Warden of the Keys

2009-07-06T03:28:10Z

Oitur:

'''Warden of the Keys''' was a high office of [[Minas Tirith]] in [[Gondor]]. At the time of the [[War of the Ring]], the position was filled by [[Húrin the Tall]], who gained the epithet "of the Keys". What keys they were, and what other tasks and responsibilities belonged to this office remains unknown. It is possible that the "keys" were the keys tho the gates of Minas Tirith.

[[Category: Titles]][[Category:Gondor]]

Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

2009-07-06T03:11:47Z

Oitur: /* Shadow over Eregion */

[[J.R.R. Tolkien]] paid a great deal of attention and detail in his [[Secondary world]] to preserve a realistic consistency.

However his work has been admired, studied and analyzed by "[[Tolkienist]]s" over the years in various aspects and levels and unavoidably, some more or less obvious inconsistencies seem to have slipped the author's attention. Most are revealed after more than one reading of the book and possibly thorough study.

Fans of Tolkien usually accept that in any work there are usually plot holes. In a larger, far more detailed and realistic book we expect fewer (if any) plot holes, when in reality there is a far greater chance because of its complexity.

Still, at least some of the logical mistakes can be attributed to the characters themselves who said a contradicting phrase, since none of them is supposed to have the "omniscience" of the author.

==Character mistakes==
===The Eldest===
Possibly the most noticeable inconsistency in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' is that both [[Tom Bombadil]] and [[Treebeard]] are referred to as the [[eldest]] being in [[Middle-earth]]. Tom says that about himself,<ref>"Eldest, that's what I am.... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn." {{HM|FR}}, "[[In the House of Tom Bombadil]]"</ref> and [[Elrond]] mentions that the Elves knew Tom as "oldest and fatherless".<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Council of Elrond]]"</ref> However, [[Gandalf]] tells [[Théoden]] that Treebeard is "the oldest of all living things",<ref>{{HM|TT}}, "[[The Road to Isengard]]"</ref>, and Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest".<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[Many Partings]]"</ref>

;Explanation: Maybe Tom is not "alive" as Treebeard is (though he seems to be). On this subject, Gandalf, [[Saruman]], and [[Sauron]] have existed far longer than Treebeard, as they are [[Maia]]r, but they haven't been alive (in a physical body) as long.

===Sam's spying===
[[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] tells [[Frodo]] that as a result of [[Sam Gamgee|Sam]]'s eavesdropping, he and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] "know most of what Gandalf has told you about the [[One Ring|Ring]]".<ref name=ACU>{{HM|FR}}, "[[A Conspiracy Unmasked]]"</ref> But most of what Gandalf told Frodo was in one long conversation, at the end of which Gandalf caught Sam,<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Shadow of the Past]]"</ref> and Merry says that after Sam was caught, he "seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up".<ref name=ACU/>

;Explanation: Maybe Merry means that Sam provided the information he learned before he was caught, though that's not what he says.

===[[Mouth of Sauron]]===
[[Aragorn II|Aragorn]] mentions that the name "[[Sauron]]" (meaning "Abominable") is the name used by his enemies, and Sauron himself does not permit it to be pronounced.<ref>{{HM|TT}}, "[[The Departure of Boromir]]"</ref> Therefore it would be problematic, if not logically impossible for a servant of Sauron to have a title or name that includes the word "Sauron".

;Explanation: It could be that Aragorn was mistaken.

===[[Galadriel]]'s role===
Galadriel tells the Fellowship, "I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, or in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be.<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[Lothlórien]]"</ref> Later she tells Frodo, "I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor."<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Mirror of Galadriel]]"</ref> However, the rhyme she sends Aragorn advises a specific course: the [[Grey Company]] should come out of [[Rivendell]], and Aragorn should take the [[Paths of the Dead]].<ref>{{HM|TT}}, "[[The White Rider]]"</ref> Likewise [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]] conclude that Galadriel sent the message to the Grey Company telling them to join Aragorn in [[Rohan]]; this seems to be "contriving" and "choosing between one course and another". Incidentally, it is odd that the Grey Company got this message without knowing who it was from.<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Passing of the Grey Company]]"</ref>

;Explanation: One could imagine that someone else (Celeborn?) made the decisions and Galadriel only sent the messages. Legolas and Gimli may have erred in thinking she was the source.

===Galadriel's mind-reading===
Galadriel tells Frodo and Sam that she can knows Sauron's thoughts that concern the Elves.<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Mirror of Galadriel]]"</ref> It seems strange that they don't ask her whether she has any information they find useful and she doesn't offer them any. Also, she doesn't seem to have known about [[Saruman]]'s betrayal some nineteen years earlier, though the defection of a member of the [[White Council]] might be thought to concern the Elves. At least, she didn't warn Gandalf in the messages he got from Lórien after reading the [[Scroll of Isildur]], the year before he trustingly entered [[Orthanc]].<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Council of Elrond]]"</ref> (Also, when Aragorn was serving in Gondor under the name [[Thorongil]], he "often warned [[Ecthelion II|Ecthelion]] not to put trust in Saruman".<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "Appendix A"</ref> It's strange that he knew not to trust Saruman but Gandalf didn't.)
;Explanation: Conceivably Galadriel gained the ability to read Sauron's mind sometime after the messages went to Gandalf.

===Tales of hobbits===
Pippin tells [[Théoden]], "I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits."<ref>{{HM|TT}}, "[[The Road to Isengard]]"</ref> But hobbits live in [[Bree]], [[Tom Bombadil]] knows many stories about hobbits, one would think the [[Rangers]] (who guard the [[Shire]] and Bree) and the Elves of Rivendell (where Bilbo has been living) would know some, and the Elves of Lórien have at least heard of hobbits.<ref>[[Haldir]] says, "We had not heard of—hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year...." {{HM|FR}}, "Lothlórien"</ref>

;Explanation: Pippin has just woken up from a nap, after a lunch that included wine, and is talking to a king for the first time in his life; he may not be thinking clearly.

===Possession of the [[Nine Rings]]===
In ''[[The Council of Elrond]]'' [[Gandalf]] says that the [[Nazgûl]] kept their Rings by saying "The Nine the Nazgûl keep"<ref>{{HM|FR}}, [[The Council of Elrond]]</ref>. However in most other references, it is mentioned that Sauron had taken them.<ref>"the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed." {{HM|FR}}, [[The Shadow of the Past]]</ref><ref>"You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." {{HM|FR}}, [[The Mirror of Galadriel]]</ref> Furthermore, Frodo doesn't see any Rings on them on [[Weathertop]], and it is believed that if they did wore the Rings, they would have given them full [[Unseen|invisibility]] (the cloaks would be useless).

The line in the Council of Elrond represents Tolkien's earlier intention that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.

;Explanation: The phrase can be also interpreted as "The Nine keep the Nazgûl [in Sauron’s thralldom]"; or as the Nazgûl are Sauron's slaves, his owning the Rings may be equivalent to the Nazgûl's keeping them.
:Additionally, perhaps Gandalf was mistaken.

===Feeling the [[Mithril#The_Mithril_Coat|''mithril'' coat]]===
The mithril coat that Bilbo gives Frodo is "almost as supple as linen",<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Ring Goes South]]"</ref> and Aragorn carries Frodo in Moria (after the orc chieftain spears Frodo) without noticing the coat.<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Bridge of Khazad-dûm]]"</ref> However, when Bilbo slaps Frodo on the back after giving him the coat, he says, "Ow!... You are too hard now to slap!"<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Ring Goes South]]"</ref>

;Explanation: Perhaps Bilbo is joking.

===Knowledge of the ''Palantíri''===
After Gandalf learns that the crystal ball he has recovered is the ''[[palantír]]'' of [[Orthanc]], he tells [[Pippin]] the [[White Council]] didn't know any of the ''palantíri'' (presumably those of [[Gondor]]) survived disaster in Gondor (presumably the [[Kin-strife]]).<ref>"It was not known to us that any of the ''palantíri'' had escaped the ruin of Gondor." {{HM|TT}}, "[[The Palantír]]"</ref> However, after [[Denethor II|Denethor]] reveals his ''palantír'', Gandalf claims to have known all along that the [[Stewards of Gondor|Stewards]] had it.<ref>"Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long have I known that here in the White Tower, as at Orthanc, one of the Seven Stones was preserved." {{HM|RK}}, "[[The Pyre of Denethor]]"</ref>
;Explanation: Gandalf could have learned about Denethor's ''palantír'' by himself, after the last time the White Council met.

===The peril of deep arts===
In connection with the ''palantír'' of Orthanc, Gandalf observes to Pippin, "Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."<ref>{{HM|TT}}, "[[The Palantír]]".</ref> However, never in ''The Hobbit'' or ''The Lord of the Rings'' does he warn [[Thorin Oakenshield|Thorin]] or the hobbits against using their magic swords, and he returns the [[Phial of Galadriel]] to Frodo and [[Gifts of Galadriel|Galadriel's box of earth]] to Sam. Also, there is no apparent danger in characters' using other products of elven arts (cloaks, ''[[hithlain]]'' ropes, ''[[lembas]]'').
;Explanation: How [[magic]] works is not clear. Parts of the books indicate that the some arts of the Elves despite appearing so, are not "magic". However maybe the ''palantíri'' are "devices" in a sense in which the other things named are not.
:Furthermore, it's possible that Gandalf only attempted to discourage Pippin from his curiosity, knowing that this could connect him with Sauron (as he finally did).

==Factual mistakes==
===[[Doors of Durin]]===
The name ''[[Moria]]'' means "Black Chasm" and was a derogatory description of the place which the [[Dwarves]] did not like much; it was given after [[Durin's Bane]] took over the city and it was overrun by [[Orcs]]. It is therefore a paradox why that name appears on the [[Doors of Durin]] (''Ennyn Durin Aran Moria''), made in the [[Second Age]], and with the consent of the Dwarves.

;Explanation: Possibly Moria was an older name than believed; also it is possible that the Dwarves could not read [[Tengwar]].
:Another "external" explanation is that since the translated [[Norse]] names [[Durin]] and [[Narvi]] are seen in the inscription, ''Moria'' may also be a "translated" name.

===[[Eagles]]===
One of the best-known alleged plot holes is why the Eagles came to carry Frodo and Sam back from [[Mount Doom]] but did not help them to fly the [[One Ring]] there. While there are many counter explanations, it is a logical gap why this idea was not proposed in the [[Council of Elrond]].
;Explanation: See [[Eagles#Flying_the_Ring_to_Mount_Doom|here]] for a more detailed discussion.

===Distances===
The distances of the Dwarves' travel to [[Rivendell]] in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' seem to have different proportions than those in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Tolkien tried to reconcile the ''Hobbit'' description with the scale of the ''LotR'' map but couldn't find an appropriate solution.<ref>{{HM|RS}} p. 204</ref>

While Frodo and his companions needed 28 days from [[Hobbiton]] to [[Rivendell]] (10.7 miles/day)<ref name="atlas">[[Atlas of Middle-earth]]</ref>, [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] calculated that Bilbo and [[Thorin and Company]] needed 38 days (17.5 miles/day)<ref name="atlas"/>. [[Andreas Moehn]] goes further and supposes that Thorin and Co. wanted two weeks from the [[Trollshaws]] till Rivendell (a distance which [[Glorfindel]] covered in two days), resulting in c. 48 days total.<ref>http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref>.
;Explanation: The distances and days are not described in the narrative and can be measured only by references such as the moon phases and other fan calculations; therefore there can be a margin of miscalculation.
:In general, perhaps the Dwarves are by nature slower travelers than the Hobbits.

===Moon phases===
Tolkien was particularly careful about the phases of the [[Moon]] in the ''LotR''. Yet some mistakes did elude him. See for example [[January 13]], [[January 16]], [[February 22]], [[September 22]].

In general, it is possible that Tolkien consulted a modern almanac to model the moon phases, and also possible that he confused the meanings of "New Moon": the astronomical (the moment when the moon is darkest) and the colloquial (appearance of the new crescent moon).<ref>http://shire-reckoning.com/moon.html</ref>

Another mistake appears in ''The Hobbit'': [[Bard I]] killed [[Smaug]] "at the rising of the moon"<ref>{{HM|H}}, [[The Gathering of the Clouds]]</ref> when "the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his [Smaug's] great wings... the waxing moon rose higher and higher". Also the [[thrush]] tells Bard, "Wait! Wait!... The Moon is rising," <ref>{{HM|H}}, [[Fire and Water]]</ref>. However according to astronomy<ref>http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref> a waxing moon rises only in the morning, after the sun.

;Explanation: The moon could have been waning and setting in the ''west'' (not rising from the east), thus helping Bard kill Smaug.

===Shadow over Eregion===
While the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] traverses [[Hollin]], they see and feel a flying shadow over them.<ref>{{HM|FR}}, [[The Ring Goes South]]</ref> Since no other such phenomena occur, when the [[Fell Beast]]s are introduced, the reader makes such a connection. However later we learn that Sauron did not permit the Nazgûl to traverse west of the [[Anduin]] after their accident at [[Bruinen]].

;Explanation: Possibly it was a "lost" or "disobeying" Nazgûl who despite orders found himself prematurely west of the Anduin, or simply something wholly unexplained and unrelated to the Fell Beasts. Perhaps it was some feeling of foreboding as they would eventually have to go to Moria.

===A choice of dangers===
Aragorn tells the hobbits, as they prepare to leave [[Bree]], "After [[Weathertop]] our journey will become more difficult, and we shall have to choose between various dangers."<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[Strider (chapter)|Strider]]"</ref> The ridges they have to climb after Weathertop may be more difficult than the [[Midgewater Marshes]], but they encounter no dangers on the route Aragorn chooses, and Aragorn doesn't warn the hobbits of any dangers (except one they have no choice about: the chance that the Nazgûl will find them as they cross the [[Last Bridge]]).<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[Flight to the Ford]]"</ref>

===Beater and Biter===
The swords [[Glamdring]] and its "mate" [[Orcrist]] are found in a [[Troll]] hoard, said to belong to King [[Turgon]] of the [[First Age]]. They never appeared much in battle (Turgon fought only in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]) and they were witnessed only by the Orcs of Beleriand.

After the fall of Gondolin, the swords somehow were carried from the ruin of [[Beleriand]] to [[Eriador]]. It is however questionable how the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] did recognize them by their names.

The Orcs don't seem to react similarly in the sight of Glamdring in ''LotR'', nor do they seem to recognize [[Narsil]]/[[Anduril]], which is much more "recent".

;Explanation: There can be several theories and explanations of how the swords and their fames reach Eriador. The only problem is the narrative of the ''[[Silmarillion]]'', which doesn't justify their significance to the extent of being remembered and recognized by the Goblins of the Third Age, even by tradition.

===The elf-king's favorite gems===
The narration of ''The Hobbit'' says the [[Thranduil|elf-king]]'s favorite gems are "white."<ref>"If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems...." {{HM|H}}, "[[Flies and Spiders]]"</ref> However, after the [[Battle of Five Armies]], the narration says, "To the Elven-king he <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Bard]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> sent the emeralds of [[Girion]], such gems as he most loved...."<ref>{{HM|H}}, "[[The Return Journey]]"</ref>

;Explanation: The sentence is somewhat ambiguous: "he" could refer to Bard or Girion instead of the elf-king. However, the elf-king's preference in gems, not the others', would be relevant to Bard's choice of what to give him.

==Corrected mistakes==
{{stub}}
Several mistakes were simply remnants of earlier concepts of Tolkien, which later escaped his attention when revising the book. Some of them were corrected in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]].
===Bandobras' parentage===
The ''[[Prologue]]'' mentions that [[Bandobras Took]] was the son (not grandson) of [[Isengrim Took II]]. This has been corrected in the 50th Anniversary edition.

===Sam's birth===
In the second edition of ''LotR'', [[Sam Gamgee]]'s year of birth was added to ''[[The Tale of Years]]'' as [[Third Age 2963]]. This contradicts both a later entry in ''The Tale of Years'' and the [[Appendix C]] given as [[Third Age 2980]].<ref>[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]], page 716</ref>
===[[Gimli]]'s Axe===
Upon arrival in [[Edoras]], Gimli mentions his axe has touched nothing but firewood since they left Moria. Yet he also claims he and [[Legolas]] killed several Orcs at [[Amon Hen]].
;Explanation: This discrepancy was noted by [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', where they explained why they left it unchanged in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]]. Amon Hen was a week before the Battle of the Hornburg; even for a stout Dwarven warrior, lamenting not killing an Orc for that short period would make him look too bloodthirsty.
{{references}}
[[category:debates]]

User:Oitur

2009-07-06T03:03:51Z

Oitur:

I am a Tokienist not a "Ringer". I have read The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, The Silmarillion, and The Children of Húrin.

User:Oitur

2009-06-16T00:05:50Z

Oitur:

Hola! Soy Mexicano. I am a Tokienist not a "Ringer". I have read The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, The Silmarillion, and The Children of Húrin.

Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Warden of the Keys

Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

User:Oitur

User:Oitur