Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Canon

2008-09-11T12:00:00Z

Matthew: /* Canon and Tolkien Gateway */ Addition of mythological content to cannon

{{cleanup}}It is remarkably difficult to speak of what is "true" in the context of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s legendarium, or what texts should be considered '''canon'''. Quite a few readers do not believe that any clear canon exists at all. Others argue that a legendarium for its very nature does not need any kind of canon.

==Reasons==
There are various reasons for the canon problem:

* Tolkien worked on Middle-earth over the course of decades, making substantial changes. Readers may remember, for example, the differences between ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'' with regard to [[Gandalf]] and the [[Elves]]. Moreover, toward the end of his life the focus of his writing shifted from pure story telling to more philosophical concerns, which led to a considerable shift in tone and content.

* Tolkien's writing is laden with details and hints, which can be contradictory, especially in the posthumously published work. Such information should not take precedence over more explicit statements elsewhere, but it can help to flesh out our understanding of Middle-earth (even if it does at times add confusion). In general, the '''revised''' versions of ''The Hobbit'' and the ''Lord of the Rings'' are considered canon, but with ''The Silmarillion'' and other posthumous texts the matter is more complex.

* To add to the confusion, in some cases, Tolkien intentionally left some gaps in his works. In [[Letter 144]] he provided both an explanation and an example of this, writing that ''"even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. [[Tom Bombadil]] is one (intentionally)."'' Giving an incomplete picture in this way can be frustrating, but it also makes the invented world feel more natural.

{{quote|I am doubtful myself about the undertaking. Part of the attraction of the [[The Lord of the Rings|L.R.]] is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed. Also many of the older legends are purely 'mythological', and nearly all are grim and tragic: a long account of the disasters that destroyed the beauty of the Ancient World, from the darkening of [[Valinor]] to the Downfall of [[Númenor]] and the flight of [[Elendil]].|''[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]]'', [[Letter 257]]}}

As only ''[[The Hobbit]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', ''[[The Adventures of Tom Bombadil]]'', and ''[[The Road Goes Ever On (book)|The Road Goes Ever On]]'' were published during Tolkien's lifetime, only those works should be considered "true" canon with respect to Tolkien's publication history. Tolkien himself considered the published works as "fixed" and tried not to introduce new concepts that would contradict or alter them, while elements he left unpublished, he continued to experiment on.

But ''The Hobbit'' was revised twice, and ''The Lord of The Rings'' once. There is no general consistency across all of these books, although the most agreement between sources may be found with the second (1950) edition of The Hobbit, the first (1954-5) edition of ''The Lord of The Rings'', and ''The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'' and ''The Road Goes Ever On''.

[[Christopher Tolkien]] compiled an approximation of what his father might have produced when ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' was published. However, he warned readers not to look for consistency between this book and those published by his father. Throughout his commentaries in ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'', Christopher has pointed out many discrepancies between his final editorial selections and alterations and what he later believed would have been his father's true intentions.

Furthermore, the chapters in the published ''Silmarillion'' about the ruin of [[Doriath]] and the fall of [[Gondolin]], especially the former, were largely written by Christopher Tolkien and [[Guy Gavriel Kay]], to fill in gaps in the available story, and therefore do not represent J.R.R. Tolkien's own ideas about how those stories should be handled.

''[[Unfinished Tales]]'' consists of essays and stories composed after ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' which were generally consistent with The Lord of the Rings. The book reveals parallel traditions regarding the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, the nature of the [[Istari]], and a few minor sub-plots. Although some people argue that the book is generally acceptable as canon, readers must bear in mind the fact that no true consistency exists between these unfinished tales and the earlier works.

The various texts published in ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' date from all periods of Tolkien's life and generally exclude the more finished sections used for the published works.

An example of the canon question is the lineage of [[Gil-galad]]. In the published ''Silmarillion'' he is said to be the son of [[Fingon]], but as disclosed in ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'' Tolkien considered many arrangements before apparently deciding that he was the son of [[Orodreth of Nargothrond|Orodreth]], who would then also be displaced as a son of [[Finarfin]] and turned into Finarfin's grandson instead. Also, most people think [[Finwë]] had three children, all sons; [[Fëanor]] by his first wife [[Míriel]], and [[Fingolfin]] and [[Finarfin]] by [[Indis]]. However, this is incorrect, since he also had two daughters, [[Findis]] and [[Irimë]], by his second wife (Findis was in fact Finwë's first child by Indis), thus Finwë had five children. If the published ''Silmarillion'' is taken as canon all later material must be discarded, but if the later writings by Tolkien are taken as canon the ''Silmarillion'' must be rewritten, a task which Christopher Tolkien has stated he will not do as he is now retired. So we are left with a ''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'' which contradicts the original author's intentions, but which is the only authoritative narrative in existence for most of the traditions. The latter third of the ''Quenta Silmarillion'' in particular was never rewritten by Tolkien as a whole after the early narrative of his youth.

A further problem is reconciling ''The Hobbit'' with ''The Lord of the Rings''. In 1947, Tolkien suggested to his publisher, [[Allen and Unwin|George Allen & Unwin]], that ''The Hobbit'' required revision to make it more consistent with the then nearly finished sequel. In 1950, Tolkien was surprised to be informed that the publisher had incorporated his 1947 suggestions into a new edition of ''The Hobbit''. When he received the proofs for this update he subsequently altered some of the as-yet unpublished material in ''The Lord of the Rings'' to more fully conform to the changes Allen & Unwin had made to ''The Hobbit''.

Among inconsistencies which survived into the second edition, [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and the [[Dwarves]] took far too long to reach [[Rivendell]] when a map from ''The Lord of the Rings'' was used to gauge the distance, which can only be explained with great difficulty if at all. There are additional problems as well, such as the exact location of the [[Trolls|Troll]] encounter. When he began writing ''The Hobbit'' Tolkien did not intend for it to be part of his Middle-earth mythology, but was simply populating an imaginary landscape with characters and locations for a children's adventure story. Nonetheless, for his own amusement, Tolkien borrowed several references to his unpublished mythology to give the story a sense of depth. Thus Gandalf and [[Thorin Oakenshield]] wield swords from [[Gondolin]], and [[Elrond]], ruler of Rivendell, is [[Half-elven]].

==Canon and Tolkien Gateway==
For the sake of consistency, in this encyclopedia ''The Hobbit'' and ''The Lord of the Rings'' are considered fully canon, but the status of ''The Silmarillion'' and other posthumous writings is more complex. In general, ''The Silmarillion'' and ''Unfinished Tales'' are treated as canon, but corrections published in ''The History of Middle-earth'' generally take precedence. Late writings by Tolkien published in ''The History of Middle-earth'' that do not contradict more established texts are also generally treated as canon.

This choice of canon means that this encyclopedia includes a number of corrections to the information in ''The Silmarillion'' as published. For example, the article on Gil-galad states that he is the son of Orodreth, the article on [[Amras]] mentions his death in the burning of the ships of the Teleri, and [[Argon]], Findis and Irimë have articles of their own. Details of the history of the [[Nauglamír]] and the fall of [[Doriath]] are treated as uncertain, and the story of the ''[[Wanderings of Húrin]]'' is accepted as accurate. Information on earlier or alternate versions of the stories is provided when possible.
===On Canon and Mythology===
In treating tolkien's work as a revealed mythology, it must be taken into account that the material presented is done so in such a manner that it represents only on possible telling of a story. A Joseph Campbell has demonstrated in ''The Hero with a Thousand Faces'' and ''The Masks of God: vols I-IV'', a myth can have more than one true and authentic telling or version, while the actual events that transpired are either completely the stuff of legends, or their objective reality has been lost in the re-telling of the myth through time among different populations.

While the readers of Tolkien often take all of the material as being inerrent and a "factual" accounting of what transpired in the various ages of Middle Earth, it must be remembered that he himself knew that he was constructing a mythology, and as such, different versions of a story could be held as true by various peoples or tellers of those myths.

Thus, Bilbo's account of ''The Hobbit'' may be coloured by his perceptions and personality, while Frodo, Sam, and the other hobbit's accounts in ''The Lord of the Rings'' will have a completely different feel and quality to them. JRRT may not have been completely conscious of this at the time of the earliest conceptions of his writings, but later in life, when he had begun to explore the more distant and remote past of Middle Earth and the various themes that run through it, he was almost certainly aware of this. As early as 1929, Joseph Campbell was studying in Europe and had made his mark upon many writers of the period.

When looked at in this light, it is quite easy to reconcile the various versions of the stories and canon of Tolkien's work as being simply the cultural variations of the peoples of Middle Earth in their re-telling of these stories

===Canon status of various writings===
While readers often differ in their opinions of which writings to treat as canon, this encyclopedia uses the following choices:

*''[[The Hobbit]]'' (third edition — canon, author's final intent)
*''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' (second edition — canon, author's final intent)
*''[[The Adventures of Tom Bombadil]]'' (preface is canon, poems are treated as Hobbit folklore)
*''[[The Road Goes Ever On (book)|The Road Goes Ever On]]'' (poems, thus irrelevant to the canon question)
*''[[Bilbo's Last Song]]'' (poems, thus irrelevant to the canon question)
*''[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]]'' (canon when not in conflict with later writings)

*''[[The Silmarillion]]'':
**''[[Ainulindalë]]'' (canon, author's final intent)
**''[[Valaquenta]]'' (canon, author's final intent)
**''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'' (mostly canon, except for editing errors and where contradicted by later writings)
**''[[Akallabêth]]'' (canon, author's final intent)
**''[[Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]]'' (canon, author's final intent)
*''[[Unfinished Tales]]'' (mostly canon, except where specifically contradicted by later writings or noted as contradictory in the text)
*''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' (some parts are canon, especially late writings — but see individual parts)

[[Category:Tolkien Gateway]]

Talk:Arda

2008-08-30T02:54:15Z

Matthew:

I just deleted the reference to the Mediterranean because: 1. Middle-earth corresponds for the larger part with North-Western Europe, and 2. 'mediterraneus' in Latin doesn't mean 'Middle-earth', but "midland, inland, remote from the sea".

- Earendilyon

:Thanks for catching that one [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]], unfortunately my Latin is lacking and I assumed (which I shouldn't have done) that the translation was correct. Thanks for the correction! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:47, 1 February 2006 (EST)

==Rewrite==

Alright, I did the rewrite. Just some discussion. Firstly, I would like to try my hand at creating a basic map of Arda in Bryce, in 3d graphics. Secondly, we should add some references. Unfortunately, I don't know where this information is to be found. By the way, if nobody likes the rewrite, we can just copy-paste the Wikipedia article again, I suppose. Anyway, I just laid down the base. It still needs expanding. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:04, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

==The Map (And what is wrong with it)==

Looking through Vol 4 of ''The History of Middle Earth'' I can see right off a few things wrong with it.

First of all, before the beginning of any of the Ages, even before Melkö fled to Utumno, the Lamps were at the North and South of the Entire World with a great Island in the Sea of Helcar, and the Blue, Grey, Red and ... a fourth range (I cannot recall the name of the other, as I just lost my place... I will come back and correct this as soon as I find it again) split the Eastern Continent into four parts, of which Beleriand was but one in the most NW of Endor.

That would make the map on this article a little inaccurate to even have the locations of the Lamps, much less the Sea of Helcar, which supposedly became Beleager after the fall of the lamps, The Shattering of the Island that the Vala had made their home upon, and the changing of Middle Earth.

Then, Utumno was far, far to the North of ME, not to the NE. Khand is to the southeast of the southern corner of the Mountains of Ash, not to the immediate east of Nurn/Nurnen.

===The Size of Beleriand===
Also, Beleriand is only about the size of Eriador, The hill of Himring and Dorthonion are still islands off the North West coasts of Forochel (called Himling, and the remains of Dorthonion I cannot recall the name of right now - but it too is mentioned in vol 4 of ''The History of Middle Earth''). If you look at the scale marking on the Map of Beleriand that comes with ''The Silmarillion'' and the Map of Middle Earth that comes with ''The Lord of the Rings'', you will see that the scale markings on the Middle Earth Map are half the size of those on the Map of Beleriand (meaning that the lands are roughly twice the area on the Middle Earth Map as the Beleriand Map).

While the map is a nice and pretty map... It should be relegated to the same genre as maps of the earth during the Dark/Middle Ages. While the maps of the Earth created from 500CE to 1600CE often had all of the correct places marked upon them... Those places were often in the wrong place or the wrong size.

===Considerations for a New Map===
In this context, this map is awesome, as it reflects a people who did not yet have the technology to create an accurate map of the world (I imagine that the Númenórëan Maps and the Elven Maps of the Teleri would have been very accurate... I have already begun work on a unified First Age Map of Middle Earth that contains Beleriand and the East, and it works many of the details of the map given in this article (I know that I have a book somewhere that has this map in it, but most of my library is still in TX and I am in CA). For Instance, if you take the given distances on the Map of Middle Earth, you can see that it covers an Area roughly consistent with Denmark to the Atlas Mountains (or possibly the southern extent of the Sahara Desert), which would make this area roughly consistent to 1000 miles below the Arctic Circle to around 1000 Miles north of the Equator.

If you use these measurements with the Map of Beleriand placed to the West of Eriador, then you will see that the Entrance to Angband is roughly around the Area of Stavanger Norway (Latitude wise), which places it around 700 Miles below the Arctic Circle... I would have placed Utumno right at the Arctic Circle extending in size right up to the Pole (remember though, at this point the world was still flat, as it was during the First and most of the 2nd Age).

Also, you need to remember that given Utumno's relation to Angband (Angband was significantly to the south and east), that this means that the true "North" direction once the world was made round points more in the direction of North-NorthWest from the Map of Middle Earth... There are very subtle things like this to take into account in positioning areas on the map...

Surprise attack on Umbar

2008-08-30T02:07:59Z

Matthew: /* Aftermath */ Ecthelion - Thorongil

{{unnamed}}
{{battle|
image=[[Image:John Howe - Corsairs of Umbar.jpg|300px]]|
name=Surprise Attack on Umbar|
conflict=[[Corsair Wars]]|
date=Unknown, but sometime between [[Third Age 2957|T.A. 2957]] and [[Third Age 2980|T.A. 2980]]|
place=The [[Haven of Umbar]]|
result=Victory for Gondorian naval forces, Destruction of much of the Corsair Navy|
side1=[[Gondorian Military Forces#Gondorian Naval Forces|Gondorian Navy]]|
side2=[[Corsairs of Umbar]]|
commanders1=[[Image:ME-Gondor.png|45px]] [[Thorongil]]|
commanders2=[[Image:ME-Harad.png|45px]] [[Captain of Umbar]]|
forces1=Unknown, less than 100 ships, several hundreds raiders and sailors|
forces2=Unknown, est. thousands of Corsair soldiers and sailors, hundreds of ships|
casual1=Unknown, light|
casual2=Unknown, many ships and an est. hundreds of sailors|
}}

The '''Surprise Attack on Umbar''' was a sea battle that took place sometime between 2957-2980 TA.

==Prelude to the Battle==

During the reign of [[Ecthelion II]], [[Steward of Gondor]] the realm [[Umbar]] was a grave seafaring threat to the [[Southern Fiefs]] of Gondor. The [[Corsairs]] attacked trade ships, fishing vessels, and [[Gondorian Military Forces#Gondorian Naval Forces|Gondorian Navy]] ships, as as the Gondorian coast.
The Steward's most trusted counselor was a man the people called [[Thorongil]]. He was very concerned about what the Corsairs could do to the coasts, and voiced his worries often to [[Ecthelion]]. Finally Ecthelion gave him permission to tackle this menace.

==The Attack==

When all was prepared Thorongil led his small naval task force into the Gulf of Umbar to the Havens, and catching the Corsairs unprepared and unaware, they burned and destroyed many of their ships. During the battle Thorongil slew the [[Captain of Umbar]] on the quays, and then withdrew his forces with little loss.

==Aftermath==

Thanks to the brilliance of Thorongil, the threat of [[Umbar]] was definitely deterred. Many of their ships were destroyed along with many of their sailors.
Thorongil would have received much praise and honor for his victory, but when they reached [[Pelargir]] he would not return to [[Minas Tirith]] for his awards.
He sent a message of farewell to [[Ecthelion]], saying: "Other tasks now call me, lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate." Though no one could guess what those tasks could be, or by whom he was summoned, they did know where went. For he took a boat and crossed the [[Anduin]] river, and there he said farewell to his companions and went on alone; and when he was last seen he was headed toward the [[Mountains of Shadow]]. This Thorongil turned out to be a young [[Aragorn II]].

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix A]].

[[Category:Conflicts of the Third Age]]

Surprise attack on Umbar

2008-08-30T02:06:21Z

Matthew: /* Prelude to the Battle */

{{unnamed}}
{{battle|
image=[[Image:John Howe - Corsairs of Umbar.jpg|300px]]|
name=Surprise Attack on Umbar|
conflict=[[Corsair Wars]]|
date=Unknown, but sometime between [[Third Age 2957|T.A. 2957]] and [[Third Age 2980|T.A. 2980]]|
place=The [[Haven of Umbar]]|
result=Victory for Gondorian naval forces, Destruction of much of the Corsair Navy|
side1=[[Gondorian Military Forces#Gondorian Naval Forces|Gondorian Navy]]|
side2=[[Corsairs of Umbar]]|
commanders1=[[Image:ME-Gondor.png|45px]] [[Thorongil]]|
commanders2=[[Image:ME-Harad.png|45px]] [[Captain of Umbar]]|
forces1=Unknown, less than 100 ships, several hundreds raiders and sailors|
forces2=Unknown, est. thousands of Corsair soldiers and sailors, hundreds of ships|
casual1=Unknown, light|
casual2=Unknown, many ships and an est. hundreds of sailors|
}}

The '''Surprise Attack on Umbar''' was a sea battle that took place sometime between 2957-2980 TA.

==Prelude to the Battle==

During the reign of [[Ecthelion II]], [[Steward of Gondor]] the realm [[Umbar]] was a grave seafaring threat to the [[Southern Fiefs]] of Gondor. The [[Corsairs]] attacked trade ships, fishing vessels, and [[Gondorian Military Forces#Gondorian Naval Forces|Gondorian Navy]] ships, as as the Gondorian coast.
The Steward's most trusted counselor was a man the people called [[Thorongil]]. He was very concerned about what the Corsairs could do to the coasts, and voiced his worries often to [[Ecthelion]]. Finally Ecthelion gave him permission to tackle this menace.

==The Attack==

When all was prepared Thorongil led his small naval task force into the Gulf of Umbar to the Havens, and catching the Corsairs unprepared and unaware, they burned and destroyed many of their ships. During the battle Thorongil slew the [[Captain of Umbar]] on the quays, and then withdrew his forces with little loss.

==Aftermath==

Thanks to the brilliance of Thorongil, the threat of [[Umbar]] was definitely deterred. Many of their ships were destroyed along with many of their sailors.
Thorongil would have received much praise and honor for his victory, but when they reached [[Pelargir]] he would not return to [[Minas Tirith]] for his awards.
He sent a message of farewell to [[Ecthelion]], saying: "Other tasks now call me, lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate." Though no one could guess what those tasks could be, or by whom he was summoned, they did know where went. For he took a boat and crossed the [[Anduin]] river, and there he said farewell to his companions and went on alone; and when he was last seen he was headed toward the [[Mountains of Shadow]]. This Ecthelion turned out to be a young [[Aragorn II]].

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix A]].

[[Category:Conflicts of the Third Age]]

Necromancer

2008-08-25T06:39:24Z

Matthew: /* Forces of the Necromancer */

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]] and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit southern [[Greenwood the Great]], choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought by the wise that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power in [[Dol Goldur]] fled before him into the East thus beginning the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why [[Gandalf]] advised Thorin and company to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]] on their way to confront the Dragon Smaug in [[Erebor]] or [[The Lonely Mountain]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions in the [[White Council]]. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths) upon the death of their bodies.

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Guldur) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and [[Dwarves]] at the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Guldur by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éothéod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Guldur and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Guldur, and a great many [[Númenórëans]] fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

The [[Orcs]] of the Misty Mountains may also have provided the Necromancer with a ready supply of troops, as the [[Orcs]] and [[Goblins]] of Middle Earth seemed to always bee at the beck and call of [[Sauron]].

There is also the question of whether any of the Easterlings that had sheltered Sauron during the Watchful peace may have had any hand in the defense of Dol Goldur. Twice he fled to the East while his power was not yet strong enough to confront the Ishtari or the Elves of Lorien, Lindon or Rivendell. So, this is also an unanswered question as to the composition of the forces gathered at Dol Goldur.

===The Assault upon Dol Guldur===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldur. As a result, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]

[[Category:Maiar]]

Forums:My Necromancer of Dol Goldur Article

2008-08-25T06:35:42Z

Matthew:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]


I am having trouble with understanding where to write what in terms of comments or questions about what others may think an article needs in terms of sources, what can be taken as a given (and common knowledge) and what will need a specific source (and if specific sources need a page #, and paragraph section).

So, how do I go about soliciting help on an article, and what is considered appropriate and what is not appropriate for any article?

For instance, in the ''Necromancer of Dol Goldur'' article, I have included some speculation and questions about exactly what the assault upon Dol Goldur was.

Was it just a small battle between the powers of the Ishtari and a few elves, or did it involve armies of undead and allied troops from the East and the Misty Mountains (Orcs)?

Would the Easterlings whom Sauron had fled to twice have contributed to its defense?

Why exactly did Sauron get the name of ''The Necromancer''?

And so on.

Some of these I pose as actual questions, and others I use as postulates for how it may have been possible for Sauron to have managed to gain the power to oppose Galadriel in Lothlorien.

I am hoping to eventually create a fan-fiction account in the manner of ancient historians such as Josephus, Polybios, Thucydides, Plutarch, Herodotus, (and so on) of the various wars and battles in the Second and Third Ages. In doing this, I would like to get all that '''is''' within the canon on the Necromancer and Dol Goldur (not to mention the other major episodes in the military history of Middle-Earth.

[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 02:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

:Well, before you create a fanfiction account, you must realise your original article - "The Necromancer of Dol Goldûr" (''sic'') has been redirected and merged with "[[Necromancer]]", which is strictly canon. If you want to make a fanfiction account of the lot, do so at you user namespace: [[User:Matthew/The Necromancer of Dol Guldur]]. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 06:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

:: It isn't the Necromancer that I am looking to do a Fanfic specifically about, but about the various wars, of which he was but a part of one or two.

::The Fanfic that I would like to try to get going, would be a fictionalized account of one of the generals, or a scribe that was attached to an army of Gondor or Númenóre. Or, maybe one of the soldiers who would later become a captain of leader of men among the armies of the west.

::If you would like to see an example of what I am thinking of as a model, see Polybios' account of the Punic Wars between Carthage and Republican Rome in the 3rd Century BCE. Polybios gives an account of the soldiery, how they were raised and trained, how they deployed at various battles, and he includes fictionalized accounts of the speeches given to the armies by their generals or the heads of state of the respective nations. These speeches are generally allegory for the values that are held in esteem by those nations, and generally, they are used in the following manner:

::1. The nation who is the "good guy" (Rome in the case of Polybios) will have some small success in their war. The Generals will then become too full of pride and begin to reject of forget the values that hold their nation together. They will give a speech about how their brilliance alone was the cause of victory. Then, they will suffer a terrible defeat at the hands of their enemy, upon which, they repent of their misguided ways (usually through some tragedy that exposes their hubris) and they then give a rousing speech to their army about the values of their nation and how holding to those values will bring them victory... Then, they will go out and proceed to do unto the enemy in a big way. Followed by a speech again by the general about how it was their national values that led them to victory and only by the preservation of those values will they remain invincible. All of the fictionalized speeches (even in the historical records, they are fictionalized, idealized speeches) are interspersed with accounts of the military action, and the brilliance or folly of the generals on both sides followed by the accounts of the actual battles.

::The Necromancer was just my first entry in the wiki due to having just been discussing him among some friends here (San Francisco) and at a convention in July, and as such, he would figure in at least one of these fictionalized historical records of the wars of Middle Earth... But, I guess that overall, working to maintain canon in the original article would be best (and finishing the sources to support the few bits of speculation that I have made)

[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 06:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Forums:My Necromancer of Dol Goldur Article

2008-08-25T02:41:36Z

Matthew: New page: <div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''Tolkien Gateway > Council > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> Category:Council <!-- S...

Necromancer

2008-08-25T02:12:34Z

Matthew: /* Forces of the Necromancer */ Addition of questions about the Easterlings who sheltered Sauron during the ''Watchful Peace'' or his earlier flight into the East.

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]] and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit southern [[Greenwood the Great]], choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought by the wise that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power in [[Dol Goldur]] fled before him into the East thus beginning the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why [[Gandalf]] advised Thorin and company to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]] on their way to confront the Dragon Smaug in [[Erebor]] or [[The Lonely Mountain]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions in the [[White Council]]. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths) upon the death of their bodies.

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Guldur) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and Dwarves at the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Guldur by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éothéod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Guldur and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Guldur, and a great many [[Númenórëans]] fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

The [[Orcs]] of the Misty Mountains may also have provided the Necromancer with a ready supply of troops, as the [[Orcs]] and [[Goblins]] of Middle Earth seemed to always bee at the beck and call of [[Sauron]].

There is also the question of whether any of the Easterlings that had sheltered Sauron during the Watchful peace may have had any hand in the defense of Dol Goldur. Twice he fled to the East while his power was not yet strong enough to confront the Ishtari or the Elves of Lorien, Lindon or Rivendell. So, this is also an unanswered question as to the composition of the forces gathered at Dol Goldur.

===The Assault upon Dol Guldur===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldur. As a result, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]

[[Category:Maiar]]

Necromancer

2008-08-25T02:08:57Z

Matthew: /* The Assault upon Dol Guldur */

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]] and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit southern [[Greenwood the Great]], choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought by the wise that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power in [[Dol Goldur]] fled before him into the East thus beginning the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why [[Gandalf]] advised Thorin and company to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]] on their way to confront the Dragon Smaug in [[Erebor]] or [[The Lonely Mountain]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions in the [[White Council]]. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths) upon the death of their bodies.

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Guldur) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and Dwarves at the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Guldur by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éothéod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Guldur and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Guldur, and a great many [[Númenórëans]] fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

The [[Orcs]] of the Misty Mountains may also have provided the Necromancer with a ready supply of troops, as the [[Orcs]] and [[Goblins]] of Middle Earth seemed to always bee at the beck and call of [[Sauron]].

===The Assault upon Dol Guldur===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldur. As a result, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]

[[Category:Maiar]]

Necromancer

2008-08-25T02:08:13Z

Matthew: /* Necromancy */

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]] and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit southern [[Greenwood the Great]], choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought by the wise that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power in [[Dol Goldur]] fled before him into the East thus beginning the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why [[Gandalf]] advised Thorin and company to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]] on their way to confront the Dragon Smaug in [[Erebor]] or [[The Lonely Mountain]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions in the [[White Council]]. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths) upon the death of their bodies.

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Guldur) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and Dwarves at the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Guldur by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éothéod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Guldur and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Guldur, and a great many [[Númenórëans]] fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

The [[Orcs]] of the Misty Mountains may also have provided the Necromancer with a ready supply of troops, as the [[Orcs]] and [[Goblins]] of Middle Earth seemed to always bee at the beck and call of [[Sauron]].

===The Assault upon Dol Guldur===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldur. And, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]

[[Category:Maiar]]

Necromancer

2008-08-24T23:18:20Z

Matthew: /* Forces of the Necromancer */

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]] and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit southern [[Greenwood the Great]], choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought by the wise that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power in [[Dol Goldur]] fled before him into the East thus beginning the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why he chose to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths)

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Guldur) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and Dwarves at the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Guldur by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éothéod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Guldur and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Guldur, and a great many [[Númenórëans]] fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

The [[Orcs]] of the Misty Mountains may also have provided the Necromancer with a ready supply of troops, as the [[Orcs]] and [[Goblins]] of Middle Earth seemed to always bee at the beck and call of [[Sauron]].

===The Assault upon Dol Guldur===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldur. And, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]

[[Category:Maiar]]

Necromancer

2008-08-24T23:15:30Z

Matthew: /* Forces of the Necromancer */

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]] and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit southern [[Greenwood the Great]], choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought by the wise that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power in [[Dol Goldur]] fled before him into the East thus beginning the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why he chose to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths)

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Guldur) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and Dwarves at the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Guldur by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éothéod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Guldur and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Guldur, and a great many [[Númenórëans]] fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

===The Assault upon Dol Guldur===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldur. And, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]

[[Category:Maiar]]

Necromancer

2008-08-24T20:54:20Z

Matthew: /* Sauron's Return */

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]] and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit southern [[Greenwood the Great]], choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought by the wise that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power in [[Dol Goldur]] fled before him into the East thus beginning the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why he chose to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths)

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Guldur) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and Dwarves at the Battle of Azanulbizar (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Guldur by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éotheod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Guldur and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Guldur, and a great many Númenórëans fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

===The Assault upon Dol Guldur===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldur. And, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.

==References==
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]

[[Category:Maiar]]

Forums:Historical Fan-Fiction for Middle Earth in the vein of Polybios, Plutrach, or Livy

2008-08-24T20:48:33Z

Matthew: New page: <div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''Tolkien Gateway > Council > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> Category:Council <!-- S...

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]


I have had an idea brewing in my mind for some time to do a set of articles that chronicle the various wars of Middle-earth more along the lines of the Polemics and Histories of ancient Greece and Rome by Authors such as Polybios, Plutarch, Livy, Dionysus of Halicarnasus, Thucydides, and so on.

These authors dealt with documenting the growth and conquest of their various nations. I know that there are similar works by Anglo, Saxon, Frankish, and Byzantine sources as well (I am only familiar with the Frankish and Byzantine authors in that regard).

What I would like to try to do is to create a piece of "Historical (Fan) Finction" for Middle Earth concerning the Wars against Sauron and his allies of the Second and Third Ages as written by either eye-witnesses to the events (As Polybios and Procopios were of the Republican Roman and Byzantine wars of their times), or as written by later historians producing propaganda/polemics for their contemporary rulers to create support for their policies and give a legitimacy for their rule (such as the rule of Eärnur II, who was a descendant of the royal line, but probably of a lesser claim to the throne than Arvedui who was of direct descent from Isildur's line and wedded to Firiel daughter of Odopher, the last of Elendil's line through Anarion, King of Gondor).

Middle-Earth's history is ripe with episodes that could have come straight from the pages of such a histroy as Livy's History of Ancient Rome, Plutarch's Parallel Lives, Polybios' History of Rome, or Procopios' History of the Byzantine Line of Basil I.

If any would like to collaborate on a similar Historical (Fan) Fiction along the lines of these real Historical Fictions (as they do contain very real data, but much in them is confabulation to flatter the sponsors or patrons of the author), I would love to try to write several of them that deal with the Wars of Númenóre and the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.

[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 20:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Forums:Tom Bombadil, Man or Maia?

2008-08-24T17:21:47Z

Matthew:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]


I have read numerous articles about Tom Bombadil and who exactly he is. But there are SO many different opinions, I still can't figure it out. I am a Tolkien fan under 20, and would really like a good strong opinion using facts to help me figure out who he really is. Below are some opinions i have heard:

1. Tom Bombadil is a "retired" Maia.

2. Tom Bombadil is just a crazy man.

3. Tom Bombadil was a fictional character from bedtime stories that Tolkien would make up for his children. Then he was later added to LoTR for no reason, just as an enigma.

Please help me out here. Thanks.

:Well, young fan. First off, our article on ol' Tom is a wreck - I'm planning to rewrite that. As for the opinions - #3 is the right one. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 03:21, 19 July 2008 (EDT)

:He's not a Maia or indeed a Vala because he says he was in Middle Earth before even Melkor. Obviously he's not a man, for a start he's immune to the ring's effects (which since Gandalf and Saruman aren't would be another reason he's not a Maia) and he's many thousands of years too old. Number 3 is correct, but that doesn't mean he can't be placed in Middle earth's cosmology. The way I see it, since we can't fit him in to any other categories and because of his unequivocal claim to being "Oldest" he is an integral part of the Music of the Ainur; a natural force of Middle earth, a [[hröa]] without a [[fëa]]. --[[User:Aule the Smith|Aule the Smith]] 13:42, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
::Can't agree more. It's exactly my opinion about Tom since years. Nice going, Aule. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:27, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Could it possibly be that Tom B. is an avatar of Illúvatar? I have seen this tossed around by a few Tolkien scholars. In many forms of myth, some avatars of greater gods are not even aware that this is what they are. Japanese Myth for instance is replete with characters who are the avatars of great spirits who have no idea that this is their origin. Joseph Campbell talks about this in relation to primitive societies where the avatars must live among mankind in order to understand their suffering before they are allowed to enter into "Heaven" to take their place among the motive forces of the universe.

:::Maybe this is what Tom B. is. I am pretty sure that he would have been unaware of Campbell (due to Campbell not yet having written most of his works and just being a student of Jung at the time. Being such a creature would give him the insights into the world and a flighty short attention span.

:::Of course, it is just another theory, and it is far more likely that Tom is just an accident in the writing of ''The Lord of the Rings'' when he still had a vision of it as a more thorough children's story than ''The Hobbit''. As such, he is the mystery of the far off towers in the mist which hold the promise of adventure for some and peril for others.

:::[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 17:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Forums:Tom Bombadil, Man or Maia?

2008-08-24T17:21:07Z

Matthew:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]


I have read numerous articles about Tom Bombadil and who exactly he is. But there are SO many different opinions, I still can't figure it out. I am a Tolkien fan under 20, and would really like a good strong opinion using facts to help me figure out who he really is. Below are some opinions i have heard:

1. Tom Bombadil is a "retired" Maia.

2. Tom Bombadil is just a crazy man.

3. Tom Bombadil was a fictional character from bedtime stories that Tolkien would make up for his children. Then he was later added to LoTR for no reason, just as an enigma.

Please help me out here. Thanks.

:Well, young fan. First off, our article on ol' Tom is a wreck - I'm planning to rewrite that. As for the opinions - #3 is the right one. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 03:21, 19 July 2008 (EDT)

:He's not a Maia or indeed a Vala because he says he was in Middle Earth before even Melkor. Obviously he's not a man, for a start he's immune to the ring's effects (which since Gandalf and Saruman aren't would be another reason he's not a Maia) and he's many thousands of years too old. Number 3 is correct, but that doesn't mean he can't be placed in Middle earth's cosmology. The way I see it, since we can't fit him in to any other categories and because of his unequivocal claim to being "Oldest" he is an integral part of the Music of the Ainur; a natural force of Middle earth, a [[hröa]] without a [[fëa]]. --[[User:Aule the Smith|Aule the Smith]] 13:42, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
::Can't agree more. It's exactly my opinion about Tom since years. Nice going, Aule. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:27, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

:::could it possibly be that Tom B. is an avatar of Illúvatar? I have seen this tossed around by a few Tolkien scholars. In many forms of myth, some avatars of greater gods are not even aware that this is what they are. Japanese Myth for instance is replete with characters who are the avatars of great spirits who have no idea that this is their origin. Joseph Campbell talks about this in relation to primitive societies where the avatars must live among mankind in order to understand their suffering before they are allowed to enter into "Heaven" to take their place among the motive forces of the universe.

:::Maybe this is what Tom B. is. I am pretty sure that he would have been unaware of Campbell (due to Campbell not yet having written most of his works and just being a student of Jung at the time. Being such a creature would give him the insights into the world and a flighty short attention span.

:::Of course, it is just another theory, and it is far more likely that Tom is just an accident in the writing of ''The Lord of the Rings'' when he still had a vision of it as a more thorough children's story than ''The Hobbit''. As such, he is the mystery of the far off towers in the mist which hold the promise of adventure for some and peril for others.

Matthew

Forums:Trouble with source formatting

2008-08-24T17:13:04Z

Matthew:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



I seem to be having trouble getting the sources for my Article (The Necromancer of Dol Goldûr) to work properly. I tried to insert a few to test out the coding, but I could not seem to get the numbers in the references to synch with the numbers in the article.

Could someone give me a little help here (I am also having trouble navigating and understanding the help system. This is the first time I have been involved with working in a wiki format.

[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 16:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

:1) Help is currently being worked at.
:2) Off the record: you might want to work on your spelling. It's Dol Guldur, Gilgalad, Wilderland, Éothéod, Balchoth, and some others. And concerning "The Assault upon Dol Goldûr", please stay in-universe (no "Tolkien told" etcetera).
:3) With our recent upgrade, we now use Cite/Cite, which may, at first, seem tricky. But in this case, just add the following at the end of the article:
<nowiki>==References==</nowiki>

<nowiki>* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix B]]</nowiki>

:If there are any more problems, let me know. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

::Ederchil summed it up pretty nicely. You can see an example of the referencing system in action at [[Glamdring]] or see a basic example at [[Help:Editing]]. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the tips... I hadn't checke dhte spelling of Dol Goldur in a while, and have just been working off of a map that I had bought at a convention a very long time ago (it has all sorts of things on it, but it is getting to be a bit worn out and falling apart).

:::With regard to point 2, are you referring to the various sources of the dead that the Necromancer would have had at his disposal?

:::Could you give me an example please of what you mean by "Tolkien Told"? Most of that is speculation, but it is based upon a sound examination of what was known about the Ishtari.

:::As for who participated in it, that is based solely upon who would have been available at the time considering the Ishtari were not supposed to go in for direct confrontations with Sauron, or the Nazgûl at all costs (This is mentioned in Both the ''Unfinished Tales'' and ''The History of Middle Earth''

::: As for point 3, will I need to create a numbered list in the references to go with the various sources for different points made in the article? Most of them are from Appendix B, but some are from ''The Hobbit'' or from the text of "The Lord of the Rings" itself. I do have some other materials from "Unfinished Tales" and "The History of Middle Earth", but since my hard-boud volumes 6 - 12 were stolen at the end of the Spring semester in school... I need to go to the library to track down the sources for hose again (they dealt with the assault on Dol Goldur, and whether the Ishtari would have been the only ones to participate in the assault or if there may have been help. I have been told that in ''The History of the Hobbit'' that there may be more information on this topic, but I have yet to get copies of the two volumes that are now out.

:::Thanks for the help...

:::[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 17:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Forums:Re-Editing the PJ movies to be faithful to the books

2008-08-24T16:56:04Z

Matthew: New page: <div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''Tolkien Gateway > Council > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> Category:Council <!-- S...

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]


I am involved with a lot of technologies that are cutting edge simulation technologies (funny, I can do some bizarre coding using egentic algorithms but cannot do HTML... Go figure)

Anyway, I have been aware of the work of a company called Image Metrics (they are not the only company able to do this either, they are just one of the first to get to market. Weta is investing '''HEAVILY''' in this technology as well) that is able to produce completely digital actors that are indistinguishable from a livig person.

Regardless of what Weta and PJ decide to do with this technology, what it means is that someone, at a future date, could use this technology to re-edit the LoTR movies to make them completely authentic and faithful to the books... And, all without having to re-hire any of the actors or do any on location shooting... As a matter of fact, the whole process would be done on a desktop computer altering the digital "film" that much of the movie was shot in.

If you would like to have a look at what the technology is like... Have a look at this >>[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/times_online_tv/?vxSiteId=d8fa78dc-d7ad-4d5a-8886-e420d4bc4200&vxChannel=Arts%20and%20Entertainment&vxClipId=1152_timesonline1132&vxBitrate=300]<< link... It is a video of "Emily" demonstrating the technology

I wish that they had not put the warning before the video that Emily doesn't exist as a "real" person.

I know that if no one else is on this by 2015, that I will begin my own work on completing a faithful and complete set of movies for the ''Silmarillion'', ''Children of Hurin'' (replacing parts of ''The Silmarillion''), ''The Hobbit'', and ''The Lord of the Rings'' (possibly with many interludes and side-projects that would deal with the materials in ''Unfinished Tales'' and ''The History of Middle Earth''.

This is the sort of thing that advancing Information and digital simulation AI is making possible.

What will be even nicer. The Movies could be done in such a way as to make it possible for the viewer to do their own casting of the movie... Say that you wanted to see George Cloony as Aragorn, or Sam Neil as Gandalf (I didn't say that these were going to be good choices, just that they were possible), then all you would need to do would be to load the appropriate character wrap and off the film goes making the adjustments it needs along the way (How about Woody Allen as the Balrog? or Snoop Dog as Morgoth???)

Actually in all seriousness... You could make choices that were more to your liking and make sure that the dialog was proper too (like Legolas being the one to identify the Balrog in Moria, not Gandalf - and making Legolas a bit more mature looking... He was a few thousand years old after all)

Sorry for the verbosity, I tend to have that trouble.

[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 16:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Forums:Trouble with source formatting

2008-08-24T16:23:47Z

Matthew: New page: <div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''Tolkien Gateway > Council > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> Category:Council <!-- S...

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]



I seem to be having trouble getting the sources for my Article (The Necromancer of Dol Goldûr) to work properly. I tried to insert a few to test out the coding, but I could not seem to get the numbers in the references to synch with the numbers in the article.

Could someone give me a little help here (I am also having trouble navigating and understanding the help system. This is the first time I have been involved with working in a wiki format.

[[User:Matthew|Matthew]] 16:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Necromancer

2008-08-24T16:19:29Z

Matthew:

{{sources}}
The '''Necromancer''' was an evil entity that took up residence at the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Greenwood the Great]] in the late [[Third Age]]. Although the [[White Council]] suspected as much from the beginning, it was only later confirmed that the Necromancer was [[Sauron]].
==History==
===Sauron's Return===
After his defeat in the year [[Second Age 3441|S.A. 3441]] by the combined forces of The Last Alliance between the Elves of [[Lindon]] under [[Gil-Gilad]]and the Kingdoms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]] led by [[Elendil]] and his son [[Isildur]], Sauron had lost his ability to form a physical body for a great while. It is thought that he fled to the far east to regain his power and strength before returning. It was not until c. [[Third Age 1000|T.A. 1000]] that Sauron could again begin to take shape and in [[Third Age 1050|1050]] his power was enough that he began again to throw a shadow across portions of [[Middle-earth]]. It is around this time that he first began to inhabit Greenwood, choosing the hill of Amon Lanc as a place to build the fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. At first, it was thought that it was one of the [[Nazgûl]] who had returned and taken up residence in southern Greenwood, but when [[Gandalf]] entered the fortress in [[Third Age 2063|2063]] the power fled before him into the East to begin the [[Watchful Peace]].

===The Watchful Peace===
The Watchful Peace was a period from 2063 until Sauron's return to [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Third Age 2460|2460]]. During this time Dol Guldur was ruled by [[Khamûl]] the Easterling in the Absence of the Necromancer. It was during this period that the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] had overthrown the Northern Kingdon of [[Arnor]] and its three successor kingdoms: [[Arthedain]], [[Rhudaur]], and [[Cardolan]]. The Shadow on [[Mirkwood]] had lessened, but the [[Nazgûl]] had used this period to prepare for Sauron's return.

===The End of the Watchful Peace===
[[Sauron]] returned from the east in [[Third Age 2460|2460]] and again took up residence in [[Dol Guldur]]. Eventually, after many hundreds of years of pressing the [[White Council]] to take action against the [[Necromancer]], [[Gandalf]] enters [[Dol Guldur]] in secret in [[Third Age 2850|2850]] and learned that the Necromancer was actually none other than [[Sauron]]. In [[Third Age 2851|2851]], the White Council were informed of this, and [[Gandalf]] urged an immediate attack upon the fortress, but [[Saruman the White]] opposed him, having already learned of the presence of the [[Ruling Ring]] near the [[Gladden Fields]].

It is not until 90 years later, in [[Third Age 2941|2941]] that Gandalf finally prevailed upon the [[White Council]] to attack Dol Guldur and drive [[Sauron]] out. At this point, [[Sauron]] returned to [[Mordor]] and finalized the reconstruction of [[Barad-dûr]], which had been prepared for him by the [[Nazgûl]] for many years prior to this.

==Necromancy==
The Necromancer was an obscure villainous entity mentioned fleetingly by [[Gandalf]] in [[The Hobbit]], as one of the dangers of the wider world and the reason why he chose to traverse [[Mirkwood]] instead of going around it by the southern route, or by the main road through [[Mirkwood]]. The Necromancer is mentioned again in the end, as eventually defeated by Gandalf's companions. The Necromancer gives a scent of backstory to the otherwise "light" story but is never elaborated. Tolkien later decided to merge him with Sauron of his mythology.

Apart from that, it is not clear whether the [[White Council]] named that entity "The Necromancer" or whether [[Sauron]] himself chose the name and what his powers in this regard were. Generally, a necromancer is a magician who has a power over dead, whether that be over their bodies or over their spirits that have been trapped so that they may not go to their final destinations (The [[Halls of Mandos]] for the Elves, Beyond the world for humans, and to where ever Dwarves return upon their deaths)

It could be argued that [[Sauron]] used both the power of control of the bodies of the dead and over the spirits of the dead in his role as the Necromancer. He no doubt taught the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] how to either create or control the [[Barrow-wights]], which were a form of [[eälar]] (spirit) in Middle-earth. It is likely that [[Sauron]] may have made use of similar spirits as well at Dol Guldur.

===Forces of the Necromancer===
In addition to the greater spirits and undead either created or controlled by the Necromancer, he may have had at his disposal a greater force of undead. This is only hinted at, but the area had ample sources of the bodies of the dead and likely their spirits as well. The largest group of the bodies and spirits of the dead available to [[Sauron]] as the Necromancer were the many dead bodies and [[Ghost Candles]] of the [[Dead Marshes]] north of the [[Dagorlad]] Battle Plain (and some miles to the south of Dol Goldûr) who were already in a form of undead over which necromancers tend to wield power. This would have been a relatively nearby supply of readily armed troops for any army that the Necromancer may have had.

Also close at hand would be the many dead bodies of the last battle between the [[Goblins]] and Dwarves at the Battle of Azanulbizar (Nanduhurion) that took place below the East Gates of [[Moria]] in 2799. This would be little more than 100 years before the assault upon Dol Goldûr by the [[White Council]].

The Many battles of the Third Age in the [[Wilderlands]] between the [[Northmen]] or [[Éotheod]] and the various invading [[Easterlings]], [[Blachoth]], and [[Wainriders]] could also have placed great numbers of dead near to Dol Goldûr and within the purview of the Necrmancer.

Going even further back in time, the [[Battle of the Gladden Fields]] was right upon the doorstep of Dol Goldûr, and a great many Númenórëans fell in that battle. Either their spirits or bodies may also have been a source of "manpower" for the Necromancer.

===The Assault upon Dol Goldûr===
Unfortunately, [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] left very little account of the assault upon Dol Guldûr. And, it is not known if this was simply a dual between great powers, or if it involved the use of armies of any kind.

As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between [[Sauron]] and the [[Ishtari]], as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Goldûr was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Goldûr.

==References==
At this time, I am still compiling the references from conflicting page numbers from the older records that I have based upon having a different copy of the primary sources than the one that I originally used to find the references. Once I am able to locate the appropriate pages and sections of the various primary sources. I will complete the References Section. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Most references come from ''The Lord of the Rings: Appendix B: The Tale of Years''

[[Category:Maiar]]

Necromancer

2008-08-24T15:45:00Z

Matthew: /* Sauron's Return */

User talk:Hyarion

2008-08-24T15:28:22Z

Matthew: /* The Necromancer.... */ new section

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* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 1|2005]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 2|2006]]     
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 3|2007]]     
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{{usertalk}}

== Title changes, language questions ==

I've read WP's article on editing, but it says nothing on changing the title. How do you change the title? I mean, I saw [[Long Horn Cotton]], I've checked the genealogies, and it's Long Hom. Some of the language headings are incorrect too - especially the [[:Category:Adûnaic_words|Adûnaic]] ones. And do we need a clearer entry on [[:Category:Rohirric_words|Rohirric]], because this is Old English and Rohirian (the word Tolkien used for it) mixed together... [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 07:13, 13 January 2008 (EST)

:Hello there Ederchil, first I wanted to thank you for your recent edits, it is always nice to have a new face around and you've been doing a great job. There should be a move button next to History and you can move the article to the correct title, I've gone ahead and fixed the Long Hom Cotton article. We usually try and bring up the move on the talk page before moving, but for obvious spelling mistakes such as that one it is okay to just move it without asking.
:One thing I always forget as well, when we want to link to Categories we have to add a colon in front, like <nowiki>[[:Category:Rohirric words|Rohirric]]</nowiki>, otherwise it doesn't display the text and just adds the article to said category.
:I agree with both of your statements on Adûnaic and Rohirric words, if you can try to cite your sources that would be great and we can eliminate any errors. Thanks for your input and let me know if I can help with anything at all. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:18, 13 January 2008 (EST)

== Ugluk fanfiction ==

Hyar: i'm sorry to accuse you like this but a friend of mine noticed what appears to be some extreme extrepolation in the [[Ugluk]] article. I had a check through the history and noticed that it all changed to that status with your rewrite. Now i know i dont know everything about the texts but what are your sources for Ugluk's company meeting Gollum, along with a preliminary meeting with grishnakh and specific information on how Ugluk's company came about? It's certainly not anywhere in the actual book Lord of the Rings. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 13:48, 17 January 2008 (EST)

:Don't be sorry! The sooner we cite everything in the articles the better. At the bottom I listed the other reference (aside from ''[[The Two Towers]]'') as "[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]], "The Departure of Boromir,", "The Uruk-hai", this is indeed where the content you brought up came from. I'd definitely recommend this book if you don't have it already. It looks like [[Wayne G. Hammond|Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull|Scull]] found this information in a "Scheme" manuscript which is an unpublished timeline of events. I know little of this manuscript so I'll do some research on it, however I have the utmost respect for Hammond and Scull. I've been holding off on citations since hopefully by the end of the month, next month at the latest, we should be running on an upgraded version of MediaWiki which will allow us to install the same citation extension which Wikipedia uses. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:05, 17 January 2008 (EST)

:: Fair enoughski, however the question does arise: 'is it canon?' I think given the confusion that has arisen, it might be worth including a sort of 'other versions of the legendarium' or 'greater works' section in which that information is included and independently assessed since i dont think a footnote will suffice for what the casual reader (and even the dedicated reader: i really was miffed by it) might at first think to be a factual error. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 04:17, 18 January 2008 (EST)

== Questions on proper form (besides proper comma usage) ==

Articles before proper names of Ages; should it be "in Second Age Numenor was really neat," or more like "in the Third Age the Hobbits were smoking?" It's given that particular dates within any certain age do not need a definite article (in F.A. 42 the elves all sailed the ocean blue) but I'm not sure which way I should format the other. Also, is there any way to flag articles that are in the process of major rewrites so that we are not doubling efforts? Lastly, if I just happened to be a great gift giver, would you and eight of your friends each want to recieve a nice piece of jewelry? [[User:Singe|Singe]] 00:38, 28 January 2008 (EST)

:"the Third Age" is the correct usage vs. simply "Third Age" and yes, you don't need to use "the" if you are stating a specific year of the age. Hm, flagging articles that are in the process of being rewritten is a good idea, until we create a template for such a notice, feel free to just mention so on the article's talk page. I think I would have to double check the possession of the jewelry didn't cause me to turn into a wraith and become controlled by a dark lord before accepting such a thing (sounds an awful lot like an engagement ring...) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:58, 28 January 2008 (EST)

==A picture my-bad==
Could you delete this: Image:20070902204908!Arda.gif? I re-uploaded it with a better name. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 15:24, 8 February 2008 (EST)

:No worries, fixed :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:10, 8 February 2008 (EST)

== Picture ==

Thank you for the thumbnail! I couldn't figure that out! -Ingwe

:No problem, wiki-code takes some getting used to, but once you get the hang of it , it all makes sense :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:18, 9 February 2008 (EST)

== Two Trees ==

Please add recent Two Trees of Valinor image to Roger Garland's image page. -Ingwe

:It looks like Ederchil beat me to it. If you ever want to add images to a category just add something like this to the bottom of the page: <nowiki>[[Category:Images by Artist name]]</nowiki> --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:46, 9 February 2008 (EST)

::Yeah, I figured that out right after I asked you. I have just finished categorizing my recent uploads and linking their summaries with related articles. -Ingwe

==Main Page==
Isn't it time for a new featured article? Or a new quote? These are on forever. Because of the new Hobbit movie, maybe [[Bilbo Baggins]]? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 09:32, 11 February 2008 (EST)

:Definitely, one option is to have the article/quote be random from a pre-chosen list of options, and the other is to vote on a new article/quote every week or month. The difficult part with voting is we need to have at least a fair amount of people voting, we might have almost enough editors for that at the moment so maybe we should start working on the process, I'll see if we can launch something with the new skin. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:13, 13 February 2008 (EST)

::Actually, when I read the article after I posted, I noticed "stay tuned for April 17th". How outdated. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 09:19, 14 February 2008 (EST)

==Pics on TolkienGateway==
Hello Hyarion, we from Ardapedia are wondering what type of license you use for pictures in TolkienGateway, do you ask for permission from each drawer him/herself? Do you use the common GNU-License like in Wikipedia? We would really like to get and add some new pictures on Ardapedia, but we strictly use licenses (like GNU, PD, and in some cases "copyrighted pics with the permission of the author"), thanks for your answer, --[[User:Sinthoras|Sinthoras]] 11:05, 13 February 2008 (EST)

:Hey there Sinthoras. One thing we definitely need to work on adding is licenses to all the images, as the licenses vary. We try to contact all of the artists for permission before uploading any of their work and so far I think everyone has stated as long as we aren't for-profit, credit them, and link back to their website, etc. then it's fine, we've yet to have someone not allow the images to be displayed. When we don't hear back or are unable to contact/find an artist we upload the images as "Fair use". I would recommend contacting the artists and asking for permission if you can as they tend to want to know who is using their images and I don't know of any that are available under the GNU FDL. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:21, 13 February 2008 (EST)

==Epessi and Epithets==
Is there any policy on including these in the article's title? It's obviously the case when dealing with disambigs, like [[Beren Erchamion]], [[Túrin Turambar]] or [[Dior Eluchil]]. However, it's unclear in the case of the kings of Rohan: compare [[Brytta Léofa]] and [[Fréaláf Hildeson]] with [[Théoden]] (not "Théoden Ednew"), and [[Éomer]] (not "Éomer Éadig"). Nor is it the case with [[Borondir]] ("Borondir Udalraph"). IMO it would look more "professional" if we would include such epithets and epessi in the title. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 13:07, 18 February 2008 (EST)

:Good question. I don't have a problem with adding them, as obviously we would include redirects from the common name. Up until this point we have tried to just use whatever name was mentioned the most in Tolkien's text as this is what the most people would be familiar with. My only concern would be it would turn a large percentage of links to Théoden, Éomer, etc. into links to redirects, and we probably don't want to bother with typing <nowiki>[[Théoden Ednew|Théoden]]</nowiki>. It also might add, if only minimally, some confusion for those who aren't familiar with "Théoden Ednew" or "Éomer Éadig". However these aren't huge negatives and if everyone else thinks it would be a good idea then I'm all for it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:46, 18 February 2008 (EST)

==Translations==
I was disussing this with someone: there's apparently no good place where the names of all the characters and places are in translations of the book. I only found [http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_vertalingen_van_Engelse_namen_in_Arda this] on Dutch Wikipedia (presumably, other language wiki's have lists too). We already have such a list at Frodo, should we include such lists at other characters as well? <br>
Also, did you know [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_Leopard-Walk-Up-to-Dragon#Inspirations this]? Definately worth some research. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 04:46, 26 February 2008 (EST)

:I think it would be worth noting the translations of the character's name in the article, and I definitely think an article which lists all of the translations would be a great idea. What should we call the article, "Translations"? The Harry Potter book is hilarious and I hadn't realized it was a rip off of The Hobbit until now, while probably not worth its own article, we should probably find some place to put that information. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:16, 28 February 2008 (EST)

::What we could also do is make separate pages for all the translations (with a cat:Translations), including information on publishing date, company, translator, and characters. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 10:04, 29 February 2008 (EST)

:::I guess it just depends on how much of a conflict there is between different translations of the same name by different translators into the same language. My idea would be to have a universal article such as ''Translations'' that has a table with them all. One thing we definitely need is, not necessarily an article for every foreign edition, but at least one article for every language for now, so something like ''Chinese editions of The Lord of the Rings'' seems logical. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:42, 3 March 2008 (EST)

==Referencing==

I would appreciate much if you could turn on the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tag. It would be nice to add where the details were found when writing/rewriting an article.
-- nikolet 00:42, 27 February 2008 (EST)

:Just me bursting in Hyar's talk: I usually ref with <nowiki><sup>[[#References|1]]</sup></nowiki>. It's a lot of typing, but gets more or less the required result. We should really get a standard referencing, btw. I think [[Denethor II#References|this]] ([[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil]]'s, I believe) should be standard. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 04:34, 27 February 2008 (EST)

::Well, we may as well discuss the templates for referencing then. I prefer to make citations up to the footnote # or para #, when I [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%ABanorian_lamp edit]. How about we have a discussion on the said topic on the irc server, this Saturday? We may as well discuss the finer points of templates such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:ME-date this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:ME-ref this] -- nikolet 20:37, 27 February 2008 (EST)

:::I can't seem to find where we had the earlier discussion on this but for now we should follow Narfil's lead and just use the reference system as used in [[Denethor II]], but as soon as we upgrade the MediaWiki engine (during my Spring break is the goal) we'll be using the same ref system that Wikipedia uses. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:46, 3 March 2008 (EST)

::::I've made an doc of what I think is a good way to reference (which was what I originally meant), which should bring some uniformity in [[Tolkien_Gateway:Standards#References|referencing]]. The current system is vague, and looking at some entries ([[Constellations]], for one) not very well followed. I can mail it to you if you're interested, or post it on my own namespace ( [[User:Ederchil/Referencing]] or something). -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 05:47, 6 March 2008 (EST)

==Polystone statues==
Is there really any reason for so many pages to exist solely for the advertisment of statues from the Peter Jackson films? It seems, well...stupid. However, I didn't feel it would be prudent to just delete them without asking. [[User:CharlesMartel|CharlesMartel]] 21:59, 21 March 2008 (EDT)CharlesMartel

:Hey there Charles. There really isn't any site that includes details of the vast number of collectibles relating to [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s works, and we wanted some place where a fan could go to find all the information in one place. The statues category has a long way to go and eventually along with our [[:Category:Calendars|calendars]] and [[:Category:Books|books]] categories we hope to list every collectible that has been produced. We also plan on having an article for all of the games that have been created which relate to Tolkien as well. If in the future the community feels the presence of the collectibles/games/etc hurt the lore articles then it is possible we could separate them more and move the articles to a different namespace or sub-wiki. Right now they are definitely a lower priority but as many fans have shown an interest in collecting we wanted to make sure the information was available. Thanks for your input! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:08, 21 March 2008 (EDT)

== Screenplays ==

I was astounded to see that you have articles for the screenplays of Peter Jackson's LOTR and was wondering how you procured them. [[User:Seagrave|Seagrave]] 07:10, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

:Yeah, me too, and since they're both orphaned AND dead-end, maybe we should link them to the movie articles. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 07:33, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

::There's quite a few websites with the screenplays, I can't seem to recall exactly where I found them. I'm not sure if they are 100% accurate but they seem pretty close. As it is fairly common to see the scripts for sale at various places I'm guessing they were officially released at some point. I haven't seen any requests to have them taken down so I believe showcasing them constitutes as fair use. I definitely think it would be better if more people knew about them as a wiki is a fairly good medium for collaborative screenplay editing. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:01, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

=="Sauron or Morgoth?"?==
A pity I never got to read that. The title sparked my curiosity, what was it about? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 04:35, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

:MediaWiki knew you were going to ask that question :) so what you can do is click on the red link, and click "View or restore 2 deleted edits" and you can view the text. ([http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Special:Undelete&target=Sauron_or_Morgoth%3F&timestamp=20080327003701 or click here]) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:19, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

::Perhaps ''you'' can, as admin ... I just got the edit page. And that link isn't working either! (Gives a "Permission Error".) ~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 17:40, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

::Same here. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 17:54, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

:::D'oh, I forgot about that. I'll see if I can get that changed so anyone can see deleted edits. The article was a paragraph attempting to persuade people into believing Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:25, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

::::The Gateway is probably not the place ''to discuss'' Tolkien, but it can be argued, that Sauron at some point was indeed more powerful. IIRC, Tolkien stated something along those lines somewhere. ~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 04:19, 28 March 2008 (EDT)

==New skin==
I like the new skin... a soft, gentle colour blue. I prefer that over the white boxes. I do think the font size, especially in the infobox, could be little bit bigger, though. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 03:35, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

==TV==
Thanks for deleting "TV". I've come across that page in both my Dead-end and my Uncategorized cleanup without really knowing what to do with it. Similar case for "[[Reviews - Movies]]", the (now) oldest page. What do we do with that? Include Rottentomatoes at the corresponding movie articles and dump the rest? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 13:07, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

:I still would like to do something related to "Television". Possibly listing the upcoming times at which a Tolkien-related film will be shown and linking to past televised videos, but the article was far below our standards. A specific article for reviews of all films is most likely not necessary as we can link to popular or lengthy fan-made reviews (which RT doesn't link to) on the respected film article. If the list becomes too long we can create a sub-page or an article for reviews of Film X, but a global article isn't going to be very useful and far too lengthy. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:16, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

== Admins on TG ==

I was checking for admins on this Wiki, and I didn't find any. Certainly a cadre of Admins is necessary for a this Wiki's development. You're doing a bang-up job, but I think you need some high-level support. As a moderate contributor, I think we should encourage people to make this kind of committment and get more deeply involved. --[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 19:06, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

:I do think we have a lower-than-most ratio of admins to users, but on wikis admins are more like janitors and there aren't many benefits aside from blocking users or protecting pages, something we do so little here that I don't think I've noticed much need for more janitors. I've also found in various communities the more moderators/admins the more drama there seems to be. That being said, I always have my eyes open and as TG grows we will definitely be adding more admins. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:20, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

== World map ==

As I could not find either an article or a talk page for the recently added interactive [http://tolkiengateway.net/map/ world map], I've decide to flag the gaffes (one major and one minor) that I found on it here.
* Tolkien never studied at the '''Exeter College''' in Exeter, Devon, UK, since it only exists since 1970[http://www.exe-coll.ac.uk/College/History.aspx]. To judge from its website, it looks more like a senior highschool than a university college. The Exeter College[http://www.exeter.ox.ac.uk/][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_College,_Oxford] Tolkien studied at is part of Oxford University, and is thus in Oxford, England.
* The map gives '''King Edward School'''[http://www.kes.bham.sch.uk/], Birmingham, UK, in its ''present'' location in Kings Heath, but when Tolkien was a pupil there (a century ago now!) it was located right in the city centre, in New Street, in premises that no longer exist[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Edward%27s_School%2C_Birmingham#History].
-- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 19:58, 1 May 2008 (EDT)

:Thanks for catching those Mithrennaith! I've fixed the Exeter location and removed the King Edward's School marker for now until I can find an exact latitude/longitude of the old building. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:46, 1 May 2008 (EDT)

::Hey, all I need to fo is get on the bus to go to where it used to be. :) --[[User:KingAragorn|KingAragorn]] 11:41, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
==Categorizing people==
I could do this via chat, but I'm here and you aren't and I'll probably forget, so...<br>
On some other wikis, I noticed they categorize people by surname. Should we do this too? It's some work to change everything, but not that difficult, apparently it's just <nowiki>[[Category:Artists|Lee, Alan]]</nowiki>. Personally I think it looks more professional that way. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 06:11, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

:I'm fine with that, I've been trying to make sure books and such are categorized "Silmarillion, The", etc. Alan Lee categorized in the L's will probably look more professional, the only problem I can see is navigating becomes slightly more confusing as the link still displays "Alan Lee" instead of "Lee, Allen", hopefully this is something we can modify in the near future however. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:30, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

== Template Transfers ==

I tried to copy over the ''Underconstruction'' template for Wiki, but I didn't quite get it right. We do need this template, badly. Would you look it over and get the wrinkles out? --[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 09:00, 17 May 2008 (EDT)

==?==

Hello all. This is my first addition to the talk page, so bear with me. Hyarion, on your user page, you said that you handled most of the technical issue, so I would like to ask about one: The Main Page has remained stagnant for some time. The Featured Article, which in my opinion should change daily, has sat on The Children of Hurin for ages. While this is certainly a noteworthy article, we need to cycle through more material. Also, the featued quote has not changed for some time.

Since there is no way to 'edit' the Main Page that I can see, I am wondering if there is a way I could update this main page (or anyone could). I would love to do it--its right up my alley--but I recognize that I am fairly new to the site, so someone more experianced might have to handle it.

Either way, I would love to see the Main Page updated. Thoughts?

[[User:Numenorian|Numenorian]] 21:22, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

== Merge ==

Hey Hyarion, I've set up a [http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/LOTR:Merge_Vote vote] on the One Wiki to Rule them All for the proposed merge; but first i think users should register their intention to vote. So could you get your contributors to go over there, sign up and register. Thanks!--[[User:KingAragorn|KingAragorn]] 07:33, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

:Hey "King Aragorn" (funny, I just wrote something on that on our Aragorn II article), I've registered, but it's an uneditable page. I can only view source, but not edit. Oh, and you typoed it "Tolien Gateway". -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 07:44, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

::Beetje stront in de ogen, Ed? '''''From the 1st June 2008 - 30th June 2008 you will be able to vote on this page.''''' Nog ff wachten dus! ~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 08:36, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

:::"First however users must register their intention to vote, this must be done so before 12:00am 1st June 2008. To qualify for registration you must be a registered user of either 'One Wiki to Rule them All' or 'Tolkien Gateway'". -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 08:56, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

::::Ah, ok, I see: I'm the one with stront in z'n ogen :-( But why merge? Why don't we just buy 51% of their shares? Or compete them out of the market? ;-) ~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 15:09, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

:Sounds good. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 23:41, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

It seems the idea of the merge annoyed some of the Wikia staff, now they're aparantely spotlighting the One Wiki and today they've heavily changed or even deleted loads of stuff that I've worked on since I arrived! GRRR --[[User:KingAragorn|KingAragorn]] 11:41, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

::I noticed that too, what a shame. It's almost comical that they ignored the wiki until there were any talks of leaving, at which point they realized they'd be losing money so they now have all of their employees pretending to be active contributors. If there are any templates they've deleted that TG doesn't have let me know and we can see about creating them here as I'm sure we could use more. What is the point of a Tolkien-specific wiki if they start merging everything into a few major articles like Wikipedia?

::Anyway, we're moving past it, they are not worth the time as we have a lot of upcoming things to focus on here. Speaking of one, what do you think about the [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Gandalf&useskin=ithilien new skin] we're working on? Oh and regarding being an admin: right now we already have a pretty high admin to user ratio but we will definitely be needing more as the wiki continues to grow quite fast and I've been watching all of your work on the One Wiki and that certainly won't be ignored. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:45, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

:::Hi, I'm likely to visit and contribute to both sites from now on, and I'd like to move my 'stuff' over here today. Regarding the skin which is in development, I think it's brilliant and it would be great to become the default site skin; however personally I prefer to use the monobook - speaking of which I've been trying to make it more like the One Wiki style in my personal settings, but is it possible to have the [http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Wiki2.png same logo] or would it have to be a completely new skin? Also would you like me to move my bot over here too? I'm sure it could be put to good use!--[[User:KingAragorn|KingAragorn]] 17:08, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

::::Monobook is definitely a good choice as well, the clutter of a fancy skin can sometimes get in the way when editing. I'll see what we can do about the logo as the Monobook one looks pretty bad (it is meant to be a wax stamp). Helpful bots are more than welcome here, I'm sure we could put it to good use as well. Thanks for your input, it's nice to have you around. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:27, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

==Categorizing people, revisited==
As for your worries, check [[:Category:Translators|this cat]]. Looks good, doesn't it? Green light on a tremendous task? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 09:07, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

:Exactly how I would have done it, great work! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:36, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

== Use of Copyrighted Artwork ==

Hi Hyarion

Some time ago you contacted me about using some of my artwork for this wiki and I initially said yes. However, and after a while, I emailed you requesting you let me know in advance before further use of my artwork, so I could decide which versions you can use and which artwork cannot be displayed outside specific websites. You never got back to me.
Now, and by pure fluke, I stumble upon this wiki and I find you have used my artwork once again, without requesting permission... and I'm far from happy. Could you, or whoever is in charge of this, please contact me ASAP so we can solve the problem? Regards, Breogán.

:Hi Breogan, it's an honor to have you here. Unfortunately it looks like I did not receive the email mentioned, I'm extremely sorry about that; please let us know which illustrations you would like taken down and we will tag them for removal immediately. Thanks for your time and your contributions to the Tolkien community. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:00, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

::Hi again, Hyarion. Here you have a list of the images I want removed:
::Manwë, Andreth & Aegnor, Celebrimbor, Elven children, Éomer Revisited (you can still use the original), Éowyn Revisited, Falathrim Elf, Fëanor the Spirit of Fire, In Search of Maedhros, Maedhros Light armour concept, Maedhros Clothing & Colours, Older Fëanor, the whole Sons of Fëanor series, I Narn Aragorn ah Arwen, and Mandos.
::I will be uploading new versions of some of this artwork, don't know when but it will be soon, so if you want I can let you know when the new versions are available and which ones can be used on this site.
::Also, you never mentioned the images would be displayed full-sized. I specifically requested you use smaller versions of my artwork and link people to my DA site for the full-size (larger version) of the image. Since you didn't received that email I sent you, could you please make sure the full-size images are removed as well?
::Finally, and since you are using my artwork, why am I not listed here? -> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Images :)
::Please, do not misunderstand my requests. I am glad Tolkien Gateway is interested in my artwork, and I'm happy to have it displayed here, I just want to prevent further misunderstandings and problems. So, I guess that if in the future you want to upload new versions of the artwork to be removed, or add future pieces, you only need to contact me and I will send you the requested artwork in the required format.
::Thanks in advance for your cooperation. It's a pity you never received that email because it would now save us a lot of time :) [[User:Breogán|Breogán]] 10:09, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

:::"Finally, and since you are using my artwork, why am I not listed here? -> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Images :)" - I'm working on it, it needs a makeover. It's not a complete list. Yet. It was based on an older version of [[:Category:Images by Artist|this category]], but several galleries were missing from that list. Not anymore. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 14:16, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

::: The images you requested have been removed. The few left were at the same resolution as your DA gallery so I've removed them as well. We'll be adding to our image regulations that any of your illustrations not uploaded by you is to be deleted immediately. If there are any images you would like displayed here feel free to upload them in your preferred resolution.

::: I'm still wondering where that email went and I did find one in the incorrect folder from 8/21/07 which requested the removal of a few illustrations, sorry about that. Although it looks like there is yet another email I'm missing as it didn't mention the removal of a lot of the other images and didn't mention the smaller resolution requirement. If you don't get a reply from me within 24 hours feel free to send a follow-up as the last thing I want to do is ignore someone. Thanks for your time and sorry for the inconvenience. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:39, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

::::Thanks a million, Hyarion :) Ok, I can upload the images with the required resolution, but what about the links? Will I have to link them back to the relevant pages or do you want me to upload them onto an specific gallery and you can take it from there? I would very much prefer if you were to link them, since I have little experience with Wikis when it comes to editing.
::::Don't worry about the email. The problem is solved now, and I will send you a follow-up email from now on if I don't hear from you :) [[User:Breogán|Breogán]] 15:59, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::Anytime :) You're welcome to just upload the images, we can handle the rest. While any filename will do, we do tend to stick with "Breogán - Title of image". We can add this later, but if you like, adding "<nowiki>{{breogán}}</nowiki>" to the image summary when you upload it will include [[:Template:Breogán]] which will automatically categorize and include your name, official website, etc. Thanks! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:08, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

::::::We probably need to tweak on the template, then. "For a full sized version of this image, see DA" or something. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 01:43, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
:::::::Thanks guys :) I will leave the template-tweaking to you. I am finishing the last illustration for the book, so as soon as it's done, I will start uploading the images. Thanks again. [[User:Breogán|Breogán]] 10:13, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

:::::::Ok, I have just found MORE of my work that has been displayed here without my permission. YOu know, guys, you can't just go around grabbing images and using them without getting in touch with their author. The concepts used are for a game project and should not be used without requesting permission. Hyarion, please, drop me a line (I have already emailed you regarding this)[[User:Breogán|Breogán]] 13:14, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
:::::::: Thanks a million for fixing the problem. [[User:Breogán|Breogán]]

==Help==
hi, i'm new here. i looked at your user page and i thought you did a good job. i, on the other hand have no idea how to do any of that stuff - guilty of never having my own webpage before :( - so can you tell me how to do that stuff??? Balrog Slayer 11:00PM 5/28/08

:Hey Balrog Slayer, welcome to TG! The layout I'm using can be rather confusing, but you should be able to edit my userpage and copy/paste it into yours, then change the information. If you need any help with that just let me know and I'd be happy to lend a hand. We look forward to seeing more of you around here :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:08, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

== Name ==

Hey I am worried about creating an actual page for myself because I am afraid it might cause users who click on Ælfwine to come to my page instead of the character's page. Could you please give me your advice? [[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 16:34, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

:The character is called [[Ælfwine]]. You are called [[User:Ælfwine]]. You should have picked [[Hyarion|a]] [[Ambartur|better]] [[Ederchil|name]]. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 16:38, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

::Hello Ælfwine, no need to worry about that as your page is located at [[User:Ælfwine]] and the character's page is located at [[Ælfwine]], searching for "Ælfwine" will display the character's page and not your user page. Don't mind Ederchil, Ælfwine is a perfectly acceptable name :) Thanks for your recent contributions! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:42, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

== Extension ==

Hi Hyarion! I was wondering what you think of the idea of a page with a map on it, which links to specific places; I made one on the One Wiki and it's found [http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Locations here]. However at the moment the TG doesn't have the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ImageMap Image Map] extension. So what do you think of having something similar here? We could also have different maps for different times in Middle-earth's history.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 06:45, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

==Help section==
I'm reading the "Help" section, and quite frankly, it's not helping much if you pretend you're a newb. May I propose specific pages like "Categorizing", "Linking", "Biographies of real persons", "Biographies of characters", "Places", "Games", "Words", "Images", et cetera in the Help namespace? Because abons creating articles ''"En is an Elvish word for 'of the'"'' just hurt my eyes, and we can't expect people to follow our lay-out if we compress it all to a couple of unorganized pages [[Help:Contents|like this]] or [[Tolkien Gateway:Standards|this]]. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 06:53, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

== Tolkien News ==

Greetings !

I was checking the "To-Do list" and this came to my attention:

"Decide on a slogan for TolkienNews.net. And maybe a new title? Tolkien Times?"

How about bringing some news into TolkienNews? :) Tolkien Times sounds good, but the last article there is from December2007. If updated more often, I think the site would be (even more) awesome, since it's one of the few (on Tolkien) who have RSS News Feed (basically it's TolkienNews, TheOneRing and Elfenomeno who are accurate and have RSS...at least that's what I've found so far).

All the best!<br>

[[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 06:45, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

:Hi Þelma! Yes, the Tolkien News development has been lacking as we have been working on integrating the news system into the wiki so anyone can post news, it will be done this summer and then we will start back up with posting all of the Tolkien news again. Thanks for your input :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:21, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

::Sounds great. :) Thank you also. [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 13:01, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

==FA Nominee template==
Just something Ambartur/Quidon came up with: A template to make people aware the article is a FA nominee. [[User:Ederchil/Templates#Featured_Article_Nominee|So I made one]]. Fine with you? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 04:11, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
:I installed the template, if a little sloppily. Hey, I haven't done this alot. But the tags are in the three FA nom articles, and they work.--[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 10:24, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

== Bolding text ==
I was editing the [[Dagnir]] article, and the 'code' used to bold the article's name was different than I have seen, is that the way it should be done? Kind of a dumb question, but I didnt see you on the chat, I probably would have forgotten.--[[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] 21:03, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

:<nowiki><b>This</b></nowiki> is old. All the apostrophes is modern wiki syntax. All that infobox puzzling is almost starting to turn me into a programmer. Almost. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 13:09, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

==Cite extension==
It doesn't seem to work. Could you pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase install [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php Cite/Cite extension]? It's certainly better than any of the methods we now use. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 13:09, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

:It is at the top of my list of extensions to install. To install it we needed to get PHP5 and upgrade the MediaWiki engine. We upgraded the server and PHP and now all that is left is to upgrade MW which will be finished shortly, then the Cite extension is easy. I've been a little behind due to work but I should be back into the swing of things shortly. :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:29, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

== One of the artists here :) ==

Hello there :)
I just discovered that a couple of the honey-bunnies here were kind enough to make a page for me and upload some of my art, and that at some point you'd taken the trouble to edit it (thank you, to all three!). So I just added a few newer pieces - I hope that's okay.
But I also managed to make a goof on the first upload, so I'm afraid it'll need deleting - I think I marked it for deletion properly... Argh.
I thought it might be a big arrogant if I added my own pics to articles, but if any of them are any use - please feel free. And if you have any articles lacking illustrations let me know. I have quite a few of the little buggers, plus I'm currently working on some Silmarillion things (including an 'Annatar').
Soni (Alcorn-hender) xx
[[User:Bohwe|Bohwe]] 04:35, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

:Hi Bohwe! It's an honor to have you here as I've really admired the illustrations you've done, even the "simplistic" sketch cards seem to come to life. No worries on the first upload, I've already removed it. I'll definitely see if we can get more of your illustrations included in the articles, as the more fans we can introduce to your work the better. The more minor the character/place the much more difficult it is finding artists who have illustrated it, so Silmarillion subjects like Annatar would be fantastic. We're in the process of listing all of our articles which we can't find illustrations for, I'll let you know as soon as that list is finished. We really appreciate all you've done for the Tolkien community and we're looking forward to working with you more in the future :) If I can help with anything at all just let me know and I would be happy to help. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:51, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

::Thanks so much! :) Annatar is almost finished, I'll see if I can upload him later on. There may be an Erestor soon as well, time permitting. Thanks again. --[[User:Bohwe|Bohwe]] 12:33, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
::Oh, ps - I don't know if I was just being blind or daft, but I couldn't find this wiki included on wikia.com. Is it listed there too? It's better than some of the others I saw there... Ahem. [[User:Bohwe|Bohwe]]
:: I've uploaded the Annatar pic and added it to the article, hope that's okay. Not sure if the placement is right, or even if the image is what you wanted, but maybe it'll do for now. :) [[User:Bohwe|Bohwe]] 02:09, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

:::1. This wiki is not associated with wikia.com.
:::2. I've improved Annatar.
:::3. As for an article that could use a good main pic, I'd say [[Glorfindel]]. I saw [http://www.bohemianweasel.com/Portfolio/PortfolioLotR37WGlorfindel.htm one of him] on your site, and I love it. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 03:04, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

== Featured Quote ==

'''Attention''' all Arda: A new '''Featured Quote''' has been born. And yes, this is a world changing event (sorta). Hopefully, you will find this first electee acceptable to our high standard, ''O Vala''...--[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 17:49, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

== Hi ==

Hi Hyarion, I hope you enjoyed your <strike>holiday</strike> vacation. There's a few things I need to ask you, so here goes.

I'm sure your aware that [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] has been nominated for adminship, I know that you've previously spoken against having more admins, but I think the wiki is now big and active enough to have at least two admins; so will you make him admin when the voting is over? If so make sure you give your own [[Tolkien Gateway:Requests for adminship|support]].

I've recently found dozens of interesting pages that you created a couple of years ago, these pages contain very interesting ideas; but one I think we should start right away is your [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings|meetings idea]], so maybe if we contact our regular users, select a good time and create a few points of discussion before the meeting, then I think we could really improve this site; so what do you think?

Finally, I've recently changed the [[Tolkien Gateway:Community Portal|Community Portal]] page, because I think it's a very useful page if it has the right content. Take a look and make sure you add anything that you think I've missed out. Also I think it's worth putting it back on the sidebar, that way people can actually make use of it!

Anyway Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:52, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

:Hi KA! It's good to be back, and it looks like we've had a lot of activity, I have a lot of catching up to do.

:I'm aware of Ederchil's nomination and I figured I'd let everyone express their opinions first before I jump in there, plus I'm still trying to find something negative about Eder :) At this point I think it's just a matter of giving everyone time to cast their vote before we make it official.

:I think we're just about to the point where we have enough regular editors to make meetings worthwhile, so I'll get started on trying to find a consensus on a day and time. We have a lot of discussions on IRC but I think having everyone on at one time we'll definitely be more efficient for certain discussions which don't work well on talk pages.

:The new Community Portal page looks great. Before we didn't really have many "community"-related articles and thus the page wasn't very useful, but I think we're at the point where a page where editors and new-users alike can find more information about TG-related things will be great. We have so many different things going on it can sometimes be difficult to know about or navigate them all and the Community Portal can help with that. I'll see if I can add some things and we'll give some time for others to make some changes and then we'll add a link to it on the menu.

:Thanks for your input and all your help, always nice to have you around! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:38, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

::One more question, something I've noticed about this wiki is that it's doesn't email users when pages they watch have been edited, and there seems to be no option to enable this in the preferences; I've found that this is a very good way of making editors return and especially good at draw the attention of users who have not edited in a while. Is it possible for you to enable this or is it because it's a different version of MediaWiki, anyway I don't know but I hope you do. Sorry to ask you to do more work - I know you've got all of those extensions to put here yet - but I think enabling this will keep the site active. Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:23, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Great idea! You can now set the options in your [[Special:Preferences|preferences]], although it will default to off. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:49, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

==Just another crazy idea - Portrayal in adaptations==
I had this crazy idea for a while now. Since many adaptations don't really have images (radio plays) or are useless witho nly a pic (video games) wouldn't it be great to include short soundfiles? Only problem is I don't know the proper copyright situation. We have [[:Category:Elvish quotes]], apparently without any tag. I wanted to check [http://www.tolkienradio.com/ TolkienRadio.com], but it says nothing on copyright and its soundfiles seem to have been shut down. Is this a dream that will stay a dream or can it be realised? -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 04:12, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

:This one ties in with our [[Forum:Video_Player|video player]] and it is definitely a good idea, not only for audio but video and even slideshows would be nice; though we don't want to clutter up the article too much. As long as we're only using a small clip from the radio broadcast or audio reading then with fair use we should be fine. Right now everything has to be done manually so I'll work on getting it setup so anyone can upload video and embed it into the page. For now if we want though we could always just upload the mp3 like we do with Ardamir's pronunciations, however that's not ideal as we really want everyone to be able to play it within the article and not need an external player. I'll add the fair use tag to those Elvish quotes. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:16, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

::My idea was to do some short, iconic phrases. Maybe a box with "ardamir-sized" soundfiles on the right. I'm still figuring out how to do it; I had a course Conversation Analysis two years ago and it involved the software needed, but I can't find it anymore. I only remember MP3myMP3, but there was a second too. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 15:24, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

==CoH Alan Lee==

I was wondering if it is ok to upload [[Alan Lee]]'s illustrations for [[The Children of Húrin]] book. I know we have [[:Image:Alan Lee - Beleg Departs Menegroth.jpg|this]] and [[:Category:Images of The Children of Húrin|this]], but do we have permission to upload the rest of them? Because I know a certain picture of [[Túrin Turambar|Túrin]] that would be just PERFECT for his article. And not just that, but many others who are absolutely amazing. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 12:04, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

:Uploading every single illustration from the book might be pushing fair use a bit, but if we can find a place for some of the illustrations in articles then I definitely think it would be worth it. I wish Alan Lee would get a website up with all his illustrations like [[John Howe]] and [[Ted Nasmith]], a lot of the illustrations I've seen online are from less than stellar scans that don't do the work justice. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:31, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

::Yes, I wished he had a site too, so that we won't go "hunting" for a decent quality pic from him in all the corners of the net. :) And speaking of corners, here's what I found : http://www.endorion.org/books/childrenofhurind.html . It's in Russian, but I think you'll find the quality of those scans far better than that of others. Also, there are different sizes for each illustration, so we can decide on which size suits us best. And if you ask me what we need most from his CoH illustrations, then that would be the picture of Túrin from the cover, which, in my opinion, has become emblematic for the hero. So it would fit really nice on our article. Other than that, I think it is your decision, since you know best how far can we go with the uploading. :) Have a great day! :) ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 06:27, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

:::Ah, I thought we were referring to the sketches at the beginning of each of the chapters in the book. The link contains the wallpapers released by HarperCollins and can be found on the [http://www.tolkien.co.uk/downloads.aspx official site], definitely feel free to upload any of those that already haven't been uploaded. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:05, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

::::Those sketches can be very useful. CoH has Amon Obel, Ibûn and Khîm, I believe some of the Outlaws as well. I don't have any other illustrated editions, but those can be ideal for the lesser-drawn things. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 13:07, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

== Pronounced Articles ==

Hi, In regards to the outcome to the pronounced articles discussion, I tried making a template which uses the audio player and could be copy and pasted into the existing pronounced template. However this wiki doesn't seem to have a lot of Paser functions, the specific one need is the <nowiki>{{filepath:Dagor Bragollach.mp3}}</nowiki> one; so I think this will make it a lot easier changing over to the audio player for all of our existing pronounced articles (we could then use '''<nowiki><audio>{{filepath:{{{1}}}</audio></nowiki>''' in the template). Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 08:42, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

== Meeting ==

You can't be there? Well, I'll try to fill in. Just one question: what exactly did you mean by Marketing TG? Placing links to good articles on Wikipedia? Or just getting us on more lists of links? -- [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

:Talk about thinking alike :) I'm just thinking getting the word out about TG as a large majority of the fans still haven't heard of us. I'll try to expand more on the meeting's talk page. Thanks for filling in! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

== Disclaimers bug ==

Some wiki code is leaking out onto the Main page, and other pages as well. It follows a 'Disclaimers' line now appearing. {{unsigned|Theoden1}}

:Yea, thanks, unfortunately we're still working out some bugs from the upgrade. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 07:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

== The Necromancer.... ==

Thanks for the message...

I have been involved in Tolkien Studies for a long time (not s long as many, as I only began when I was 13 or 14, which would only give me about 10 years of dedicated studies (where I had at least some concerted study during a year), but the interest in JRRT and his son's contributions to his works has been something of a 30 year affair.

I realize that my Article on the Necromancer of Dol Goldûr has yet to have any sources cited, but that will change soon. It is a collection of older scribblings on the subject, and the books I made them from no longer conform to the books I am using now (The LotR material was taken from a three book paperback set, and I now have a 1965 folio printing (The Big Red book - actually, I had it then, but I have always had a rather rigid rule about books... If I know them to be valuable, I will seek out a less valuable edition to use as a study guide. My parents were both rather academics and taught me this).

I do intend to put the references from the Tale of Years (Appendix B) into the article today.

More recent additions to the article come from some materials that I have found on the Encyclopedia of Arda (another excellent source that i am working to help expand).

On another note, do you kow if anyone has written any fan fiction that would be like Plutarch's parallel Lives, or Livy's History of Early Rome?

I have been thinking about doing a Fan fiction that would be detailed accounts of the various Wars of Númenórë & Gondor from the PoV of scholars attached to the armies (very much more like Polybios was to the Armies of Rome during the Punic Wars with Carthage/Hannibal)... I would love to make it a collaboration, but any of those collaborating would need to read at least some Livy, Plutarch and Polybios in order to get a feel for what a propagandist/military historian's works would be like.

This sort of work would be especially entertaining for the North Kingdom of Arnor and its breakup into Arthedain, Rhudaur and Cardolan.

If you are more interested, I can set up better forms of communication and get you copies of the appropriate texts (being several millennia old, they are all in the public domain)

Matthew Bailey
P.S. Great to have finally become part of a group of others who are as interested as I in Middle Earth.

Easterlings

2008-08-17T15:55:50Z

Matthew: /* Easterlings of the First Age */

[[Image:John Howe - Easterlings.jpg|thumb|''Easterlings'' by [[John Howe]].]]
'''Easterlings''' were [[Men]] who lived in the east of [[Middle-earth]], and were enemies of the Free Peoples.

== Easterlings of the First Age ==
During the [[First Age]], the term was applied to the sons of [[Bór]] and [[Ulfang the Black|Ulfang]], or the ''Swarthy Men'', who came into [[Beleriand]] much later than the [[Edain]], and who were for a part secretly in league with [[Morgoth]].

The Easterlings of the First Age should not be confused with those of later ages. The term in the First Age was used to refer to any peoples who came from the east of the [[Ered Luin]], and as such, the Easterlings of the First Age could well have come from [[Eriador]], rather from the further east in the [[Wilderland]] of the area of the [[Sea of Rhûn]].

=== Sons of Bór ===
[[Bór]] was a leader of Men who came into Lothlann, Beleriand, in the year 463. His sons were [[Borlach]], [[Borlad]] and [[Borthand]]. Bór was welcomed by [[Maedhros]], who gave him and his followers land north of the [[March of Maedhros]], and south of it. Bór and his sons swore allegiance to Maedhros, and remained faithful, though he was told by Morgoth to betray the banner of [[Caranthir]]. All of them were wiped out during the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]].

=== Sons of Ulfang "the Accursed" ===
[[Ulfang]] also came in Lothlann, Beleriand, in 463, shortly after Bór. He was the father of [[Ulfast]], [[Ulwarth]], and [[Uldor]]. Ulfang was welcomed by the sons of [[Fëanor]], and he and his sons swore allegiance to Caranthir. They were given lands to dwell in the north and south of the March of Maedhros. Ulfang and his sons were secretly in the employ of Morgoth, and betrayed the [[Eldar]] and Edain during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad in what is now known as the [[Treachery of Men]].

The Easterlings were betrayed by their lord Morgoth, and confined to [[Hithlum]]. After the [[War of Wrath]], those that survived fled back over the [[Ered Luin]] to [[Eriador]] and beyond.

== Easterlings of the Third Age ==

In the third age, the Easterlings were a significant threat to Gondor; they were a more regimented force than the Orcs or even the Haradrim. It is likely that Sauron drew much of his inspiration for his Orc armies from these wicked men. Sauron suffered a harsh and heavy defeat from the Last Alliance, who vanquished his numerically superior Orcs with a ranked and ordered army. The Easterlings were all this and more, so Sauron greatly valued his alliance with the men of Rhûn.

The weapons that the Easterlings used were primarily jagged spears, making them especially effective against cavalry, as well as a shorter, odd, glaive-like version used for close combat. They also were known to run their foes down in great Wains, or wagons.

=== Wainriders ===

'''Main Article:''' [[Wainriders]]

The ''Wainriders'' were a confederation of Easterling tribes who were united by their hate of Gondor, fueled by the dark lord Sauron. Following the Great Plague which weakened Gondor, they started their attacks in Third Age 1856, defeating the Gondorian army and killing king [[Narmacil II]]. They rode in great wagons and chariots (which gave them their name), and raided the lands of [[Rhovanion]], destroying or enslaving its people. Gondor gradually lost all of its possessions east of [[Anduin]] to them. The thirtieth king of Gondor, [[Calimehtar, King of Gondor|Calimehtar]] son of Narmacil, defeated the Wainriders at the [[Field of Celebrant]], buying some rest for his land. However the Wainriders struck back in 1944, allying themselves with the [[Haradrim]] of Near Harad and the Variags of Khand. They managed to kill king [[Ondoher]] and both his sons, but instead of riding on to [[Minas Anor]] and taking the city, they paused to celebrate. Meanwhile, general [[Eärnil II|Eärnil]] of Gondor's southern army had defeated the Haradrim and rode north to defend his king. He came too late to rescue Ondoher, but managed to decisively defeat the Wainriders. Eärnil was later crowned king. After this defeat the might of the Wainriders was broken, and they retreated east. They still held Rhovanion, but never troubled Gondor again. It later turned out that their attacks were staged by Sauron to allow him to reclaim [[Mordor]] while Gondor's watch was diverted.

=== Balchoth ===

'''Main Article:''' [[Balchoth]]

The ''Balchoth'' were a fierce race of Easterlings, who attacked Gondor while under orders of [[Dol Guldur]]. In 2150 they overran the plains of [[Calenardhon]] and almost destroyed the army of the Ruling Steward [[Cirion]], but were defeated by the [[Éothéod]] under [[Eorl]] the Young. Like the Wainriders they rode in chariots and wagons, and they may have been descendants of this people.

=== Variags ===

'''Main Article:''' [[Variags]]

The ''Variags'' (in the real world, this is another name for the [[Varangian]]s) were from [[Khand]], and they first appeared in the West in 1944 of the [[Third Age]], fighting alongside the Wainriders. They later appeared during the battle of the [[Pelennor Fields]]. Little was known about them, but they appeared to be a race of horse-men much like the [[Rohirrim]], although they were fiercely loyal to [[Mordor]].

[[Category:Men]]
[[Category:Easterlings]]