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War of the Elves and Sauron

2025-01-12T00:54:28Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Sauron Routed */ some grammatical corrections and expanded the description of the forces that reinforced Sauron prior to the Battle of Gwathlo

{{expansion}}
{{War
|previous=[[War of Wrath]]
|next=[[War of the Last Alliance]]
|image=[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Celebrimbor's Death.jpg|300px]]
|name=War of the Elves and Sauron
|begin={{SA|1693}}
|end={{SA|1701}}
|place=Throughout [[Eriador]], but centred on the land of [[Eregion]]
|result=Victory for the [[Elves]] and allies
*[[Eregion]] destroyed
*[[Sauron]] defeated and driven from Eriador
*Founding of [[Imladris]]
|battles=[[Sack of Eregion]], [[First Siege of Imladris]], [[Battle of the Gwathló]]
|side1=[[Elves of Eregion]] [[Elves of Lindon]] [[Elves of Lórinand]] [[Númenóreans]] [[Dwarves of Khazad-dûm]]
|side2=Forces of [[Sauron]]
|commanders1=[[Gil-galad]] [[Celebrimbor]] † [[Elrond]] [[Celeborn]] [[Amroth]] [[Tar-Minastir|Minastir]] [[Ciryatur]] [[Durin III]]
|commanders2=[[Sauron]]
}}
The '''War of the Elves and Sauron''', also known as '''the first war with Sauron''',<ref>{{UT|Wife}}</ref>{{rp|270}} was a great war fought in the [[Second Age]] between the forces of [[Sauron]] and the Elves in [[Eriador]] and their allies.

==Background==
{{seealso|Rings of Power}}
During the Second Age, [[Sauron]] planned to corrupt the Elves and put them under his dominion. In his guise as [[Annatar]], he attempted to seduce the [[Eldar]]. Both [[Gil-galad]] and [[Elrond]] rejected him from Lindon, but the [[Gwaith-i-Mírdain|Smiths of Eregion]] were won over. Sauron instructed the [[Elves of Eregion]] in the making of the [[Rings of Power]], including aiding the forging of the [[Nine Rings|Nine]] and the [[Seven Rings|Seven]]. Sauron returned to Mordor and secretly constructed the [[One Ring]] to enslave the bearers of the other Rings.<ref name="Concerning">{{UT|Concerning}}</ref> Unbeknownst to him, the Elves had made [[Three Rings]] of their own, so that when Sauron took up his own Ring, they understood his intentions and his centuries of planning came to nothing.<ref name="rings">{{S|Rings}}</ref>

==History==
===Prelude===
What he could not control by subtlety and deception, Sauron resolved to destroy by force. He obtained the allegiance of Men that lived in lands that were adjacent to Mordor, including in regions of the [[White Mountains]] and in [[Calenardhon]]. The [[Númenóreans]] who occupied the [[Ethir Anduin]] and the coasts of [[Lebennin]] discovered his activities and informed Gil-galad. However, Sauron did not allow the tribes of eastern Men to come in sight of the Númenóreans or of Men of good will that lived in Eriador, Calenardhon, the Vales of Anduin, Greenwood the Great or in the plains between that wood and Mordor, to avoid the risk that his gathering of armies in the east would be discovered. Sauron gathered and trained his armies for approximately ninety years before he felt ready to attack. He was unable to gather as many troops as he hoped for, because powerful enemies in the East and South opposed his efforts.<ref name="Delay">{{NM|P3xviii}}</ref> Among those enemies were the two [[wizards]] [[Morinehtar]] and [[Rómestámo]]. Their task was to stir up rebellion and to cause dissension and disarray in the East. Otherwise the forces of the East would have outnumbered those of the West in the Second Age and in the Third Age.<ref name="PMLast">{{PM|Last}}, The Five Wizards, pp. 384-85</ref> In {{SA|1695}}<ref name="SA">{{App|SA}}</ref> Sauron's vast armies passed through Calenardhon, invaded Eriador through the [[Gap of Rohan]], and turned north to attack Eregion. As a result of the Númenóreans having cut down many of the trees of [[Minhiriath]] and [[Enedwaith]], the people inhabiting these lands welcomed Sauron's conquest and let him pass. Sauron left a force at Tharbad, and his armies marched on to Eregion <ref name="Concerning" />

===Destruction of Eregion===
{{main|Sack of Eregion}}
[[File:Kimberly - Celebrimbor.jpg|left|200px|thumb|''Celebrimbor'' by [[:Category:Images by Kimberly|Kimberly]]]]
[[Celeborn]] led a force from Eregion, and defeated the first wave of Sauron's army. However, he could not hold them off indefinitely. Celeborn's force was overwhelmed and driven back to [[Ost-in-Edhil]]
When news of the invasion reached [[Gil-galad]], he sent a force commanded by [[Elrond]] from [[Lindon]] to reinforce Eregion, and sent word to [[Númenor]] for aid.<ref name="Concerning" /> Elrond's forces were held back by Sauron's greater host and Eregion was devastated. In {{SA|1697}}, [[Ost-in-Edhil]] fell, with [[Celebrimbor]] himself leading a last desperate defence on the steps of the [[House of the Mírdain]]. He was taken captive by the [[Orcs]] and Sauron demanded that the Rings of Power be turned over to him, as well as the Three Rings. Celebrimbor yielded the [[Nine Rings]] and later even the [[Seven Rings]], but was able to hide the identities of those who bore the Three. Later Celebrimbor was shot through with Orc-arrows, and by some accounts, Sauron used Celebrimbor's body as a banner as he turned to face Elrond's host.<ref name="Concerning" />

===Founding of Imladris===
Elrond's force was far smaller than Sauron's army, and was at risk of being overrun when the [[Dwarves of Khazad-dûm]] and the [[Galadhrim|Elves]] of [[Lothlórien|Lóriand]] led by [[Amroth]] attacked Sauron's rear guard. Thus, the beleaguered Elrond was able save many of the Elves of Eregion by escaping into the north and founding the stronghold of [[Rivendell|Imladris]]. Once the Dwarves returned to Khazad-dûm, the [[Doors of Durin]] were shut and remained so until the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] came there thousands of years later.

Sauron gathered up the Rings of Power that remained, except for the Three Rings, which had been sent far from Eregion at the beginning of the war, and laid waste the land of Eregion, bringing an end to its people. The surviving Elves of Eregion seem to have scattered, as there are various accounts of their fates. Some fled northward to join Elrond and settled at [[Imladris]].<ref name="Concerning" /> They were joined there by others of their kind who had escaped into the [[Rhovanion|Wild]], and only later found their way to safety. Many of these people seem to have later abandoned [[Middle-earth]] and sailed into the [[West]]. Other survivors escaped into Khazad-dûm and were granted passage by their friends the [[Dwarves]], coming eventually through the [[Misty Mountains|Mountains]] to the woodlands that would long afterwards be called [[Lothlórien]].<ref name="Concerning" />

===Sauron Routed===
{{main|Battle of the Gwathló}}
Over the next six years, Sauron's armies overran [[Eriador]] and moved west, aiming to take Lindon and claim one or more of the Three Rings. By {{SA|1699}}, Sauron has completely overrun Eriador and all its lands, save for Imladris and Lindon. However, Imladris was under siege and Gil-galad was barely holding the Line of Lhûn and the [[Grey Havens|Mithlond]]. Sauron had summoned more forces coming from the South East, in the hopes of obtaining the Grey Havens.{{Fact}} There, just as Sauron's victory looked secure, a fleet appeared in the north, carrying the forces of [[Númenor]] sent by Tar-Minastir, the heir<ref name="Delay" /><ref>{{UT|Kings}}, entry X ''Tar-Telperien''</ref><ref group="note">His aunt Queen [[Tar-Telperiën]] only surrendered the sceptre in [[Second Age 1731]]. In addition the chapter XVIII Note on the Delay of Gil-galad and the Númenóreans in The Nature of Middle-earth mentions "the great host of Minastir" instead of "the great host of Tar-Minastir".</ref> of Queen [[Tar-Telperiën]]. The [[Númenóreans]], led by [[Ciryatur]], forced Sauron's armies to retreat south-east with heavy losses. Sauron was defeated again at [[Sarn Ford]], and was pushed out of Eriador, where he burned the forests of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. He had only a small fraction of his army remaining, although he was eventually reinforced by the Orcs he had garrisoned at Tharbad early in the campaign. However, Ciryatur had sent a portion of the Númenórean army to [[Vinyalondë|Lond Daer]], and Sauron found himself attacked from in front and behind in the [[Battle of the Gwathló]], from which he barely escaped. An ensuing battle in eastern [[Calenardhon]] stripped Sauron of all but a tiny bodyguard, with which he retreated into Mordor.<ref name="Concerning" />

===Aftermath===
After Sauron's defeat, the [[White Council]] was held. The exact members are unknown, but this Council was not composed of later members such as the [[Istari]], but likely of Elf-lords and Captains of Men. Here it was decided that Imladris should become the new Elvish stronghold in eastern Eriador, rather than in Eregion and Ost-in-Edhil. In recognition of his efforts, Gil-galad secretly bestowed the ring [[Vilya]] upon Elrond at this time and made him his vice-regent in Eriador.<ref name="Concerning" />

The might of Númenor was first revealed to Middle-earth, and the first signs of the Shadow upon Westernesse had appeared. Sauron cursed and vowed vengeance upon the Númenóreans, whom he now hated.{{Fact}}

{{references|n}}
[[Category:Conflicts of the Second Age]]
[[Category:Wars]]

Talk:Orodreth

2024-12-06T02:49:22Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Orodreth's Genealogy */ Reply

==Move==
Move to Orodreth? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

:Yes. And before you start asking, [[Finduilas|Finduilas of Nargothrond]] too. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Silmarillion vs. Late notes==

Why was my revision, which placed the genealogy from Silmarillion above the later one, removed?
There was nothing factually wrong in it. And it's completely arbitrary to use as main source the later notes, giving a version of the story that wasn't introduced in any narrative and it's pretty much obscure. Not to mention the confusion for readers.
Following the same logic, you should change as well the article about Finrod Felagund and state that he was married, because that's what the last notes on the matter say (HoME vol. XII: "On Dwarves and Men", "The Shibboleth of Fëanor"), even when this contradicts everything that is said in the main narratives.
The question is, why is given preference to quickly written notes (that we don't even know if were definitive or not) over the big bulk of narratives that is extant? That would require that all references to the making of the Sun and the Moon are removed as well from the articles, because that's what the last notes on the matter say. But what's the point of talking about the stories that "could" have been, but never were? We would be talking about a fictional book that was never written. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140 }}

:It was reverted because the intro that does not comply with [[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style|the Manual of Style]]. That you left a link to "Elf (Middle-earth)" in there is a dead giveaway you just copied if off wikipedia . Also, no not mess with headers. It may need a rewrite to comply with our new ideas towards canon, but that doesn't mean we have to accept everything that's added. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it wasn't just "copied off" from Wikipedia. It was me the one who edited the Wikipedia article, following some complaints precisely about this issue in that page. In fact, the original article in this page was an obvious copy of the original article in Wikipedia, that followed all that "Orodreth son of Angrod" version, so that's not an excuse. And what has to do the style with the content? Just because there's a wrong link doesn't mean that the content is wrong. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140}}

:Even if you wrote the text on wikipedia, it's still not okay to just paste it here without bothering about markup. We have entirely different ways of linking, different headers, different rules concerning in-universe writing, different templates.

:Admittedly, a lot of stuff was copied in the early days. Not all of it has been cleaned up. But that doesn't mean content should still be copied. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

==Orodreth's Quenya names==

The article says that the Quenya name of Orodreth in the published Silmarillion is Artanáro. However, I can't find that name being mentioned in the book. Where is it? Besides, if the last Quenya name proposed by Tolkien was Artaher (with Artaresto being just a passing variation), shouldn't be Artaher the name that appears in the infobox and main text?--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 17:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
::The name Artanáro is not mentioned in the published Silmarillion. In the appendix "Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names" there are mentioned Fëanáro and Aikanáro (plus Findaráto and Angaráto) but not Artanáro. The development of the name and also of the descendance of the person itself is quite complicated, and I think it should be addressed more profoundly, noticing clearly the differences between the story taken into the published Silmarillion by CJRT (known to the majority of the readers) and the further development of the story only found in the pages of the HoME, leading from Artanáro (also one of the possible names of Gil-galad) to Artaresto/Rodreth/Orodreth to Artaher/Arothir, and from being the son of Finarfin to being the son of Angrod. --Tik 15:54, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

:::Then, if Artanáro is never mentioned in The Silmarillion, the line that says so is misleading. In my opinion, the development of the genealogy of Orodreth and Gil-galad is clear enough already. What seems confusing are the Quenya names: first Artanáro, then Artaresto and finally Artaher. Maybe it would be good to cite all three names in one of the sub-sections to see the development of the character, but leave the last one (Artaher) for the introduction and infobox. The Sindarin names are probably less confusing; the article says that, even if Tolkien proposed the Sindarin name Arothir later, is likely that "Orodreth" would have been kept as the main name.--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 19:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

==Would you mind...==

Would you mind if I added Orodreth's Silmarillion history, parantage, and siblings to those already entered? It would reduce the confusion any Silmarillion only readers might feel at the difference in what they have read and what is listed as fact...It even gave me a turn until I did some digging in the History volumes, and I am a well-established Tolkienian, so I can't imagine the bewilderment of a Middle Earth newbie at seeing something so different from what he has read...unless he has read the ten volumes of History already, in which case he shouldn't be needing to look on Wikipedia at all :) I don't even fully understand the reasoning behind including the "new" parentage of Orodreth at all: it matches up with nothing else in any of the Legendarium, and was clearly an afterthought of Tolkien's considering the unbalanced significance of Orodreth as a son of Finarfin and his lack of action in the text. Is it even necessary at all to include it? If it is, then I will leave it alone and simply add the additional information.
[[User:Naeramarth|Naeramarth]] 04:02, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

==Orodreth's Genealogy==

New user here, but I'm familiar with Tolkien Gateway since years ago and I'd like to say I appreciate this space for sticking with Tolkien's canon and not including stuff from adaptations and fanfiction in its content.

That said, I feel a strong need to address this old question in hand again.

I remember that a while ago, the article on Orodreth used to contain very clear information on his parentage, explicitly explaining that he was a son of Finarfin according to The Silmarillion and a son of Angrod according to the Unfinished Tales. I come here now to express my regret and disappointment that the editors of Tolkien Gateway have changed their stance and decided to single out their preferred version of the tale while at the same time completely ignoring the alternative, equally official version.

According to the published books "The Silmarillion" and "The Children of Húrin", Orodreth is the son of Finarfin. This is the only version of his genealogy that is presented in actual story books, officially edited and published by Christopher Tolkien, the latter upon several DECADES of revision. As late as 2007, Christopher still chose to maintain Orodreth as the son of Finarfin in his final version of The Children of Húrin.

That said, I consider it very inadequate and inaccurate to pretend that this version of the tale doesn't exist or is a disqualified version. I believe this article should give the published version more credit, at least as much credit as it gives to Tolkien's draft notes. The lack of such clarity confuses fans and readers all over the internet, specially the casual ones, as they don't understand why the books say one thing and the Tolkien Gateway says something completely different.

I'm not editing the article myself because, as I said, I'm a new user and I don't want to mess with the work of the more dutiful editors. However I want to leave my opinion and suggestion here. --[[User:Es157|Es157]] ([[User talk:Es157|talk]]) 18:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

:Nonetheless, Orodreth being the son of Finarfin rather than his grandson was admitted as a mistake by Christopher himself. Even Orodreth's Quenya name ''Artaresto'' was actually conceived by Tolkien only at that time, when the character was moved down the generation, while his name disapeared from the list of Finarfin's children already in the Later Quenta. --[[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 10:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

In the 'Arrival of Beren' section further context is needed I believe.

Seems like there should be additional context as to how Orodreth fell from power, before returning to power in this section:

"However, Celegorm and Curufin, the Sons of Fëanor, were also at Nargothrond at the time, and persuaded almost all the people of Nargothrond to refuse to accompany Finrod on the quest for the Silmaril, so that only Edrahil and ten companions agreed to go with Finrod and Beren. Finrod gave his crown to Orodreth to rule Nargothrond as a regent in his absence. ''[EXPLAIN WHY/HOW FEANOR'S SONS TEMPORARILY USURPED ORODRETH DURING FINROD'S ABSENCE]'' When news came that Finrod had been killed and that Tol-in-Gaurhoth had been destroyed, the sons of Fëanor were shamed and fell from power, as the people cried out that the maiden Lúthien had done what the sons of Fëanor dared not. Orodreth returned to power and expelled Celegorm and Curufin from Nargothrond." [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 20:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

:I agree, if you want to have a go at writing the additional context, that would be great! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 20:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::Done. Thank you. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 02:49, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Orodreth

2024-12-06T02:47:51Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Arrival of Beren */ added context as to how Celegorn and Curufin were able to appropriate the rule of Nargothrond over Orodreth in Finod's absence.

{{disambig-two|the Lord of [[Nargothrond]]| Steward of Gondor|[[Orodreth (Steward of Gondor)|Orodreth]]}}
{{infobox character
| people=[[Noldor|Noldo]]
| name=Orodreth
| image=Marya Filatova - Artaresto.jpg
| caption="Artaresto" by [[Marya Filatova]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[oˈrodreθ]}}
| othernames=''Artaresto'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]]) ''Artaher''/''Arothir'' ([[Quenya|Q]]/[[Sindarin|S]], [[Father-name|fn]])<ref name="Shibboleth">{{PM|XI4}}, pp. 346-348, 364 (Note 47)</ref>
| titles=[[King of Nargothrond]] Lord of Narog<ref name="Narn"/><ref>{{CH|8}}</ref>
| position=Warden of [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]] ({{FA|102}} - {{FA|457|n}})
| location=[[Tirion]]; [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]]; [[Nargothrond]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]]
| birth=Between {{YT|1300}} & {{YT|1495|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Tirion]]
| rule={{FA|465}} - {{FA|495|n}}
| death={{FA|495}}<ref name="GAS275">{{GA|275}}</ref>
| deathlocation=[[Battle of Tumhalad]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Finarfin]]
| parentage=[[Angrod]] & [[Eldalótë]]<ref name="Shibboleth"/>
| siblings=
| spouse=Unnamed [[Sindar]]in wife
| children=[[Finduilas]] & [[Gil-galad]]<ref name="Shibboleth"/><ref name=Galad>{{PM|Gil-galad}}, p. 349-351</ref>[[Gil-galad#Parentage|NB]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Orodreth''' was a lord of the [[Noldor]] and a dynast of the [[House of Finarfin]]. He served as the warden of [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]] under his uncle [[Finrod]] until the fortress was overrun by [[Sauron]].

After Finrod’s death, Orodreth was proclaimed [[King of Nargothrond]] but was killed during the [[Fall of Nargothrond|fall of the city]]. He was the son of the Noldorin lord [[Angrod]] and the father of [[Finduilas]] and [[Gil-galad]].<ref name="Shibboleth" />

==History==
===Early History===
He was born in [[Valinor]] sometime during the [[Years of the Trees]]. His name in [[Quenya]] was '''''Artaresto'''''.<ref name="Galad" />

During the [[Flight of the Noldor]], Orodreth spoke softly and sought to calm the Noldor to reflect before taking the decision to leave [[Aman]].<ref name="Flight">{{S|Flight}}</ref> After the return of the Noldor to [[Middle-earth]] and the completion of [[Nargothrond]], Orodreth's uncle [[Finrod]] gave the fortress of [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]] to Orodreth's keeping.<ref name="Beleriand">{{S|Beleriand}}</ref>

Orodreth held the fortress of Minas Tirith in the vale of [[Sirion]] until shortly after the [[Dagor Bragollach]] [[Sauron]], lieutenant of [[Morgoth]], overran the isle, took Minas Tirith by storm and turned it into [[Tol-in-Gaurhoth]], the Isle of Werewolves, in {{FA|457}}. Orodreth had to flee from Minas Tirith south to [[Nargothrond]].<ref name="Fingolfin">{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref>

===Arrival of Beren===
[[File:Ebe Kastein - King Orodreth.jpg|225px|thumb|left|''King Orodreth'' by [[:Category:Images by Ebe Kastein|Ebe Kastein]]]]
When [[Beren]], son of [[Barahir]] came to Nargothrond in {{FA|465}}, Finrod, the [[King of Nargothrond]], decided to accompany him on his [[quest for the Silmaril]], fulfilling his oath. However, [[Celegorm]] and [[Curufin]], the [[Sons of Fëanor]], were also at Nargothrond at the time, and persuaded almost all the people of Nargothrond to refuse to accompany Finrod on the quest for the Silmaril so that only [[Edrahil]] and ten companions agreed to go with Finrod and Beren. Finrod gave his crown to Orodreth to rule Nargothrond as a regent in his absence. With Finrod gone, Celegorm and Curufin further swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond, and Orodreth had no power to withstand them. The ultimate goal of the brothers was to take control of all Elf-kingdoms before then seeking the Silmarils. When news came that Finrod had been killed and that Tol-in-Gaurhoth had been destroyed, the sons of Fëanor were shamed and fell from power, as the people cried out that the maiden [[Lúthien]] had done what the sons of Fëanor dared not. Orodreth returned to power and expelled Celegorm and Curufin from Nargothrond.<ref name="Beren">{{S|Beren}}</ref>

===Arrival of Túrin===
In {{FA|487}}, word of the inspiring deeds of [[Túrin]] and [[Beleg]], the "Two Captains" of [[Dor-Cúarthol]] who had thrown the power of Angband back, became known in Nargothrond. Many there grew restless, believing that if an outlaw could do such hurt to the Enemy, what might not the Lord of Narog do. Orodreth, however, would permit none of his people to join Túrin, and sent messages that Túrin was not to set foot in Nargothrond or drive Orcs into it. He did, however, offer help other than arms, possibly being moved to do so by Thingol and Melian with whom exchanged messages with.<ref>{{CH|8}}</ref>

[[File:Alarie - Turin in front of Orodreth.jpg|thumb|''Túrin in front of Orodreth'' by [[:Category:Images by Alarie|Alarie]]]]
In {{FA|490}},<ref>{{GA|267}}</ref> [[Gwindor]], a prince of Nargothrond and an escaped thrall of Morgoth returning from his captivity in [[Angband]], led [[Túrin]] son of [[Húrin]], a [[Man]] of the [[House of Hador]] to Nargothrond. In Nargothrond, Túrin hid his name, calling himself ''[[Agarwaen]]'', son of ''[[Úmarth]]'' ("Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate"). [[Finduilas]], daughter of Orodreth, fell in love with him, but he avoided her because she had previously been the beloved of his friend Gwindor. Túrin declined to tell her his name, so that she called him ''Thurin'' ("The Secret"). He was also called ''Adanedhel'' ("Man-Elf") because he was so alike to an Elf, though he was a Man.<ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref><ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref name="CH10">{{CH|10}}</ref>

His identity did not remain hidden for long. Gwindor revealed to Finduilas that 'Agarwaen' was in fact Túrin, and 'Úmarth' his famous father Húrin. When the news of this reached Finduilas' father, Orodreth, King of Nargothrond, Túrin was given great honor and standing, but the revelation of Túrin's identity would also bring Morgoth's curse with him.<ref name="Narn" /><ref name="Turin" /><ref name="CH10" />
[[File:Alan Lee - Fall of Nargothrond.jpg|225px|thumb|left|''Fall of Nargothrond'' by [[Alan Lee]]]]
Túrin became a chief counselor of Orodreth, and was extremely influential in Nargothrond. He encouraged the people of Nargothrond to abandon their practice of secrecy, and they built a great bridge before the gates. Because of his prowess with [[Gurthang]], his black sword, he himself became known as ''Mormegil'' ("Black Sword").<ref name="Narn" /><ref name="Turin" /><ref name="CH10" />

However, sometime after, two messengers, named [[Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)|Gelmir]] and [[Arminas]], sent there by [[Círdan]], arrived to Nargothrond, delivering the message from [[Ulmo]], Lord of Waters himself, to the King Orodreth, advising him to shut the doors of Nargothrond and destroy the bridge before its gates. At this time Orodreth relied upon the counsel of Túrin, who scorned the words of the messengers, for it was upon his advice that the bridge had been built and it was his policy for the King's forces to go forth openly to war, and sent them away.<ref name="Narn" /><ref name="Turin" /><ref name="Fall">{{CH|11}}</ref>

This would prove to be a fatal mistake, since in {{FA|495}},<ref name="GAS275" /> Morgoth unleashed his forces at Nargothrond. Led by [[Glaurung]] the dragon, they devastated the army of Orodreth at the [[Battle of Tumhalad]]. In that battle Orodreth was slain, and after that the [[Fall of Nargothrond]] was inevitable, due to the bridge that allowed Glaurung and Morgoth's host to ravage the city, and most of its people were either enslaved or killed (including Orodreth's daughter Finduilas).<ref name="Narn" /><ref name="Turin" /><ref name="Fall" />

==Etymology==
''Orodreth'' translates to "mountaineer".<ref>{{PE|Eldarin}}, root '''RETE''', p. 182</ref> Paul Strack suggests that it is a combination of ''[[ered|orod]]'' ("mountain") and ''reth'' ("climber").<ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=https://www.eldamo.org/content/words/word-2927154629.html|articlename=S. ''Orodreth'' m.|website=Eldamo|accessed=19 October 2022}}</ref>

His Quenya name was '''''Artaresto''''' (''arta'' ("noble"); ''resto'' may be derived from √RETH (“endurance”)<ref group="note">See [https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2018176983.html?neo Eldamo] for details</ref>) which Sindarized to '''''Rodreth''''' and was further altered to ''Orodreth'' because of his love of the mountains.<ref name="Galad" />

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MIR |y|~|~|~|~|~|~| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | OLW | | | | | | | |MIR=[[Míriel]] ''d. {{YT|1170}}''|FIN=[[Finwë]] ''d. {{YT|1495}}''|IND=[[Indis]] ''b. {{YT}}''|OLW=[[Olwë]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree| | | |!| | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | FEA | | FDS | | FNG | | IRM | | FRF |y| EAW | | SON | | | | | |FEA=[[Fëanor]] ''{{YT|1169}} - {{YT|1497|n}}''|FDS=[[Findis]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]] ''{{YT|1190}} - {{FA|456}}''|IRM=[[Írimë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FRF=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]] ''b. {{YT}}''|SON=''unknown sons''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|^|-|-|-|v|-|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | FRD | | ANG |y| ELD | | AEG | | GAL |y| CEL | |FRD=[[Finrod]] ''{{YT|1300}} - {{FA|465}}''|ANG=[[Angrod]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''|AEG=[[Aegnor]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''|GAL=[[Galadriel]] ''b. {{YT|1362}}''|ELD=[[Eldalótë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]] ''b. {{FA}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ORO | | | | | | ELR |y| CLB | | | |ORO='''ORODRETH''' ''d. {{FA|495}}''|CLB=[[Celebrían]] ''b. {{SA}}''|ELR=[[Elrond]] ''b. {{FA|532}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | FIL | | GIL | | ELL | | ELO | | ARW ||FIL=[[Finduilas]][[Finduilas#Notes|NB]] ''{{FA|272}} - {{FA|495|n}}''|GIL=[[Gil-galad]][[Gil-galad#Parentage|NB]] ''d. {{SA|3441}}''|ELL=[[Elladan]] ''b. {{TA|130}}''|ELO=[[Elrohir]] ''b. {{TA|130}}''|ARW=[[Arwen]] ''{{TA|241}} - {{FoA|121}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
===Early legendarium===
In earlier versions of the [[legendarium]], Orodreth was a more important character, and the original king of Nargothrond. However, his importance diminished over time.

In one of the early versions, he had two sons whose names were translated as [[Ordhelm]] and [[Ordláf]] in [[Old English]] by [[Ælfwine]], though the original [[Elvish]] names were lost to time.<ref name="Ord">{{SM|QA1}}, p. 213</ref> In another version, his two sons were [[Haldir (son of Orodreth)|Haldir]] [< Halmir] who was slain after being trapped by Orcs and hung on a tree,<ref>{{LR|AB}}</ref>{{rp|112}} and a younger son [[Orodlin (son of Orodreth)|Orodlin]].<ref>{{LR|A1}}</ref>{{rp|309}}

===Parentage and children===
In the published versions of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' and ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'' Orodreth is the son of [[Finarfin]] and younger brother of [[Finrod|Finrod Felagund]].<ref name="Flight" /><ref name="Beleriand" /><ref name="Beren" /><ref>{{S|Princes}}</ref><ref>{{UT|2o}}, much fuller account of the coming of the Elves Gelmir and Arminas to Nargothrond</ref>

In J.R.R. Tolkien's updates to the genealogical tables of the descendants of Finwë, dating between 1959-1968, Orodreth's lineage went through several revisions. First, while named as ''Artanáro Rhodothir'', he was changed to be son of Finrod Felegund. When Tolkien apparently recalled that Finrod had no wife or son, Orodreth was then made the son of Finrod's brother, Angrod. Orodreth's name was then changed from ''Artanáro'' to ''Artaresto''. Finally, in a note dated August 1965, Tolkien fully elaborated on both Orodreth (''Artaresto'') being the son of Angrod, and Gil-galad (''Artanáro'') in turn being the son of Orodreth.<ref name="Galad" />

[[Christopher Tolkien]] did not incorporate these changes into the published materials, but he did make several comments on them. ''"For a reason unknown to me, my father displaced the second King of Nargothrond and made him a member of the same family in the next generation; but this and associated genealogical changes were never incorporated in the narratives of The Silmarillion."''<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}, p. 255 note 20</ref> ''"There can be no doubt that this was my father’s last word on the subject; but nothing of this late and radically altered conception ever touched the existing narratives, and it was obviously impossible to introduce it into the published Silmarillion. It would nonetheless have been very much better to have left Gil-galad’s parentage obscure."''<ref name="Galad" />

===A note from ''[[The Nature of Middle-earth]]''===
However, in a very late note dated c. 1972-3, the name ''Orodreth'' is again mentioned in the list of some renowned heroes in the royal lines of old, so it seems that Tolkien abandoned the name ''Arothir'' (which was itself meant to replace ''Orodreth'' a few years earlier).<ref>{{NM|P2v}}, footnote, p. 189</ref>

{{references|note}}
{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
|race=noldor
|house=[[House of Finarfin]] Cadet branch of [[House of Finwë]]
|born=After {{YT|1300}}
|died={{FA|495}}
}}
{{seq
|pvac=None
|prev=Position established
|list=Warden of [[Minas Tirith (Beleriand)|Minas Tirith]]
|dates={{FA|102}} - {{FA|457|n}}
|next=Minas Tirith captuted by [[Sauron|Gorthaur]]
|nvac=None
}}
{{seq
|prev=[[Finrod]]
|list=2nd [[King of Nargothrond]]
|dates={{FA|465}} – {{FA|495|n}}
|next=[[Fall of Nargothrond|Kingdom destroyed]]
|nvac=None
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Children of Húrin]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Gnomish names]]
[[Category:House of Finarfin]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Noldorin names]]
[[Category:Rulers in Beleriand]]
[[Category:Rulers in the Great Lands]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]

[[de:Orodreth (Elb)]]
[[fi:Orodreth]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/orodreth]]

Talk:Orodreth

2024-12-02T20:07:19Z

Lost Númenórean:

==Move==
Move to Orodreth? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

:Yes. And before you start asking, [[Finduilas|Finduilas of Nargothrond]] too. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Silmarillion vs. Late notes==

Why was my revision, which placed the genealogy from Silmarillion above the later one, removed?
There was nothing factually wrong in it. And it's completely arbitrary to use as main source the later notes, giving a version of the story that wasn't introduced in any narrative and it's pretty much obscure. Not to mention the confusion for readers.
Following the same logic, you should change as well the article about Finrod Felagund and state that he was married, because that's what the last notes on the matter say (HoME vol. XII: "On Dwarves and Men", "The Shibboleth of Fëanor"), even when this contradicts everything that is said in the main narratives.
The question is, why is given preference to quickly written notes (that we don't even know if were definitive or not) over the big bulk of narratives that is extant? That would require that all references to the making of the Sun and the Moon are removed as well from the articles, because that's what the last notes on the matter say. But what's the point of talking about the stories that "could" have been, but never were? We would be talking about a fictional book that was never written. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140 }}

:It was reverted because the intro that does not comply with [[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style|the Manual of Style]]. That you left a link to "Elf (Middle-earth)" in there is a dead giveaway you just copied if off wikipedia . Also, no not mess with headers. It may need a rewrite to comply with our new ideas towards canon, but that doesn't mean we have to accept everything that's added. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it wasn't just "copied off" from Wikipedia. It was me the one who edited the Wikipedia article, following some complaints precisely about this issue in that page. In fact, the original article in this page was an obvious copy of the original article in Wikipedia, that followed all that "Orodreth son of Angrod" version, so that's not an excuse. And what has to do the style with the content? Just because there's a wrong link doesn't mean that the content is wrong. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140}}

:Even if you wrote the text on wikipedia, it's still not okay to just paste it here without bothering about markup. We have entirely different ways of linking, different headers, different rules concerning in-universe writing, different templates.

:Admittedly, a lot of stuff was copied in the early days. Not all of it has been cleaned up. But that doesn't mean content should still be copied. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

==Orodreth's Quenya names==

The article says that the Quenya name of Orodreth in the published Silmarillion is Artanáro. However, I can't find that name being mentioned in the book. Where is it? Besides, if the last Quenya name proposed by Tolkien was Artaher (with Artaresto being just a passing variation), shouldn't be Artaher the name that appears in the infobox and main text?--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 17:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
::The name Artanáro is not mentioned in the published Silmarillion. In the appendix "Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names" there are mentioned Fëanáro and Aikanáro (plus Findaráto and Angaráto) but not Artanáro. The development of the name and also of the descendance of the person itself is quite complicated, and I think it should be addressed more profoundly, noticing clearly the differences between the story taken into the published Silmarillion by CJRT (known to the majority of the readers) and the further development of the story only found in the pages of the HoME, leading from Artanáro (also one of the possible names of Gil-galad) to Artaresto/Rodreth/Orodreth to Artaher/Arothir, and from being the son of Finarfin to being the son of Angrod. --Tik 15:54, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

:::Then, if Artanáro is never mentioned in The Silmarillion, the line that says so is misleading. In my opinion, the development of the genealogy of Orodreth and Gil-galad is clear enough already. What seems confusing are the Quenya names: first Artanáro, then Artaresto and finally Artaher. Maybe it would be good to cite all three names in one of the sub-sections to see the development of the character, but leave the last one (Artaher) for the introduction and infobox. The Sindarin names are probably less confusing; the article says that, even if Tolkien proposed the Sindarin name Arothir later, is likely that "Orodreth" would have been kept as the main name.--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 19:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

== Would you mind... ==

Would you mind if I added Orodreth's Silmarillion history, parantage, and siblings to those already entered? It would reduce the confusion any Silmarillion only readers might feel at the difference in what they have read and what is listed as fact...It even gave me a turn until I did some digging in the History volumes, and I am a well-established Tolkienian, so I can't imagine the bewilderment of a Middle Earth newbie at seeing something so different from what he has read...unless he has read the ten volumes of History already, in which case he shouldn't be needing to look on Wikipedia at all :) I don't even fully understand the reasoning behind including the "new" parentage of Orodreth at all: it matches up with nothing else in any of the Legendarium, and was clearly an afterthought of Tolkien's considering the unbalanced significance of Orodreth as a son of Finarfin and his lack of action in the text. Is it even necessary at all to include it? If it is, then I will leave it alone and simply add the additional information.
[[User:Naeramarth|Naeramarth]] 04:02, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

== Orodreth's Genealogy ==

New user here, but I'm familiar with Tolkien Gateway since years ago and I'd like to say I appreciate this space for sticking with Tolkien's canon and not including stuff from adaptations and fanfiction in its content.

That said, I feel a strong need to address this old question in hand again.

I remember that a while ago, the article on Orodreth used to contain very clear information on his parentage, explicitly explaining that he was a son of Finarfin according to The Silmarillion and a son of Angrod according to the Unfinished Tales. I come here now to express my regret and disappointment that the editors of Tolkien Gateway have changed their stance and decided to single out their preferred version of the tale while at the same time completely ignoring the alternative, equally official version.

According to the published books "The Silmarillion" and "The Children of Húrin", Orodreth is the son of Finarfin. This is the only version of his genealogy that is presented in actual story books, officially edited and published by Christopher Tolkien, the latter upon several DECADES of revision. As late as 2007, Christopher still chose to maintain Orodreth as the son of Finarfin in his final version of The Children of Húrin.

That said, I consider it very inadequate and inaccurate to pretend that this version of the tale doesn't exist or is a disqualified version. I believe this article should give the published version more credit, at least as much credit as it gives to Tolkien's draft notes. The lack of such clarity confuses fans and readers all over the internet, specially the casual ones, as they don't understand why the books say one thing and the Tolkien Gateway says something completely different.

I'm not editing the article myself because, as I said, I'm a new user and I don't want to mess with the work of the more dutiful editors. However I want to leave my opinion and suggestion here. --[[User:Es157|Es157]] ([[User talk:Es157|talk]]) 18:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

:Nonetheless, Orodreth being the son of Finarfin rather than his grandson was admitted as a mistake by Christopher himself. Even Orodreth's Quenya name ''Artaresto'' was actually conceived by Tolkien only at that time, when the character was moved down the generation, while his name disapeared from the list of Finarfin's children already in the Later Quenta. --[[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 10:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

In the 'Arrival of Beren' section further context is needed I believe.

Seems like there should be additional context as to how Orodreth fell from power, before returning to power in this section:

"However, Celegorm and Curufin, the Sons of Fëanor, were also at Nargothrond at the time, and persuaded almost all the people of Nargothrond to refuse to accompany Finrod on the quest for the Silmaril, so that only Edrahil and ten companions agreed to go with Finrod and Beren. Finrod gave his crown to Orodreth to rule Nargothrond as a regent in his absence. ''[EXPLAIN WHY/HOW FEANOR'S SONS TEMPORARILY USURPED ORODRETH DURING FINROD'S ABSENCE]'' When news came that Finrod had been killed and that Tol-in-Gaurhoth had been destroyed, the sons of Fëanor were shamed and fell from power, as the people cried out that the maiden Lúthien had done what the sons of Fëanor dared not. Orodreth returned to power and expelled Celegorm and Curufin from Nargothrond." [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 20:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Túrin

2024-11-18T18:06:23Z

Lost Númenórean: /* I'd just like to add here in the discussion section */ new section

== FA prospects ==

This is a well-written article with FA potential. A polishing would be good, with some increased subdividing into section, with some more refs.--[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 13:41, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

: I'm the one who wishes most to see this article in the FA section. However, there ain't enough Prozac in this world to make me open that book again for further expansion of the text. :) But I will add more References and rewrite the family tree. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 14:05, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

::I'll see if I can whip up a nice etymologies section, then... -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 14:19, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Are there any other possible pictures of Turin that could be used? The current one seems a little rough.[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 17:45, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

::::And VERY movie-inspired. Do we have Alan Lee's CoH book art available or something? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 18:02, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

:::::I believe you are talking about the image on the cover of the book. Well... we don't have it. But we do have this : [[:Category:Images of The Children of Húrin editions|Images of The Children of Húrin editions]]. And since it was ok to load those pics, I think it would be alright to load the picture of Túrin only too. I think. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 18:37, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

::::::Well, it has been changed with Alan Lee art. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 16:05, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

:::::::I like it... though I think the quote's too long. I always liked "Farewell, O twice beloved! A Túrin Turambar turún ambartanen: master of
doom by doom mastered! O happy to be dead!" - Nienor, The Death of Glaurung. Though maybe that's a bit too spoilerish. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 16:16, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

:::::::::Oh, I like that too! Though IT IS a bit too spoilerish...On the other hand, who doesn't know Túrin died in the end? (Like that's a surprise anyways considering the previous events in his life...)~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 16:29, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

==FA prospects, revisited==
In order for this to become featured, this should be changed, IMHO:
* fully sourced
* history section needs to be expanded and subsectioned
* Long etymology section rather than "The Many names of"
* Better sources of Inspirations. More secondary literature.
* A new quote, see also above. I also like Gwindor's "The Doom lies in yourself, not in your name", which is definately true. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

== Renaming ==

Túrin is the most common name for this character (as well as being clearly the most popular of the ''Túrin''s), with Turambar being a soubriquet. I think this article should be moved to Túrin (which redirects here anyway). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

:Agreed. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

== Second Prophecy of Mandos ==

About this line: "It was prophesied by the Vala Mandos that at the end of time Morgoth would wage a final battle against the Valar, the Final Battle, and that Túrin Turambar would deliver the death blow, exterminating evil forever."
This is a discarded idea. Should it be updated to show the last version of the prophecy, in which Túrin kills Ancalagon in the War Wrath? {{unsignedanon|95.22.52.196}}

:It should mention both.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 11:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

== First, second, and third results from curse? ==

The article describes specific incidents that came from the curse placed on Túrin by Morgoth. It says the death of [[Lalaith]] is the "first" one and then it proceeds to describe "second" and "third" incidents. However, didn't Lalaith die before Morgoth's curse on Húrin and his family (which started after Húrin's capture at the end of the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]? --[[User:Oromë|Oromë]] 02:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

:I believe so. Though, Morgoth did still play a part in Lalaith's death, as I believe she died from a plague from Angband. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 02:41, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

::True, but I'm thinking that describing it as a result of "Morgoth's curse" is incorrect because Morgoth's curse on Túrin is the one placed on Húrin and his family. --[[User:Oromë|Oromë]] 02:48, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

:::I agree that numeration should be removed, it gives a false idea of Morgoth's curse, which is more subtle. Also, the one who wrote it didn't notice that the first of "Túrin's pains" (which are more explicitly mentioned in the texts) was not Lalaith's death but his departure to Doriath. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 07:23, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

== Origin of the curse ==

Unfortunately I don't recall the exact details myself, although if I have time I will try to read the Hurin entry to recall them, but there should definitely be some mention of the circumstances and details of the curse of Morgoth. Even if it began before Turin was born, it's one of the most relevant things to know about his life!
[[User:Jerodast|-jerodast]] 16:37, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

== OVOTL ==

Why is there no OVOTL ('Other versions of the legendarium') section in the article? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
:I think that there should be one. At the same time, however, Túrin is a character whom Tolkien changed the least. His story from ''The Book of Lost Tales'' to ''Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth'' remained much the same, with Tolkien mainly adding and expanding it. Perhaps something coukd be said about how Tolkien's version of Kullervo in ''The Story of Kullervo'' was in a way, the first version of Túrin?[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
:Same can be asked for hundreds of articles. No one has ever get into that. [[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] ([[User talk:LorenzoCB|talk]]) 12:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
::I know. I was just curious as to why an article on such a prominent figure in the legendarium didn't yet have an OVOTL section. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 02:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

== I'd just like to add here in the discussion section ==

Curse or no curse...this dude was an asshole. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 18:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Forums:Cluejie page editing and http error notification

2024-08-18T19:51:52Z

Lost Númenórean:

{{Counciltop}}


Attempted to recommend an edit to Orodreth page and got an http error 403 message.
Attempted to join discord (clicked on invite link) that also didn't work out.
This site is going downhill fast.
New design kind'a blows too.{{unsigned|Lost Númenórean}}
:Hi Lost Númenórean! Sorry to hear you're having trouble. I'm able to edit Orodreth and access the Discord link. It sounds like you might want to try restarting your computer or clearing your browser cache as we're also seeing a steady stream of successful edits/Discord joins from other users. Is there anything specific with the new design that you'd like to see changed? Thanks for your feedback! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 13:39, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
::Hello Hyarion! 2 things - 1) I was only wanting to recommend an edit, not actually make the edit. I was going to make this recommendation in the discussion section. That is where I got the error notification. 2) The design doesn't really blow, it's just new and I'm still getting use to it.{{unsigned|Lost Númenórean}}
:::Hm, I went ahead and started a new topic at [[Talk:Orodreth]] and didn't receive an error. If the issue persists and restarting your computer didn't help, just let me know what time you received the error along with your time zone and I can investigate further. In regards to the design, you're more than welcome to switch back to the old design by clicking the person icon in the corner and selecting Preferences > Appearance (the old design is called "Timeless"). --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 15:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm still receiving the error when attempting to post my comment. :(

With that said, here is the comment I'm attempting to post: In the 'Arrival of Beren' section further context is needed

Seems like there should be additional context as to '''how Orodreth fell from power''', before returning to power in this section:

"However, Celegorm and Curufin, the Sons of Fëanor, were also at Nargothrond at the time, and persuaded almost all the people of Nargothrond to refuse to accompany Finrod on the quest for the Silmaril so that only Edrahil and ten companions agreed to go with Finrod and Beren. Finrod gave his crown to Orodreth to rule Nargothrond as a regent in his absence. ''[EXPLAIN WHY/HOW FEANOR'S SONS TEMPORARILY USURPED ORODRETH DURING FINROD'S ABSENCE]'' When news came that Finrod had been killed and that Tol-in-Gaurhoth had been destroyed, the sons of Fëanor were shamed and fell from power, as the people cried out that the maiden Lúthien had done what the sons of Fëanor dared not. '''Orodreth returned to power''' and expelled Celegorm and Curufin from Nargothrond."

Forums:Cluejie page editing and http error notification

2024-07-21T15:19:40Z

Lost Númenórean:

Forums:Cluejie page editing and http error notification

2024-07-21T13:25:48Z

Lost Númenórean: Created page with "{{Counciltop}}  Attempted to recommend an edit to Orodreth page and got an http error 403 message. Attempted to join discord (clicked on invite link) that also didn't work out. This site is going downhill fast. New design kind'a blows too."

Talk:Ulfang

2024-06-21T14:09:51Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Died two years before Nirnaeth Arnoediad FA 470 */ new section

== picture of him ==

can we have the first picture of him? please?

:Unfortunately, so far as I know no artist has actually painted him accurately. I think I've seen one by some artist named Frank Frazetta or something like that, but it was fanciful, and at any rate copyrighted. I could be wrong, though. Hyarion might know differently. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 20:37, 10 February 2007 (EST)
 
Please note that the Frazetta pic you're thinking of is NOT actually a depiction of Ulfang. It is called "Death Dealer" and someone took that pic and used it on a game card, then titled it 'Ulfang the Black'.

== Died two years before Nirnaeth Arnoediad FA 470 ==

His bio does not say how he died. It's odd to me that we know he died, but not exactly how...or even speculatively. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 14:09, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Ulfang

2024-06-21T14:07:03Z

Lost Númenórean:

Talk:Caranthir

2024-04-13T14:36:00Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Changing main picture of Caranthir */ Reply

== Changing main picture of Caranthir ==

May I respectfully suggest that ElfinFen has a better picture of Caranthir, and that it should be used for the main pic on that entry?

[[:Category:Images of Caranthir#/media/File:ElfinFen - Caranthir.jpg|Category:Images of Caranthir#/media/File:ElfinFen - Caranthir.jpg]] [[User:Axanturish|Axanturish]] ([[User talk:Axanturish|talk]]) 07:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

:I personally like Venlian's version the best. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 14:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

File talk:Ted Nasmith - Eöl is Led to the Walls.jpg

2023-11-22T13:55:15Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Is that Thingol? */ Reply

== Is that Thingol? ==

If that is supposed to be Thingol in the white robes, then he is depicted way too short.

His head should be about where the top of his staff is located.

He is the tallest of all of Illuvatar's Children...and therefore should be in the neighborhood of 8' tall.

In that pic, the two elves and Eol, should they be standing on the same ground as Thingol would only be a couple of inches shorter than him. While the average height of elves of the First Age were typically ~7' tall, this means Thingol should be far taller than them, not merely by a couple of inches. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 16:03, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

:That's probably a representative of Turgon holding his staff. Thingol was the king of Doriath, not Gondolin's. [[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] ([[User talk:LorenzoCB|talk]]) 22:53, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
::Doh! My bad, I meant Turgon. Wasn't he the second tallest next to Thingol?
::Thanks for the reply and correction. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 13:55, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

File talk:Ted Nasmith - Eöl is Led to the Walls.jpg

2023-11-21T16:03:14Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Is that Thingol? */ new section

File talk:Elena Kukanova - Anglachel.jpg

2023-11-21T15:05:05Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Thingol */ new section

== Thingol ==

Is it just me, or should Thingol be depicted a lot taller in this pic?

Afterall, he was the 'tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar' and was most likely close to 8' in height. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 15:05, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

File talk:Luis F. Bejarano - Lothlann.jpg

2023-11-20T20:16:34Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Maglor's keep? */ new section

== Maglor's keep? ==

Is this a rendering of Maglor's fortress? [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 20:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

File talk:Matěj Čadil - Aglon.jpg

2023-11-17T21:31:29Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Anyone know for sure from which direction? */ new section

== Anyone know for sure from which direction? ==

In this pic are we looking at the pass from the SW towards the NE, or from the NE towards the SW?

My gut tells me it's from SW to NE, but not sure. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 21:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Rangers of the North

2023-09-25T17:33:11Z

Lost Númenórean: Changed pic for Rangers of the North

{{sources}}
{{disambig-two|[[Dúnedain of Arnor|Dúnedain]] Rangers of [[Eriador]]|[[Gondorians|Gondorian]] Rangers|[[Rangers of Ithilien]]}}
[[File:Jan Pospíšil - Dúnedain Rangers Sketch.jpg|thumb|Jan Pospíšil - Dúnedain Rangers Sketch]]
'''Rangers of the North''', or simply '''the Rangers''', were the northern wandering people of [[Eriador]], the last remnant of the [[Dúnedain of Arnor]] who had once peopled the North Kingdom of [[Arnor]].<ref>{{FR|I11}}</ref> They protected the lands they wandered although their secretiveness made other peoples consider them dangerous and distrustful in [[Bree]] and [[the Shire]], where they were known as "Watchers".

They were grim in appearance and were usually dressed in grey or dark green, with a cloak-clasp shaped like a rayed star.<ref>{{RK|Company}}, p. 778</ref>

The term 'Rangers of the North' was used most often by those who lived in the southern lands of [[Rohan]] and [[Gondor]], perhaps to distinguish this people from their distant cousins, the [[Rangers of Ithilien]]. Like the Rangers of the North, these were also Dúnedain, but they belonged to the South-kingdom of Gondor, and their ancestors had been divided from the Northern Dúnedain for some three thousand years.

==Background==
{{main|Men of Arnor}}
The Dúnedain of Arnor dwindled after the breaking of Arnor into three kingdoms and the wars with [[Angmar]]. [[Cardolan]] and [[Rhudaur]] soon fell and only the petty-kingdom of [[Arthedain]] maintained the noble line of [[Isildur]]. Finally, that too was destroyed in the [[Battle of Fornost]] and [[Arvedui]], the last King of Arthedain was lost in the sea.

Arvedui's son and heir, [[Aranarth]] claimed the title of the [[Chieftains of the Dúnedain|Chieftain]], who would rule the remnants of his people. [[Elrond]] had in his keeping the heirlooms of the house of [[Isildur]]: the shards of [[Narsil]], the [[Star of Elendil]], the [[Sceptre of Annúminas]] and later the [[Ring of Barahir]], ransomed from the [[Lossoth]].

Each of Aranarth's heirs (who, like him, could trace his descent back to Isildur himself) would be secretly born and raised in [[Rivendell]].

Many Rangers generally occupied the woods [[Angle (Eriador)|between]] [[Mitheithel]] and [[Bruinen]]<ref name=NM>{{NM|P3xvii}}</ref><ref>[[David Salo]]'s report on microfilms at [[Marquette University]] (Series 3, Box 9, Folder 3), cf. {{webcite|author=[[Michael Martinez]]|articleurl=http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000253|articlename=Forum post|dated=7 July 2004|website=[http://www.minastirith.com/ minastirith.com]|accessed=16 April 2017}}</ref> and some, like [[Dírhael]], in hidden fastnesses.<ref>{{PM|Aii}}</ref> Chieftain [[Arador]] however was living north of the [[Trollshaws]].<ref name=NM/> They became a secretive wandering and nomadic people around [[Eriador]], far from Sauron's spies, little known or remembered, and their deeds were seldom recorded.

==History==
The [[Watchful Peace]] followed the loss of Arnor and after its end, the enemies concentrated mostly against [[Rhovanion]] and [[Gondor]]. During that time, the Rangers fought minor battles and skirmishes against [[orcs]] and [[wolves]] in order to keep the region safe. The [[hobbits]] of [[the Shire]] flourished under their protection.

During the rule of [[Arassuil]], the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] became more bold, daring to invade Eriador. The Rangers fought many battles trying to hold them back, but one party managed to reach the Shire, and were fought off by a party of brave Hobbits under [[Bandobras Took]] in {{TA|2747}}. Soon after, the [[Long Winter]] arrived and many lives were lost. [[Gandalf]] came to the aid of the Hobbits, and with his help, many survived.<ref name=ta/>
[[File:Steamey - After the death of Arathorn.jpg|thumb|''After the death of Arathorn'' by [[:Category:Images by Steamey|Steamey]]]]
In {{TA|2911|n}}, during [[Argonui]]'s rule, the [[Fell Winter (Third Age)|Fell Winter]] began with the [[Brandywine]] freezing over. This was a catalyst for [[White Wolves]] invading Eriador from the North. In the last year of his reign, great floods devastated [[Enedwaith]] and [[Minhiriath]] leaving [[Tharbad]] ruined and deserted.<ref name=ta>{{App|TA}}</ref> The following years were peaceful although [[Arador]] was killed by [[hill-trolls]] and his son [[Arathorn II]] was killed while hunting orcs.<ref name=tale>{{App|Tale}}</ref>

Arathorn's son, [[Aragorn|Aragorn II]] succeeded him, who between {{TA|2957|n}} to {{TA|2980|n}} took great journeys, serving in the armies of King [[Thengel]] of [[Rohan]], and Steward [[Ecthelion II]] of Gondor. Many of his tasks weakened [[Sauron]] and his allies.

[[Saruman]], jealous of Gandalf, secretly followed Gandalf's interest for the Hobbits and put spies in Bree and Southfarthing. In the years leading up to the [[War of the Ring]], his spies saw that the Shire was closely guarded by the Rangers. When Gandalf suspected that Bilbo Baggins possessed the [[One Ring]] the guard was doubled (perhaps at his request to Chieftain [[Aragorn]]). He also asked Aragorn to locate [[Gollum]].<ref name=ta/>

At that time Aragorn's Rangers were scattered and diminished. When [[Halbarad]] led a troop of the Rangers into the south to Aragorn's aid in the War, in haste he could muster no more than thirty in this company who fought in the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields|Battle of Pelennor Fields]].

Aragorn eventually became King Elessar of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] and the Rangers became once more a united people under the line of [[Elendil]] in the [[Fourth Age]].

== Portrayal in adaptations ==
[[File:The Lord of the Rings War in the North - Rangers of the North.jpg|300px|thumb|Rangers of the North in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''.]]'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:The Rangers of the North are called simply Rangers in the game. There were some scattered about Middle-earth, but there were also many who were organized. There was a group that [[Aragorn]] led to keep track of the Enemy's movement during "Stirrings in the Darkness". The main Ranger factions in the game are the Rangers of [[Esteldín]], the Wardens of [[Annúminas]], and later they merge into the [[Grey Company]].

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:The Rangers of the North first appear in the Prologue of the game. They have set up several barricades at [[Sarn Ford]] to prevent the [[Nazgûl]] from entering [[the Shire]]. They, however, fail to maintain their positions and are defeated.<ref>[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]], ''Prologue''</ref> Many Rangers are killed, some have reorganized their camp at Sarn Ford while others are patrolling and scoutring the surrounding lands.<ref>[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]], Chapter 2: Barrow-downs, ''Prologue''</ref>

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of the Rangers of the North|Images of the Rangers of the North]]

{{references}}

[[Category:Rangers]]
[[Category:Dúnedain of the North]]

Long Peace

2023-09-19T15:06:12Z

Lost Númenórean: /* History */ explained who Haleth was for better context in this section

[[File:Elena Kukanova - The days of The Long Peace.jpg|250px|thumb|''The days of The Long Peace'' by [[Elena Kukanova]]]]
The '''Long Peace''' is a term referring to the extended peace in [[Beleriand]] in the [[First Age]] during which [[Morgoth]] did not try to break the [[Siege of Angband]]. It began when [[Glaurung]] was defeated<ref name=Return>{{S|Return}}</ref> in the First Age year {{FA|260|n}}<ref name="GA260">{{GA|260}}</ref> and ended with the [[Dagor Bragollach]]<ref name=Fingolfin>{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref> in {{FA|455|n}}<ref>{{GA|145}}</ref> – lasting some 195 years.

During this period the [[Elves|Elven]] peoples in north west [[Middle-earth]] prospered. It was also during the Long Peace that the [[Edain]] passed into Beleriand from the east.

==History==
The forces of [[Darkness]] attempted to break the Siege of Angband. Glaurung the Worm managed to drive the [[Noldor]] off [[Ard-galen]], however he was too young, and was pushed back by [[Fingon]]. It was then decided that Glaurung should wait to mature until ready to strike back.<ref name=Return>{{S|Return}}</ref> This long wait allowed for the races of Beleriand to recover and prosper.

The first major event during those years was the arrival of the [[Edain]] into Beleriand, looking for the land of the [[Valar|Gods]] in the [[Uttermost West|West]]. [[Finrod]] quickly befriended these first [[Men]] and advised them to settle in [[Estolad]] in the realm of [[Amrod]].<ref>{{S|West}}</ref>

Around that time, the [[Haladin]], the [[Folk of Marach]], and the [[Easterlings (First Age)|Easterlings]] crossed over the [[Blue Mountains]] into [[Beleriand]]. The Haladin dwelt in [[Thargelion]] as scattered groups until a host of orcs [[Battle of the Gelion-Ascar Stockade|assaulted]] their territory in {{FA|375}}. They built [[Gelion-Ascar Stockade|a stockade]] between the angle of [[Gelion]] until [[Caranthir]]'s army could relieve them. [[Haleth]], who had become [[Chieftain of the Haladin|Chieftain]] following the death of her father and brother, declined a fief in his lands and moved on to [[Talath Dirnen]] to settle in the [[Forest of Brethil]].

In {{FA|402}}, [[Orcs]] attempted to break through the [[Pass of Aglon]], but the people of [[Bëor]] helped [[Maedhros]] and [[Maglor]] threw back the invaders.<ref>{{GA|125}}</ref> This was the first time Men fought on behalf of the [[Eldar]]. Their head was also given the region of [[Ladros]] of [[Dorthonion]].

The Marachians remained in Estolad after the Beorians, becoming close allies with the [[House of Fingolfin]] in [[Hithlum]] and then moved to the southern slopes of the [[Ered Wethrin]]; during the time of [[Hador]] in {{FA|416}} they were granted permanent fief of [[Dor-lómin]].

The period ended when the Siege was broken in the [[Dagor Bragollach]].<ref name=Fingolfin>{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref>
{{references}}
[[Category:Periods]]
[[fi:Pitkä rauha]]

Dagor Aglareb

2023-09-14T23:12:00Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Aftermath */ minor grammatical error corrected

{{battle
| name= Dagor Aglareb
| image=[[File:John Howe - The Siege of Angband.jpg|300px]]
| conflict= [[Wars of Beleriand]]
| date= {{FA|60}}
| place= Across the lands north of [[Beleriand]], and especially on the plain of [[Ard-galen]]
| result= Decisive victory for the [[Noldor]]
* Beginning of the [[Siege of Angband]] and the [[Long Peace]]
| side1= [[Noldor]]
| side2= Forces of [[Morgoth]]
| commanders1=[[Fingolfin]]
 [[Maedhros]]
| commanders2=[[Morgoth]]
| forces1=Unknown
| forces2=Unknown
| casual1=Unknown
| casual2=Completely destroyed, not one survivor<ref>{{S|13}}, p. 131 '...pursuing them across ard-galen destroyed them utterly, to the least and last...'</ref>
}}
The '''Dagor Aglareb''', the "'''Glorious Battle'''", was the third battle of the [[Wars of Beleriand]], fought between the [[Noldor]] and the forces of [[Morgoth]].

==Background==
{{Seealso|Dagor-nuin-Giliath}}
Before the [[Sun]] and [[Moon]] Morgoth had returned to [[Middle-earth]] after serving his imprisonment in [[Aman]]. From [[Angband]] he launched his [[First Battle|invasion]] on the [[Sindar]] living in [[Beleriand]]. The Sindar suffered heavy losses and were forced back deeper into their lands and for a time the [[Orcs]] roamed unmolested in Beleriand.<ref>{{S|10}}</ref>

The [[return of the Noldor]] to Middle-earth changed this, [[Fëanor]] and his followers fought against the Orcs of Morgoth in the [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]]<ref name="return">{{S|Return}}</ref> and were victorious however the battle resulted in the death of their leader Fëanor. Afterwards [[Fingolfin]]'s host arrived in Middle-earth with the first rising of the Moon and later the Sun, the Orcs cowered as they feared this new light and retreated back to the caves of Angband. In this time [[Fingon]] rescued his cousin [[Maedhros]] from [[Thangorodrim]].<ref name="return"/>

==History==
===Prelude===
During the sixty years following Dagor-nuin-Giliath, the [[Noldor]] established their foothold in Middle-earth as well as making contact with the Sindar living in Beleriand. Morgoth was informed from his spies that the Noldor were more busy with domestic affairs rather than martial vigilance and were not prepared for war. Morgoth chose this time to strike, the [[Ered Engrin]] spewed forth fire and Orcs poured from [[Angband]] across [[Ard-galen]]. The main host of the Orcs assaulted the highlands of [[Dorthonion]] while parts of the host passed through the [[Pass of Sirion]] in the west and [[Maglor's Gap]] in the east.<ref name="return"/>

===Battle===
The reports of the spies were wrong and the Noldor were more vigilant than first thought. Soon armies under [[Fingolfin]] and [[Maedhros]] counter-attacked from both east and west on the host at Dorthonion and the Orc host was caught between the hammer and anvil of the two Elven forces, with most of the Orcs being destroyed, and the remnant retreating towards [[Angband]]. The Noldor pursued them, and utterly destroyed what remained of their enemies within sight of the peaks of [[Thangorodrim]]. The bands of [[Orcs]] that broke off from the larger host and strayed into [[West Beleriand|West]] and [[East Beleriand]] were destroyed by other Elven forces.<ref name="return"/>

===Aftermath===
[[File:Jenny Dolfen - Then Fingon rose against him.jpg|thumb|''Then Fingon rose against him'' by [[Jenny Dolfen]]]]
The [[Noldor]], having been reminded of their ever-present danger, tightened their leaguer but they were unable to completely encircle Angband in the north as the Iron Mountains proved impassable because of the snow and ice. This was the beginning of the [[Siege of Angband]], which lasted almost four hundred years. Only scattered incidents broke this time of peace.<ref name="return"/>

After ninety-five years,<ref>{{GA|115}}</ref> Morgoth sent an army of Orcs to the north, turning west then south to [[Lammoth]] and they passed through the [[Firth of Drengist]] hoping to catch [[Fingolfin]] unawares by approaching his realm from the west. However the Noldor were aware of this army and it was quickly defeated by a force led by [[Fingon]]. Morgoth then perceived that the Orcs unaided could not defeat the Noldor, save in numbers, and so devised new [[dragons|evils]].<ref name="return"/>

A century later, [[Glaurung]], then only a half-grown [[dragon]], drove the Elves to the protection of the highlands, but he was forced to retreat from Ard-galen by the archers of [[Fingon]].

Morgoth ceased open assaults and during the [[Long Peace]] he employed his powers instead through stealth, treachery, and enchantment of prisoners.<ref name="return"/>

==Etymology==
''Dagor Aglareb'' is [[Sindarin]] for "Glorious Battle",<ref>{{S|Index}}</ref> it contains the elements ''[[dagor]]'' ("battle") + ''[[aglar]]'' ("glory") + [[A-affection|-eb]] (suffix).<ref>{{S|Appendix}}, entry ''aglar''</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In the earlier versions Dagor Aglareb was originally the second battle in the [[Wars of Beleriand]].<ref>{{GA|77|note}}</ref>

==See also==
* [[:Category:Images of Dagor Aglareb|Images of the Dagor Aglareb]]

{{references}}
{{warsofbeleriand}}
[[Category:Conflicts of the First Age]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Dagor Aglareb]]
[[fr:encyclo:evenements:1a:guerres:dagor_aglareb]]
[[fi:Dagor Aglareb]]

Talk:Sack of Eregion

2023-09-11T17:22:23Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Celebrimbor's defiance */ new section

This should also be added to the page priority list. --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 16:43, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

== Celebrimbor's defiance ==

I think this statement could use more explanation within the topic description.

Example, not giving up the location of the 3 rings... or not handing over the all the other rings that were made in secret. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 17:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Haradrim

2023-09-09T14:20:10Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Second Age */ removed 'at first' since it was redundant

{{people infobox
| name=Haradrim
| image=[[File:John_Howe - Southrons.jpg|250px]]
| caption="[[:File:John_Howe - Southrons.jpg|Southrons]]" by [[John Howe]]
| pronun={{respell|ha|rad|rim}}
| othernames=''Haradrim'' ([[Sindarin|S]]), ''Haradwaith'' (S), ''[[Swertings]]'' ([[Hobbitish|H]]), ''Southrons'' ([[Westron|W]]), ''[[Men of Darkness]]'' (W), ''[[Swarthy Men]]'' (W), ''Southerns'' (W), ''Men of Harad'' (W), ''Men of the South'' (W)
| origin= [[Awakening of Men]]
| location=[[Harad]], including [[Umbar]], [[Near Harad]] and [[Far Harad]]
| affiliation=[[Blue Wizards]], [[Númenóreans]], [[Sauron]], [[Black Númenóreans]]
| rivalry=[[Exiles of Númenor]], [[Gondorians]]
| language=Presumably numerous Haradric languages, different from [[Common Speech]]; [[Adûnaic]]; [[Westron]]; and the [[Drúadan language]] (at least formerly)<ref group=note>Due to the suggestion of [[Gondorian]] historians that the group originally came from Harad.</ref>
| members=
| lifespan=Shorter than [[Númenóreans]]<ref group=note>[[Castamir]] of [[House of Anárion]] lived to the age of 188, and another great-grandson of [[Calmacil (King of Gondor)|Calmacil]], [[Eldacar (King of Gondor)|Eldacar]], lived to the age of 235. Eldcar's children and grandchildren, [[Ornendil]], [[Aldamir]] and [[Hyarmendacil II]] lived for an average of 187 years. The same could theoretically be said for the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Castamir in Harad, and in point of fact these ages correspond to the general ages of Númenóreans during the period of [[Ar-Adûnakhôr]]'s reign in Númenór.</ref>
| distinctions=[[Gift of Ilúvatar]]
| height=Tall
| hair=Dark
| skin=Black, brown, dark, swarthy
| clothing=
| weapons=[[Oliphaunts]]; [[Black Breath]]}}

<center>{{quote|West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green.|''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Men]]}}</center>

'''Haradrim''' or the '''Southrons''' were the [[Men]] of [[Harad]], descendants of the [[Men]] who woke in the far eastern land of [[Hildórien]] near the end of the [[First Age]].<ref name="Uttermost">{{PM|Dwarves}}, pp. 306.</ref> They are the proud, doughty and warlike people of the Harad, in the south of [[Middle-earth]].<ref>{{webcite|author=Mark Fisher|articleurl=https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/menofharad.php|articlename=Men of Harad|dated=17 December 2015|website=[https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ Encyclopedia of Arda]|accessed=19 September 2021}}</ref> Ancient enemies of [[Gondor]],<ref>{{webcite|author=Mark Fisher|articleurl=https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/southrons.html|articlename=Southrons|dated=17 December 2015|website=[https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ Encyclopedia of Arda]|accessed=2 October 2021}}</ref> they allied with [[Sauron]] during the [[War of the Elves and Sauron]] and [[War of the Ring]].<ref>{{S|V}}, pp. 353</ref><ref group=note>In ''[[The Nature of Middle-earth]]'', with reference to the [[Blue Wizards]] in 'Note on the Delay of Gil-galad and the Númenóreans', it is said that [[Sauron]] took a long time to attack [[Eregion]], for his dominance and recruiting of forces was not entirely successful, and this was due to the actions of his powerful enemies in [[Rhûn]] and [[Harad]] that he hadn't paid much attention until then; ergo, Tolkien suggesting that certain denizens of both those lands played a role during the [[War of the Elves and Sauron]].</ref> Eventually, many turned against Sauron, when [[Manwë]] sent the [[Wizards]] to the southern lands of Middle-earth.<ref name="PMLast">{{PM|Last}}, pp. 384-85</ref>

==Origins==
The ancestors of the Haradrim were the [[Men]] who [[Awakening of Men|awoke]] in [[Hildórien]] during the [[Years of the Sun|age of the Sun]],<ref name="S12">{{S|12}}</ref> but stayed to the [[East]] of [[Middle-earth]], not joining the migration of the [[Edain]] to the [[Uttermost West]]<ref name=Uttermost/> after [[Morgoth]], the original [[Dark Lord]], came to corrupt them to his service whilst tricking them to abandon [[Ilúvatar]].<ref>{{MR|P4e}}, p. 346-349</ref> A [[Shadow]] ever after lay over all of humanity, even the Edain, wherein portions of the ancestors of [[Harad]] later began migrating after coming into conflict with other men that fell under the [[Shadow]].<ref name="S17">{{S|17}}</ref> Still some went West in search of the [[Light of Valinor]] and servants of Morgoth hunted them, but the majority of mankind refused alike the summons of the [[Valar]] and of Morgoth.<ref name="S17">{{S|17}}</ref>

The different peoples who moved to Harad, where the Sun is fierce because there are barely any clouds,<ref name="Gate">{{TT|IV3}}</ref> played no role in the tales of the First Age.<ref name=S12/><ref>{{L|229}}</ref> However, this sundering bereft them of the enlightenment and crafts that the Elves may have taught them,<ref>{{PE|17}}</ref><ref>{{MR|P3II7}}</ref> which made them vulnerable to their two later woes: [[Sauron]] and the [[Dúnedain]].<ref>{{MR|P4e}}, p. 310-3011</ref> Historians of [[Gondor]] believed that the [[Drúedain]] came from lands south of [[Mordor]], that they turned north into [[Ithilien]] before they reached the coasts of Harad and were the first Men to cross the [[Anduin]], possibly near [[Cair Andros]].<ref>{{UT|12b}}, pp. 339-340.</ref>

== History ==
=== Second Age ===
At first, for many centuries, the Haradrim were independent peoples, generally isolated from the rest of the world. However, in the Second Age they became increasingly caught between the ambitions of two great powers — namely [[Sauron]] and the [[Númenóreans]] — a circumstance which lasted thousands of years.<ref name="Rings">{{S|Rings}}</ref><ref name="Coasts">{{PM|Dwarves}}, pp. 304.</ref> Sailing East, the Númenóreans explored the coasts of [[Middle-earth]], including the coast lands of Harad.<ref name=Coasts/> The Númenóreans initially benefited the natives they contacted, by teaching them many things about agriculture and craftsmanship<ref name="Akallabeth">{{S|Akallabeth}}</ref><ref>{{App|Numenor}}, entry for the time after Minastir</ref> and later made settlements on the southern coasts, including the construction of the great city of [[Umbar]].<ref>{{TI|Riders}}</ref>

After the reign of [[Tar-Ciryatan]], the Númenóreans began to set themselves up as lords in Middle-earth as they demanded tribute of goods and wealth, causing the oppression of the Haradrim<ref name="SA">{{App|SA}}</ref><ref>{{PM|Second}}</ref> as with many other peoples whose lands included a coastline.<ref>{{PM|Akallabeth}}, §28</ref> Often Haradrim were killed or sold into slavery.<ref>{{PM|Elmar}}</ref> At first, Sauron didn't dare to challenge the Númenóreans as they expanded their control over Harad, until after the forging of the [[Rings of Power]] and the emergence of the [[Nazgûl]].<ref name="Akallabeth"/> Then, Sauron came as a ruler of almost all men east and south of the [[Ered Luin]], as both their king and their god.<ref name=Rings/> These men grew strong and built many towns and walls made from stone and they were fierce in war and armed with iron.<ref name=Rings/> However, those of Harad who sought freedom and rejected Sauron would venture to the woods or mountains in fear of being pursued by him.<ref name=Rings/><ref>{{HM|SD}}, pp. 345</ref>

In c. {{SA|1600}}, [[Manwë]] sent two [[Wizards]] to the southern and eastern lands of Middle-earth.<ref name=PMLast/> The [[Valar]] suspected there was a rebellion of good Haradrim but no leadership — ultimately they were very successful there in Harad. They arrived before Sauron's first [[War of the Elves and Sauron|war against the Elves]] and even on this war the Wizards had some influence.<ref name="NM3">{{NM|P3xviii}}</ref> They became known as [[Morinehtar]] and [[Rómestámo]].<ref name="PMLast"/> Because of their influence among the Haradrim, Sauron took a long time to [[Sack of Eregion|attack Eregion]], for his dominance and recruiting of forces was not entirely successful.<ref name=NM3/>

In {{SA|3261}}, [[Ar-Pharazôn]], the [[King of Númenor]], landed at [[Umbar]] with a great fleet and the people on the coasts fled before them.<ref name=SA/> Ar-Pharazôn and his host marched through Harad to meet Sauron's forces, but they fled from the Númenóreans and Sauron allowed himself to be taken to Númenor where he corrupted the King and his followers.<ref name="Influence">{{RK|V10}}</ref> Under Sauron's influence, the Númenóreans became even more ruthless to the locals of Harad, enslaving them and using them for human sacrifices.<ref name="Akallabeth"/>

In the following centuries the Haradrim were influenced by Sauron and [[Black Númenóreans]], those evil High Men who stayed in Harad and survived the [[Downfall of Númenor]].<ref name=Influence/> The Haradrim became enemies of [[Gondor]], as the Kingdom's southern borders were close to their lands.<ref>{{TT|Herbs}}, p. 659-660</ref> Shortly before the end of the Age, two Númenórean lords, [[Herumor]] and [[Fuinur]], rose to great power amongst the Haradrim.<ref name=Rings/>

However around the same time, the two Wizards, always operating in the East and the South, were able to hinder Sauron's operations, leading to his defeat in the [[War of the Last Alliance]].<ref name="PMLast"/> When Sauron's dominions of the Second Age fell with his demise in the War of the Last Alliance the Haradrim were freed from his direct control but not free of the effects of his long work on them, to which evil and darkness for the West had set in their hearts.<ref>{{UT|6a}}</ref><ref>{{UT|6b}}</ref> Additionally, some of the Haradrim, and the other servants of Sauron, turned from evil and became subject to the heirs of [[Elendil]].<ref name=Rings/>

=== Third Age ===
The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Númenórean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the [[King's Men]], who were afterwards called the Black Númenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil.<ref name="Gondor">{{App|A1iv}}</ref> After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, including those of Harad.<ref name=Gondor/> There was even intermarriage: [[Tarannon Falastur]], [[King of Gondor]], married a high-born Black Númenórean lady from an inland city in Harad; she is remembered as [[Queen Berúthiel]].<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Daphne Castell]]|articleurl=https://fantasticmetropolis.com/i/tolkien|articlename=The Realms of Tolkien|dated=2 November 1966|website=[https://fantasticmetropolis.com/i/tolkien ''The Realms of Tolkien'']|accessed=30 September 2021}}.</ref> However, most Black Númenórean intermarriage was with the Haradrim, and they became increasingly indistinguishable from the indigenous peoples.<ref name="annals"/> The Haradrim did not trouble the [[Realms in Exile]] for many centuries.<ref name="herbs">{{TT|Herbs}}</ref>

When Gondor took the haven of [[Umbar]] from the Black Númenóreans, in the year {{TA|1015}} they followed the Black Númenóreans against Umbar to recapture it.<ref name=Gondor/> Their great power was not enough against the sea-power of Gondor.<ref name=Gondor/> The attempts lasted for 35 years until, in {{TA|1050}}, [[Ciryaher]] defeated the Haradrim force by sending troops by land.<ref name=Gondor/> They acknowledged the overlordship of Gondor; the kings of Harad did homage and their sons were given as hostages in the court of the [[Kings of Gondor|King of Gondor]].<ref name="annals">{{App|Gondor}}</ref><ref name="AppA">{{App|South}}</ref> The sons of [[Castamir]] and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar, and there made a fortified haven and later called themselves the [[Corsairs of Umbar]].<ref name="Blood">{{PM|Elendil}}</ref> The Corsairs of Umbar continued to make war upon Gondor, attacking its ships and coasts when they had opportunity.<ref name=Blood/> Additionally, Castamir's progeny married women of the Harad - continuing the Numenorean [[Line of Elros]], though of which was spent after three generations.<ref name=Blood/><ref>{{webcite|author=David Seuferer|articleurl=http://tolkien.cro.net/humans/elrostre.html|articlename=Line of Elros|dated=8 February 1998|website=[https://tolkien.cro.net/ The Grey Havens]|accessed=27 September 2021}}</ref><ref group=note>The bloodline of Elros is spread amongst the Haradrim in Harad via [[Castamir]]'s children and grandchildren who later mate with the women of Harad, with the last known descendants of Elros within that region of Endor being [[Angamaitë]] and [[Sangahyando]].</ref>

Later, however, kings of Harad who were in league with [[Umbar]] rebelled against Gondor.<ref name="annals"/> In {{TA|1634}}, [[Minardil]] was slain at Pelargir by the Corsairs of Umbar, who were led by the great-grandsons of Castamir: [[Angamaitë]] and [[Sangahyando]].<ref name=Gondor/> [[Telumehtar]] who raided his coasts even as far as the [[Anfalas]], gathered his forces and in 1810 took Umbar by storm.<ref name="annals"/> In that war the last descendants of Castamir perished, and Umbar was again held for a while by the kings, however, the [[Battle of the Plains]] that befell Gondor resulted in Umbar being lost again, wherein it fell into the hands of the Men of the Harad.<ref name="annals"/>

The Haradrim later were allied with the [[Wainriders]], a confederation of [[Easterlings]], and the Men of [[Khand]].<ref name="annals"/> During that time they conquered Umbar.<ref name="annals"/> The simultaneous assaults from the north and the south brought the South-kingdom close to destruction.<ref name="annals"/> The Haradrim crossed the river [[Poros]] into [[South Ithilien]], but the [[Southern Army]], destroyed them.<ref name="annals"/> In the later years three great fleets were prepared in Umbar and Harad.<ref name=stew>{{App|Stewards}}</ref> Around the [[Long Winter]] they assailed the [[Outlands|coasts]] of Gondor, even [[Rohan]].<ref name=stew/> The Haradrim occupied [[Harondor]] and there was a long fight along the [[Poros]].<ref name=stew/> Stirred by emissaries of Sauron, they attempted once more to invade into [[Ithilien]] ({{TA|2885}}) but a combined force of Gondorians and [[Rohirrim]] defeated them at the [[Crossing of Poros]].<ref name=TA/><ref>{{App|Mark}}</ref>

In the meantime, it was said that the two Wizards, Morinehtar and Rómestámo ensured that the forces of the East and the South did not outnumber the West, thus helping secure victory for the [[Free peoples]] in the subsequent [[War of the Ring]].<ref name="PMLast"/> At some time before the War, Gandalf also wandered in the South, for unspecified errands, and he became known as "[[Gandalf/Names|Inkā-nūs]]" among the suspicious Haradrim, who saw him as a spy from [[Gondor|the North]].<ref name="Incanus"/>

At the time of that War, the Haradrim were in league with Sauron and fought alongside his [[Orcs|Orc]] army. The Haradrim were among the forces led by the [[Witch-king]] that attacked [[Osgiliath]] on [[20 June|June 20]], {{TA|3018}}, at the beginning of the War.<ref name="Great">{{App|Great}}</ref> More Haradrim continued to come up the [[Harad Road]] to Mordor.<ref name="herbs"/> Regiments of Haradrim joined the host from [[Minas Morgul]] marching to the [[Pelennor Fields]].<ref name="MinasTirith">{{RK|V1}}</ref> Sauron's forces besieged [[Minas Tirith]], and the Mûmakil of Harad were used to bring forward war-towers and siege-engines to test the City's defences.<ref name=MinasTirith/> During the battle, the chief leader of the Haradrim army bore a standard of a [[Black Serpent]] on a red field; he was slain by King [[Théoden]] of [[Rohan]].<ref name=fields>{{RK|V6}}</ref><ref name="Great"/>

The Haradrim rallied around their [[Oliphaunts|Mûmakil]] which the horses of the Rohirrim feared to approach.<ref name=fields/> As the battle wore on, more Haradrim including Men from Far Harad were sent onto the field by [[Gothmog (Lieutenant of Morgul)|Gothmog]].<ref name=fields/> The Corsairs were prevented from reaching the battle, having been defeated by Aragorn and the [[Dead Men of Dunharrow]].<ref>{{RK|V9}}</ref> Haradrim also fought at the [[Battle of the Morannon]] on March 25.<ref name=Influence/> Sauron's army of Men, Orcs and Trolls outnumbered the Men of the West by more than ten to one, but the battle ended once the [[One Ring]] was destroyed in [[Mount Doom]] and Sauron was vanquished.<ref>{{RK|VI3}}</ref> The Haradrim held out long and were among the last of Sauron's forces to be defeated.<ref name=fields/> Some of the Haradrim fled or surrendered, though others banded together in their hatred and fought on stalwartly.<ref>{{RK|VI4}}</ref>

=== Fourth Age ===
After the [[War of the Ring]] the newly crowned king of the [[Reunited Kingdom]], [[Elessar]], made peace with the Men of Harad and completely subdued Umbar.<ref name="Gondor"/><ref name="Éomer">{{App|Mark}}, Third Line, entry for King Éomer</ref> Embassies travelled from Harad to Aragorn's court, and although Aragorn's reign was largely one of peace, it was occasionally necessary for him and [[Éomer]], [[Kings of Rohan|King]] of [[Rohan]], to travel to the southlands to maintain peace with Harad.<ref>{{RK|Steward}}, pp. 968.</ref>

It is possible that later generations of Haradrim, having the memory of the two Wizards who wandered among them, followed [[magic]] "cults" that lasted long into the Fourth Age or later.<ref name="Letter211"/>

== Traits and culture ==
[[File:Alan Lee - Oliphaunt.jpg|thumb|left|"Oliphaunt" by [[Alan Lee]]]]
The "fierce dark men of the South."<ref>{{TI|Fangorn}}, pp. 434-435</ref> are of various ethnicities and cultures; some are organized into kingdoms.<ref name="herbs"/><ref name=Gondor/> The Haradrim were described by a messenger as "cruel and tall.",<ref name=Siege/> "a grim folk, and not easily daunted by shade or blade."<ref>{{WR|XII}}, pp. 416.</ref> Some of the Men in the south had weapons of iron.<ref>{{S|V}}, pp. 349</ref> At the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]], the Haradrim bore scimitars that glittered like stars.<ref name=fields/> Those of Harad had tamed the massive ''[[Oliphaunts|Mûmakil]]'' beasts and used them in warfare and, like their masters, were decorated with scarlet and gold. They even strapped towers on their backs, used by Haradrim archers and spearmen.<ref name="herbs"/> The Haradrim had seemingly weaponised aspects of the [[Nazgûl]]'s [[Black Breath]], or at least tipped it upon arrows and darts during the last retreat before the city of [[Minas Tirith]] was besieged.<ref name=Siege/><ref>{{RK|Houses}}</ref>

The people of [[Far Harad]] are described as black-skinned, but there is also a group of them described as "black men like [[half-trolls]] with white eyes and red tongues" and "troll-men".<ref name=fields/> It is unclear whether these were just large Men who are being compared to Trolls or an implication of crossbreeding between the two races.<ref>{{webcite|author=Mark Fisher|articleurl=https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/h/halftrolls.php|articlename=Half-trolls|dated=17 December 2015|website=[https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ Encyclopedia of Arda]|accessed=1 October 2021}}</ref> The Haradrim from [[Near Harad]] were those most familiar and most closely encountered during the War of the Ring:<ref name="Scarlet">{{TT|Herbs}}, pp. 660-661.</ref> when [[Faramir]] ambushed a company of Haradrim on the [[North Road]], Frodo and Sam witnessed a Harad warrior crashing at their feet, a man with "brown skin", with black plaits of hair braided with gold,<ref name=Scarlet/> a scarlet tunic, as do the other Haradrim, and a gold collar.<ref name=Gate/> He was armed with a scimitar and garbed with a corslet of brazen scales. Their standards are scarlet, and their great beasts, the ''Mûmakil'', have scarlet and gold trappings.<ref name=Scarlet/> They carry round spiked shields, painted yellow and black.<ref name="herbs"/> One of the great chieftains of the Haradrim also bore a [[Black Serpent]] as his emblem, against a field of red.<ref>{{webcite|author=Mark Fisher|articleurl=https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/serpents.html|articlename=Serpents|dated=17 December 2015|website=[https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ Encyclopedia of Arda]|accessed=19 September 2021}}</ref>

===Languages===
Very little is known about the language(s) of Harad though the word "Mûmak", the name of the great war-[[oliphaunt]]s of Harad, is stated to come directly from a language of Harad.<ref name="Language">{{webcite|author=J E a Tyler|articleurl=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J-WWMtIVl_gC&pg|articlename=The Complete Tolkien Companion|dated=2 October 2012|website=[https://books.google.com/ M - Page 446]|accessed=20 September 2021}}</ref> To the [[Gondorians]] the voices of the Haradrim sounded harsh, like shouts of beasts.<ref name=Siege>{{RK|Siege}}</ref> Albeit having a meaning in [[Quenya]] ("fate"), the name ''[[Umbar (word)|umbar]]'' is said to be adapted from the indigenous languages of Harad and not from [[Elvish]] or [[Adûnaic]] script.<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Verlyn Flieger]]|articleurl=https://muse.jhu.edu/article/266269|articlename=The Music and the Task: Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth|dated=14 June 2009|website=[https://muse.jhu.edu/ Project MUSE]|accessed=20 September 2021}}</ref><ref name=AppendixF>{{App|Men}}</ref><ref name="Names">{{App|Letters}}, Note, ''The names of the letters''</ref>

[[Gandalf]] stated that his name in "the south" is "[[Gandalf/Names#Incánus|Incánus]]", which is apparently "alien", that is neither [[Westron]], nor Elvish, nor explicable by the surviving tongues of Northern Men. A note in the [[Thain's Book]] states that it is a form adapted to Quenya of a word in the tongue of the Haradrim thought ''Inkā-nūsh'' (or possibly ''Inkā-nūs''), meaning "North-spy".<ref name="Incanus">{{UT|Istari}}, pp. 382-384.</ref>

== Etymology ==
''Haradrim'' is a [[Sindarin]] name, consisting of the elements ''[[harad]]'' ("south") + ''[[rim]]'' ("host") thus meaning "South-people".<ref>{{L|144}}, p. 178</ref> Additionally, the [[Elves]] named the land and its people ''Haradwaith'', "South-folk", from the Sindarin ''harad'', meaning "south", and ''gwaith'', meaning "people".<ref name=Language/> The [[Hobbits]] called the area the ''Sunlands'', and the people ''[[Swertings]]''.<ref name=Gate/>

''Barangils'' is a [[Gondorian]] term for the people of Harad; ’swerting’ derives from ''swart'' (’swarthy’).<ref>[[Wayne G. Hammond]], "Page 764", in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', ed. by Wayne G. Hammond and [[Christina Scull]] (Houghton Mifflin, 2005)</ref> The Elvish name seems to contain '''baran''' ’dark, swart, dark-brown’ (BARÁN) and possibly the suffix '''-il''' also seen in '''ernil''' ’prince’.<ref>{{UT|6a}}</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
Early variant names for this people were the ''Barangils'', the ''Haradwaith'', and ''Haradrians''.<ref>{{WR|2|IV}}</ref><ref>{{SD|Mordor}}, pp. 16-7</ref> In early drafts of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', anglicized names for the Haradrim in the text, were ''Silharrows'' and ''Harwan'', which according to [[Christopher Tolkien]] were derived from the name for the Aethiopians.<ref name=Fangorn>{{TI|Fangorn}}, Note 4, pp.439</ref> "Men of Sunharrowland" (or "of Harrowland") are other two anglicized names.<ref name=Harrowland>{{TI|Fangorn}}, pp. 435</ref> In early drafts of ''Lord of the Rings'', ''Harns'' was a Sindarin equivalent for the term Haradrim.<ref>{{WR|XII}}, pp. 253.</ref> It's based on [[harn]] ’southern’ (KHYAR-) and is an English plural.<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Roman Rausch]]|articleurl=http://www.sindanoorie.net/art/RS_TI_WR_Harns.html#Harns|articlename=Harns|dated=2 July 2016|website=[http://www.sindanoorie.net/ Sindanórië]|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=https://www.eldamo.org/content/words/word-3643936511.html|articlename=Harn|dated=16 April 2021|website=[https://www.eldamo.org/ Eldamo - An Elvish Lexicon|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref> Additionally, Haradwaith has the anglicized name ''(Sun)Harrowland''.<ref name=Fangorn/> For more explanation on those names, see [[#The "Sigelwaran"|below]].

In the earliest narrative of the legendarium in ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]'', Tolkien mentioned the movement of Men, after the [[Palisor|War of Palisor]]. After [[Nuin]] died at the bands of the Goblins through the treachery of Men, many kindreds of Men were driven to the eastern deserts and the southern forests, whence came dark and savage peoples. <ref name="Palisor">{{LT1|X}}, pp. 336.</ref>

Additionally, it was revealed that [[Manwë]] was unaware of where the beginning of Men should be, whether the north, south or east.<ref>{{LT1|IX}}, p. 317</ref> In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', [[Eärendil]] and [[Voronwe]]'s voyage on [[Vingilótë]] to southern Haradwaith where there is mention of Tree-men and Pygmies.<ref>{{LT2|V}}</ref><ref group=note>The habited land in question featuring "Dark regions, Fire mountains, Tree-men, Pygmies, and Sarqindi or cannibal-ogres" is definitely southern Haradwaith rather than the [[Dark Lands]], due to another note mentioning some southern Isles beyond that region, and these can only be the hills that became islands mentioning in ''[[The Chaining of Melko]]'', which must have been a product of the tumults that lead to the formation of the [[Inner Seas]], when the [[Belegaer]] and [[Eastern Sea]] flowed into the [[Sea of Ringil]]. And as we know, it was South of the Inner Seas that the South Lands were located. Ergo, Eärendil simply visited areas that would later be part of the [[Black Númenórean]] southern realms, beyond the realm of [[Umbar]].</ref>

=== Earlier account of the Two Wizards ===
In the published works, all the Wizards were originally sent in the year {{TA|1000}} as emissaries to Middle-earth along with [[Gandalf]], [[Saruman]] and [[Radagast]].<ref name=TA>{{App|TA}}</ref> The above article gives information based on a late essay by Tolkien concerning the two Wizards, published in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]''.

However in some earlier time, when asked about the other two Wizards, Tolkien speculated that they went to the distant regions, including the lands of Harad, far out of Númenórean range. Whether together or independent of each other, the two may have fallen from their appointed task, wherein they may have founded 'magic' cults amongst the peoples of the East and South, which existed beyond the downfall of the [[Sauron|Lord of the Rings]].<ref name="Letter211">{{L|211}}</ref>

==Inspiration==
[[Christopher Tolkien]] linked the Haradrim with ancient Aethiopians.<ref name=Harrowland/><ref name=Fangorn/> In an interview from 1966, Tolkien likened [[Berúthiel]] to the giantess [[Wikipedia:Skaði|Skaði]] of Norse mythology, since they both shared a dislike for "seaside life".<ref name=Interview>{{webcite|author=[[Daphne Castell]]|articleurl=https://fantasticmetropolis.com/i/tolkien|articlename=The Realms of Tolkien|dated=|website=[https://fantasticmetropolis.com/i/tolkien ''The Realms of Tolkien'']|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref><ref>[[Humphrey Carpenter]], ''[[The Inklings (book)|The Inklings]]'', "Thursday evenings", pp. 137-8</ref> Additionally, Tolkien scholar [[Tom Shippey]] stated in reference to the 'black men like half-trolls' passage from ''[[The Return of the King]]'' that Tolkien was attempting to write like a medieval chronicler in describing the [[Rohirrim]]'s encounter with a Haradrim: "[...] and when medieval Europeans first encountered sub-Saharan Africans, they were genuinely confused about them, and rather frightened."<ref name="African">{{webcite|author=[[Tom Shippey]]|articleurl=http://www.tolkien.co.uk/jrrtolkien/interviews_shippey.asp|articlename=An Interview with Tom Shippey - Questions and answers with Tom Shippey|dated=17 October 2001|website=[https://www.harpercollins.com/ Harper Collins]|accessed=19 September 2021}}</ref> He noted that Tolkien had pointed out in his early scholarly works "the ancient English seemed to have a belief in fire-demons, who naturally enough had skin like soot – their word for them, ‘harwan’, is related to Latin ‘carbo’, ‘soot,’ or carbon."<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Dimitra Fimi]]|articleurl=http://dimitrafimi.com/2018/12/02/revisiting-race-in-tolkiens-legendarium-constructing-cultures-and-ideologies-in-an-imaginacry-world/|articlename=Revisiting Race in Tolkien’s Legendarium: Constructing Cultures and Ideologies in an Imaginary World|dated=2 December 2018|website=[http://www.dimitrafimi.com/ Dimitra Fimi]|accessed=19 September 2021}}</ref><ref name=African/> Shippey concluded by remarking that, "An Anglo-Saxon meeting an African for the first time might then really wonder - for a moment, from a distance - whether this was a demon from his own mythology. This doesn't mean that Tolkien shared the mythology, or the mistake."<ref>{{webcite|author=Leslie A. Donovan|articleurl=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BnCADwAAQBAJ&pg|articlename=Approaches to Teaching Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings and Other Works|dated=1 October 2015|website=[https://books.google.com/ Tolkien's Haradrim]|accessed=19 September 2021}}</ref>

===The "Sigelwaran"===
Much of Tolkien's influence for Harad and the Haradrim came about from his essay ''[[Sigelwara Land]]'', in which he examined the etymology of ''Sigelwaran'' (and the more usual form ''Sigelhearwan'') — the [[Old English]] word for Ethiopians.<ref name=CG/><ref name=TB1>[http://www.tolkienbooks.net/php/details.php?reference=13590 Medium Aevum. 1932], [http://www.tolkienbooks.net/php/details.php?reference=13710 Medium Aevum. 1934], at [http://www.tolkienbooks.net/ TolkienBooks.net] (accessed 2 February 2013)</ref> The essay was originally published in two parts: part one appeared in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 1, No. 3) in [[1932]], and part two appeared in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2) in [[1934]].<ref name=TB1>[http://www.tolkienbooks.net/php/details.php?reference=13590 Medium Aevum. 1932], [http://www.tolkienbooks.net/php/details.php?reference=13710 Medium Aevum. 1934], at [http://www.tolkienbooks.net/ TolkienBooks.net] (accessed 2 February 2013)</ref> The article investigated why there was a distinct and several times attested [[Old English]] name for the Ethiopians (namely '''Sigelwaran, Sigelhearwan''')<ref name=CG>{{CG|RG}}, pp. 889-90</ref> as actual biblical names were usually adapted, not translated.<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Roman Rausch]]|articleurl=http://www.sindanoorie.net/art/RS_TI_WR_Barangils.html|articlename=Barangils|dated=2 July 2016|website=[http://www.sindanoorie.net/ Sindanórië]|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref>

Tolkien remarked that the word includes elements not current in Old English and argues from there on that it must be older and preserved at least a name, "if no more, from the vanished native mythology or its borderland of half-mythical geography."<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 1", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 1, No. 3), pp. 192</ref> As the initial element '''Sigel''' ’Sun’ comes into question, which is attested in ''[[Beowulf]]'' and has furthermore cognates in other languages, as e.g. the name of the s-rune.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 2", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2), pp. 98</ref> Another candidate is '''sigel''', '''sigle''' describing "a round jewel or golden ornament",<ref name="Gimm">[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 2", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2), pp. 104</ref> originating from Latin '''sigillum''', which in its turn refers to "a small image or figure, the impress of a stamp or seal."<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 2", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2), pp. 102</ref> Tolkien then suggested that the two words had mutual influence on each other; and he remarks on the usage of ''gimm'' ’precious stone, jewel’ for the sun.<ref name=Gimm/> For the second element '''hearwa''' he discusses several primitive candidates all having to do with the colour ’black’, so that the name may mean something akin to ’those who were made black by the sun’.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 2", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2), pp. 110</ref><ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 2", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2), pp. 109</ref> As he concluded, "such guesswork is naturally inconclusive [...] giving insight into English and northern tradition and imagination."<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 2", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2), pp. 110</ref><ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "Sigelwara Land Part 2", in ''Medium Ævum'' (Vol. 3, No. 2), pp. 111</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
===Films===
'''2001-03: [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (film series)]]:'''
:The Haradrim appear briefly in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers|The Two Towers]]'' when Frodo and [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] witness a raid on one of their columns by [[Faramir|Faramir's]] rangers. They are featured more prominently in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King|The Return of the King]]'', in which the battle between the [[Rohirrim]] and the [[Oliphaunts|Mûmakil]] is a major action sequence. While the ''[[The Return of the King|book]]'' depicts the Southron army as primarily cavalry armed with scimitars, we see no horsemen in the movie: the Haradrim fight almost exclusively from platforms mounted on the backs of their monstrous [[Oliphaunts]]. They have also adorned the animals' tusks with spikes and shafts that crush and impale numerous enemy horsemen. The costumes of the Haradrim in the movie are Middle Eastern in style and dark brown or black in colour, while a companion book, ''Lord of the Rings: Creatures'', stated that the Haradrim were based on 12th century Saracens.<ref>{{webcite|author=HarperCollins|articleurl=https://archive.org/details/lordofringstwoto00braw/mode/2up|articlename=The Lord of the Rings: Two Towers - Creatures|dated=6 November 2002|website=[[HarperCollins]]|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref>

'''2012-14: [[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' (film series)]]:'''
:The Ringwraith of Harad, also known as the Dark Headsman was a [[Nazgûl]] who was revived by [[Sauron]] and summoned to [[Dol Guldur]].<ref>{{webcite|author=Weta Workshop Editors|articleurl=https://www.wetanz.com/shop/miniature-guns-props/helm-of-the-ringwraith-of-harad|articlename=HELM OF THE RINGWRAITH OF HARAD|dated=6 November 2012|website=[[Weta Workshop]]|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref> He was once a King of the Haradrim that was given a [[Ring of Power]] by Sauron the deceiver and was corrupted to serve him. The Witch-king and the other Ringwraiths were buried in a dungeon in the [[High Fells of Rhudaur]] after the [[Battle of Fornost|fall]] of Angmar. Later, Gandalf, following [[Galadriel]]'s advice, visits the High Fells and discovers that the Nazgûl's cells were empty, broken open from the inside. Through this investigation, he is convinced that the Necromancer in Dol Guldur is indeed [[Sauron]]. In the [[Attack on Dol Guldur]], The Witch-King, along with the other Nazgûl, participates by fighting [[Saruman]] and [[Elrond]], members of the [[White Council]]. In the end, he and the other Nine are driven back to [[Mordor]] by Galadriel and her [[Phial of Galadriel|phial]], his master also eventually following suit.

===Radio series===
'''1981: [[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1981 radio series)]]:'''
:[[Éowyn|Dernhelm]] warns [[Théoden]] of the coming of the chieftain. He kills the chieftain, but is killed by the [[Witch-king]] almost immediately after.

===Video games===
'''2003: [[The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring]]:'''
:The Haradrim appeared and are known as the 'Haradrim Slayers'.<ref>{{webcite|author=Eressior|articleurl=https://www.ign.com/articles/2011/06/14/the-lord-of-the-rings-war-of-the-ring-perfect-walkthrough-1110162|articlename=Perfect Walkthrough|dated=14 June 2011|website=IGN|accessed=2 October 2021}}</ref>

'''2006: [[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]:'''
:The Haradrim and the Corsairs of Umbar appear in much merchandise for the film trilogy, such as toys. The Corsairs are from the Mordor faction, and are equipped with knives and fire-bombs.<ref>{{webcite|author=Games and Grub Editors|articleurl=http://gamesandgrub.blogspot.com/2011/04/battle-for-middle-earth-2-good-campaign_1.html|articlename=Battle for Middle Earth 2 - Good Campaign - Mission 7 - Erebor|dated=1 April 2011|website=[RPGnet|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref>

'''2007: [[The Lord of the Rings Online]]:'''
:The Nazgûl appear throughout the game, and three are Haradrim: 'The Grim Southron', 'The High Sorcerer of Harad', and 'The Forsaken Reaver'. The Corsairs were led by four brothers who falsely call themselves the Heirs of Castamir. These were Azruthor, Dolgimil, Azgarzôr, and the eldest Balakhôr the Scourge. The player negotiated with a Corsair named Jajax, who ended up siding with the player against the Heirs and their followers.

'''2014: [[Middle-earth: Shadow of War]]:'''
:Suladân is an antagonist who, before his fall, was a noble Númenóreans King who ruled the nation of Harad during the Second Age. During his rule, he sought to go up against Sauron where he led an army of Númenórean soldiers to lay siege on the Dark Lord's fortress in Mordor. Before he sought to engage him, he was surprised that the Dark Lord surrendered and offered a Ring of Power to him. The temptation was too great, and Suladân eventually moved Sauron from the position of enemy to advisor. As Suladân's power grew, so did Sauron's influence over him. He eventually fell completely under the Dark Lord's power to become one of the nine Nazgûl. Additionally, Baranor is a playable character who is a captain in Gondor's guard, originally from Harad, before being adopted by the wealthy Gondorian family.<ref>{{webcite|author=David Smith|articleurl=https://www.theaureview.com/games/games-review-middle-earth-shadow-of-war-the-desolation-of-mordor-xbox-one-2018/|articlename=Games Review: Middle-earth: Shadow of War – The Desolation of Mordor (Xbox One, 2018)|dated=18 May 2018|website=[RPGnet|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref>

===Other===
'''1982: [[Middle-earth Role Playing]]:'''
:[[Iron Crown Enterprises]] produced a series of books for their tabletop roleplaying game ''[[Middle-earth Role Playing]]'' containing information about Harad and content allowing games to be set there. Additionally, Herumor is given an extended history, and Fuinur is revealed as his older brother. Key publications included the setting books ''[[Umbar: Haven of the Corsairs]]'' (1982),<ref>{{webcite|author=Brenda Gates Spielman|articleurl=https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=2534|articlename=Umbar: Haven of the Corsairs|dated=16 April 1982|website=RPGnet|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref> ''[[Far Harad: The Scorched Land]]'' (1988),<ref>{{webcite|author=Charles Crutchfield|articleurl=https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=2555|articlename=Far Harad: The Scorched Land|dated=16 April 1988|website=RPGnet|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref> ''[[Forest of Tears]]'' (1990),<ref>{{webcite|author=Charles Crutchfield|articleurl=https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=2511|articlename=Forest of Tears|dated=16 April 1990|website=RPGnet|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref> as well as the adventure books ''[[Warlords of the Desert]]'' (1989),<ref>{{webcite|author=Charles Crutchfield|articleurl=https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=2505|articlename=Warlords of the Desert|dated=16 April 1989|website=RPGnet|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref> ''[[Hazards of the Harad Wood]]'' (1989),<ref>{{webcite|author=John Crowdis|articleurl=https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=2529|articlename=Hazards of the Harad Wood|dated=16 April 1989|website=RPGnet|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref> and ''[[Greater Harad]] (1990).<ref>{{webcite|author=William E. Wilson|articleurl=https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=2560|articlename=Greater Harad|dated=16 April 1990|website=[RPGnet|accessed=26 September 2021}}</ref>

'''1994: [[The Two Towers MUD]]:'''
:The Haradrim are featured alongside the [[Uruk-hai]], [[Easterlings]], [[Númenóreans]], and [[Variag]].

'''2001: [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]:'''
:The Haradrim and the Corsairs of Umbar appear in much merchandise for the film trilogy, such as toys and card sets within the TCG.

'''2001: [[The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game]]:'''
:Suladân, the "Serpent Lord", is the name of the chieftain Haradrim leader who King Théoden kills, and is who players often refer to as the "[[Black Serpent]]" after his standard.<ref>{{webcite|author=Tell Me A Tale, Great Or Small Editors|articleurl=https://tellmeatalegreatorsmall.blogspot.com/2019/09/armies-of-middle-earth-sbg-serpent.html|articlename=Armies of Middle-Earth SBG: The Serpent Horde in the Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game|dated=25 September 2019|website=Tell Me A Tale, Great Or Small|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref><ref name="Hasharin">{{webcite|author=Simmuskhan|articleurl=http://simbattleboard.blogspot.com/2020/04/golden-king-of-abrakhan-and-entourage.html|articlename=Golden King of Abrakhan and Entourage|dated=23 April 2020|website=Simmuskhan's Battle Blog|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref> Some of the Haradrim are assassins called 'Hasharin', wherein there are characters such as "The Golden King" and "Dalamyr".<ref name=Hasharin/> Additionally, ''Half Trolls'' are "Mahûd men" of Far Harad who were altered to the size and strength of the Olog-hai of Sauron.<ref>{{webcite|author=Simmuskhan|articleurl=http://simbattleboard.blogspot.com/2019/09/for-fathers-day-this-year-i-requested.html|articlename=Far Harad|dated=11 September 2019|website=Simmuskhan's Battle Blog|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref> Units include "Half Troll Warband" and "Half Troll of Far Harad".<ref>{{webcite|author=Simmuskhan|articleurl=http://simbattleboard.blogspot.com/2012/02/battle-report-dwarves-vs-haradrim.html|articlename=Battle Report - Dwarves vs Haradrim - Contest of Champions|dated=24 February 2012|website=Simmuskhan's Battle Blog|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref> [[Games Workshop]] had produced miniatures and rules relating to Harad, including for Mûmak, The Golden King of Abrakhân, Half Trolls, Haradrim Warriors and Corsairs of Umbar.<ref>{{webcite|author=Games Workshop Editors|articleurl=https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/War-Mumak-Of-Harad-2018|articlename=War Mûmak™ Of Harad™|dated=24 February 2019|website=[[Games Workshop]]|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Games Workshop Editors|articleurl=https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/The-Golden-King-of-Harad|articlename=The Golden King of Abrakhân|dated=24 February 2019|website=[[Games Workshop]]|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Games Workshop Editors|articleurl=https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Half-Trolls|articlename=Half Trolls|dated=24 February 2019|website=[[Games Workshop]]|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Games Workshop Editors|articleurl=https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Haradrim-Warriors-2018|articlename=Haradrim™ Warriors|dated=24 February 2019|website=[[Games Workshop]]|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Games Workshop Editors|articleurl=https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Corsairs-Of-Umbar-2018|articlename=Corsairs of Umbar™|dated=4 July 2018|website=[[Games Workshop]]|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref>In order to maintain their rule over the lands of Harad, the lords of Umbar installed client kings, chieftains who had submitted to their will. Any chieftain who opposed their rule was quickly slain. In order to facilitate their rule, the lords of Umbar established the order of the Hásharii.

'''2002: [[The Lord of the Rings Roleplaying Game]]:'''
:The Haradrim are featured amongst the [[Men of Darkness]].<ref>{{webcite|author=Davenport|articleurl=https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9342.phtml|articlename=REVIEW OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS ROLEPLAYING GAME CORE BOOK|dated=16 December 2002|website=RPGnet|accessed=2 October 2021}}</ref>

'''2011: [[The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game]]:'''
: The Haradrim are featured amongst a variety of sets, including ''The Sands of Harad''.<ref>{{webcite|author=Neil Shuck|articleurl=https://meeples.wordpress.com/2017/09/20/knowing-your-angmar-from-your-erebor-getting-started-with-lord-of-the-rings-the-card-game/|articlename=Knowing your Angmar from your Erebor: Getting started with Lord of the Rin|dated=20 September 2017|website=Meeples and Miniatures Podcast|accessed=3 October 2021}}</ref>

{{references|note}}

== See also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Haradrim|Images of Haradrim]]
{{references}}
[[Category:Haradrim]]
[[Category:Men]]
[[Category:Sindarin demonyms]]
[[Category:Servants of Sauron]]
[[de:Haradrim]]
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/hommes/haradrim]]
[[fi:Haradrim]]

Talk:Second Fall of Minas Ithil

2023-09-08T16:46:57Z

Lost Númenórean: /* No mention of Orcs? */ Reply

== No mention of Orcs? ==

The article page makes it sound like only evil men took part in the siege, led by the Nazgul.

I highly doubt that was the case.

Orcs had repopulated Mordor by this time. Perhaps not in the tens of thousands, but surely enough to take part in the siege.

Thoughts? [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 21:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

:Did you read the chapter The Forbidden Pool, which was stated as the reference (reference number 8) after the statement about men before you asked your question on this discussion page? The passage about the second conquest of Minas Ithil in the chapter The Forbidden Pool mentions men and it does not mention Orcs. The page about The Second Fall of Minas Ithil merely states what Tolkien wrote who took Minas Ithil ("But it was takem by fell men [...]"). The article does not make a statement that only men took part in the siege, because the article does not use a qualifying statement, such as "only". There is no need for additional speculation. By the way, the entry about Steward Denethor I in appendix A mentions that in the last years of Steward Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor. There is no mentioning of Orcs appearing in Ithilien (and Minas Ithil is in Ithilien) before that. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 08:32, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
::Valid points! Thanks for the reply. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 16:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Second Fall of Minas Ithil

2023-09-06T21:35:46Z

Lost Númenórean: /* No mention of Orcs? */ new section

Gothmog (Lieutenant of Morgul)

2023-07-27T16:19:01Z

Lost Númenórean: /* History */ removed reference to Witch King as he wasn't referred to by that name by the time of this battle. Lord of the Nazgul is most appropriate.

{{disambig-two|the Lieutenant of Morgul|Balrog of the First Age|[[Gothmog (balrog)]]}}
{{evil infobox
| name=Gothmog
| image=[[File:John Howe - Gothmog 01.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Gothmog" by [[John Howe]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=Lieutenant of [[Morgul]]
| position=Second-in-command to the [[Witch-king]]
| location=[[Mordor]]
| affiliation=[[Sauron]], the [[Witch-king]]
| language=presumably [[Westron]] and/or [[Black Speech]]
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=probably [[15 March]] {{TA|3019}}
| deathlocation=[[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| race=Unknown
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
{{Pronounce|Gothmog.mp3|Ardamir}}

'''Gothmog''' was a lieutenant of [[Minas Morgul]]. He shared his name with [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]], Lord of [[Balrogs|Balrogs]] from the [[First Age]].<ref>{{S|Index}}</ref>

== History ==
At the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]] he was second-in-command to the Lord of the [[Nazgûl]]. He commanded the forces of Morgul after the Lord of the Nazgûl was slain by [[Éowyn]].<ref>{{RK|V6}}</ref>

His fate is never specified; presumably he perished along with almost all of the servants of Sauron that fought before the gates of [[Minas Tirith]], or he fled with the others out of Rammas and across the [[Anduin]].

== Origin ==
Almost nothing is known of Gothmog, not even what being he was. Tolkien scholars speculate that he might have been one of the following:
*A [[Men|Man]],<ref>{{webcite|author=Steuard Jensen|articleurl=http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/Gothmog.txt|articlename=Gothmog as a Human|website=tolkien.slimy.com}}</ref> in which case he was probably a [[Black Númenóreans|Black Númenórean]] like the [[Mouth of Sauron]]
*One of the [[Nazgûl]],<ref>{{HM|Guide}}, p. 172</ref> although [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] never specifically mentions his name among the Nazgûl.
*He could be anything from an [[Orcs|Orc]] or [[Uruk-hai|Uruk]], (although he had a Sindarin name) or a [[Boldog]], a fallen [[Maiar|Maia]] in Orc form.

== Portrayal in adaptations ==
{{Gallery
|title=Gothmog in adaptations
|height=150
|width=200
|lines=3
|File:The Lord of the Rings - The Motion Picture Trilogy - Gothmog.jpg|Gothmog in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]''
|File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Gothmog (Lieutenant of Morgul).jpg|Eärnur as Gothmog in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
}}
'''1977: [[War of the Ring (1977 board game)|''War of the Ring'' (board game)]]:'''
:Gothmog is the second most powerful Nazgûl. He begins the game at Dol Guldur.

'''1982-97: ''[[Middle-earth Role Playing]]'':'''
:Gothmog is a [[Half-trolls|half-troll]], a crossbreed of trolls and [[Variags]].<ref>{{ICE|3112}}</ref>

'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]'':'''
:Gothmog is portrayed as an Orc-general with a misshapen face. He is played by [[Lawrence Makoare]] and voiced by [[Craig Parker]].<ref>{{rotkee}}, Director's Commentary</ref> [[Peter Jackson]] wanted to show a hideously deformed orc, one that would aptly convey the "ugliness" of [[Mordor]]. The upper left side of Gothmog's body is swollen and pock-marked from a disease of some sort, as described by the design department. His pale, yellow skin may also be a consequence of this illness. Gothmog's intelligence is far above that of the common orc and he, understandably, would be the perfect link between the Witch-King and the other planners of the siege of [[Minas Tirith]] (most likely men in Sauron's service) and the mindless mass of orc infantry on the front lines. While Gothmog likely did not have the intelligence to design the attack on the White City he certainly would have been able to ensure orders were carried out. Gothmog is clearly a brutal commander, but also an over-confident one. Peter Jackson comments that Gothmog feels powerful with Mordor's massive army behind him, but in reality is a crippled orc, as seen in his failed dismount from a [[Wargs|Warg]] in the [[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (extended edition)|Extended edition]]. Gothmog does, however, seem to be a capable warrior, though somewhat inhibited by his crippled left side.

:In October 2021, news spread that [[Elijah Wood]] claimed on a podcast that one of the orc masks in the films "was designed to look like [[wikipedia:Harvey Weinstein|Harvey Weinstein]]".<ref>{{webcite|author=Ryan Parker|articleurl=http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/lord-of-the-rings-elijah-wood-orc-harvey-weinstein-1235025070/|articlename=Elijah Wood Claims ‘Lord of the Rings’ Orc Was Designed to Resemble Harvey Weinstein|dated=4 October 2021|website=[http://www.hollywoodreporter.com www.hollywoodreporter.com]|accessed=8 October 2021}}</ref> While Wood did not explicitly refer to Gothmog as portrayed in the movie, Gothmog's orc mask was widely identified as the orc character in question.<ref>{{webcite|author=Chris Robertson|articleurl=http://news.sky.com/story/harvey-weinstein-was-used-as-inspiration-for-an-orc-in-lord-of-the-rings-elijah-wood-says-12427118|articlename=Harvey Weinstein was used as inspiration for an orc in Lord Of The Rings, Elijah Wood says|dated=6 October 2021|website=[http://news.sky.com/ news.sky.com]|accessed=8 October 2021}}</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Gloria Oladipo|articleurl=http://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/oct/05/elijah-wood-lord-of-the-rings-orc-modeled-harvey-weinstein|articlename=Lord of the Rings orc was modeled after Harvey Weinstein, Elijah Wood reveals|dated=5 October 2021|website=[http://www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com]|accessed=8 October 2021}}</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Patrick Benjamin|articleurl=http://www.dazeddigital.com/film-tv/article/54408/1/elijah-wood-reveals-a-lord-of-the-rings-orc-was-based-on-harvey-weinstein|articlename=Elijah Wood reveals a Lord of the Rings orc was based on Harvey Weinstein|dated=6 October 2021|website=[http://www.dazeddigital.com www.dazeddigital.com]|accessed=8 October 2021}}</ref>

:In the midst of the chaos, Gothmog is forced into hand-to-hand combat. He sees a pocket of particularly stiff resistance, primarily from Théoden and [[Éowyn]], and decides to fight Éowyn. She is a more skilled fighter than he, however, and soon injures him on his crippled left leg, rendering him essentially unable to walk and useless to Mordor's army as a whole. After Éowyn has killed the Witch-King, in an act of revenge, Gothmog attempts to kill her with a mace he finds nearby. He is, however, killed just in time by [[Aragorn]] and [[Gimli]]. As he is about to strike, Aragorn cuts off his armored right arm, but Gothmog persists and Gimli hits him in the abdomen with his axe. Aragorn then cuts through Gothmog's armor on the right side with his sword to finally bring the Orc down.

'''2015: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Gothmog plays a major role in the game as the chief antagonist of several Epic story-lines and is also combined with the character of [[Eärnur]]. In the game's version of events, in [[Minas Morgul]] Eärnur was transformed into a [[Wraiths|wraith]] named '''Mordirith''' in service of the [[Witch-king]], who in mockery of the [[Stewards of Gondor]] made Mordirith his own Steward at [[Carn Dûm]] in [[Angmar]]. Long absent from that evil bastion, Mordirith returns to Carn Dûm shortly before [[War of the Ring]], launching attacks against the Free Peoples of [[Eriador]]. Mordirith is defeated at the end of the game's original storyline, plunging the other servants of [[Sauron]] into a civil war over his position before he returns and his identity is revealed at the end of ''Volume I''. He is defeated again, but instead of being sent back to the North he is bestowed upon the name of '''Gothmog''' and is ordered to lead the Witch-King's armies against [[Gondor]].

:The player doesn't meet him again until [[Osgiliath]], shortly before the [[Siege of Minas Tirith]]. During the [[Battle of Pelennor Fields]] Gothmog personally kills the Ranger [[Halbarad]], but when his master is undone and can no longer bring him back from the [[Void]], he suddenly feels fear again and flees the battlefield before [[Aragorn]]. Gothmog barricades himself inside Minas Morgul, refusing even Sauron's muster to the Black Gate. Though he outlives the Dark Lord's demise, his other surviving servants blame Gothmog for it and combine their forces to assault of the City of the Dead. This gives the players and a group of [[Rangers of Ithilien]] the opportunity to sneak inside and challenge Gothmog, delivering a final defeat to him.

== External links ==
*[http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/Gothmog.txt Gothmog as a Human] - article by Steuard Jensen discussing the nature of Gothmog

{{references}}
{{title}}
[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Characters of unknown race]]
[[Category:Enigmas]]
[[Category:Pronounced articles]]
[[Category:Servants of Sauron]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[de:Gothmog (Statthalter von Minas Morgul)]]
[[fr:/encyclo/personnages/gothmog_de_morgul]]
[[fi:Gothmog (Morgulin komentaja)]]

Talk:Gothmog (Lieutenant of Morgul)

2023-07-21T15:12:08Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Regarding his the Witch King */

How come only some of the orcs under Gothmog wore the spikey armor and other wore poorly made armor? {{unsigned|72.228.49.45}}

:The different types of armor from the images in the article is most likely due to the different interpretations from the artists. I know Tolkien did mention some types of Orc armor, though I don't recall which types off the top of my head. I would imagine the different ranks of Orcs and different regions in which they lived would contribute to their armor type. We probably should write an article for weapons and armor on the wiki. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:48, 4 September 2007 (EDT)

Couldn't he have being a Maiar in orc form and the name a crude joke of the Dark Lord. in the movie he was a little taller than the orc under his cammand.

Again just throwing out ideas here. But if the spirit of Sauron can survie is it not possible that the spirit of Gothmog lord of Balrogs survived, and that Sauron realising his power put him to his own uses as a general? --[[User:Pand.|Pand.]] 18:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[[Pand.]]

== Regarding the Witch King ==

In this section, wouldn't it be more appropriate to call him either Lord of the Nazgul, Black Captain, or Chief of the Nine instead of Witch King of Angmar? Angmar was long gone and Carn Dûm purged by the time of this battle, and, he was only referred to as a "witch king" because the Edain and common folk in the north didn't realize who or what they were really facing.

Just my two cents. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 15:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Gothmog (Lieutenant of Morgul)

2023-07-21T15:11:35Z

Lost Númenórean: /* Regarding his the Witch King */ new section

How come only some of the orcs under Gothmog wore the spikey armor and other wore poorly made armor? {{unsigned|72.228.49.45}}

:The different types of armor from the images in the article is most likely due to the different interpretations from the artists. I know Tolkien did mention some types of Orc armor, though I don't recall which types off the top of my head. I would imagine the different ranks of Orcs and different regions in which they lived would contribute to their armor type. We probably should write an article for weapons and armor on the wiki. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:48, 4 September 2007 (EDT)

Couldn't he have being a Maiar in orc form and the name a crude joke of the Dark Lord. in the movie he was a little taller than the orc under his cammand.

Again just throwing out ideas here. But if the spirit of Sauron can survie is it not possible that the spirit of Gothmog lord of Balrogs survived, and that Sauron realising his power put him to his own uses as a general? --[[User:Pand.|Pand.]] 18:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[[Pand.]]

== Regarding his the Witch King ==

In this section, wouldn't it be more appropriate to call him either Lord of the Nazgul, Black Captain, or Chief of the Nine instead of Witch King of Angmar? Angmar was long gone and Carn Dûm purged by the time of this battle, and, he was only referred to as a "witch king" because the Edain and common folk in the north didn't realize who or what they were really facing.

Just my two cents. [[User:Lost Númenórean|Lost Númenórean]] ([[User talk:Lost Númenórean|talk]]) 15:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)