Forums:Theory on Maia

2010-04-28T07:08:46Z

SarumanTheWhite:

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I've been searching around about [[Maia]] and a few things don't quite add up.I suddenly had a "eureka!" moment and came up with this theory:

When Tolkien said "the Maia were sent by the [[Valar]], perhaps he didn't mean "sent" as in their bodies included. Perhaps he meant their ''souls'' alone were sent. Kinda like how Christianity says the "spirit of Jesus came to Earth as a man". In that example, Jesus had mortal parents, yet was the son of God. Thus, his body was the son of his parents, but his soul was the son of God. Perhaps is kinda the same with Maia (though most probably didn't have parents). For example:

-[[Gandalf]] and the other [[Istari]] were Maia, but they were also men.

-Likewise, perhaps [[Galadriel]] was also a Maia, yet sent in the form of an elf.

-Just like [[Durin]], who was possibly also a Maia, but sent as one of the seven [[Fathers of the Dwarves]].

-Then there's the [[Balrog]]s. Tolkien first tells us that there were thousands of them, but later changes this to "between three and seven". Perhaps there ''were'' thousands of ordinary Balrogs, but only seven or so were Maia - these would be the most powerful, such as the one fought by Galdalf in Moria ([[Durin's Bane]]).

-Then there's the [[ents]]. Tolkien only mentions six or so, yet there are clearly much more, as seen in [[Peter Jackson]]'s movie adaptation of [[The Lord of the Rings]]. Perhaps these six or so ents (such as Treebeard) were also Maia!

-Finally, I once read a book (Tolkien's World - witch I now believe to be mostly fanon) witch said that [[Sauron]] was a Maia in the form of an elf (o0). Whether or not this is true or not still remains a mystery to me.

So, perhaps there are still Maia spirits by the side of the Valar, waiting to be sent in some or other physical form. Perhaps a baby could be born and the soul of that baby could be a Maia. Who knows. If only Tolkien still lived, we would have been able to ask him of this. But since he is no longer capable of answering, what do ''you'' think of my theory? -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 08:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Nice that you are thinking about the works of [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] but I think this theory can't be true.

: - [[Gandalf]] was a maia was sended in a human body (he wasn't an men, it was said he looked more like a elf inside)

: - The Children of Ilúvatar were made by Eru Ilúvator alone, not by the Valar.

: - Eru Ilúvatar gave the Dwarves a soul, Aulë hadn't the power to do that.

: - The [[Balrog]]'s numbers were just changed by Tolkien. that were thousand is just non-canon information.

: - Tolkien named 6, but there were many more described at the Entmoot.

: - the thing in your book, isnt true. It has no grounds.

It is however said by Tolkien that the first [[Eagles]], first [[Drakes]], [[Huan]] and [[Vampires]] were [[Maiar]]. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

:: - Ah. So Galdalf was more like some sort of half-elf than a human?

:: - I know the Children of Ilúvatar were made by Eru alone, but what of their decendants? I don't think Tolkien ever said that Ilúvatar/Eru made a soul for every single individual ever to exist, so perhaps some of their souls could have been made by other Valar.

:: - That I know. Eru "adopted" the dwarves and put them to sleep, placing each somewhere within the numerous mountain ranges. How does this discount my theory?

:: - I know. Tolkien originally states that there were thousands, but later changes it to somewhere between 6 and twelve. I simply noted that perhaps there ''were'' thousands, but only 6 to twelve were Maia.

:: - Perhaps the named ents were named because they were of higher importance? Perhaps these named ents (though they all probably had names) were named by Tolkien because they were Maia. Who knows?

:: - It's highly likely that the book at hand was lying. Ederchill has allready proven that much of what is mentioned inside is fanon.

:: - Yes. My theory is partly based on that. Perhaps ''all'' first beings were Maia. Again, who knows? Tolkien never really elaborated on this, so perhaps it's safe to say that there's room for speculation. -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 11:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

::: - He had the body of a human given, but was a maiar. But he was more like one of the elves while in [[Endor]].

::: - None of the [[Valar]] had the ability to give somebody a soul, otherwise they could have make their own races, but it was only [[Eru]] who could do that. They could change the Hroär (body) but not the Fëa (soul).

::: - The [[maiar]] existed already at the begining, and Durin was made thousand years after the Valar and maiar entered [[Eä]]

::: - I think tolkien some where stated that all Balrogs were [[Maiar]].

::: - No, they were named because something happened with them. Quickbeam because he meeted the Hobbits, some other one because he was burned, and the others because they were leaders.

::: - How the hell did that publisher ever got it one the market?

::: - I'm sure that the first [[Dwarves]], [[Elves]] and [[Humans]] were not Maiar. About the most other races you are rigth.
:::--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 13:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

::::[[Wikipedia:Gresham's law|Gresham’s Law]] works for books as well ... — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 04:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::Ah, I see. So my theory is pretty much debunked, right? -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 06:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that this theory is right. First - [[Maia]] had nothing similar to Jesus, because they were not born in middle-earth, they were sent from [[Valinor]] to [[Middle-earth]] by a ship. Second - there could not be that the part of Balrogs of Ents are Maia and the others not! how can it be? If so, what are the other Balrogs and Ents? And also, [[Gendalf]] and [[Saruman]] are not a human, nor a elves, they were something between them, they took a form of old wizards when came from Valinor. And, as I sayed, the Maia were not ''born'', they were ''sent'' to Middle-earth, but [[Galadriel]], and [[Ent]]s also, have parents. Maybe Sauron was some time in a shape of elf, because mostly the Maia were able to change forms, but for some reason the [[Istari]] did not change shapes.

Fall of Fornost

2010-04-25T15:14:07Z

SarumanTheWhite:

{{battle
| name=Fall of Fornost
| image=
| conflict=War of Angmar
| date=[[Third Age 1974|T.A. 1974]]
| place=[[Fornost Erain]]
| result=Decisive Angmar victory
| side1=Men, Elves, Hobbits
| side2=Angmar
| commanders1=[[Arvedui]]
| commanders2=[[Witch-king]]
| forces1=Est. 2-10,000 Men of Arnor, several thousand Elves from, Lindon, Rivendell, and Lothlórien, and 500 Hobbit archers
| forces2=Est. 10-40,000 Orcs, Trolls, Evil Men from Rhudaur and elsewhere, Wolves, other evil creatures
| casual1=Est. Hundreds or even thousands of Men and Elves, along with all 500 Hobbits
| casual2=Est. Thousands
|}}
The '''Fall of Fornost''' was an event that resulted from the defeat of the forces of [[Arnor]], and the taking of their capitol city of [[Fornost]] by the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] and his armies.

== Leading Up to the Siege ==

By the year [[Third Age 1974]] things were looking very grim for the Dúnedain of Arnor. The [[Great Plague]] three hundred years previously had killed most of the people of [[Cardolan]] which later fell to the Witch King. And even with the aid of [[Elves]] and [[Hobbits]] most of the now diminished and totally demoralized people of Arnor were now waiting to make their final stand at Fornost, capitol city of [[Arthedain]].

== Opposing Forces ==

For the forces of [[Eriador]] exact numbers are not known, but it can be estimated that at the most ten thousand [[Men of Arnor]] were present at the city. Along with likely several thousand Elves of [[Lindon]], [[Rivendell]], [[Lothlórien]], and five hundred Hobbits archers from [[the Shire]].

For the forces of [[Angmar]] it can be estimated that there was at least twenty thousand or at the most forty thousand [[Orcs]], Trolls, Evil Men, Wolves, and all other manner of evil creatures.

== The Battle ==

Not much detail is known about what happened, but we know that the forces of Angmar were the decisive victors, and that most of the forces of Eriador were driven west over the River [[Lhûn]]. While King [[Arvedui]] and some of his guard held out north of Fornost, among the [[North Downs]], they could not hold this position for long. When it became untenable, Arvedui fled northwest.

== Aftermath ==

With Arthedain in his hands, the Witch King had conquered all of Arnor. Arvedui perished in the [[Icebay of Forochel]] when a ship sent to rescue him sank in a storm. The Witch King took the throne in the king's palace, until a year later in [[Third Age 1975|T.A. 1975]] when the forces of Eriador had regrouped with newly arrived reinforcements from [[Gondor]]. In the [[Battle of Fornost]] his army was destroyed, and he himself fled east over the [[Misty Mountains]].
Fornost was not resettled after the war. It became a deserted place, feared by the men of [[Bree]], who called it Deadman's Dike. Not until a thousand years later after the [[War of the Ring]] under King [[Aragorn II|Elessar]] was it refounded.

==Sources==
*[[Appendix A]]

[[Category:Conflicts of the Third Age]]

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2010-04-17T12:08:32Z

SarumanTheWhite: Adding welcome message to new user's talk page

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Fall of Fornost

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