Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Old Forest

2008-09-01T23:14:58Z

Numenorian:

The '''Old Forest''' is a small forested area which lies east of [[the Shire]]. It is one of the few survivors of the primordial forests which covered most of [[Eriador]] before the [[Second Age]], and it once was but the northern edge of one immense forest which reached all the way to [[Fangorn Forest]].

It is bordered in the east by the [[Barrow-downs]], and in the west by ''The Hedge'', a large wall which the [[Hobbit]]s of [[Buckland]] built after they cut the forest to make room for their new homes. When the trees grew too close to the hedge, hobbits cut down the trees nearest and created a clearing by a [[Bonfire Glade|bonfire]]. Ever since then, the trees were more hostile.

Just before the [[War of the Ring]], the Hobbits [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and [[Peregrin Took]] crossed through it trying to escape from the [[Black Riders]].

The Hobbits believed the trees of the Old Forest were in some manner 'awake', and were hostile. They swayed when there was no wind, whispered at night, and misled travellers deeper into the forest. This was a Hobbit legend well-based on fact. The trees did indeed carry a malice and a hatred, but this hatred not connected to the evil stemming from the East and Mordor--the hobbits mostly referred to the forest as queer and dangerous rather than evil.

The forest had been angered by the years tree-felling and destruction that they had witnessed, and the trees would lash out at travellers, whether they meant good or ill. Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Sam were waylaid by a falling branch as they passed through, and the Hobbits had the sense that they were being watched by the forest itself. The paths in the forest, which seemed at first to be true, would angle downward into the valley of the [[Withywindle]].

The Withywindle, which lay roughly in the center of the Old Forest, was the root of the queerness, malice, and the general animosity that the trees projected. [[Old Man Willow]] lived within the valley and seemed to have some measure of control over the forest, inspiring much of the anger that permeated the limbs of the trees.

At the south-eastern edge of the forest, on the bank of the river Withywindle, stood the house of [[Tom Bombadil]], who rescued the Hobbits when they were trapped by Old Man Willow. Tom Bombadil seemed to represent the good side of the forest, and had some power over Old Man Willow. The two contrasting wills, of Bombadil and the Willow, brought about the aura of mystery and queerness that the Old Forest seemed to inspire.

It is probable that some trees of the Old Forest were [[Huorns]].

[[Category:Forests]]
[[Category:Eriador]]
[[de:Alter Wald]]
[[fi:Vanha Metsä]]

User talk:Ederchil

2008-09-01T22:51:03Z

Numenorian: /* Archive */

{{usertalk}}
==Archive==
===[[User talk:Ederchil/2008|2008]] (well, up until August 21 anyway)===
In which:

*[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] welcomes me, invites me for the chat, discusses the [[Calendar]], and asks my opinion on the Ithilien skin.
*[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] comments on Uyldert's ''schotschrift''.
* [[User:Sigismond|Sigismond]] plays [[wikipedia:Brühl|Brühl]] tourguide, and discusses a proper translation of ''etwas vereinheitlichen''.
* [[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] has cousins over, and discusses [[Steven White Jr.|a wanted page]].
* [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]], [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] and yours sincerely have a ''gezelli'' semi-Dutch/semi-English conversation about redirects.
* [[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] doesn't like my self-nomination of [[Glamdring]] for FA, and rightly so.
* As a result of my very first [[:template:w|Welcome!]], [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] ends up on my Talk Page rather than Hyarion's.
* [[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] doesn't like me dogpiling, and rightly so.
* [[Soni Alcorn-Hender|Bohwe]] likes me liking her art.
* [[User:Sage|Sage]] discusses the faults in the [[Tale of Years]] and In-Universe/Out-of-Universe.
* [[User:KingAragorn|KingAragorn]] and [[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] urge me to accept my Admin nomination.
* [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] and [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] discuss the proper usage of "Prince".
* [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] throws in a bucket of [[Unquendor|'''''The''''' Netherlands]] related messages.
* [[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] and [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] discuss games as part of [[Adaptations]] with me. 



Ederchil--I apologize for any imperfections in the Halflings article. I of course knew the correct spelling of Numenorian, but was unsure how to put accents over letters. Thanks for helping out the article.

[[User:Numenorian|Numenorian]] 22:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

== August 24th Meeting ==

Unfortunately it looks like I'll be out of town this weekend and will be unable to attend our second meeting :( If you could maybe step up and oversee things that would be great. I'm going to try to add some thoughts to the [[Tolkien_Gateway_talk:Meetings/24_August_2008|meeting's talk page]], if you could forward those on that would be awesome. I'll leave my computer on for logging and will post the transcript when I get back on Monday. Just remember, "What Would Hyarion Do" :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

:Wow. Cross-post. Will do. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 20:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

== Garland ==

What was your reason for replacing the images of Roger Garland's that I uploaded? -Ingwe

:Oh, I corrected the titles. It was sort of a "test" category to see how much work deleting and reuploading actually was. Is there a problem? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

::Well,no I suppose.I just thought the descriptions I wrote were rather useful.-Ingwe

:::Oh, must have missed them. I'll restore the old ones (they're still in the deletion log) and copy-paste your discriptions to the new files, okay? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

::::Thank you. I have always been impressed with your editing contributions.-Ingwe

:::::I can't belive I missed those descriptions. They're good. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

::::::Thank you. I love excellent art.-Ingwe

Halfling

2008-08-29T06:08:43Z

Numenorian:

The term "Halfling" was a name given to [[Hobbits]] by the [[Dunedain]] upon their arrival in Middle Earth. Though they have since diminished in stature since the line of kings failed, Numenorians at their greatest stood seven feet tall, making the average Hobbit about half their height. The name was still used by Gondorians in the Third Age, most noticably by [[Denethor]] and his sons [[Faramir]] and [[Boromir]].

Halfling

2008-08-29T06:07:32Z

Numenorian: A brief description of the term "Halfling"

== Halfling ==

The term "Halfling" was a name given to [[Hobbits]] by the [[Dunedain]] upon their arrival in Middle Earth. Though they have since diminished in stature since the line of kings failed, Numenorians at their greatest stood seven feet tall, making the average Hobbit about half their height. The name was still used by Gondorians in the Third Age, most noticably by [[Denethor]] and his sons [[Faramir]] and [[Boromir]].

User talk:Hyarion

2008-05-20T01:22:59Z

Numenorian: /* Template Transfers */

User talk:Hyarion

2008-05-20T01:22:06Z

Numenorian:

User:Numenorian

2008-05-20T01:14:27Z

Numenorian:

I am a devoted Tolkien fan eager to contribute to site with my knowledge and writing. I consider my area of expertise to be in the matters of Hobbits, the Shire, Buckland, and Bree-land: That area. My knowledge is lacking in the area of dwarf lore.

In addition to that previous shortcoming, it should be known that I am very technologically inadept. I'm certainly not an insider on how to work the talk pages, chat rooms, or any of the like. Please keep that in mind.

My current aspiration for the site is to update the Main Page more frequently. The Childen of Hurin article has been featured for time out of mind (to use Tolkien's words), as has the featured quote. I am happy to help with those things and update the main page--I would indeed love it. Email me regarding absolutely anything whatsoever, especially regarding this last issue.

mylesbuchanan@comcast.net

I am very happy to be a part of this site.

The Road goes ever on and on

Down from the door where it begun''

Now far ahead the Road has gone''

And I must follow, if i can

Pursuing it with weary feet

Until it joins some larger way

Where many paths and errands meet

And whither then? I cannot say''

2007-12-06T21:01:34Z

Numenorian:

The Galadhrim were the inhabitants of Lothlorien, the wood ruled by Galdriel and her husband Celeborn.

The Galadhrim were sindar elves, meaning that though they had seen Valinor, they did not posses the same unearthly power of their Noldor brethren. In elf kingdom in Mirkwood, Sindar were childlike, tauning, and playful. But their kindred, the Galadhrim, were more wise and serene.

The Galadhrim were exceptional archers, having honed this skill over many centuries. Perhaps most notable was Haldir, who caught the fellowship (including Legolas) entirely unawares, bow drawn and ready to shoot.

The Galadhrim defended their home against orcs, who attacekd around the end of the Third Age, just before Sauron was destroyed. The Galadhrim weathered all of the attacks. For a more complete history of these battles, see Lothlorien.

Dunlendings

2007-12-06T05:29:12Z

Numenorian:

Dunlendings were the ferocious, stunted and vicious men that lived in Dunland, close to Rohan. Also called the wild men of Dunland, they have long been enemies of the Rohirrim, although this hate is relatively baseless--it was the Numenoreans who had ruled them harshly in the past.

The Dunlendings were employed by the wizard Saruman to attack an raid the cites and settlements of Rohan. Since Grima Wormtongue had corrupted the mind of King Theoden, the Rohirrim were absent for the most part, and the farm boys and old men who picked up rusty swords proved to be little contest to the ferocious Dunlendings.

Wild Men were also present at the Battle of the Hornburg (Battle of Helm's Deep), as well as an odd breed of Half-Orcs, derived from Orcs and the Men of Dunland. They fought viciously against their old enemy, but when Gandalf stormed down the hill with a thousand Rohirrim at his back and his staff shining piercing light into the eyes of the Dunlendings, they dropped their weapons and surrendured. This proved to be a wise decision, as the Orcs who fled were killed by a massive forest of Hourns that blocked the entrance to the valley.

After Saruman's downfall, the Dunlendings retreated back into their homeland and did not trouble the people of Rohan. When the wizard Saruman attemtped to take over the Shire, there were a number of Dunlendings with him. However, they were slain or driven away by Hobbits, and when Saruman died at the hands of his own servent, Sauron, the basis of all evil, had fallen, and King Elessar took the throne of Gondor, the Dunlendings agreed never to trouble the free peoples of Middle Earth again, and their old and evil power was finally broken.

Dunlendings

2007-12-06T05:28:29Z

Numenorian:

Drúedain

2007-12-06T02:29:17Z

Numenorian: /* Characteristics */

{{race
|image=[[Image:Ted Nasmith - The Aid of the Wild-men.jpg|300px]]
|name=Drúedain
|dominions=[[Drúadan Forest]]
|languages=
|height=Short
|length=
|skincolor=
|haircolor=Dark
|feathers=
|distinctions=Good stoneworkers, mysterious powers, glowing red eyes
|lifespan=Shorter than most [[Men]]
|members=[[Ghân-buri-Ghân]]
|}}
The '''Drúedain''' were the race of [[Men]] that lived in the [[Drúadan Forest]] at the end of the [[Third Age]]. Often referred to as [[Woses]], they were one the least numerous and most mysterious races in [[Middle-earth]].

==History==
The Drúedain lived among the Second House of Men, the [[Haladin]], in the [[First Age]] in the forest of [[Brethil]].

Later, a number of the Drúedain were present in [[Númenor]], but they had left or died out before the [[Downfall of Númenor|Downfall]], as had the Púkel-men of [[Dunharrow]]. At the end of the Third Age they still lived in the Drúadan Forest of the [[White Mountains]], and at the long cape of [[Andrast]] west of [[Gondor]]. The region north of Andrast was still known as [[Drúwaith Iaur]], or "Old Drûg land".

Though the Drúedain largely held themselves apart from the troubles and calamities of Middle-earth, they were clearly a good-hearted people: their most significant contribution to the [[Free Peoples]] was showing the [[Rohirrim]] paths through their forest. Without their aid, the Rohirrim would have arrived at the [[Pelennor Fields]] much later, suffering losses from an [[Orc]] army that was waiting for them. The Woses then used poison-darts and arrows to hold off an army of Orcs searching for the Rohirrim.

Beyond that, though, their contribution to the history of Middle-earth is little. Even after the [[War of the Ring]], when [[Aragorn II|King Elesssar]] granted the Drúadan Forest to be theirs forever, they never showed their faces again, nor was any alliance or trading system struck up between them and Gondor.

There is no record of their acts in the [[Fourth Age]], but it is clear that they never mingled with the Free Peoples, content to live their mysterious life in the Drúadan Forest, until they faded away into the mists of history and legend.

==Characteristics==
In appearance, the Woses were short, stumpy-bodied men, possibly related to the Pukel-men of ancient [[Rohan]]. They had disproportionate bodies and small, sunken eyes that glowed red when they were angry or suspicious. [[Elves]] described them as 'unlovely', and it is clear that they were, though not evil, as their appearance led many to beleive.

== Names ==
The term Drúedain is Sindarin in origin, the singular being either Drûg or Drúadan. However there are many terms used for the same peoples in the various languages of [[Arda]]. The most common are listed below:

*'''Drughu:''' the Drúedain's own name for themselves. Drughu is ultimately the source of the Sindarin 'Drúedain' and many of the other names they are known by.
*'''Drúath:''' An earlier Sindarin term for the Drúedain, modified as early as the [[First Age]] when it became known that they were enemies of the orcs. Later used to refer to a large number of the Drúedain as opposed to 'Drúin' which was a simple pluralisation (As 'Woses' to the singular 'Wose') and Drúedain, used to refer to the race as a whole.
*'''Drúin:''' Plural of 'Drûg' or 'Drúadan'.
*'''Drúadan:''' Singular term in the same manner of 'Dúnadan' is to '[[Dúnedain]]'. It also has possessive qualities as in the case of [[Drúadan Forest]]
*'''Drûg-folk:''' Rarely used collective term.
*'''[[Róg]]/[[Rógin]]:''' [[Rohirric]] terminology, singular/plural respectively (as in 'Drúg'/'Drúedain'
*'''[[Rú]]/[[Rúatani]]:''' Quenya terms for the Drughu, derived from their Sindarin counterparts. Singular/plural respectively.
*'''Wose/Woses:''' A term borrowed from Old English by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] as a translation of the Rohhirric 'Róg'. This is perhaps the most common term used by readers of the text.

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Woses|Images of Drúedain]]

[[Category:Drúedain]]

Drúedain

2007-12-06T02:28:44Z

Numenorian: /* Characteristics */

{{race
|image=[[Image:Ted Nasmith - The Aid of the Wild-men.jpg|300px]]
|name=Drúedain
|dominions=[[Drúadan Forest]]
|languages=
|height=Short
|length=
|skincolor=
|haircolor=Dark
|feathers=
|distinctions=Good stoneworkers, mysterious powers, glowing red eyes
|lifespan=Shorter than most [[Men]]
|members=[[Ghân-buri-Ghân]]
|}}
The '''Drúedain''' were the race of [[Men]] that lived in the [[Drúadan Forest]] at the end of the [[Third Age]]. Often referred to as [[Woses]], they were one the least numerous and most mysterious races in [[Middle-earth]].

==History==
The Drúedain lived among the Second House of Men, the [[Haladin]], in the [[First Age]] in the forest of [[Brethil]].

Later, a number of the Drúedain were present in [[Númenor]], but they had left or died out before the [[Downfall of Númenor|Downfall]], as had the Púkel-men of [[Dunharrow]]. At the end of the Third Age they still lived in the Drúadan Forest of the [[White Mountains]], and at the long cape of [[Andrast]] west of [[Gondor]]. The region north of Andrast was still known as [[Drúwaith Iaur]], or "Old Drûg land".

Though the Drúedain largely held themselves apart from the troubles and calamities of Middle-earth, they were clearly a good-hearted people: their most significant contribution to the [[Free Peoples]] was showing the [[Rohirrim]] paths through their forest. Without their aid, the Rohirrim would have arrived at the [[Pelennor Fields]] much later, suffering losses from an [[Orc]] army that was waiting for them. The Woses then used poison-darts and arrows to hold off an army of Orcs searching for the Rohirrim.

Beyond that, though, their contribution to the history of Middle-earth is little. Even after the [[War of the Ring]], when [[Aragorn II|King Elesssar]] granted the Drúadan Forest to be theirs forever, they never showed their faces again, nor was any alliance or trading system struck up between them and Gondor.

There is no record of their acts in the [[Fourth Age]], but it is clear that they never mingled with the Free Peoples, content to live their mysterious life in the Drúadan Forest, until they faded away into the mists of history and legend.

==Characteristics==
In appearance, the Woses were short, stumpy-bodied men, possibly related to the Pukel-men of ancient [[Rohan]]. They had disproportionate bodies and small, sunken eyes that glowed red when they were angry or suspicious. [[Elves]] described them as 'unlovely', and it is clear that they were, though not evil as their appearance led many to beleive.

== Names ==
The term Drúedain is Sindarin in origin, the singular being either Drûg or Drúadan. However there are many terms used for the same peoples in the various languages of [[Arda]]. The most common are listed below:

*'''Drughu:''' the Drúedain's own name for themselves. Drughu is ultimately the source of the Sindarin 'Drúedain' and many of the other names they are known by.
*'''Drúath:''' An earlier Sindarin term for the Drúedain, modified as early as the [[First Age]] when it became known that they were enemies of the orcs. Later used to refer to a large number of the Drúedain as opposed to 'Drúin' which was a simple pluralisation (As 'Woses' to the singular 'Wose') and Drúedain, used to refer to the race as a whole.
*'''Drúin:''' Plural of 'Drûg' or 'Drúadan'.
*'''Drúadan:''' Singular term in the same manner of 'Dúnadan' is to '[[Dúnedain]]'. It also has possessive qualities as in the case of [[Drúadan Forest]]
*'''Drûg-folk:''' Rarely used collective term.
*'''[[Róg]]/[[Rógin]]:''' [[Rohirric]] terminology, singular/plural respectively (as in 'Drúg'/'Drúedain'
*'''[[Rú]]/[[Rúatani]]:''' Quenya terms for the Drughu, derived from their Sindarin counterparts. Singular/plural respectively.
*'''Wose/Woses:''' A term borrowed from Old English by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] as a translation of the Rohhirric 'Róg'. This is perhaps the most common term used by readers of the text.

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Woses|Images of Drúedain]]

[[Category:Drúedain]]

User talk:Hyarion

2007-12-06T02:25:23Z

Numenorian: Denethor, that nice guy

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|-
!align="center"|[[Image:archive.png|50px|Archive]] Archives
----
|-
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* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 1|2005]]
* [[User_talk:Hyarion/Archive 2|2006]]
|}

== Spam ==

Hey Hyarion,
I have found a problem in copying and pasting.

I was copying a paragraph on the Dwarves of the Iron Hills article and it brought up a questionaire instead of my paste. So I thought I would let you know of that and see if you could fix it.

Your wiking friend --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 01:09, 21 February 2007 (EST)

:Hm, just to make sure I'm following; instead of pasting the text you had copied it pasted some questionnaire? Unfortunately (or fortunately) there is no way for any kind of spam to get into TG that way, my only guess is you accidently had something else copied during or after you attempted to copy the text. Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but I can assure you it's not related to TG. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:30, 21 February 2007 (EST)

I thunk your right. My brother gets those off the web and sends them to his friends so he may be the culprate. Thanks --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 13:02, 21 February 2007 (EST)

== Simpson's Spoof ==

I saw that the other night and I knew that it was going to be put up, awesome! One little problem, not really important, it was not UPS they were waging war with, it was a fictional group called the American Shipping Service, or A.S.S.(not to be confused with the human ass). I'm sure you knew that, I'm just splitting hairs. --[[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] 15:13, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

:Ya I liked it too :) I was going to put American Shipping Service but figured UPS was more simple and to the point. Do you think having an article on The Simpsons here with all the references to Tolkien/Lord of the Rings would be going too far? If I can find more references I think it may be worth it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:20, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

:Dude, that was an awesome clip! --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 19:54, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

:I think any show like that, Family Guy, Simpsons, Futurama, etc. should have an article. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but there was a sitcom on Fox called That '70s Show, and the sole reason I watched week after week was for the Star Wars references. Its not going to far at all, any reference Tolkien's masterpiece deserves a place on Tolkien Gateway, in my opinion.Info wise, I can help with that, but I'll leave the uploading of video to more experienced editors.--[[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] 23:38, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

::I've gone ahead and created an article for [[The Simpsons]], embedding the YouTube videos is easy, there's also a tag for Google Video: <nowiki><googlevideo>8119893978710705002</googlevideo></nowiki>. Uploading our own video isn't quite complete yet, but you can see it in action [[Forum:Video_Player|here]]. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:13, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

==Recent Vandalism==

I believe you missed the vandalism on the article [[Dragons]]. I can't easily revert edits, and I'm not sure if that's a privelige with administrators where you can just press a button and it is reverted or what. Anyway, how do these vandals work, deleting all beyond a certain point? They aren't all different people, are they? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 17:05, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

:I hadn't missed it, just had yet to get to it :) I've been busy in the chat giving away all the prizes and chatting with all the guest speakers, where you should be! Admins have a revert button, yes, but it's pretty simple for a regular user to revert as well, just click the history tab, click the link directly before the vandalism happened, and then click edit, save. The only reason these bots are getting through the filter is because they aren't adding external links so it's hard to catch them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:09, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

== Cluttered Edain pages ==

Bit of a newbie suggestion concerning a merger but i've checked the Wiki 'how to' article and it doesnt cover it. There's an awful lot of pages in the Edain category which deal with much the same thing, pages like [[Three Houses of the Edain]]; [[House of Beor]]; [[First House of the Edain]]; [[People of Hador]] and many others, both to do with specific houses, characters after whom houses are named, and various specific terms (as in the case of some of the above). I would suggest some serious merging of all of these articles to form a more complete and coherent resource of imformation. Is that something i can do myself and simply havnt found out how or does it take more 'powers' to mark something up for merging? Dr Death

:You hit the nail on the head with adding the merge notices, although it might be easier if you simply add <nowiki>{{merge|Title of article}}</nowiki> this grabs what is located at Template:Merge and includes it automatically while inserting the variable. I think now we just need to figure out which title is the most common and place the article there. Keep up the great work! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:59, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

>> I beleive that the most obvious terms of use (and thus the name page titles) should be the 'House of...Beor/Haleth/Hador', though there is a strong case for the House of Haleth to be called the Haladin. The [[Three Houses of the Edain]] page should simply be a portion of the [[Edain]] page and it's that which i will endeavour to do when i have the time.

== Change to Main Page ==

Hello Hyarion!
Just wondered about adding a link to the Category index from the main page. As a new user I've found catergory list in the special pages great, but there doesn't seem to be a link on the main page. Findegil

:I think that's a good idea and if you like that page you might also like [[Index of categories]]. It has to be updated manually so it's missing a lot but hopefully we'll be able to create a nice tree-like structure for even easier navigation. I'll try and find a spot for it down by the A-Z list or something. Oh and you can sign your comments by clicking the signature button second from the right just above this textbox. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:11, 22 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks --[[User:Findegil|Findegil]] 13:45, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

==Chat isn't working for me==

Well, I'm back, as you've probably noticed. I was hoping to communicate with you on Chat, but for the past three days I haven't been able to access it through the java links provided. My browser keeps on saying "page not found", etc. I'm not sure if it's my problem or that of the Chat itself. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:38, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

:By the way, was the issue of redirects ever cleared up? Several editors are really leaping at the chance to redirect a lot of pages. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:41, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

::Just cleaning up, Narfil. I apologise if i seem to be taking a liberty but i'm using my best judgement in every redirect i make. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 12:46, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

::Welcome back Narfil! The Java clients will be down for a while, I'll try and get them working this weekend, but your best bet is to get a real IRC client like [http://www.silverex.org/download/ XChat] and connect to irc.tolkiengateway.net. I don't think we've come to a conclusion regarding redirects, but for now we should probably lay off converting anything into redirects as right now I think those who oppose yours and my views don't fully see the whole dictionary aspect and how much redirection would hurt that goal. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:37, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

:::I'm not sure if you saw what I posted at the forum, but in short I said that I believed that it should only be converted into a redirect if it contains no more information that "this was another name for", etc. Of course, it might be an interesting idea if for such things (minor names) we could have references on that page to where that particular name was used. Might be good if we could decide on a standard version of LotR/Sil/HoME, so we could add page numbers. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 14:28, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

::::Ya I saw what you posted and I entirely agree. Everything about Gandalf should all be in the Gandalf article, however we can expand on his titles, when they were used, how they were derived, (by Tolkien as well as in-universe), etc. in Mithrandir, Olorin, etc. References is an issue I hope to tackle this summer, I'd like everything to be based on paragraph seeing as this wouldn't change. And I'll create a website which will allow people to easily lookup and convert the paragraphs into their respected page numbers and visa versa. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:57, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

::: Well to add a face to 'those who...' i think it's worth pointing out that even dictionaries have 'see: X' under some entries, redirection just cuts out the middleman. While i whole heartedly agree that full exploration should be given to every name and its entymology (for gods sake dont get me wrong on that) i still beleive that it should be done under a central article to what it applies so as to fascilitate a greater resource of information regarding the subject. If you really want to get pedantic wikis are online *encyclopedias* rather than dictionaries and so should provide the greatest and most comprehensive amount of information without having to piddle about with technicalities. I say this as much from the standpoint of a user as an editor. By all means have sections within a main article and redirect to those sections but there are too many technicalities (a recent new page for '*The* War of Wrath' rather than just 'War of Wrath' prooves my point adequately as to how easily people can get mixed up). [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 08:54, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

:::: And I can see the benefit to that which is why I'm not 100% decided on the issue either. However let us take [[Aragorn]] for example, where would the history behind the name be located at, Aragorn I or Aragorn II? Same goes for [[Boromir]], [[Minas Tirith]], and many more articles. Instead of having to replicate the information on the name on each article, Aragorn is a nice example of how the definition could be at the disambiguation article which links to articles with that name.
::::When we get more editors we will be able to vote on matters like this, it is just hard now with so few as we don't want to be swayed in the wrong direction by a one/two votes, which is why I guess we'll just have to focus on other matters until we all agree on something. Thanks for all your input and help by the way!
::::Looking back, I think we both have the same idea, but the issue is which article is the "central article". Wikipedia, (and I think yourself?) would vote for Aragorn since it is the most popular and obvious. I tend to sway towards staying neutral and treating even the minor characters with equality, as one might say that just because Tolkien's stories focused more one one character, doesn't make them more important. This is obviously going to force the majority of users to make an extra click, but I'm just a perfectionist like that :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:35, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

::::: In the case of disambiguation pages i am in utter and complete agreement with you. Considering that Tolkien Gateway is more specialist than wikipedia we should treat all subjects with identical names with complete equality (so long as we make it clear which is which) and if we include a translation of the name there for both cases then so much the better, since that page does have to exist. In those cases it may be worth giving a 'quick translation' though in the character box if someone does go specific (so you dont have to go to [[Aragorn]] if you just want to know out of interest what [[Aragorn II]]'s name translates as).
::::: The situations i am opposed to though are those when a name or term for any subject (which does tend to be characters but others suffer as well) which specifically refers to that one subject and has no context outside it (Mithrandir only ever refers to Gandalf in the writings of Tolkien) is given a whole page all to itself just because strictly speaking it could (rather than does) refer to something else (such as the case of Mithrandir- there may be another referred to as 'Grey Pilgrim' out there but Tolkien never mentioned them). In those cases i beleive that entymology should be given to every such term but in a section the article of the sole subject it refers to rather than as an independant page.
::::: In the case of titles or tags which could refer to multiple things (say [[The Nine]], [[King under the Mountain]] etc. I beleive that they should be disambiguation pages with a little information on the term itself (much like occurs in the case of two characters called the same thing ([[Aragorn]] using the common example).)
::::: I beleive our notions are how to do things are closer than you think. The matter just seems to have been overlooked (that isnt meant as an insult, just a comment). However i'm going to make it my business to really sort it out so as to provide the clearest possible way to find information on this site. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 08:12, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::A quick translation wouldn't be a bad idea in the infobox, though I do think we'll run into an issue when there is a translation multiple languages, such as a Mannish word has a translation in Black Speech, Quenya, Sindarin, etc. On all of the articles we are definitely trying to add Etymology sections however, which should also prove fairly quick in providing the meaning and history behind a name (both in-Arda and out-of-Arda).

::::::I'm glad we both agree on the disambig articles, and I can definitely see the benefit for an article such as Mithrandir to be a redirect. But here is the conflict: Articles such as those found in [[:Category:Quenya_words]]. If we agree that these articles of Quenya words are worth having, then we can deduce that the difference between an article such as [[Astar]] and [[Mithrandir]] is that Mithrandir is attributed to someone/something. To me that is like giving less importance to a "more important" article. I guess I'm trying to just look at it from the perspective of a language expert using the wiki as a dictionary reference. Heh, sorry, I can be rather stubborn at times :) Thanks for bringing this up and hopefully we can set a standard for it as a lot of the wiki is not as standardized as I would like. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 09:34, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::: Well i mentioned briefly on the forum the difference between words in their pure form and in the form found in names. In names which usually consist of forms of at least two words of a different language. For example [[Gondor]] in its purest form would be Gondhdôr but is mutated to a far simpler form. I make no claim to be a linguistic expert but considering pretty much all names in middle earth whether they apply to a person or place are rendered into some form of elvish rather than 'The Queen's English' to provide two entries for each: one for the word and another for what it refers to, seems to be all too much of a muchness (and would only be balanced by providing redirects to the subject matter for the word's translation in english). Far better to present the component words in their purest forms on their own page and provide the examples of use there while providing a 'quick translation' on the page of what the hybrid words refer to (naturally linking to its componant parts). To me this sounds only like good sense, but i may be wrong. What do you think? [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 10:50, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::::I've gone ahead and thrown together a crude example at [[Mithrandir]]. A lot more could still be added to this article, and it just seems like we would be cramming a lot of information into Gandalf if we had to have similar sections for every single name Gandalf had. Anyway, I think both of us have our own, valid, opinions on the matter and we might as well just wait for a few more editors to voice their opinion until we can get a good majority before placing a final vote. Thanks for your input! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:49, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::::: Yes, fair enoughski. Your article on Mithrandir is certainly a preferable format to what was there whem i redirected it to Gandalf but i cant help but feel it could have been summed up in a single short paragraph. Just to cobble together an example-

'''Mithrandir''' (pronounced "Meethra'ndeerr") [[Sindarin]] for 'Grey-Pilgrim/Wanderer' (Olorin in [[Quenya]]: see above/below) used widely among the [[Elves]][[#Notes|1]]
, [[Gondorians]][[#Notes|2]] and [[Dúnedain]][[#Notes|3]]

== Notes ==
:1."Mithrandir, Mithrandir sang the Elves, O Pilgrim Grey! For so they loved to call him."
– [[The Fellowship of the Ring]], [[The Mirror of Galadriel]]
:2. "May you bring good councel to Denethor in his need, and to us all, Mithrandir!' [[Ingold]] cried."
- [[The Return of the King]], [[Minas Tirith (chapter)|Minas Tirith]]
:3. "Dark indeed is the hour,' said the old man, 'and at such times you are wont to come Mithrandir."
- [[The Return of the King]], [[Minas Tirith (chapter)|Minas Tirith]]

::::::::: So as you can see while the coding is pretty fiendish it can be done. But as you say, the deciding vote will be cast when there are more voters to make it. Until then we'll just have to tread carefully around each others edits :). [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 13:21, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::::::I would agree my example was rather stretched out and yours flows much better. This brings up yet another issue, we need a good template for our Elvish word articles, pronunciation mp3 link in the corner, image of the word in [[Tengwar]], standard headers/sections/etc. I think this discussion could go on forever so I better stop as we both have made some good points, I think in a few more months we should be able to make a final decision as TG grows. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:19, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

== The Hobbit Screenplay ==

I'm just stopping by to ask about [[the Hobbit screenplay]], I'm contributing to it. First, I would want to ask you, is it still active? Second, I want to ask you, can you read my additions and make suggestions on the thing I just wrote. Third, when the time comes, give the script to Peter Jackson or whatever responsible director and he/she and his/her colleague(s) will to whatever they want to it. =)

The book is really cool in my opinion, and I don't want some children's movie like Eragon or something like the 1980's adaption released in honor of this great book. =)

Hope it isn't that much to ask! =)

--[[User:Iluvatar|Iluvatar]] 21:53, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

:I wouldn't say it is extremely active, but it just takes one person to get it started again and more people will join in, I'll start working on it as well though I don't have much experience with screenplays. Not many people know about it so we'll have to spread the word a bit. So far your additions look great, very vivid. I definitely think it would be a good idea to hand the script over to a studio/director, even if just for inspiration. Keep up the great work! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:03, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

== Year pages ==
A question for you, Mr. H-- I have noticed that there are alot of red links for pages for important years, like III 3019, for instance. Is there an organized plan to create these pages? And what structure or format should be used? --[[User:Theoden1|Theoden1]] 16:15, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

:Hey there, right now the best place for year pages is to look at [[Timeline]]. I went through and made articles for most of the years that were mentioned in the [[Appendices]] but haven't got around to verifying all the other information, as the Timeline is not 100% accurate. I would eventually like to get a source for all the years so we can make sure not to make any mistakes. I do want to work on a standard layout for all the years, definitely with some templates and a way to navigate between the years but I haven't settled on anything. If you want to start on the articles though feel free to, I think we settled on a ''Fourth Age 1000'' naming scheme. Just try to verify that the information is correct if you can, and make sure the Timeline links to it. Thanks! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:25, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

== Additional Book Source ==

Just curious....how difficult would it be to add another (non-commercial) site to the Book Sources page?--[[User:Fleela|fleela]] 13:11, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

:Hm, not sure I know what you mean by the Book Sources page. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:21, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

::[[Special:Booksources]]--[[User:Fleela|fleela]] 13:28, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

:::Ah, sorry, I forgot about that. Ya, as long as the book can be accessed by just inserting the ISBN into the URL. Another thing I'd like to do is add more variables to the infobox so we can add other stores there if they are cheaper than Amazon. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:39, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

::::I'd love it if you could add [http://www.librarything.com LibraryThing] as a source. The link looks like "http://www.librarything.com/isbn/0618134700" You can also take a look at their huge list of book source links at http://www.librarything.com/bookservices.php --[[User:Fleela|fleela]] 13:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

:::::Added. :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:38, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

::::::Great, thanks! --[[User:Fleela|fleela]] 14:54, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

== Multiple account mess ==

Hi. I'm also [[User:Rog]] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Uthanc Wikipedia's Uthanc]. I was planning to use the latter here as well, so I created [[User:Uthanc]] and was going to make all my Rog links redirect to Uthanc, but then [[User:Rog]] is still online even when I'm logged in as Uthanc. What should I do? [[User:Uthanc|Uthanc]] 21:10, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

:Hey there Uthanc! I watch a lot of your Tolkien edits over on Wikipedia, nice to have you around. Hm, not sure I follow regarding Rog being online when you're logged in as Uthanc. Do you mean on the main page? Maybe it's just cached. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:05, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

== General comments ==

#The Mediawiki software could use updating. Compare Wikipedia's "Editing..." pages to ours.
#Ideally, many articles should eventually be rewritten from scratch in order to avoid being Wikipedia forks/clones (daunting!) in the same way that all Tolkien guidebooks/sites are (were) written differently. I don't want to "pirate" Wikipedia for articles here, so the most we can do is to borrow references.
#I believe some naming conventions are unwieldy. For example, [[Faramir]] leads to a disambiguation page between [[Faramir (son of Denethor II)]], [[Faramir son of Ondoher]] and [[Faramir Took I]] (the First?!). In fairness, that's what Wookieepedia does - type Luke and you won't go to that Skywalker immediately. And that makes this wiki different from Wikipedia... [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]] instead of [[The Lord of the Rings film trilogy]]? Well, redirects can make the redlink go to the other link. Also, parentheses or no parentheses in "son of"?
#Apparently here everything is canon... we just need to point out when Tolkien wrote it, and whether it has been superseded. Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Middle-earth canon|was rewritten]] and no longer declares such-and-such to be canon. How about a "definitely non-canon" category and template for derivative stuff like the movies and its merchandise? [[User:Uthanc|Uthanc]] 21:42, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
##Edit: we do have [[Template:Noncanon]] and [[Template:Fanon]]
#It's nice to see in-universe style here, without complaints or like-minded tags. [[User:Uthanc|Uthanc]] 21:45, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

:Some responses to a few of your comments I know the answer to: the Wikipedia articles were copy-pasted in years ago as placeholders. We encourage rewrites; they are still in progress. Much of what you find here (I believe) is actually based off of Wookieepedia. In general we do have paretheses as a rule. Again, we only have about four or five regular, dedicated editors. It takes a long time with that few to rewrite and standardize 5000+ articles. I hope that helps. Hyarion should be able to give you a fuller response. I think he's in the process of upgrading Mediawiki right now. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 21:55, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

# The software was lagging behind as further upgrades require PHP5, but this summer we plan on upgrading the server along with MediaWiki, which means we'll finally be able to install the extensions we've had our eyes on. (TengTex for one)
# We've been slowly rewriting the articles from scratch and this is definitely something on the top of our to-do list. Back when all the main articles had all been created we stopped using anything from Wikipedia.
# I'm at a loss as to Faramir Took '''I''' as well...whoever created that article obviously wasn't paying attention *whistles* I think in the beginning we tended to use no-parentheses as I had the idea that we could use the title in the text and we wouldn't have to use the alternative linking method (<nowiki>[[title|text]]</nowiki>) however I don't think anyone would actually say "Faramir son of Ondoher" in an article, so the benefit isn't really there. I'm neutral on the standard and maybe this is something we can have a vote on in the near future now that we have almost enough people to vote.
# Canon is definitely a big issue because it isn't black and white, I think the best approach is leave the choice up to the viewer. I'd be open to seeing some kind of scale, like a 5 meaning it is definitely canon, 3/4 if it's iffy, 0 if a canon subject replaced it, etc.
# I agree, I like the idea that we are essentially writing the Red Book and are looking back on the past.
:::Thanks for your comments, always nice to have fresh eyes around. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:29, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

==Anonymous Vandalism==

Hyarion, because this vandalism is getting out of hand, I would suggest that for the time being all anonymous users must do a math problem to edit. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 08:14, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

== Canon or not? ==

I have found two more Dwarves to put in the wiki but I don't know if they're canon. Could someone who knows the HoME tell me if they are before I make them pages? Their names are Bodruith and Fangluin.
Also Tom Bombadil was called Forn by the Dwarves but it cannot be made into an page because it's unde the Tom bombadil page. Can this be made into its own page too? Thanks,--[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 03:05, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

:Bodruith and Fangluin come from the [[Book of Lost Tales II]]. Both are uncanonical, but we should have a pages for them. Bodruith was the Lord of Belegost, and Fangluin was an elderly dwarf who counseled against returning [[Tinwelint]] ([[Thingol]])'s loan. Yes, we can make pages for [[Forn]] as well. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:23, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

Alright thanks for clarifying that Narfil I will get right to it.--[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 15:58, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

== [[:Category: Cosmology]] ==

I've added a few articles to the as yet uncreated [[:Category: Cosmology]]. I'm not sure if a mere mortal like myself can create a category or if like deletion it's a mod only gig. If it is a mod only gig then could you please create said category since there are a lot of 'time and space' subjects that need a home. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 16:01, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

:You're welcome to create categories. They can always be removed (unlike deletions which are permanent). Great idea for a category, by the way. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:03, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

== Categories ==

Over my absence the Categories have became very confusing and complicated. Why was it changed? I thought the way it was going was fine.--[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 16:05, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

:Hmm. . . I was the primary categorizer. . . what do you think has changed, and why did it make it complicated? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:26, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

::Oh I don't know just a bunch more than I am used to. It just is a little confusing, but I'll get used to it no biggy. --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 18:04, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

:::Based on your recent edits, I am guessing you refer to the locations categories. Basically, the locations are now categorized by type and location. For instance, [[Brithombar]] would be placed [[:Category:Elven Cities|Elven Cities]], [[:Category:Cities in Beleriand|Cities in Beleriand]], and [[:Category:Falas|Falas]]. If you have any other questions, I guess you can ask me. If you have any problems with the system feel free to say so. I did it without bothering to take a vote or anything like that. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 20:17, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

It's alright. Your categories help organize things better. No problem mate. --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 20:48, 14 July 2007 (EDT)

== Vandalism! ==

We need to do something drastic to stop these vandals! It's getting out of hand! --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 20:46, 14 July 2007 (EDT)

:Twenty-two today, by my count. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 21:01, 14 July 2007 (EDT)

Call me naive but looking at the changes they keep implementing, they dont actually 'vandalise' the pages as such (Putting gibberish up) but rather they seem to keep compressing the information, kicking it down to an Encyclopedia of Arda type minimalism. One criticism i have heard of this type of site is that people do tend to waffle on subtley casting their own 'spin' on the subject matter. While i personally dont hold this view and think that there's every chance this is plain vandalism it might be worth reviewing articles to see if they could be trimmed into shape and pose the question if any of them show noticable bias (such as a case i corrected where it mentioned Glaurung was 'far more cunning' (inprecise quote) than Morgoth's other servants which isnt sourced anywhere.) [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 05:00, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

:These are bots, which mean they go through articles and remove everything after a certain point (usually something like the first semicolon). They aren't human and have nothing to do with the article length (notice how forums are affected). Actually, I believe that quote about Glaurung could be sourced, though I didn't put it up. I believe it does say somewhere that he was far more cunning. . . but I'd have to find that. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 07:30, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

:I think one of the problems with sourcing (which is a whole other topic) is that we don't really have a steady working reference template. I believe the update Hyarion's going to get during the summer has that. I'm looking forward to it. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 08:07, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

:Nevermind, I was wrong. I just found a reference template, though perhaps it isn't the best possible. We ought to use it more. I wonder if I'm answering for Hyarion too much. . . --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 14:27, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

== Need Some Opinions ==

I'm wanting to create a page about the War between Arnor and Angmar but I need a good name. Any suggestions would be great. --[[User:Dwarf Lord|Dwarf Lord]] 13:26, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

:Arnor-Angmar Wars would be my first thought. I'll try and think some more on that subject. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:45, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

Well there's a number of descriptive terms i've heard used for the period. These include "The Fall of Arnor"; "The Ruin of Arnor"; "The Fall of the North-Kingdom". Those however do seem to be quite 'evocative' which may not be the desired effect for an article. Something simpler while still avoiding simply "Arnor vrs Angmar" format might be "The War with Angmar" since Arnor wasnt the only combatant in those struggles and Angmar only lasted for the length of the war. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 13:53, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

== TolkienGateway/Ardapedia ==

Hello Hyarion, thanks for your welcome and help. I am a fan of TolkienGateway too and always looking for good background-information to improve our Ardapedia here :) You said you'd like to cooperate with us and I suppose that's a great idea. I'm thinking about a direct connection using Interwiki-Links, like they do it on Wikipedia. It is only an idea so far, but I think it would not only expand the amount of information in our projects, but also would add to the credits for both TolkienGateway and Ardapedia. What do you think about that so far, and do you think is that worth discussing it? best regards [[User:Sinthoras|Sinthoras]]

:Hello Sinthoras, yes that is an idea I've had in mind as well. We're also good friends with the [http://kontu.info/wiki/Etusivu Finnish wiki] who I bet would be interested in joining as well. I want to make some changes to the size of our links on the left, but once I do that I'll configure the database to link to you guys whenever the tag is added to an article. We might need some help finding the correct translation for some of the names however, articles like Gandalf are easy, but for instance you don't have an article named "Elves" and I don't think any current TG members know much German :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:29, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

::I've gone ahead and set it all up and you can see the interwiki links functioning at [[Gandalf]]. I'll try to add as many links as I can, to keep it standardized I think it will be best to insert <nowiki>[[de:Article Name]]</nowiki> below the Category links, leaving a space between them, that's how Wikipedia does it at least. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:56, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

:::[[Elves]] is easy to do ;-) Though not German myself, I can help out here now and then, as I can read German fairly well. ~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 10:34, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

wow :] you already took the next steps, great! For us it isn't very hard to find the correct english articles, cause we often deal with the original names in our articles too and I'm sure we can help you out if you need the right german names ;). It will take us a short while to fix the Interwiki-Links on the Ardapedia-system. Looking forward --[[User:Sinthoras|Sinthoras]] 11:20, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

== Hi ! ==
Hello Hyarion. Dis is truely amazing. Gre8 work. Nicely done. I Love Tolkien Gateway ! Cheers ! {{unsigned|Vroom}}

:We're glad to hear you find it useful, as comments like that make it all worth it. :) If you see any articles you'd like to improve feel free to edit them, and if you have any comments/suggestions feel free to let me know --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:20, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

== What a Collection !==
Hats off to you dude ! Everything is So Organized in that Collection; as well as on Tolkien Gateway ! --[[User:Vroom|Vroom]]

:Thanks, I should take some new pictures as the collection has changed quite a bit. I can't take credit for all the organization on TG though as we've had a lot of help. Thanks for your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:43, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

== Reply to Deletions ==

I'm just getting the hang of this editing stuff, sorry if my articles were off the mark. But I'll keep trying until I get it right...were my Radagast and Druedain edits acceptable??

== Denethor, that nice guy ==

I edited the article relating to Denethor. Let me know if that meets your criteria.

Denethor

2007-12-06T02:23:54Z

Numenorian:

''(For other characters see [[Denethor|Denethor (disambiguation)]])''
{{gondorian
| image=[[Image:Daniel Govar - Denethor.jpg]]
| name= Denethor (II)
| othernames=
| position=[[Ruling Steward]]
| birth= [[Third Age 2930|T.A. 2930]]
| rule= [[Third Age 2984|T.A. 2984]]-[[Third Age 3019|T.A. 3019]]
| death= March 15, [[Third Age 3019|T.A. 3019]], aged 89 years
| gender= Male
| parentage= [[Ecthelion II]]
| spouse= [[Finduilas of Dol Amroth]]
| children= [[Boromir son of Denethor II|Boromir]], [[Faramir son of Denethor II|Faramir]]
| ref= ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix A]]
|}}

'''Denethor II''' ([[Third Age]] 2930 – March 15, 3019, aged 89 years) is the twenty-sixth and last [[Ruling Steward]] of [[Gondor]]. He succeeded his father [[Ecthelion II]] at his death in Third Age 2984.

In 2976 he married [[Finduilas of Dol Amroth]], daughter of Prince [[Adrahil]] of [[Dol Amroth]]. She gave birth to two sons: [[Boromir son of Denethor II|Boromir]] and [[Faramir son of Denethor II|Faramir]].

Denethor is described as noble and powerful in the books, even to the equivelent of Gandalf. However, it is quickly apparent that he is not so.

He doted upon his eldest son, Boromir, while Faramir, his second son, could never please his father nor be seen as Boromir's equal.

Although Denethor ruled Minas Tirith and Gondor reasonably well, he did not hold the same charisma and power of the Kings, the power that had made Gondor great. Under his watch, Gondor began to fade, until by the time of the seige of Minas Tirith, the city was almost literally at the mercy of Gondor.

Denethor's health deteriorated more rapidly when he looked into the Palantir, foolishly beleiving that he had the strength to resist Sauron's wil and use the anceint artifact to his advantage. He did not. Sauron spoke to him through the Palantir, showing him vast armies at his command in Mordor, and whispering words of malice and despair to the ailing steward.

When Boromir was slain by Uruk arrows protecting Merry and Pippin, the effect combined with that of the Palantir reduced the man to a pathetic state. He became paranoid and power hungry, resisting the idea that the hier of Elendil had returned, which would rob him of much of his stewardly power. When Gandalf came to Minas Tirith on the eve of war, it was clear that Denethor's feeble hold on sanity was slipping away, and the kingdom was suffering for it.

When Osgiliath was taken by Mordor, Denethor ordered Faramir in a suicidal attempt to retake the city. It was here that he showed his greatest grief-enduced cruelty, telling his son that he wished his and Boromir's places had been exchanged, and that he had died while Boromir survived.

Nevertheless, Faramir obeyed his lord's command and rode to retake Osgiliath. Although the attempt was more succesful then was expected, Faramir was hit by a dart flying from one the Nazgul. Wounded, sick, and barely alive, he was brought back to the White City.

At the sight of his son, Denethor lost grip on himself, shutting himself away in the citadel and abandoning his city that he had been so eager to rule.

Denethor committed suicide immediatly thereafter, abanding all hope. He threw a torch onto the pyre prepared for him and Faramir. He took the white rod of his office and broke it on his knee, casting it into the flames, symbolizing the end of his stewardship and the end of the rule of the Stewards. He laid himself down on the table and so perished, clasping the ''palantír'' in his hands. The Stewardship passed to Faramir, who remained in the [[Houses of Healing]] for a time, although the command of the city fell to the Prince of Dol Amroth during the remainder of the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]].

In the film adaptation, when Faramir is brought into the throne room, seemingly dead, Pippin attempts to stop Denethor away from cremating his son, who he is sure is still alive. After Denethor knocks Pippin away, he falls onto the fire, and, in flames, runs out of the throne room and off the highest ledge of Minas Tirith, killing himself. {{Pronounce|Denethor.mp3|Ardamir}}

== Portrayal in Adaptations ==
[[Image:Denethor from Rankin-Bass' The Return of the King.jpg|thumb|left|Denethor as portrayed in [[Rankin/Bass' The Return of the King]]]]
[[Image:Denethor, Steward of Gondor.jpg|thumb|[[John Noble]] as Denethor in [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]]]
In the [[Rankin/Bass]] animated version of ''[[Rankin/Bass' The Return of the King|The Return of the King]]'', [[William Conrad]] is the voice of Denethor.

In [[Peter Jackson]]'s [[Lord of the Rings|movie trilogy]], Denethor was played by [[John Noble]]. In [[Peter Jackson's The Return of the King]], Denethor appears completely irrational; he sends his remaining son on a suicidal mission to enemy-captured [[Osgiliath]] and refuses to light the [[warning beacons of Gondor]] to call for the aid of [[Rohan]]. In the book, the danger of his madness is that it seems to follow a certain logic; Sauron ''does'' have vastly superior forces, all of which he has surely shown to the Steward in the ''palantír''. His actions, however, do not immediately proclaim his insanity; the Osgiliath mission is less obviously suicidal, as the city has not yet been overrun, and the warning beacons have indeed been lit, although Denethor expects little help.

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Denethor|Images of Denethor]]
{{sequence
|prev=[[Ecthelion II]]
|next=[[Faramir son of Denethor II|Faramir]] (titular only)
|list=26th [[Ruling Steward|Ruling Steward of Gondor]] <code>III</code> 2984 – 3019
}}
{{rulingstewards}}
[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Gondorians]]

2007-12-05T01:03:53Z

Numenorian:

The Druedain were the odd, mysterious race of men that lived in the Druadan forest. More commonly known as the Woses, they are without a doubt one the smallest races in Middle Earth--Druadan forest is small, not big enough to support more than a minor settlement.
In appearance, the Woses were short, stumpy bodied men, possibly related to the Pukel-men of anceint Rohan. They had disproprtianate bodies and small, sunken eyes that glowed red when they were angry or suspicious. Elves described them as 'unlovely', and their general reception in Middle Earth is similar to that position. Many men of Rohan and Gondor thought that the forest was haunted.
Though the Woses largely held themselves apart from the troubles and calamities of Middle Earth, they are clearly a good-hearted people: their most significant contribution to the Free Peoples was showing the Rohirrim Paths through their forest. Without their aid, the Rohirrim would have arrived at the Pelennor Feilds much later, suffering losses from an orc army that was waiting for them. The Woses them used poison-darts and arrows to hold off an army of orcs searching for the Rohirrim.
Beyond that, though, their contribution to the history of Middle Earth is little. Even after the War of the Ring, when King Elesssar granted that the Druadan forest be their's forever, they never showed their faces again, nor was any alliance or trading system struck up between them and Gondor. All in all, the story of the Woses is a melancholic one--spited and insulted by the Elves, feared by men, and unknown to dwarves, they lived a life of isolation and solitude.
There is no record of their acts in the Fourth Age, but it is clear that they never mingled with the free peoples, content to live their mysterious life in the Druadan Forest, until they faded away into the dark culverts of history and legend.