably meant the elves of Beleriand aka Eldar mostly. This text was later directly revised in LQS 2 circa 1958, towards no comparison to any elf at all. Why? Because in the evolution of the mythos the elves got taller, specially those in the first age. The only comparison we have later on (1969) is of the Hadoreans closely resembling the Eldar while they were not old, same text the Eldar are in general close to 7 feet tall.

:::3) True. And they all grew to the same average later.

:::4) Old text, revised and changed, no argument can be made here from that. The rest is already corrupted.
:::You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, '''text H''') and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. Those are simply elements described from their former Edain houses (when they were not mixed even) not that the differences in height remained as they all grew to almost 7 feet tall in average (the royals being taller), and still that would be an argument for Númenóreans not Hadoreans.
:::Númenóreans are taller than pure-blood Hadoreans, including those with Bëor descent. Where do you think the 7 feet height information comes from? from the survivors and elf-friends in ME out of Númenor as in '''text H''' Tolkien cites Arnorians from the House of Elendil, descent from house of Bëor, as being 7 feet frequently, creators of the word "halfling". So Númenóreans were equally blessed by Eru and their sons were taller than ANY of the sons born in ME (including those of house Hador that fled Beleriand or stayed in Eriador and never reached It), they are the Kings of Men. The blessing part here is important, everyone was blessed and got taller than they ever were as any people, the elements here of the Edain houses gave way to Númenórean's elements, though most were Hadoreans in ancestrality anyway and those even invaded Valinor. Elendil, the tall (nearly 8 feet tall) is an example of that for he was tecnically from the house of Bëor. Either you acknowledge that fact or says he is that tall exclusively because of Eldar genes, which would make my case even better.
:::So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is '''almost or about 7 feet tall''', the royals (which are from the house of Hador actually) and nobles of Númenor who are generally taller are 7 feet tall for sure on average (see Isildur description), but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is '''still almost or about 7 feet'''?? You are reading too much into It, too many assumptions to fit your narrative. If you are in Númenor you will grow in height an body and become a Númenórean, even if you are one of the very few with Halethian ancestry, you will get to 7 feet tall.
:::Your point is basically saying that the first house was over 6 ft 6 (but not quite 7') in height even before growing in Númenor and that their members could '''RARELY''' reach the height of anyone from the folk of Hador, which would make the Hadoreans the tallest of all Children of Eru by far (nearly 8 feet tall? after Númenor), yet still shorter than Thingol and Turgon or maybe even Argon (though maybe another concept) ...

:::I disagree more now than before to be honest. The discussion turned into Hadoreans being substantially over 7 feet tall and their later Númenórean's direct descendants maybe even taller? I mean we are too far off the mark here.
:::The heights in ME regarding LotR , appendices, and CONSISTENT essays with It:
:::Gandalf (5'6") lower than the average of men in TA < folk kin to the house of Haleth, short, broad and "swarthier" (Bree, Dunlendings, white mountains folk) <= house of Haleth < house of Bëor <<<< house of Hador (prime) <= Eldar in their prime (Sindar, Vanyar, Nandor, Falmari) <= Númenóreans = Noldor in their prime.

:::Royal Noldorin are the tallest of all in general. '''It is no coincidence''' that the tallest of the Children of Eru: Thingol, Turgon or maybe even Argon (Royals of 7 feet tall people) gave the genes (before diminishing) to the tallest members of the Númenóreans, those who are said to reach 7 feet tall more often than the others '''''"especially in the royal and noble houses"''''' (H). None whatsoever.

:::I appreciate your answer and your points I read them all carefully and your english is fine indeed. I would still suggest that the original edit in the page of the House of Hador, in regards to them being taller than the elves of Belerind, be edited. As none of their members are in fact the tallest, not in comparison to the first or even the second of the Eldar. You can at least see how debatable and inconsistent that statement can be, specially with post-LotR revisions, used largely in The Silmarillion.
:::Have a good day sir. If the next reply is as big as the prior I'm not sure I'll be able to answer, I've already spent hours of my time on this :) [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 19:18, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-28T19:18:15Z

Kaue Tadaieski: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */ Reply

==Family tree==
I just wanted to check, that the rest of the family tree will be added in due course? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Yes, I was planning on that, but I wasn't sure how to add characters in the family tree. Is there a page where that is explained? --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Well, I tried it, but I couldn't fix [[Rían]]'s box. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

::Make sure you put the spaces in around the names and that the width of each row is the same. If you look at how I've edited it you'll see what I mean. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:16, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the tips! I only figured it out through try-and-check, by clicking "Show preview" a bunch of times, so it couldn't be perfect. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 14:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

==The canonicity of "House of Marach"==

I have an issue regarding the use of the term "House of Marach". As I understand from what I've read from Tolkien's works, I have yet to see the term being used within his works. The only times where he refers to the noble family, he refers to them as the "Third House of the Edain" or "House of Hador". Now I understand that there were prominent members of the same family before Hador himself who gave his name to the house but I haven't seen Marach give his name to the House itself. He has given his name to the general people of this race, specifically the term "Folk of Marach". Now one important note to make is that the noble family is distinguished from the general people who followed the house. For instance, "Third House of the Edain" is used to designate those of the actual ruling family and terms such as "Folk of Marach" are used to designate the culture of people who followed the before-mentioned house. Therefore, in the infoboxes pertaining to the members of this House prior to Hador himself, it's not neccesarily proper to give their House designation as "House of Marach" (a non-canon term). A more suitable term would be "Third House of the Edain". Any thoughts regarding this matter?--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 21:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

:You are correct about the "House of Marach", I properly replaced the term in all the articles. However, Tolkien usually applied the same terms both to the ruling family and to its followers when talking about any "House of". For example, in this case the "folk of Marach" was later known as the "House of Hador" (WJ:234). About the article name, the wiki uses the term that is mainly known to the readers. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

::Although I agree with the use of "folk of Marach" when addressing the culture and the people of that group of Edain, the term "House" in the legendarium always refers to a specific family and is not assigned to the general people who followed the family. Therefore, I believe that it is more appropriate to assign the term "Third House of the Edain" to all members of the "House of Hador" that predated Hador with a note addressing the fact that the term "House of Hador" only applied to those of the family from Hador's generation and beyond.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] ([[User talk:Tolkienator|talk]]) 19:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

==Tallest save the Elves ?==

Someone could tell me where we can find a source for this : "They were marked as being the tallest men inhabitants of Beleriand save the Elves" ?

For I've found the opposite in HOME 5 p276 (Quenta Silmarillion §130) : "They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves" and nothing to contradict.
Beside, the Numenoreans are also taller than the Elves in the §3 of the 2nd and 3rd version of the Fall of Numenor (HOME 5 and HOM 9) : "$3. And in the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature." [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] 09:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Erendis

:You are using old passages from the 30s or beggining of LotR writings that not necessary fit all the later narratives. Tolkien went back to write the Elders Days in the 50s and to polish LotR. His ideas on height had already changed.
:You can see passages like this: - ''"... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..."'' from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
:Even the ones you mentioned are from different "building" versions (1940 or 41) where the last one you see Chris use It in The Silmarillion, which is different from the ones you are mentioning. The last part ''"...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..."'' does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
:He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
:''<nowiki/>'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the '''Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent)''', which appears to have been '''about seven of our feet'''.’''
:Which is from the '''same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page:''' - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
:You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar ''"almost indistinguishable"''.
:The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
:Also, In the chapter "Beards" (1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he answers yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as saying this about royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - ''"The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to '''a stature a little above the average''', to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."''
:Which again matches with his letters such as this one (Letter 131) from 1951/52: - ''"The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became '''thus in appearance''', and even in powers of mind, '''hardly distinguishable from the Elves'''"''
:Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the '''two''' tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar? Tolkien on Turgon: - '''''"tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"'''''
:Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
:Thanks for reading. [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 23:15, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks a lot for your message and researches. I hope my (very very long, maybe too long ?) answer will be relevant. If not, I apologize : maybe it will be because I’m not an english speaker at home.

::First, I answer your last point :
::You write : Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the two tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar ? Tolkien on Turgon: - "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"
::Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
::=> It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one.

::Now, I answer other points :
::a) You write : You can see passages like this: - "... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..." from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
::=> Then the text goes : " '''But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature''', mighty among the Children of Eru, ready in mind, bold and steadfast."
::Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does.

::b) You write : Even the ones you mentioned are from different versions until the latest one you see Chris use in The Silmarillion, different from the one you are mentioning. The last part "...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..." does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
::=> Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist.

::c) You write : He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
::'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
::=> That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age.

::d) You write : Which is from the same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page: - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
::You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader ? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar "almost indistinguishable".
::=> It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body.
::In HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958), Bëorians are said to be "'''most like the Noldor''' and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory " ; we have here, (again ?), a comparison between Edain and Noldor based on psychological traits.

::e) You write : The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
::=> " broader " is not " taller " and "'''Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor]''', and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

::f) You write : Also, In the chapter "Beards"(1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he says yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as to say this about Royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - "The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."
::=> ok, this one seems to be quite a strong proof : how can be the royal house with elvish blood, taller than average Númenóreans, if Elves are smaller than them ?!
::Well, I see 2 answers :
::- on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)
::- on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people.

::As you can see, I’m not convince by your points except the last one which could be, however, understood in another way. I admit this other way is somewhat debatable (but I find it quite " Tolkienian " however), but it allows to unified all texts about this subject.

::See these texts and words (I know you know them, but with this selection, you will know about which parts I base my reflexion) :
::Text A : HOME 5 (Quenta Silmarillion p 276 §130 ; 1930-37)
::- Greatest was the house of Hador [...]. They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves; [...] Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader and their legs shorter and less swift. […] But the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; […] Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day ;

::Text B : HOME 5 (Fall of Numenor 2nd version p23 §3 ; 1928) & HOME 9 (Fall of Numenor 3e version p334 §3 ; 1940-41)
::- In the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; yet they were less fair and less wise than the Elves, though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were exceedingly tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of men in Middle-earth.

::Text C : HOME 11 (The Grey Annals p50 §135 ; 1951-58)
::- The men of Beor […] were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru […]. Like unto them were the woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high.

::Text D : HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958)
::- Greatest was the House of Hador [...], peer of Elven-lords. [...] they were tall and strong, [...] But the people of the House of Beor were [...] Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all Men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory [...]. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift. 

::Text E : NOME 3.11 Lives of Numenoreans ; 1965
::[Note 1] The Númenóreans were […] of the “House of Hador” and the “House of Bëor”. [...] The people of Bëor were on the whole [...] less tall and of less stalwart build; [...] The people of Hador were strong, tall [...]
::[…] the main mass of settlers came from the people of Bëor [...] was [...] in the North-west [...]. In most parts of the country Adûnayân was the native language of the people [...]

::Text F : UT 4.1 Note 7 ; unknown years because of this
::- There is no trace, either in the materials relating to the story of Aldarion and Erendis or elsewhere, of the presence of Drúedain in Númenor apart from the foregoing, save for a detached note which says that "the Edain who at the end of the War of the Jewels sailed over sea to Númenor contained few remnants of the Folk of Haleth, and the very few Drúedain that accompanied them died out long before the Downfall."

::Text G : HOME 12 (Late Writings, Of Dwarves and Men, p308 et 310 ; 1969)
::- […] among the Folk of Beor [...] Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare [...], and most were broader and more heavy in build. [46]
::46 Beren the Renowned had hair of a golden brown and grey eyes ; he was taller than most of his kin, but he was broad-shouldered and very strong in his limbs.
::In association with the Eldar, especially with the followers of King Finrod, they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, [47] [...]
::47 The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.
::But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War. [48]
::48 [With this account of the Folk of Beor and the Folk of Hador may be compared the description that my father wrote many years before in the Quenta Silmarillion, V.276, $130.]
::[...]
::Hobbits […] were called 'halflings' ; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.

::Text H : NOME (2.6 Descriptions of Characters, p194 " Heights " ; 1970)
::- [The Eldar] were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time [= when they lived in Valinor]. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than 6 ft. In height; their full-grown elfmen no less than 6 ft. 6, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.
::The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full-grown men were commonly 7 ft. tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent.

::Text I : NOME (2.5 "Beards" p187 ; 1972-73)
::- Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting (receding only slowly – as might be seen in Númenóreans of royal descent, in the matter of longevity also).
::[...]
::But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry [...]. The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average [...].

::It seems possible to gather all these elements into a global and coherent vision :
::1) There are size differences among the Elves :
::- Eldar are taller on average than other Elves (H)
::- Elfemales Eldar never measure less than 6 ft 6 and females rarely less than 6 ft (H)
::- the Noldor could be the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (C) ; they measure 7 ft average (G)

::2) Originally, there are differences in size among the Edain (G, E and others) :
::- the 1st House ("Bëorians") is not taller than the Eldar (C, A) because the Noldor are tall (C). The 1st House should therefore be at least the size of the other Eldar, if not a little taller, otherwise there would be no need to call on the Noldor specifically.
::- the 2nd House ("Halethians") is smaller than the 1st one, according to the most recent text (H) which talk about the subject. Previously, it was always stated that they were smaller, but we could understand that this comparison was with the 1st House, or with the 3rd House (C, A) ; anyway, it has always been said that they were smaller.
::- the 3rd House ( "Hadorians") is always described as tall (G, E, D, C, A), and often as taller than the 1st House (G, E, C, A). They are therefore, at a minimum, taller than the Eldar; an old text explicitly says that they are taller than the " Elves " (A). Afterwards, depending on how we understand this "taller than the Elves", we can consider the average of all the Elves (thus a value lower than the average size among the Eldar), or consider the race as a whole and that, therefore, the 3rd House would be on average, taller than the Noldor. Note that the text talks about "Elves" when we could use the term "Eldar". An element described below will allow us to favor one of these hypotheses.

::3) The differences between the 1st and 3rd Houses diminish over time because these two peoples mix (G).

::4) The population of Numenor is mainly made up of the 3rd House, then of the 1st House, and in a very small proportion, of the 2nd House (F, E).
::- Numenoreans average size is 7 ft, like the Noldor (H, G). An old text indicates that they are taller than the " Elves " (B). There again, considering the disparity in size among the Elves, we can understand that the Numenoreans are taller than the average elvish size (which is smaller than the average size of the Eldar only), while being as the same size as the Noldor who would be the tallest Elves (in Middle-earth).
::If we consider that the 1st House has an intermediate size between the Noldor and the other Eldar (therefore smaller than the Noldor ; see above, point 2 for this deduction), it would be a bit more coherent that the rest of the population (the 3rd House especially) is taller than the Noldor so that the mix brings the Numenorans to a size similar to that of the Noldor. (This is the element expected above to estimate the size of the 3rd House.)

::So all these elements and texts let me think that Hadorians are taller than Eldar, even of Noldorin origin.
::Are you still totally disagree ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 09:23, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
:::You write: " It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one."
:::R. Yes everyting prevents that, because It's not only Thingol, but also Turgon, which royal blood is later seen to make the Númenóreans taller. It's also my last point because It's a cumulative point, evidence.
:::You write: "Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does."
:::R. The quote compares Beor with the Eldar, the Noldor is added to specifically point out the similar height between the Noldor and Númenóreans, which are taller than any house of Men, you dispute that? You're again wrong here, the Hadoreans are compared to the house of Beör too, this is a evolution based revision from AB 2, pre LotR. That is how Tolkien goes by his writing.
:::You write: "Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist."
:::R. Then please sir, go to HoMe and again see that the final evolution of the tale (as described by Chris) is from circa 1958 "''Akallabêth'': The Downfall of Númenor". The reference is maintained but your quote is from circa 1940, where LotR was in Its initial phase and without revision, is not. This is a pre-LotR quote for all purposes.
:::You write: "That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age."
:::R. Because Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil?
:::You write: "It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body."
:::R. The elves having pointed ears to the point of Immediate discernment is false if having any at all. Tuor and Túrin (''Adanedhel)'' are exact examples of the note as they can harldly be told apart from the elves the strongest and tallest of the Edain. Hador, "'''''peer of elven lords"''''' followed by phsyical description of his house in LQS 2, circa 1958. See Túrin and his multiple descriptions, The Children of Húrin (Narn) circa 1955 as :
:::''- There he heard a strange tale that went among them. '''A tall and lordly Man, or an Elf-warrior''', some said, had appeared in the woods, and had slain one of the Gaurwaith, and rescued the daughter of Larnach whom they were pursuing.''
:::- ... ''and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and e'''ven among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor'''.''
:::Or Tuor, UT, 1950:
:::- ''"'''Then Voronwe led Tuor towards the light''', and as they drew near many Noldor, mail-clad and armed, stepped forward out of the darkness and surrounded them with drawn swords. '''And Elemmakil''', captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, '''looked long and closely at them'''.''
:::''<nowiki/>'This is strange in you, Voronwe/ he said. 'We were long friends. Why then would you set me thus cruelly between the law and my friendship? If you had led hither unbidden one of the other houses of the Noldor, that were enough. But you have brought to knowledge of the Way '''a mortal Man - for by his eyes I perceive his kin'''."''
:::"perhaps" no, your opinion is vague, the text is talking about physical characteristics, the note is for that - ''while their '''youth lasted''', the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.'' This was just another evidence among the many I brought, but the main point was to show you the evolution of the tale which you said "nothing contradicted" after citing a pre-LotR, QS quote, later directly revised in LQS 2 (circa 1958) by Tolkien, where the quote ''"They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves"'' is literally dropped. From ''"taller and stronger"'' to ''"almost indistinguishable"'' is ''a'' clear difference here, It's no different than Tolkien suddenly describing the house of Bëor as "almost indistinguisable" to house Hador except for the hair, after saying they are stronger (bigger) and taller, you would find It strange at minimum.
:::The quote ''"... '''for''' they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory".'' The word "for" is a clear indication of psychological, quite different from being alike '''ONLY''' while looking young...
:::You write: " broader " is not " taller " and "Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor], and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".
:::R. Another example of me showing you the evolution of the mythology, nothing else, that was the purpose of this comment as the people of Bëor went from lean to broad, different concepts even from LotR to be honest, not consistant in this case. Your quotes to justify the tallest of the children of Eru in Beleriand are from revised quotes pre-LotR time.
:::You write: "on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)"
:::"on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people."
:::R. Aragorn was still taller than Boromir (preserving the difference) for example, though not sure It means anything really. The point of the note is regarding beards which is not an specific "doom" from Eru, of being far from their now non-existent home, only height and lifespan are. In other words the elven gene regarding height and lifespan will be worthless once the Númenóreans are doomed in these two characterists, however being beardless is a non factor regarding the blessings of Eru. Also, the elven genes in regards to height diminishes too over time, for elves AND men. But considering your view, she is no different than in regards to men with far off Númenórean descent being taller than the norm, but in each passing generation getting smaller, the gene is there but is diminishing because of the doom and mixed blood from the next generations, but the gene of being about 7 feet tall in origin is still there, though doomed. Eventually even the elven gene in regards to beards (the more lasting one) will be gone.
:::No, It's directly mentioned that the elven gene makes you beardless (because they are) and live longer (because they live) but the topic of height is coincidentally and specifically NOT because the Royal Eldar were taller ? Ummm
:::SECOND PART
:::As I've already mentioned, your quotes from pre-LotR narratives are directly revised, the concepts there are not the same from the later quotes that you mention, they can not be put together in the name of consistency alone.
:::1) Seems reasoanable. But only first age and perhaps beggining of the second. Diminishment is still active in ME, specially by the TA, the age of Men. Noldor and Eldar are somewhat similar in height you can almost asumme they are of the same size category in regards to Tolkien's view, almost 7 feet tall.
:::2) It says ''"no greater than the stature of the Eldar"'' and your conclusion is that they are a little taller? The house of Beör is not particulary tall (if even tall) and definitely not at least 6 ft. 6 in height. Makes no sense.
:::Let me be clear or rather Tolkien be clear, the Eldar are all somewhat similar in height, even the Sindar could ''"hardly be told apart"'' (circa 1960, HoMe, vol 11, Quendi and Eldar) from the exiles. The Noldor being called specifically in that passage can't possibly mean the house of Bëor is almost 7 feet tall... That is why in '''Dwarves and Men''' essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages.
:::A) Yes the text from 1937, QS, pre-LotR, mentioned "elves" but probably meant the elves of Beleriand aka Eldar mostly. This text was later directly revised in LQS 2 circa 1958, towards no comparison to any elf at all. Why? Because in the evolution of the mythos the elves got taller, specially those in the first age. The only comparison we have later on (1969) is of the Hadoreans closely resembling the Eldar while they were not old, same text the Eldar are in general close to 7 feet tall.
:::3) True. And they all grew to the same average later.
:::4) Old text, revised and changed, no argument can be made here from that. The rest is already corrupted.
:::You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, '''text H''') and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. Those are simply elements described from their former Edain houses (when they were not mixed even) not that the differences in height remained as they all grew to almost 7 feet tall in average (the royals being taller), and still that would be an argument for Númenóreans not Hadoreans.
:::Númenóreans are taller than pure-blood Hadoreans, including those with Bëor descent. Where do you think the 7 feet height information comes from? from the survivors and elf-friends in ME out of Númenor as in '''text H''' Tolkien cites Arnorians from the House of Elendil, descent from house of Bëor, as being 7 feet frequently, creators of the word "halfling". So Númenóreans were equally blessed by Eru and their sons were taller than ANY of the sons born in ME (including those of house Hador that fled Beleriand or stayed in Eriador and never reached It), they are the Kings of Men. The blessing part here is important, everyone was blessed and got taller than they ever were as any people, the elements here of the Edain houses gave way to Númenórean's elements, though most were Hadoreans in ancestrality anyway and those even invaded Valinor. Elendil, the tall (nearly 8 feet tall) is an example of that for he was tecnically from the house of Bëor. Either you acknowledge that fact or says he is that tall exclusively because of Eldar genes, which would make my case even better.
:::So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is '''almost or about 7 feet tall''', the royals (which are from the house of Hador actually) and nobles of Númenor who are generally taller are 7 feet tall for sure on average (see Isildur description), but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is '''still almost or about 7 feet'''?? You are reading too much into It, too many assumptions to fit your narrative. If you are in Númenor you will grow in height an body and become a Númenórean, even if you are one of the very few with Halethian ancestry, you will get to 7 feet tall.
:::Your point is basically saying that the first house was over 6 ft 6 (but not quite 7') in height even before growing in Númenor and that their members could '''RARELY''' reach the height of anyone from the folk of Hador, which would make the Hadoreans the tallest of all Children of Eru by far (nearly 8 feet tall? after Númenor), yet still shorter than Thingol and Turgon or maybe even Argon (though maybe another concept) ...
:::I disagree more now than before to be honest. The discussion turned into Hadoreans being substantially over 7 feet tall and their later Númenórean's direct descendants maybe even taller? I mean we are too far off the mark here.
:::The heights in ME regarding LotR , appendices, and CONSISTENT essays with It:
:::Gandalf (5'6") lower than the average of men in TA < folk kin to the house of Haleth, short, broad and "swarthier" (Bree, Dunlendings, white mountains folk) <= house of Haleth < house of Bëor <<<< house of Hador (prime) <= Eldar in their prime (Sindar, Vanyar, Nandor, Falmari) <= Númenóreans = Noldor in their prime.
:::Royal Noldorin are the tallest of all in general. '''It is no coincidence''' that the tallest of the Children of Eru: Thingol, Turgon or maybe even Argon (Royals of 7 feet tall people) gave the genes (before diminishing) to the tallest members of the Númenóreans, those who are said to reach 7 feet tall more often than the others '''''"especially in the royal and noble houses"''''' (H). None whatsoever.
:::I appreciate your answer and your points I read them all carefully and your english is fine indeed. I would still suggest that the original edit in the page of the House of Hador, in regards to them being taller than the elves of Belerind, be edited. As none of their members are in fact the tallest, not in comparison to the first or even the second of the Eldar. You can at least see how debatable and inconsistent that statement can be, specially with post-LotR revisions, used largely in The Silmarillion.
:::Have a good day sir. If the next reply is as big as the prior I'm not sure I'll be able to answer, I've already spent hours of my weekend on this :) [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 19:18, 28 October 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Beleg

2025-10-11T01:15:10Z

Kaue Tadaieski:

== Mereth Aderthad ==

This article appears to imply it was Beleg who accompanied Mablung to the Mereth Aderthad. To my knowledge, it was actually Daeron rather than Beleg who accompanied Mablung there, though I might be mistaken. I don't want to change anything without my Silmarillion on hand, and since I'm on holiday, I figured I'd make a discussion topic about it. [[User:Emyn Duir|Emyn Duir]] ([[User talk:Emyn Duir|talk]]) 13:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

What does "later interpreted as a hobbit" mean in regards to that particular Image of Beleg?

Elven characteristics

2025-10-10T19:22:51Z

Kaue Tadaieski: /* Hair colour */ J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Peoples of Middle-earth, "XI. The Shibboleth of Fëanor", "Notes", Note 19, p. 357

[[File:Piotr Fox Wysocki - Last Elf.jpg|thumb|''Last Elf'' by Piotr Wysocki]]{{quote|The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth.|[[Gildor Inglorion]]<ref>{{FR|Three}}</ref>}}
The [[Elves]] were the fairest creatures in [[Arda]], a far more beautiful race than [[Men]], and generally tall (seldom less than six feet for elf women, no less than six and a half feet for elfmen).<ref>{{NM|P2vi}}, Heights, p. 194</ref><ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 107</ref> Among them, [[Calaquendi|those]] who had gone to [[Valinor]] were the fairest and had the greatest skill of body.

Elves had keener senses than [[Men]]. They were graceful yet strong, and were resistant to extremes of nature, illness and disease. However, many [[Noldor]] died at the crossings of [[Helcaraxë]].

Practical considerations, including a number of occasions where Men were mistaken for Elves (most notably [[Túrin|Túrin Turambar]]), suggest that the points of difference between Elves and Men must have been subtle.

==Hair colour==
Almost all of the [[Vanyar]] had yellow or deep golden hair. The name ''Vanyar'' means "the Fair" in [[Quenya]] with the primary sense of "pale" or "light-coloured" and the secondary sense of beautiful. The name was probably given to them by the Noldor and referred to the hair colour of the Vanyar, because the Noldor regarded it as beautiful.<ref name="Vanyar">{{WJ|C}}, Vanyar</ref>{{rp|382}}

The [[Noldor]] mostly had dark hair<ref name="Vanyar" />{{rp|382}}<ref name="Translation">{{App|Translation}}, footnote, p. 1137</ref> with the predominant colours being very dark brown or black<ref name="Noldo">{{PE|17}}, entry Q ''noldo'', p. 125</ref>. [[Maedhros]] and his brothers, the twins [[Amrod]] and [[Amras]] had rare red-brown hair<ref name="Sons">{{PM|XI7}}</ref>{{rp|353}}<ref>{{PM|Ros}}</ref>, that was brown with glints of coppery-red in it, a hair colour that they shared with their maternal grandfather [[Mahtan]]<ref>{{PM|XINotes}}, note 61, p. 366</ref> who had the ''epessë'' ''rusco'', which meant "fox"<ref name="Sons" />{{rp|353}}.

In general the [[Sindar]] had dark hair. Occasionally they had silver hair, especially the kin of Elwe, but it was not a common hair colour among the Sindar.<ref>{{WJ|C}}, Sindar, p. 384</ref>

[[Finarfin]], the youngest son of the first [[King of the Noldor]] [[Finwë]] with his second wife [[Indis]] of the [[Vanyar]], and generally his descendants had golden hair.<ref>{{NM|Hair}}, p. 186</ref><ref>{{PE|17}}, entry root '''GWAN''', p. 154</ref><ref name="Translation" /> Finarfin's daughter [[Galadriel]] displayed an extremely rare hair colour nowhere else observed; golden-silver hair, said to be remarkably beautiful ("the light of the [[Two Trees]], [[Laurelin]] and [[Telperion]], had been snared in her tresses").<ref name="Galadriel">{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

Another Noldo with noteworthy hair colour was [[Glorfindel]], whose hair is described as "shining gold" in colour.<ref name="Meetings" /> [[Idril]], the daughter of [[Turgon]], King of [[Gondolin]], had golden hair inherited from her mother, [[Elenwë]] of the Vanyar. [[Thranduil]], father of [[Legolas]] and a Sindarin Elf, is described as having "golden" hair in ''[[The Hobbit]]'',<ref>{{H|8}}</ref> but Legolas' own hair colour is not recorded. The golden hair colour is sometimes implied among the other Elves: [[Amroth]], a Sindarin Elf of Lothórien is one such case, whose hair is described as "bright" and shining like a spark of gold in the sun.<ref name="Galadriel" /> In ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', a very similar reference is made for an [[Galadhrim|Elf of Lothórien]], who had hair that "glinted like gold" in the sun.<ref>{{FR|Lorien}}</ref>

==Eye colour==
When Tolkien describes Elven eyes, they tend to be grey. This is certainly true of Lúthien and her descendants, including [[Elrond]] and his children ([[Arwen]], [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]]).<ref name="Meetings">{{FR|Meetings}}</ref><ref name="Beren">{{S|Beren}}</ref> [[Voronwë]], who guided the man [[Tuor]] to Gondolin, also had grey eyes.

Though he was half-Noldorin, [[Maeglin]] is said to have dark eyes (possibly from his father [[Eöl]], who was not of the Noldor), while [[Olwë]] (the brother of Lúthien's father [[Thingol]], and a Telerin king) had blue eyes. The eye colour of most other Elves is not mentioned, and so would be difficult to generalize.

==Pointed ears==
Whether Elvish ears were pointed or not is open for speculation,<ref name="Dunkerson">{{webcite|author=Conrad Dunkerson|articleurl=http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Ears.html|articlename=Do the Elves in Tolkien's stories have pointed ears?|dated=|website=[http://tolkien.slimy.com/ The Tolkien Meta-FAQ]|accessed=15 February 2012}}</ref><ref name="Martinez">{{webcite|author=[[Michael Martinez]]|articleurl=http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/09/21/do-tolkiens-elves-have-pointy-ears/|articlename=Do Tolkien’s Elves Have Pointy Ears?|dated=21 September 2011|website=[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/ Middle.earth.Xenite.org]|accessed=15 February 2012}}</ref> but it should be noted that there are no explicit references to pointed Elvish ears in ''[[The Hobbit]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' or ''[[The Silmarillion]]''.

In the ''[[The Etymologies|Etymologies]]'' (a linguistic manuscript from ca. 1937-8 published posthumously) it is stated that "the [[Quendi]]an ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [[Men|Human]]."<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 368 (roots LAS1 and LAS2)</ref><ref>{{VT|45a}}, p. 26</ref> In another linguistic manuscript (from ca. 1959-60), the [[Elvish]] connection between ears and leaves is again noted: "[[Amon Lhaw]]. ¶SLAS-, ear. ''[[lass|las]]'', leaf. ''slasū'' > Q ''[[hlaru]]'', S ''[[lhaw]]''."<ref>{{PE|17}}, p. 77</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=[[John Garth]]|articleurl=http://www.facebook.com/ml.martinez/posts/10155820042196038?comment_id=10155821234781038&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D|articlename=Facebook discussion|dated=3 February 2017|website=FB|accessed=5 February 2017}}</ref>

Answering to a question on [[Hobbits|Hobbit]] ears, [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'".<ref>{{L|27}}</ref> Some readers take this to mean that Elvish ears were pointed, while others argue that it is an ambiguous statement.<ref name="Dunkerson" /><ref name="Martinez" /><ref>{{webcite|author=Various|articleurl=http://www.facebook.com/groups/TheTolkienSociety.EducationalCharity/permalink/10154773899876068/|articlename=Tolkien Society Facebook group discussion|dated=|website=FB|accessed=5 February 2017}}</ref>

==Other characteristics==
The Elves were like [[Ainur]] in spirit; they loved all beauty of nature, especially water, the [[Sea]] and the [[stars]], since they were the first things they saw; as a consequence [[Ulmo]] and [[Varda]] were the [[Ainur]] closest to them. They were marked by an insatiable curiosity and a desire of learning and creating.

They detested all evil and were usually more resistant to being corrupted than Men, unless evil tricked them with fair form, like [[Annatar]]. Conversely, their work harmed evil, like [[lembas]] and the [[Elven rope]] that brought pain to [[Gollum]]'s skin. They were, however, susceptible to greed, pride and jealousy, as exemplified by the story of the House of [[Fëanor]], or the jealous and unjustified hatred of [[Saeros]] toward [[Túrin]].<ref name="UT2">{{UT|2}}</ref>

The Eldar could manipulate '''''[[sanwe-latya]]''''' ([[Quenya]] for "thought-opening" or "telepathy") which allowed them to communicate with thought ([[Ósanwe]]).

Like Men and Dwarves, Elves did sleep. In ''[[The Two Towers]]'', it says of [[Legolas]], "[He] already lay motionless, his fair hands folded upon his breast, his eyes unclosed, blending living night and deep dream, as is the way with Elves."<ref>{{TT|Riders}}, p. 442</ref><ref>{{HM|RC}}, citation of [[Letter to Mr Britten (5 November 1956)|J.R.R. Tolkien's letter]] to Mr. Britten on pp. 373-4: "''It is plainly suggested that Elves '''do 'sleep'<nowiki/>''', but not in our mode, having a different relation to what we call 'dreaming'.''"</ref>

Also, unlike Men, Elves were innately ambidextrous.<ref>{{VT|49a}}</ref>

Although Elves were generally considered the most powerful of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]], there are accounts that some Men from the Great Houses of the First Age were physically stronger, though less agile. It is told that the [[Helm of Hador|Dragon Helm]] was given to [[Fingon]], but "in all Hithlum no head and shoulders were found stout enough to bear the dwarf-helm with ease", so the High King gave it to [[Hador]], a Man.<ref name="UT2" />

{{References|n}}

[[Category:Elves]]

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-09T21:11:12Z

Kaue Tadaieski:

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-09T21:08:48Z

Kaue Tadaieski:

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-01T23:19:43Z

Kaue Tadaieski: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-01T23:15:13Z

Kaue Tadaieski: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */ Reply

Elven characteristics

2024-06-04T12:29:06Z

Kaue Tadaieski: Graceful is a more proper and encompassing description.

[[File:Piotr Fox Wysocki - Last Elf.jpg|thumb|''Last Elf'' by Piotr Wysocki]]{{quote|The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth.|[[Gildor Inglorion]]<ref>{{FR|Three}}</ref>}}
The [[Elves]] were the fairest creatures in [[Arda]], a far more beautiful race than [[Men]], and generally tall (seldom less than six feet for elf women, no less than six and a half feet for elfmen).<ref>{{NM|P2vi}}, Heights, p. 194</ref><ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 107</ref> Among them, [[Calaquendi|those]] who had gone to [[Valinor]] were the fairest and had the greatest skill of body.

Elves had keener senses than [[Men]]. They were graceful yet strong, and were resistant to extremes of nature, illness and disease. However, many [[Noldor]] died at the crossings of [[Helcaraxë]].

Practical considerations, including a number of occasions where Men were mistaken for Elves (most notably [[Túrin|Túrin Turambar]]), suggest that the points of difference between Elves and Men must have been subtle.

== Hair colour ==
Almost all of the [[Vanyar]] had light-coloured, yellow or deep golden hair. The name ''Vanyar'' means "the Fair" in [[Quenya]] with the primary sense of "pale" or "light-coloured" and the secondary sense of beautiful. The name was probably given to them by the Noldor and referred to the hair colour of the Vanyar, because the Noldor regarded it as beautiful.<ref>{{WJ|C}}, Vanyar</ref> Other Elves - including the [[Noldor]], [[Sindar]], and [[Avari]] - had dark brown or black hair, as in the cases of Finwë or Maeglin.<ref>{{PE|17}}, pp. 118, 125</ref><ref group=note>[[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] notes in one manuscript that "''no Elf had absolute black hair''" ({{PE|17}}, p. 125)</ref> [[Lúthien|Lúthien Tinúviel]] and her remote descendant [[Arwen|Arwen Undómiel]], both described as the fairest of all Elves, were dark haired. Additionally, a silver hair colour existed among the [[Teleri]] and in the royal houses of the Sindar, with [[Thingol]], [[Círdan]] and [[Celeborn]] all described as having silver hair.<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}}: Sindar</ref>

In some cases elves had atypical hair colour, either due to simple happenstance or intermarriage between clans. A prime example is the royal house of the Noldor and their descendants: [[Míriel Serindë]] of the Noldor, the first wife of [[Finwë]] and mother of [[Fëanor]], is described as having silvery hair.<ref>{{MR|P3I6}}</ref> Fëanor himself possessed "raven-dark" hair,<ref>{{S|Feanor}}</ref> but not all the sons of Fëanor shared this trait; [[Maedhros]] and the twins [[Amrod]] and [[Amras]] had auburn hair (though Amrod's hair grew darker after childhood).<ref name=Sons>{{PM|XI7}}</ref>{{rp|355}} This rare red-brown hair colour was a trait of Fëanor's wife [[Nerdanel]] and her father [[Mahtan]], who had the ''epessë'' Rusco 'fox' due to his hair colour.<ref name=Sons/>{{rp|353}} [[Finarfin]], the youngest son of Finwë, and his descendants had golden hair on account of Finwë's second wife, [[Indis]] of the Vanyar. Finarfin's daughter [[Galadriel]] displayed an extremely rare hair colour nowhere else observed; golden-silver hair, said to be remarkably beautiful ("the light of the [[Two Trees]], [[Laurelin]] and [[Telperion]], had been snared in her tresses").<ref name=Galadriel>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

Another Noldo with noteworthy hair colour was [[Glorfindel]], whose hair is described as "shining gold" in colour.<ref>{{FR|Meetings}}</ref> [[Idril]], the daughter of [[Turgon]], King of [[Gondolin]], had golden hair inherited from her mother, [[Elenwë]] of the Vanyar. [[Thranduil]], father of [[Legolas]] and a Sindarin Elf, is described as having "golden" hair in ''[[The Hobbit]]'',<ref>{{H|8}}</ref> but Legolas' own hair colour is not recorded. The golden hair colour is sometimes implied among the other Elves: [[Amroth]], a Sindarin Elf of Lothórien is one such case, whose hair is described as "bright" and shining like a spark of gold in the sun.<ref name=Galadriel/> In ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', a very similar reference is made for an [[Galadhrim|Elf of Lothórien]], who had hair that "glinted like gold" in the sun.<ref>{{FR|Lorien}}</ref>

==Eye colour==
When Tolkien describes Elven eyes, they tend to be grey. This is certainly true of Lúthien and her descendants, including [[Elrond]] and his children ([[Arwen]], [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]]).<ref name="Beren">{{S|Beren}}</ref><ref name="Meetings">{{FR|Meetings}}</ref> [[Voronwë]], who guided the man [[Tuor]] to Gondolin, also had grey eyes.

Though he was half-Noldorin, [[Maeglin]] is said to have dark eyes (possibly from his father [[Eöl]], who was not of the Noldor), while [[Olwë]] (the brother of Lúthien's father [[Thingol]], and a Telerin king) had blue eyes. The eye colour of most other Elves is not mentioned, and so would be difficult to generalize.

== Pointed ears ==
Whether Elvish ears were pointed or not is open for speculation,<ref name=Dunkerson>{{webcite|author=Conrad Dunkerson|articleurl=http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Ears.html|articlename=Do the Elves in Tolkien's stories have pointed ears?|dated=|website=[http://tolkien.slimy.com/ The Tolkien Meta-FAQ]|accessed=15 February 2012}}</ref><ref name=Martinez>{{webcite|author=[[Michael Martinez]]|articleurl=http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/09/21/do-tolkiens-elves-have-pointy-ears/|articlename=Do Tolkien’s Elves Have Pointy Ears?|dated=21 September 2011|website=[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/ Middle.earth.Xenite.org]|accessed=15 February 2012}}</ref> but it should be noted that there are no explicit references to pointed Elvish ears in ''[[The Hobbit]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' or ''[[The Silmarillion]]''.

In the ''[[The Etymologies|Etymologies]]'' (a linguistic manuscript from ca. 1937-8 published posthumously) it is stated that "the [[Quendi|Quendian]] ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [[Men|Human]]."<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 368 (roots LAS1 and LAS2)</ref><ref>{{VT|45a}}, p. 26</ref> In another linguistic manuscript (from ca. 1959-60), the [[Elvish]] connection between ears and leaves is again noted: "[[Amon Lhaw]]. ¶SLAS-, ear. ''[[lass|las]]'', leaf. ''slasū'' > Q ''[[hlaru]]'', S ''[[lhaw]]''."<ref>{{PE|17}}, p. 77</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=[[John Garth]]|articleurl=http://www.facebook.com/ml.martinez/posts/10155820042196038?comment_id=10155821234781038&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D|articlename=Facebook discussion|dated=3 February 2017|website=FB|accessed=5 February 2017}}</ref>

Answering to a question on [[Hobbits|Hobbit]] ears, [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'".<ref>{{L|27}}</ref> Some readers take this to mean that Elvish ears were pointed, while others argue that it is an ambiguous statement.<ref name=Dunkerson/><ref name=Martinez/><ref>{{webcite|author=Various|articleurl=http://www.facebook.com/groups/TheTolkienSociety.EducationalCharity/permalink/10154773899876068/|articlename=Tolkien Society Facebook group discussion|dated=|website=FB|accessed=5 February 2017}}</ref>

==Other characteristics==
The Elves were like [[Ainur]] in spirit; they loved all beauty of nature, especially water, the [[Sea]] and the [[stars]], since they were the first things they saw; as a consequence [[Ulmo]] and [[Varda]] were the [[Ainur]] closest to them. They were marked by an insatiable curiosity and a desire of learning and creating.

They detested all evil and were usually more resistant to being corrupted than Men, unless evil tricked them with fair form, like [[Annatar]]. Conversely, their work harmed evil, like [[lembas]] and the [[Elven rope]] that brought pain to [[Gollum]]'s skin. They were, however, susceptible to greed, pride and jealousy, as exemplified by the story of the House of [[Fëanor]], or the jealous and unjustified hatred of [[Saeros]] toward [[Túrin]]. <ref name=UT2>{{UT|2}}</ref>

The Eldar could manipulate '''''[[sanwe-latya]]''''' ([[Quenya]] for "thought-opening" or "telepathy") which allowed them to communicate with thought ([[Ósanwe]]).

Like Men and Dwarves, Elves did sleep. In ''[[The Two Towers]]'', it says of [[Legolas]], "[He] already lay motionless, his fair hands folded upon his breast, his eyes unclosed, blending living night and deep dream, as is the way with Elves."<ref>{{TT|Riders}}</ref>

Also, unlike Men, Elves were ambidextrous.<ref>{{VT|49a}}</ref>

Although Elves were generally considered the most powerful of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]], there are accounts that some Men from the Great Houses of the First Age were physically stronger, though less agile. It is told that the [[Helm of Hador|Dragon Helm]] was given to [[Fingon]], but "in all Hithlum no head and shoulders were found stout enough to bear the dwarf-helm with ease", so the High King gave it to [[Hador]], a Man.<ref name=UT2/>

{{References|n}}

[[Category:Elves]]

Círdan

2024-05-16T08:31:37Z

Kaue Tadaieski: /* Appearance */

{{sindar infobox
| name=Círdan
| image=[[File:Jef Murray - Cirdan.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Cirdan" by [[Jef Murray]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈkiːrdan]}}
| othernames=''Nōwē'' ([[Primitive Elvish|PE]])''Ciryatan'' ([[Quenya|Q]])''Cirdan of Lune''<ref name=Lune>{{PM|Elendil}}, ''The Northern Line of Arnor: the Isildurioni'', entry '''entry 25: Arvedui''', p. 195</ref><ref name=Moon>{{PM|Third}}, entry '''1975''', p. 232</ref>''Cirdan the Shipwright''<ref name=Aman/>
| titles=
| position=Lord of the [[Falas]]Master of the [[Grey Havens]]
| location=[[Cuiviénen]][[Sea of Rhûn]][[Falas]][[Isle of Balar]][[Grey Havens]][[Aman]] (after the departure of the [[Last Ship]])
| affiliation=[[Last Alliance of Elves and Men]][[White Council]][[Host of the West (Arnor)|Host of the West]]
| language=[[Common Eldarin]][[Sindarin]][[Quenya]][[Westron]]
| birth=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1105|n}}<ref name="LastWritingsN">{{PM|Last}}, note 29</ref>
| birthlocation=[[Cuiviénen]]<ref name="LastWritingsN"/>
| rule={{YT|1149}} - {{FA|473}} ([[Falas]]) {{FA|473}} - {{FA|587}} ([[Isle of Balar]]) {{SA|1}} - after {{FoA|171}}<ref name=prologue/> ([[Grey Havens]])
| sailedwest=After {{FoA|171}}, on the [[Last Ship]]<ref name=prologue>{{FR|Prologue}}</ref><ref name=eriador/>
| sailedfrom=[[Grey Havens]]
| age=at least 11,008 years<ref group=note>This figure is arrived at by taking the latest possible year of birth of Círdan ({{YT|1105}} - the year in which the [[Great Journey]] of the [[Eldar]] from [[Cuiviénen]] began), adding the 395 [[Valian years]] (where one Valian year = 9.582 solar years) + 590 solar years of the late [[First Age]] + 3,441 solar years of the [[Second Age]] + 3,021 solar years of the [[Third Age]] + 171 solar years of the beginning of the [[Fourth Age]] (since {{FoA|171}} is the earliest date in which the [[Last Ship]] bearing Círdan to [[Aman]] sailed away).Therefore, all these years combined give the approximate value of 11,008 years. However, readers should keep in mind that the above figure is the most conservative estimate, and that Círdan's actual age at the time of his departure from [[Middle-earth]] in the early Fourth Age is almost certainly greater than the one given above.</ref>
| notablefor=''[[#Significance|See below]]''
| house=
| parentage=Unknown (Círdan was a kinsman of [[Thingol]] and [[Olwë]];<ref name=Cirdan>{{PM|Last}}, "Círdan"</ref> he was also related to the mother of [[Voronwë]]<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}, p. 45</ref>)
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=Very tall<ref name="Havens"/>
| hair=Silver; with a long beard (in his old age)<ref name="Havens"/>
| eyes="Keen as stars"<ref name="Havens"/>
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
{{quote|As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said 'All is now ready.'|''[[The Return of the King]]'', "[[The Grey Havens]]"}}

'''Círdan''' was one of the highest and most noble of the [[Sindar]],<ref name=Cirdan/> lord of the [[Falas]] during the [[First Age]], and Master of the [[Grey Havens]] through the [[Second Age|Second]], [[Third Age|Third]], and [[Fourth Age]].

He was one of the wisest and most foresighted of the [[Elves]], and by the [[Second Age]], one of the oldest named [[Elves]] in [[Middle-earth]] to remain so throughout that age and into the [[Fourth Age]] as well.

He was also gifted [[Narya]], one of the [[Three Rings]], by [[Celebrimbor]] until he surrendered it to [[Gandalf]]. As the Lord of the Havens, he oversaw the departure of the Elves of Middle-earth to the West and eventually sought the [[Last Ship]] with his kinsman [[Celeborn]].{{fact}}

== History ==
=== First Age ===
==== Early life ====
Círdan, born '''Nōwē'''<ref name=Cirdan/>, was kin of both [[Elwë]] and [[Olwë]], the kings of the [[Teleri]].<ref name=Cirdan/> Of shipbuilding, whether by their first homes at [[Cuiviénen]] or when the [[Teleri]] dwelt by the [[Sea of Rhûn]], Nōwē was always the foremost and most skilled in the craft.<ref name="LastWritingsN"/> During the push westward, seeking to go to [[Valinor]], Nōwē and his followers kept going where most of his kin fell away throughout the journey.{{fact}}

Despite Nōwē's great eagerness to see the [[light of Valinor]] (his "greatest desire"),<ref name=Cirdan/> he loyally searched for [[Elwë]] upon his disappearance. Because of this, the [[Teleri]] missed the first trip on [[Tol Eressëa]] to [[Valinor]], on which went their kin, the [[Noldor]] and the [[Vanyar]]. They took for their king [[Olwë]], and while waiting for [[Ulmo]] to return for them, Nōwē headed the art of making and sailing ships, growing impatient. From this profession he took the name "'''Círdan'''" which means "shipwright" in [[Sindarin]]. The [[Teleri]] also developed a great friendship with [[Ossë]]. At the same time, although most of the Teleri had given up, Círdan sought [[Elwë]] longer and harder than most of his kin, partly because of his love for him and his allegiance.<ref name=Cirdan/>

Because of this, Círdan came to the shores too late during the second embarking of Eressëa.<ref name=Cirdan/> He came to the sands to find them departed, and as he stood forlorn he saw far-off a glimmer of light upon Eressëa as it vanished into the West over [[Belegaer]]. But into his heart came a message from the [[Valar]] which warned him that his ship could not endure the voyage, nor would any ship for many years, until the time when his work would be of utmost worth, remembered in song. Círdan answered in obeyance, and saw a vision of [[Vingilot|a ship]].<ref name=Cirdan/>

==== Lord of the Falas ====
===== Foundation =====
[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Cirdan, Lord of the Falathrim.jpg|225px|thumb|left|''Cirdan, Lord of the Falathrim'' by [[Peter Xavier Price]]]]
Círdan therefore remained with those Teleri who had chosen to stay east of the Sea for love of Ossë, and became their lord. The folk became known as the [[Falathrim]], "''people of the foaming shore''", and dwelt in the [[Falas]] by the sea. There they built many ships, and the mighty [[Havens of the Falas]], and found pearls which they sent to their king, [[Thingol]] of [[Doriath]], who was known as Elwë.<ref name="Sindar">{{S|Sindar}}</ref>

When [[Morgoth]] broke forth in the [[First Battle]] in {{YT|1497}}, Círdan was cut off and unable to come to Thingol's aid. Further, although Thingol prevailed with the help of the [[Laiquendi]], the Green-elves of [[Ossiriand]], the Falathrim were driven to the very edge of the sea, where they were besieged for some months, until the [[Return of the Noldor]] from Aman, when [[Fëanor]] struck at [[Morgoth]] from the north. The siege of the Falas was abandoned as the [[Orcs]] were ordered northward to help their master, where they were all destroyed by [[Celegorm]] and his forces, and the Falas was saved.<ref name="Sindar"/><ref name="return">{{S|Return}}</ref>

===== Wars of the Noldor =====
Círdan attended the [[Mereth Aderthad]] with many of his people, where he swore oaths of friendship with the Noldor.<ref name="return"/> Between Círdan and [[Finrod Felagund]], [[King of Nargothrond]], there was friendship and alliance, and with the aid of the [[Noldor]] the havens of [[Brithombar]] and [[Eglarest]] were built anew.<ref name="Belerian">{{S|Beleriand}}</ref>

When the tales began spreading (sown by [[Morgoth]]) of the [[Kinslaying of Alqualondë]], Círdan, being very wise even at that time, was greatly troubled, feeling that these rumors sprouted from great malice. Knowing the jealousy and dissention among the Noldor, he guessed that the malice was that of the kinslayers. Therefore he dutifully sent messages to his overlord Thingol, telling him all that he had heard. This resulted in Thingol banning the speaking of [[Quenya]] and greater strife between the Sindar and the Noldor.<ref>{{S|Noldor}}</ref>

Círdan made up for his lack of participation in the [[Wars of Beleriand|wars of the Noldor]] with his role in the [[Second Assault on Hithlum]], coming to the timely aid of [[Fingon]] when he was most needed. The ships of Círdan sailed up the [[Firth of Drengist]] in great stength and then struck the unsuspecting [[Orcs]] from the west, giving victory to the Elves.<ref name="Fingolfin">{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref>

Many years later, in {{FA|472}}, after the disastrous [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]], many fugitives came for shelter in Círdan's havens. The Falathrim mariners harassed the orcs in guerilla attacks from the sea. But it was only a matter of time before [[Morgoth]] attacked. Then came the disastrous [[Fall of the Falas]]. Though both [[Brithombar]] and [[Eglarest]] were strong, with mighty walls, both fell one at a time due to the impressive array of siege-masters Morgoth had in his train. Although Círdan's people fought valiantly, the walls were broken and most of the Falathrim killed or enslaved. [[Barad Nimras]] was cast down, and the Falas laid to waste. But Círdan and some of his followers escaped by sea, and he took with him the young [[Gil-galad]], one of the last of the princes of the Noldor. They came to the [[Isle of Balar]] and founded a new refuge, but kept a foothold at the [[Mouths of Sirion]], keeping ships hidden in the reeds there.<ref name="Fifth">{{S|Fifth}}</ref>

==== Refuge in Balar ====
[[Turgon]], the King of [[Gondolin]], receiving the dreadful news, requested that Círdan send mariners to seek [[Valinor]] and the aid of the [[Valar]]. Círdan built seven swift ships, and sent them westward. None returned, save for only [[Voronwë|one mariner]] of the [[Gondolindrim]] who was also his kinsman.<ref name="Tuor">{{UT|1}}</ref> The way to the West was closed.<ref name="Fifth"/>

Eventually Círdan served as messenger, when [[Ulmo]] delivered him a message for [[Orodreth]], the King of [[Nargothrond]], warning of the doom of Nargothrond, and ordering him to shut his gates and cast down the bridge. The warning went unheeded, resulting in the [[Fall of Nargothrond]] in {{FA|495}}.{{fact}}

After news came to Balar of the [[Fall of Gondolin]], [[Gil-galad]] was proclaimed [[High King of the Noldor]]. Círdan soon after became a fast friend of the young half-elf [[Eärendil]] son of [[Tuor]] and [[Idril]], who had grown up essentially under his shadow, and was apprenticed to him. Círdan aided Eärendil in building the ship [[Vingilot]], giving him advice and help. Círdan doubtless remembered his vision, and this ship was indeed a fulfillment of it.<ref name=Cirdan/>

Círdan and Gil-galad came with their ships from Balar too late to prevent the disastrous [[Third Kinslaying]], when the [[Mouths of Sirion|Havens of Sirion]] were ambushed and many fell. But Eärendil was not there, rather on a voyage, and the [[Silmaril]] of [[Beren]] and [[Lúthien]] had been spirited away by [[Elwing]] his wife. Thus, wielding the Silmaril, Eärendil came to [[Valinor]] and found the forgiveness of the [[Valar]].<ref name="Earendil">{{S|Earendil}}</ref> From that time on, Círdan was given foresight surpassing that of any of the Elves,<ref name=Cirdan/> perhaps some special grace of the Valar for his deeds in this world-changing episode (like the return of [[Glorfindel]], who also contributed significantly).{{fact}}

After the [[War of Wrath]], Círdan, heeding the bidding of the Valar long ago, once more obediently abstained from finding his heart's desire and going West, but with a small following remained in [[Middle-earth]].

=== Second Age ===
The continents were shifted, but Círdan still took up his abode by the sea, at the [[Grey Havens]], which the Elves built in the newly-formed [[Gulf of Lune]] whence the [[Eldar]] could sail the [[Straight Road]], but most of them were unwilling at first to forsake the lands they fought in and preferred to linger there.<ref name=rings>{{S|Rings}}</ref>

At the very beginning of the [[Second Age]], Círdan was instrumental in devising and overseeing the construction of the boats that were used to transport the remnants of the [[Edain]] to their new land, which would later become the realm of [[Númenor]].<ref name=Edain>{{NM|P3xiii}}, p. 339</ref>

Círdan personally elected the Elven captains and helmsmen who were in charge of transporting the Edain to Númenor, and since those boats were small, it took a great number of such boats to transfer all of the Edain and their possessions - a process that took at least 50 years, and which only ended when the Valar instructed Círdan to cease any future migration of Men to the island.<ref name=Edain/>

Many centuries later, in {{SA|600}}, Círdan welcomed the friendly and then-unfallen [[Númenóreans]], making friends with [[Vëantur]], chief of the mariners of [[Tar-Elendil]], and later teaching [[Tar-Aldarion|Aldarion]] his grandson of ships (both management and construction) and seaside architecture,<ref name="Wife">{{UT|Wife}}</ref> doubtless being the foremost authority on both.{{fact}}

Círdan advised against the creation of the [[Rings of Power]] when [[Sauron|Annatar]] came, but, like Galadriel, his counsel went unheeded in the midst of the ambition of the [[Gwaith-i-Mírdain]]. Nevertheless, when the [[Three Rings]] were hidden, Celebrimbor had appointed him to inherit one of them and so, Círdan received [[Narya]], the Ring of Fire.<ref name="rings"/> [[Sauron]], having revealed himself in the [[Sack of Eregion|destruction of Eregion]] and empowered by [[the One Ring]] he had forged, [[sack of Eregion|invaded]] [[Eriador]] in the same blow; however, he dared not attempt to take Círdan's [[Mithlond]] or [[Lindon]], fearing they were too strong because they had the help of the [[Númenóreans]].<ref name="rings"/>

Círdan joined the [[Last Alliance of Elves and Men]], and fought alongside [[Gil-galad]]. Many fell there, including [[Gil-galad]] and [[Elendil]]. After the battle, with Elrond, he urged [[Isildur]], Elendil's heir, to throw the captured One Ring into [[Orodruin]], where it would be unmade, but Isildur refused.<ref name="rings"/><ref name="Council">{{FR|Council}}</ref>

=== Third Age ===
{{blockquote|Take this ring, Master… for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the [[Belegaer|Sea]], and I will dwell by the grey shores until the [[Last Ship|last ship]] sails. I will await you.| Círdan to Gandalf, ''[[Appendix B]]''}}

[[File:Alystraea - Cirdan.jpg|250px|thumb|right|''Cirdan'' by [[:Category:Images by Alystraea|Alystraea]]]]
After the [[War of the Last Alliance]] and the death of Gil-galad, Círdan remained the Lord of the Havens<ref name="rings"/>. For more than a thousand years they went undisturbed,<ref name="AppB2">{{App|B2}}</ref> but at around {{TA|1050}}, a shadow began to lengthen. It was at this time the [[Istari]], sent by the [[Valar]], came. Círdan was the most foresighted of all Elves in Middle-earth, and he alone knew the true purpose of the Istari.<ref name="AppB2"/> He also saw deep into the future of Gandalf, and gave him [[Narya]], his greatest possession and one of the most secret and sought-after treasures in the world.<ref name="rings"/>

Throughout the [[Angmar War]], the Elves of Lindon under Círdan supported [[Arnor]]. They assisted King [[Arveleg I|Arveleg]] and the men of [[Cardolan]] drive off the [[Hill-men]] from the [[Weather Hills]]. Later, with Círdan’s help, Arveleg's young son, [[Araphor]], drove [[Angmar]]'s armies from [[Fornost]] and the [[North Downs]]. Combining forces with [[Rivendell]], and the [[Galadhrim]] who joined them from beyond the [[Misty Mountains]], they subdued Angmar for some time.<ref name=eriador>{{App|Eriador}}</ref>

In {{TA|1975}}, Círdan sent Elven sailors from Lindon on a ship to [[Forochel]] to rescue the lost king [[Arvedui]]. The crew endured a perilous journey, but Arvedui rashly attempted to return that winter, and all aboard perished. The next year, Círdan and the Elves of Lindon [[Host of the West (Arnor)|joined]] with the remnants of [[Arnor]] in the victorious [[Battle of Fornost]].<ref name=eriador/><ref>{{App|Gondor}}</ref> Later, Círdan took control of the abandoned [[palantíri|Elendil Stone]] on [[Emyn Beraid]], which could gaze into the [[Tol Eressëa|lost west]] and was without link to the other ''[[palantíri]]''.<ref name="Palantiri">{{UT|Palantiri}}</ref>

Nothing more is mentioned of his actions until the [[War of the Ring]] in {{TA|3018}} and later in {{TA|3021|n}}. [[Galdor of the Havens|Galdor]] was his messenger to [[Rivendell]] and attended the [[Council of Elrond]], speaking with authority on his lord's behalf.<ref name="Council"/>

The last mention of Círdan came with the end of the Third Age. When the Ringbearers came to Mithlond, Círdan greeted them before the gates. Although [[Gandalf]], [[Galadriel]], and [[Elrond]] passed west on the [[White Ship|ship]] he had built for them, Círdan seems to have remained for a time.{{fact}}

=== Later history ===
{{main|Last Ship}}
Círdan maintained the haven at least into the early [[Fourth Age]], but it was recognized that eventually, its purpose would reach an end when no more Eldar wished to cross the [[Sea]]. At that time, Círdan would abandon the Grey Havens and finally travel the [[Straight Road]] himself.<ref name=eriador/> On some unknown date, he sailed west aboard the [[Last Ship]] with his kinsman [[Celeborn]], but when he did so, he took with him the last living memory of the [[Elder Days]] in [[Middle-earth]].<ref name=prologue/>

== Etymology ==
{{Pronounce|Cirdan.mp3|Ardamir}}
''Círdan'' is a [[Sindarin]] name. It means "Shipbuilder"<ref>{{PE|17}}, p. 27</ref><ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, entries '''KIR-''' and '''TAN-'''</ref> or "Shipwright"<ref>{{PM|Last}}, "Círdan", p. 385</ref>.

The [[Quenya]] cognate was '''''Ciryatan''''' (pron. {{IPA|[ˈkirʲatan]}}).<ref>{{S|Appendix}}, entry "kir-''</ref>

== Other names ==
Círdan's original name was '''''Nōwē'''''. According to [[Paul Strack]], it was a [[Primitive Elvish]] name, but its meaning is unclear.<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Paul Strack]]|articleurl=https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2331717483.html|articlename=✶ ''Nōwē'' pn.|website=Eldamo|accessed=10 October 2023}}</ref>

He was also called '''''Cirdan the Shipwright''''',<ref name=Aman>{{AA|70}}, p. 85</ref> as well as '''''Cirdan of Lune'''''<ref name=Lune/><ref name=Moon/> (in both instances, without accent over the letter ''i'', though).

== Appearance ==
In the last years of the Third Age, Círdan appeared old save for his eyes which "''were keen as stars''"; he also had a long beard.<ref name="Havens">{{RK|Havens}}, p. 1030</ref> Likely, he had grown a beard since having reached his [[Elven life cycle#"Cycles of life" and aging|third cycle of life]].<ref>{{VT|41b}}, p. 9</ref>

== Significance ==
[[File:David Greset - Cirdan the Carpenter.jpg|130px|thumb|left|''Cirdan the Carpenter'' by [[:Category:Images by David Greset|David Greset]]]]
Círdan had a profound effect upon the course of Middle-earth history. He was a loyal servant and friend of [[Elwë]], sacrificing his heart's desire in search of him.<ref name=Cirdan/>

This loyalty and sense of duty shows up numerous times over the course of history, including his second sacrifice in his submission to the [[Valar]],<ref name=Cirdan/> and his sending of troubling and potentially destructive rumors to his overlord Thingol.

He was also the most foresighted of the Elves, a consequence of the gift from the Valar.<ref name="AppB2"/><ref name=Cirdan/> He conceivably saved Elven civilization with the founding of the havens at the [[Mouths of Sirion]],<ref name="Fifth"/> and with the fostering of both [[Gil-galad]] and [[Eärendil]].<ref name="Earendil"/> His precious gift of [[Narya]] to [[Gandalf]] was also timely and valuable.<ref name="AppB2"/> He was clearly favored by [[Ulmo]], seen by the number of messages passed through him.

== Genealogy ==
<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | |F|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|7| | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | |D|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|7| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | |:| | | | | | | |:| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | THI | | OLW | | ELM | | | CÍR | | | | | | UNK |y| ARA |THI=[[Thingol]] ''d. {{FA|503}}''|OLW=[[Olwë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|ELM=[[Elmo]] ''b. {{YT}}''|CÍR='''CÍRDAN''' ''b. {{YT}}''|UNK=''unknown mother''|ARA=[[Aranwë]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | |}}

{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | VOR | | |VOR=[[Voronwë]] ''b. {{FA}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>

== Other versions of the legendarium ==
=== ''The Lord of the Rings'' drafts ===
The character of Círdan is a fairly late addition to [[Tolkien]]'s [[legendarium]], with his first appearance in the drafts of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' (dating to the early [[1940]]s) being in an outline of what would become the eleventh chapter, ''[[The Palantír]]'', of the first book in ''[[The Two Towers]]''.<ref name=Wright>{{WR|1|VI}}, pp. 76-7</ref>

The name ''Círdan'' in this outline was spelled as ''Cirdan'', and in one other instance as ''Kirdan''.<ref name=Wright/>

Nonetheless, in a draft for the chapter ''[[Many Partings]]'', the term ''Círdan'' is used.<ref>{{SD|Partings}}, p. 67</ref>

=== ''The Etymologies'' ===
However, Círdan's first appearance in the legendarium as a whole seems to be in ''[[The Etymologies]]'' (dating from the late [[1930]]s), where his name was instead given as ''C(e)irdan'' ("shipbuilder" in [[Noldorin]]), with the ''(e)'' probably indicating a development from the Noldorin word ''[[ceir]]'' ("ship"). The name ''Ceirdan'' was itself changed from an earlier form ''Certhan''.<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, entry '''TAN-''', p. 390</ref>

=== Later legendarium ===
In a late text called ''[[The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor]]'' (c. [[1969]]), there appears a passage in which Tolkien briefly considered Círdan as being one of the Noldor,<ref name=Weird>{{NM|P3xxii}}, pp. 387-8</ref> in a text explaining the origin of the name ''[[Belfalas]]'':

{{blockquote|There appears, however, in the beginning of the Second Age, to have been a group of Sindar who went south. They were a remnant, it seems, of the people of Doriath, who harboured still their grudge against the Noldor and left the Grey Havens because these and all the ships there were commanded by '''Círdan (a Noldo)'''.|''[[The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor]]'', ''"Belfalas"'' <ref name=Weird/>}}

However, [[Carl Hostetter]] later comments, quoting [[Christopher Tolkien]]'s own commentary on the text:

{{blockquote|The manuscript page ends mid-sentence, and without reaching an explanation of the element ''Bel-''. Christopher Tolkien writes: "It was perhaps a purely experimental extension of the history, at once abandoned; but the assertion that Círdan was a Noldo is very strange. This runs clean counter to the entire tradition concerning him — yet it is essential to the idea sketched in this passage. Possibly it was his realization of this that led my father to abandon it in mid-sentence."|''[[The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor]]'', "Commentary on the text ''Belfalas''" <ref name=Weird/>}}

At no other point in the legendarium was Círdan ever considered a Noldo.

== Portrayal in adaptations ==
{{Gallery
|title=Círdan in adaptations
|height=150
|width=250
|lines=2
|File:Decipher - Círdan.jpg|Círdan in [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]
|File:SBG - Cirdan.jpeg|Círdan in [[The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Círdan.jpg|Círdan in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
}}

'''2001: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]'':'''
:His role as lieutenant of Gil-galad is given to [[Elrond]] instead (Elrond was Gil-galad's herald in the books). He does, however, appear very briefly in Galadriel's Monologue at the start of the movie, in the very brief shot of the three elven ringbearers.

'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]'':'''
:Círdan briefly appears as Frodo and Bilbo make their trip to the lands of the West.

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Círdan appears in several flashbacks depicting the [[War of the Last Alliance]].

'''2022: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power]]'':'''
:It has been confirmed that Círdan will appear in the series' second season.<ref>{{webcite|author=|articleurl=https://time.com/6205027/cirdan-the-rings-of-power-season-2/|articlename=Exclusive: This Fan-Favorite Character Is Joining the Second Season of The Rings of Power|dated=15 August 2022|website=Time.com|accessed=4 January 2023}}</ref>

{{references|notes}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Cirdan}}

{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
| race=sindar
| house=
| born=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1105|n}}
| died=Sailed west after {{FoA|171}}
}}
{{seq
| pvac=None
| prev=New position
| list=Lord of the [[Falas]]
| dates={{YT|1149}} – {{FA|473}}
| nvac=None
| next=[[Falas]] overrun by [[Morgoth]]'s forces
}}
{{seq
| pvac=None
| prev=New position
| list=Lord of the [[Grey Havens]]
| dates={{SA|1}} – after {{FoA|171}}
| nvac=None
| next=Sailed west on the [[Last Ship]]
}}
{{seq
| pvac=None
| prev=''[[Celebrimbor]], as its creator''
| list=[[Three Keepers|Keeper]] of [[Narya]]
| dates=c. {{SA|1600}} - c. {{TA|1000}}
| next=[[Gandalf]]
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Fourth Age characters]]
[[Category:Mariners]]
[[Category:Moriquendi]]
[[Category:Nelyar]]
[[Category:Noldorin names]]
[[Category:Rulers in Middle-earth]]
[[Category:Second Age characters]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[de:Círdan]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:elfes:teleri:sindar:cirdan]]
[[fi:Círdan]]