Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Forums:Blocking spammers

2011-06-04T10:51:25Z

Kerchi: /* Autoconfirmed Permissions */ response to mith, page create works!

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



Are we not blocking spammers now? --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 14:50, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:They seem to be hit-and-run, one-edit accounts. And besides, even if we block a few, there will be others. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 15:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:Ling123 has appeared as a particularly vicious spammer, creating pages with Tolkien-like titles but putting in spam.
:I don't know how to affect spamming; the following are random ideas:
:* Enforce a delay between signing up and getting editing privileges.
:* Require those who want to edit to fill in a talk page.
:* Require ID approval.
:-- Gamling 06:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::He's just probably not an actual person. And he doesn't make new pages, he vandalizes existing ones.
::You can revert his edits by clicking "undo". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 07:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I have only been on this site for a few days but I have noticed how bad the spamming is. Setting up user rights so that new members can only edit after filling out their respective talk page is a good idea (and something I would like to implement on my wiki), however, this might deter genuine members who only want to make minor edits to existing pages and not want to bother with their own user and user talk pages.

Certainly, spam image uploads are a problem too. Uploads can be blocked until a member has reached say 10 edits; this would cut down on spamming images uploads and save the admins a little time having to delete everything that is 'not related'.

I recently installed the recaptcha extension, which is quite useful because it can be used for triggers such as page creation and edits, however, this does not stop spammers if they are persistent and the downside is that unless you add a member to say a 'trusted' usergroup, they will get the captcha box every time they make an edit. I am still exploring this and even though my site is nowhere near as busy as this one I hardly ever get spammers.

The only decent way to stop spammers is for people to require a membership from the admins (after their details have been scrutinised) but this also takes a lot of time. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:I make sure I always block the spammers as on a couple of rare occasions an unblocked one has returned.
:The easy solution to this is to only allow page creation and image uploads once a user is "autoconfirmed" - this would stop 95% of spam. However, to become autoconfirmed you need to register your e-mail address; currently, TG seems unable to send out e-mails, a problem which has lasted a year - if we implemented this now it would block out new users (such as Kerchi and Gamling) as well as the spammers. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Maybe we could install that if you want to create an account you have to fill in a question like: "What is the name of the Elf/Wizard/Dwarf in the Fellowship/Company of the Ring" or "What is the name of the son of Denethor II?". Just like some sites have as question "What is the capital of France?" or "What is 7 - 3?". Personally I don't think we should add Captcha, since it doesn't work on all computers/internet browsers (I, once, couldn't create an account on a site because the Captcha didn't work for me).
::If the problem with e-mails could be solved, that would be a good option too.
::I think it's good to block spammers (like [[User:Mith|Mith]] does). --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 12:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
:::I quite like the idea of using a question for account creation but they can't be too complicated as newbies to Tolkien's work will have to spend a fair amount of time searching for the answer --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::Our long-term aim is to install reCAPTCHA so anonymous users are able to edit. However, last time I tried to install it, it didn't work; I think we need to upgrade the software. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
::::It didn't work for me until 1.16 was installed. Bear in mind though that some bots are sophisticated enough to read the various letter images. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::Requiring new registrees to fill in (by which I asume Gamling to mean ‘create’) a talk page before being allowed to edit isn’t going to work, as a talk page with Hyarion’s welcome message is automatically created as soon as a new user is created upon registration. And even if that were not so, a talk page could still be created by other editors placing a warning.
:::::I’d like to see (re)CAPTCHA working again, though I do realise it is not going to keep out all spammers. And a problem is that, in order to maintain roughly the same effectivity in keeping out spammers, CAPTCHA will have to continue getting more difficult, until even ''bona fide'' humans will have problems with it. Amroth’s proposal of requiring new registrees to answer one or two reasonably simple Tolkienological questions seems both more sympathetic and more to the point here.
:::::I’m also coming round slowly but steadily to the opinion that maybe we shouldn’t want to return to allowing anonymous editors. I know it’s a sort of basic characteristic of a wiki, but I'm coming to the conviction that we’re too thinly spread here to police TG against spam and vandals ''and'' have a quality drive ''and'' prevent our fundamental nature (i.e. primacy of the books and their author, while at the same time being rather completist inclusionists of adaptations as long as they are clearly distinguished as such, and taking fully into account ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'', not necessarily subordinating it to ''[[The Silmarillion]]'') from eroding all at the same time. I think we would do ourselves a disservice if we opened up to anonymous edits at the moment and that we need a significantly larger community of editors, of a good quality and willing to subscribe to the stated principles, with some more sysops as well, before we can open up again. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::Both of the issues you've raised are probably for the meeting.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

==Autoconfirmed Permissions==
I've made it so there is a minimum number of edits and minutes before a user is made "autoconfirmed" and can create/move pages and upload images; this will hopefully cut out a lot of spammers. Can ''everyone'' in this thread please let me know that you are unaffected by these changes? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:Impressive solution! --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 16:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Look's good. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I can edit but can't create a page. What edit count have you set before page creation is enabled? --{{User:Kerchi/Sig}}

::::Guys, I still can't create a new page yet, how many edits do I need before this is available? I need to create my autosig so the wikicode doesn't keep clogging up the text. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::You should be able to create new pages as you meet the time and edit requirements; what error are you getting? On the issue of you sig, is it possible you could change the colours so they are less similar to mine? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:05, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::No problem, colours changed. I don't really like using bold colours for signatures such as bright red or green etc. and the new colour chosen is one I use in a table on my site. If still too similar let me know. Regarding the error message I get, it says: ''No such action. The action specified by the URL is invalid. You might have mistyped the URL, or followed an incorrect link. This might also indicate a bug in the software used by Tolkien Gateway.'' --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 10:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::::What URL are you going to? [[Special:Contributions/Test|As you can see]] I just created a page with User:Test and there were no problems. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::Typing <nowiki>User:Kerchi/autosig</nowiki> takes me to the 'article does not exist page'. Clicking on create goes to the error page at the following address: [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?action=create&prefix=&preload=&editintro=&title=Kerchi%2Fautosig&create=Create] --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 10:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::When I click that URL I get the same error; our "createbox" there is broke and has been broken for a long time. Just click the "create an article with that title" link (or "Create" in the top right corner) instead. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::Many thanks Mith, that worked, sorry to have so troublesome about the matter. --{{User:Kerchi/Sig}} 10:51, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:Just to confirm, a couple of spammers have got through but that was due to an oversight on my part. No spammer will be uploading or creating pages again. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::I have checked, by creating [[Amarthan]], that I ''can'' create pages at the moment. (I know that it’s an improper redirect, but I’ve explained at [[Talk:Amarthan|it's Talk page]].) I notice, BTW, that I’m indeed an autoconfirmed user. I used to be one, as I had confirmed my previous e-mail address, but I’ve had to change my e-mail address since the wiki became unable to send confirmation e-mails, so I have not been able to confirm the new e-mail address. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I think being emailconfirmed never leaves you (and that's just a feature of the software).--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

User:Kerchi/autosig

2011-06-04T10:47:45Z

Kerchi: autosig page created

Forums:Blocking spammers

2011-06-04T10:36:25Z

Kerchi: /* Autoconfirmed Permissions */ response to mith

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



Are we not blocking spammers now? --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 14:50, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:They seem to be hit-and-run, one-edit accounts. And besides, even if we block a few, there will be others. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 15:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:Ling123 has appeared as a particularly vicious spammer, creating pages with Tolkien-like titles but putting in spam.
:I don't know how to affect spamming; the following are random ideas:
:* Enforce a delay between signing up and getting editing privileges.
:* Require those who want to edit to fill in a talk page.
:* Require ID approval.
:-- Gamling 06:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::He's just probably not an actual person. And he doesn't make new pages, he vandalizes existing ones.
::You can revert his edits by clicking "undo". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 07:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I have only been on this site for a few days but I have noticed how bad the spamming is. Setting up user rights so that new members can only edit after filling out their respective talk page is a good idea (and something I would like to implement on my wiki), however, this might deter genuine members who only want to make minor edits to existing pages and not want to bother with their own user and user talk pages.

Certainly, spam image uploads are a problem too. Uploads can be blocked until a member has reached say 10 edits; this would cut down on spamming images uploads and save the admins a little time having to delete everything that is 'not related'.

I recently installed the recaptcha extension, which is quite useful because it can be used for triggers such as page creation and edits, however, this does not stop spammers if they are persistent and the downside is that unless you add a member to say a 'trusted' usergroup, they will get the captcha box every time they make an edit. I am still exploring this and even though my site is nowhere near as busy as this one I hardly ever get spammers.

The only decent way to stop spammers is for people to require a membership from the admins (after their details have been scrutinised) but this also takes a lot of time. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:I make sure I always block the spammers as on a couple of rare occasions an unblocked one has returned.
:The easy solution to this is to only allow page creation and image uploads once a user is "autoconfirmed" - this would stop 95% of spam. However, to become autoconfirmed you need to register your e-mail address; currently, TG seems unable to send out e-mails, a problem which has lasted a year - if we implemented this now it would block out new users (such as Kerchi and Gamling) as well as the spammers. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Maybe we could install that if you want to create an account you have to fill in a question like: "What is the name of the Elf/Wizard/Dwarf in the Fellowship/Company of the Ring" or "What is the name of the son of Denethor II?". Just like some sites have as question "What is the capital of France?" or "What is 7 - 3?". Personally I don't think we should add Captcha, since it doesn't work on all computers/internet browsers (I, once, couldn't create an account on a site because the Captcha didn't work for me).
::If the problem with e-mails could be solved, that would be a good option too.
::I think it's good to block spammers (like [[User:Mith|Mith]] does). --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 12:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
:::I quite like the idea of using a question for account creation but they can't be too complicated as newbies to Tolkien's work will have to spend a fair amount of time searching for the answer --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::Our long-term aim is to install reCAPTCHA so anonymous users are able to edit. However, last time I tried to install it, it didn't work; I think we need to upgrade the software. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
::::It didn't work for me until 1.16 was installed. Bear in mind though that some bots are sophisticated enough to read the various letter images. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::Requiring new registrees to fill in (by which I asume Gamling to mean ‘create’) a talk page before being allowed to edit isn’t going to work, as a talk page with Hyarion’s welcome message is automatically created as soon as a new user is created upon registration. And even if that were not so, a talk page could still be created by other editors placing a warning.
:::::I’d like to see (re)CAPTCHA working again, though I do realise it is not going to keep out all spammers. And a problem is that, in order to maintain roughly the same effectivity in keeping out spammers, CAPTCHA will have to continue getting more difficult, until even ''bona fide'' humans will have problems with it. Amroth’s proposal of requiring new registrees to answer one or two reasonably simple Tolkienological questions seems both more sympathetic and more to the point here.
:::::I’m also coming round slowly but steadily to the opinion that maybe we shouldn’t want to return to allowing anonymous editors. I know it’s a sort of basic characteristic of a wiki, but I'm coming to the conviction that we’re too thinly spread here to police TG against spam and vandals ''and'' have a quality drive ''and'' prevent our fundamental nature (i.e. primacy of the books and their author, while at the same time being rather completist inclusionists of adaptations as long as they are clearly distinguished as such, and taking fully into account ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'', not necessarily subordinating it to ''[[The Silmarillion]]'') from eroding all at the same time. I think we would do ourselves a disservice if we opened up to anonymous edits at the moment and that we need a significantly larger community of editors, of a good quality and willing to subscribe to the stated principles, with some more sysops as well, before we can open up again. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::Both of the issues you've raised are probably for the meeting.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

==Autoconfirmed Permissions==
I've made it so there is a minimum number of edits and minutes before a user is made "autoconfirmed" and can create/move pages and upload images; this will hopefully cut out a lot of spammers. Can ''everyone'' in this thread please let me know that you are unaffected by these changes? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:Impressive solution! --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 16:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Look's good. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I can edit but can't create a page. What edit count have you set before page creation is enabled? --{{User:Kerchi/Sig}}

::::Guys, I still can't create a new page yet, how many edits do I need before this is available? I need to create my autosig so the wikicode doesn't keep clogging up the text. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::You should be able to create new pages as you meet the time and edit requirements; what error are you getting? On the issue of you sig, is it possible you could change the colours so they are less similar to mine? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:05, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::No problem, colours changed. I don't really like using bold colours for signatures such as bright red or green etc. and the new colour chosen is one I use in a table on my site. If still too similar let me know. Regarding the error message I get, it says: ''No such action. The action specified by the URL is invalid. You might have mistyped the URL, or followed an incorrect link. This might also indicate a bug in the software used by Tolkien Gateway.'' --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 10:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::::What URL are you going to? [[Special:Contributions/Test|As you can see]] I just created a page with User:Test and there were no problems. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::Typing <nowiki>User:Kerchi/autosig</nowiki> takes me to the 'article does not exist page'. Clicking on create goes to the error page at the following address: [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?action=create&prefix=&preload=&editintro=&title=Kerchi%2Fautosig&create=Create] --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 10:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:Just to confirm, a couple of spammers have got through but that was due to an oversight on my part. No spammer will be uploading or creating pages again. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::I have checked, by creating [[Amarthan]], that I ''can'' create pages at the moment. (I know that it’s an improper redirect, but I’ve explained at [[Talk:Amarthan|it's Talk page]].) I notice, BTW, that I’m indeed an autoconfirmed user. I used to be one, as I had confirmed my previous e-mail address, but I’ve had to change my e-mail address since the wiki became unable to send confirmation e-mails, so I have not been able to confirm the new e-mail address. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I think being emailconfirmed never leaves you (and that's just a feature of the software).--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Forums:Blocking spammers

2011-06-04T10:21:06Z

Kerchi: /* Autoconfirmed Permissions */

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



Are we not blocking spammers now? --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 14:50, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:They seem to be hit-and-run, one-edit accounts. And besides, even if we block a few, there will be others. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 15:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:Ling123 has appeared as a particularly vicious spammer, creating pages with Tolkien-like titles but putting in spam.
:I don't know how to affect spamming; the following are random ideas:
:* Enforce a delay between signing up and getting editing privileges.
:* Require those who want to edit to fill in a talk page.
:* Require ID approval.
:-- Gamling 06:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::He's just probably not an actual person. And he doesn't make new pages, he vandalizes existing ones.
::You can revert his edits by clicking "undo". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 07:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I have only been on this site for a few days but I have noticed how bad the spamming is. Setting up user rights so that new members can only edit after filling out their respective talk page is a good idea (and something I would like to implement on my wiki), however, this might deter genuine members who only want to make minor edits to existing pages and not want to bother with their own user and user talk pages.

Certainly, spam image uploads are a problem too. Uploads can be blocked until a member has reached say 10 edits; this would cut down on spamming images uploads and save the admins a little time having to delete everything that is 'not related'.

I recently installed the recaptcha extension, which is quite useful because it can be used for triggers such as page creation and edits, however, this does not stop spammers if they are persistent and the downside is that unless you add a member to say a 'trusted' usergroup, they will get the captcha box every time they make an edit. I am still exploring this and even though my site is nowhere near as busy as this one I hardly ever get spammers.

The only decent way to stop spammers is for people to require a membership from the admins (after their details have been scrutinised) but this also takes a lot of time. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:I make sure I always block the spammers as on a couple of rare occasions an unblocked one has returned.
:The easy solution to this is to only allow page creation and image uploads once a user is "autoconfirmed" - this would stop 95% of spam. However, to become autoconfirmed you need to register your e-mail address; currently, TG seems unable to send out e-mails, a problem which has lasted a year - if we implemented this now it would block out new users (such as Kerchi and Gamling) as well as the spammers. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Maybe we could install that if you want to create an account you have to fill in a question like: "What is the name of the Elf/Wizard/Dwarf in the Fellowship/Company of the Ring" or "What is the name of the son of Denethor II?". Just like some sites have as question "What is the capital of France?" or "What is 7 - 3?". Personally I don't think we should add Captcha, since it doesn't work on all computers/internet browsers (I, once, couldn't create an account on a site because the Captcha didn't work for me).
::If the problem with e-mails could be solved, that would be a good option too.
::I think it's good to block spammers (like [[User:Mith|Mith]] does). --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 12:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
:::I quite like the idea of using a question for account creation but they can't be too complicated as newbies to Tolkien's work will have to spend a fair amount of time searching for the answer --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::Our long-term aim is to install reCAPTCHA so anonymous users are able to edit. However, last time I tried to install it, it didn't work; I think we need to upgrade the software. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
::::It didn't work for me until 1.16 was installed. Bear in mind though that some bots are sophisticated enough to read the various letter images. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::Requiring new registrees to fill in (by which I asume Gamling to mean ‘create’) a talk page before being allowed to edit isn’t going to work, as a talk page with Hyarion’s welcome message is automatically created as soon as a new user is created upon registration. And even if that were not so, a talk page could still be created by other editors placing a warning.
:::::I’d like to see (re)CAPTCHA working again, though I do realise it is not going to keep out all spammers. And a problem is that, in order to maintain roughly the same effectivity in keeping out spammers, CAPTCHA will have to continue getting more difficult, until even ''bona fide'' humans will have problems with it. Amroth’s proposal of requiring new registrees to answer one or two reasonably simple Tolkienological questions seems both more sympathetic and more to the point here.
:::::I’m also coming round slowly but steadily to the opinion that maybe we shouldn’t want to return to allowing anonymous editors. I know it’s a sort of basic characteristic of a wiki, but I'm coming to the conviction that we’re too thinly spread here to police TG against spam and vandals ''and'' have a quality drive ''and'' prevent our fundamental nature (i.e. primacy of the books and their author, while at the same time being rather completist inclusionists of adaptations as long as they are clearly distinguished as such, and taking fully into account ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'', not necessarily subordinating it to ''[[The Silmarillion]]'') from eroding all at the same time. I think we would do ourselves a disservice if we opened up to anonymous edits at the moment and that we need a significantly larger community of editors, of a good quality and willing to subscribe to the stated principles, with some more sysops as well, before we can open up again. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::Both of the issues you've raised are probably for the meeting.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

==Autoconfirmed Permissions==
I've made it so there is a minimum number of edits and minutes before a user is made "autoconfirmed" and can create/move pages and upload images; this will hopefully cut out a lot of spammers. Can ''everyone'' in this thread please let me know that you are unaffected by these changes? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:Impressive solution! --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 16:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Look's good. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I can edit but can't create a page. What edit count have you set before page creation is enabled? --{{User:Kerchi/Sig}}
::::Guys, I still can't create a new page yet, how many edits do I need before this is available? I need to create my autosig so the wikicode doesn't keep clogging up the text. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::You should be able to create new pages as you meet the time and edit requirements; what error are you getting? On the issue of you sig, is it possible you could change the colours so they are less similar to mine? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:05, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::No problem, colours changed. I don't really like using bold colours for signatures such as bright red or green etc. and the new colour chosen is one I use in a table on my site. If still too similar let me know. Regarding the error message I get, it says: ''No such action. The action specified by the URL is invalid. You might have mistyped the URL, or followed an incorrect link. This might also indicate a bug in the software used by Tolkien Gateway.'' --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 10:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:Just to confirm, a couple of spammers have got through but that was due to an oversight on my part. No spammer will be uploading or creating pages again. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::I have checked, by creating [[Amarthan]], that I ''can'' create pages at the moment. (I know that it’s an improper redirect, but I’ve explained at [[Talk:Amarthan|it's Talk page]].) I notice, BTW, that I’m indeed an autoconfirmed user. I used to be one, as I had confirmed my previous e-mail address, but I’ve had to change my e-mail address since the wiki became unable to send confirmation e-mails, so I have not been able to confirm the new e-mail address. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I think being emailconfirmed never leaves you (and that's just a feature of the software).--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

User:Kerchi/Sig

2011-06-04T10:13:47Z

Kerchi: changed colour of sig

User talk:Kerchi

2011-06-04T09:58:53Z

Kerchi: /* Meeting */ reply to meeting attendance

{{usertalk}}

Welcome to TG, Kerchi! I hope you'll enjoy your time here (and do try to join our [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings|meetings]], if you'd like).--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 17:38, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
:Welcome, Kerchi. I hope you will like your time here. If there's anything you want to ask, feel free to leave a message on my [[User talk:Amroth|talk page]]. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
::Thanks Morgan and Amroth, appreciate the welcome. If I have any questions I will be sure to ask. This is a great site with so much information to whet any fan's appetite; When I get time, between work and working on my own site (not Tolkien related), I plan to read through some of the articles I have an interest in. Morgan, I have just been looking into the meetings and how they work; it is new to me and from reading a couple of transcripts, it looks like you have all the angles covered with the to-do lists, although I see there are recurring problems, namely the spamming issue, but then a site such as this with a lot of traffic is bound to attract spammers from all over. --[[User:Kerchi|Kerchi]] 21:43, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

== Meeting ==

Hi Kerchi; do you think you'll be able to attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 June 2011|the meeting]] this Sunday? It's held in [[TG:Chat|Chat]] and we'll be all be chatting! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
:I won't be able to this month after checking the time it is going to commence BST; I hope to next month after I have built up enough courage to edit a few pages, especially being a newbie, I'd feel like I was imposing on those of you who are used to this well-oiled machine. I will check out the transcript though afterwards. Do you need me to say I am not attending on the meetings page? --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Forums:Blocking spammers

2011-06-04T09:50:26Z

Kerchi: /* Autoconfirmed Permissions */ can't create pages yet due to changes in permissions

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



Are we not blocking spammers now? --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 14:50, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:They seem to be hit-and-run, one-edit accounts. And besides, even if we block a few, there will be others. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 15:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

:Ling123 has appeared as a particularly vicious spammer, creating pages with Tolkien-like titles but putting in spam.
:I don't know how to affect spamming; the following are random ideas:
:* Enforce a delay between signing up and getting editing privileges.
:* Require those who want to edit to fill in a talk page.
:* Require ID approval.
:-- Gamling 06:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::He's just probably not an actual person. And he doesn't make new pages, he vandalizes existing ones.
::You can revert his edits by clicking "undo". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 07:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I have only been on this site for a few days but I have noticed how bad the spamming is. Setting up user rights so that new members can only edit after filling out their respective talk page is a good idea (and something I would like to implement on my wiki), however, this might deter genuine members who only want to make minor edits to existing pages and not want to bother with their own user and user talk pages.

Certainly, spam image uploads are a problem too. Uploads can be blocked until a member has reached say 10 edits; this would cut down on spamming images uploads and save the admins a little time having to delete everything that is 'not related'.

I recently installed the recaptcha extension, which is quite useful because it can be used for triggers such as page creation and edits, however, this does not stop spammers if they are persistent and the downside is that unless you add a member to say a 'trusted' usergroup, they will get the captcha box every time they make an edit. I am still exploring this and even though my site is nowhere near as busy as this one I hardly ever get spammers.

The only decent way to stop spammers is for people to require a membership from the admins (after their details have been scrutinised) but this also takes a lot of time. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:I make sure I always block the spammers as on a couple of rare occasions an unblocked one has returned.
:The easy solution to this is to only allow page creation and image uploads once a user is "autoconfirmed" - this would stop 95% of spam. However, to become autoconfirmed you need to register your e-mail address; currently, TG seems unable to send out e-mails, a problem which has lasted a year - if we implemented this now it would block out new users (such as Kerchi and Gamling) as well as the spammers. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:13, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Maybe we could install that if you want to create an account you have to fill in a question like: "What is the name of the Elf/Wizard/Dwarf in the Fellowship/Company of the Ring" or "What is the name of the son of Denethor II?". Just like some sites have as question "What is the capital of France?" or "What is 7 - 3?". Personally I don't think we should add Captcha, since it doesn't work on all computers/internet browsers (I, once, couldn't create an account on a site because the Captcha didn't work for me).
::If the problem with e-mails could be solved, that would be a good option too.
::I think it's good to block spammers (like [[User:Mith|Mith]] does). --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 12:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
:::I quite like the idea of using a question for account creation but they can't be too complicated as newbies to Tolkien's work will have to spend a fair amount of time searching for the answer --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::Our long-term aim is to install reCAPTCHA so anonymous users are able to edit. However, last time I tried to install it, it didn't work; I think we need to upgrade the software. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:28, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
::::It didn't work for me until 1.16 was installed. Bear in mind though that some bots are sophisticated enough to read the various letter images. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 21:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::Requiring new registrees to fill in (by which I asume Gamling to mean ‘create’) a talk page before being allowed to edit isn’t going to work, as a talk page with Hyarion’s welcome message is automatically created as soon as a new user is created upon registration. And even if that were not so, a talk page could still be created by other editors placing a warning.
:::::I’d like to see (re)CAPTCHA working again, though I do realise it is not going to keep out all spammers. And a problem is that, in order to maintain roughly the same effectivity in keeping out spammers, CAPTCHA will have to continue getting more difficult, until even ''bona fide'' humans will have problems with it. Amroth’s proposal of requiring new registrees to answer one or two reasonably simple Tolkienological questions seems both more sympathetic and more to the point here.
:::::I’m also coming round slowly but steadily to the opinion that maybe we shouldn’t want to return to allowing anonymous editors. I know it’s a sort of basic characteristic of a wiki, but I'm coming to the conviction that we’re too thinly spread here to police TG against spam and vandals ''and'' have a quality drive ''and'' prevent our fundamental nature (i.e. primacy of the books and their author, while at the same time being rather completist inclusionists of adaptations as long as they are clearly distinguished as such, and taking fully into account ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'', not necessarily subordinating it to ''[[The Silmarillion]]'') from eroding all at the same time. I think we would do ourselves a disservice if we opened up to anonymous edits at the moment and that we need a significantly larger community of editors, of a good quality and willing to subscribe to the stated principles, with some more sysops as well, before we can open up again. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::Both of the issues you've raised are probably for the meeting.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

==Autoconfirmed Permissions==
I've made it so there is a minimum number of edits and minutes before a user is made "autoconfirmed" and can create/move pages and upload images; this will hopefully cut out a lot of spammers. Can ''everyone'' in this thread please let me know that you are unaffected by these changes? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:Impressive solution! --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 16:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::Look's good. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I can edit but can't create a page. What edit count have you set before page creation is enabled? --{{User:Kerchi/Sig}}
::::Guys, I still can't create a new page yet, how many edits do I need before this is available? I need to create my autosig so the wikicode doesn't keep clogging up the text. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 09:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

:Just to confirm, a couple of spammers have got through but that was due to an oversight on my part. No spammer will be uploading or creating pages again. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

::I have checked, by creating [[Amarthan]], that I ''can'' create pages at the moment. (I know that it’s an improper redirect, but I’ve explained at [[Talk:Amarthan|it's Talk page]].) I notice, BTW, that I’m indeed an autoconfirmed user. I used to be one, as I had confirmed my previous e-mail address, but I’ve had to change my e-mail address since the wiki became unable to send confirmation e-mails, so I have not been able to confirm the new e-mail address. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 03:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

:::I think being emailconfirmed never leaves you (and that's just a feature of the software).--{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Forums:Blocking spammers

2011-06-02T21:31:21Z

Kerchi: reply to autoconfirm permissions

Forums:Blocking spammers

2011-06-02T21:21:51Z

Kerchi: replied to amroth and mith

User:Kerchi

2011-06-02T21:12:07Z

Kerchi: added a short piece about me

{{user infobox
| name=Kerchi
| position=Newbie
| language=[[wikipedia:British English|British English]]
| location=[[wikipedia:East Sussex|East Sussex]], [[wikipedia:United Kingdom|UK]]
| age=37
| gender=Male
| height=6'0
| hair=Brown
| eyes=Blue/grey
| website=[http://border-regiment-forum.com/wiki Border Regiment Wiki]
| userboxes={{user en-N}}
{{user lore-1}}
{{User ref}}
{{user opera}}

}}

===About me===
My name is Chris (although I use Kerchi for everything) and I am new to the written works of Tolkien. I have known about his work, especially [[The Hobbit]], since an early age but did not show an interest until recent times, although I have always loved The Hobbit simply because it is an incredible piece of literature that can be enjoyed by the young and senior alike. My favourite movie trilogy has to be [[The Lord of the Rings]] and because of this cinematic feast I began to show an interest in the works of Tolkien.

I have started (twice) [[The Silmarillion]] but still haven't finished yet, getting halfway before needing to take a break; I am not going to give up just yet. I enjoyed [[The Children of Hurin]] and have found [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]]'s [[The Atlas of Middle-earth]] and invaluable guide.

Anyway, I live on the south coast in East Sussex in the UK and work in the local hospital. I like to read, work on my website, off-road mountain-biking and playing the guitar, although I haven't progressed that far but I can still knock out a few tunes. I also have an interest in history, something I hated in school.

In the future I hope to make some contributions although with the members here already, and with my basic knowledge of Tolkien's works, I am not sure how I can contribute to the already first-class information available; plus I am new here and very shy!

Forums:Blocking spammers

2011-06-02T09:04:00Z

Kerchi: comment and suggestion regarding spammers

User talk:Hyarion

2011-05-30T22:54:22Z

Kerchi: /* TG is a thoroughly enjoyable read! */ reply added

{| style="border: 1px solid #aaaaaa; background-color: #f9f9f9; color: black; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 1em; padding: 0.2em; float: right; clear: right;"
|-
!align="center"|[[Image:archive.png|50px|Archive]] Archives
----
|-
|
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 1|2005]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 2|2006]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 3|2007]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 4|2008]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 5|2009]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 6|2010]]     
|}
{{usertalk}}

== valimar ==

Hi Hyarion, I'm one of the Founders & Bureaucrats of [http://wiki.valimar.ir/index.php?title=%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D9%87%D9%94_%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%84%DB%8C valimar] (and also one of [http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B1:PHoBiA the admins] in [http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D9%87%D9%94_%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%84%DB%8C Persian Wikipedia]). I'm glad that you setup us as your sister-site. I'll setup reciprocal links to TG articles as soon as possible. Best Regards -- [[User:PHoBiA|PHoBiA]] 19:41, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
``

== Missing Gandalf edit in recent changes ==

The database seems to have behaved strangely when I edited [[Gandalf]]. I removed the occurrences of the word "human" from the article, and couldn't load the page. However, looking in the article history, my edit is there, but it doesn't appear in "Recent changes". And strangely enough, a search for "human" on TG still yields the article "Gandalf", although the word "human" cannot be found (any longer) in the article. Maybe the issue will disappear once the database reloads or refreshes! :-) --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:11, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

::While you're at it, another strange page is the [[Portal:Locations/Category Tree]]. This page, which has been changed to a redirect, still seems to carry an imprint in the database somehow. E.g., searching on "human" on TG makes "Portal:Locations/Category Tree" show up. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:28, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

== what is a Tolkien Mile ? ==

It seems to me that there is something wrong with using a standard (english) mile for Tolkiens Maps. The result is a Middle Earth which is too small. Tolkien used a lot of History and Myth from other parts of Northern Europe. Could Tolkiens Mile actually be the 'Irish' mile which was used by the English in Ireland for centuries. I will get more detail if needed but I think 1 'irish' mile is equal to 1.27 'english' miles. If this were the case Middle Earth would be 27% greater in size which would be an improvement as there are a number of references to distance which only make sense if the 'english' mile is increased substantially. The 'swedish' mile is equal to 6 'english' miles which is too big. {{unsigned|Nuadamor}} (00:01, 22 May 2011).

:If I remember correctly he used a fictional mile, the Númenorean mile. I don't remember how big that is (but I think it was, the Númenorean feet at least was), but I think it can be found at [[Unfinished Tales]]. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 14:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

::At Oxonmoot some years ago [[Alex Lewis]] actually gave a talk saying he thought that the scale of the maps was incorrect (sadly, I can't remember by how much, or indeed, in which direction). The Númenóreans had the ''[[lár]]'' which was very slightly shorter than our league (three miles); there is no indication that Tolkien intended to use anything other than the English statute mile (defined in law since 1592) in the maps.

::(I should point out, there is the "Old English mile" which was variously longer than the statute mile - about 1.3 statute miles - but why would Tolkien logically use a different measure?) --{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

:::Tolkien’s discussion of the [[Lár|Númenórean league]] refered to by Amroth can be found in the appendix ‘Númenórean linear measures’ in {{UT|Gladden}} - it is 5000 [[ranga]]r of about 38 (imperial) inches, and therefor nearly equal to one statute league of 5280 yards (= three statute miles). It seems this can be taken as evidence that, certainly around the time of the revision of [[The Lord of the Rings]], Tolkien was regarding distances in his [[legendarium]] as described (approximately) in statute leagues and miles.
:::However, in {{HM|RC}}, (on pp. 22-23 in the 2005 hardbound edition), Tolkien’s notes on two attempts at devising a Hobbit system of linear measures can be found. In one of these attempts he arrives as longest measure at a ‘long mile, or gait mile’, or ‘yong-mile or longmile’ of 2,304 imperial yards. That is certainly very nearly equal to 1.3 statute miles, and so these attempts may be related to the ‘Old English mile’ mentioned by Mith. (There is also a ‘(short) mile, or pace-mile’ of half this length, 1,152 imperial yards.)
:::But in the other attempt he arrives at a different type of mile, namely one of 1,600 imperial yards, thus being somewhat shorter than the statute mile. And it is only in this attempt that the term ‘league’ is mentioned as containing 3 of these miles. That is in my opinion an obstacle to any supposition that a ‘long’ or ‘Old English’ mile could have been intended in the text of The Lord of the Rings. In fact, all linear measures used in that work are such as were in normal use in the imperial system when Tolkien grew up: inch, foot, ell, fathom, furlong, mile and league; and of these only foot, mile and league turn up in his attempts at a Hobbit system of measures.
:::And finally, I have never found any reason to consider Tolkien’s Middle-earth as mapped too small. I would be interested in knowing why [[Alex Lewis]] thinks so (or at least thought so a couple of years ago). In fact had Mith said so a week earlier, I would have asked Alex, since I had ample opportunity to discuss it with him over the last weekend. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 04:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

::::I would have been unable to posts that had not yet been made! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::Well, of course! I was trying to imply that I wished Nuadamor had posed his question earlier, and you had then replied as promptly as you in fact did, but I got a bit convoluted and cut too much from my sentence. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 04:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

== TG is a thoroughly enjoyable read! ==

Hyarion, just wanted to say that this is an excellent Tolkien site and it has been a pleasure to read some of the articles I have come across so far. I can see that a great deal of time and effort has gone into making the site what it is today, a professional-looking, informative and well-built engine of encyclopaedic Tolkien knowledge. I have even been inspired for my own wiki (not Tolkien related) by the way articles and templates have been put together. The skin is amazing too; wish I had something unique instead of the plain vector skin.

Do keep up the good work. [[User:Kerchi|Kerchi]] 10:13, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

:Hi Kerchi, thanks so much for your compliments! It's in feedback like yours which makes it all worth it. We look forward to seeing you around. If you have any questions or suggestions feel free to let me know. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:02, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
::You're welcome. I can see that quality has been an important driving force for those who have put this site together and believe me I know how difficult it can be what with running my own wiki, so I intend to keep having a look around and read a few more articles. --[[User:Kerchi|'''Kerchi''']]  [[User talk:Kerchi|'''talk''']] | [[Special:Contributions/Kerchi|'''contribs''']] | [[Special:Editcount/Kerchi/Edits|'''edits''']] 22:54, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

User:Kerchi/Sig

2011-05-30T22:37:10Z

Kerchi: created new signature

User talk:Kerchi

2011-05-30T21:43:44Z

Kerchi: reply to welcome messages

User:Kerchi

2011-05-30T11:49:54Z

Kerchi: user page created using the user infobox

User talk:Hyarion

2011-05-30T10:13:00Z

Kerchi: /* TG is a thoroughly enjoyable read! */ new section

User talk:Kerchi

2011-05-29T18:47:35Z

Kerchi: Adding welcome message to new user's talk page