Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Talk:Fangorn Forest

2019-04-01T16:26:00Z

PyresAtVaranasi: Concerning the "Old Forest:" spawning from Eriador to Caledhardon.

Btw. Should we take East End as a name of the Fangorn Forest? In the Chapter "Treebeard" the old Ent says to the hobbits: 'Aye, aye, there was all one wood once upon a time: from here to the Mountains of Lune, and this was just the East End.' --Tik 19:59, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
:I don't know. Perhaps it fits but then again it seems like it's describing "current" Fangorn Forest's location regarding the rest of the ancient. All I'm saying is, though the capital letters indicate that it's a proper noun, it might just be its geographical location. You should wait till someone else gives their opinion though, I don't have too much authority. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:27, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

::I would say so, but not in the opening para. Include it in the infobox and then in the history section it can be referenced directly. Do you think that works? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:25, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

::I am wondering on something, when they described Fangorn as the last eastern remains of the Old Forest (spawnig all of Eriador, Enedwaith and Calerhardon (Rohan) does he trully mean all of Rohan?. I was always under the impression that Rohan was mostly comprised of plains except for the East with the naturaly created East Wall of Rohan. Also in Northwestern Rohan near the Gap of Rohan and Isengard were the plains meet Fangorn in the north, and Dunland/Enedwaith in the west (which I assumed that although deforested heavily by the Númenóreans in the Second Age it was not completely devoid of forested areas). So the Old Forest could have spread from Eriador south to Enedwaith/Dunland and then towards the Northwest of Caledhardon (Gap of Rohan-Isengard-Fangorn area). I could be incorrect and it was all of Caledhardon, but I always had the impression that central Caledhardon/Rohan was always comprised of grassy plains.Sorry for my grammar (spanish in my main language). Just putting my 2 cents out there. -- {{User:PyresAtVaranasi/sig}} 12:12, 1 april 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Fangorn Forest

2019-04-01T16:24:16Z

PyresAtVaranasi: Concerning the Old Forest from Eriador to Caledhardon.

Btw. Should we take East End as a name of the Fangorn Forest? In the Chapter "Treebeard" the old Ent says to the hobbits: 'Aye, aye, there was all one wood once upon a time: from here to the Mountains of Lune, and this was just the East End.' --Tik 19:59, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
:I don't know. Perhaps it fits but then again it seems like it's describing "current" Fangorn Forest's location regarding the rest of the ancient. All I'm saying is, though the capital letters indicate that it's a proper noun, it might just be its geographical location. You should wait till someone else gives their opinion though, I don't have too much authority. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:27, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

::I would say so, but not in the opening para. Include it in the infobox and then in the history section it can be referenced directly. Do you think that works? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:25, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

::I am wondering on something, when they described Fangorn as the last eastern remains of the Old Forest (spawnig all of Eriador, Enedwaith and Calerhardon (Rohan) does he trully mean all of Rohan?. I was always under the impression that Rohan was mostly comprised of plains except for the East with the naturaly created East Wall of Rohan. Also in Northwestern Rohan near the Gap of Rohan and Isengard were the plains meet Fangorn in the north, and Dunland/Enedwaith in the west (which I assumed that although deforested heavily by the Númenóreans in the Second Age it was not completely devoid of forested areas). So the Old Forest could have spread from Eriador south to Enedwaith/Dunland and then towards the Northwest of Caledhardon (Gap of Rohan-Isengard-Fangorn area). I could be incorrect and it was all of Caledhardon, but I always had the impression that central Caledhardon/Rohan was always comprised of grassy plains.Sorry for my grammar (spanish in my main language). Just putting my 2 cents out there. --[[User:PyresAtVaranasi|PyresAtVaranasi]] 12:12, 1 april 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Fangorn Forest

2019-04-01T16:22:01Z

PyresAtVaranasi:

Btw. Should we take East End as a name of the Fangorn Forest? In the Chapter "Treebeard" the old Ent says to the hobbits: 'Aye, aye, there was all one wood once upon a time: from here to the Mountains of Lune, and this was just the East End.' --Tik 19:59, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
:I don't know. Perhaps it fits but then again it seems like it's describing "current" Fangorn Forest's location regarding the rest of the ancient. All I'm saying is, though the capital letters indicate that it's a proper noun, it might just be its geographical location. You should wait till someone else gives their opinion though, I don't have too much authority. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:27, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

::I would say so, but not in the opening para. Include it in the infobox and then in the history section it can be referenced directly. Do you think that works? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:25, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
I am wondering on something, when they described Fangorn as the last eastern remains of the Old Forest (spawnig all of Eriador, Enedwaith and Calerhardon (Rohan) does he trully mean all of Rohan?. I was always under the impression that Rohan was mostly comprised of plains except for the East with the naturaly created East Wall of Rohan. Also in Northwestern Rohan near the Gap of Rohan and Isengard were the plains meet Fangorn in the north, and Dunland/Enedwaith in the west (which I assumed that although deforested heavily by the Númenóreans in the Second Age it was not completely devoid of forested areas). So the Old Forest could have spread from Eriador south to Enedwaith/Dunland and then towards the Northwest of Caledhardon (Gap of Rohan-Isengard-Fangorn area). I could be incorrect and it was all of Caledhardon, but I always had the impression that central Caledhardon/Rohan was always comprised of grassy plains.Sorry for my grammar (spanish in my main language). Just putting my 2 cents out there. [[User:PyresAtVaranasi|PyresAtVaranasi]]

Talk:Fangorn Forest

2019-04-01T16:20:19Z

PyresAtVaranasi: Regarding the "Old Forest" spreading from Eriador to Caledhardon.

Btw. Should we take East End as a name of the Fangorn Forest? In the Chapter "Treebeard" the old Ent says to the hobbits: 'Aye, aye, there was all one wood once upon a time: from here to the Mountains of Lune, and this was just the East End.' --Tik 19:59, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
:I don't know. Perhaps it fits but then again it seems like it's describing "current" Fangorn Forest's location regarding the rest of the ancient. All I'm saying is, though the capital letters indicate that it's a proper noun, it might just be its geographical location. You should wait till someone else gives their opinion though, I don't have too much authority. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:27, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

::I would say so, but not in the opening para. Include it in the infobox and then in the history section it can be referenced directly. Do you think that works? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:25, 5 January 2019 (UTC)I am wondering on something, when they described Fangorn as the last eastern remains of the Old Forest (spawnig all of Eriador, Enedwaith and Calerhardon (Rohan) does he trully mean all of Rohan?. I was always under the impression that Rohan was mostly comprised of plains except for the East with the naturaly created East Wall of Rohan. Also in Northwestern Rohan near the Gap of Rohan and Isengard were the plains meet Fangorn in the north, and Dunland/Enedwaith in the west (which I assumed that although deforested heavily by the Númenóreans in the Second Age it was not completely devoid of forested areas). So the Old Forest could have spread from Eriador south to Enedwaith/Dunland and then towards the Northwest of Caledhardon (Gap of Rohan-Isengard-Fangorn area). I could be incorrect and it was all of Caledhardon, but I always had the impression that central Caledhardon/Rohan was always comprised of grassy plains.Sorry for my grammar (spanish in my main language). Just putting my 2 cents out there.

Avari

2019-03-31T13:06:21Z

PyresAtVaranasi: /* History */

{{cleanup}}
{{people infobox
| name=Avari
| image=[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Avari Elf.jpg|250px]]
| caption="[[:File:Peter Xavier Price - Avari Elf.jpg|Avari Elf]]" by [[Peter Xavier Price]]
| pronun=
| othernames=Dark-elves, The Unwilling, Wild Elves
| origin=Elves who refused to make the [[Great Journey]]
| location=[[Cuiviénen]], [[Taur-im-Duinath]], [[Rhûn]], [[Eriador]], [[Vales of Anduin]]
| affiliation=
| rivalry=[[Eldar]]<ref name=WJA /><ref name=WJ377 />
| language=[[Avarin]] languages
| members=Possibly [[Morwë]], [[Nurwë]]
| lifespan=Immortal
| distinctions=
| height=
| hair=
| skin=White
| clothing=
| weapons=
}}
{{pronounce|Quenya - Avari.mp3|Gilgamesh}}

The '''Avari''' ([[Quenya|Q]]: "unwilling"; or "'''the Refusers'''"<ref>{{PM|Atani}}, p. 312</ref>) were a branch of [[Elves]] that refused to make the [[Great Journey]].

==History==
The original [[Elves]] that [[Awakening of the Elves|awakened]] in [[Cuiviénen]] numbered 144, and they were divided into three clans: the [[Minyar]], which had 14 members; the [[Tatyar]], which had 56 members; and the [[Nelyar]] (or [[Lindar]]), which had 74 members. After the [[Vala]] [[Oromë]] invited the Elves to live in [[Valinor]], the Elves entered into a great debate on whether to follow Oromë into the west. Most of the Elves were persuaded to undertake this [[Great Journey]], including all of the Minyar, half of the Tatyar, and 46 of the Nelyar. These Elves became known collectively as the [[Eldar]], and their clans became known by new names: the Minyar Eldar were called the [[Vanyar]], the Tatyar Eldar were called the [[Noldor]], and the Nelyar Eldar were called the [[Teleri]].<ref name=WJ3801>{{WJ|C}}, pp. 380-83</ref>

Those Elves who refused to take the Great Journey were called the Avari, and they were not counted among the Eldar.<ref>{{S|3}}, p. 41</ref> Their initial population had 56 members, consisting of 28 (half) of the [[Tatyar]] and 28 of the [[Nelyar]],<ref name=WJ3801 /> the latter of whom maybe were called Lindai. Some of them, especially those who dwelt furthest from the waters of [[Cuiviénen]] and wandered in the hills, had not seen Oromë at his first coming, and knew only vague, fearful rumours of the Valar; lies of Melkor concerning Oromë and [[Nahar]] perhaps had a role.<ref>{{MR|Annals}}</ref> Many thus refused to depart from their own lands, and spread gradually throughout the wide lands of [[Middle-earth]]. According to a tradition their leaders were [[Morwë]] of the Tatyar and [[Nurwë]] of the Nelyar. They were after known by the name "the Unwilling" because they refused the summons.

According to the legends, [[Orcs]] may be descended from Avarin elves captured and corrupted by [[Morgoth|Melkor]].

Over time, many Avari wandered westwards. Some mingled with the [[Nandor]] of the [[Vales of Anduin]], and others entered [[Eriador]].<ref name=WJA>{{WJ|Author}}, pp. 409-410</ref> Some time after the [[Green-elves|Laiquendi]] settled in Beleriand, some Avari "crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South."<ref name=WJ377>{{WJ|B}}, p. 377</ref> Most of these Avari remained secretive and isolated from the other elves, living in caves and deep in the forests.<ref name=WJ377 /> They viewed the Eldar with jealousy and disdain, believing that the Eldar were deserters, and they treated the Eldar with hostility and treachery. They especially disliked the exiled [[Noldor]] who returned from Aman.<ref name=WJA /> Rarely, an Avar was accepted into Sindarin society.<ref name=WJ377 /> Outside of Beleriand, in Eriador and the Vales of the Anduin, some Avari and Eldar eventually established friendlier relations.<ref name=WJA />

The [[Edain]] who travelled to the West met the Avari first of all the Elves, and were taught from them music and language, which influenced theirs. They probably taught them many of the basic crafts of civilization, though the craft of the Eldar surpassed that of the Avari even more than that of the Avari surpassed primitive [[Men]].

Some Avari after the end of the [[First Age]] started to mingle with the scattered [[Nandor]] beyond the [[Misty Mountains]] and they became hardly distinguishable from them, afterwards known as [[Silvan Elves]].<ref>{{UT|6a}}</ref>

It is told that no Avari Elves were to be found west of the [[Misty Mountains]] during the late [[Third Age]].<ref>{{PE|17}}, p. 53</ref>

==Tribes==
Six tribes of Avari are mentioned in the [[Third Age]], and their names are all cognates of the [[Primitive Quendian]] word [[Quendi|Kwendî]] (''the Speakers''): '''[[Kindi]]''', '''[[Cuind]]''', '''[[Hwenti]]''', '''[[Windan]]''', '''[[Kinn-lai]]''', '''[[Penni]]'''.<ref>{{WJ|Author}}, Note 9</ref>

==Languages==
{{main|Avarin}}
The Avari had many tribes and greatly varied languages, widely sundered from one another.<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}}, p.410</ref> The names above are the only certain [[Avarin]] words ever mentioned by the Loremasters.

It is also possible that the name [[Eöl]] is an Avarin one.

It is speculated also that [[Dorwinion]] was an Avarin land.<ref>http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/site3/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=36</ref>

==Names==
The Avari were called ''[[Abari]]'' in [[Telerin]];<ref name=WJB>{{WJ|B}}</ref> they were also called ''[[Moripendi]]'' (an equivalent of [[Quenya]] ''[[Moriquendi]]'' which referred to the [[Sindar]] as well)<ref>{{WJ|A}}</ref>.

In [[Sindarin]] they were called ''Evair'', ''[[Morben]]'' or ''Mornedhel''.<ref name=WJB/>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In older versions of the legendarium, the name ''Avari'' was originally that of the later [[Eldar]], then meaning "those that departed".

In other, relatively late writings, a brief idea was that the Avari did not come from the three clans, but from two other clans, led by [[Nurwë]] and [[Morwë]]. This idea was later dropped. In the final conception, the [[Elves]] were divided into three tribes.

==External links==
*[http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/avarin.htm Avarin languages at Ardalambion]

{{references}}{{elves}}
[[Category:Avari| ]]
[[Category:Quenya nouns]]
[[de:Avari]]
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/elfes/avari]]
[[fi:Avari]]

Avari

2019-03-31T13:05:12Z

PyresAtVaranasi: /* History */

{{cleanup}}
{{people infobox
| name=Avari
| image=[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Avari Elf.jpg|250px]]
| caption="[[:File:Peter Xavier Price - Avari Elf.jpg|Avari Elf]]" by [[Peter Xavier Price]]
| pronun=
| othernames=Dark-elves, The Unwilling, Wild Elves
| origin=Elves who refused to make the [[Great Journey]]
| location=[[Cuiviénen]], [[Taur-im-Duinath]], [[Rhûn]], [[Eriador]], [[Vales of Anduin]]
| affiliation=
| rivalry=[[Eldar]]<ref name=WJA /><ref name=WJ377 />
| language=[[Avarin]] languages
| members=Possibly [[Morwë]], [[Nurwë]]
| lifespan=Immortal
| distinctions=
| height=
| hair=
| skin=White
| clothing=
| weapons=
}}
{{pronounce|Quenya - Avari.mp3|Gilgamesh}}

The '''Avari''' ([[Quenya|Q]]: "unwilling"; or "'''the Refusers'''"<ref>{{PM|Atani}}, p. 312</ref>) were a branch of [[Elves]] that refused to make the [[Great Journey]].

==History==
The original [[Elves]] that [[Awakening of the Elves|awakened]] in [[Cuiviénen]] numbered 144, and they were divided into three clans: the [[Minyar]], which had 14 members; the [[Tatyar]], which had 56 members; and the [[Nelyar]] (or [[Lindar]]), which had 74 members. After the [[Vala]] [[Oromë]] invited the Elves to live in [[Valinor]], the Elves entered into a great debate on whether to follow Oromë into the west. Most of the Elves were persuaded to undertake this [[Great Journey]], including all of the Minyar, half of the Tatyar, and 46 of the Nelyar. These Elves became known collectively as the [[Eldar]], and their clans became known by new names: the Minyar Eldar were called the [[Vanyar]], the Tatyar Eldar were called the [[Noldor]], and the Nelyar Eldar were called the [[Teleri]].<ref name=WJ3801>{{WJ|C}}, pp. 380-83</ref>

Those Elves who refused to take the Great Journey were called the Avari, and they were not counted among the Eldar.<ref>{{S|3}}, p. 41</ref> Their initial population had 56 members, consisting of 28 (half) of the [[Tatyar]] and 28 of the [[Nelyar]],<ref name=WJ3801 /> the latter of whom maybe were called Lindai. Some of them, especially those who dwelt furthest from the waters of [[Cuiviénen]] and wandered in the hills, had not seen Oromë at his first coming, and knew only vague, fearful rumours of the Valar; lies of Melkor concerning Oromë and [[Nahar]] perhaps had a role.<ref>{{MR|Annals}}</ref> Many thus refused to depart from their own lands, and spread gradually throughout the wide lands of [[Middle-earth]]. According to a tradition their leaders were [[Morwë]] of the Tatyar and [[Nurwë]] of the Nelyar. They were after known by the name "the Unwilling" because they refused the summons.

According to the legends, [[Orcs]] may be descended from Avarin elves captured and corrupted by [[Morgoth|Melkor]].

Over time, many Avari wandered westwards. Some mingled with the [[Nandor]] of the [[Vales of Anduin]], and others entered [[Eriador]].<ref name=WJA>{{WJ|Author}}, pp. 409-410</ref> Some time after the [[Green-elves|Laiquendi]] settled in Beleriand, some Avari "crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South."<ref name=WJ377>{{WJ|B}}, p. 377</ref> Most of these Avari remained secretive and isolated from the other elves, living in caves and deep in the forests.<ref name=WJ377 /> They viewed the Eldar with jealousy and disdain, believing that the Eldar were deserters, and they treated the Eldar with hostility and treachery. They especially disliked the exiled [[Noldor]] who returned from Aman.<ref name=WJA /> Rarely, an Avar was accepted into Sindarin society.<ref name=WJ377 /> Outside of Beleriand, in Eriador and in the Vales of the Anduin, some Avari and Eldar eventually established friendlier relations.<ref name=WJA />

The [[Edain]] who travelled to the West met the Avari first of all the Elves, and were taught from them music and language, which influenced theirs. They probably taught them many of the basic crafts of civilization, though the craft of the Eldar surpassed that of the Avari even more than that of the Avari surpassed primitive [[Men]].

Some Avari after the end of the [[First Age]] started to mingle with the scattered [[Nandor]] beyond the [[Misty Mountains]] and they became hardly distinguishable from them, afterwards known as [[Silvan Elves]].<ref>{{UT|6a}}</ref>

It is told that no Avari Elves were to be found west of the [[Misty Mountains]] during the late [[Third Age]].<ref>{{PE|17}}, p. 53</ref>

==Tribes==
Six tribes of Avari are mentioned in the [[Third Age]], and their names are all cognates of the [[Primitive Quendian]] word [[Quendi|Kwendî]] (''the Speakers''): '''[[Kindi]]''', '''[[Cuind]]''', '''[[Hwenti]]''', '''[[Windan]]''', '''[[Kinn-lai]]''', '''[[Penni]]'''.<ref>{{WJ|Author}}, Note 9</ref>

==Languages==
{{main|Avarin}}
The Avari had many tribes and greatly varied languages, widely sundered from one another.<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}}, p.410</ref> The names above are the only certain [[Avarin]] words ever mentioned by the Loremasters.

It is also possible that the name [[Eöl]] is an Avarin one.

It is speculated also that [[Dorwinion]] was an Avarin land.<ref>http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/site3/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=36</ref>

==Names==
The Avari were called ''[[Abari]]'' in [[Telerin]];<ref name=WJB>{{WJ|B}}</ref> they were also called ''[[Moripendi]]'' (an equivalent of [[Quenya]] ''[[Moriquendi]]'' which referred to the [[Sindar]] as well)<ref>{{WJ|A}}</ref>.

In [[Sindarin]] they were called ''Evair'', ''[[Morben]]'' or ''Mornedhel''.<ref name=WJB/>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In older versions of the legendarium, the name ''Avari'' was originally that of the later [[Eldar]], then meaning "those that departed".

In other, relatively late writings, a brief idea was that the Avari did not come from the three clans, but from two other clans, led by [[Nurwë]] and [[Morwë]]. This idea was later dropped. In the final conception, the [[Elves]] were divided into three tribes.

==External links==
*[http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/avarin.htm Avarin languages at Ardalambion]

{{references}}{{elves}}
[[Category:Avari| ]]
[[Category:Quenya nouns]]
[[de:Avari]]
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/elfes/avari]]
[[fi:Avari]]