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First Age

2007-03-23T23:36:53Z

Rog: it didn't begin with the rising of the sun

{{History of Arda}}
The '''First Age''' of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]] began with the [[Awakening of the Elves]] and ended with the final overthrow of [[Morgoth]] by the combined armies of [[Valinor]] and Beleriand. The First Age was also known as the '''Elder Days'''.

Much of what is related of this period in ''The Silmarillion'' occurs within the last 50 years preceding the defeat of Morgoth.

Tolkien describes primarily the events that occurred in Beleriand. These were centered around a series of wars waged by the [[Sindar]], the Noldor and the Three Houses of the [[Edain]], against the armies of [[Angband]] and the evil [[Men]]. The wars had actually begun before the First Age, during the Years of the Trees, but began again with renewed fury after the arrival of the Noldor in Beleriand. There had been Elves in Beleriand for uncounted millennia, but they sought merely to exist, and [[Morgoth]] had little to do with them. The Noldor, on the other hand, particularly the [[Sons of Fëanor]], had come with the express purpose of defeating Morgoth.

The chief battles of the First Age are:
* The [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]] (''Battle under the Stars'', so named because it was fought before the rising of the Sun) was fought soon after the arrival of the Ñoldor. Morgoth sent a raiding party from Angband to attack the Noldor encampment in [[Hithlum]], but the Elves drove it back. [[Fëanor]] was killed. It is considered the second battle in the Wars of Beleriand, after one that took place during the Years of the Trees.
* The [[Dagor Aglareb]] (''Glorious Battle'') was fought about seventy-five years after the return of the Ñoldor. Morgoth again attacked the Noldor, and again with no success. The Ñoldor became so bold as to besiege Angband. However, the Siege was of limited effectiveness, because the northern side of Angband was on the north side of the [[Ered Engrin]], and was unapproachable.
* The [[Dagor Bragollach]] (''Battle of Sudden Flame'') began when Morgoth poured rivers of fire out of Angband, ruining the besieging Noldorin armies. The Ñoldor eventually mustered a defense, but their losses were severe. For instance, the green plain of [[Ard-galen]] had been permanently laid waste by the rivers of fire, and was now called ''Anfauglith'', the Choking Dust; and the highlands of [[Dorthonion]], which had been inhabited by Edain, were made inhospitable.
* The [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]] (''Unnumbered Tears'') was the first battle to be initiated by the Noldor. They massed an army composed of Elves, Edain, and the houses of [[Bór]] and [[Ulfang]] allied to the Sons of Fëanor. The Elves and their allies advanced very close to Angband, but Morgoth's trickery had upset their battle plan, and Ulfang proved treacherous. The name "Unnumbered Tears" comes from the fact that the Elves' last hope of victory was destroyed. The land of Hithlum was lost, the Sons of Fëanor were largely scattered, and the peoples of Beleriand had been decimated. Morgoth's Orcs made a heap of the Elven and Mannish dead in the center of Anfauglith.
* The [[War of Wrath]] took place after [[Eärendil]] sailed to Valinor and persuaded the [[Valar]] to help those whom they had forsaken. The Valar gathered an army comprised of [[Maiar]], [[Vanyar]], and those Ñoldor who had stayed in Valinor. The [[Teleri]] refused their aid, due to an old offense dealt them by the Ñoldor of Beleriand, but consented to ferry the armies of the Valar in their famous ships. This battle marked the first appearance of the winged dragons, most notably [[Ancalagon]] the Black, but the Valar had the day. Morgoth was captured, and cast out of [[Arda]], but his lands, as well as most of Beleriand, had been destroyed and sunk under the sea in the heat of battle.

[[Category:Ages]]

Glorfindel

2007-03-23T23:32:38Z

Rog: /* Are they the same? */ not reincarnated, re-embodied

* [[Glorfindel of Gondolin]], lived in the [[First Age]] as an elf-lord of [[Gondolin]]
* [[Glorfindel of Rivendell]], appears in [[The Lord of the Rings]]

{{disambig}}

==Are they the same?==

It is possible, and indeed frequently argued, that Glorfindel of Rivendell was [[Glorfindel of Gondolin]] re-embodied. If that is the case, then he is the only known re-embodied Elf to have returned from [[Aman]] to Middle-earth. This is consistent with Glorfindel's powers against the Ringwraiths, as well as with the statement that he is an Elf-lord (Glorfindel of Gondolin was known as the Chief of the [[House of the Golden Flower]]). Tolkien himself stated this possibility to be true in an essay written late in life (found in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]''):

{{quote|An Elf who had. . . fought in the long wars against [[Melkor]] would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel. . . landed with Gandalf-Olórin about [[Third Age]] 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel - not how the Witch-king flies from him, although all others. . . however brave could not induce their horses to face him. . . ''[A long discussion of reincarnation follows here]'' . . . At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned; sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. . . ''[A telling of Glorfindel's tale follows here]'' . . . We may then suppose that Glorfindel returned during the [[Second Age]], before the 'shadow' fell on [[Númenor]]. . .|[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]], [[Last Writings]], "Glorfindel"}}

However, it is a matter of dispute whether he believed this at the time he wrote ''The Lord of the Rings''. At that point he frequently used names from his unpublished Silmarillion for characters and locations in the newer work, without implying that they were the same (as in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' for "[[Elrond]]" and "[[Gondolin]]"). However, in ''[[The Return of the Shadow]]'', a rejected draft states that "''Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin''", suggesting to some that he might have toyed with making him the same Elf (at the very least and at any rate, he considered making him an Elf of Gondolin).

Nightfall in Middle-Earth

2007-03-19T23:11:43Z

Rog: hope this is legal; added youtube video

'''Nightfall in Middle-Earth''' is an album by [[Blind Guardian]] that was released in 1998.

The album is a concept album based on the [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] book ''[[The Silmarillion]]''. Many of the tracks from the album are not complete songs, but are merely narratives to further the story.
Every track that tells a piece of the story has a great ambience, and contributes greatly to enhance the listening experience. Blind Guardian owes many of its lyrics to Tolkien's work, but this album is exclusively dedicated to "The Silmarillion", a book of tales from Middle-earth. The lyrics range from the quest for the [[Silmarils]] until the dawn of the Third Age, period in which [[The Lord of the Rings]] occurs.
Technically speaking, Blind Guardian is much more "melodic" in this album. Compared to previous works such as "Somewhere Far Beyond", the songs have much more fluency, without losing any of the traditional speed or guitar solos and leads.
"Nightfall in Middle-Earth" was the first album Blind Guardian released in the U.S.. The result was so positive that Century Media started to release old Blind Guardian hits in the U.S. (records such as "Follow the Blind" and "Battalions of Fear").
"Nightfall in Middle-Earth" includes a few of the band's best, such as "Mirror Mirror" and "Into the Storm". "Mirror Mirror" is included in the now-released Blind DVD: Imaginations Through The Looking Glass. This DVD was rated by many different music-specialized sites as "a masterpiece".

== Lineup ==
*Vocals: Hansi Kürsch
*Lead Guitar: André Olbrich
*Rythm Guitar: Marcus Siepen
*Drums: Thomas "Thomen" Stauch

== Guests ==
*Bass : Oliver Holzwarth
*Keyboards : Mathias Weisner
*Piano : Michael Schuren
*Flute : Max Zelner
*Narrations : Norman Eshley, Douglas Fielding

==Track listing==
#[[ War of Wrath]] ''1:50''
#Into the Storm ''4:24''
#Lammoth ''0:28''
#Nightfall ''5:34''
#The Minstrel ''0:32''
#The Curse of [[Fëanor]] ''5:41''
#Captured ''0:26''
#Blood Tears ''5:23''
#Mirror Mirror ''5:07''
#Face the Truth ''0:24''
#[[Noldor]] (Dead Winter Reigns) ''6:51''
#[[Dagor Bragollach|Battle of Sudden Flame]] ''0:44''
#Time Stands Still (at the Iron Hill) ''4:53''
#The [[Dark Elf]] ''0:23''
#Thorn ''6:18''
#The [[Sundering of the Elves| Eldar]] ''3:39''
#Nom the Wise ''0:33''
#When Sorrow Sang ''4:25''
#Out on the Water ''0:44''
#The Steadfast ''0:21''
#A Dark Passage ''6:01''
#Final Chapter (Thus Ends...) ''0:48''
*Bonus Tracks
#Nightfall (Orchestral Version)
#A Dark Passage (Orchestral Version)

==Sample: "Nightfall"==
<youtube>PrEm8jMC5Q8</youtube>
:About the [[Darkening of Valinor]] and the [[Oath of Fëanor]]

Fanon

2006-12-11T13:49:13Z

Rog: /* Legolas is 2931 */

'''Fanon''' is a term used to refer to "fan [[canon]]" (of which the term is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/portmanteau portmanteau]). It applies to certain "facts" that may have been accepted as a truth by a large number of fans, and thus either replaces an established canonical fact in the minds of those fans, or fills a plot-hole. Frequently, these fanonical facts arise due to screen adaptions (esp. [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]).

''When writing a fanon article, be sure to use the [[Template:Fanon|Fanon Template]]''

==Examples of fanon==

===Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"===

*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.
**Actually, Tolkien never described his ages as being linked to the Sun and specifically wrote that the "First Age of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]" began with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], long before the first sunrise. Despite this, many fans believe the 'Ages of the Sun' version is ''correct'' because it has been repeated so often. For example, it is found in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable by Tolkien scholars on the internet such as Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen.

===Homosexuality===

*[[Fingon]] and [[Maedhros]] were lovers.
**This concept, which frequently appears in slash fan fiction (where writers explore homosexual pairings), derives from their close friendship in the book, but would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic. The less detailed nature of the ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' narrative in comparison to ''The Lord of the Rings'' gives fan fiction writers more leeway for developing a Fingon-Maedhros romance and its possible historical significance than exists with respect to a [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]-[[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] or [[Aragorn]]-[[Legolas]] relationship.
*The friendship of Frodo and Sam had homoerotic overtones.
**This concept, which has generated a great deal of slash fan fiction, derives from a modern interpretation of a book written in a different era, and would also have been likely rejected by Tolkien. (In an amusing nod to this idea, when TBS aired the film trilogy, some of their ads implied a homosexual relationship between Frodo and Sam, with the song "Secret Lovers" being played during the commercial.)
*The friendship of Aragorn and Legolas had homoerotic overtones.
**As with Frodo and Sam, this idea has produced a large amount of slash and would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien. However, this case is slightly different in that the idea largely derives from the films rather than the books, since the films emphasize the Aragorn-Legolas friendship more than the books do.

===The Arkenstone was a Silmaril===

*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Erebor]].

===Elrond visits Elros in Númenor===

*Late in the life of [[Elros]] his brother [[Elrond]] visited him in [[Númenor]] and was shocked to see how old he had grown, having chosen the mortality of [[Men]].
**An obscure note published in ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'' implies that Tolkien considered the possibility that Elrond and Elros originally sailed to Númenor together and that Elrond later returned to Middle-earth. However, there is no reference in Tolkien's writings to Elrond visiting Elros in his old age.

===Arwen's brothers are mischevious===

*[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]], the twin sons of Elrond, are jokesters and tricksters.
**This is a common characterization of them in fan fiction and may have been inspired by the depiction of the Weasley twins in J.K. Rowling's ''Harry Potter'' books as well as that of Merry and Pippin in Peter Jackson's films.

===Celebrian was raped by Orcs===

*[[Celebrían]], the mother of [[Arwen]], wife of Elrond and daughter of [[Galadriel]], was raped by the [[Orcs]] who captured her.
**According to this theory, Tolkien intended to convey the fact of the rape obliquely when he wrote that Celebrían received a "poisoned wound". This idea may or may not be contradicted by Tolkien's statement (in the notes to "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]" in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'') that [[Elves]] passed directly to [[Mandos]] (i.e. die) if they were raped, since that statement seems to refer specifically to rape committed by an Elf.

===Aragorn's illegitimate children===

*Aragorn may have become the biological father of [[Boromir]] and/or [[Faramir]] during his time in [[Gondor]] as "[[Thorongil]]".
**According to Appendices A and B of ''The Lord of the Rings'', "Thorongil" departed from Gondor in T.A. 2980; Boromir was born in 2978 and Faramir in 2983. Thus Aragorn was apparently in Gondor at the time of Boromir's birth (but not Faramir's). However, there is no evidence whatsoever in Tolkien's writings for an affair between Aragorn and [[Finduilas]] (the wife of [[Denethor]]). Such an occurrence would contradict Tolkien's devout Catholic viewpoint and the fact that Aragorn was raised among the Elves, for whom adultery was unthinkable.

===Faramir, Raven of Gondor===

*[[Faramir]] was known as "the Raven of [[Gondor]]" due to his status as the guardian of [[Ithilien]].
**This concept apparently derives from Tolkien describing Faramir's ''hair color'' as "raven". The designers of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Two Towers|The Two Towers]]'' film used ravens as a visual motif for Faramir. However, the title "the Raven of Gondor" is never used in Tolkien's writings or in the films.

===Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves===

*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth.
**This concept derives from publicity for the films, but is never stated in the films or the books.

===Legolas's age===

*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in T.A. 87.
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' T.A. 2931. The date of T.A. 87 for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. This is neither confirmed nor denied by Tolkien, who never reveals Legolas' birthdate.

===Legolas is blond===

*Legolas is blond.
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|animated]] and [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].

===Legolas the abused child===

*Thranduil, Legolas' father, was an abusive parent.
**This characterization appears frequently in fan fiction and is proposed as an explanation for Legolas being sent to Rivendell and for his referring to Thranduil as "my Elven lord" rather than "my father". However, ''The Hobbit'' depicts Thranduil in reasonably positive terms, especially given his status as the [[Dwarves]]' antagonist for part of the story.

===Names of the Nazgûl===

*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king of Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female — see below), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman.
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).

===A female Nazgûl===

*One of the nine Nazgûl was female.
**This concept also comes from MERP. Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict this idea with their consistent references to the Nazgûl as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' contradicts this idea by showing all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].

===Elf extras with fan-made names===

*There is an Elven-archer in [[Mirkwood]] named Silindë, described as a tall, blond Sinda. Also, the infamous [[Figwit]] has a Elvish name, Melpomaen.
**''Silindë'' is [[Quenya]] and should not be used to name an Elf in Mirkwood. Nor is it likely that a Sinda would be blond. Silindë is one of the more prominent characters in a large group of Elves in the films whose names are in use on the Internet despite not being established by Tolkien. Some of these Elves (including Silindë) were named in [[Decipher Inc.]]'s [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]; others were simply assigned names by Internet fandom. The Elf named Silindë by Decipher appears at the [[Council of Elrond]] in the film of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', and is played by [[Sam Kelly]]. Figwit (standing for "Frodo Is Great! Who Is That?), played by [[Bret McKenzie]], has no official name in the cast list for ''The Return of the King'', and is credited as "Elf Escort". ''Melpomaen'' is completely fabricated, and does not resemble any of Tolkien's authentic Quenya and Sindarin names.

===Mrs. Thranduil===

*The name of Legolas' mother is known.
**In fact a name was coined for her for MERP, but never by Tolkien.

===The War in the North===

*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]].
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the 2006 computer game ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].

===Aragorn and Arwen's daughters===

*In addition to their son [[Eldarion]], Aragorn and Arwen had as many as four or eight daughters.
**Tolkien's only reference to their children other than Eldarion is a mention of Arwen's "daughters", which could refer to as few as two. Moreover, Elves tended to have few childbirths (the six births of [[Fëanor]] and [[Nerdanel]]'s seven children were unparallelled), and Arwen was [[Half-elven]].

===The shape of Middle-earth===

*The whole continent of [[Middle-earth]] resembles Europe with respective continents for Asia and Africa, while [[Valinor]] is in the place of the Americas and has a crescent shape.
**This derives from ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]'', which tried to composite a map of [[Arda]] based on a drawing by Tolkien (made in the late 1930s or early 40s and published in ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'') and the later well-known maps of [[Beleriand]] and the coasts of Middle-earth. Although this old map generally fits the descriptions of the canonical ''Silmarillion'', it is a matter of debate whether earlier concepts of Tolkien's can be used to fill the gaps of later works such as LotR. The Central American coastline does look somewhat like a crescent, but it is unlikely that Tolkien was influenced by it in choosing the shape for the shores of Valinor.

===Pointed ears===

*Elves and Hobbits have pointed ears.
**This is nowhere stated in ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'' and in ''The Silmarillion'', though Tolkien implied that Hobbit ears were pointed in a letter he wrote later about illustrations, and that Elven ears were pointed in the "[[The Etymologies (Tolkien)|Etymologies]]" published in ''[[The Lost Road]]''. See [[Elves]], [http://www.tolkiensociety.org/faq01.html#pointed_ears Tolkien FAQ].

===Hobbit feet===

*Hobbits have huge feet.
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". The idea that they have very large feet, as depicted in the movies, probably derives from illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]].

===Déagol/Sméagol relationship===

*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This fanon probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]]. [http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]

===Gollum's age===
*Sméagol was born in the year 2430 of the Third Age, found the Ring on his 33rd birthday in 2463, and thus was 589 years old when he died in 3019.
**33 is the age a Shire Hobbit becomes officially an adult. Sméagol "found" the Ring on his birthday. The filmmakers evidently decided that the day Sméagol found the Ring was his 33rd birthday. However: Sméagol was not a Shire Hobbit, but a Stoor, and these had different customs - Tolkien states that the Stoors of Rhovanion received, and did not give gifts on their birthdays (in ''Unfinished Tales'', ''The History of Middle-earth'' and ''Letters''); and T.A. 2463 as the date of the discovery of the Ring is an approximate, not a precise date. Thus, there is no exact indication of Gollum's age in Tolkien's books. [http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html See http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html]

===Runes on Sting===

*The [[Sindarin]] words ''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im'' are engraved on the blade of [[Sting]]. The worlds translate as "Magenas is my name, I am the spider's bane".
**Tolkien describes Sting as a rather plain weapon with a simple leather sheath. Unlike [[Glamdring]] and [[Orcrist]], it bears no runes for [[Elrond]] to translate in ''[[The Hobbit]]''. It first receives a name from [[Bilbo Baggins]] after he uses it against the giant spiders of [[Mirkwood]].
**The origin of the runes appears to be the prop department for [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]].

==Other kinds of fanon==
Due to the nature of the work, much pseudo-scientific speculation is encouraged in order to explain motivations, facts, reactions and generally fill some gaps. This differs from proper fanon since such study does not invent new elements from scratch, but rather attempts to reveal ''how'' canon is. See also [[Tolkienology]].

Fanon can also take the form of personal beliefs held by individuals. In this case, an individual may create an expansive backstory, possibly a fan fiction, which they accept as "true." These have less standing than even the fanon mentioned above, and thus are not included on [[Tolkien Gateway]].

Fanon

2006-12-11T13:47:51Z

Rog: /* Gollum's age */

'''Fanon''' is a term used to refer to "fan [[canon]]" (of which the term is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/portmanteau portmanteau]). It applies to certain "facts" that may have been accepted as a truth by a large number of fans, and thus either replaces an established canonical fact in the minds of those fans, or fills a plot-hole. Frequently, these fanonical facts arise due to screen adaptions (esp. [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]).

''When writing a fanon article, be sure to use the [[Template:Fanon|Fanon Template]]''

==Examples of fanon==

===Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"===

*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.
**Actually, Tolkien never described his ages as being linked to the Sun and specifically wrote that the "First Age of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]" began with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], long before the first sunrise. Despite this, many fans believe the 'Ages of the Sun' version is ''correct'' because it has been repeated so often. For example, it is found in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable by Tolkien scholars on the internet such as Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen.

===Homosexuality===

*[[Fingon]] and [[Maedhros]] were lovers.
**This concept, which frequently appears in slash fan fiction (where writers explore homosexual pairings), derives from their close friendship in the book, but would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic. The less detailed nature of the ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' narrative in comparison to ''The Lord of the Rings'' gives fan fiction writers more leeway for developing a Fingon-Maedhros romance and its possible historical significance than exists with respect to a [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]-[[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] or [[Aragorn]]-[[Legolas]] relationship.
*The friendship of Frodo and Sam had homoerotic overtones.
**This concept, which has generated a great deal of slash fan fiction, derives from a modern interpretation of a book written in a different era, and would also have been likely rejected by Tolkien. (In an amusing nod to this idea, when TBS aired the film trilogy, some of their ads implied a homosexual relationship between Frodo and Sam, with the song "Secret Lovers" being played during the commercial.)
*The friendship of Aragorn and Legolas had homoerotic overtones.
**As with Frodo and Sam, this idea has produced a large amount of slash and would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien. However, this case is slightly different in that the idea largely derives from the films rather than the books, since the films emphasize the Aragorn-Legolas friendship more than the books do.

===The Arkenstone was a Silmaril===

*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Erebor]].

===Elrond visits Elros in Númenor===

*Late in the life of [[Elros]] his brother [[Elrond]] visited him in [[Númenor]] and was shocked to see how old he had grown, having chosen the mortality of [[Men]].
**An obscure note published in ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'' implies that Tolkien considered the possibility that Elrond and Elros originally sailed to Númenor together and that Elrond later returned to Middle-earth. However, there is no reference in Tolkien's writings to Elrond visiting Elros in his old age.

===Arwen's brothers are mischevious===

*[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]], the twin sons of Elrond, are jokesters and tricksters.
**This is a common characterization of them in fan fiction and may have been inspired by the depiction of the Weasley twins in J.K. Rowling's ''Harry Potter'' books as well as that of Merry and Pippin in Peter Jackson's films.

===Celebrian was raped by Orcs===

*[[Celebrían]], the mother of [[Arwen]], wife of Elrond and daughter of [[Galadriel]], was raped by the [[Orcs]] who captured her.
**According to this theory, Tolkien intended to convey the fact of the rape obliquely when he wrote that Celebrían received a "poisoned wound". This idea may or may not be contradicted by Tolkien's statement (in the notes to "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]" in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'') that [[Elves]] passed directly to [[Mandos]] (i.e. die) if they were raped, since that statement seems to refer specifically to rape committed by an Elf.

===Aragorn's illegitimate children===

*Aragorn may have become the biological father of [[Boromir]] and/or [[Faramir]] during his time in [[Gondor]] as "[[Thorongil]]".
**According to Appendices A and B of ''The Lord of the Rings'', "Thorongil" departed from Gondor in T.A. 2980; Boromir was born in 2978 and Faramir in 2983. Thus Aragorn was apparently in Gondor at the time of Boromir's birth (but not Faramir's). However, there is no evidence whatsoever in Tolkien's writings for an affair between Aragorn and [[Finduilas]] (the wife of [[Denethor]]). Such an occurrence would contradict Tolkien's devout Catholic viewpoint and the fact that Aragorn was raised among the Elves, for whom adultery was unthinkable.

===Faramir, Raven of Gondor===

*[[Faramir]] was known as "the Raven of [[Gondor]]" due to his status as the guardian of [[Ithilien]].
**This concept apparently derives from Tolkien describing Faramir's ''hair color'' as "raven". The designers of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Two Towers|The Two Towers]]'' film used ravens as a visual motif for Faramir. However, the title "the Raven of Gondor" is never used in Tolkien's writings or in the films.

===Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves===

*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth.
**This concept derives from publicity for the films, but is never stated in the films or the books.

===Legolas is 2931===

*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in T.A. 87.
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' T.A. 2931. The date of T.A. 87 for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. This is neither confirmed nor denied by Tolkien, who never reveals Legolas' birthdate.

===Legolas is blond===

*Legolas is blond.
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|animated]] and [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].

===Legolas the abused child===

*Thranduil, Legolas' father, was an abusive parent.
**This characterization appears frequently in fan fiction and is proposed as an explanation for Legolas being sent to Rivendell and for his referring to Thranduil as "my Elven lord" rather than "my father". However, ''The Hobbit'' depicts Thranduil in reasonably positive terms, especially given his status as the [[Dwarves]]' antagonist for part of the story.

===Names of the Nazgûl===

*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king of Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female — see below), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman.
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).

===A female Nazgûl===

*One of the nine Nazgûl was female.
**This concept also comes from MERP. Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict this idea with their consistent references to the Nazgûl as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' contradicts this idea by showing all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].

===Elf extras with fan-made names===

*There is an Elven-archer in [[Mirkwood]] named Silindë, described as a tall, blond Sinda. Also, the infamous [[Figwit]] has a Elvish name, Melpomaen.
**''Silindë'' is [[Quenya]] and should not be used to name an Elf in Mirkwood. Nor is it likely that a Sinda would be blond. Silindë is one of the more prominent characters in a large group of Elves in the films whose names are in use on the Internet despite not being established by Tolkien. Some of these Elves (including Silindë) were named in [[Decipher Inc.]]'s [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]; others were simply assigned names by Internet fandom. The Elf named Silindë by Decipher appears at the [[Council of Elrond]] in the film of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', and is played by [[Sam Kelly]]. Figwit (standing for "Frodo Is Great! Who Is That?), played by [[Bret McKenzie]], has no official name in the cast list for ''The Return of the King'', and is credited as "Elf Escort". ''Melpomaen'' is completely fabricated, and does not resemble any of Tolkien's authentic Quenya and Sindarin names.

===Mrs. Thranduil===

*The name of Legolas' mother is known.
**In fact a name was coined for her for MERP, but never by Tolkien.

===The War in the North===

*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]].
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the 2006 computer game ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].

===Aragorn and Arwen's daughters===

*In addition to their son [[Eldarion]], Aragorn and Arwen had as many as four or eight daughters.
**Tolkien's only reference to their children other than Eldarion is a mention of Arwen's "daughters", which could refer to as few as two. Moreover, Elves tended to have few childbirths (the six births of [[Fëanor]] and [[Nerdanel]]'s seven children were unparallelled), and Arwen was [[Half-elven]].

===The shape of Middle-earth===

*The whole continent of [[Middle-earth]] resembles Europe with respective continents for Asia and Africa, while [[Valinor]] is in the place of the Americas and has a crescent shape.
**This derives from ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]'', which tried to composite a map of [[Arda]] based on a drawing by Tolkien (made in the late 1930s or early 40s and published in ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'') and the later well-known maps of [[Beleriand]] and the coasts of Middle-earth. Although this old map generally fits the descriptions of the canonical ''Silmarillion'', it is a matter of debate whether earlier concepts of Tolkien's can be used to fill the gaps of later works such as LotR. The Central American coastline does look somewhat like a crescent, but it is unlikely that Tolkien was influenced by it in choosing the shape for the shores of Valinor.

===Pointed ears===

*Elves and Hobbits have pointed ears.
**This is nowhere stated in ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'' and in ''The Silmarillion'', though Tolkien implied that Hobbit ears were pointed in a letter he wrote later about illustrations, and that Elven ears were pointed in the "[[The Etymologies (Tolkien)|Etymologies]]" published in ''[[The Lost Road]]''. See [[Elves]], [http://www.tolkiensociety.org/faq01.html#pointed_ears Tolkien FAQ].

===Hobbit feet===

*Hobbits have huge feet.
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". The idea that they have very large feet, as depicted in the movies, probably derives from illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]].

===Déagol/Sméagol relationship===

*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This fanon probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]]. [http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]

===Gollum's age===
*Sméagol was born in the year 2430 of the Third Age, found the Ring on his 33rd birthday in 2463, and thus was 589 years old when he died in 3019.
**33 is the age a Shire Hobbit becomes officially an adult. Sméagol "found" the Ring on his birthday. The filmmakers evidently decided that the day Sméagol found the Ring was his 33rd birthday. However: Sméagol was not a Shire Hobbit, but a Stoor, and these had different customs - Tolkien states that the Stoors of Rhovanion received, and did not give gifts on their birthdays (in ''Unfinished Tales'', ''The History of Middle-earth'' and ''Letters''); and T.A. 2463 as the date of the discovery of the Ring is an approximate, not a precise date. Thus, there is no exact indication of Gollum's age in Tolkien's books. [http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html See http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html]

===Runes on Sting===

*The [[Sindarin]] words ''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im'' are engraved on the blade of [[Sting]]. The worlds translate as "Magenas is my name, I am the spider's bane".
**Tolkien describes Sting as a rather plain weapon with a simple leather sheath. Unlike [[Glamdring]] and [[Orcrist]], it bears no runes for [[Elrond]] to translate in ''[[The Hobbit]]''. It first receives a name from [[Bilbo Baggins]] after he uses it against the giant spiders of [[Mirkwood]].
**The origin of the runes appears to be the prop department for [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]].

==Other kinds of fanon==
Due to the nature of the work, much pseudo-scientific speculation is encouraged in order to explain motivations, facts, reactions and generally fill some gaps. This differs from proper fanon since such study does not invent new elements from scratch, but rather attempts to reveal ''how'' canon is. See also [[Tolkienology]].

Fanon can also take the form of personal beliefs held by individuals. In this case, an individual may create an expansive backstory, possibly a fan fiction, which they accept as "true." These have less standing than even the fanon mentioned above, and thus are not included on [[Tolkien Gateway]].

Fanon

2006-12-11T13:46:25Z

Rog: /* Gollum's age */

'''Fanon''' is a term used to refer to "fan [[canon]]" (of which the term is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/portmanteau portmanteau]). It applies to certain "facts" that may have been accepted as a truth by a large number of fans, and thus either replaces an established canonical fact in the minds of those fans, or fills a plot-hole. Frequently, these fanonical facts arise due to screen adaptions (esp. [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]).

''When writing a fanon article, be sure to use the [[Template:Fanon|Fanon Template]]''

==Examples of fanon==

===Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"===

*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.
**Actually, Tolkien never described his ages as being linked to the Sun and specifically wrote that the "First Age of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]" began with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], long before the first sunrise. Despite this, many fans believe the 'Ages of the Sun' version is ''correct'' because it has been repeated so often. For example, it is found in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable by Tolkien scholars on the internet such as Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen.

===Homosexuality===

*[[Fingon]] and [[Maedhros]] were lovers.
**This concept, which frequently appears in slash fan fiction (where writers explore homosexual pairings), derives from their close friendship in the book, but would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic. The less detailed nature of the ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' narrative in comparison to ''The Lord of the Rings'' gives fan fiction writers more leeway for developing a Fingon-Maedhros romance and its possible historical significance than exists with respect to a [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]-[[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] or [[Aragorn]]-[[Legolas]] relationship.
*The friendship of Frodo and Sam had homoerotic overtones.
**This concept, which has generated a great deal of slash fan fiction, derives from a modern interpretation of a book written in a different era, and would also have been likely rejected by Tolkien. (In an amusing nod to this idea, when TBS aired the film trilogy, some of their ads implied a homosexual relationship between Frodo and Sam, with the song "Secret Lovers" being played during the commercial.)
*The friendship of Aragorn and Legolas had homoerotic overtones.
**As with Frodo and Sam, this idea has produced a large amount of slash and would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien. However, this case is slightly different in that the idea largely derives from the films rather than the books, since the films emphasize the Aragorn-Legolas friendship more than the books do.

===The Arkenstone was a Silmaril===

*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Erebor]].

===Elrond visits Elros in Númenor===

*Late in the life of [[Elros]] his brother [[Elrond]] visited him in [[Númenor]] and was shocked to see how old he had grown, having chosen the mortality of [[Men]].
**An obscure note published in ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'' implies that Tolkien considered the possibility that Elrond and Elros originally sailed to Númenor together and that Elrond later returned to Middle-earth. However, there is no reference in Tolkien's writings to Elrond visiting Elros in his old age.

===Arwen's brothers are mischevious===

*[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]], the twin sons of Elrond, are jokesters and tricksters.
**This is a common characterization of them in fan fiction and may have been inspired by the depiction of the Weasley twins in J.K. Rowling's ''Harry Potter'' books as well as that of Merry and Pippin in Peter Jackson's films.

===Celebrian was raped by Orcs===

*[[Celebrían]], the mother of [[Arwen]], wife of Elrond and daughter of [[Galadriel]], was raped by the [[Orcs]] who captured her.
**According to this theory, Tolkien intended to convey the fact of the rape obliquely when he wrote that Celebrían received a "poisoned wound". This idea may or may not be contradicted by Tolkien's statement (in the notes to "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]" in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'') that [[Elves]] passed directly to [[Mandos]] (i.e. die) if they were raped, since that statement seems to refer specifically to rape committed by an Elf.

===Aragorn's illegitimate children===

*Aragorn may have become the biological father of [[Boromir]] and/or [[Faramir]] during his time in [[Gondor]] as "[[Thorongil]]".
**According to Appendices A and B of ''The Lord of the Rings'', "Thorongil" departed from Gondor in T.A. 2980; Boromir was born in 2978 and Faramir in 2983. Thus Aragorn was apparently in Gondor at the time of Boromir's birth (but not Faramir's). However, there is no evidence whatsoever in Tolkien's writings for an affair between Aragorn and [[Finduilas]] (the wife of [[Denethor]]). Such an occurrence would contradict Tolkien's devout Catholic viewpoint and the fact that Aragorn was raised among the Elves, for whom adultery was unthinkable.

===Faramir, Raven of Gondor===

*[[Faramir]] was known as "the Raven of [[Gondor]]" due to his status as the guardian of [[Ithilien]].
**This concept apparently derives from Tolkien describing Faramir's ''hair color'' as "raven". The designers of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Two Towers|The Two Towers]]'' film used ravens as a visual motif for Faramir. However, the title "the Raven of Gondor" is never used in Tolkien's writings or in the films.

===Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves===

*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth.
**This concept derives from publicity for the films, but is never stated in the films or the books.

===Legolas is 2931===

*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in T.A. 87.
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' T.A. 2931. The date of T.A. 87 for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. This is neither confirmed nor denied by Tolkien, who never reveals Legolas' birthdate.

===Legolas is blond===

*Legolas is blond.
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|animated]] and [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].

===Legolas the abused child===

*Thranduil, Legolas' father, was an abusive parent.
**This characterization appears frequently in fan fiction and is proposed as an explanation for Legolas being sent to Rivendell and for his referring to Thranduil as "my Elven lord" rather than "my father". However, ''The Hobbit'' depicts Thranduil in reasonably positive terms, especially given his status as the [[Dwarves]]' antagonist for part of the story.

===Names of the Nazgûl===

*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king of Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female — see below), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman.
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).

===A female Nazgûl===

*One of the nine Nazgûl was female.
**This concept also comes from MERP. Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict this idea with their consistent references to the Nazgûl as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' contradicts this idea by showing all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].

===Elf extras with fan-made names===

*There is an Elven-archer in [[Mirkwood]] named Silindë, described as a tall, blond Sinda. Also, the infamous [[Figwit]] has a Elvish name, Melpomaen.
**''Silindë'' is [[Quenya]] and should not be used to name an Elf in Mirkwood. Nor is it likely that a Sinda would be blond. Silindë is one of the more prominent characters in a large group of Elves in the films whose names are in use on the Internet despite not being established by Tolkien. Some of these Elves (including Silindë) were named in [[Decipher Inc.]]'s [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]; others were simply assigned names by Internet fandom. The Elf named Silindë by Decipher appears at the [[Council of Elrond]] in the film of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', and is played by [[Sam Kelly]]. Figwit (standing for "Frodo Is Great! Who Is That?), played by [[Bret McKenzie]], has no official name in the cast list for ''The Return of the King'', and is credited as "Elf Escort". ''Melpomaen'' is completely fabricated, and does not resemble any of Tolkien's authentic Quenya and Sindarin names.

===Mrs. Thranduil===

*The name of Legolas' mother is known.
**In fact a name was coined for her for MERP, but never by Tolkien.

===The War in the North===

*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]].
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the 2006 computer game ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].

===Aragorn and Arwen's daughters===

*In addition to their son [[Eldarion]], Aragorn and Arwen had as many as four or eight daughters.
**Tolkien's only reference to their children other than Eldarion is a mention of Arwen's "daughters", which could refer to as few as two. Moreover, Elves tended to have few childbirths (the six births of [[Fëanor]] and [[Nerdanel]]'s seven children were unparallelled), and Arwen was [[Half-elven]].

===The shape of Middle-earth===

*The whole continent of [[Middle-earth]] resembles Europe with respective continents for Asia and Africa, while [[Valinor]] is in the place of the Americas and has a crescent shape.
**This derives from ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]'', which tried to composite a map of [[Arda]] based on a drawing by Tolkien (made in the late 1930s or early 40s and published in ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'') and the later well-known maps of [[Beleriand]] and the coasts of Middle-earth. Although this old map generally fits the descriptions of the canonical ''Silmarillion'', it is a matter of debate whether earlier concepts of Tolkien's can be used to fill the gaps of later works such as LotR. The Central American coastline does look somewhat like a crescent, but it is unlikely that Tolkien was influenced by it in choosing the shape for the shores of Valinor.

===Pointed ears===

*Elves and Hobbits have pointed ears.
**This is nowhere stated in ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'' and in ''The Silmarillion'', though Tolkien implied that Hobbit ears were pointed in a letter he wrote later about illustrations, and that Elven ears were pointed in the "[[The Etymologies (Tolkien)|Etymologies]]" published in ''[[The Lost Road]]''. See [[Elves]], [http://www.tolkiensociety.org/faq01.html#pointed_ears Tolkien FAQ].

===Hobbit feet===

*Hobbits have huge feet.
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". The idea that they have very large feet, as depicted in the movies, probably derives from illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]].

===Déagol/Sméagol relationship===

*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This fanon probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]]. [http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]

===Gollum's age===
*Sméagol was born in the year 2430 of the Third Age, found the Ring on his 33rd birthday in 2463, and thus was 589 years old when he died in 3019.
**33 is the age a Shire Hobbit becomes officially an adult. Sméagol "found" the Ring on his birthday. The filmmakers evidently decided that the day Sméagol found the Ring was his 33rd birthday. However: Sméagol was not a Shire Hobbit, but a Stoor; Tolkien states that the Stoors of Rhovanion received, and did not give gifts on their birthdays (in ''Unfinished Tales'', ''The History of Middle-earth'' and ''Letters''); and T.A. 2463 as the date of the discovery of the Ring is an approximate, not a precise date. Thus, there is no exact indication of Gollum's age in Tolkien's books. [http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html See http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html]

===Runes on Sting===

*The [[Sindarin]] words ''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im'' are engraved on the blade of [[Sting]]. The worlds translate as "Magenas is my name, I am the spider's bane".
**Tolkien describes Sting as a rather plain weapon with a simple leather sheath. Unlike [[Glamdring]] and [[Orcrist]], it bears no runes for [[Elrond]] to translate in ''[[The Hobbit]]''. It first receives a name from [[Bilbo Baggins]] after he uses it against the giant spiders of [[Mirkwood]].
**The origin of the runes appears to be the prop department for [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]].

==Other kinds of fanon==
Due to the nature of the work, much pseudo-scientific speculation is encouraged in order to explain motivations, facts, reactions and generally fill some gaps. This differs from proper fanon since such study does not invent new elements from scratch, but rather attempts to reveal ''how'' canon is. See also [[Tolkienology]].

Fanon can also take the form of personal beliefs held by individuals. In this case, an individual may create an expansive backstory, possibly a fan fiction, which they accept as "true." These have less standing than even the fanon mentioned above, and thus are not included on [[Tolkien Gateway]].

Fanon

2006-12-11T13:44:42Z

Rog: Debunking myth about Gollum's age - borrowed from Wikipedia

'''Fanon''' is a term used to refer to "fan [[canon]]" (of which the term is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/portmanteau portmanteau]). It applies to certain "facts" that may have been accepted as a truth by a large number of fans, and thus either replaces an established canonical fact in the minds of those fans, or fills a plot-hole. Frequently, these fanonical facts arise due to screen adaptions (esp. [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]).

''When writing a fanon article, be sure to use the [[Template:Fanon|Fanon Template]]''

==Examples of fanon==

===Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"===

*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.
**Actually, Tolkien never described his ages as being linked to the Sun and specifically wrote that the "First Age of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]" began with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], long before the first sunrise. Despite this, many fans believe the 'Ages of the Sun' version is ''correct'' because it has been repeated so often. For example, it is found in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable by Tolkien scholars on the internet such as Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen.

===Homosexuality===

*[[Fingon]] and [[Maedhros]] were lovers.
**This concept, which frequently appears in slash fan fiction (where writers explore homosexual pairings), derives from their close friendship in the book, but would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic. The less detailed nature of the ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' narrative in comparison to ''The Lord of the Rings'' gives fan fiction writers more leeway for developing a Fingon-Maedhros romance and its possible historical significance than exists with respect to a [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]-[[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] or [[Aragorn]]-[[Legolas]] relationship.
*The friendship of Frodo and Sam had homoerotic overtones.
**This concept, which has generated a great deal of slash fan fiction, derives from a modern interpretation of a book written in a different era, and would also have been likely rejected by Tolkien. (In an amusing nod to this idea, when TBS aired the film trilogy, some of their ads implied a homosexual relationship between Frodo and Sam, with the song "Secret Lovers" being played during the commercial.)
*The friendship of Aragorn and Legolas had homoerotic overtones.
**As with Frodo and Sam, this idea has produced a large amount of slash and would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien. However, this case is slightly different in that the idea largely derives from the films rather than the books, since the films emphasize the Aragorn-Legolas friendship more than the books do.

===The Arkenstone was a Silmaril===

*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Erebor]].

===Elrond visits Elros in Númenor===

*Late in the life of [[Elros]] his brother [[Elrond]] visited him in [[Númenor]] and was shocked to see how old he had grown, having chosen the mortality of [[Men]].
**An obscure note published in ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'' implies that Tolkien considered the possibility that Elrond and Elros originally sailed to Númenor together and that Elrond later returned to Middle-earth. However, there is no reference in Tolkien's writings to Elrond visiting Elros in his old age.

===Arwen's brothers are mischevious===

*[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]], the twin sons of Elrond, are jokesters and tricksters.
**This is a common characterization of them in fan fiction and may have been inspired by the depiction of the Weasley twins in J.K. Rowling's ''Harry Potter'' books as well as that of Merry and Pippin in Peter Jackson's films.

===Celebrian was raped by Orcs===

*[[Celebrían]], the mother of [[Arwen]], wife of Elrond and daughter of [[Galadriel]], was raped by the [[Orcs]] who captured her.
**According to this theory, Tolkien intended to convey the fact of the rape obliquely when he wrote that Celebrían received a "poisoned wound". This idea may or may not be contradicted by Tolkien's statement (in the notes to "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]" in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'') that [[Elves]] passed directly to [[Mandos]] (i.e. die) if they were raped, since that statement seems to refer specifically to rape committed by an Elf.

===Aragorn's illegitimate children===

*Aragorn may have become the biological father of [[Boromir]] and/or [[Faramir]] during his time in [[Gondor]] as "[[Thorongil]]".
**According to Appendices A and B of ''The Lord of the Rings'', "Thorongil" departed from Gondor in T.A. 2980; Boromir was born in 2978 and Faramir in 2983. Thus Aragorn was apparently in Gondor at the time of Boromir's birth (but not Faramir's). However, there is no evidence whatsoever in Tolkien's writings for an affair between Aragorn and [[Finduilas]] (the wife of [[Denethor]]). Such an occurrence would contradict Tolkien's devout Catholic viewpoint and the fact that Aragorn was raised among the Elves, for whom adultery was unthinkable.

===Faramir, Raven of Gondor===

*[[Faramir]] was known as "the Raven of [[Gondor]]" due to his status as the guardian of [[Ithilien]].
**This concept apparently derives from Tolkien describing Faramir's ''hair color'' as "raven". The designers of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Two Towers|The Two Towers]]'' film used ravens as a visual motif for Faramir. However, the title "the Raven of Gondor" is never used in Tolkien's writings or in the films.

===Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves===

*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth.
**This concept derives from publicity for the films, but is never stated in the films or the books.

===Legolas is 2931===

*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in T.A. 87.
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' T.A. 2931. The date of T.A. 87 for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. This is neither confirmed nor denied by Tolkien, who never reveals Legolas' birthdate.

===Legolas is blond===

*Legolas is blond.
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|animated]] and [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].

===Legolas the abused child===

*Thranduil, Legolas' father, was an abusive parent.
**This characterization appears frequently in fan fiction and is proposed as an explanation for Legolas being sent to Rivendell and for his referring to Thranduil as "my Elven lord" rather than "my father". However, ''The Hobbit'' depicts Thranduil in reasonably positive terms, especially given his status as the [[Dwarves]]' antagonist for part of the story.

===Names of the Nazgûl===

*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king of Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female — see below), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman.
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).

===A female Nazgûl===

*One of the nine Nazgûl was female.
**This concept also comes from MERP. Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict this idea with their consistent references to the Nazgûl as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' contradicts this idea by showing all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].

===Elf extras with fan-made names===

*There is an Elven-archer in [[Mirkwood]] named Silindë, described as a tall, blond Sinda. Also, the infamous [[Figwit]] has a Elvish name, Melpomaen.
**''Silindë'' is [[Quenya]] and should not be used to name an Elf in Mirkwood. Nor is it likely that a Sinda would be blond. Silindë is one of the more prominent characters in a large group of Elves in the films whose names are in use on the Internet despite not being established by Tolkien. Some of these Elves (including Silindë) were named in [[Decipher Inc.]]'s [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]; others were simply assigned names by Internet fandom. The Elf named Silindë by Decipher appears at the [[Council of Elrond]] in the film of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', and is played by [[Sam Kelly]]. Figwit (standing for "Frodo Is Great! Who Is That?), played by [[Bret McKenzie]], has no official name in the cast list for ''The Return of the King'', and is credited as "Elf Escort". ''Melpomaen'' is completely fabricated, and does not resemble any of Tolkien's authentic Quenya and Sindarin names.

===Mrs. Thranduil===

*The name of Legolas' mother is known.
**In fact a name was coined for her for MERP, but never by Tolkien.

===The War in the North===

*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]].
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the 2006 computer game ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].

===Aragorn and Arwen's daughters===

*In addition to their son [[Eldarion]], Aragorn and Arwen had as many as four or eight daughters.
**Tolkien's only reference to their children other than Eldarion is a mention of Arwen's "daughters", which could refer to as few as two. Moreover, Elves tended to have few childbirths (the six births of [[Fëanor]] and [[Nerdanel]]'s seven children were unparallelled), and Arwen was [[Half-elven]].

===The shape of Middle-earth===

*The whole continent of [[Middle-earth]] resembles Europe with respective continents for Asia and Africa, while [[Valinor]] is in the place of the Americas and has a crescent shape.
**This derives from ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]'', which tried to composite a map of [[Arda]] based on a drawing by Tolkien (made in the late 1930s or early 40s and published in ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'') and the later well-known maps of [[Beleriand]] and the coasts of Middle-earth. Although this old map generally fits the descriptions of the canonical ''Silmarillion'', it is a matter of debate whether earlier concepts of Tolkien's can be used to fill the gaps of later works such as LotR. The Central American coastline does look somewhat like a crescent, but it is unlikely that Tolkien was influenced by it in choosing the shape for the shores of Valinor.

===Pointed ears===

*Elves and Hobbits have pointed ears.
**This is nowhere stated in ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'' and in ''The Silmarillion'', though Tolkien implied that Hobbit ears were pointed in a letter he wrote later about illustrations, and that Elven ears were pointed in the "[[The Etymologies (Tolkien)|Etymologies]]" published in ''[[The Lost Road]]''. See [[Elves]], [http://www.tolkiensociety.org/faq01.html#pointed_ears Tolkien FAQ].

===Hobbit feet===

*Hobbits have huge feet.
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". The idea that they have very large feet, as depicted in the movies, probably derives from illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]].

===Déagol/Sméagol relationship===

*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This fanon probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]]. [http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]

===Gollum's age===
*Sméagol was born in the year 2430 of the Third Age, found the Ring on his 33rd birthday in 2463, and thus was 589 years old when he died in 3019.
**33 is the age a Shire Hobbit becomes officially an adult. Sméagol "found" the Ring on his birthday. The filmmakers evidently decided that the day Sméagol found the Ring was his 33rd birthday. However, Sméagol was not a Shire Hobbit, but a Stoor, b) Tolkien states that the Stoors of Rhovanion received, and did not give gifts on their birthdays (in ''Unfinished Tales'', ''The History of Middle-earth'' and ''Letters''), and T.A. 2463 as the date of the discovery of the Ring is an approximate, not a precise date. Thus there is no exact indication of Gollum's age. [http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html See http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/smeagol.html]

===Runes on Sting===

*The [[Sindarin]] words ''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im'' are engraved on the blade of [[Sting]]. The worlds translate as "Magenas is my name, I am the spider's bane".
**Tolkien describes Sting as a rather plain weapon with a simple leather sheath. Unlike [[Glamdring]] and [[Orcrist]], it bears no runes for [[Elrond]] to translate in ''[[The Hobbit]]''. It first receives a name from [[Bilbo Baggins]] after he uses it against the giant spiders of [[Mirkwood]].
**The origin of the runes appears to be the prop department for [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]].

==Other kinds of fanon==
Due to the nature of the work, much pseudo-scientific speculation is encouraged in order to explain motivations, facts, reactions and generally fill some gaps. This differs from proper fanon since such study does not invent new elements from scratch, but rather attempts to reveal ''how'' canon is. See also [[Tolkienology]].

Fanon can also take the form of personal beliefs held by individuals. In this case, an individual may create an expansive backstory, possibly a fan fiction, which they accept as "true." These have less standing than even the fanon mentioned above, and thus are not included on [[Tolkien Gateway]].

Talk:Arwen

2006-11-20T21:07:57Z

Rog:

===Portrayal in Adaptations===
The point is made in here that Arwen turns back for Rivendell after seeing a vision of her future child, but that this is unlikely to have been a major surprise to her. I always took this as a reference to the idea that elves had fewer children than humans, so it was not automatic that Arwen should bear a child at all in her lifetime. I know that LOTR and Silmarillion mention the relative fertility somewhere, can't remember where right now!

:See the following quote:

{{quote|Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children; and also that their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life, unless strange and hard fates befell them. But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding. . .|[[Morgoth's Ring]]|}}

===General Griping===
My problem with Arwen's role in the movie was not that she replaced Glorfindel, which was a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but that she stole screentime from other characters who were more important to the story. Instead of Frodo making a brave-but-futile stand against the Black Riders at the Ford of Bruinen, he just becomes baggage for Arwen. Her dream-sequence appearance in ''The Two Towers'' is completely contrived, and the time could have been better spent developing the Ents or including the final confrontation with Saruman. Her scenes in ''The Return of the King'' were not '''as''' bad, but her best role would have been delivering Anduril instead of the contrived "Arwen will die if the ring isn't destroyed" plot thread. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 15:10, 6 November 2006 (EST)

:Be glad she didn't go to Helm's Deep as was originally planned! But I agree with you on most of your points. It would have been, in my opinion, good if there were scenes of her weaving the banner of Elendil, and then the triumphant unfurling of it. The significance of this event was either overlooked or rejected by PJ. Then again, perhaps it would be considered too "anti-feminist" for this modern generation. . . --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 17:53, 6 November 2006 (EST)

Indeed, she could have defied Elrond by having the sword reforged herself and taking it to Aragorn, which would have tied her into the story much more neatly. Of course, that would create the problem of her and Eowyn having a chance to meet, but I'm not sure that would work so badly, as it would handily explain Eowyn's reckless desire to go get killed in battle. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 11:17, 7 November 2006 (EST)

:This would be at the further expense of Elrond's character. I disagree with the whole sword-comes-late idea anyway, though it is not as big a change as some others. As I said, I think if PJ had stuck to the book (and the Appendixes) he would have had plenty of material. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 12:45, 7 November 2006 (EST)

::Do people really accuse such books as LotR as sexist for lack of female characters? I've heard of the ridiculous charges of racism (because of the violation of political correctness), but does this charge of sexism really happen? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 07:56, 16 November 2006 (EST)

:::I certainly don't hear charges of sexism aimed at Tolkien. He was actually quite liberal for someone of his generation. I haven't heard such charges aimed at PJ, either, but of course he pushed Arwen and Galadriel into the story in every film, which would probably deflect that sort of criticism. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 10:23, 16 November 2006 (EST)

:::Really, the lack of female characters, not only in LotR but in just about all of Tolkien's writings, is rather noticeable. They aren't generally treated in a sexist fashion when they are represented (just look at Éowyn and Haleth! Especially in the 1950's, such female characters were rare), but often they're just nearly absent from the stories. Now, this probably has something to do with Tolkien's "historical" feel; mentions of women in our own histories are sadly few. —[[User:Tar-Telperien|Tar-Telperien]] 15:28, 16 November 2006 (EST)
::::Lack of ''named'' female characters, rather. [[User:Rog|Rog]] 16:07, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Talk:The Hobbit (film series)

2006-11-20T21:06:32Z

Rog:

Dudes, this is awesome news! Dwarf lord

[[Hyarion]] wrote: "Unfortunately due to disputes between the distributing rights and the filming rights progress is slow." Is this correctly worded? It reads rather odd! --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 13:42, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

:It sounds better if we add a few commas in there: "Unfortunately, due to disputes between the distributing rights and the filming rights, progress is slow." --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:03, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

PJ not doing The Hobbit? At least we'll be spared of his revisionism. Sorry, Ringers! [[User:Rog|Rog]] 16:06, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Talk:John Boorman's The Lord of the Rings

2006-11-20T21:03:53Z

Rog:

This thing sounds even more horrendous than what PJ did. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:09, 16 November 2006 (EST)

:Click the link for the onering forum discussion. Go to the third page of the thread. It's down near the bottom. A post with a thorough recounting. You'll be amazed. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 14:51, 16 November 2006 (EST)

Reading... the very ideas being thrown out there are just... so... I'm not sure if there's a word... Abysmal? Horrifying? Demeaning? Evil? Abusive?

Ick! --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 16:12, 16 November 2006 (EST)

:I actually thought it was hilarious. I mean, I'm certainly glad the project never saw the light of day, but it's so ridiculous it parodies itself. —[[User:Tar-Telperien|Tar-Telperien]] 19:17, 16 November 2006 (EST)

::It's easy to look back and laugh, now, but -- knowing how much grief some of us give PJ today -- can you imagine the screaming if this had actually been made? --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 09:22, 20 November 2006 (EST)

:::"how much grief PJ gave some of ''us''", rather.. [[User:Rog|Rog]] 16:03, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Arwen

2006-11-16T07:59:52Z

Rog: /* Portrayal in Adaptations */ copied and modified from Wikipedia article

[[Image:John Howe - Arwen.jpg|thumb|left|''Arwen'' by [[John Howe]]]]
'''Arwen Undómiel''' ([[Third Age]] 241 – [[Fourth Age]] 121, aged 2,901 years), often called '''Arwen Evenstar''', was the betrothed of [[Aragorn II]] in [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien's]] ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. She is the daughter of [[Elrond]] and [[Celebrían]] (and therefore grand-daughter of [[Galadriel]]). She rejects her [[Elves|Elven]] immortality (which she had the ability to do, since she was a [[half-elven|half-elf]], thus having the choice to be counted as an elf or a man) to marry Aragorn and die with him.

== History ==
{{Pronounce|Arwen Undomiel.mp3|Ardamir}}
The romance between Aragorn and Arwen is reminiscent of that between the Man [[Beren Erchamion|Beren]] and the Elf Lúthien, but as with many other tales of the Third Age, theirs is considered to be a pale copy of the deeds of earlier ages (Lúthien, for example, once defeated [[Sauron]] to rescue Beren). Still, few other marriages between Man and Elf are recorded in the annals of Tolkien.

A very young Aragorn encountered Arwen for the first time at [[Rivendell]], where he had been living; she had been staying with her grandmother in [[Lórien in Middle-earth|Lórien]]. He fell in love with her when he first saw her, but it was not until they met many years later in Lórien that she fell in love with him.

Arwen's first appearance in ''The Lord of the Rings'' is at Rivendell, when the [[Hobbit|Hobbits]] arrive there, and Aragorn is seen with her at one point—the first hint of their relationship. Later, when the [[Fellowship of the Ring|Fellowship]] come to [[Lórien in Middle-earth|Lothlórien]], he remembers their earlier meeting.

She enters the story again when, before taking to the [[Paths of the Dead]], Aragorn is met by a group consisting of [[Dúnedain]], his people, from the North, and Arwen's brothers, [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]]. They bring to him a banner on black cloth: a gift made by the hands of Arwen, and a sign that encourages him to take the difficult path. When it is unfurled at the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]] to reveal the emblem of [[Elendil]] in ''[[mithril]]'', gems, and gold, it is the first triumphant announcement of the King's return.

Arwen is mostly a minor character in Tolkien's ''Lord of the Rings'', but she is nevertheless described in detail in the Appendices after the third volume, ''[[The Return of the King]]''. She does, however, play a role in the plot which is disproportionate to the number of scenes in which she appears. When [[Éowyn]] falls in love with Aragorn it is his fidelity to Arwen that forbids him from reciprocating, thereby motivating Éowyn's subsequent actions during the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]] which have major repercussions for the defence of Middle-earth. Arwen continually serves as inspiration and motivation for Aragorn, who must become King before he may wed her—not an insignificant task, considering the many long years he devotes to this cause.

Arwen was actually a very distant relative of Aragorn, being his first cousin sixty-three times removed. By their marriages the long-sundered lines of the [[Half-elven]] were joined. Their union also served to unite and preserve the bloodlines of the Three Kings of the High Elves ([[Ingwë]], [[Finwë]], and the brothers [[Olwë]] and [[Elwë]]) as well as the only line with [[Maiar]] blood through her Arwen's great-great-great grandmother, [[Melian]].

Arwen gave up her life in 121 of the Fourth Age, at [[Cerin Amroth]] in Lórien, after the death of Aragorn.

== Etymology ==
''Arwen'' means "Noble Maiden" in [[Sindarin]] (from ''[[ar]]-'' = "noble" and ''[[gwenn]]'' = "maiden"). Her [[epessë]], "'''Undómiel'''", means "Evenstar". She was held to be the reappearance in likeness of her ancestress [[Lúthien Tinúviel]], most fair of all the Elves. Arwen's [[epessë]] also relates to Lúthien: ''Tinúviel'' translated to [[Quenya]] would be ''Tindómiel'', which means "Nightingale," and shares the ''-miel'' evening / nighttime suffix.

== Portrayal in Adaptations ==
[[Image:Arwen from Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings.jpg|thumb|[[Liv Tyler]] as Arwen in [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]]]
Arwen does not appear in [[Ralph Bakshi]]'s 1978 adaptation of ''[[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|The Lord of the Rings]]'', nor in the 1980 [[Rankin-Bass]] adaptation of ''[[Rankin-Bass's The Return of the King|The Return of the King]]''.

In [[Peter Jackson]]'s [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|''The Lord of the Rings'' film trilogy]], Arwen is played by [[Liv Tyler]]. Various additional scenes pertaining to Arwen are inserted, some of which deviate from the books and some of which seem inspired by the ''Tale of Aragorn and Arwen''.

In the first film, she sneaks up to find Aragorn and single-handedly rescues [[Frodo Baggins]] from the [[Black Riders]] at [[Bruinen]], thwarting them with a sudden flood, summoned by an incantation. In the book, it was [[Glorfindel]] who put Frodo on horseback and sent him alone to flee the Black Riders, and Elrond and [[Gandalf]] who arranged the flood. In the book, Frodo makes his own stand against the Black Riders; in the movie Arwen defends him. During this flight, Arwen wields the sword Hadhafang, stated to have once been wielded by her father in film merchandise. This sword, however, does not appear in the books at all; in fact, in the books, Arwen is never mentioned as armed (but she ''could'' have armed and defended herself as need; see below).

Following the aforementioned scenes, the deviations include a scene in which Aragorn is injured and has a dream about Arwen (who kisses him), a scene where Arwen has a fight with her father about leaving for [[Valinor]], and a scene where she (with [[Figwit]]) actually departs for Valinor and then suddenly returns when she sees an image of her future son, Eldarion. (In the books, it can hardly have been surprising to Arwen that she and Aragorn might have children together, since she herself is the descendant of two similar unions.)

Also, and perhaps most importantly, she apparently becomes sick with grief in the film version of ''The Return of the King'' — possibly over Aragorn's seemingly hopeless cause and his impending death — soon after she rides back from the road to the [[Grey Havens]]. Elrond takes the reforged [[Narsil]], now [[Andúril]], to Aragorn at Dunharrow, and tells him that her fate has become bound with the [[One Ring]], and that she is dying. However, no explanation is ever given for these statements, not even in the Extended Editions. Later, after the Ring is destroyed, Arwen shows up at Aragorn's coronation looking no worse for wear.

====Reaction====
Arwen had a very small visible role in the books outside of the Appendix (due to Tolkien conceiving the character late in the writing; Aragorn was originally supposed to marry Éowyn, as related in ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]''). In addition to making Arwen a more visible character, the change employs the principle of "economy of characters". Characters like Glorfindel (the Elf who helps Frodo by lending him his horse and later aiding his companions in driving the Ringwraiths into the water in the book), who appear once and perform only a few tasks, are often excised from film interpretations.

In earlier copies of the script (when the movies were supposed to be filmed in two parts under a different production company), Arwen actually fought in the [[Battle of the Hornburg|Battle of Helm's Deep]] and brought the sword Andúril to Aragorn. Some attribute the elimination of her character from the sequence to an early script leak. Another story is that Liv Tyler herself felt that the character's involvement in Helm's Deep was inappropriate, and convinced Jackson and his team to leave her out of the sequence, although the team did film at least part of her planned appearance at Helm's Deep.

These changes have met with mixed reactions. Many fans were upset because they seemed to pander to the lowest common denominator — that in order to make Arwen a "worthwhile" or "strong" character, she had to be a warrior — while in the books, her strength stems from her brave choice to forsake immortality and live a mortal life with Aragorn, which did not involve martial skill. Furthermore, there is already a skilled female warrior present in the story — namely Éowyn, but she first appears in the second part of the film trilogy. Some fans felt it odd to make it a point to insert a female warrior into a story which already had a prominent one, because this detracts from Éowyn's bravery in riding to battle. Also, he dominance at the Ford scene detracts from Frodo's bravery in the book (though admittedly the film Frodo is barely conscious - a case of Jackson "upping the ante"). However, in the second and third films in which Éowyn appears, Arwen's martial abilities are not shown at all.

Some criticize ''The Lord of the Rings'' for including few named female characters (though of course unnamed women are present, along with unnamed men) and thus accuse Tolkien of sexism. However, in the essay ''Laws and Customs among the Eldar'', which appears in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', Tolkien writes that male and female Elves are in fact viewed in Elven society as equals, save for the fact that only the females are capable of childbearing and are thus viewed as literally holding the future of their people in their hands. It is for this reason that they traditionally refrain from going to war (although they are still trained in all the aspects of combat taught to male Elves), usually occupying themselves during wartime as healers. As the text itself states:

:''In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the ''neri'' and ''nissi'' (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal – unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the ''nissi'' the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the ''neri''. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ''nér'' can think or do, or others with which only a ''nís'' is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of ''neri'' and ''nissi'', and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among the Eldar most practised by the ''nissi''; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the ''nissi'' in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the ''nissi'' fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength in speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child that is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.''(''Morgoth's Ring'', "The Second Phase", Laws and Customs Among the Eldar).

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Arwen|Images of Arwen]]

[[Category:Half-elven]]

Fanon

2006-11-16T07:48:25Z

Rog: added headings

'''Fanon''' is a term used to refer to "fan [[canon]]" (of which the term is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/portmanteau portmanteau]). It applies to certain "facts" that may have been accepted as a truth by a large number of fans, and thus either replaces an established canonical fact in the minds of those fans, or fills a plot-hole.

==Examples of fanon==

===Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun"===

*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.
**Actually, Tolkien never described his ages as being linked to the Sun and specifically wrote that the "First Age of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]" began with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], long before the first sunrise. Despite this, many fans believe the 'Ages of the Sun' version is ''correct'' because it has been repeated so often. For example, it is found in ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]], whose books are generally considered unreliable by Tolkien scholars on the internet such as Conrad Dunkerson and Steuard Jensen.

===Homosexuality===

*[[Fingon]] and [[Maedhros]] were lovers.
**This concept, which frequently appears in slash fan fiction (where writers explore homosexual pairings), derives from their close friendship in the book, but would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic. The less detailed nature of the ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' narrative in comparison to ''The Lord of the Rings'' gives fan fiction writers more leeway for developing a Fingon-Maedhros romance and its possible historical significance than exists with respect to a [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]-[[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] or [[Aragorn]]-[[Legolas]] relationship.
*The friendship of Frodo and Sam had homoerotic overtones.
**This concept, which has generated a great deal of slash fan fiction, derives from a modern interpretation of a book written in a different era, and would also have been likely rejected by Tolkien. (In an amusing nod to this idea, when TBS aired the film trilogy, some of their ads implied a homosexual relationship between Frodo and Sam, with the song "Secret Lovers" being played during the commercial.)
*The friendship of Aragorn and Legolas had homoerotic overtones.
**As with Frodo and Sam, this idea has produced a large amount of slash and would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien. However, this case is slightly different in that the idea largely derives from the films rather than the books, since the films emphasize the Aragorn-Legolas friendship more than the books do.

===The Arkenstone was a Silmaril===

*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Erebor]].

===Elrond visits Elros in Númenor===

*Late in the life of [[Elros]] his brother [[Elrond]] visited him in [[Númenor]] and was shocked to see how old he had grown, having chosen the mortality of [[Men]].
**An obscure note published in ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'' implies that Tolkien considered the possibility that Elrond and Elros originally sailed to Númenor together and that Elrond later returned to Middle-earth. However, there is no reference in Tolkien's writings to Elrond visiting Elros in his old age.

===Arwen's brothers are mischevious===

*[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]], the twin sons of Elrond, are jokesters and tricksters.
**This is a common characterization of them in fan fiction and may have been inspired by the depiction of the Weasley twins in J.K. Rowling's ''Harry Potter'' books as well as that of Merry and Pippin in Peter Jackson's films.

===Celebrian was raped by Orcs===

*[[Celebrían]], the mother of [[Arwen]], wife of Elrond and daughter of [[Galadriel]], was raped by the [[Orcs]] who captured her.
**According to this theory, Tolkien intended to convey the fact of the rape obliquely when he wrote that Celebrían received a "poisoned wound". This idea may or may not be contradicted by Tolkien's statement (in the notes to "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]" in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'') that [[Elves]] passed directly to [[Mandos]] (i.e. die) if they were raped, since that statement seems to refer specifically to rape committed by an Elf.

===Aragorn's illegitimate children===

*Aragorn may have become the biological father of [[Boromir]] and/or [[Faramir]] during his time in [[Gondor]] as "[[Thorongil]]".
**According to Appendices A and B of ''The Lord of the Rings'', "Thorongil" departed from Gondor in T.A. 2980; Boromir was born in 2978 and Faramir in 2983. Thus Aragorn was apparently in Gondor at the time of Boromir's birth (but not Faramir's). However, there is no evidence whatsoever in Tolkien's writings for an affair between Aragorn and [[Finduilas]] (the wife of [[Denethor]]). Such an occurrence would contradict Tolkien's devout Catholic viewpoint and the fact that Aragorn was raised among the Elves, for whom adultery was unthinkable.

===Faramir, Raven of Gondor===

*[[Faramir]] was known as "the Raven of [[Gondor]]" due to his status as the guardian of [[Ithilien]].
**This concept apparently derives from Tolkien describing Faramir's ''hair color'' as "raven". The designers of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Two Towers|The Two Towers]]'' film used ravens as a visual motif for Faramir. However, the title "the Raven of Gondor" is never used in Tolkien's writings or in the films.

===Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves===

*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth.
**This concept derives from publicity for the films, but is never stated in the films or the books.

===Legolas is 2931===

*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in T.A. 87.
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' T.A. 2931. The date of T.A. 87 for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. This is neither confirmed nor denied by Tolkien, who never reveals Legolas' birthdate.

===Legolas is blond===

*Legolas is blond.
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|animated]] and [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].

===Legolas the abused child===

*Thranduil, Legolas' father, was an abusive parent.
**This characterization appears frequently in fan fiction and is proposed as an explanation for Legolas being sent to Rivendell and for his referring to Thranduil as "my Elven lord" rather than "my father". However, ''The Hobbit'' depicts Thranduil in reasonably positive terms, especially given his status as the [[Dwarves]]' antagonist for part of the story.

===Names of the Nazgûl===

*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king of Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female — see below), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman.
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).

===A female Nazgûl===

*One of the nine Nazgûl was female.
**This concept also comes from MERP. Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict this idea with their consistent references to the Nazgûl as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' contradicts this idea by showing all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].

===Elf extras with fan-made names===

*There is an Elven-archer in [[Mirkwood]] named Silindë, described as a tall, blond Sinda. Also, the infamous [[Figwit]] has a Elvish name, Melpomaen.
**''Silindë'' is [[Quenya]] and should not be used to name an Elf in Mirkwood. Nor is it likely that a Sinda would be blond. Silindë is one of the more prominent characters in a large group of Elves in the films whose names are in use on the Internet despite not being established by Tolkien. Some of these Elves (including Silindë) were named in [[Decipher Inc.]]'s [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]; others were simply assigned names by Internet fandom. The Elf named Silindë by Decipher appears at the [[Council of Elrond]] in the film of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', and is played by [[Sam Kelly]]. Figwit (standing for "Frodo Is Great! Who Is That?), played by [[Bret McKenzie]], has no official name in the cast list for ''The Return of the King'', and is credited as "Elf Escort". ''Melpomaen'' is completely fabricated, and does not resemble any of Tolkien's authentic Quenya and Sindarin names.

===Mrs. Thranduil===

*The name of Legolas' mother is known.
**In fact a name was coined for her for MERP, but never by Tolkien.

===The War in the North===

*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]].
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the 2006 computer game ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].

===Aragorn and Arwen's daughters===

*In addition to their son [[Eldarion]], Aragorn and Arwen had as many as four or eight daughters.
**Tolkien's only reference to their children other than Eldarion is a mention of Arwen's "daughters", which could refer to as few as two. Moreover, Elves tended to have few childbirths (the six births of [[Fëanor]] and [[Nerdanel]]'s seven children were unparallelled), and Arwen was [[Half-elven]].

===The shape of Middle-earth===

*The whole continent of [[Middle-earth]] resembles Europe with respective continents for Asia and Africa, while [[Valinor]] is in the place of the United States and has a crescent shape.
**This derives from ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]'', which tried to composite a map of [[Arda]] based on a drawing by Tolkien (made in the late 1930s or early 40s and published in ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'') and the later well-known maps of [[Beleriand]] and the coasts of Middle-earth. Although this old map generally fits the descriptions of the canonical ''Silmarillion'', it is a matter of debate whether earlier concepts of Tolkien's can be used to fill the gaps of later works such as LotR.

===Pointed ears===

*Elves and Hobbits have pointed ears.
**This is nowhere stated in ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'' and in ''The Silmarillion'', though Tolkien implied that Hobbit ears were pointed in a letter he wrote later about illustrations, and that Elven ears were pointed in the "[[The Etymologies (Tolkien)|Etymologies]]" published in ''[[The Lost Road]]''. See [[Elves]], [http://www.tolkiensociety.org/faq01.html#pointed_ears Tolkien FAQ].

===Hobbit feet===

*Hobbits have huge feet.
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". The idea that they have very large feet, as depicted in the movies, probably derives from illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]].

===Déagol/Sméagol relationship===

*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This fanon probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]]. [http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]

==Other kinds of fanon==
Due to the nature of the work, much pseudo-scientific speculation is encouraged in order to explain motivations, facts, reactions and generally fill some gaps. This differs from proper fanon since such study does not invent new elements from scratch, but rather attempts to reveal ''how'' canon is. See also [[Tolkienology]].

Fanon can also take the form of personal beliefs held by individuals. In this case, an individual may create an expansive backstory, possibly a fan fiction, which they accept as "true." These have less standing than even the fanon mentioned above, and thus are not included on [[Tolkien Gateway]].

John Boorman's The Lord of the Rings

2006-11-16T07:19:43Z

Rog: /* Sources */

In the mid-1970s, director [[John Boorman]] planned a film adaptation of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', collaborating with his colleague [[Rospo Pallenberg]] and the current film rights holder and producer [[Saul Zaentz]]. Produced by [[United Artists]], it would have been one long movie with an intermission.

In the script, written by Boorman and Pallenberg, many things were changed and/or added. The first half is largely based on ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''. Following the intermission, the writers “dropped things out” and “invented as they went along”.

Among other things, [[Frodo]] and [[Galadriel]] have sex, the [[Witch-king]] rides a horse whose "''live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed''" in lieu of a flying [[fell beast]], and Aragorn uses both shards of [[Narsil]] with the hilt-less half having a makeshift leather handle (before they are reattached).

The project ultimately proved too expensive to finance at that time. Boorman ended up making the Arthurian epic ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_%28film%29 Excalibur]'' instead, also with Pallenberg's help - where in a draft for that movie’s script they use similar concepts.

==Sources==
*''OUTRE: The World Of Ultramedia'', #26
*[http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12786 Discussion at the Barrow-downs], with a summary of the important differences in the script.
*[http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=51271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Boorman's ''The Lord of the Rings'', from forums.theonering.com], which contains some of the above material plus a extensive list of changes
*[http://dandalf.com/dandalf/ExcaliburScript.html Boorman's ''Excalibur'' script - draft]

[[Category:Films]]

John Boorman's The Lord of the Rings

2006-11-16T07:17:45Z

Rog: tweaks

In the mid-1970s, director [[John Boorman]] planned a film adaptation of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', collaborating with his colleague [[Rospo Pallenberg]] and the current film rights holder and producer [[Saul Zaentz]]. Produced by [[United Artists]], it would have been one long movie with an intermission.

In the script, written by Boorman and Pallenberg, many things were changed and/or added. The first half is largely based on ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''. Following the intermission, the writers “dropped things out” and “invented as they went along”.

Among other things, [[Frodo]] and [[Galadriel]] have sex, the [[Witch-king]] rides a horse whose "''live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed''" in lieu of a flying [[fell beast]], and Aragorn uses both shards of [[Narsil]] with the hilt-less half having a makeshift leather handle (before they are reattached).

The project ultimately proved too expensive to finance at that time. Boorman ended up making the Arthurian epic ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_%28film%29 Excalibur]'' instead, also with Pallenberg's help - where in a draft for that movie’s script they use similar concepts.

==Sources==
*''OUTRE: The World Of Ultramedia'', #26
*[http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12786 Discussion at the Barrow-downs], with a summary of the important differences in the script.
*[http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=51271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Boorman's ''The Lord of the Rings'', from forums.theonering.com], which contains some of the above material plus a extensive listing of changes
*[http://dandalf.com/dandalf/ExcaliburScript.html Boorman's ''Excalibur'' script - draft]

[[Category:Films]]

Legolas of Mirkwood

2006-10-14T18:21:22Z

Rog: added artist caption

{{royalty infobox
| image=[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Legolas2.jpg|250px]] ''Legolas'' by Jenny Dolfen
| name= Legolas Greenleef
| hideb=yes
| othernames=
| birth= Unknown
| rule=
| death= Sailed to [[Grey Havens]] in [[Fourth Age 120]].
| realms= Mirkwood (prince)
| race=[[Elves|Elf]]
| gender= Male
| height=
| hair= Probably dark brown (Blond in movies)
| eyes=
|}}
'''Legolas Greenleaf''' was an [[Elves|Elf]], a [[Sindar|Sinda]] prince who became a member of the [[Fellowship of the Ring]]. With his superior Elven eyesight and hearing, together with excellent skill at arms, particularly archery, Legolas was a valuable resource to the other eight members of the Fellowship. In ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', however, [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] states that in comparison to the rest, Legolas accomplished the least of the nine members of the Fellowship.

Legolas served as a link to the earlier story, ''[[The Hobbit]]'', because he (like [[Gimli]] the [[Dwarf]]) was the son of a character from the previous tale.

== History ==
Legolas was the son of King [[Thranduil]] of the [[Woodland Realm]] of Northern [[Mirkwood]], who appeared as the "Elvenking" in ''[[The Hobbit]]''; his father ruled over the [[Silvan Elves]] who dwelt there. Although he lived among them, was exposed to their culture, and inferred that he considered himself one of them, Legolas was strictly ''not'' one of the Silvan Elves ([[Wood-elves]]). His father Thranduil had originally come from [[Doriath]]; he and his son were actually [[Sindar]] (singular ''Sinda'' — "[[Sindarin]]" is their language). A small minority of Sindar ruled the predominantly Silvan Woodland Realm, a minority which Thranduil headed. The Sindarin minority in that realm, who should have been more noble and wise than the Silvan Elves, can be seen as having "gone native" at the end of the First Age: after [[Morgoth]] was defeated and all of the grand Elf-kingdoms of [[Beleriand]] were destroyed, they can be seen as going back to "a simpler time" in their culture. The realm of [[Lothlórien]] is similar to the Woodland Realm in that a community of Silvan Elves is ruled by non-Silvan ones, i.e. [[Galadriel]] and [[Celeborn]].

=== Before the War of the Ring ===
Though his father and his kingdom appeared in ''The Hobbit'', he did not appear himself. Of course, his character had not been created yet (though his name had; see below). However, some have theorized that he may well have fought in the [[Battle of Five Armies]]. The events in ''The Hobbit'' take place less than one hundred years before the Quest of Mount Doom. Unlike Men, the Eldar (which included the Sindar) reached adulthood on or before they reached a hundred years of age.
{{quote|Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]"}}

Legolas is older than Aragorn and Gimli, who are, according to their birthdates in the [[Appendices]], 87 and 139 respectively at the time of the War of the Ring; he even calls them "children" (see Age discussion below). Thus, he must have been alive during the events of ''The Hobbit''. Logically, as a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon retcon] he could quite conceivably have been present in his father's halls at the time, and may have even fought at the [[Battle of Five Armies]].

=== The War of the Ring ===
[[Image:John Howe - Legolas.jpg|thumb|left|''Legolas'' by [[John Howe]]]]
He is introduced in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' at the [[Council of Elrond]] at [[Rivendell]], where he came as a messenger from his father to discuss the escape of [[Gollum]] from their guard. Tolkien describes him as "a strange Elf, clad in green and brown". Legolas volunteered or was chosen to become one of the members of the Fellowship that set out to destroy the [[One Ring]]. He accompanied the others in their travels from Rivendell to [[Amon Hen]].

When the Fellowship was snowed down while crossing [[Caradhras]], he scouted ahead to find the Sun, while [[Aragorn II|Aragorn]] and [[Boromir son of Denethor II|Boromir]] drove a path through the snow. Unlike them, he was little affected by the blowing winds and snow; he did not even wear boots, only light shoes, and his feet scarcely made imprints on the snow.

After their attempt to cross Caradhras was foiled, their leader [[Gandalf]] took them on an underground journey through [[Moria]], an ancient Dwarf-kingdom, though some (including Legolas) did not wish to go there. Before they reached Moria, however, Legolas helped fend off an attack of Sauron's wolves in [[Hollin]]. Once in Moria, he helped fight off the Orcs whom they encounter there, and recognized [[Durin's Bane]] as a [[Balrogs|Balrog]] of [[Morgoth]].

After Gandalf was lost while facing the Balrog, Aragorn took charge of the Fellowship and led them to the Elven realm of [[Lothlórien]], the Golden Wood. Legolas served as the initial spokesperson for the company, speaking with the inhabitants, the [[Galadhrim]], whom he considered close kin.

Within the Fellowship, there was friction between Legolas and the [[Dwarf]] [[Gimli]], because of the ancient quarrel between Elves and Dwarves after the destruction of [[Doriath]] in the [[First Age]], and also because his father, Thranduil, once threw Gimli's father, [[Glóin son of Gróin|Glóin]], in prison (as described in ''[[The Hobbit]]''). Legolas and Gimli became friends, however, when Gimli greeted the [[Galadriel|Lady of the Golden Wood]] with gentle words.

They then took leave of Lothlórien, but not before receiving several gifts. There, he received a new longbow from the [[Galadhrim]], along with the other gifts that [[Galadriel]] and [[Celeborn, Lord of Lórien|Celeborn]] gave him and the rest of the Fellowship, such as special cloaks and ''[[lembas]]''. While the Fellowship was travelling over the [[Anduin|Anduin River]], he shot down a nearby [[Fell beasts|Fell beast]] with a single arrow.

After Boromir was killed and [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] and [[Pippin]] were captured by Orcs in ''The Two Towers'', he, Aragorn and Gimli set forth in pursuit of the two ([[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] the [[Ring-bearer]] and [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] had gone ahead on the road to Mordor). They met the revived Gandalf and the [[Rohirrim]], fought in the [[Battle of the Hornburg]], and witnessed [[Saruman]]'s (partial) downfall at [[Isengard]], where they were reunited with the two abducted hobbits. In the Battle of the Hornburg, he and Gimli engaged in an [[Orc]]-slaying contest (Gimli won by a single Orc, killing 42 to Legolas's 41, but the real result was stronger mutual respect).

In ''The Return of the King'', he and Gimli accompanied Aragorn on the [[Paths of the Dead]], along with the [[Grey Company]]. After Aragorn summoned the [[Dead Men]] of [[Dunharrow]] to fight for him, he watched them scare away the [[Corsairs of Umbar]] from their ships at [[Pelargir]]. He fought in the [[Battle of the Pelennor]] and the [[Morannon]], and watched as [[Sauron]] was defeated and [[Barad-dûr]] collapsed.

=== After the War of the Ring ===
After the destruction of the [[One Ring]], he lingered in [[Minas Tirith]] for some time, as Aragorn was crowned King of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] as King [[Elessar]] and married his love Arwen. Later, Legolas and Gimli went off travelling together through [[Fangorn Forest]]. Eventually, Legolas came to [[Ithilien]] with some of his people, with his father's leave, to live out his remaining time in [[Middle-earth]] helping to restore the devastated forests of that war-ravaged land.

It is told in the Red Book (first written by [[Bilbo Baggins]], continued by [[Frodo Baggins]] and supposedly finished by [[Samwise Gamgee]]) that after the death of King [[Aragorn Elessar]], Legolas built a grey ship in [[Ithilien]], and left Middle-earth to go over the Sea to [[Valinor]], the Blessed Realm, and Gimli the Dwarf went with him.

== Portrayal in Adaptations ==
[[Image:Ralph Bakshi's Legolas.jpg||thumb|250px|Legolas as portrayed in [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings]]]]
[[Image:Legolas at Amon Hen.jpg|thumb|250px|[[Orlando Bloom]] as Legolas in [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]]]
Legolas was voiced by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Daniels Anthony Daniels] (who had played the droid C-3PO of ''Star Wars'' fame) in [[Ralph Bakshi]]'s 1978 animated version of ''[[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|The Lord of the Rings]]''. In the film, he takes [[Glorfindel of Rivendell|Glorfindel's]] place in the Flight to the Ford sequence; he meets Strider and the hobbits on their way to [[Rivendell]], and sets Frodo on his horse before he is chased by the Nazgûl to the ford of [[Bruinen]] (In Peter Jackson's version, [[Arwen]] takes Glorfindel's place and rides to the Ford herself with Frodo). Here, he is apparently from Rivendell, because he answers to Elrond; he is not identified as a Wood-elf.

Legolas was voiced by [[David Collings]] in the [[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|1981 BBC Radio 4 adaptation]].

In [[Peter Jackson]]'s [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|''Lord of the Rings'' movie trilogy]]m Legolas was portrayed by [[Orlando Bloom]].

In the "official movie guide" for ''The Lord of the Rings'', a birthdate for Legolas is set to 87 of the [[Third Age]]. This would make him 2931 years old at the time of the [[War of the Ring]]. This date for Legolas' birth was made up by the movie writers, as in the books there are no known dates concerning Legolas before Third Age 3018. Curiously, the year 2931 was the year Aragorn was born; the writers may have picked the number at random from the ''Tale of Years'' in the [[Appendices]].

He is presented as an unstoppable fighter, arguably to the point of stealing the show; he performs show-stopping yet implausible stunts in battle scenes. For example, in the [[Battle of the Hornburg]], he slides down a staircase using a shield, shooting arrows all the while, and in the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]], he takes down an [[Oliphaunts|Oliphaunt]] all by himself. However, in the books Legolas's exploits in battle are not presented in great detail. Aside from shooting the fell beast, he undertakes no major actions other than to make peace with Gimli, overcoming their longstanding mutual racial animosity — he and Gimli are followers, rather than leaders. The film-makers later stated that the entire scene of Legolas killing the Oliphaunt and its entire crew was filmed during pick-ups (months after original filming) to insert a major action scene showcasing him, because at that point they realized that he simply doesn't get to do much in the third part of the trilogy.

He wears green and grey clothes and uses boots, in contrast to Tolkien's green and "brown" clothes and "light shoes". It is notable that in the extended DVD edition of The Fellowship of the Ring, a scene in Lothlorien is included in which Legolas is wearing a different costume than his normal. This was in fact his original costume, which was later changed due to the filmmaker's dissatisfaction with it. Fans have come up with several explanations for this seeming inconsistency. Two possibilities stand above the rest as the most likely: (1) Legolas brought an extra tunic and jerkin from Mirkwood and decided to wear it at this moment, (2) The Elves of Lothlorien, under the leadership of [[Haldir of Lórien|Haldir]], gave Legolas a new tunic of their own make (or one they had traded with other Elves) for him to wear. The most common explanation for why he would change his tunic is that his other one was dirty from the long trek up to that point and he wanted to have it washed in the clean waters of the [[Nimrodel the river|Nimrodel]].

Legolas bears two long knives, while in the book he bears only one. Another, more trivial change, was the number of Orcs he and Gimli kill at [[Helm's Deep]]: 42 and 43, respectively. This brings up an interesting possibility that could further illuminate the playful antagonism between the two characters. Legolas might give his count as "42" but secretly tells an untruth and really has only killed 41 [[Uruk-hai]], but wants to make sure he has more than Gimli. Gimli, who has only killed 42 gives his answer as "43", to make sure he bests the Elf. It is not clear, however, whether this was an intentional change on the part of the filmmakers, though it seems likely that it was, since the original numbers were so clear in Tolkien's own text.

Due to technical mishaps involving Orlando Bloom's contact lenses, in the films Legolas' eye colour sometimes changes between brown, purple, and blue. This was justified by the notion that Elves' eyes change colour with their mood. This idea subsequently spread to fanfiction; however, it is pure [[fanon]], and is nowhere to be found in Tolkien's writings, and is often simply meant as a joke; in any case, his eye color was probably grey; see [[Elves#Eye color|here]] for more details. Another common explanation for Legolas' changing eye color is the obvious fact that light reflects off objects differently in different conditions and that, therefore, the Elf's eyes "seem" to change color in different lighting environments.

Playing Legolas in the trilogy was Orlando Bloom's breakout route to superstardom. His handsome features and Legolas' "coolness", so to speak, as depicted in the film, have led to the character becoming a unprecedented fan favorite with both fangirls and fanboys, not to mention other Tolkien fans. Although the disproportionate popular reaction to Legolas met with mixed reactions from fans, many debaters on the Internet during earlier stages of production were worried, that a film portrayal of Legolas might render him as far too effeminate for popular consumption, but later many felt that Bloom was able to avoid this entirely. [[Christopher Tolkien]] recounts that his father wrote the following "wrathful" comment protesting against a "pretty" or "ladylike" depiction of Legolas:
{{quote|He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.|[[The Book of Lost Tales Part 2]]}}

Despite Bloom's popularity, many viewers have found his performance wooden, in agreement with his status as a "Wood"-elf.

Legolas is absent from the [[Rankin/Bass' The Return of the King|1980 animated version of ''The Return of the King]].

== Disputed Issues ==
===Age===
While Legolas' age is never given in Tolkien's writings, some [[Tolkienist|Tolkien scholars]] have estimated he is at the most 800 – 900 years old by the time of the War of the Ring, and at least 500, though probably more; however, many others disagree on the maximum figure. Without any direct mention to the contrary, he could also have been born as early as the First Age. At the very least, we know he is over 139 years old, because he is older than Gimli (see below).

The figure of 500 years minimum was derived from the following — at one point in ''The Two Towers'', he says that the leaves have fallen in Mirkwood 500 times since [[Meduseld]] was built, and he appears to be describing it as if he actually experienced this:
{{quote|Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right," said Aragorn. "Many long lives of men it is since the [[Meduseld|golden hall]] was built."<p>"Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us."</p>"But to the Riders of the Mark it seems so long ago," said Aragorn, "that the raising of this house is but a memory of song, and the years before are lost in the mist of time.|''[[The Two Towers]]'', "[[The White Rider]]"}}

To see their reasoning for an age of 800 – 900 years, see the articles referred to [[#external links|below]].

In ''Laws and Customs Among the Eldar'', Tolkien states that the mental development of Elf-children is much quicker than those of human children. By their first year, Elf-children can already walk, speak, and even dance.
{{quote|The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people.|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]"}}

If we are to infer that Elves can have concrete memories at a younger age than humans do, Legolas could conceivably have remembered the last 500 autumns that have passed, starting when he was very young.

However, he could be merely commenting on the contrasting viewpoints of Men and Elves on time ("and but a little while does that seem to us"); more importantly, 500 years is here clearly "the time elapsed since Meduseld was built". At face value, his statement says ''nothing'' about his age — to go further would only be speculation.

It is certainly possible that he was older than what many fans imagine him to be, at least (probably due to the influence of Bloom and his portrayal). In ''The Two Towers'', he calls Aragorn (born Third Age 2931, 87 years old in 3018, 88 at the end of the War some months later) and Gimli (born 2879, 139 years old in 3018) "children" while in [[Fangorn Forest]], and says that he does not ''feel'' young:
{{quote|It [the forest] is old, very old," said the Elf. "So old that almost I feel young '''again''', as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.|''[[The Two Towers]]'', "[[The White Rider]]"}}

Also, he speaks of watching oaks grow from acorns to "ruinous age", suggesting that he is in fact old, though possibly young for Elves (some kinds of oak can live for a very long time):
{{quote|These are the strangest trees that I ever saw," [Legolas] said; "and I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age. I wish that there were leisure now to walk among them: they have voices, and in time I might come to understand their thought.|ibid}}

However, even the minimum figure of 500 can still apply here, since Tolkien could have had the English oak in mind, and it can live up to about 500 years.

Also, some readers point out that his birthdate is not recorded in the Appendices. For them, this might be a sign that he was born in the [[First Age]], since the Appendices only record dates from the [[Second Age]] onwards.

=== Hair color ===
[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Legolas.jpg|thumb|200px|An earlier ''Legolas'' by [[Jenny Dolfen]], modelled after [[Orlando Bloom]].]]
His father Thranduil was blond, so many assume that Legolas must have been blond also (Indeed, both [[Ralph Bakshi]] and [[Peter Jackson]] make him blond). However, Tolkien describes his head as "dark" when he shoots down a [[Ringwraiths|Ringwraith]]'s [[Fell beasts|Fell beast]] in ''The Fellowship of the Ring'' in the following quote, suggesting the contrary to some:
{{quote|Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind.|''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', "[[The Great River]]"}}

According to this camp, his hair must be either dark brown or black, as was the norm for the Sindar. (Blond hair was mostly exclusive to the [[Vanyar]].) However, the "blond" camp points out that the above quote takes place ''at night'', and opines that his head may have appeared "dark" due to shadows, rather than his actual hair color.

=== Birth order ===
Some assume that he is an only child; however, he could be only one of Thranduil's children. Thranduil did let him leave Mirkwood to find a new elf-community in Ithilien, suggesting to some that he was not his heir; but then others opine that given the longevity of Elves and the relative safety of Middle-earth after Sauron's downfall, Thranduil could go on ruling the Woodland Realm as long as he liked or until he felt the sea-longing. No definitive evidence is given, either way.

== Name ==
The name '''Legolas''' is a [[Silvan]] dialect form of pure [[Sindarin]] ''Laegolas'', which means Greenleaf. This shows that '''''Greenleaf''''' is not his surname, as is sometimes erroneously believed; nor is it an epithet (like ''[[Oakenshield]]''), but a translation of his name. It consists of the [[Sindarin]] words ''laeg'', green; and ''golas'', a collection of leaves, foliage (being a prefixed collective form of ''las(s)'', "leaf"). The [[Quenya]] form (mentioned in the ''Book of Lost Tales'' in the context of another character of that name) is ''Laiqualassë''.

There might, however, be a certain meaning to his name: ''laeg'' is a very rare, archaic word for green, which is normally replaced by ''calen'' (cf. ''Calenhad'', mutated ''Parth Galen'' and plural ''Pinnath Gelin'') and is otherwise almost only preserved in ''Laegrim, Laegel(d)rim'' (Sindarin form of Quenya [[Laiquendi]]), the ''Green Elves'' of the First Age. It may be that Thranduil named his son ''Legolas'' to at least in part refer to this people, who were remote kin and ancestors of the later Silvan Elves, the people Thranduil ruled and to whom—very likely—Thranduil's wife belonged.

Apparently, only Hobbits (and the Men of Bree) used surnames (like [[Baggins]] or [[Gamgee]]), as recorded in the Red Book. Men and Elves alike used the patronymic (''son of'') formula. In English, therefore, a fuller name would be "Legolas son of Thranduil" or "Legolas Thranduil's son". In Sindarin, that would be ''Legolas Thranduilion'', -''ion'' meaning "scion of".

===Legolas of Gondolin===
The name ''Legolas Greenleaf'' first appeared in ''[[The Fall of Gondolin]]'', one of the ''[[The Book of Lost Tales|Lost Tales]]'', circa 1917. The character is mentioned only once and is unrelated to the character discussed above. As the Lost Tales were the first embodiment of Tolkien's mythology, and by the time ''The Lord of the Rings'' was written much had changed, this in all likelihood is not the same Elf, and he was not included in the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''.
{{quote|But the others, led by one '''Legolas Greenleaf''' of the [[House of the Tree|house of the Tree]], who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march.|''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part 2]]'', "[[The Fall of Gondolin]]"}}

The [[Legolas of Gondolin]], who Tolkien would likely have renamed, has a different etymology. His name (''Laiqalassë'' in its pure form) comes from the primitive [[Quenya]] (''Qenya'') words ''laica'' ("green") and ''lassë'' ("leaf"). The names are very similar, but the characters were different: Legolas of Gondolin was possibly a [[Noldor]] in exile, of the House (kindred) of the Tree. However, the published ''Silmarillion'', in describing [[Turgon of Gondolin|Turgon]]'s founding of Gondolin, states that Turgon took with him up to a third of the people under [[Fingolfin]], but an even larger number of the Sindar. Thus, whether Legolas of Gondolin was of Noldorin or Sindarin descent is debatable.

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Legolas|Images of Legolas]]

== Sources ==
* [http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html Legolas of Mirkwood: Prince Among Equals] - An Essay by Ellen Brundige
* [http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517 "Speaking of Legolas..."] by Michael Martinez, Suite101.com, 2004
* [http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=12604 Discussion on Legolas' age, from the '''theonering.com''' messageboards]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/l/legolas.html Legolas Greenleaf] at the Encyclopedia of Arda
* [http://www.tuckborough.net/legolas.html Legolas] at The Thain's Book

{{fellowship}}

[[Category:Grey Elves]]

User:Rog

2006-08-28T07:20:33Z

Rog:

Hi. I'm not a "Ringer", just a reader.

I don't like the Peter Jackson films much (just too much was changed), am ambivalent about Bakshi's, and haven't seen the Rankin-Bass ones. I'm mildly irritated by self-professed "Lord of the Rings" fans who don't actually read the book (though admittedly it's not for everyone), fangirls (and fanboys) who confuse a character with his or her portrayer ("Orli fans", anyone?), and those who actually think that the EA games and the Weapons and Warfare book are canonical.

User talk:Hyarion

2006-08-26T13:29:39Z

Rog: /* English or American spellings? */

==Need Help With Footnotes!==
Hyarion, I need help getting the footnotes working on the [[Chamber of Mazarbul]] page. Could you help? Thanks so much.

-Old Took

:I saw you added that on the [[Talk:Chamber of Mazarbul|talk page]] but wasn't sure what you meant as the links work fine for me. What doesn't seem to be working for you? When I click them it sends the page down to align the top line with the relevant footnote, and when you click the up arrow it will jump you back up to the in-text citation. Am I missing something? Keep in mind the footnotes aren't very effective as the page can only scroll so much, thus rending it incapable of going all the way down to the correct reference. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:24, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

::Sorry, it was a browser problem of mine. Everything's fine now! -Old Took

==Question==
Hello, Hyarion!

I hope this is the right place to send messages - if not, please erase this.

Well, I was suprised to see that I was the second person to register in here, but that's even better: there's plenty of room to fill in.

I found these pages - as you might guess - via the Finnish Kontu forum, where the administrator Merri had posted a message informing about possibilities for co-operation. So I hope there will be more Finns to register in. I'll send my contributions when I have time to do that - quite irregularly, I'm afraid, but let's hope the best.

yours, Tik

By the way, how does one start writing a new article to which there exists no previous
link? I couldn't figure that out, being quite unaccustomed to Wiki. The only way I could start writing a new article was to edit a previous one and add there a new internal link and continue editing that one.

:I have a feeling that will be a common one (because I had to figure that one out myself) so I'll post that on the help page. All you have to do is type in your address bar, something like http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Title of Page (it will even insert the underscores for you) and you will be directed to a page that does not exist and you can edit it that way.

:Also, something I broke my own rule on, its a good idea to type a 'signature' when adding a comment to a discussion, otherwise no one knows who wrote it. I wish mediawiki would do it automatically, but until I fix that, a good standard to use is like mine below, just type "&mdash ;" but take the space out between the h and the semicolon...I can't figure out how to show those literally. You can also use -- it's just a matter of preference. And then type 4 ~ in a row. The first one prints out your name, second the time, 3rd the date, and 4th the timezone I believe.

:EDIT: Hm...looks like your one step ahead of me, on your pages, you have exactly that.

:EDIT: On second thought I'm going to move this to User:Hyarion because I'll probably keep this page to say what the English translation of Hyarion is. -- [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:41, 12 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== Answer To Your Question ==
A lot of my stuff is at my LJ, [http://www.livejournal.com/users/brighty11/ ~~Black Sun~~], and some is at Parma, OF and Elfsheen, but a lot is just on my hard disk. :)

— [[User:BrightSideoftheDark|Brighty]] 6:22, 25 Aug 2005 (EDT)

== Bokkie Moans ==
Hey

Can you try and make a [[Special:Sandbox]] for us users to try stuff out in?
makes editing family lines and such easier...

I've spotted a difference of opinion... 8-)
I've been trying to remove all the '''Hobbits Category''' entries from the different hobbits, but I see you add them still... It did make it easier for me to check who had been edited...
I guess we want them back?

* Ah, hehe. That is something I was debating. I wonder if it is possible to have a 'Hobbits' cateogry and in it, list the hobbit family names, but have it also contain a list of all the hobbits since those are sub-categories. I guess when it comes down to it I just want a page that lists all the Hobbits, whatever way works I'm fine with. Sorry I totally forgot you were removing those, heh, I'll look into it to see what way will work. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:44, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)
::I'll leave the Hobbit category be then. I guess it would be just as useful to have all the hobbits in one big list, as it was. Just add a category for the specific family too, like you did 8-)
I've got my doubts about double pages like [[Sam Gamgee]] and [[Samwise Gamgee]].
It basically is one and the same person, only a nickname or shortform. I would rather see 1 article with a list of "aliases"... --[[User:Bokkie|Bokkie]] 17:42, 14 Sep 2005 (EDT)
:I understand where you're coming from and I'll keep thinking about it, but for the time being I still say that it would be more beneficial to have the names on seperate pages, because each name has a specific meaning. For example [[Aragorn Elessar]] and [[Strider]] and such, you can go into great detail about the different names and people who called him that, places he used it, and the [[Elvish]] translations along with the old english meanings, etc. This would tend to drag down the [[Aragorn Elessar]] page to list all the names/information on it. For things like [[Sam Gamgee]] there is not going to be as much information to talk about it, but just to keep the same system I think it's best to keep it. In the future we can list when he is referred to as 'Sam' and by whom. Just my opinion though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:15, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)

== Sandbox ==
Good idea, I'll add that to the to-do list while I upgrade the new wiki software, which should greatly improve the left menu, I'm going to be able to add things like links to the letters A-Z or links to races or to whatever we want and in different tables, if you have any suggestions let me know. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:39, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)

==What Happened to Me?==
This is Brighty - what happened to me? I tried to log in and it said I don't exist. Weird.
::Were you using "BrightSideoftheDark"? Your still on the userlist, odd. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:51, 3 November 2005 (EST)

== Cirith Gorgor and related bands ==
Hey Hyarion,

Like Blind Guardian not all songs relate to Tolkien, but the ones that do stick to theme. Do you want bands to stick with just a band page?
:Honestly it's up to you, that's the best part, no one person has full control and we as a community can make decisions, but with the [[Blind Guardian]] page I just copied that from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Guardian for now and have yet to remove the unnecessary links, which was my fault because you were basing your articles off that. With Blind Guardian, as with [[Cirith Gorgor (band)|Cirith Gorgor]] it is tricky because the [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] theme is greater in some albums and songs than others so there is no easy fine line. In the end more information is always better than less and if in the future we deem the articles as unnecessary it won't take any effort to remove them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:05, 28 November 2005 (EST)
::Ah ok. I was gonna just throw up a band page but saw all the information on Blind Guardian I figure I better not slack and add some more :P I'll clean it up and keep it that way in the future.

== Barrowdowns Mb ==
Hey Hyarion,

I like your idea about the barrowdowns.com MB, I say lets do it.-Goldfinger

==Spam==
Hi Hyarion Firstly love this site! Secondly we have a troll adding porn links: Hfskodweyb I have edited and deleted the nonesense twice but it reappears. you may need to block this spammer {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}
:Good morning Sancho! Yes unfortunately we do get bots from time to time. Luckily they are just trying to gain PageRank so they normally try to hide the links. In an upcoming patch we will be forcing unregistered users to type in some random numbers/letters from an image to stop the bots. This one managed to register which makes it a bit more difficult to stop but the best we can do is add an extension that only allows people to edit X amount of pages in X amount of minutes which I'm looking into as well. Thanks for keeping an eye on it.
--[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 10:57, 14 April 2006 (EDT)

== Ñoldor vs. Noldor ==
Hello. You asked about the use of ñ, and the answer's pretty complicated. First let me say the I changed the n to ñ just to be consistent in the text - I really don't care much one way or the other. And here's the long story behind it all...

Ñ is used as a nasal plosive by Tolkien, so it would sound something like "ng" in "song" or "king". This is Quenya in its purist form. The Vanyar in Aman would say "Ñoldor", not "Noldor". Occasionally you will even see "Ñoldor" spelled "Ngoldor". However, in Middle Earth, the mixing of languages changed pronounciations, so by the Third Age an elf would just as likely say "Noldor", as "Ñoldor". Older pronounciations did continue into the Third Age; for example the name "Elrond". Quenya in the Third Age tended to drop the "d" at the end of words, but Elrond was always referred to by his archaic name, rather than by "Elron".

You wanted citations, but I can't name them off the top of my head. Check out this page: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/ndnn.htm for more info. He's a linguist that knows his stuff and where I got my knowledge of Quenya.

So there you go, the sordid tale of "ñ". The whole thing comes down to whether the text is referring to ancient "Ñoldor" or the "Noldor" of the Third Age. If a final decision needs to be made, I would use "Noldor" throughout the site and mention in passing that "Ñoldor" is the older spelling and pronounciation of the word.

Hope this helps. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

== More on Spam ==
In regards to the spam comment above: since the site uses MediaWiki, it's very easy to disallow anonymous editing. While it will slightly slow down the growth of the site, it adds a layer of protection that a wiki needs to stay relevant to its audience. Few bots can handle the complexity of registering, especially if email confirmation is required. It's a bit of a pain for casual users, but it's worth it in the long run. Just my two cents. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

:Thanks for your input. While I think at this point in time disallowing anonymous editing goes a bit against the wiki definition, a new version of the engine has been released which forces anonymous editors to type a randomly generated word which would stop the spam bots rather effectively. Email confirmation is something which currently is required but should bots continue to register then we will require it (or force a word verification on register). --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:19, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Requested articles ==
If it is possible, it might be good to allow those who have not logged in request a page or request a page’s expansion. [[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:05, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

:That's definitely something I've had in the queue for a while. I'll try and add that today, on second thought I'll just add that right now. Even if they aren't logged in they can still make whatever page they want, and just add the <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki> tag to let us know it needs to be worked on. But I still think we need a Request an article and maybe like you said a request a page's expansion. Maybe we can just add the stub tag if we want it to be expanded, and then have a "Expansion of the week" where each week we focus on a stub and work on rewriting it and making it better. Thanks for the input. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:16, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Uploading pictures ==
I Have been trying to add a photo, but I get the message ".jpg]] is not a valid picture format"

What am I doing wrong ( perhaps you can give an 'idiot's guide' on adding photos. (The one I wish to upload is saved in my hard drive) {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:Odd, I've never had any problems with uploading images. What is the destination filename you are using? From here it looks like you are maybe typing the destination filename as "<nowiki>[[Blah.jpg]]</nowiki>" when all you really need to say is "Blah.jpg", no need for any brackets. Let me know if that helps. When I upload images I don't even bother altering the destination filename as it will automatically insert whatever your file is called on your computer. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:52, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

::Ok that worked, but haven't any idea of how to link it to the relevant page. Can you move it please? {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:::Great! I'll go ahead and show you how to link and let you do it, better to teach than to do :) Here is an example of the image at [[Alan Lee]]:

:::<nowiki>[[Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg|thumb|200px|Image of ''Alan Lee'' courtesy of [http://www.gregmartinphoto.com/ Greg Martin Photgraphy]]]</nowiki>

:::The first part "<nowiki>Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg</nowiki>" is your image name, make sure to include the .jpg What I usually do is go to the actual image and copy the title. Then if you want it to be a thumbnail, which I usually do, I add |thumb, then if its not the right size you can specify how many pixels you want, |200px to |300px is usually around the average. Then you can specify the caption. After that add your closing brackets and you are good to go. Let me know if you have any questions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:11, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

==Non-standard Text==
Hyarion,

I was hoping the wiki could add a list of non-standard letters at the bottom of the edit page, like the list featured in Wikipedia. It would help with First Age entries, where there are a lot of accents. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 02:15, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Ebakunin, this is a feature which I've been meaning to implement, thanks for reminding me. If you haven't already noticed I've added the extension and you can now insert special characters :) I don't think we need as many characters as Wikipedia so if you see any unnecessary ones feel free to remove them from [[MediaWiki talk:Edittools]] Thanks for your continued contributions --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:47, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

==Duplicate Entries==
To decrease the number of repetitive entries, I think we should start using the #REDIRECT tag more often. For example, check out the changes I made to the ''Hill of Tears'' and related entries via the ''Recent changes'' option. Most of the related entries, such as ''Haudh-en-Ndengin'', were just a recap of the main entry. I think using the #REDIRECT will cut down on time, hosting space, and allow editors to focus on quality. What ya think? --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 01:33, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:I think this is probably for the best as it gets confusing having so many multiple stub articles and one main article. The tricky part is going to be choosing a primary article to use. Do you use the [[Quenya]] name, [[Sindarin]] name, [[Dwarvish]] name, [[Westron]] name, most used name, birth name, etc etc. I'm wondering if we should put the redirect pages in the categories...it might cause confusion because you would have [[Gaffer Gamgee]] and [[Old Gaffer]] etc but at least if people were searching for a specific term and didn't know its other meanings, they could find it alright. Thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:38, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

== Please delete a page ==
[[Talk:Sauron Defeated]] is spam, so please delete it. - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rotemliss rotemliss] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rotemliss Talk]) 04:42, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Rotemliss, thanks for the heads up, page is deleted. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:07, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Would you please delete [[Caitimo]], it's an incorrect redirect page. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 21:24, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

:Done. Next time go ahead and add the <nowiki>{{Afd}}</nowiki> template, that way we can work on getting a standard for a deletion process. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:53, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

== User talk:Hyarion vs. Community Forums ==
I think many of the entries here should rather have been posted in the Community Forums, as they concern Community matters and not User:Hyarion matters. Mb you should transfer them? --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 01:27, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good idea. I'll transfer them right now. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:12, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

== Double Check Nasmith Images ==
Hyarion, you need to go through all the Nasmith images you uploaded, as there are duplicates. For example, ''The Pillars of the Kings'' and ''The Argonath'' are the same image, as are ''Illuin, Lamp of the Valar'' and ''Illuin - Lamp of the Valar''. Thanks. {{unsigned|Ebakunin}}

:There are a couple duplicates and a couple which are relatively similar but different pieces. What I'm hoping to do is go back through them and state the material used to make them, and which calendars/books they appeared in. Thanks for keeping an eye out. In the future if you ever see a duplicate just go ahead and add <nowiki>{{afd}}</nowiki> to the lesser quality image. Thanks for all your help. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:55, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

==Favorite Race pics==
Don't worry about cropping those images for the Favorite Race templates - I can do them easily and quickly. I should have them done by the end of the day. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:20, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:Ah that would be great! Thanks :) Once you upload them that will give me an incentive to finish all the infoboxes for the favorite races as I think we only have a couple done. They will look much better with those cool icons than the boring text that is currently there. Thanks again. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:24, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::Done!--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:37, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Awesome, I've made the basic templates, but they need some major color overhauls. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:10, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::::It would also be nice if the text was larger - perhaps in a different font?--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 12:44, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::::That's possible. I want to try and make all the userboxes have a standard such as the [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Userbox_templates Star Wars wiki], lets try changing the background/text color, or maybe even adding another sentence, if its still too small then we can make the font bigger or change the font style, though we have to be careful the font style is standard on a good majority of computers. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:51, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

== Browser Crossover Problems ==
Hyarion, I do all my browsing on Firefox, but when I recently checked the site on IE I noticed that the _ character does not display in < code > sections. Compare [[Amrod]] in FF and IE. Is there anyway to fix the problem? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 00:10, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:Uhoh, what has that darn Microsoft broken now, I use FF as well. Looks like your right, we can use dashes for now, which reminds me I need to install the template system that Wikipedia uses so we can use a fancier family tree system; an example at the bottom of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrimbor this page]. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:21, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

::I could just create the family trees and save them as .jpg images, then upload them. I can do that easily, if you wish. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 06:52, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Hm, let's hold off on that for now. I'm afraid if we have them all as .jpgs that would be a lot of work and we wouldn't be able to alter anything. Maybe if we finalized all the trees with the new templates then we could make images for other sites to use or something. Good idea though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:38, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

== Family trees ==
I tried out the [[template:familytree|familytree template]] and couldn't get it to work. Has anyone else had any luck with it? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 14:48, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
:Heh ya, I only halfway got it working so its not just you, there's a few more templates I have to make as its fairly complex. I'll see if I can get it working tonight, I'll let you know when its up and operational. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

== Tim Hildebrandt ==
Hyarion, would you please make the featured image one of [[Tim Hildebrandt]]? He's one of the most important artists for Tolkien's work and his passing should be featured. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 11:15, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

:Great idea, doing so now. I'll make him the featured artist on our [[Gallery]] page, just in case anyone knows about it, heh. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:44, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

::Is there any way to make the gallery page better known? As well, is there any way for you to enable one or two of us to change the featured picture each day? Some pictures last for weeks on the Main Page. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 20:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::The goal is to start putting links on the left side to main pages, such as the ''Gallery'', but it still needs a lot of work before we do that. Thanks for reminding me about the Featured Image, what I'm going to do is separate the main page into sections and probably allow anyone to edit the Image section. Though eventually what I'd like to do is have the Featured Image and Featured Article be on the same subject, and we would vote on the Featured Article. The entire main page could use a redesign if you ask me. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:44, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

== Quote Template ==

The quote template doesn't work properly when the quote contains a hard return; I had to leave the hard return out of the quote in the [[Talk:Serpent Lord]] discussion (before ''Then Théoden was aware of him''). It also doesn't react on the indentation by the use of colons. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 08:32, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

:Heyo, just got back from a small vacation hence my lack of edits lately. The quote template is kind of a hack, hopefully we can have more efficient means later on. Try using <nowiki><br /></nowiki> for a new line and maybe <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> for a tab. I'll look into an easier solution. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:42, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

== Increase in spam ==
Hyarion, I am wondering about the number of Spammers at a time. I remember when I first joined you were blocking spammers and vandals daily. Then all of a sudden it stopped. Now it has started up again. Are there like spammer clubs where they all chose to target a certain wiki? Or is it one person with access to many computers? Just curious. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:24, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

:Thanks for bringing this up as I've been meaning to mention the situation. Before we had no spam protection so everyday I was having to revert vandals but then I installed an extension which forces anonymous users who post external links to verify they aren't a bot by solving a simple math problem such as 1+1=?. This had solved 99% of the bot spam to date, but unfortunately as the recent bot was spamming numbers and no links, it became difficult to catch. It looks like the bot has moved on but if it continues I'll look into another extension where we block someone from specifically adding a bunch of numbers. None of the attacks are actual humans against us, they are simple bots that use a proxy server to hide their IP and spam random wikis. Now the funny spam is the stuff where actual humans try to screw with articles, I don't mind those as much :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:50, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

=="Unfinished" template==

Hyarion, could you please create an "unfinished" template? It should say something like this: '''''Unfinished'''; this article is incomplete. You can help Tolkien Gateway by completing this article''. On longer more time-consuming articles (such as the [[Fall of Gondolin]]) I noticed the need, and right now would like it as I work on the [[Lay of Leithian cantos]]. By the way, which [[Tilkal]] image do you prefer (see the forums for User Awards)? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:24, 10 July 2006 (EDT)

== Thanks! ==

Hey Hyarion. I just want to say thank you for taking me under your wing, so to speak. I greatly appriciate it! Thank you! -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:46, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

:No worries mate :) Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions and thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:14, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

== cool ==
the tengwar text is really neat! not sure how to install it though. No problem about the maps. it does feel like that with the wikis. I guess its the same with alot of subjects, not just tolkien [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 04:36, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

==English or American spellings?==

This question came to my mind when you spelled harbors "''harbours''". Should we generally spell things in the English way, since Tolkien was English? Or the American spellings, such as jail instead of gaol, and center instead of centre? I am an American, but I personally don't care, as long as nobody changes my spelling on the talk and forum pages. . . --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:12, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

:Heh, yet another thing I have been debating in my head and have yet to come to a conclusion about. Personally I'm probably more for the American spellings because I'm an American and that is the standard for most wikis though their basis isn't on an English author. I had no clue gaol was a variant of jail so it is certainly going to be a challenge for me if we don't use the American usages. While categories/titles are obviously going to be important decisions I think if we redirect the English spellings we should be okay. There is no sense in altering text in the talk/forum and I suppose we can leave the article content as-is, though we should probably standardize it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

::I'd say: use the English spelling, as the language we use here is ''English'' ;-) So, if article titles are spelled the American way, they should be redirected to the "correct" English spelling (unless it's the name of a company or magazine or whatever). --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 05:45, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

:::I'd just like to comment that at the time that Webster's dictionary (the standard for American English) was published in 1828, both Americans and Englishmen spelled their words in any way they wished, though it is true that some spellings (such as ''centre'') were the most accepted by the British aristocracy. American spellings were actually "officially" established before "English" spellings. And now, I believe that around the world American spellings are more common. The only weight for the argument for English spellings is that Tolkien himself was English. At the moment I am neutral on the subject. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:28, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

::::Just don't write "Gandalf the ''Gray''". [[User:Rog|Rog]] 09:29, 26 August 2006 (EDT)

== Image copyright issues ==

Just wondering, aren't we violating any copyright issues with all the images we have? Do/Did you actually get permission from the artists to upload their works here? We do credit them, though. (I uploaded a new [[Jenny Dolfen]] Legolas image, BTW... Hope it's not copyright violation. [[:Image:Jenny_Dolfen_-_Legolas2.jpg]] [[User:Rog|Rog]] 05:49, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

:Hello Rog, thanks for being cautious. A large percentage of images uploaded did receive specific permission from the artist but I do not believe [[Jenny Dolfen]] has yet been contacted. I believe her site states it is fine to use the images for non-commercial/non-profit which is what we are but we are acquiring quite a few so I'll go ahead and shoot her off an email today just to double check. Thanks! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:00, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

== Maps ==

Hyarion,
On Tuckborough.net they have some pretty good maps. Maybe we should get a hold of the user and ask him where he got those maps from. Since we have had copyright problems in the past I thought maybe he could help. Dwarf Lord

:The tricky part is that [[Maps]] are considered infringing on the [[Tolkien Estate]]'s copyrights even if they are fan created and released for free. Every single site I have seen that hosted maps has been shut down or forced to remove the images unfortunately which is why I'm reluctant to upload any. Even Wikipedia is currently in the process of removing all of their Tolkien-inspired maps. In the future I do wish to contact TE directly regarding this matter but I sincerely doubt the result would be positive. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:00, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

: That's too bad. What a bunch of cheap-skates. Dwarf Lord

User talk:Hyarion

2006-08-24T10:29:32Z

Rog: /* Image copyright issues */

==Need Help With Footnotes!==
Hyarion, I need help getting the footnotes working on the [[Chamber of Mazarbul]] page. Could you help? Thanks so much.

-Old Took

:I saw you added that on the [[Talk:Chamber of Mazarbul|talk page]] but wasn't sure what you meant as the links work fine for me. What doesn't seem to be working for you? When I click them it sends the page down to align the top line with the relevant footnote, and when you click the up arrow it will jump you back up to the in-text citation. Am I missing something? Keep in mind the footnotes aren't very effective as the page can only scroll so much, thus rending it incapable of going all the way down to the correct reference. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:24, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

::Sorry, it was a browser problem of mine. Everything's fine now! -Old Took

==Question==
Hello, Hyarion!

I hope this is the right place to send messages - if not, please erase this.

Well, I was suprised to see that I was the second person to register in here, but that's even better: there's plenty of room to fill in.

I found these pages - as you might guess - via the Finnish Kontu forum, where the administrator Merri had posted a message informing about possibilities for co-operation. So I hope there will be more Finns to register in. I'll send my contributions when I have time to do that - quite irregularly, I'm afraid, but let's hope the best.

yours, Tik

By the way, how does one start writing a new article to which there exists no previous
link? I couldn't figure that out, being quite unaccustomed to Wiki. The only way I could start writing a new article was to edit a previous one and add there a new internal link and continue editing that one.

:I have a feeling that will be a common one (because I had to figure that one out myself) so I'll post that on the help page. All you have to do is type in your address bar, something like http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Title of Page (it will even insert the underscores for you) and you will be directed to a page that does not exist and you can edit it that way.

:Also, something I broke my own rule on, its a good idea to type a 'signature' when adding a comment to a discussion, otherwise no one knows who wrote it. I wish mediawiki would do it automatically, but until I fix that, a good standard to use is like mine below, just type "&mdash ;" but take the space out between the h and the semicolon...I can't figure out how to show those literally. You can also use -- it's just a matter of preference. And then type 4 ~ in a row. The first one prints out your name, second the time, 3rd the date, and 4th the timezone I believe.

:EDIT: Hm...looks like your one step ahead of me, on your pages, you have exactly that.

:EDIT: On second thought I'm going to move this to User:Hyarion because I'll probably keep this page to say what the English translation of Hyarion is. -- [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:41, 12 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== Answer To Your Question ==
A lot of my stuff is at my LJ, [http://www.livejournal.com/users/brighty11/ ~~Black Sun~~], and some is at Parma, OF and Elfsheen, but a lot is just on my hard disk. :)

— [[User:BrightSideoftheDark|Brighty]] 6:22, 25 Aug 2005 (EDT)

== Bokkie Moans ==
Hey

Can you try and make a [[Special:Sandbox]] for us users to try stuff out in?
makes editing family lines and such easier...

I've spotted a difference of opinion... 8-)
I've been trying to remove all the '''Hobbits Category''' entries from the different hobbits, but I see you add them still... It did make it easier for me to check who had been edited...
I guess we want them back?

* Ah, hehe. That is something I was debating. I wonder if it is possible to have a 'Hobbits' cateogry and in it, list the hobbit family names, but have it also contain a list of all the hobbits since those are sub-categories. I guess when it comes down to it I just want a page that lists all the Hobbits, whatever way works I'm fine with. Sorry I totally forgot you were removing those, heh, I'll look into it to see what way will work. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:44, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)
::I'll leave the Hobbit category be then. I guess it would be just as useful to have all the hobbits in one big list, as it was. Just add a category for the specific family too, like you did 8-)
I've got my doubts about double pages like [[Sam Gamgee]] and [[Samwise Gamgee]].
It basically is one and the same person, only a nickname or shortform. I would rather see 1 article with a list of "aliases"... --[[User:Bokkie|Bokkie]] 17:42, 14 Sep 2005 (EDT)
:I understand where you're coming from and I'll keep thinking about it, but for the time being I still say that it would be more beneficial to have the names on seperate pages, because each name has a specific meaning. For example [[Aragorn Elessar]] and [[Strider]] and such, you can go into great detail about the different names and people who called him that, places he used it, and the [[Elvish]] translations along with the old english meanings, etc. This would tend to drag down the [[Aragorn Elessar]] page to list all the names/information on it. For things like [[Sam Gamgee]] there is not going to be as much information to talk about it, but just to keep the same system I think it's best to keep it. In the future we can list when he is referred to as 'Sam' and by whom. Just my opinion though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:15, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)

== Sandbox ==
Good idea, I'll add that to the to-do list while I upgrade the new wiki software, which should greatly improve the left menu, I'm going to be able to add things like links to the letters A-Z or links to races or to whatever we want and in different tables, if you have any suggestions let me know. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:39, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)

==What Happened to Me?==
This is Brighty - what happened to me? I tried to log in and it said I don't exist. Weird.
::Were you using "BrightSideoftheDark"? Your still on the userlist, odd. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:51, 3 November 2005 (EST)

== Cirith Gorgor and related bands ==
Hey Hyarion,

Like Blind Guardian not all songs relate to Tolkien, but the ones that do stick to theme. Do you want bands to stick with just a band page?
:Honestly it's up to you, that's the best part, no one person has full control and we as a community can make decisions, but with the [[Blind Guardian]] page I just copied that from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Guardian for now and have yet to remove the unnecessary links, which was my fault because you were basing your articles off that. With Blind Guardian, as with [[Cirith Gorgor (band)|Cirith Gorgor]] it is tricky because the [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] theme is greater in some albums and songs than others so there is no easy fine line. In the end more information is always better than less and if in the future we deem the articles as unnecessary it won't take any effort to remove them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:05, 28 November 2005 (EST)
::Ah ok. I was gonna just throw up a band page but saw all the information on Blind Guardian I figure I better not slack and add some more :P I'll clean it up and keep it that way in the future.

== Barrowdowns Mb ==
Hey Hyarion,

I like your idea about the barrowdowns.com MB, I say lets do it.-Goldfinger

==Spam==
Hi Hyarion Firstly love this site! Secondly we have a troll adding porn links: Hfskodweyb I have edited and deleted the nonesense twice but it reappears. you may need to block this spammer {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}
:Good morning Sancho! Yes unfortunately we do get bots from time to time. Luckily they are just trying to gain PageRank so they normally try to hide the links. In an upcoming patch we will be forcing unregistered users to type in some random numbers/letters from an image to stop the bots. This one managed to register which makes it a bit more difficult to stop but the best we can do is add an extension that only allows people to edit X amount of pages in X amount of minutes which I'm looking into as well. Thanks for keeping an eye on it.
--[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 10:57, 14 April 2006 (EDT)

== Ñoldor vs. Noldor ==
Hello. You asked about the use of ñ, and the answer's pretty complicated. First let me say the I changed the n to ñ just to be consistent in the text - I really don't care much one way or the other. And here's the long story behind it all...

Ñ is used as a nasal plosive by Tolkien, so it would sound something like "ng" in "song" or "king". This is Quenya in its purist form. The Vanyar in Aman would say "Ñoldor", not "Noldor". Occasionally you will even see "Ñoldor" spelled "Ngoldor". However, in Middle Earth, the mixing of languages changed pronounciations, so by the Third Age an elf would just as likely say "Noldor", as "Ñoldor". Older pronounciations did continue into the Third Age; for example the name "Elrond". Quenya in the Third Age tended to drop the "d" at the end of words, but Elrond was always referred to by his archaic name, rather than by "Elron".

You wanted citations, but I can't name them off the top of my head. Check out this page: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/ndnn.htm for more info. He's a linguist that knows his stuff and where I got my knowledge of Quenya.

So there you go, the sordid tale of "ñ". The whole thing comes down to whether the text is referring to ancient "Ñoldor" or the "Noldor" of the Third Age. If a final decision needs to be made, I would use "Noldor" throughout the site and mention in passing that "Ñoldor" is the older spelling and pronounciation of the word.

Hope this helps. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

== More on Spam ==
In regards to the spam comment above: since the site uses MediaWiki, it's very easy to disallow anonymous editing. While it will slightly slow down the growth of the site, it adds a layer of protection that a wiki needs to stay relevant to its audience. Few bots can handle the complexity of registering, especially if email confirmation is required. It's a bit of a pain for casual users, but it's worth it in the long run. Just my two cents. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

:Thanks for your input. While I think at this point in time disallowing anonymous editing goes a bit against the wiki definition, a new version of the engine has been released which forces anonymous editors to type a randomly generated word which would stop the spam bots rather effectively. Email confirmation is something which currently is required but should bots continue to register then we will require it (or force a word verification on register). --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:19, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Requested articles ==
If it is possible, it might be good to allow those who have not logged in request a page or request a page’s expansion. [[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:05, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

:That's definitely something I've had in the queue for a while. I'll try and add that today, on second thought I'll just add that right now. Even if they aren't logged in they can still make whatever page they want, and just add the <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki> tag to let us know it needs to be worked on. But I still think we need a Request an article and maybe like you said a request a page's expansion. Maybe we can just add the stub tag if we want it to be expanded, and then have a "Expansion of the week" where each week we focus on a stub and work on rewriting it and making it better. Thanks for the input. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:16, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Uploading pictures ==
I Have been trying to add a photo, but I get the message ".jpg]] is not a valid picture format"

What am I doing wrong ( perhaps you can give an 'idiot's guide' on adding photos. (The one I wish to upload is saved in my hard drive) {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:Odd, I've never had any problems with uploading images. What is the destination filename you are using? From here it looks like you are maybe typing the destination filename as "<nowiki>[[Blah.jpg]]</nowiki>" when all you really need to say is "Blah.jpg", no need for any brackets. Let me know if that helps. When I upload images I don't even bother altering the destination filename as it will automatically insert whatever your file is called on your computer. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:52, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

::Ok that worked, but haven't any idea of how to link it to the relevant page. Can you move it please? {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:::Great! I'll go ahead and show you how to link and let you do it, better to teach than to do :) Here is an example of the image at [[Alan Lee]]:

:::<nowiki>[[Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg|thumb|200px|Image of ''Alan Lee'' courtesy of [http://www.gregmartinphoto.com/ Greg Martin Photgraphy]]]</nowiki>

:::The first part "<nowiki>Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg</nowiki>" is your image name, make sure to include the .jpg What I usually do is go to the actual image and copy the title. Then if you want it to be a thumbnail, which I usually do, I add |thumb, then if its not the right size you can specify how many pixels you want, |200px to |300px is usually around the average. Then you can specify the caption. After that add your closing brackets and you are good to go. Let me know if you have any questions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:11, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

==Non-standard Text==
Hyarion,

I was hoping the wiki could add a list of non-standard letters at the bottom of the edit page, like the list featured in Wikipedia. It would help with First Age entries, where there are a lot of accents. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 02:15, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Ebakunin, this is a feature which I've been meaning to implement, thanks for reminding me. If you haven't already noticed I've added the extension and you can now insert special characters :) I don't think we need as many characters as Wikipedia so if you see any unnecessary ones feel free to remove them from [[MediaWiki talk:Edittools]] Thanks for your continued contributions --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:47, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

==Duplicate Entries==
To decrease the number of repetitive entries, I think we should start using the #REDIRECT tag more often. For example, check out the changes I made to the ''Hill of Tears'' and related entries via the ''Recent changes'' option. Most of the related entries, such as ''Haudh-en-Ndengin'', were just a recap of the main entry. I think using the #REDIRECT will cut down on time, hosting space, and allow editors to focus on quality. What ya think? --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 01:33, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:I think this is probably for the best as it gets confusing having so many multiple stub articles and one main article. The tricky part is going to be choosing a primary article to use. Do you use the [[Quenya]] name, [[Sindarin]] name, [[Dwarvish]] name, [[Westron]] name, most used name, birth name, etc etc. I'm wondering if we should put the redirect pages in the categories...it might cause confusion because you would have [[Gaffer Gamgee]] and [[Old Gaffer]] etc but at least if people were searching for a specific term and didn't know its other meanings, they could find it alright. Thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:38, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

== Please delete a page ==
[[Talk:Sauron Defeated]] is spam, so please delete it. - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rotemliss rotemliss] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rotemliss Talk]) 04:42, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Rotemliss, thanks for the heads up, page is deleted. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:07, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Would you please delete [[Caitimo]], it's an incorrect redirect page. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 21:24, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

:Done. Next time go ahead and add the <nowiki>{{Afd}}</nowiki> template, that way we can work on getting a standard for a deletion process. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:53, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

== User talk:Hyarion vs. Community Forums ==
I think many of the entries here should rather have been posted in the Community Forums, as they concern Community matters and not User:Hyarion matters. Mb you should transfer them? --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 01:27, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good idea. I'll transfer them right now. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:12, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

== Double Check Nasmith Images ==
Hyarion, you need to go through all the Nasmith images you uploaded, as there are duplicates. For example, ''The Pillars of the Kings'' and ''The Argonath'' are the same image, as are ''Illuin, Lamp of the Valar'' and ''Illuin - Lamp of the Valar''. Thanks. {{unsigned|Ebakunin}}

:There are a couple duplicates and a couple which are relatively similar but different pieces. What I'm hoping to do is go back through them and state the material used to make them, and which calendars/books they appeared in. Thanks for keeping an eye out. In the future if you ever see a duplicate just go ahead and add <nowiki>{{afd}}</nowiki> to the lesser quality image. Thanks for all your help. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:55, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

==Favorite Race pics==
Don't worry about cropping those images for the Favorite Race templates - I can do them easily and quickly. I should have them done by the end of the day. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:20, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:Ah that would be great! Thanks :) Once you upload them that will give me an incentive to finish all the infoboxes for the favorite races as I think we only have a couple done. They will look much better with those cool icons than the boring text that is currently there. Thanks again. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:24, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::Done!--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:37, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Awesome, I've made the basic templates, but they need some major color overhauls. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:10, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::::It would also be nice if the text was larger - perhaps in a different font?--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 12:44, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::::That's possible. I want to try and make all the userboxes have a standard such as the [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Userbox_templates Star Wars wiki], lets try changing the background/text color, or maybe even adding another sentence, if its still too small then we can make the font bigger or change the font style, though we have to be careful the font style is standard on a good majority of computers. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:51, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

== Browser Crossover Problems ==
Hyarion, I do all my browsing on Firefox, but when I recently checked the site on IE I noticed that the _ character does not display in < code > sections. Compare [[Amrod]] in FF and IE. Is there anyway to fix the problem? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 00:10, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:Uhoh, what has that darn Microsoft broken now, I use FF as well. Looks like your right, we can use dashes for now, which reminds me I need to install the template system that Wikipedia uses so we can use a fancier family tree system; an example at the bottom of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrimbor this page]. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:21, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

::I could just create the family trees and save them as .jpg images, then upload them. I can do that easily, if you wish. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 06:52, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Hm, let's hold off on that for now. I'm afraid if we have them all as .jpgs that would be a lot of work and we wouldn't be able to alter anything. Maybe if we finalized all the trees with the new templates then we could make images for other sites to use or something. Good idea though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:38, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

== Family trees ==
I tried out the [[template:familytree|familytree template]] and couldn't get it to work. Has anyone else had any luck with it? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 14:48, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
:Heh ya, I only halfway got it working so its not just you, there's a few more templates I have to make as its fairly complex. I'll see if I can get it working tonight, I'll let you know when its up and operational. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

== Tim Hildebrandt ==
Hyarion, would you please make the featured image one of [[Tim Hildebrandt]]? He's one of the most important artists for Tolkien's work and his passing should be featured. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 11:15, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

:Great idea, doing so now. I'll make him the featured artist on our [[Gallery]] page, just in case anyone knows about it, heh. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:44, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

::Is there any way to make the gallery page better known? As well, is there any way for you to enable one or two of us to change the featured picture each day? Some pictures last for weeks on the Main Page. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 20:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::The goal is to start putting links on the left side to main pages, such as the ''Gallery'', but it still needs a lot of work before we do that. Thanks for reminding me about the Featured Image, what I'm going to do is separate the main page into sections and probably allow anyone to edit the Image section. Though eventually what I'd like to do is have the Featured Image and Featured Article be on the same subject, and we would vote on the Featured Article. The entire main page could use a redesign if you ask me. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:44, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

== Quote Template ==

The quote template doesn't work properly when the quote contains a hard return; I had to leave the hard return out of the quote in the [[Talk:Serpent Lord]] discussion (before ''Then Théoden was aware of him''). It also doesn't react on the indentation by the use of colons. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 08:32, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

:Heyo, just got back from a small vacation hence my lack of edits lately. The quote template is kind of a hack, hopefully we can have more efficient means later on. Try using <nowiki><br /></nowiki> for a new line and maybe <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> for a tab. I'll look into an easier solution. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:42, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

== Increase in spam ==
Hyarion, I am wondering about the number of Spammers at a time. I remember when I first joined you were blocking spammers and vandals daily. Then all of a sudden it stopped. Now it has started up again. Are there like spammer clubs where they all chose to target a certain wiki? Or is it one person with access to many computers? Just curious. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:24, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

:Thanks for bringing this up as I've been meaning to mention the situation. Before we had no spam protection so everyday I was having to revert vandals but then I installed an extension which forces anonymous users who post external links to verify they aren't a bot by solving a simple math problem such as 1+1=?. This had solved 99% of the bot spam to date, but unfortunately as the recent bot was spamming numbers and no links, it became difficult to catch. It looks like the bot has moved on but if it continues I'll look into another extension where we block someone from specifically adding a bunch of numbers. None of the attacks are actual humans against us, they are simple bots that use a proxy server to hide their IP and spam random wikis. Now the funny spam is the stuff where actual humans try to screw with articles, I don't mind those as much :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:50, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

=="Unfinished" template==

Hyarion, could you please create an "unfinished" template? It should say something like this: '''''Unfinished'''; this article is incomplete. You can help Tolkien Gateway by completing this article''. On longer more time-consuming articles (such as the [[Fall of Gondolin]]) I noticed the need, and right now would like it as I work on the [[Lay of Leithian cantos]]. By the way, which [[Tilkal]] image do you prefer (see the forums for User Awards)? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:24, 10 July 2006 (EDT)

== Thanks! ==

Hey Hyarion. I just want to say thank you for taking me under your wing, so to speak. I greatly appriciate it! Thank you! -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:46, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

:No worries mate :) Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions and thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:14, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

== cool ==
the tengwar text is really neat! not sure how to install it though. No problem about the maps. it does feel like that with the wikis. I guess its the same with alot of subjects, not just tolkien [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 04:36, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

==English or American spellings?==

This question came to my mind when you spelled harbors "''harbours''". Should we generally spell things in the English way, since Tolkien was English? Or the American spellings, such as jail instead of gaol, and center instead of centre? I am an American, but I personally don't care, as long as nobody changes my spelling on the talk and forum pages. . . --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:12, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

:Heh, yet another thing I have been debating in my head and have yet to come to a conclusion about. Personally I'm probably more for the American spellings because I'm an American and that is the standard for most wikis though their basis isn't on an English author. I had no clue gaol was a variant of jail so it is certainly going to be a challenge for me if we don't use the American usages. While categories/titles are obviously going to be important decisions I think if we redirect the English spellings we should be okay. There is no sense in altering text in the talk/forum and I suppose we can leave the article content as-is, though we should probably standardize it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

::I'd say: use the English spelling, as the language we use here is ''English'' ;-) So, if article titles are spelled the American way, they should be redirected to the "correct" English spelling (unless it's the name of a company or magazine or whatever). --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 05:45, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

:::I'd just like to comment that at the time that Webster's dictionary (the standard for American English) was published in 1828, both Americans and Englishmen spelled their words in any way they wished, though it is true that some spellings (such as ''centre'') were the most accepted by the British aristocracy. American spellings were actually "officially" established before "English" spellings. And now, I believe that around the world American spellings are more common. The only weight for the argument for English spellings is that Tolkien himself was English. At the moment I am neutral on the subject. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:28, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

== Image copyright issues ==

Just wondering, aren't we violating any copyright issues with all the images we have? Do/Did you actually get permission from the artists to upload their works here? We do credit them, though. (I uploaded a new [[Jenny Dolfen]] Legolas image, BTW... Hope it's not copyright violation. [[:Image:Jenny_Dolfen_-_Legolas2.jpg]] [[User:Rog|Rog]] 05:49, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

User talk:Hyarion

2006-08-24T10:28:38Z

Rog: /* Image copyright issues */

==Need Help With Footnotes!==
Hyarion, I need help getting the footnotes working on the [[Chamber of Mazarbul]] page. Could you help? Thanks so much.

-Old Took

:I saw you added that on the [[Talk:Chamber of Mazarbul|talk page]] but wasn't sure what you meant as the links work fine for me. What doesn't seem to be working for you? When I click them it sends the page down to align the top line with the relevant footnote, and when you click the up arrow it will jump you back up to the in-text citation. Am I missing something? Keep in mind the footnotes aren't very effective as the page can only scroll so much, thus rending it incapable of going all the way down to the correct reference. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:24, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

::Sorry, it was a browser problem of mine. Everything's fine now! -Old Took

==Question==
Hello, Hyarion!

I hope this is the right place to send messages - if not, please erase this.

Well, I was suprised to see that I was the second person to register in here, but that's even better: there's plenty of room to fill in.

I found these pages - as you might guess - via the Finnish Kontu forum, where the administrator Merri had posted a message informing about possibilities for co-operation. So I hope there will be more Finns to register in. I'll send my contributions when I have time to do that - quite irregularly, I'm afraid, but let's hope the best.

yours, Tik

By the way, how does one start writing a new article to which there exists no previous
link? I couldn't figure that out, being quite unaccustomed to Wiki. The only way I could start writing a new article was to edit a previous one and add there a new internal link and continue editing that one.

:I have a feeling that will be a common one (because I had to figure that one out myself) so I'll post that on the help page. All you have to do is type in your address bar, something like http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Title of Page (it will even insert the underscores for you) and you will be directed to a page that does not exist and you can edit it that way.

:Also, something I broke my own rule on, its a good idea to type a 'signature' when adding a comment to a discussion, otherwise no one knows who wrote it. I wish mediawiki would do it automatically, but until I fix that, a good standard to use is like mine below, just type "&mdash ;" but take the space out between the h and the semicolon...I can't figure out how to show those literally. You can also use -- it's just a matter of preference. And then type 4 ~ in a row. The first one prints out your name, second the time, 3rd the date, and 4th the timezone I believe.

:EDIT: Hm...looks like your one step ahead of me, on your pages, you have exactly that.

:EDIT: On second thought I'm going to move this to User:Hyarion because I'll probably keep this page to say what the English translation of Hyarion is. -- [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:41, 12 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== Answer To Your Question ==
A lot of my stuff is at my LJ, [http://www.livejournal.com/users/brighty11/ ~~Black Sun~~], and some is at Parma, OF and Elfsheen, but a lot is just on my hard disk. :)

— [[User:BrightSideoftheDark|Brighty]] 6:22, 25 Aug 2005 (EDT)

== Bokkie Moans ==
Hey

Can you try and make a [[Special:Sandbox]] for us users to try stuff out in?
makes editing family lines and such easier...

I've spotted a difference of opinion... 8-)
I've been trying to remove all the '''Hobbits Category''' entries from the different hobbits, but I see you add them still... It did make it easier for me to check who had been edited...
I guess we want them back?

* Ah, hehe. That is something I was debating. I wonder if it is possible to have a 'Hobbits' cateogry and in it, list the hobbit family names, but have it also contain a list of all the hobbits since those are sub-categories. I guess when it comes down to it I just want a page that lists all the Hobbits, whatever way works I'm fine with. Sorry I totally forgot you were removing those, heh, I'll look into it to see what way will work. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:44, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)
::I'll leave the Hobbit category be then. I guess it would be just as useful to have all the hobbits in one big list, as it was. Just add a category for the specific family too, like you did 8-)
I've got my doubts about double pages like [[Sam Gamgee]] and [[Samwise Gamgee]].
It basically is one and the same person, only a nickname or shortform. I would rather see 1 article with a list of "aliases"... --[[User:Bokkie|Bokkie]] 17:42, 14 Sep 2005 (EDT)
:I understand where you're coming from and I'll keep thinking about it, but for the time being I still say that it would be more beneficial to have the names on seperate pages, because each name has a specific meaning. For example [[Aragorn Elessar]] and [[Strider]] and such, you can go into great detail about the different names and people who called him that, places he used it, and the [[Elvish]] translations along with the old english meanings, etc. This would tend to drag down the [[Aragorn Elessar]] page to list all the names/information on it. For things like [[Sam Gamgee]] there is not going to be as much information to talk about it, but just to keep the same system I think it's best to keep it. In the future we can list when he is referred to as 'Sam' and by whom. Just my opinion though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:15, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)

== Sandbox ==
Good idea, I'll add that to the to-do list while I upgrade the new wiki software, which should greatly improve the left menu, I'm going to be able to add things like links to the letters A-Z or links to races or to whatever we want and in different tables, if you have any suggestions let me know. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:39, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)

==What Happened to Me?==
This is Brighty - what happened to me? I tried to log in and it said I don't exist. Weird.
::Were you using "BrightSideoftheDark"? Your still on the userlist, odd. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:51, 3 November 2005 (EST)

== Cirith Gorgor and related bands ==
Hey Hyarion,

Like Blind Guardian not all songs relate to Tolkien, but the ones that do stick to theme. Do you want bands to stick with just a band page?
:Honestly it's up to you, that's the best part, no one person has full control and we as a community can make decisions, but with the [[Blind Guardian]] page I just copied that from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Guardian for now and have yet to remove the unnecessary links, which was my fault because you were basing your articles off that. With Blind Guardian, as with [[Cirith Gorgor (band)|Cirith Gorgor]] it is tricky because the [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] theme is greater in some albums and songs than others so there is no easy fine line. In the end more information is always better than less and if in the future we deem the articles as unnecessary it won't take any effort to remove them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:05, 28 November 2005 (EST)
::Ah ok. I was gonna just throw up a band page but saw all the information on Blind Guardian I figure I better not slack and add some more :P I'll clean it up and keep it that way in the future.

== Barrowdowns Mb ==
Hey Hyarion,

I like your idea about the barrowdowns.com MB, I say lets do it.-Goldfinger

==Spam==
Hi Hyarion Firstly love this site! Secondly we have a troll adding porn links: Hfskodweyb I have edited and deleted the nonesense twice but it reappears. you may need to block this spammer {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}
:Good morning Sancho! Yes unfortunately we do get bots from time to time. Luckily they are just trying to gain PageRank so they normally try to hide the links. In an upcoming patch we will be forcing unregistered users to type in some random numbers/letters from an image to stop the bots. This one managed to register which makes it a bit more difficult to stop but the best we can do is add an extension that only allows people to edit X amount of pages in X amount of minutes which I'm looking into as well. Thanks for keeping an eye on it.
--[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 10:57, 14 April 2006 (EDT)

== Ñoldor vs. Noldor ==
Hello. You asked about the use of ñ, and the answer's pretty complicated. First let me say the I changed the n to ñ just to be consistent in the text - I really don't care much one way or the other. And here's the long story behind it all...

Ñ is used as a nasal plosive by Tolkien, so it would sound something like "ng" in "song" or "king". This is Quenya in its purist form. The Vanyar in Aman would say "Ñoldor", not "Noldor". Occasionally you will even see "Ñoldor" spelled "Ngoldor". However, in Middle Earth, the mixing of languages changed pronounciations, so by the Third Age an elf would just as likely say "Noldor", as "Ñoldor". Older pronounciations did continue into the Third Age; for example the name "Elrond". Quenya in the Third Age tended to drop the "d" at the end of words, but Elrond was always referred to by his archaic name, rather than by "Elron".

You wanted citations, but I can't name them off the top of my head. Check out this page: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/ndnn.htm for more info. He's a linguist that knows his stuff and where I got my knowledge of Quenya.

So there you go, the sordid tale of "ñ". The whole thing comes down to whether the text is referring to ancient "Ñoldor" or the "Noldor" of the Third Age. If a final decision needs to be made, I would use "Noldor" throughout the site and mention in passing that "Ñoldor" is the older spelling and pronounciation of the word.

Hope this helps. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

== More on Spam ==
In regards to the spam comment above: since the site uses MediaWiki, it's very easy to disallow anonymous editing. While it will slightly slow down the growth of the site, it adds a layer of protection that a wiki needs to stay relevant to its audience. Few bots can handle the complexity of registering, especially if email confirmation is required. It's a bit of a pain for casual users, but it's worth it in the long run. Just my two cents. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

:Thanks for your input. While I think at this point in time disallowing anonymous editing goes a bit against the wiki definition, a new version of the engine has been released which forces anonymous editors to type a randomly generated word which would stop the spam bots rather effectively. Email confirmation is something which currently is required but should bots continue to register then we will require it (or force a word verification on register). --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:19, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Requested articles ==
If it is possible, it might be good to allow those who have not logged in request a page or request a page’s expansion. [[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:05, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

:That's definitely something I've had in the queue for a while. I'll try and add that today, on second thought I'll just add that right now. Even if they aren't logged in they can still make whatever page they want, and just add the <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki> tag to let us know it needs to be worked on. But I still think we need a Request an article and maybe like you said a request a page's expansion. Maybe we can just add the stub tag if we want it to be expanded, and then have a "Expansion of the week" where each week we focus on a stub and work on rewriting it and making it better. Thanks for the input. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:16, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Uploading pictures ==
I Have been trying to add a photo, but I get the message ".jpg]] is not a valid picture format"

What am I doing wrong ( perhaps you can give an 'idiot's guide' on adding photos. (The one I wish to upload is saved in my hard drive) {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:Odd, I've never had any problems with uploading images. What is the destination filename you are using? From here it looks like you are maybe typing the destination filename as "<nowiki>[[Blah.jpg]]</nowiki>" when all you really need to say is "Blah.jpg", no need for any brackets. Let me know if that helps. When I upload images I don't even bother altering the destination filename as it will automatically insert whatever your file is called on your computer. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:52, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

::Ok that worked, but haven't any idea of how to link it to the relevant page. Can you move it please? {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:::Great! I'll go ahead and show you how to link and let you do it, better to teach than to do :) Here is an example of the image at [[Alan Lee]]:

:::<nowiki>[[Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg|thumb|200px|Image of ''Alan Lee'' courtesy of [http://www.gregmartinphoto.com/ Greg Martin Photgraphy]]]</nowiki>

:::The first part "<nowiki>Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg</nowiki>" is your image name, make sure to include the .jpg What I usually do is go to the actual image and copy the title. Then if you want it to be a thumbnail, which I usually do, I add |thumb, then if its not the right size you can specify how many pixels you want, |200px to |300px is usually around the average. Then you can specify the caption. After that add your closing brackets and you are good to go. Let me know if you have any questions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:11, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

==Non-standard Text==
Hyarion,

I was hoping the wiki could add a list of non-standard letters at the bottom of the edit page, like the list featured in Wikipedia. It would help with First Age entries, where there are a lot of accents. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 02:15, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Ebakunin, this is a feature which I've been meaning to implement, thanks for reminding me. If you haven't already noticed I've added the extension and you can now insert special characters :) I don't think we need as many characters as Wikipedia so if you see any unnecessary ones feel free to remove them from [[MediaWiki talk:Edittools]] Thanks for your continued contributions --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:47, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

==Duplicate Entries==
To decrease the number of repetitive entries, I think we should start using the #REDIRECT tag more often. For example, check out the changes I made to the ''Hill of Tears'' and related entries via the ''Recent changes'' option. Most of the related entries, such as ''Haudh-en-Ndengin'', were just a recap of the main entry. I think using the #REDIRECT will cut down on time, hosting space, and allow editors to focus on quality. What ya think? --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 01:33, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:I think this is probably for the best as it gets confusing having so many multiple stub articles and one main article. The tricky part is going to be choosing a primary article to use. Do you use the [[Quenya]] name, [[Sindarin]] name, [[Dwarvish]] name, [[Westron]] name, most used name, birth name, etc etc. I'm wondering if we should put the redirect pages in the categories...it might cause confusion because you would have [[Gaffer Gamgee]] and [[Old Gaffer]] etc but at least if people were searching for a specific term and didn't know its other meanings, they could find it alright. Thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:38, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

== Please delete a page ==
[[Talk:Sauron Defeated]] is spam, so please delete it. - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rotemliss rotemliss] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rotemliss Talk]) 04:42, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Rotemliss, thanks for the heads up, page is deleted. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:07, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Would you please delete [[Caitimo]], it's an incorrect redirect page. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 21:24, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

:Done. Next time go ahead and add the <nowiki>{{Afd}}</nowiki> template, that way we can work on getting a standard for a deletion process. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:53, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

== User talk:Hyarion vs. Community Forums ==
I think many of the entries here should rather have been posted in the Community Forums, as they concern Community matters and not User:Hyarion matters. Mb you should transfer them? --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 01:27, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good idea. I'll transfer them right now. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:12, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

== Double Check Nasmith Images ==
Hyarion, you need to go through all the Nasmith images you uploaded, as there are duplicates. For example, ''The Pillars of the Kings'' and ''The Argonath'' are the same image, as are ''Illuin, Lamp of the Valar'' and ''Illuin - Lamp of the Valar''. Thanks. {{unsigned|Ebakunin}}

:There are a couple duplicates and a couple which are relatively similar but different pieces. What I'm hoping to do is go back through them and state the material used to make them, and which calendars/books they appeared in. Thanks for keeping an eye out. In the future if you ever see a duplicate just go ahead and add <nowiki>{{afd}}</nowiki> to the lesser quality image. Thanks for all your help. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:55, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

==Favorite Race pics==
Don't worry about cropping those images for the Favorite Race templates - I can do them easily and quickly. I should have them done by the end of the day. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:20, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:Ah that would be great! Thanks :) Once you upload them that will give me an incentive to finish all the infoboxes for the favorite races as I think we only have a couple done. They will look much better with those cool icons than the boring text that is currently there. Thanks again. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:24, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::Done!--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:37, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Awesome, I've made the basic templates, but they need some major color overhauls. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:10, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::::It would also be nice if the text was larger - perhaps in a different font?--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 12:44, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::::That's possible. I want to try and make all the userboxes have a standard such as the [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Userbox_templates Star Wars wiki], lets try changing the background/text color, or maybe even adding another sentence, if its still too small then we can make the font bigger or change the font style, though we have to be careful the font style is standard on a good majority of computers. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:51, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

== Browser Crossover Problems ==
Hyarion, I do all my browsing on Firefox, but when I recently checked the site on IE I noticed that the _ character does not display in < code > sections. Compare [[Amrod]] in FF and IE. Is there anyway to fix the problem? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 00:10, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:Uhoh, what has that darn Microsoft broken now, I use FF as well. Looks like your right, we can use dashes for now, which reminds me I need to install the template system that Wikipedia uses so we can use a fancier family tree system; an example at the bottom of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrimbor this page]. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:21, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

::I could just create the family trees and save them as .jpg images, then upload them. I can do that easily, if you wish. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 06:52, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Hm, let's hold off on that for now. I'm afraid if we have them all as .jpgs that would be a lot of work and we wouldn't be able to alter anything. Maybe if we finalized all the trees with the new templates then we could make images for other sites to use or something. Good idea though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:38, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

== Family trees ==
I tried out the [[template:familytree|familytree template]] and couldn't get it to work. Has anyone else had any luck with it? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 14:48, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
:Heh ya, I only halfway got it working so its not just you, there's a few more templates I have to make as its fairly complex. I'll see if I can get it working tonight, I'll let you know when its up and operational. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

== Tim Hildebrandt ==
Hyarion, would you please make the featured image one of [[Tim Hildebrandt]]? He's one of the most important artists for Tolkien's work and his passing should be featured. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 11:15, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

:Great idea, doing so now. I'll make him the featured artist on our [[Gallery]] page, just in case anyone knows about it, heh. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:44, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

::Is there any way to make the gallery page better known? As well, is there any way for you to enable one or two of us to change the featured picture each day? Some pictures last for weeks on the Main Page. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 20:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::The goal is to start putting links on the left side to main pages, such as the ''Gallery'', but it still needs a lot of work before we do that. Thanks for reminding me about the Featured Image, what I'm going to do is separate the main page into sections and probably allow anyone to edit the Image section. Though eventually what I'd like to do is have the Featured Image and Featured Article be on the same subject, and we would vote on the Featured Article. The entire main page could use a redesign if you ask me. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:44, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

== Quote Template ==

The quote template doesn't work properly when the quote contains a hard return; I had to leave the hard return out of the quote in the [[Talk:Serpent Lord]] discussion (before ''Then Théoden was aware of him''). It also doesn't react on the indentation by the use of colons. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 08:32, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

:Heyo, just got back from a small vacation hence my lack of edits lately. The quote template is kind of a hack, hopefully we can have more efficient means later on. Try using <nowiki><br /></nowiki> for a new line and maybe <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> for a tab. I'll look into an easier solution. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:42, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

== Increase in spam ==
Hyarion, I am wondering about the number of Spammers at a time. I remember when I first joined you were blocking spammers and vandals daily. Then all of a sudden it stopped. Now it has started up again. Are there like spammer clubs where they all chose to target a certain wiki? Or is it one person with access to many computers? Just curious. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:24, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

:Thanks for bringing this up as I've been meaning to mention the situation. Before we had no spam protection so everyday I was having to revert vandals but then I installed an extension which forces anonymous users who post external links to verify they aren't a bot by solving a simple math problem such as 1+1=?. This had solved 99% of the bot spam to date, but unfortunately as the recent bot was spamming numbers and no links, it became difficult to catch. It looks like the bot has moved on but if it continues I'll look into another extension where we block someone from specifically adding a bunch of numbers. None of the attacks are actual humans against us, they are simple bots that use a proxy server to hide their IP and spam random wikis. Now the funny spam is the stuff where actual humans try to screw with articles, I don't mind those as much :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:50, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

=="Unfinished" template==

Hyarion, could you please create an "unfinished" template? It should say something like this: '''''Unfinished'''; this article is incomplete. You can help Tolkien Gateway by completing this article''. On longer more time-consuming articles (such as the [[Fall of Gondolin]]) I noticed the need, and right now would like it as I work on the [[Lay of Leithian cantos]]. By the way, which [[Tilkal]] image do you prefer (see the forums for User Awards)? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:24, 10 July 2006 (EDT)

== Thanks! ==

Hey Hyarion. I just want to say thank you for taking me under your wing, so to speak. I greatly appriciate it! Thank you! -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:46, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

:No worries mate :) Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions and thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:14, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

== cool ==
the tengwar text is really neat! not sure how to install it though. No problem about the maps. it does feel like that with the wikis. I guess its the same with alot of subjects, not just tolkien [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 04:36, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

==English or American spellings?==

This question came to my mind when you spelled harbors "''harbours''". Should we generally spell things in the English way, since Tolkien was English? Or the American spellings, such as jail instead of gaol, and center instead of centre? I am an American, but I personally don't care, as long as nobody changes my spelling on the talk and forum pages. . . --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:12, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

:Heh, yet another thing I have been debating in my head and have yet to come to a conclusion about. Personally I'm probably more for the American spellings because I'm an American and that is the standard for most wikis though their basis isn't on an English author. I had no clue gaol was a variant of jail so it is certainly going to be a challenge for me if we don't use the American usages. While categories/titles are obviously going to be important decisions I think if we redirect the English spellings we should be okay. There is no sense in altering text in the talk/forum and I suppose we can leave the article content as-is, though we should probably standardize it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

::I'd say: use the English spelling, as the language we use here is ''English'' ;-) So, if article titles are spelled the American way, they should be redirected to the "correct" English spelling (unless it's the name of a company or magazine or whatever). --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 05:45, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

:::I'd just like to comment that at the time that Webster's dictionary (the standard for American English) was published in 1828, both Americans and Englishmen spelled their words in any way they wished, though it is true that some spellings (such as ''centre'') were the most accepted by the British aristocracy. American spellings were actually "officially" established before "English" spellings. And now, I believe that around the world American spellings are more common. The only weight for the argument for English spellings is that Tolkien himself was English. At the moment I am neutral on the subject. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:28, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

== Image copyright issues ==

Just wondering, aren't we violating any copyright issues with all the images we have? Do/Did you actually get permission from the artists to upload their works here? We do credit them, though. (I uploaded a new [[Jenny Dolfen]] Legolas image, BTW... Hope it's not copyright violation. [[Image:Jenny_Dolfen_-_Legolas2.jpg]] [[User:Rog|Rog]] 05:49, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

Legolas of Mirkwood

2006-08-24T10:25:10Z

Rog: Added new Dolfen image (dark-haired, heh)

[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Legolas2.jpg|thumb|250px|''Legolas'' by [[Jenny Dolfen]]]]
'''Legolas Greenleaf''' was an [[Elves|Elf]], a [[Sindar|Sinda]] prince who became a member of the [[Fellowship of the Ring]]. With his superior Elven eyesight and hearing, together with excellent skill at arms, particularly archery, Legolas was a valuable resource to the other eight members of the Fellowship. In ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', however, [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] states that in comparison to the rest, Legolas accomplished the least of the nine members of the Fellowship.

Legolas served as a link to the earlier story, ''[[The Hobbit]]'', because he (like [[Gimli]] the [[Dwarf]]) was the son of a character from the previous tale.

== History ==
Legolas was the son of King [[Thranduil]] of the [[Woodland Realm]] of Northern [[Mirkwood]], who appeared as the "Elvenking" in ''[[The Hobbit]]''; his father ruled over the [[Silvan Elves]] who dwelt there. Although he lived among them, was exposed to their culture, and inferred that he considered himself one of them, Legolas was strictly ''not'' one of the Silvan Elves ([[Wood-elves]]). His father Thranduil had originally come from [[Doriath]]; he and his son were actually [[Sindar]] (singular ''Sinda'' — "[[Sindarin]]" is their language). A small minority of Sindar ruled the predominantly Silvan Woodland Realm, a minority which Thranduil headed. The Sindarin minority in that realm, who should have been more noble and wise than the Silvan Elves, can be seen as having "gone native" at the end of the First Age: after [[Morgoth]] was defeated and all of the grand Elf-kingdoms of [[Beleriand]] were destroyed, they can be seen as going back to "a simpler time" in their culture. The realm of [[Lothlórien]] is similar to the Woodland Realm in that a community of Silvan Elves is ruled by non-Silvan ones, i.e. [[Galadriel]] and [[Celeborn]].

=== Before the War of the Ring ===
Though his father and his kingdom appeared in ''The Hobbit'', he did not appear himself. Of course, his character had not been created yet (though his name had; see below). However, some have theorized that he may well have fought in the [[Battle of Five Armies]]. The events in ''The Hobbit'' take place less than one hundred years before the Quest of Mount Doom. Unlike Men, the Eldar (which included the Sindar) reached adulthood on or before they reached a hundred years of age.
{{quote|Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]"}}

Legolas is older than Aragorn and Gimli, who are, according to their birthdates in the [[Appendices]], 87 and 139 respectively at the time of the War of the Ring; he even calls them "children" (see Age discussion below). Thus, he must have been alive during the events of ''The Hobbit''. Logically, as a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon retcon] he could quite conceivably have been present in his father's halls at the time, and may have even fought at the [[Battle of Five Armies]].

=== The War of the Ring ===
[[Image:John Howe - Legolas.jpg|thumb|left|''Legolas'' by [[John Howe]]]]
He is introduced in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' at the [[Council of Elrond]] at [[Rivendell]], where he came as a messenger from his father to discuss the escape of [[Gollum]] from their guard. Tolkien describes him as "a strange Elf, clad in green and brown". Legolas volunteered or was chosen to become one of the members of the Fellowship that set out to destroy the [[One Ring]]. He accompanied the others in their travels from Rivendell to [[Amon Hen]].

When the Fellowship was snowed down while crossing [[Caradhras]], he scouted ahead to find the Sun, while [[Aragorn II|Aragorn]] and [[Boromir son of Denethor II|Boromir]] drove a path through the snow. Unlike them, he was little affected by the blowing winds and snow; he did not even wear boots, only light shoes, and his feet scarcely made imprints on the snow.

After their attempt to cross Caradhras was foiled, their leader [[Gandalf]] took them on an underground journey through [[Moria]], an ancient Dwarf-kingdom, though some (including Legolas) did not wish to go there. Before they reached Moria, however, Legolas helped fend off an attack of Sauron's wolves in [[Hollin]]. Once in Moria, he helped fight off the Orcs whom they encounter there, and recognized [[Durin's Bane]] as a [[Balrogs|Balrog]] of [[Morgoth]].

After Gandalf was lost while facing the Balrog, Aragorn took charge of the Fellowship and led them to the Elven realm of [[Lothlórien]], the Golden Wood. Legolas served as the initial spokesperson for the company, speaking with the inhabitants, the [[Galadhrim]], whom he considered close kin.

Within the Fellowship, there was friction between Legolas and the [[Dwarf]] [[Gimli]], because of the ancient quarrel between Elves and Dwarves after the destruction of [[Doriath]] in the [[First Age]], and also because his father, Thranduil, once threw Gimli's father, [[Glóin son of Gróin|Glóin]], in prison (as described in ''[[The Hobbit]]''). Legolas and Gimli became friends, however, when Gimli greeted the [[Galadriel|Lady of the Golden Wood]] with gentle words.

They then took leave of Lothlórien, but not before receiving several gifts. There, he received a new longbow from the [[Galadhrim]], along with the other gifts that [[Galadriel]] and [[Celeborn, Lord of Lórien|Celeborn]] gave him and the rest of the Fellowship, such as special cloaks and ''[[lembas]]''. While the Fellowship was travelling over the [[Anduin|Anduin River]], he shot down a nearby [[Fell beasts|Fell beast]] with a single arrow.

After Boromir was killed and [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] and [[Pippin]] were captured by Orcs in ''The Two Towers'', he, Aragorn and Gimli set forth in pursuit of the two ([[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] the [[Ring-bearer]] and [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] had gone ahead on the road to Mordor). They met the revived Gandalf and the [[Rohirrim]], fought in the [[Battle of the Hornburg]], and witnessed [[Saruman]]'s (partial) downfall at [[Isengard]], where they were reunited with the two abducted hobbits. In the Battle of the Hornburg, he and Gimli engaged in an [[Orc]]-slaying contest (Gimli won by a single Orc, killing 42 to Legolas's 41, but the real result was stronger mutual respect).

In ''The Return of the King'', he and Gimli accompanied Aragorn on the [[Paths of the Dead]], along with the [[Grey Company]]. After Aragorn summoned the [[Dead Men]] of [[Dunharrow]] to fight for him, he watched them scare away the [[Corsairs of Umbar]] from their ships at [[Pelargir]]. He fought in the [[Battle of the Pelennor]] and the [[Morannon]], and watched as [[Sauron]] was defeated and [[Barad-dûr]] collapsed.

=== After the War of the Ring ===
After the destruction of the [[One Ring]], he lingered in [[Minas Tirith]] for some time, as Aragorn was crowned King of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] as King [[Elessar]] and married his love Arwen. Later, Legolas and Gimli went off travelling together through [[Fangorn Forest]]. Eventually, Legolas came to [[Ithilien]] with some of his people, with his father's leave, to live out his remaining time in [[Middle-earth]] helping to restore the devastated forests of that war-ravaged land.

It is told in the Red Book (first written by [[Bilbo Baggins]], continued by [[Frodo Baggins]] and supposedly finished by [[Samwise Gamgee]]) that after the death of King [[Aragorn Elessar]], Legolas built a grey ship in [[Ithilien]], and left Middle-earth to go over the Sea to [[Valinor]], the Blessed Realm, and Gimli the Dwarf went with him.

== Portrayal in Adaptations ==
[[Image:Ralph Bakshi's Legolas.jpg||thumb|250px|Legolas as portrayed in [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings]]]]
[[Image:Legolas at Amon Hen.jpg|thumb|250px|[[Orlando Bloom]] as Legolas in [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]]]
Legolas was voiced by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Daniels Anthony Daniels] (who had played the droid C-3PO of ''Star Wars'' fame) in [[Ralph Bakshi]]'s 1978 animated version of ''[[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|The Lord of the Rings]]''. In the film, he takes [[Glorfindel of Rivendell|Glorfindel's]] place in the Flight to the Ford sequence; he meets Strider and the hobbits on their way to [[Rivendell]], and sets Frodo on his horse before he is chased by the Nazgûl to the ford of [[Bruinen]] (In Peter Jackson's version, [[Arwen]] takes Glorfindel's place and rides to the Ford herself with Frodo). Here, he is apparently from Rivendell, because he answers to Elrond; he is not identified as a Wood-elf.

Legolas was voiced by [[David Collings]] in the [[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|1981 BBC Radio 4 adaptation]].

In [[Peter Jackson]]'s [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|''Lord of the Rings'' movie trilogy]]m Legolas was portrayed by [[Orlando Bloom]].

In the "official movie guide" for ''The Lord of the Rings'', a birthdate for Legolas is set to 87 of the [[Third Age]]. This would make him 2931 years old at the time of the [[War of the Ring]]. This date for Legolas' birth was made up by the movie writers, as in the books there are no known dates concerning Legolas before Third Age 3018. Curiously, the year 2931 was the year Aragorn was born; the writers may have picked the number at random from the ''Tale of Years'' in the [[Appendices]].

He is presented as an unstoppable fighter, arguably to the point of stealing the show; he performs show-stopping yet implausible stunts in battle scenes. For example, in the [[Battle of the Hornburg]], he slides down a staircase using a shield, shooting arrows all the while, and in the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]], he takes down an [[Oliphaunts|Oliphaunt]] all by himself. However, in the books Legolas's exploits in battle are not presented in great detail. Aside from shooting the fell beast, he undertakes no major actions other than to make peace with Gimli, overcoming their longstanding mutual racial animosity — he and Gimli are followers, rather than leaders. The film-makers later stated that the entire scene of Legolas killing the Oliphaunt and its entire crew was filmed during pick-ups (months after original filming) to insert a major action scene showcasing him, because at that point they realized that he simply doesn't get to do much in the third part of the trilogy.

He wears green and grey clothes and uses boots, in contrast to Tolkien's green and "brown" clothes and "light shoes". It is notable that in the extended DVD edition of The Fellowship of the Ring, a scene in Lothlorien is included in which Legolas is wearing a different costume than his normal. This was in fact his original costume, which was later changed due to the filmmaker's dissatisfaction with it. Fans have come up with several explanations for this seeming inconsistency. Two possibilities stand above the rest as the most likely: (1) Legolas brought an extra tunic and jerkin from Mirkwood and decided to wear it at this moment, (2) The Elves of Lothlorien, under the leadership of [[Haldir of Lórien|Haldir]], gave Legolas a new tunic of their own make (or one they had traded with other Elves) for him to wear. The most common explanation for why he would change his tunic is that his other one was dirty from the long trek up to that point and he wanted to have it washed in the clean waters of the [[Nimrodel the river|Nimrodel]].

Legolas bears two long knives, while in the book he bears only one. Another, more trivial change, was the number of Orcs he and Gimli kill at [[Helm's Deep]]: 42 and 43, respectively. This brings up an interesting possibility that could further illuminate the playful antagonism between the two characters. Legolas might give his count as "42" but secretly tells an untruth and really has only killed 41 [[Uruk-hai]], but wants to make sure he has more than Gimli. Gimli, who has only killed 42 gives his answer as "43", to make sure he bests the Elf. It is not clear, however, whether this was an intentional change on the part of the filmmakers, though it seems likely that it was, since the original numbers were so clear in Tolkien's own text.

Due to technical mishaps involving Orlando Bloom's contact lenses, in the films Legolas' eye colour sometimes changes between brown, purple, and blue. This was justified by the notion that Elves' eyes change colour with their mood. This idea subsequently spread to fanfiction; however, it is pure [[fanon]], and is nowhere to be found in Tolkien's writings, and is often simply meant as a joke; in any case, his eye color was probably grey; see [[Elves#Eye color|here]] for more details. Another common explanation for Legolas' changing eye color is the obvious fact that light reflects off objects differently in different conditions and that, therefore, the Elf's eyes "seem" to change color in different lighting environments.

Playing Legolas in the trilogy was Orlando Bloom's breakout route to superstardom. His handsome features and Legolas' "coolness", so to speak, as depicted in the film, have led to the character becoming a unprecedented fan favorite with both fangirls and fanboys, not to mention other Tolkien fans. Although the disproportionate popular reaction to Legolas met with mixed reactions from fans, many debaters on the Internet during earlier stages of production were worried, that a film portrayal of Legolas might render him as far too effeminate for popular consumption, but later many felt that Bloom was able to avoid this entirely. [[Christopher Tolkien]] recounts that his father wrote the following "wrathful" comment protesting against a "pretty" or "ladylike" depiction of Legolas:
{{quote|He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.|[[The Book of Lost Tales Part 2]]}}

Despite Bloom's popularity, many viewers have found his performance wooden, in agreement with his status as a "Wood"-elf.

Legolas is absent from the [[Rankin/Bass' The Return of the King|1980 animated version of ''The Return of the King]].

== Disputed Issues ==
===Age===
While Legolas' age is never given in Tolkien's writings, some [[Tolkienist|Tolkien scholars]] have estimated he is at the most 800 – 900 years old by the time of the War of the Ring, and at least 500, though probably more; however, many others disagree on the maximum figure. Without any direct mention to the contrary, he could also have been born as early as the First Age. At the very least, we know he is over 139 years old, because he is older than Gimli (see below).

The figure of 500 years minimum was derived from the following — at one point in ''The Two Towers'', he says that the leaves have fallen in Mirkwood 500 times since [[Meduseld]] was built, and he appears to be describing it as if he actually experienced this:
{{quote|Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right," said Aragorn. "Many long lives of men it is since the [[Meduseld|golden hall]] was built."<p>"Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us."</p>"But to the Riders of the Mark it seems so long ago," said Aragorn, "that the raising of this house is but a memory of song, and the years before are lost in the mist of time.|''[[The Two Towers]]'', "[[The White Rider]]"}}

To see their reasoning for an age of 800 – 900 years, see the articles referred to [[#external links|below]].

In ''Laws and Customs Among the Eldar'', Tolkien states that the mental development of Elf-children is much quicker than those of human children. By their first year, Elf-children can already walk, speak, and even dance.
{{quote|The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people.|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]"}}

If we are to infer that Elves can have concrete memories at a younger age than humans do, Legolas could conceivably have remembered the last 500 autumns that have passed, starting when he was very young.

However, he could be merely commenting on the contrasting viewpoints of Men and Elves on time ("and but a little while does that seem to us"); more importantly, 500 years is here clearly "the time elapsed since Meduseld was built". At face value, his statement says ''nothing'' about his age — to go further would only be speculation.

It is certainly possible that he was older than what many fans imagine him to be, at least (probably due to the influence of Bloom and his portrayal). In ''The Two Towers'', he calls Aragorn (born Third Age 2931, 87 years old in 3018, 88 at the end of the War some months later) and Gimli (born 2879, 139 years old in 3018) "children" while in [[Fangorn Forest]], and says that he does not ''feel'' young:
{{quote|It [the forest] is old, very old," said the Elf. "So old that almost I feel young '''again''', as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.|''[[The Two Towers]]'', "[[The White Rider]]"}}

Also, he speaks of watching oaks grow from acorns to "ruinous age", suggesting that he is in fact old, though possibly young for Elves (some kinds of oak can live for a very long time):
{{quote|These are the strangest trees that I ever saw," [Legolas] said; "and I have seen many an oak grow from acorn to ruinous age. I wish that there were leisure now to walk among them: they have voices, and in time I might come to understand their thought.|ibid}}

However, even the minimum figure of 500 can still apply here, since Tolkien could have had the English oak in mind, and it can live up to about 500 years.

Also, some readers point out that his birthdate is not recorded in the Appendices. For them, this might be a sign that he was born in the [[First Age]], since the Appendices only record dates from the [[Second Age]] onwards.

=== Hair color ===
[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Legolas.jpg|thumb|200px|An earlier ''Legolas'' by [[Jenny Dolfen]], modelled after [[Orlando Bloom]].]]
His father Thranduil was blond, so many assume that Legolas must have been blond also (Indeed, both [[Ralph Bakshi]] and [[Peter Jackson]] make him blond). However, Tolkien describes his head as "dark" when he shoots down a [[Ringwraiths|Ringwraith]]'s [[Fell beasts|Fell beast]] in ''The Fellowship of the Ring'' in the following quote, suggesting the contrary to some:
{{quote|Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind.|''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', "[[The Great River]]"}}

According to this camp, his hair must be either dark brown or black, as was the norm for the Sindar. (Blond hair was mostly exclusive to the [[Vanyar]].) However, the "blond" camp points out that the above quote takes place ''at night'', and opines that his head may have appeared "dark" due to shadows, rather than his actual hair color.

=== Birth order ===
Some assume that he is an only child; however, he could be only one of Thranduil's children. Thranduil did let him leave Mirkwood to find a new elf-community in Ithilien, suggesting to some that he was not his heir; but then others opine that given the longevity of Elves and the relative safety of Middle-earth after Sauron's downfall, Thranduil could go on ruling the Woodland Realm as long as he liked or until he felt the sea-longing. No definitive evidence is given, either way.

== Name ==
The name '''Legolas''' is a [[Silvan]] dialect form of pure [[Sindarin]] ''Laegolas'', which means Greenleaf. This shows that '''''Greenleaf''''' is not his surname, as is sometimes erroneously believed; nor is it an epithet (like ''[[Oakenshield]]''), but a translation of his name. It consists of the [[Sindarin]] words ''laeg'', green; and ''golas'', a collection of leaves, foliage (being a prefixed collective form of ''las(s)'', "leaf"). The [[Quenya]] form (mentioned in the ''Book of Lost Tales'' in the context of another character of that name) is ''Laiqualassë''.

There might, however, be a certain meaning to his name: ''laeg'' is a very rare, archaic word for green, which is normally replaced by ''calen'' (cf. ''Calenhad'', mutated ''Parth Galen'' and plural ''Pinnath Gelin'') and is otherwise almost only preserved in ''Laegrim, Laegel(d)rim'' (Sindarin form of Quenya [[Laiquendi]]), the ''Green Elves'' of the First Age. It may be that Thranduil named his son ''Legolas'' to at least in part refer to this people, who were remote kin and ancestors of the later Silvan Elves, the people Thranduil ruled and to whom—very likely—Thranduil's wife belonged.

Apparently, only Hobbits (and the Men of Bree) used surnames (like [[Baggins]] or [[Gamgee]]), as recorded in the Red Book. Men and Elves alike used the patronymic (''son of'') formula. In English, therefore, a fuller name would be "Legolas son of Thranduil" or "Legolas Thranduil's son". In Sindarin, that would be ''Legolas Thranduilion'', -''ion'' meaning "scion of".

===Legolas of Gondolin===
The name ''Legolas Greenleaf'' first appeared in ''[[The Fall of Gondolin]]'', one of the ''[[The Book of Lost Tales|Lost Tales]]'', circa 1917. The character is mentioned only once and is unrelated to the character discussed above. As the Lost Tales were the first embodiment of Tolkien's mythology, and by the time ''The Lord of the Rings'' was written much had changed, this in all likelihood is not the same Elf, and he was not included in the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''.
{{quote|But the others, led by one '''Legolas Greenleaf''' of the [[House of the Tree|house of the Tree]], who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march.|''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part 2]]'', "[[The Fall of Gondolin]]"}}

The [[Legolas of Gondolin]], who Tolkien would likely have renamed, has a different etymology. His name (''Laiqalassë'' in its pure form) comes from the primitive [[Quenya]] (''Qenya'') words ''laica'' ("green") and ''lassë'' ("leaf"). The names are very similar, but the characters were different: Legolas of Gondolin was possibly a [[Noldor]] in exile, of the House (kindred) of the Tree. However, the published ''Silmarillion'', in describing [[Turgon of Gondolin|Turgon]]'s founding of Gondolin, states that Turgon took with him up to a third of the people under [[Fingolfin]], but an even larger number of the Sindar. Thus, whether Legolas of Gondolin was of Noldorin or Sindarin descent is debatable.

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Legolas|Images of Legolas]]

== Sources ==
* [http://www.istad.org/tolkien/legolas.html Legolas of Mirkwood: Prince Among Equals] - An Essay by Ellen Brundige
* [http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517 "Speaking of Legolas..."] by Michael Martinez, Suite101.com, 2004
* [http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=12604 Discussion on Legolas' age, from the '''theonering.com''' messageboards]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/l/legolas.html Legolas Greenleaf] at the Encyclopedia of Arda
* [http://www.tuckborough.net/legolas.html Legolas] at The Thain's Book

{{fellowship}}

[[Category:Grey Elves]]

Black serpent

2006-08-24T10:07:54Z

Rog: Blood red?

[[Image:Anke Eissmann - Falling of the Black Serpent.jpeg|thumb|300px|''Falling of the Black Serpent'' by [[Anke Eissmann]].]]
The '''Black Serpent''' was a standard of the [[Haradrim]], and especially the token of a mighty warrior and leader of [[Men]] who fought at the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]], and was slain by King [[Théoden]] of [[Rohan]]. It was described as a black serpent upon a [[field (heraldry)|field]] of red.

User talk:Hyarion

2006-08-24T09:49:26Z

Rog: Image copyright issues

==Need Help With Footnotes!==
Hyarion, I need help getting the footnotes working on the [[Chamber of Mazarbul]] page. Could you help? Thanks so much.

-Old Took

:I saw you added that on the [[Talk:Chamber of Mazarbul|talk page]] but wasn't sure what you meant as the links work fine for me. What doesn't seem to be working for you? When I click them it sends the page down to align the top line with the relevant footnote, and when you click the up arrow it will jump you back up to the in-text citation. Am I missing something? Keep in mind the footnotes aren't very effective as the page can only scroll so much, thus rending it incapable of going all the way down to the correct reference. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 22:24, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

::Sorry, it was a browser problem of mine. Everything's fine now! -Old Took

==Question==
Hello, Hyarion!

I hope this is the right place to send messages - if not, please erase this.

Well, I was suprised to see that I was the second person to register in here, but that's even better: there's plenty of room to fill in.

I found these pages - as you might guess - via the Finnish Kontu forum, where the administrator Merri had posted a message informing about possibilities for co-operation. So I hope there will be more Finns to register in. I'll send my contributions when I have time to do that - quite irregularly, I'm afraid, but let's hope the best.

yours, Tik

By the way, how does one start writing a new article to which there exists no previous
link? I couldn't figure that out, being quite unaccustomed to Wiki. The only way I could start writing a new article was to edit a previous one and add there a new internal link and continue editing that one.

:I have a feeling that will be a common one (because I had to figure that one out myself) so I'll post that on the help page. All you have to do is type in your address bar, something like http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Title of Page (it will even insert the underscores for you) and you will be directed to a page that does not exist and you can edit it that way.

:Also, something I broke my own rule on, its a good idea to type a 'signature' when adding a comment to a discussion, otherwise no one knows who wrote it. I wish mediawiki would do it automatically, but until I fix that, a good standard to use is like mine below, just type "&mdash ;" but take the space out between the h and the semicolon...I can't figure out how to show those literally. You can also use -- it's just a matter of preference. And then type 4 ~ in a row. The first one prints out your name, second the time, 3rd the date, and 4th the timezone I believe.

:EDIT: Hm...looks like your one step ahead of me, on your pages, you have exactly that.

:EDIT: On second thought I'm going to move this to User:Hyarion because I'll probably keep this page to say what the English translation of Hyarion is. -- [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:41, 12 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== Answer To Your Question ==
A lot of my stuff is at my LJ, [http://www.livejournal.com/users/brighty11/ ~~Black Sun~~], and some is at Parma, OF and Elfsheen, but a lot is just on my hard disk. :)

— [[User:BrightSideoftheDark|Brighty]] 6:22, 25 Aug 2005 (EDT)

== Bokkie Moans ==
Hey

Can you try and make a [[Special:Sandbox]] for us users to try stuff out in?
makes editing family lines and such easier...

I've spotted a difference of opinion... 8-)
I've been trying to remove all the '''Hobbits Category''' entries from the different hobbits, but I see you add them still... It did make it easier for me to check who had been edited...
I guess we want them back?

* Ah, hehe. That is something I was debating. I wonder if it is possible to have a 'Hobbits' cateogry and in it, list the hobbit family names, but have it also contain a list of all the hobbits since those are sub-categories. I guess when it comes down to it I just want a page that lists all the Hobbits, whatever way works I'm fine with. Sorry I totally forgot you were removing those, heh, I'll look into it to see what way will work. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:44, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)
::I'll leave the Hobbit category be then. I guess it would be just as useful to have all the hobbits in one big list, as it was. Just add a category for the specific family too, like you did 8-)
I've got my doubts about double pages like [[Sam Gamgee]] and [[Samwise Gamgee]].
It basically is one and the same person, only a nickname or shortform. I would rather see 1 article with a list of "aliases"... --[[User:Bokkie|Bokkie]] 17:42, 14 Sep 2005 (EDT)
:I understand where you're coming from and I'll keep thinking about it, but for the time being I still say that it would be more beneficial to have the names on seperate pages, because each name has a specific meaning. For example [[Aragorn Elessar]] and [[Strider]] and such, you can go into great detail about the different names and people who called him that, places he used it, and the [[Elvish]] translations along with the old english meanings, etc. This would tend to drag down the [[Aragorn Elessar]] page to list all the names/information on it. For things like [[Sam Gamgee]] there is not going to be as much information to talk about it, but just to keep the same system I think it's best to keep it. In the future we can list when he is referred to as 'Sam' and by whom. Just my opinion though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:15, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)

== Sandbox ==
Good idea, I'll add that to the to-do list while I upgrade the new wiki software, which should greatly improve the left menu, I'm going to be able to add things like links to the letters A-Z or links to races or to whatever we want and in different tables, if you have any suggestions let me know. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:39, 9 Sep 2005 (EDT)

==What Happened to Me?==
This is Brighty - what happened to me? I tried to log in and it said I don't exist. Weird.
::Were you using "BrightSideoftheDark"? Your still on the userlist, odd. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:51, 3 November 2005 (EST)

== Cirith Gorgor and related bands ==
Hey Hyarion,

Like Blind Guardian not all songs relate to Tolkien, but the ones that do stick to theme. Do you want bands to stick with just a band page?
:Honestly it's up to you, that's the best part, no one person has full control and we as a community can make decisions, but with the [[Blind Guardian]] page I just copied that from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Guardian for now and have yet to remove the unnecessary links, which was my fault because you were basing your articles off that. With Blind Guardian, as with [[Cirith Gorgor (band)|Cirith Gorgor]] it is tricky because the [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] theme is greater in some albums and songs than others so there is no easy fine line. In the end more information is always better than less and if in the future we deem the articles as unnecessary it won't take any effort to remove them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:05, 28 November 2005 (EST)
::Ah ok. I was gonna just throw up a band page but saw all the information on Blind Guardian I figure I better not slack and add some more :P I'll clean it up and keep it that way in the future.

== Barrowdowns Mb ==
Hey Hyarion,

I like your idea about the barrowdowns.com MB, I say lets do it.-Goldfinger

==Spam==
Hi Hyarion Firstly love this site! Secondly we have a troll adding porn links: Hfskodweyb I have edited and deleted the nonesense twice but it reappears. you may need to block this spammer {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}
:Good morning Sancho! Yes unfortunately we do get bots from time to time. Luckily they are just trying to gain PageRank so they normally try to hide the links. In an upcoming patch we will be forcing unregistered users to type in some random numbers/letters from an image to stop the bots. This one managed to register which makes it a bit more difficult to stop but the best we can do is add an extension that only allows people to edit X amount of pages in X amount of minutes which I'm looking into as well. Thanks for keeping an eye on it.
--[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 10:57, 14 April 2006 (EDT)

== Ñoldor vs. Noldor ==
Hello. You asked about the use of ñ, and the answer's pretty complicated. First let me say the I changed the n to ñ just to be consistent in the text - I really don't care much one way or the other. And here's the long story behind it all...

Ñ is used as a nasal plosive by Tolkien, so it would sound something like "ng" in "song" or "king". This is Quenya in its purist form. The Vanyar in Aman would say "Ñoldor", not "Noldor". Occasionally you will even see "Ñoldor" spelled "Ngoldor". However, in Middle Earth, the mixing of languages changed pronounciations, so by the Third Age an elf would just as likely say "Noldor", as "Ñoldor". Older pronounciations did continue into the Third Age; for example the name "Elrond". Quenya in the Third Age tended to drop the "d" at the end of words, but Elrond was always referred to by his archaic name, rather than by "Elron".

You wanted citations, but I can't name them off the top of my head. Check out this page: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/ndnn.htm for more info. He's a linguist that knows his stuff and where I got my knowledge of Quenya.

So there you go, the sordid tale of "ñ". The whole thing comes down to whether the text is referring to ancient "Ñoldor" or the "Noldor" of the Third Age. If a final decision needs to be made, I would use "Noldor" throughout the site and mention in passing that "Ñoldor" is the older spelling and pronounciation of the word.

Hope this helps. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

== More on Spam ==
In regards to the spam comment above: since the site uses MediaWiki, it's very easy to disallow anonymous editing. While it will slightly slow down the growth of the site, it adds a layer of protection that a wiki needs to stay relevant to its audience. Few bots can handle the complexity of registering, especially if email confirmation is required. It's a bit of a pain for casual users, but it's worth it in the long run. Just my two cents. --[[User:ebakunin|ebakunin]]

:Thanks for your input. While I think at this point in time disallowing anonymous editing goes a bit against the wiki definition, a new version of the engine has been released which forces anonymous editors to type a randomly generated word which would stop the spam bots rather effectively. Email confirmation is something which currently is required but should bots continue to register then we will require it (or force a word verification on register). --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:19, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Requested articles ==
If it is possible, it might be good to allow those who have not logged in request a page or request a page’s expansion. [[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:05, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

:That's definitely something I've had in the queue for a while. I'll try and add that today, on second thought I'll just add that right now. Even if they aren't logged in they can still make whatever page they want, and just add the <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki> tag to let us know it needs to be worked on. But I still think we need a Request an article and maybe like you said a request a page's expansion. Maybe we can just add the stub tag if we want it to be expanded, and then have a "Expansion of the week" where each week we focus on a stub and work on rewriting it and making it better. Thanks for the input. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:16, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

== Uploading pictures ==
I Have been trying to add a photo, but I get the message ".jpg]] is not a valid picture format"

What am I doing wrong ( perhaps you can give an 'idiot's guide' on adding photos. (The one I wish to upload is saved in my hard drive) {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:Odd, I've never had any problems with uploading images. What is the destination filename you are using? From here it looks like you are maybe typing the destination filename as "<nowiki>[[Blah.jpg]]</nowiki>" when all you really need to say is "Blah.jpg", no need for any brackets. Let me know if that helps. When I upload images I don't even bother altering the destination filename as it will automatically insert whatever your file is called on your computer. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:52, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

::Ok that worked, but haven't any idea of how to link it to the relevant page. Can you move it please? {{unsigned|Sancho proudfoot}}

:::Great! I'll go ahead and show you how to link and let you do it, better to teach than to do :) Here is an example of the image at [[Alan Lee]]:

:::<nowiki>[[Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg|thumb|200px|Image of ''Alan Lee'' courtesy of [http://www.gregmartinphoto.com/ Greg Martin Photgraphy]]]</nowiki>

:::The first part "<nowiki>Image:Alan Lee (Greg Martin Photography).jpg</nowiki>" is your image name, make sure to include the .jpg What I usually do is go to the actual image and copy the title. Then if you want it to be a thumbnail, which I usually do, I add |thumb, then if its not the right size you can specify how many pixels you want, |200px to |300px is usually around the average. Then you can specify the caption. After that add your closing brackets and you are good to go. Let me know if you have any questions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:11, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

==Non-standard Text==
Hyarion,

I was hoping the wiki could add a list of non-standard letters at the bottom of the edit page, like the list featured in Wikipedia. It would help with First Age entries, where there are a lot of accents. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 02:15, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Ebakunin, this is a feature which I've been meaning to implement, thanks for reminding me. If you haven't already noticed I've added the extension and you can now insert special characters :) I don't think we need as many characters as Wikipedia so if you see any unnecessary ones feel free to remove them from [[MediaWiki talk:Edittools]] Thanks for your continued contributions --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:47, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

==Duplicate Entries==
To decrease the number of repetitive entries, I think we should start using the #REDIRECT tag more often. For example, check out the changes I made to the ''Hill of Tears'' and related entries via the ''Recent changes'' option. Most of the related entries, such as ''Haudh-en-Ndengin'', were just a recap of the main entry. I think using the #REDIRECT will cut down on time, hosting space, and allow editors to focus on quality. What ya think? --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 01:33, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:I think this is probably for the best as it gets confusing having so many multiple stub articles and one main article. The tricky part is going to be choosing a primary article to use. Do you use the [[Quenya]] name, [[Sindarin]] name, [[Dwarvish]] name, [[Westron]] name, most used name, birth name, etc etc. I'm wondering if we should put the redirect pages in the categories...it might cause confusion because you would have [[Gaffer Gamgee]] and [[Old Gaffer]] etc but at least if people were searching for a specific term and didn't know its other meanings, they could find it alright. Thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 01:38, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

== Please delete a page ==
[[Talk:Sauron Defeated]] is spam, so please delete it. - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rotemliss rotemliss] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rotemliss Talk]) 04:42, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good morning Rotemliss, thanks for the heads up, page is deleted. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:07, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

Would you please delete [[Caitimo]], it's an incorrect redirect page. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 21:24, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

:Done. Next time go ahead and add the <nowiki>{{Afd}}</nowiki> template, that way we can work on getting a standard for a deletion process. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:53, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

== User talk:Hyarion vs. Community Forums ==
I think many of the entries here should rather have been posted in the Community Forums, as they concern Community matters and not User:Hyarion matters. Mb you should transfer them? --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 01:27, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

:Good idea. I'll transfer them right now. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:12, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

== Double Check Nasmith Images ==
Hyarion, you need to go through all the Nasmith images you uploaded, as there are duplicates. For example, ''The Pillars of the Kings'' and ''The Argonath'' are the same image, as are ''Illuin, Lamp of the Valar'' and ''Illuin - Lamp of the Valar''. Thanks. {{unsigned|Ebakunin}}

:There are a couple duplicates and a couple which are relatively similar but different pieces. What I'm hoping to do is go back through them and state the material used to make them, and which calendars/books they appeared in. Thanks for keeping an eye out. In the future if you ever see a duplicate just go ahead and add <nowiki>{{afd}}</nowiki> to the lesser quality image. Thanks for all your help. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:55, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

==Favorite Race pics==
Don't worry about cropping those images for the Favorite Race templates - I can do them easily and quickly. I should have them done by the end of the day. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:20, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:Ah that would be great! Thanks :) Once you upload them that will give me an incentive to finish all the infoboxes for the favorite races as I think we only have a couple done. They will look much better with those cool icons than the boring text that is currently there. Thanks again. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:24, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::Done!--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:37, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Awesome, I've made the basic templates, but they need some major color overhauls. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:10, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

::::It would also be nice if the text was larger - perhaps in a different font?--[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 12:44, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

:::::That's possible. I want to try and make all the userboxes have a standard such as the [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Userbox_templates Star Wars wiki], lets try changing the background/text color, or maybe even adding another sentence, if its still too small then we can make the font bigger or change the font style, though we have to be careful the font style is standard on a good majority of computers. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:51, 7 May 2006 (EDT)

== Browser Crossover Problems ==
Hyarion, I do all my browsing on Firefox, but when I recently checked the site on IE I noticed that the _ character does not display in < code > sections. Compare [[Amrod]] in FF and IE. Is there anyway to fix the problem? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 00:10, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:Uhoh, what has that darn Microsoft broken now, I use FF as well. Looks like your right, we can use dashes for now, which reminds me I need to install the template system that Wikipedia uses so we can use a fancier family tree system; an example at the bottom of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrimbor this page]. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 00:21, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

::I could just create the family trees and save them as .jpg images, then upload them. I can do that easily, if you wish. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 06:52, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

:::Hm, let's hold off on that for now. I'm afraid if we have them all as .jpgs that would be a lot of work and we wouldn't be able to alter anything. Maybe if we finalized all the trees with the new templates then we could make images for other sites to use or something. Good idea though. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 08:38, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

== Family trees ==
I tried out the [[template:familytree|familytree template]] and couldn't get it to work. Has anyone else had any luck with it? Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 14:48, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
:Heh ya, I only halfway got it working so its not just you, there's a few more templates I have to make as its fairly complex. I'll see if I can get it working tonight, I'll let you know when its up and operational. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 19:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

== Tim Hildebrandt ==
Hyarion, would you please make the featured image one of [[Tim Hildebrandt]]? He's one of the most important artists for Tolkien's work and his passing should be featured. Thanks. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 11:15, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

:Great idea, doing so now. I'll make him the featured artist on our [[Gallery]] page, just in case anyone knows about it, heh. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:44, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

::Is there any way to make the gallery page better known? As well, is there any way for you to enable one or two of us to change the featured picture each day? Some pictures last for weeks on the Main Page. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 20:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::The goal is to start putting links on the left side to main pages, such as the ''Gallery'', but it still needs a lot of work before we do that. Thanks for reminding me about the Featured Image, what I'm going to do is separate the main page into sections and probably allow anyone to edit the Image section. Though eventually what I'd like to do is have the Featured Image and Featured Article be on the same subject, and we would vote on the Featured Article. The entire main page could use a redesign if you ask me. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:44, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

== Quote Template ==

The quote template doesn't work properly when the quote contains a hard return; I had to leave the hard return out of the quote in the [[Talk:Serpent Lord]] discussion (before ''Then Théoden was aware of him''). It also doesn't react on the indentation by the use of colons. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 08:32, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

:Heyo, just got back from a small vacation hence my lack of edits lately. The quote template is kind of a hack, hopefully we can have more efficient means later on. Try using <nowiki><br /></nowiki> for a new line and maybe <nowiki><blockquote></blockquote></nowiki> for a tab. I'll look into an easier solution. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:42, 25 June 2006 (EDT)

== Increase in spam ==
Hyarion, I am wondering about the number of Spammers at a time. I remember when I first joined you were blocking spammers and vandals daily. Then all of a sudden it stopped. Now it has started up again. Are there like spammer clubs where they all chose to target a certain wiki? Or is it one person with access to many computers? Just curious. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:24, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

:Thanks for bringing this up as I've been meaning to mention the situation. Before we had no spam protection so everyday I was having to revert vandals but then I installed an extension which forces anonymous users who post external links to verify they aren't a bot by solving a simple math problem such as 1+1=?. This had solved 99% of the bot spam to date, but unfortunately as the recent bot was spamming numbers and no links, it became difficult to catch. It looks like the bot has moved on but if it continues I'll look into another extension where we block someone from specifically adding a bunch of numbers. None of the attacks are actual humans against us, they are simple bots that use a proxy server to hide their IP and spam random wikis. Now the funny spam is the stuff where actual humans try to screw with articles, I don't mind those as much :) --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 21:50, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

=="Unfinished" template==

Hyarion, could you please create an "unfinished" template? It should say something like this: '''''Unfinished'''; this article is incomplete. You can help Tolkien Gateway by completing this article''. On longer more time-consuming articles (such as the [[Fall of Gondolin]]) I noticed the need, and right now would like it as I work on the [[Lay of Leithian cantos]]. By the way, which [[Tilkal]] image do you prefer (see the forums for User Awards)? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:24, 10 July 2006 (EDT)

== Thanks! ==

Hey Hyarion. I just want to say thank you for taking me under your wing, so to speak. I greatly appriciate it! Thank you! -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:46, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

:No worries mate :) Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions and thanks for all your contributions. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:14, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

== cool ==
the tengwar text is really neat! not sure how to install it though. No problem about the maps. it does feel like that with the wikis. I guess its the same with alot of subjects, not just tolkien [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 04:36, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

==English or American spellings?==

This question came to my mind when you spelled harbors "''harbours''". Should we generally spell things in the English way, since Tolkien was English? Or the American spellings, such as jail instead of gaol, and center instead of centre? I am an American, but I personally don't care, as long as nobody changes my spelling on the talk and forum pages. . . --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 11:12, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

:Heh, yet another thing I have been debating in my head and have yet to come to a conclusion about. Personally I'm probably more for the American spellings because I'm an American and that is the standard for most wikis though their basis isn't on an English author. I had no clue gaol was a variant of jail so it is certainly going to be a challenge for me if we don't use the American usages. While categories/titles are obviously going to be important decisions I think if we redirect the English spellings we should be okay. There is no sense in altering text in the talk/forum and I suppose we can leave the article content as-is, though we should probably standardize it. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:38, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

::I'd say: use the English spelling, as the language we use here is ''English'' ;-) So, if article titles are spelled the American way, they should be redirected to the "correct" English spelling (unless it's the name of a company or magazine or whatever). --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 05:45, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

:::I'd just like to comment that at the time that Webster's dictionary (the standard for American English) was published in 1828, both Americans and Englishmen spelled their words in any way they wished, though it is true that some spellings (such as ''centre'') were the most accepted by the British aristocracy. American spellings were actually "officially" established before "English" spellings. And now, I believe that around the world American spellings are more common. The only weight for the argument for English spellings is that Tolkien himself was English. At the moment I am neutral on the subject. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:28, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

== Image copyright issues ==

Just wondering, aren't we violating any copyright issues with all the images we have? Do/Did you actually get permission from the artists to upload their works here? We do credit them, though. [[User:Rog|Rog]] 05:49, 24 August 2006 (EDT)

Orcs of the Mountains

2006-08-24T09:23:47Z

Rog: Added {{fact}} for these Orcs "being somewhat larger than most"

A race of [[Orcs]] that inhabited the [[Misty Mountains]]. They were of a recognisably different kind to other Orcs, being somewhat larger than most,{{fact}} and well adapted for life in their tunnels beneath the [[Mountains]]. Their most important contribution to history was at the beginning of the [[Third Age]], when they descended from their Mountains to attack [[Isildur]] as he rode home from the [[War of the Last Alliance]]. Thus, the Orcs of the Mountains were directly responsible for the loss of the [[Ruling Ring]] that Isildur carried.

Long centuries after that fateful raid, their chieftain [[Azog]] slew the Dwarf-king [[Thrór]], and so triggered the long [[War of the Dwarves and Orcs]]. After that War, most of the Orcs of the Mountains were slain or scattered, but some survived under the leadership of Azog's son [[Bolg]]. They still had a part to play in history: not least because it was the capture of [[Bilbo Baggins]] and his companions by a band of these Orcs that led to the finding of the [[One Ring|Ring]] - the same Ring their ancestors had caused to be lost nearly 3,000 years before.

[[Category:Races]]

John Boorman's The Lord of the Rings

2006-08-19T10:07:43Z

Rog: Fixed format

In the mid-1970s, director [[John Boorman]] planned a film adaptation of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', collaborating with his colleague [[Rospo Pallenberg]] and the current film rights holder and producer [[Saul Zaentz]]. Produced by [[United Artists]], it would have been one long movie with an intermission.

In the script, written by Boorman and Pallenberg, many things were changed and/or added. The first half is largely based on ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''. Following the intermission, the writers “dropped things out” and “invented as they went along”.

Among other things, [[Frodo]] and [[Galadriel]] have sex, the [[Witch-king]] rides a horse whose "''live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed''" in lieu of a flying [[fell beast]], and Aragorn uses both shards of [[Narsil]] with the hilt-less half having a makeshift leather handle (before they are reattached).

The project ultimately proved too expensive to finance at that time. Boorman ended up making the Arthurian epic ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_%28film%29 Excalibur]'' instead, also with Pallenberg's help - where in a draft for that movie’s script they use similar concepts.

==Sources==
*[http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=51271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Boorman's ''The Lord of the Rings'', from forums.theonering.com]
*OUTRE: The World Of Ultramedia, #26
*[http://dandalf.com/dandalf/ExcaliburScript.html Boorman's ''Excalibur'' script - draft]

John Boorman's The Lord of the Rings

2006-08-19T10:06:56Z

Rog: Started page.

In the mid-1970s, director [[John Boorman]] planned a film adaptation of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', collaborating with his colleague [[Rospo Pallenberg]] and the current film rights holder and producer [[Saul Zaentz]]. Produced by [[United Artists]], it would have been one long movie with an intermission.

In the script, written by Boorman and Pallenberg, many things were changed and/or added. The first half is largely based on ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''. Following the intermission, the writers “dropped things out” and “invented as they went along”.

Among other things, [[Frodo]] and [[Galadriel]] have sex, the [[Witch-king]] rides a horse whose "''live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed''" in lieu of a flying [[fell beast]], and Aragorn uses both shards of [[Narsil]] with the hilt-less half having a makeshift leather handle (before they are reattached).

The project ultimately proved too expensive to finance at that time. Boorman ended up making the Arthurian epic ''[[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_%28film%29 Excalibur]]'' instead, also with Pallenberg's help - where in a draft for that movie’s script they use similar concepts.

==Sources==
*[http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=51271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Boorman's ''The Lord of the Rings'', from forums.theonering.com]
*OUTRE: The World Of Ultramedia, #26
*[http://dandalf.com/dandalf/ExcaliburScript.html Boorman's ''Excalibur'' script - draft]

User:Rog

2006-08-19T08:36:41Z

Rog:

Hi. I'm not a "Ringer", just a reader.

Fanon

2006-08-18T13:18:04Z

Rog: Added huge chunk of information copied from Wikipedia and another site.

'''Fanon''' is a term used to refer to "fan [[canon]]" (of which the term is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/portmanteau portmanteau]). It applies to certain "facts" that may have been accepted as a truth by a large number of fans, and thus either replaces an established canonical fact in the minds of those fans, or fills a plot-hole.

==Examples of fanon==
*The [[First Age]] began with the first sunrise over [[Middle-earth]] and the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' took place in the ''Third Age of the Sun''.
**Actually, Tolkien never described his ages as being linked to the Sun and specifically wrote that the "First Age of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]" began with the [[Awakening of the Elves]], long before the first sunrise. Despite this, many fans believe the 'Ages of the Sun' version is ''correct'' because it has been repeated so often.

*[[Fingon]] and [[Maedhros]] were lovers.
**This concept, which frequently appears in slash fan fiction (where writers explore homosexual pairings), derives from their close friendship in the book, but would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic. The less detailed nature of the ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' narrative in comparison to ''The Lord of the Rings'' gives fan fiction writers more leeway for developing a Fingon-Maedhros romance and its possible historical significance than exists with respect to a [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]-[[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] or [[Aragorn]]-[[Legolas]] relationship.

*The friendship of Frodo and Sam had homoerotic overtones.
**This concept, which has generated a great deal of slash fan fiction, derives from a modern interpretation of a book written in a different era, and would also have been likely rejected by Tolkien. (In an amusing nod to this idea, when TBS aired the film trilogy, some of their ads implied a homosexual relationship between Frodo and Sam, with the song "Secret Lovers" being played during the commercial.)

*The friendship of Aragorn and Legolas had homoerotic overtones.
**As with Frodo and Sam, this idea has produced a large amount of slash and would most likely have been rejected by Tolkien. However, this case is slightly different in that the idea largely derives from the films rather than the books, since the films emphasize the Aragorn-Legolas friendship more than the books do.

*The [[Arkenstone]] was a [[Silmaril]], probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the [[Khazad]] of [[Erebor]].

*Late in the life of [[Elros]] his brother [[Elrond]] visited him in [[Númenor]] and was shocked to see how old he had grown, having chosen the mortality of [[Men]].
**An obscure note published in ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'' implies that Tolkien considered the possibility that Elrond and Elros originally sailed to Númenor together and that Elrond later returned to Middle-earth. However, there is no reference in Tolkien's writings to Elrond visiting Elros in his old age.

*[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]], the twin sons of Elrond, are jokesters and tricksters.
**This is a common characterization of them in fan fiction and may have been inspired by the depiction of the Weasley twins in J.K. Rowling's ''Harry Potter'' books as well as that of Merry and Pippin in Peter Jackson's films.

*[[Celebrían]], the mother of [[Arwen]], wife of Elrond and daughter of [[Galadriel]], was raped by the [[Orcs]] who captured her.
**According to this theory, Tolkien intended to convey the fact of the rape obliquely when he wrote that Celebrían received a "poisoned wound". This idea may or may not be contradicted by Tolkien's statement (in the notes to "[[Laws and Customs Among the Eldar]]" in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'') that [[Elves]] passed directly to [[Mandos]] (i.e. die) if they were raped, since that statement seems to refer specifically to rape committed by an Elf.

*Aragorn may have become the biological father of [[Boromir]] and/or [[Faramir]] during his time in [[Gondor]] as "[[Thorongil]]".
**According to Appendices A and B of ''The Lord of the Rings'', "Thorongil" departed from Gondor in T.A. 2980; Boromir was born in 2978 and Faramir in 2983. Thus Aragorn was apparently in Gondor at the time of Boromir's birth (but not Faramir's). However, there is no evidence whatsoever in Tolkien's writings for an affair between Aragorn and [[Finduilas]] (the wife of [[Denethor]]). Such an occurrence would contradict Tolkien's devout Catholic viewpoint and the fact that Aragorn was raised among the Elves, for whom adultery was unthinkable.

*[[Faramir]] was known as "the Raven of [[Gondor]]" due to his status as the guardian of [[Ithilien]].
**This concept apparently derives from Tolkien describing Faramir's ''hair color'' as "raven". The designers of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Two Towers|The Two Towers]]'' film used ravens as a visual motif for Faramir. However, the title "the Raven of Gondor" is never used in Tolkien's writings or in the films.

*Arwen was the last Elf born in Middle-earth.
**This concept derives from publicity for the films, but is never stated in the films or the books.

*Legolas is 2931 years old during the [[War of the Ring]], and thus was born in T.A. 87.
**This information also comes from film publicity and is never stated in the films or books. It may derive from the fact that ''Aragorn'' was born in the ''year'' T.A. 2931. The date of T.A. 87 for Legolas' birth agrees with another common fan theory, namely that Legolas was born during the period of peace at the beginning of the [[Third Age]]. This is neither confirmed nor denied by Tolkien, who never reveals Legolas' birthdate.

*Legolas is blond.
**This is a visual tradition dating back to the works of the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]] in the 1970s and followed in both the [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings|animated]] and [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings|live action]] LotR films. However, Tolkien never specifies Legolas' hair color (although ''[[The Hobbit]]'' mentions that [[Thranduil]], Legolas' father, was blond). Legolas' hair color is one of the most enduring controversies in [[Tolkien fandom]].

*Thranduil, Legolas' father, was an abusive parent.
**This characterization appears frequently in fan fiction and is proposed as an explanation for Legolas being sent to Rivendell and for his referring to Thranduil as "my Elven lord" rather than "my father". However, ''The Hobbit'' depicts Thranduil in reasonably positive terms, especially given his status as the [[Dwarves]]' antagonist for part of the story.

*The names of all nine [[Nazgûl]] are known: Er-Murazor (the [[Witch-king of Angmar]]), [[Khamûl]], Dwar of Waw, Ji Indur Dawndeath, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel the Quiet (female — see below), Ren the Unclean and Uvatha the Horseman.
**In fact Tolkien recorded the name of only one Nazgûl: Khamûl, the [[Black Rider]] who barely missed catching the [[Hobbits]] at [[Bucklebury Ferry]]. Even the personal name of the [[Witch-King of Angmar]] was not given by Tolkien, although some fans refer to him as "[[Angmar]]". The names for the eight Nazgûl other than Khamûl which some fans think were coined by Tolkien were actually invented for the [[Middle-earth Role Playing]] game (MERP) published by [[Iron Crown Enterprises]] (ICE).

*One of the nine Nazgûl was female.
**This concept also comes from MERP. Tolkien's texts seemingly contradict this idea with their consistent references to the Nazgûl as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women and "kings" includes queens. Unsurprisingly, the film version of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'' contradicts this idea by showing all nine Nazgûl as men when they received their [[Rings of Power]].

*There is an Elven-archer in [[Mirkwood]] named Silindë, described as a tall, blond Sinda. **''Silindë'' is [[Quenya]] and should not be used to name an Elf in Mirkwood. Nor is it likely that a Sinda would be blond. Silindë is one of the more prominent characters in a large group of Elves in the films whose names are in use on the Internet despite not being established by Tolkien. Some of these Elves (including Silindë) were named in [[Decipher Inc.]]'s [[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]; others were simply assigned names by Internet fandom. The Elf named Silindë by Decipher appears at the [[Council of Elrond]] in the film of ''[[Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', and is played by [[Sam Kelly]].

*The name of Legolas' mother is known.
**In fact a name was coined for her for MERP, but never by Tolkien.

*The [[War of the Ring]] included a "War in the North", which involved fighting in [[Eriador]] and around [[Rivendell]].
**This has been stated as fact by the writers of the films in a DVD commentary and has formed the basis for parts of the 2006 computer game ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''. However, although Tolkien mentions violent incidents around [[Bree]] during the War (not to mention the [[Scouring of the Shire]]), no extensive military campaign in Eriador is mentioned in the [[Tale of Years]] in Appendix B of ''The Lord of the Rings''. Since the Tale of Years does mention the [[Battle of Dale]] and the fighting around [[Lothlórien]], it is clear that it would also have mentioned the "War in the North" if it had been part of Tolkien's conception. Moreover, the section of Appendix A on the Dwarves includes comments by [[Gandalf]] to the effect that extensive, destructive fighting in Eriador was averted by the death of [[Smaug]] and the Battles of [[Battle of Five Armies|Five Armies]] and of [[Dale]].

*In addition to their son [[Eldarion]], Aragorn and Arwen had as many as four or eight daughters.
**Tolkien's only reference to their children other than Eldarion is a mention of Arwen's "daughters", which could refer to as few as two. Moreover, Elves tended to have few childbirths (the six births of [[Fëanor]] and [[Nerdanel]]'s seven children were unparallelled), and Arwen was [[Half-elven]].

*The whole continent of [[Middle-earth]] resembles Europe with respective continents for Asia and Africa, while [[Valinor]] is in the place of the United States and has a crescent shape.
**This derives from ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]'', which tried to composite a map of [[Arda]] based on a drawing by Tolkien (made in the late 1930s or early 40s and published in ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'') and the later well-known maps of [[Beleriand]] and the coasts of Middle-earth. Although this old map generally fits the descriptions of the canonical ''Silmarillion'', it is a matter of debate whether earlier concepts of Tolkien's can be used to fill the gaps of later works such as LotR.

*Elves and Hobbits have pointy ears.
**This is nowhere stated in ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'' and in ''The Silmarillion'', though Tolkien implied that Hobbit ears were pointed in a letter he wrote later about illustrations, and that Elven ears were pointed in the "[[The Etymologies (Tolkien)|Etymologies]]" published in ''[[The Lost Road]]''. See [[Elves]], [http://www.tolkiensociety.org/faq01.html#pointed_ears Tolkien FAQ].

*Hobbits have huge feet.
**Tolkien wrote: "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads". The idea that they have very large feet, as depicted in the movies, probably derives from illustrations by the [[Brothers Hildebrandt]].

*Déagol is Sméagol's cousin.
**Tolkien only calls him Sméagol's ''friend'' in ''The Lord of the Rings'', though in ''The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien'' he writes that Déagol was "evidently a relative (as no doubt all the members of the small community were)" of Sméagol’s. This fanon probably dates from ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' by [[Robert Foster]] and ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'' by [[David Day]]. [http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020101.html]

==Other kinds of fanon==
Due to the nature of the work, much pseudo-scientific speculation is encouraged in order to explain motivations, facts, reactions and generally fill some gaps. This differs from proper fanon since such study does not invent new elements from scratch, but rather attempts to reveal ''how'' canon is. See also [[Tolkienology]].

Fanon can also take the form of personal beliefs held by individuals. In this case, an individual may create an expansive backstory, possibly a fan fiction, which they accept as "true." These have less standing than even the fanon mentioned above, and thus are not included on [[Tolkien Gateway]].

Category talk:Dwarven clans

2006-08-16T08:09:15Z

Rog:

This should be Dwarven "houses". [[User:Rog|Rog]] 04:09, 16 August 2006 (EDT)

Talk:Main Page

2006-08-16T02:56:04Z

Rog: /* Canon and other things */

As my knowledge of all things [[Tolkien]] is far inferior to that of some things [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki Wiki], I want to suggest some things...

First of all: Page titles such as [[Barahir grandson of Faramir]] should be avoided as much as possible. Only when there are more than one [[Barahir]]s should this be used. If you have to do this, do it this way: '''Barahir (grandson of Faramir)''' so you don't forget whether or not you added that dratted comma...

Further it might be an idea to add a sort of "pub" for this kind of discussions. - [[User:Bokkie|Bokkie]] 18:04, 3 Sep 2005 (EDT)

==Good Ideas==
Great points. Barahir is one of those names that are used quite frequently, i.e. [[Barahir son of Bregor]], [[Barahir son of Hador]], [[Barahir grandson of Faramir]], etc. In the beginning I was debating whether to do the parenthesis or not, but now that you bring it up, it is most likely something that we need to use.

A portal for discussion other than the main page is a good idea too, I'll try and think of a good name for something, although [[Portal]] might work, heh.

Thanks for your comments. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:45, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)
==Feedback==
Very intresting wiki site!... Thanx! --[[User:213.228.84.66|213.228.84.66]] 18:31, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

* Thanks for the compliment :) It's people like you who keep me motivated. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:45, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

== license? ==
Is the content here GFDL? [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 07:18, 6 March 2006 (EST)

:What do you mean? --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 07:36, 6 March 2006 (EST)

::I mean is it available under the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Free_Documentation_License - can it be copied to other sites under the provisions of that licence? Also if content has been copied from wikipedia, shouldnt it be acknowledged? [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 08:30, 6 March 2006 (EST)

:::Hello [[User:Gimli|Gimli]], yes our content is under the same license, GNU FDL as [http://www.wikipedia.org Wikipedia]. Any articles derived from Wikipedia will be rewritten so we have no plans to add an acknowledgement on the articles at this time. [http://lotr.wikicities Wikicities] is free to copy our content but it is disappointing to see so many wikis working against eachother. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 10:26, 6 March 2006 (EST)

::::Hi Hyarion, I was doing alot of work on the [http://lotr.wikicities.com/wiki lotr wiki] without realising this site existed until a few days ago. now Im not sure what to do since the lotr wikicities community is going fairly well but has nowhere near as many articles as here. not sure if its worth trying to copy or what - perhaps there could be some way we could agree to format/arrange articles differently to justify having 2 tolkien wikis [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 19:47, 6 March 2006 (EST)

:::::Ya I'm not really sure either. There's also [http://www.thetolkienwiki.org The Tolkien Wiki] and a couple other wikis out there too. I honestly can't think of any aspects the two wikis would differ on off the top of my head but let me know if you think of anything. I know Robin from the lotr wiki said he was going to concentrate on [[The Lord of the Rings]] and since we cover more than just that they didn't want to merge. Competition is always nice but I just don't like watching us waste our time doing the same things. Let me know what I can do. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:39, 6 March 2006 (EST)

::::::That sounds alright to me especially since I am not very familiar with [[Silmarillion]] related things - I guess just because of the wikis names wikicities could focus on LOTR and you on JRR Tolkien himself? [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 02:53, 9 March 2006 (EST)

::::::: Heh, unfortunately that would leave us with around 100 articles :p. Our goal since we started has been to focus on everything related to [[J.R.R. Tolkien]], including his works, non-canon material, secondary material, collectibles, languages, films, the fans, etc. As we've devoted so much time to this already I think we will be continuing on this path, sorry. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:36, 9 March 2006 (EST)

== Main page redesign ==

I'm trying to redesign the main page a bit so as to not scare off any visitors. If you have any suggestions just let me know and I'll add them. The introduction text should probably be rewritten, possibly shorter. I also think instead of a featured image and a featured article we could showcase a featured article with an image from that article, and a bit more text directly from the article. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:12, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

:IMO, the link to '''Welcome''' in the opening sentence is unnecessary, as the welcome message is just below it. Coupling the featured picture to the featured article is a sound idea if you'd ask me; gives the page some more coherence *thumbs up*. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 17:04, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

::Hm, good point I can take it off for now, eventually I'd like to remove the welcome statement from the main page and add it to the welcome page, and then also add a [[Tolkien Gateway]] page with information about the site if the welcome is not enough (and link to that as well). Then we can focus on news / featured articles / navigation links, hopefully it will be self-explanatory enough that people won't get confused, though I doubt many even read the paragraph. I'll try and get a Featured article page rotation going so people can submit possible featured articles, vote on them, and move them onto the main page a bit faster, as now it's just random. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:10, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

:::Personnally, I've no problem with a randomly chosen featured article. Why complicate things with voting and stuff? It also will point people to lesser know articles. If it's really a daily new featured article, it will liven things up a bit. Why not make it an hourly featured article, will pace the rotations circle a bit up (by a factor of 24, to be precise)! --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 17:16, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

::::Hehe, hm, definitely a thought. I'll see if I can rig something to do it automatically but we might have to change it manually. What we could do is have [[Featured article/April 23 2006]] and the main page could have <nowiki>[[:Featured article/{{CURRENTDAY}}]]</nowiki>. I think one reason people do vote for Featured articles as it allows competition for users to rewrite and tidy up articles in hopes that their work would be featured on the main page. And if we did this we could also have an Improvement center where we post articles that need to be improved. But combining the two by doing random featured articles would work great too. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:22, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

== Purpose of site? ==

This is going to come across badly, I'm sure, so I apologize in advance for my skepticism. But, er, what exactly is the purpose of the Tolkien Gateway as opposed to the various other Tolkien wikis online (or, for that matter, Wikipedia itself)? In particular, it looks like a number of the articles here are at least currently based on the corresponding entries from Wikipedia. What was the argument for branching them off to form a separate site rather than simply improving them in place? (Not that I object to the impulse to create one's own site, mind you! But I feel some level of concern about fragmentation of effort.) [http://tolkien.slimy.com/ Steuard] --[[User:128.135.152.14|128.135.152.14]] 12:24, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

===Hyarion's response===
''Adding my own header as it looks like I've gone off and written a novel''

Hello Steuard, what an honor to have you here, make yourself at home :) Don't worry, your question doesn't come across badly as why we are here is an important question.

Your first question is why should we be here when there are other Tolkien wikis, good question. We’ve been around for over 3 years now, well before much of the hype surrounding wikis and when everyone and their grandmother decided to have one. With almost 4,500 articles we are currently the largest and most active Tolkien-related wiki or encyclopedia for that matter. With hundreds of updates a day, we are really growing fast and it becomes much more than one person could do on their own.

There are a couple other wikis that I have knowledge of, [http://www.thetolkienwiki.org The Tolkien Wiki] being one. I’m not a fan of that particular engine and unfortunately the activity is minimal but Walter is a great guy. Then there is [http://lotr.wikia.com lotr.wikia.com] which started later and though at first they stated they were concentrating on [[The Lord of the Rings]] it seems they have since changed and now have MERP related articles, I'm not sure where they are heading to be honest (not to sound rude I hope as I honestly don't). They also have advertisements and are a for-profit company, I don’t think the Tolkien Estate will be very pleased. There’s also a few non-English Tolkien wikis, [http://ardapedia.herr-der-ringe-film.de/index.php/Hauptseite Ardapedia] and [http://kontu.merri.net/wiki/Etusivu Kontu Wiki], I actually convinced Merri to start the Finnish wiki and he has done a great job with it. We are also considering expanding into other languages as well but we will probably concentrate on English for the next few years before trying to expand.

Wikipedia is a great project but unfortunately they can only concentrate on the major Tolkien-related articles. While we focus on ''everything'', including essays, reviews, music, publications, collectibles, images, etc. [http://starwars.wikia.com Wookieepedia] is an example of where we are heading as they have well over 30,000 articles, by far too many for any environment not specializing on the subject.

You will notice that some articles have roots from Wikipedia, yes. When we started out we borrowed some content from them as is allowed with the GNU FDL. However we have greatly improved on those articles and have been rewriting them from the ground up constantly. You will find many of our editors on the site still contribute to the Tolkien articles on Wikipedia and we are by no means trying to mimic what they do.

It seems the above still doesn’t create a convincing answer so here are some raw projects that we are working on that we would not be able to accomplish on Wikipedia:
* We are listing '''all''' Amon Hen, Mallorn, Beyond Bree, Orcrist, LotR Fan Club, Tolkien Journal, Parma Nole, Lembas Extra, Arda, etc. journals and putting their contents and cover page on their own articles. The article will of course contain links to purchase the back issue as well as the official site of the publication.
* We also received the rights this week to store all of the [[Fraud of the Rings]] comics, this is something not even freely available on the official site.

* The [[Tolkien Google logo petition]] is something else Wikipedia would not condone.
* Screenplays for purists and The Hobbit are other projects we currently are working on.
* We also are trying to have an article for every single Tolkien-related game.
* Archiving any and all Tolkien imagery
* Listing any and all Tolkien-inspired music
* Listing all collectibles related to Tolkien and his works
* Listing all books related to the Professor and his works
[[Tolkien Gateway:Projects|etc.]]

This being said our main goal is focusing on the legendarium and the Tolkien-inspired items are only a secondary objective.

It is probably better to look at Tolkien Gateway as a community more so than simply a wiki. We also run [http://tolkiennews.net TolkienNews.net] and host sites such the [http://www.herenistarion.org North East Tolkien Society], [http://www.shirepost.com ShirePost.com], and a few more on the horizon. We also run the Tolkien IRC Network which averages 20-30 users in the main lobby and hosts sites such as [http://www.minastirith.com minastirith.com], [http://www.ancanar.com ancanar.com], [http://www.herenistarion.org herenistarion.org], [http://www.imladris.dk imladris.dk], [http://www.lotrosource.com lotrosource.com], [http://www.ardapost.com ardapost.com], etc.

Now that just looks like one big advertisement…sorry about that. If you need me to be more specific on something please let me know. We are always very open to new ideas and if you have any suggestions please let us know.

One thing I’ve been meaning to talk to you about is linking to your FAQ as well as the newsgroups. What we’ve been doing with Tolkien forums is when there is a specific topic being discussed, such as the whereabouts of the [[Entwives]], we link our article to their thread. I’d like to do this with both the Meta-FAQ and newsgroups so for example on our article on [[the Shire]] we could link to your FAQ on whether the Shire was meant to be England, etc.

Thanks for dropping by as it means a lot to us, and keep up the great work on your sites! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:05, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

:Good answer. :) It does sound like you'll be much freer to add information on "minor" topics here than you would be on a broad site like Wikipedia; I think you've convinced me that it's a good idea. I hope that some level of cross-fertilization goes on between the community here and the community there.

:As for my Meta-FAQ (and related work), you are of course welcome to link to any bits of it that you think would be useful. (That's something else that some folks might have a problem with on Wikipedia, come to think of it.) I've always wished that I had time to track down the best Usenet newsgroup threads to link to for each of my FAQ topics, but real life keeps me too busy these days to consider such a major project. It would have been much easier if, like you, I'd started keeping track of the threads at the same time that I started writing the FAQ! In any case, best wishes with the site, and many thanks for your detailed answer to my question. [http://tolkien.slimy.com/ Steuard] --[[User:128.135.152.14|128.135.152.14]] 16:23, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

== Quotes ==

Some wikis (namely the Star Wars wiki) use quotes to describe articles. i.e. "''A demon of the ancheint world. This foe is beyond any of you.''" -[[Gandalf]] would describe the [[Balrog]]. Could we start doing this? -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:31, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

:Hello Lord Vad...Aragorn, we like to think of Wookieepedia as our sister wiki as we tend to borrow quite a few ideas from them. Quotes at the top of articles to describe the character/place/item/etc are one of these ideas. We haven't fully implemented all the articles but some such as [[Hobbits]] or [[The Silmarillion]] or [[Dragons]], etc. display this idea. This is something we definitely wish to expand on and if you have any quotes you would like to use feel free to do so. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:40, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
::Okay then, thank you! You like to play on my name alot don't you? That's okay, though. ;) -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:46, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

== Canon and other things ==

First off, I'm wondering what "canon" this encyclopedia will use. As of now, it's inconsistent: for example, there are two [[Glorfindel]]s, but has Orodreth, not Fingon, as Gil-galad's father.

Secondly, all the non-movie art is very nice, since I don't care much for the Jackson films having, in general, "supremacy" through images (quite irritating in Wikipedia, though the editors have lately arranged adaptation pictures in tables - gives equal treatment to ''all'', not just the Jackson ones). Ideally, all appropriate articles should have artworks before film images.

Finally, could someone make a ''[[The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare]]'' article, so we can cut it up (i.e. point out some total inventions) for the non-book readers? Info from that book has been inserted in Wikipedia articles; thankfully thy were deleted. [[User:Rog|Rog]] 22:49, 15 August 2006 (EDT)

Talk:Main Page

2006-08-16T02:49:24Z

Rog: Canon and other things

As my knowledge of all things [[Tolkien]] is far inferior to that of some things [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki Wiki], I want to suggest some things...

First of all: Page titles such as [[Barahir grandson of Faramir]] should be avoided as much as possible. Only when there are more than one [[Barahir]]s should this be used. If you have to do this, do it this way: '''Barahir (grandson of Faramir)''' so you don't forget whether or not you added that dratted comma...

Further it might be an idea to add a sort of "pub" for this kind of discussions. - [[User:Bokkie|Bokkie]] 18:04, 3 Sep 2005 (EDT)

==Good Ideas==
Great points. Barahir is one of those names that are used quite frequently, i.e. [[Barahir son of Bregor]], [[Barahir son of Hador]], [[Barahir grandson of Faramir]], etc. In the beginning I was debating whether to do the parenthesis or not, but now that you bring it up, it is most likely something that we need to use.

A portal for discussion other than the main page is a good idea too, I'll try and think of a good name for something, although [[Portal]] might work, heh.

Thanks for your comments. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:45, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)
==Feedback==
Very intresting wiki site!... Thanx! --[[User:213.228.84.66|213.228.84.66]] 18:31, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

* Thanks for the compliment :) It's people like you who keep me motivated. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:45, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

== license? ==
Is the content here GFDL? [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 07:18, 6 March 2006 (EST)

:What do you mean? --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 07:36, 6 March 2006 (EST)

::I mean is it available under the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Free_Documentation_License - can it be copied to other sites under the provisions of that licence? Also if content has been copied from wikipedia, shouldnt it be acknowledged? [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 08:30, 6 March 2006 (EST)

:::Hello [[User:Gimli|Gimli]], yes our content is under the same license, GNU FDL as [http://www.wikipedia.org Wikipedia]. Any articles derived from Wikipedia will be rewritten so we have no plans to add an acknowledgement on the articles at this time. [http://lotr.wikicities Wikicities] is free to copy our content but it is disappointing to see so many wikis working against eachother. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 10:26, 6 March 2006 (EST)

::::Hi Hyarion, I was doing alot of work on the [http://lotr.wikicities.com/wiki lotr wiki] without realising this site existed until a few days ago. now Im not sure what to do since the lotr wikicities community is going fairly well but has nowhere near as many articles as here. not sure if its worth trying to copy or what - perhaps there could be some way we could agree to format/arrange articles differently to justify having 2 tolkien wikis [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 19:47, 6 March 2006 (EST)

:::::Ya I'm not really sure either. There's also [http://www.thetolkienwiki.org The Tolkien Wiki] and a couple other wikis out there too. I honestly can't think of any aspects the two wikis would differ on off the top of my head but let me know if you think of anything. I know Robin from the lotr wiki said he was going to concentrate on [[The Lord of the Rings]] and since we cover more than just that they didn't want to merge. Competition is always nice but I just don't like watching us waste our time doing the same things. Let me know what I can do. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 20:39, 6 March 2006 (EST)

::::::That sounds alright to me especially since I am not very familiar with [[Silmarillion]] related things - I guess just because of the wikis names wikicities could focus on LOTR and you on JRR Tolkien himself? [[User:Gimli|Gimli]] 02:53, 9 March 2006 (EST)

::::::: Heh, unfortunately that would leave us with around 100 articles :p. Our goal since we started has been to focus on everything related to [[J.R.R. Tolkien]], including his works, non-canon material, secondary material, collectibles, languages, films, the fans, etc. As we've devoted so much time to this already I think we will be continuing on this path, sorry. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 11:36, 9 March 2006 (EST)

== Main page redesign ==

I'm trying to redesign the main page a bit so as to not scare off any visitors. If you have any suggestions just let me know and I'll add them. The introduction text should probably be rewritten, possibly shorter. I also think instead of a featured image and a featured article we could showcase a featured article with an image from that article, and a bit more text directly from the article. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 16:12, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

:IMO, the link to '''Welcome''' in the opening sentence is unnecessary, as the welcome message is just below it. Coupling the featured picture to the featured article is a sound idea if you'd ask me; gives the page some more coherence *thumbs up*. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 17:04, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

::Hm, good point I can take it off for now, eventually I'd like to remove the welcome statement from the main page and add it to the welcome page, and then also add a [[Tolkien Gateway]] page with information about the site if the welcome is not enough (and link to that as well). Then we can focus on news / featured articles / navigation links, hopefully it will be self-explanatory enough that people won't get confused, though I doubt many even read the paragraph. I'll try and get a Featured article page rotation going so people can submit possible featured articles, vote on them, and move them onto the main page a bit faster, as now it's just random. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:10, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

:::Personnally, I've no problem with a randomly chosen featured article. Why complicate things with voting and stuff? It also will point people to lesser know articles. If it's really a daily new featured article, it will liven things up a bit. Why not make it an hourly featured article, will pace the rotations circle a bit up (by a factor of 24, to be precise)! --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 17:16, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

::::Hehe, hm, definitely a thought. I'll see if I can rig something to do it automatically but we might have to change it manually. What we could do is have [[Featured article/April 23 2006]] and the main page could have <nowiki>[[:Featured article/{{CURRENTDAY}}]]</nowiki>. I think one reason people do vote for Featured articles as it allows competition for users to rewrite and tidy up articles in hopes that their work would be featured on the main page. And if we did this we could also have an Improvement center where we post articles that need to be improved. But combining the two by doing random featured articles would work great too. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 17:22, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

== Purpose of site? ==

This is going to come across badly, I'm sure, so I apologize in advance for my skepticism. But, er, what exactly is the purpose of the Tolkien Gateway as opposed to the various other Tolkien wikis online (or, for that matter, Wikipedia itself)? In particular, it looks like a number of the articles here are at least currently based on the corresponding entries from Wikipedia. What was the argument for branching them off to form a separate site rather than simply improving them in place? (Not that I object to the impulse to create one's own site, mind you! But I feel some level of concern about fragmentation of effort.) [http://tolkien.slimy.com/ Steuard] --[[User:128.135.152.14|128.135.152.14]] 12:24, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

===Hyarion's response===
''Adding my own header as it looks like I've gone off and written a novel''

Hello Steuard, what an honor to have you here, make yourself at home :) Don't worry, your question doesn't come across badly as why we are here is an important question.

Your first question is why should we be here when there are other Tolkien wikis, good question. We’ve been around for over 3 years now, well before much of the hype surrounding wikis and when everyone and their grandmother decided to have one. With almost 4,500 articles we are currently the largest and most active Tolkien-related wiki or encyclopedia for that matter. With hundreds of updates a day, we are really growing fast and it becomes much more than one person could do on their own.

There are a couple other wikis that I have knowledge of, [http://www.thetolkienwiki.org The Tolkien Wiki] being one. I’m not a fan of that particular engine and unfortunately the activity is minimal but Walter is a great guy. Then there is [http://lotr.wikia.com lotr.wikia.com] which started later and though at first they stated they were concentrating on [[The Lord of the Rings]] it seems they have since changed and now have MERP related articles, I'm not sure where they are heading to be honest (not to sound rude I hope as I honestly don't). They also have advertisements and are a for-profit company, I don’t think the Tolkien Estate will be very pleased. There’s also a few non-English Tolkien wikis, [http://ardapedia.herr-der-ringe-film.de/index.php/Hauptseite Ardapedia] and [http://kontu.merri.net/wiki/Etusivu Kontu Wiki], I actually convinced Merri to start the Finnish wiki and he has done a great job with it. We are also considering expanding into other languages as well but we will probably concentrate on English for the next few years before trying to expand.

Wikipedia is a great project but unfortunately they can only concentrate on the major Tolkien-related articles. While we focus on ''everything'', including essays, reviews, music, publications, collectibles, images, etc. [http://starwars.wikia.com Wookieepedia] is an example of where we are heading as they have well over 30,000 articles, by far too many for any environment not specializing on the subject.

You will notice that some articles have roots from Wikipedia, yes. When we started out we borrowed some content from them as is allowed with the GNU FDL. However we have greatly improved on those articles and have been rewriting them from the ground up constantly. You will find many of our editors on the site still contribute to the Tolkien articles on Wikipedia and we are by no means trying to mimic what they do.

It seems the above still doesn’t create a convincing answer so here are some raw projects that we are working on that we would not be able to accomplish on Wikipedia:
* We are listing '''all''' Amon Hen, Mallorn, Beyond Bree, Orcrist, LotR Fan Club, Tolkien Journal, Parma Nole, Lembas Extra, Arda, etc. journals and putting their contents and cover page on their own articles. The article will of course contain links to purchase the back issue as well as the official site of the publication.
* We also received the rights this week to store all of the [[Fraud of the Rings]] comics, this is something not even freely available on the official site.

* The [[Tolkien Google logo petition]] is something else Wikipedia would not condone.
* Screenplays for purists and The Hobbit are other projects we currently are working on.
* We also are trying to have an article for every single Tolkien-related game.
* Archiving any and all Tolkien imagery
* Listing any and all Tolkien-inspired music
* Listing all collectibles related to Tolkien and his works
* Listing all books related to the Professor and his works
[[Tolkien Gateway:Projects|etc.]]

This being said our main goal is focusing on the legendarium and the Tolkien-inspired items are only a secondary objective.

It is probably better to look at Tolkien Gateway as a community more so than simply a wiki. We also run [http://tolkiennews.net TolkienNews.net] and host sites such the [http://www.herenistarion.org North East Tolkien Society], [http://www.shirepost.com ShirePost.com], and a few more on the horizon. We also run the Tolkien IRC Network which averages 20-30 users in the main lobby and hosts sites such as [http://www.minastirith.com minastirith.com], [http://www.ancanar.com ancanar.com], [http://www.herenistarion.org herenistarion.org], [http://www.imladris.dk imladris.dk], [http://www.lotrosource.com lotrosource.com], [http://www.ardapost.com ardapost.com], etc.

Now that just looks like one big advertisement…sorry about that. If you need me to be more specific on something please let me know. We are always very open to new ideas and if you have any suggestions please let us know.

One thing I’ve been meaning to talk to you about is linking to your FAQ as well as the newsgroups. What we’ve been doing with Tolkien forums is when there is a specific topic being discussed, such as the whereabouts of the [[Entwives]], we link our article to their thread. I’d like to do this with both the Meta-FAQ and newsgroups so for example on our article on [[the Shire]] we could link to your FAQ on whether the Shire was meant to be England, etc.

Thanks for dropping by as it means a lot to us, and keep up the great work on your sites! --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:05, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

:Good answer. :) It does sound like you'll be much freer to add information on "minor" topics here than you would be on a broad site like Wikipedia; I think you've convinced me that it's a good idea. I hope that some level of cross-fertilization goes on between the community here and the community there.

:As for my Meta-FAQ (and related work), you are of course welcome to link to any bits of it that you think would be useful. (That's something else that some folks might have a problem with on Wikipedia, come to think of it.) I've always wished that I had time to track down the best Usenet newsgroup threads to link to for each of my FAQ topics, but real life keeps me too busy these days to consider such a major project. It would have been much easier if, like you, I'd started keeping track of the threads at the same time that I started writing the FAQ! In any case, best wishes with the site, and many thanks for your detailed answer to my question. [http://tolkien.slimy.com/ Steuard] --[[User:128.135.152.14|128.135.152.14]] 16:23, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

== Quotes ==

Some wikis (namely the Star Wars wiki) use quotes to describe articles. i.e. "''A demon of the ancheint world. This foe is beyond any of you.''" -[[Gandalf]] would describe the [[Balrog]]. Could we start doing this? -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:31, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

:Hello Lord Vad...Aragorn, we like to think of Wookieepedia as our sister wiki as we tend to borrow quite a few ideas from them. Quotes at the top of articles to describe the character/place/item/etc are one of these ideas. We haven't fully implemented all the articles but some such as [[Hobbits]] or [[The Silmarillion]] or [[Dragons]], etc. display this idea. This is something we definitely wish to expand on and if you have any quotes you would like to use feel free to do so. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 14:40, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
::Okay then, thank you! You like to play on my name alot don't you? That's okay, though. ;) -[[User:Lord Aragorn1414|Lord Aragorn1414]] 14:46, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

== Canon and other things ==

First off, I'm wondering what "canon" this encyclopedia will use. As of now, it's inconsistent: for example, there are two [[Glorfindel]]s, but has Orodreth, not Fingon, as Gil-galad's father.

Secondly, all the non-movie art is very nice, since I don't care much for the Jackson films having "supremacy" through images (very pesky in Wikipedia!). Ideally, all appropriate articles should have artworks before film images. [[User:Rog|Rog]] 22:49, 15 August 2006 (EDT)

Forums:Canon scale

2006-08-16T02:37:30Z

Rog:

<div style="background: #eee; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 5px">'''[[Main Page|Tolkien Gateway]] > [[Forum:Council|Council]] > {{PAGENAME}}'''</div> [[Category:Council]]


I had an idea, what if we created some sort of scale, like 1-5 or 1-10 or something that would specify how canonical (?) an article is considered. Just something to help people identify how scholars view the character/thing. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 10:49 2006 (EST)

:I don't think one can make a "scale of canonicity". The question of 'canon' or 'non-canon' is far too cmplicated and individualistic I think. One could make a list like 'published', 'postumously published', 'early idea, later discarded', 'late writing', and the like, I guess, with the reader him/herself deciding on canonicity. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 15:24, 5 March 2006 (EST)

::You're probably right. But I think even works like [[The Lord of the Rings]] aren't perfect. For example in the latest edition [[Aiglos]] was changed to [[Aeglos]]. In my opinion [[Aeglos]] would be considered more canon even though it was altered after [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s death. I guess as long as we specify what makes the character/item/etc canon or non-canon then that would be sufficient. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:32, 5 March 2006 (EST)

:::We could add '''Notes on Canonicity''' at the end of certain articles, if we think that's necessary, with arguments pro and con its (non)canonicity. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 15:47, 5 March 2006 (EST)

::::Hi, new user. I wrote a note on [[Talk:Glorfindel]] anonymously questioning why this encyclopedia has Orodreth as Gil-galad's father, yet insists on having two Glorfindels. [[User:Rog|Rog]] 22:37, 15 August 2006 (EDT)