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Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

2025-12-19T04:25:41Z

Spearwielder: typo, slighlty more consistency in referring to the "translator"

{{cleanup}}

The '''inconsistencies''' are various vague or contradictory statements that can be found throughout Tolkien's fiction.

Although [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] paid a great deal of attention to detail in his [[Secondary world]] to preserve a realistic consistency,<ref>{{L|236}}</ref> in this vast creation, unavoidably, some more or less degrees of inconsistencies had slipped in. Most can be revealed after more than one reading of the books and through study. Regarding the inconsistencies, [[Christopher Tolkien]] has noted that:
{{blockquote|...the credibility that my father was so anxious to maintain. Of course if he had noticed this inconsistency himself or had it pointed out to him he would have altered it without a second thought.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp>{{HM|RC}}</ref>{{rp|p. xliv}}}}
He also noted that:
{{blockquote|However much my father desired to achieve consistency at every level of his work, from capital letters to the dates of dynasties, he was bound to fail. [...] His life was a perpetual battle against time (& tiredness) [...] But he 'niggled' on a grand and noble conception, & indeed its coherence in fine detail is a part of its power.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp/>{{rp|p. xliii}}}}

J.R.R. Tolkien's comment, late in life, was quoted by Hammond and Scull:
{{blockquote|Personally I have ceased to bother about these minor 'discrepancies', since if the genealogies and calendars etc. lack verisimilitude it is in their general excessive accuracy: as compared with real annals or genealogies! Anyway the slips are few, have mostly been removed, and the discovery of what remain seems an amusing pastime!|Letter to [[Joy Hill]], October 30, 1967, quoted in the "Note on the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]]."}}

Hammond and Scull added, "In fact Tolkien had not 'ceased to bother', and 'slips' were dealt with as opportunities arose."<ref>''The Lord of the Rings'', [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]], "Note on the 50th Anniversary Edition"</ref>

Fans of Tolkien usually accept that in any work there are usually plot holes. In a larger, far more detailed and realistic book we expect fewer (if any) plot holes, when in reality there is a far greater chance because of its complexity.{{Fact}}

The [[legendarium]] supposedly consists of translations and adaptations by a "translator Tolkien", the narrator of the Prologue and Appendices of ''The Lord of the Rings,'' from "ancient sources" such as the [[Red Book]].<ref name="OldPrologue">{{FR|Prologue}}</ref><ref>{{App|F2}}</ref> Inconsistencies can be blamed on that "translator". For instance, he mentions in Appendix D that he might have made many errors on the calendar while translating the ancient sources, a comment Tolkien wrote as a fail-safe for any error he might have made. Likewise inconsistencies can be blamed on the sources. For instance, the "translator" mentions in Appendix F ("Of the Elves") that Frodo had erred in thinking the dialect of Sindarin spoken by the elves of Lórien was Silvan Elvish.<ref>{{FR|II6}}. A footnote directs the reader to the correction in the appendix.</ref>

Such explanations attributing the inconsistencies to the "translator Tolkien" or the "original sources" are easy and unenlightening. Therefore many fans prefer to explain them with some internal explanation. Most of the explanations below are of this type. For example, at least some of the logical inconsistencies can be attributed to the characters' erroneous statements, since none of them has all knowledge about everything. Contradictions of this type are grouped under "Characters". Others are grouped under "Facts", which has subgroups.

For some readers, the consistency of detail is important, as Christopher Tolkien said, and for some finding the remaining inconsistencies is an amusing pastime, as J. R. R. Tolkien said (both quoted above). For others, though, such details are superficial and finding inconsistencies is over-analysis that distracts from values such as plot, character, atmosphere, and style.

==Characters==
====The Eldest====
Both [[Tom Bombadil]] and [[Treebeard]] are referred to as the [[eldest]] being in [[Middle-earth]]. Tom says that about himself,<ref>{{FR|I7}}, "Eldest, that's what I am.... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn."</ref> and [[Elrond]] mentions that the Elves knew Tom as "oldest and fatherless".<ref name="CofE">{{FR|II2}}</ref> However, [[Gandalf]] tells [[Théoden]] that Treebeard is "the oldest of all living things",<ref name="Isengard">{{TT|III8}}</ref> and Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest".<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[Many Partings]]"</ref>
;Explanation:Maybe Tom is not "alive" as Treebeard is.<ref>Tom Shippey, ''The Road to Middle-earth: Revised and Expanded Edition'', p. 107</ref><ref>Gene Hargrove, "Tom Bombadil", in Michael D. C. Drout, ed., ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=by0dzzQ6m8sC&pg=PA671 J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia]'' (2006), Routledge, p. 671</ref> On this subject, Gandalf, [[Saruman]], and [[Sauron]] have ''existed'' far longer than Treebeard, as they are [[Maiar]], but they have not been ''alive'' (embodied physically) as long.

====Giving up a Ring of Power====
Gandalf says, "'<nowiki/>''A [[Rings of Power|Ring of Power]] looks after itself, [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to some one else's care—and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] alone in history has gone beyond playing, and really done it.'''"<ref name="Shadow">{{FR|I2}}</ref> However, [[Narya|Gandalf's own ring]] was given to him freely by [[Círdan]].<ref name="AppThird">{{App|TA}}</ref> Also, the dwarves of [[Durin's Folk]] who held their Ring typically "surrendered" it when near death, and in particular [[Thrór]] gave it to his son [[Thráin II]],<ref name="AppADurin" /> as Gandalf says at the [[Council of Elrond]].<ref name="CofE" />
;Explanation:Perhaps Gandalf meant only the Rings that [[Sauron]] had had a hand in making, which might be the only ones that "grip." Gandalf's ring is one of the [[Three Rings|Three]], which Sauron never touched. Durin's Folk believed that they had received their Ring directly from the [[Gwaith-i-Mírdain|Elven-Smiths]], though Sauron did help to make it. Further, it is noted in the [[The Lord of the Rings Appendices|Appendices]] that the Rings could influence Dwarves to a much lesser extent than [[Men]], specifically "the only power over [Dwarves] that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things."<ref>{{App|A3}}</ref> Gandalf may have been speaking implicitly only of Men, considering the context of the conversation and his audience.{{Fact}}

====Sam's spying====
[[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] tells Frodo that, as a result of [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam's]] eavesdropping, he and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] "know most of what Gandalf has told you about the [[One Ring|Ring]]."<ref name="ACU">{{FR|I5}}</ref> Most of what Gandalf told Frodo was in one long conversation, at the end of which Gandalf caught Sam.<ref name="Shadow" /> This contradicts Merry's statement that after Sam was caught, he "seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up."<ref name="ACU" />
;Explanation:Maybe Sam's information was what he learned before he was caught,{{Fact}} though that's not what Merry says.

====A choice of dangers====
[[Aragorn]] tells the hobbits, as they prepare to leave [[Bree]], "''After [[Weathertop]] our journey will become more difficult, and we shall have to choose between various dangers''."<ref name="Strider" /> The ridges they have to climb after Weathertop may be more difficult than the [[Midgewater Marshes]], but they encounter no dangers on the route Aragorn chooses, and he does not mention any choices of dangers or even warn the hobbits of any dangers, except the chance that the [[Nazgûl]] will find them as they cross the [[Last Bridge]].<ref name="Flight">{{FR|I12}}</ref>
;Explanation:Not all risked dangers actually materialize, and Aragorn does cite two other possible courses that have their own possible hazards. One is going north through the [[Ettenmoors|Ettendales]] instead of crossing the [[Ford of Bruinen]], but in addition to the danger of [[trolls]], that route would take too long and the Company could run out of food. The other is finding the Ford without following the Road, but Aragorn regards that as impossible.<ref>{{FR|I12}}, "'We cannot hope to find a path through these hills. Whatever danger may beset it, the Road is our only way to the Ford.'"</ref> In his estimation, the Road was clearly the path most likely to get the Company to Rivendell safely, regardless of whether the alternatives were truly impossible or merely less practical than the best alternative.

====Aragorn's knowledge====
Aragorn tells the hobbits in Bree, "I know all the lands between [[the Shire]] and the [[Misty Mountains]], for I have wandered over them for many years."<ref name="Strider" /> But later, speaking of the Ettendales, he says, "That is troll-country, and little known to me," and "I do not know the way".<ref name="Flight" /> The Ettendales or Ettenmoors are on a line between the Shire and the northern part of the Misty Mountains.{{Fact}}
;Explanation:If we take Aragorn's line "wandered over them" literally, we can accept that Aragorn has also wandered over the Ettendales. Of course that does not necessarily means that Aragorn should know ''everything'' about those lands, or even know ''all'' ways (e.g., to Rivendell) through them. He says that he knows those lands "little."

====Building Barad-dûr====
[[Elrond]] says at his Council that the foundations of [[Barad-dûr]] were made with the [[The One Ring|One Ring]],<ref>{{FR|II2}}, "The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure.</ref> which is consistent with its destruction when the Ring is destroyed. However, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began building Barad-dûr in about [[Second Age 1000|S.A. 1000]] and forged the Ring in about [[Second Age 1600|S.A. 1600]].<ref>https://www.quora.com/What-inconsistencies-if-any-appear-in-the-Hobbit-Lord-of-the-Rings-and-the-Silmarillion</ref>
;Explanation:Maybe Sauron ordered his Orcs to begin gathering materials and preparing the land for construction in S.A. 1000, and only commenced building once he forged the Ring in S.A. 1600.{{Fact}} Six hundred years is a long time, but the Barad-dûr was a monumental structure that would have required an unprecedented amount of stone, iron, and other materials to erect. Or maybe the foundations were built before the making of the Ring, but lacking a last piece, or some power of will that the Ring provided.{{Fact}}

====Heirlooms of Arnor====
At the Council of Elrond, Aragorn says of [[Narsil]], the Sword of [[Elendil]], "It has been treasured by his heirs when '''all other heirlooms were lost'''" (emphasis added).<ref name="CofE" /> However, Appendix A lists other heirlooms that were kept with it: "...''there [at [[Rivendell]]] also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the [[Ring of Barahir]], the shards of Narsil, the [[star of Elendil]], and the [[sceptre of Annúminas]]''."<ref name="AppEriador">{{App|Eriador}}</ref>
;Explanation:The Ring of Barahir was briefly lost to the [[Dúnedain]] when Arvedui bartered it to the Lossoth for supplies. No loss of the other heirlooms appears.

====Possession of the [[Nine Rings]]====
In ''[[The Council of Elrond]]'' [[Gandalf]] says that the [[Nazgûl]] kept their Rings by saying "The Nine the Nazgûl keep".<ref name="CofE" /> However in most other references, it is mentioned that Sauron had taken them.<ref>{{FR|I2}}, "the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed."</ref><ref>{{FR|II7}}, "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."</ref> Furthermore, Frodo does not see any Rings on them on [[Weathertop]], and it is believed that if they did wear the Rings, they would have been fully [[Unseen|invisible]] (including their cloaks).<ref>http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvRiders</ref>
The line in the Council of Elrond represents Tolkien's earlier intention that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.{{fact}}
;Explanation:The phrase can be also interpreted as "The Nine ''keep'' the Nazgûl ''in Sauron’s thrall''," though this would be an awkward construction. The doings of Sauron and the Nazgûl were mostly unknown to the Council, so it is likely that Gandalf did not actually know the physical disposition of the Rings and was merely alluding to the indelible association between the Nine Rings and the Nine Nazgûl. Moreover, as far as the Council was concerned, the situation was equivalent whether the Nine Rings were on Sauron's fingers or on those of his slaves, so the lack of precision was immaterial.

====Feeling the Mithril-coat====
The [[Mithril-coat]] that Bilbo gives Frodo is "almost as supple as linen". However, when Bilbo slaps Frodo on the back after giving him the coat, he says, "''Ow!... You are too hard now to slap''!"<ref name="Ring">{{FR|II3}}</ref>
;Explanation:Perhaps Bilbo is joking. Or perhaps the mail tenses in response to an impact, similar to non-Newtonian fluids solidifying under stress. It's fairly common in Middle-earth for works of master craftsmanship to have some "magical" attributes, and given the cost of mithril, it's a safe bet that only the best smiths in Erebor would have undertaken such a project. Of all of the magical abilities one might want for a coat of nigh-unbreakable chain mail, the ability to turn solid when struck while being as soft as cloth at all other times would be high on the list.

====Galadriel's mind-reading====
[[Galadriel]] tells Frodo and Sam that she knows Sauron's thoughts that concern the Elves.<ref name="Mirror">{{FR|II7}}</ref> It seems strange that they do not ask her whether she has any information they might find useful and she does not offer them any. Also, she does not seem to have known that [[Saruman]] had switched to Sauron's side nineteen years earlier, though it must have been in Sauron's thoughts and the defection of a member of the [[White Council]] seems to concern the Elves. At least, she did not warn Gandalf in the messages he got from [[Lothlórien|Lóthlorien]] after reading the [[Scroll of Isildur]], the year before he trustingly entered [[Orthanc]].<ref name="CofE" /> (Also, when Aragorn was serving in Gondor under the name [[Thorongil]], he "often warned [[Ecthelion II|Ecthelion]] not to put trust in Saruman".<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref> It is strange that he knew not to trust Saruman but Gandalf did not.)
;Explanation:Conceivably Galadriel gained the ability to read Sauron's mind sometime after the messages went to Gandalf.

====Galadriel's role====
Galadriel tells [[Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship]], "I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, or in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be."<ref>{{FR|I6}}</ref> Later she tells Frodo, "I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor."<ref name="Mirror" /> However, the rhyme she sends Aragorn advises a specific course: the [[Grey Company]] should come out of [[Rivendell]], and Aragorn should take the [[Paths of the Dead]].<ref>{{TT|III5}}</ref> Likewise [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]] conclude that Galadriel sent the message to the Grey Company telling them to join Aragorn in [[Rohan]]; this seems to be "contriving" and "choosing between one course and another". Incidentally, it is odd that the Grey Company got this message without knowing who it was from.<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Passing of the Grey Company]]"</ref>
;Explanation:One could imagine that someone else ([[Celeborn]]?) made the decisions and Galadriel only sent the messages; Legolas and Gimli may have erred in thinking she was the source. Alternatively, it is conceivable that Galadriel's words to the Fellowship were calculated to have a desired impact, even though at face value they seemed to be of no use.

====The origin of orcs====
Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that [[Morgoth]] made trolls and orcs.<ref>{{TT|III4}}. "But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves."</ref> However, Frodo says to Sam, "''The [[Shadow]] that bred them [Orcs] can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined and twisted them''."<ref>{{RK|VI1}}</ref>
;Explanation:Tolkien went through several attempts to explain [[Orcs/Origin|the origin of orcs]] and never stated a definitive answer. However, when he addressed this point in "[[Letter 153]]", he described Treebeard as "not one of the Wise", and he quoted and endorsed Frodo's line above.

====Tales of hobbits====
Pippin tells [[Théoden]], "I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits."<ref name="Isengard" /> But hobbits live in [[Bree]], Tom Bombadil knows many stories about hobbits, one would think the [[Rangers of the North|Rangers]] (who guard [[The Shire]] and Bree) and the Elves of Rivendell (where Bilbo has been living) would know some, and the Elves of Lórien have at least heard of hobbits.<ref>{{FR|II6}}, "We had not heard of—hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year...."</ref>
;Explanation:Pippin has just woken up from a nap, after a lunch that included wine, and is talking to a king for the first time in his life; he may not be thinking clearly. Alternatively, Pippin is the most glib and smooth or courtly of the hobbits in the Fellowship, and he may have exaggerated to flatter the king, even without realizing he was doing it.

====The peril of deep arts====
In connection with the ''[[Palantíri|palantír]]'' of Orthanc, Gandalf observes to Pippin, "''Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves.''"<ref name="Palantir">{{TT|III11}}</ref> However, never in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' or ''The Lord of the Rings'' does he warn [[Thorin]] or the hobbits against using elvish swords, which glow in the presence of orcs, or [[Barrow-blades|daggers from the barrow]], which are especially effective against Ringwraiths. He returns the [[Phial of Galadriel]] to Frodo and [[Gifts of Galadriel|Galadriel's box of earth]] to Sam without any warnings. Also, there is no apparent danger in characters' using other products of elven arts ([[elven cloak]]s, a ''[[hithlain]]'' rope, ''[[lembas]]'').
;Explanation:Maybe the ''palantíri'' are "devices" in a sense in which the other things named are not.

:Furthermore, it's possible that Gandalf was only attempting to discourage Pippin's curiosity, worrying that it could lead to another dangerous situation like that with the ''palantír''.

====The eyes in Orthanc====
When Aragorn tells Gimli and Legolas that he's confronted Sauron in the ''palantír'', he says that Sauron had not previously known Aragorn was alive. In explanation, he adds, "''The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Théoden''".<ref>{{RK|V2}}</ref> But [[Gríma|Wormtongue]] knew that Aragorn claimed to be Isildur's heir, as Gandalf points out to Pippin.<ref name="Palantir" /> Thus whether Wormtongue recognized Aragorn from Orthanc does not matter to Sauron's knowledge of Aragorn's existence. (What Aragorn should have deduced was that either Wormtongue never told Saruman about him, or Saruman did not reveal the knowledge, whether to Sauron through the ''palantír'' or to the Nazgûl who came to demand Saruman's supposed captive hobbit. The latter is what Gandalf tells Pippin he fears.)

====[[Mouth of Sauron]] and "Sauron the Great"====
[[Aragorn]] mentions that the name "[[Sauron]]" (meaning "Abominable") is the name used by his enemies, and Sauron does not permit it to be pronounced.<ref>{{TT|III1}}</ref> Therefore it would be problematic, if not logically impossible, for the Ringwraiths to think "Sauron would deal with them later" as they rode away from [[Crickhollow]],<ref>{{FR|I11}}</ref> for the messenger to [[Dáin Ironfoot|Dáin]] to refer to his master as "the Lord Sauron the Great," as Aragorn had heard at the Council of Elrond,<ref name="CofE" /> and for a servant of Sauron to say, "''I am the [[Mouth of Sauron]].''"<ref>{{RK|V10}}</ref>
;Explanation:It could be that Aragorn was mistaken, perhaps thinking of the time before Sauron had declared himself. Another possibility is that the "Mouth" used a different name or title, perhaps in the Black Speech, and Frodo or the translator Tolkien "translated" it as Sauron to clarify it for readers. As the Ringwraiths' thoughts would not have been known to anyone else, the passage presenting those thoughts must have been invented by Frodo or the translator Tolkien, who would be responsible for the choice of "Sauron" there. A similar possibility is that despite Aragorn's blanket statement, Sauron sometimes allowed his servants to use the name in communicating with others who used it. As many of his enemies only knew his "true" name as Sauron, it would also allow him to keep his true names and aliases hidden from them, as well as allow them to immediately recognize whom his servants were referring to.

====Hewing Orcs====
At [[Helm's Deep]], [[Gimli]] tells Éomer that he had "hewn naught but wood since I left Moria," forgetting that he [[Breaking of the Fellowship|fought Orcs]] not long before.
;Explanation:This discrepancy was noted by [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', where they explained that they left it unchanged in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]] because correcting it was impossible, as it would require rewriting the dialogue.<ref name="comp" />{{rp|p. xliv}} [[Amon Hen]] was a week before the Battle of the Hornburg; even for a stout Dwarven warrior, lamenting not killing an Orc for that short period would make him look too bloodthirsty. However, it is possible to interpret Gimli as being scornful towards his latest opponents, deliberately meaning that they were no better than "wood."

==Facts==
====[[Doors of Durin]]====
''[[Moria]]'' translates as "Black Pit" or "Black Chasm" in [[Sindarin]], and the name was said to have been given by the [[Elves]] "without love,"<ref name="Translation">{{App|Translation}}, p. 1137, "Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar... were not dwellers in such places of choice"</ref> possibly indicating that it was a derogatory description. Furthermore, ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' states that [[Khazad-dûm]] was "afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria,"<ref>{{S|Sindar}}</ref> suggesting the name was not widely used until after [[Durin's Bane]] took over the city and it was overrun by [[Orcs]]. It is therefore a paradox why that name appears on the [[Doors of Durin]] (''Ennyn Durin Aran Moria''), made in the [[Second Age]], and with the consent of the [[Dwarves]].
;Explanation:There are many possible explanations to this apparent inconsistency.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, pp. 281-2</ref> The name may have been given by the Elves in reference to Moria's inherent darkness from being underground (in contrast with their love for "green earth and the lights of heaven"), and therefore was in use before Moria's fall to the [[Balrog]].<ref name="Translation" /> There is also no clear evidence that the Dwarves found this name to be offensive, and they may have had no objection to its use on the doors. Some "external" explanations suggest that since the translated names [[Durin (disambiguation)|Durin]] and [[Narvi]] are seen in the inscription, ''Moria'' may also be a "translated" name.

====Eagles====
One of the best-known alleged plot holes is why the [[Eagles]] came to carry [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] and [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] back from [[Mount Doom]] but did not help them to fly the [[the One Ring|One Ring]] there, or at least help them at other points in their journey such as the crossing of the [[Misty Mountains]]. It is particularly hard to understand why this idea was not proposed in the [[Council of Elrond]].
;Explanation:This question is discussed in detail in [[Eagles#Flying the Ring to Mount Doom|the article on the Eagles]], which gives several explanations.

:In general the explanations for not flying the Ring to Mount Doom are better than those for the Fellowship's not at least trying to have the Eagles fly them across the Misty Mountains.

====Distances====
The distances of the Dwarves' travel to [[Rivendell]] in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' seem to have different proportions than those in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Tolkien tried to reconcile the ''Hobbit'' description with the scale of the ''LotR'' map but could not find an appropriate solution.<ref>{{HM|RS}} p. 204</ref>

While Frodo and his companions needed 28 days from [[Hobbiton]] to [[Rivendell]] (10.7 miles/day),<ref name="atlas">[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]''</ref> [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] calculated that Bilbo and [[Thorin and Company]] needed 38 days (17.5 miles/day).<ref name="atlas" /> [[Andreas Möhn|Andreas Moehn]] goes further and supposes that Thorin and Co. wanted two weeks from the [[Trollshaws]] till Rivendell (a distance which [[Glorfindel]] covered in two days), resulting in c. 48 days total.<ref name="lalaith">http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref>
;Explanation:The distances and days are not described in the narrative and can be measured only by references such as the moon phases and other fan calculations; therefore there can be a margin of miscalculation.

:In general, perhaps the Dwarves are by nature slower travelers than Men and/or Hobbits. In ''[[The Departure of Boromir]]'' it is seen that [[Gimli]] had a problem keeping pace with [[Aragorn]] and [[Legolas]].

:The errand of bringing the Ring to Rivendell was much more pressing than the Dwarves'. The dragon was not going anywhere. And Frodo and his companions were hunted down by the [[Nazgûl]].

====Beater and Biter====
The swords [[Glamdring]] and its "mate" [[Orcrist]] are said to have belonged to King [[Turgon]] of the [[First Age]]. They never appeared much in battle (Turgon fought only in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]) and they were witnessed only by the Orcs of [[Beleriand]]. However, in the [[Third Age]] the swords are found in a [[Troll]] hoard in [[Eriador]], and the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] recognize them by their names. The Orcs do not seem to react similarly in the sight of Glamdring in ''The Lord of the Rings'', nor do they seem to recognize [[Narsil]]/[[Andúril]], which is much more "recent".
;Explanation:There can be several theories and explanations of how the swords and even their reputations reach [[Eriador]]. However, the narrative of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' does not justify their significance to the extent of being remembered and recognized by the Goblins of the Third Age, even by tradition.

====The elf-king's favorite gems====
The narration of ''The Hobbit'' says the [[Thranduil|elf-king]]'s favorite gems are "white."<ref>{{H|8}}, "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems...."</ref> However, after the [[Battle of Five Armies]], the narration says, "''To the Elven-king he <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Bard]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> sent the emeralds of [[Girion]], such gems as he most loved''..."<ref>{{H|18}}</ref>
;Explanation:The sentence is somewhat ambiguous: "he" could refer to Bard or Girion instead of the elf-king. However, the elf-king's preference in gems, not the others', would be relevant to Bard's choice of what to give him.

====Thráin and Thorin's settling in the [[Blue Mountains]]====
[[File:Stephen Raw - Middle-earth map (1 of 4).png|250px|thumb|A map of north-west Middle-earth]]
After [[Thráin|Thráin II]] and his followers returned to [[Dunland]] following the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] in {{TA|2799}},
{{Blockquote|they removed and wandered in [[Eriador]], until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the [[Ered Luin]] beyond the [[Lune]].<ref name="AppADurin">{{App|Durin}}</ref>}}
From the point of view of Eriador and the Shire, "beyond the Lune" is north of it.

However, the "Tale of Years" ([[Appendix B]]) states,
{{Blockquote|Thráin and his son Thorin wander westwards. They settle in the South of [[Ered Luin]] beyond [[the Shire]] ({{TA|2802|n}})<ref name="AppThird"/>}}
It is difficult to reconcile the descriptions "beyond the Lune" and "in the south of the [[Blue Mountains|Ered Luin]]."

Other mentions of the Dwarves' homes in the Ered Luin are consistent with both possibilities. "Dwarves dwelt in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the [[Gulf of Lune]], where they have mines that are still in use."<ref name="AppEriador" />

"Especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune" implies that a smaller number of Dwarves lived north of the Gulf, as shown in two other quotations. In a parenthetical comment made in "Of Dwarves and Men" in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', Tolkien indicated that beyond the inflow of the [[Little Lune]] was 'Dwarf territory'.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}, p. 313</ref> Likewise in Appendix A: [[Arvedui]], the last king of [[Arthedain]], "hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains".<ref name="AppEriador" />

====Westron and English====
In a few places, Tolkien might be thought to have forgotten that the English, including [[Old English]], in ''The Lord of the Rings'' is supposed to be translated from [[Westron]] and related languages. Some of these are easily explained, and Tolkien explained the similarity between the Sindarin ''[[Baranduin]]'' and the English "Brandywine".<ref>{{App|Translation}} "Brandywine" is somewhat similar in both sound and meaning to the hobbits' Westron nickname for the river, ''Bralda-him'' meaning 'heady ale'.</ref> The most difficult is the comment, "This was ''[[Orthanc]]'', the citadel of [[Saruman]], the name of which had (by design or chance) a twofold meaning; for in the Elvish speech ''orthanc'' signifies Mount Fang, but in the language of the Mark of old ''the Cunning Mind''."<ref name="Isengard" /> However, ''orthanc'' means "cunning" not in [[Rohanese]] but in Old English, which Tolkien used to translate Rohanese.
;Explanation:By a further coincidence, the unattested name for ''Orthanc'' in Rohanese could also be "Orthanc" and mean "cunning mind".

====Chronology====
=====When Bilbo departed=====
In the chapter ''[[Roast Mutton]]'', [[Thorin and Company]] depart from the ''[[Green Dragon]]'' "one fine morning just before May." In the later written and published "[[The Quest of Erebor]]", part of "[[Unfinished Tales]]", the author established that the day of departure was [[27 April]].<ref>{{UT|Quest}}</ref> However, the chapter ''[[Flies and Spiders]]'' refers to what has happened "since they started their journey that May morning long ago."
;Explanation:The fifth month of the [[Shire Calendar]], Thrimidge, falls between 22 April to 21 May. By the human calendar, the journey would have started just before May; but by the hobbit calendar, the journey started during Thrimidge. The second reference to May could have been a "translation error," where "Thrimidge" was translated as "May" regardless of the actual date.

=====[[White Council]] during the [[Watchful Peace]]=====
According to [[Appendix A]], "The Stewards", during the [[Watchful Peace]] "''Sauron withdrew before the power of the [[White Council]] and the Ringwraiths remained hidden in Morgul Vale''". However the Watchful Peace ended in {{TA|2460}}, three years before the White Council was formed. Thus according to [[Robert Foster]], the reference to the Council is "incorrect".<ref>[[Robert Foster]] (2001) ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth|The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth: From The Hobbit through The Lord of the Rings and Beyond]]''. Random House Digital, [http://books.google.com/books?id=GNGJvGi849UC&pg=PA538 p. 538].</ref>
;Explanation:Foster suggests that the reference to the "White Council" is rather to "the [[Wise]]" in general.

=====Moon phases=====
Tolkien was particularly careful about the phases of the [[Moon]] in the ''The Lord of the Rings''. Yet some errors did elude him. See for example [[13 January|January 13]], [[16 January|January 16]], [[22 February|February 22]], [[22 September|September 22]].

In general, it is possible that Tolkien consulted a modern almanac to model the moon phases, and also possible that he confused the meanings of "New Moon": the astronomical (the moment when the moon is darkest) and the colloquial (appearance of the new crescent moon).<ref>http://shire-reckoning.com/moon.html</ref>

Another error appears in ''The Hobbit'': [[Bard|Bard I]] killed [[Smaug]] "at the rising of the moon"<ref>{{H|15}}</ref> when "the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his [Smaug's] great wings... the waxing moon rose higher and higher". Also the [[thrush]] tells Bard, "''Wait! Wait!... The Moon is rising.''" <ref>{{H|14}}</ref> However, according to astronomy a waxing moon rises only in the morning, after the sun. We can be certain the moon was waxing because this occurs the day after [[Durin's Day]], which is the first day in the last month of autumn that the new moon is visible together with the sun.<ref name="lalaith" />
;Explanation:One might imagine that Bard needed to wait for the moon to fall below a cloudbank and that the tradition is corrupt.<ref name="lalaith" />

=====[[Shadow over Hollin]]=====
While the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] traverses [[Hollin]], they see and feel a flying shadow that causes the stars to fade.<ref name="Ring" /> Since no other such phenomena occur, when the [[Fell Beast]]s are introduced, the reader makes such a connection. However [[Grishnakh]] later tells [[Uglúk]] that Sauron was not yet permitting the Nazgûl to traverse to the west side of the [[Anduin]],<ref>{{TT|III3}}</ref> and still later Gandalf says, "''The Nazgûl have crossed the River!''" as if it were something new.<ref name="Palantir" />
;Explanation:Possibly a Nazgûl got lost or disobeyed orders and prematurely crossed the [[Anduin]]. Or possibly the fellowship noticed something unexplained and unrelated to the Fell Beasts. Perhaps it was some feeling of foreboding as they would eventually have to go to Moria. It could also be a sort of metaphor of Sauron observing them, as often throughout the books Sauron's gaze is compared to a heavy shadow bearing down on what it sees. Another possibility is that it was a flock of Saruman's ''[[crebain]]'' (crows) flying overhead. Finally, it may be an intentionally vague event intended to create a feeling of unknown menace.

=====Nights in Lórien=====
The surviving members of the Company spend their first night in [[Lothlórien|Lórien]] in a "flet" in a tree. On their second night, "they rested and slept without fear on the ground".<ref>{{FR|II6}}</ref> On their third night, they sleep on the ground again, in a pavilion in [[Caras Galadon]]. "For a little while the travellers talked of their night before in the tree-tops, and of their day's journey..." And Aragorn says, "''But tonight I shall sleep without fear for the first time since I left Rivendell.''"<ref name="Mirror" /> The night in the tree-tops was not the night before, and Aragorn did sleep without fear on the previous night, so the second night appears to be forgotten.
;Explanation:In Lórien at least some members of the Fellowship lose track of the flow of time. Shortly after Aragorn's remark, the narration says, "They remained some days in Lothlórien, so far as they could tell or remember." Also, after leaving Lórien, Sam feels sure they had not spent a whole month there, despite the evidence of the phase of the moon, and Frodo thinks while in Lórien they were in the past and mentions that he does not remember seeing the moon while there. However, Legolas assures him that only their perception of time was changed, and Aragorn points out that the time had indeed been a month.<ref>{{FR|II9}}</ref> Aragorn's forgetting his night without fear could be an effect of this changed sense of time. The phrase in the narration "the night before in the tree-tops" is harder to explain within the story, as the narration does include the intervening night, but the inconspicuous contradiction might be deliberate foreshadowing of what the Company will experience.

=====Éomer and Éowyn after Aragorn's coronation=====
In the chapter ''[[The Steward and the King]]'', it is stated: "So the glad days passed; and on the eighth day of May the Riders of Rohan made ready, and rode off by the North-way, and with them went the sons of Elrond. All the road was lined with people to do them honour and praise them, from the Gate of the City to the walls of the [[Pelennor Fields|Pelennor]]."<ref name="SaK">{{RK|VI5}}</ref> However, in ''[[Appendix B]]'' of some editions of the novel<ref>http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-1958.html</ref> there is the entry: "May 8 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) Éomer and Éowyn depart '''from''' Rohan with the sons of Elrond".<ref name="AppB4">{{App|Chief}}</ref> (Emphasis added.)

=====The sapling's discovery=====
In the text of ''[[The Return of the King]]'' it is stated: "And Aragorn planted the new tree in the court by the fountain, and swiftly and gladly it began to grow; and when the month of June entered in it was laden with blossom".<ref name="SaK" /> The wording of this sentence suggests that Aragorn planted the sapling ''before'' June began. However, in ''Appendix B'' there is the entry: "June 25 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) King Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree",<ref name="AppB4" /> in which case it could not have blossomed until late in the month.

=====Walda's death=====
King [[Walda]]'s death date is recorded in [[Appendix A]] as [[Third Age 2851]] but in [[Appendix B]] as [[Third Age 2861]].

==Later corrected==
Several errors were simply remnants of Tolkien's earlier writings, which later escaped his attention when revising the book. Some of them have been corrected in the later editions of ''The Lord of the Rings'' and ''The Hobbit''.

====Bridle and headstall====
The first edition referred to the "bridle and bit" of [[Glorfindel]]'s horse, [[Asfaloth]].<ref name="Flight" /> [[Rhona Beare]] wrote to Tolkien asking how that was possible when elves do not use bridles. Tolkien replied in [[Letter 211]] that he had written "bridle and bit" before thinking about how elves ride, and he changed it to "headstall" in the second edition. However, a later mention of Asfaloth's bridle remained in the chapter.<ref>"His hand left the bridle and gripped the hilt of his sword, and with a red flash he drew it."</ref>

====Durin's Day====
The original text of ''The Hobbit'' described [[Durin's Day]] as occurring on "the first day of the last moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|3}}</ref> the "first moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|4}}</ref> and "the last week of autumn".<ref>{{H|11}}</ref> In the [[1995]] edition the mention in Chapter 4 was revised to place the day at the end of autumn, in line with the other two mentions.<ref>Chester N. Scoville, "''The Hobbit''" in ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment]]'' (2007), Michael D.C. Drout, ed., Taylor and Francis, p. 279</ref>

====Bandobras' parentage====
The "[[Prologue Concerning Hobbits, and other matters|Prologue]]" mentions that [[Bandobras Took]] was the son (not grandson) of [[Isengrim Took II]]. This has been corrected in the 50th Anniversary edition.

====Sam's birth====
In the second edition of ''The Lord of the Rings'', [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s year of birth was added to ''[[Appendix B|The Tale of Years]]'' as [[Third Age 2963]]. This contradicts both a later entry in ''The Tale of Years'' and the [[Appendix C]] given as [[Third Age 2980]].<ref>[[Wayne G. Hammond]], [[Christina Scull]], ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', page 716</ref>

====Gandalf's letter====
The letter Gandalf leaves for Frodo at the ''[[Prancing Pony]]'' is dated "[[Midyear's Day]], Shire Year, 1418."<ref name="Strider">{{FR|I10}}</ref> However, in editions published during Tolkien's lifetime, Appendix B says that on June 29, "Gandalf meets [[Radagast]]." Then Gandalf says he left [[Bree]] at dawn of the following day,<ref name="CofE" /> which would be June 30, two days before Midyear's Day (as 1 [[Lithe]] comes between).
;Explanation:Perhaps Gandalf, who was in a hurry and had been traveling for days, made the error. However, the entry in Appendix B for June 29, 3018, has been deleted from the 50th Anniversary Edition.

====Crossing Rohan inconspicuously====
As they ride away from [[Isengard]], Gandalf tells Merry that the [[Eye of Sauron|Lidless Eye]] will be looking toward Rohan, so "''He [Théoden] will ride from there [Helm's Deep] to Dunharrow by paths among the hills. From now on no more than two or three together are to go openly over the land, by day or night, when it can be avoided."''<ref name="Palantir" /> However, later that night, after Pippin looks into the ''palantír'' and Gandalf says they must move from the spot, Théoden says he will go in a group of twelve, and Gandalf agrees.<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "'I will keep Éomer and ten Riders,' said the king. 'They shall ride with me at early day. The rest may go with Aragorn and ride as soon as they have a mind.' 'As you will,' said Gandalf."</ref> Then when the trip to Helm's Deep starts, the number has increased to twenty-six, and Aragorn goes with Théoden.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "Soon all were ready to depart: twenty-four horses, with Gimli behind Legolas, and Merry in front of Aragorn."</ref> The trip from Helm's Deep to Dunharrow has a group of five hundred.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "A thousand spears had indeed already ridden away at night, but still there would be some five hundred more to go with the king."</ref> They do ride through the hills, as Gandalf had said. "Most of the time" they're in a group bigger than three.<ref>{{RK|V3}}, "Sometimes where the way was broader he [Merry] had ridden at the king's side, not noticing that many of the Riders smiled to see the two together: the hobbit on his little shaggy grey pony, and the Lord of Rohan on his great white horse. [...] But most of the time, especially on the last day, Merry had ridden by himself just behind the king, saying nothing, and trying to understand the slow sonorous speech of Rohan that he heard the men behind him using."</ref>
;Explanation:The Fiftieth Anniversary Edition contains a clarifying addition to contextualize the order: "He will ride from there '''with many men''' to Dunharrow by paths among the hills." (Emphasis added.) This may suggest that "by paths among the hills" is in opposition to "openly over the land". So long as the large groups traveled by the hills, they were not conspicuous to the Lidless Eye.

====Knowledge of the ''Palantíri''====
After Gandalf learns that the crystal ball he has recovered is the ''[[palantír]]'' of [[Orthanc]], he tells [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] the [[White Council]] did not know any of the ''palantíri'' (presumably those of [[Gondor]]) survived disaster in Gondor (presumably the [[Kin-strife]]).<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "It was not known to us that any of the ''palantíri'' had escaped the ruin of Gondor."</ref> However, after [[Denethor]] reveals his ''palantír'', Gandalf says in earlier editions, "''Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long have I known that here in the White Tower, as at Orthanc, one of the Seven Stones was preserved.''"<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Pyre of Denethor]]"</ref>
;Explanation:Gandalf could have learned about the two ''palantíri'' by himself, after the last time the White Council met (66 years earlier), or could have been concealing his knowledge so as to keep secret his source for this information.

:However, in the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition, the sentence was revised to read, "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, '''long ago I guessed''' that here in the White Tower, one at least of the Seven Seeing Stones was preserved." (Emphasis added.)

====Addition of the Westmarch (and Buckland) to the Shire====
In early editions, the "Prologue" to ''The Lord of the Rings'' contained the sentence "Outside the [[Farthing]]s were the East and West Marches: the [[Buckland]] and the [[Westmarch]] added to the Shire in {{SR|1462}}."<ref name="OldPrologue" /> That had two inconsistencies with other parts of the text. First, the "Tale of Years" dates the event to {{SR|1452}}.<ref name="AppLater">{{App|Later}}</ref> Second, various points indicate that Buckland was part of the Shire. The clearest may be Merry's comment to the other hobbits, when they have gone through the tunnel under the [[High Hay]] from Buckland into the [[Old Forest]], that they have left the Shire.<ref>{{FR|I6}}, "'There!' said Merry. 'You have left the Shire, and are now outside, and on the edge of the Old Forest.'"</ref>
;Explanation:In the 50th Anniversary Edition, the sentence was changed to "Outside the Farthings were the East and West Marches: the Buckland; and the Westmarch added to the Shire in S.R. 1452." In addition to the correction of the date, the semicolon after "Buckland" indicates that Buckland was not added to the Shire after the War of the Ring, making the sentence consistent with the idea that it was already part of the Shire.<ref name="NewPrologue">{{FR|Prologue|50}}</ref>

====Mirror of Galadriel====
In editions prior to the 50th Anniversary Edition, the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]] mentions that Frodo and Sam looked into the [[Mirror of Galadriel]] on [[14 February]]. However it is clear from the narrative that this occurred ''one day'' before departure on [[16 February]], not ''two''. [[Wayne G. Hammond|Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull|Scull]] decided to fix the Tale of Years so that the Mirror of Galadriel sequence happened on 15 February.

==From the publishers==
====Nameless Pass as an alternative name for Cirith Ungol in the index====
The index entry for Cirith Ungol has Nameless Pass as an (alternative) name in brackets, and the index entry for Nameless Pass has "see Cirith Ungol" after it in the following e-book editions:
*The Lord of the Rings (i.e. The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King together in one e-book) published by HarperCollinsPublishers 2005 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN 978-0-007-32259-6
*The Return of the King, J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Part 3 published by HarperCollins Publishers 2008 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN 978-0-007-32255-8
The description of the landscape below seen by Frodo from the winding stairs in the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' and the description of the landscape below seen by Sam from the pass of Cirith Ungol contradict that the Nameless Pass was an alternative name for the Pass of Cirith Ungol. In the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' Frodo from above on the winding stair sees the wraith-road running from the dead city in a great revine at the head of the Morgul Valley to the "Nameless Pass" that is also referred to as the "main pass."

In the chapter ''The Tower of Cirith Ungol'' Sam sees a broad road running from the Tower of Cirith Ungol down to join the road that came over the Morgul Pass. "The dead city" seems to be an alternative name for Minas Morgul. "Wraith-road" seems to be an alternative name for the Morgul-road.

Frodo can see the road that runs from Minas Morgul in the great ravine at the head of the Morgul Vale to the Nameless Pass from his observation point high up on the winding stair that leads to the tunnel and then on to the pass of Cirith Ungol. Since the road leads from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and winds down to join the road that came from the Morgul Pass, then Cirith Ungol must be higher up on the left side of the Nameless Pass, and the Nameless Pass cannot be the same as the Pass of Cirith Ungol. Since no other pass is mentioned in the landscape, the "Nameless Pass" must be the Morgul Pass (also referred to as the "main pass"), and Cirith Ungol must be the pass that is also referred to as the "high pass."

====HarperCollins 2005 EPub Edition of March 2009====
The entry that King Argeleb I was slain in battle in appendix B The Third Age is erroneously dated with the year 1977 instead of the year 1356 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. As a consequence the following entries up to and including the entry that many Periannath migrate from Bree erroneously have the date from the entry that immediately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Corsairs ravage Pelargir and slay King Minardil is erroneously dated with the year 1601 instead of the year 1634 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The year 1601 is the year for the entry that is two entries above this entry.

The entry that the Great Plague devastates Gondor is erroneously dated with the year 1634 instead of the year 1636 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The following entries up to and including the entry that Frumgar leads the Éothéod into the North also erroneously have the date from the entry that immeditately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Nazgûl issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2002 instead of the year 2000 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry for the fall of Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2043 instead of the year 2002 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that King Eärnur becomes King of Gondor and is challenged by the Witch-king is erroneously dated with the year 2000 instead of the year 2043 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

{{References}}
[[Category:Debates]]

Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

2025-12-19T04:21:49Z

Spearwielder: tweaks, got rid of n't

{{cleanup}}

The '''inconsistencies''' are various vague or contradictory statements that can be found throughout Tolkien's fiction.

Although [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] paid a great deal of attention to detail in his [[Secondary world]] to preserve a realistic consistency,<ref>{{L|236}}</ref> in this vast creation, unavoidably, some more or less degrees of inconsistencies had slipped in. Most can be revealed after more than one reading of the books and through study. Regarding the inconsistencies, [[Christopher Tolkien]] has noted that:
{{blockquote|...the credibility that my father was so anxious to maintain. Of course if he had noticed this inconsistency himself or had it pointed out to him he would have altered it without a second thought.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp>{{HM|RC}}</ref>{{rp|p. xliv}}}}
He also noted that:
{{blockquote|However much my father desired to achieve consistency at every level of his work, from capital letters to the dates of dynasties, he was bound to fail. [...] His life was a perpetual battle against time (& tiredness) [...] But he 'niggled' on a grand and noble conception, & indeed its coherence in fine detail is a part of its power.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp/>{{rp|p. xliii}}}}

J.R.R. Tolkien's comment, late in life, was quoted by Hammond and Scull:
{{blockquote|Personally I have ceased to bother about these minor 'discrepancies', since if the genealogies and calendars etc. lack verisimilitude it is in their general excessive accuracy: as compared with real annals or genealogies! Anyway the slips are few, have mostly been removed, and the discovery of what remain seems an amusing pastime!|Letter to [[Joy Hill]], October 30, 1967, quoted in the "Note on the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]]."}}

Hammond and Scull added, "In fact Tolkien had not 'ceased to bother', and 'slips' were dealt with as opportunities arose."<ref>''The Lord of the Rings'', [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]], "Note on the 50th Anniversary Edition"</ref>

Fans of Tolkien usually accept that in any work there are usually plot holes. In a larger, far more detailed and realistic book we expect fewer (if any) plot holes, when in reality there is a far greater chance because of its complexity.{{Fact}}

The [[legendarium]] supposedly consists of translations and adaptations by a "translator", the narrator of the Prologue and Appendices of ''The Lord of the Rings,'' from "ancient sources" such as the [[Red Book]].<ref name="OldPrologue">{{FR|Prologue}}</ref><ref>{{App|F2}}</ref> Inconsistencies can be blamed on that "translator". For instance, he mentions in Appendix D that he might have made many errors on the calendar while translating the ancient sources, a comment Tolkien wrote as a fail-safe for any error he might have made. Likewise inconsistencies can be blamed on the sources. For instance, he "translator" mentions in Appendix F ("Of the Elves") that Frodo had erred in thinking the dialect of Sindarin spoken by the elves of Lórien was Silvan Elvish.<ref>{{FR|II6}}. A footnote directs the reader to the correction in the appendix.</ref>

Such explanations attributing the inconsistencies to the "translator Tolkien" or the "original sources" are easy and unenlightening. Therefore many fans prefer to explain them with some internal explanation. Most of the explanations below are of this type. For example, at least some of the logical inconsistencies can be attributed to the characters' erroneous statements, since none of them has all knowledge about everything. Contradictions of this type are grouped under "Characters". Others are grouped under "Facts", which has subgroups.

For some readers, the consistency of detail is important, as Christopher Tolkien said, and for some finding the remaining inconsistencies is an amusing pastime, as J. R. R. Tolkien said (both quoted above). For others, though, such details are superficial and finding inconsistencies is over-analysis that distracts from values such as plot, character, atmosphere, and style.

==Characters==
====The Eldest====
Both [[Tom Bombadil]] and [[Treebeard]] are referred to as the [[eldest]] being in [[Middle-earth]]. Tom says that about himself,<ref>{{FR|I7}}, "Eldest, that's what I am.... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn."</ref> and [[Elrond]] mentions that the Elves knew Tom as "oldest and fatherless".<ref name="CofE">{{FR|II2}}</ref> However, [[Gandalf]] tells [[Théoden]] that Treebeard is "the oldest of all living things",<ref name="Isengard">{{TT|III8}}</ref> and Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest".<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[Many Partings]]"</ref>
;Explanation:Maybe Tom is not "alive" as Treebeard is.<ref>Tom Shippey, ''The Road to Middle-earth: Revised and Expanded Edition'', p. 107</ref><ref>Gene Hargrove, "Tom Bombadil", in Michael D. C. Drout, ed., ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=by0dzzQ6m8sC&pg=PA671 J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia]'' (2006), Routledge, p. 671</ref> On this subject, Gandalf, [[Saruman]], and [[Sauron]] have ''existed'' far longer than Treebeard, as they are [[Maiar]], but they have not been ''alive'' (embodied physically) as long.

====Giving up a Ring of Power====
Gandalf says, "'<nowiki/>''A [[Rings of Power|Ring of Power]] looks after itself, [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to some one else's care—and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] alone in history has gone beyond playing, and really done it.'''"<ref name="Shadow">{{FR|I2}}</ref> However, [[Narya|Gandalf's own ring]] was given to him freely by [[Círdan]].<ref name="AppThird">{{App|TA}}</ref> Also, the dwarves of [[Durin's Folk]] who held their Ring typically "surrendered" it when near death, and in particular [[Thrór]] gave it to his son [[Thráin II]],<ref name="AppADurin" /> as Gandalf says at the [[Council of Elrond]].<ref name="CofE" />
;Explanation:Perhaps Gandalf meant only the Rings that [[Sauron]] had had a hand in making, which might be the only ones that "grip." Gandalf's ring is one of the [[Three Rings|Three]], which Sauron never touched. Durin's Folk believed that they had received their Ring directly from the [[Gwaith-i-Mírdain|Elven-Smiths]], though Sauron did help to make it. Further, it is noted in the [[The Lord of the Rings Appendices|Appendices]] that the Rings could influence Dwarves to a much lesser extent than [[Men]], specifically "the only power over [Dwarves] that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things."<ref>{{App|A3}}</ref> Gandalf may have been speaking implicitly only of Men, considering the context of the conversation and his audience.{{Fact}}

====Sam's spying====
[[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] tells Frodo that, as a result of [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam's]] eavesdropping, he and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] "know most of what Gandalf has told you about the [[One Ring|Ring]]."<ref name="ACU">{{FR|I5}}</ref> Most of what Gandalf told Frodo was in one long conversation, at the end of which Gandalf caught Sam.<ref name="Shadow" /> This contradicts Merry's statement that after Sam was caught, he "seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up."<ref name="ACU" />
;Explanation:Maybe Sam's information was what he learned before he was caught,{{Fact}} though that's not what Merry says.

====A choice of dangers====
[[Aragorn]] tells the hobbits, as they prepare to leave [[Bree]], "''After [[Weathertop]] our journey will become more difficult, and we shall have to choose between various dangers''."<ref name="Strider" /> The ridges they have to climb after Weathertop may be more difficult than the [[Midgewater Marshes]], but they encounter no dangers on the route Aragorn chooses, and he does not mention any choices of dangers or even warn the hobbits of any dangers, except the chance that the [[Nazgûl]] will find them as they cross the [[Last Bridge]].<ref name="Flight">{{FR|I12}}</ref>
;Explanation:Not all risked dangers actually materialize, and Aragorn does cite two other possible courses that have their own possible hazards. One is going north through the [[Ettenmoors|Ettendales]] instead of crossing the [[Ford of Bruinen]], but in addition to the danger of [[trolls]], that route would take too long and the Company could run out of food. The other is finding the Ford without following the Road, but Aragorn regards that as impossible.<ref>{{FR|I12}}, "'We cannot hope to find a path through these hills. Whatever danger may beset it, the Road is our only way to the Ford.'"</ref> In his estimation, the Road was clearly the path most likely to get the Company to Rivendell safely, regardless of whether the alternatives were truly impossible or merely less practical than the best alternative.

====Aragorn's knowledge====
Aragorn tells the hobbits in Bree, "I know all the lands between [[the Shire]] and the [[Misty Mountains]], for I have wandered over them for many years."<ref name="Strider" /> But later, speaking of the Ettendales, he says, "That is troll-country, and little known to me," and "I do not know the way".<ref name="Flight" /> The Ettendales or Ettenmoors are on a line between the Shire and the northern part of the Misty Mountains.{{Fact}}
;Explanation:If we take Aragorn's line "wandered over them" literally, we can accept that Aragorn has also wandered over the Ettendales. Of course that does not necessarily means that Aragorn should know ''everything'' about those lands, or even know ''all'' ways (e.g., to Rivendell) through them. He says that he knows those lands "little."

====Building Barad-dûr====
[[Elrond]] says at his Council that the foundations of [[Barad-dûr]] were made with the [[The One Ring|One Ring]],<ref>{{FR|II2}}, "The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure.</ref> which is consistent with its destruction when the Ring is destroyed. However, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began building Barad-dûr in about [[Second Age 1000|S.A. 1000]] and forged the Ring in about [[Second Age 1600|S.A. 1600]].<ref>https://www.quora.com/What-inconsistencies-if-any-appear-in-the-Hobbit-Lord-of-the-Rings-and-the-Silmarillion</ref>
;Explanation:Maybe Sauron ordered his Orcs to begin gathering materials and preparing the land for construction in S.A. 1000, and only commenced building once he forged the Ring in S.A. 1600.{{Fact}} Six hundred years is a long time, but the Barad-dûr was a monumental structure that would have required an unprecedented amount of stone, iron, and other materials to erect. Or maybe the foundations were built before the making of the Ring, but lacking a last piece, or some power of will that the Ring provided.{{Fact}}

====Heirlooms of Arnor====
At the Council of Elrond, Aragorn says of [[Narsil]], the Sword of [[Elendil]], "It has been treasured by his heirs when '''all other heirlooms were lost'''" (emphasis added).<ref name="CofE" /> However, Appendix A lists other heirlooms that were kept with it: "...''there [at [[Rivendell]]] also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the [[Ring of Barahir]], the shards of Narsil, the [[star of Elendil]], and the [[sceptre of Annúminas]]''."<ref name="AppEriador">{{App|Eriador}}</ref>
;Explanation:The Ring of Barahir was briefly lost to the [[Dúnedain]] when Arvedui bartered it to the Lossoth for supplies. No loss of the other heirlooms appears.

====Possession of the [[Nine Rings]]====
In ''[[The Council of Elrond]]'' [[Gandalf]] says that the [[Nazgûl]] kept their Rings by saying "The Nine the Nazgûl keep".<ref name="CofE" /> However in most other references, it is mentioned that Sauron had taken them.<ref>{{FR|I2}}, "the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed."</ref><ref>{{FR|II7}}, "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."</ref> Furthermore, Frodo does not see any Rings on them on [[Weathertop]], and it is believed that if they did wear the Rings, they would have been fully [[Unseen|invisible]] (including their cloaks).<ref>http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvRiders</ref>
The line in the Council of Elrond represents Tolkien's earlier intention that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.{{fact}}
;Explanation:The phrase can be also interpreted as "The Nine ''keep'' the Nazgûl ''in Sauron’s thrall''," though this would be an awkward construction. The doings of Sauron and the Nazgûl were mostly unknown to the Council, so it is likely that Gandalf did not actually know the physical disposition of the Rings and was merely alluding to the indelible association between the Nine Rings and the Nine Nazgûl. Moreover, as far as the Council was concerned, the situation was equivalent whether the Nine Rings were on Sauron's fingers or on those of his slaves, so the lack of precision was immaterial.

====Feeling the Mithril-coat====
The [[Mithril-coat]] that Bilbo gives Frodo is "almost as supple as linen". However, when Bilbo slaps Frodo on the back after giving him the coat, he says, "''Ow!... You are too hard now to slap''!"<ref name="Ring">{{FR|II3}}</ref>
;Explanation:Perhaps Bilbo is joking. Or perhaps the mail tenses in response to an impact, similar to non-Newtonian fluids solidifying under stress. It's fairly common in Middle-earth for works of master craftsmanship to have some "magical" attributes, and given the cost of mithril, it's a safe bet that only the best smiths in Erebor would have undertaken such a project. Of all of the magical abilities one might want for a coat of nigh-unbreakable chain mail, the ability to turn solid when struck while being as soft as cloth at all other times would be high on the list.

====Galadriel's mind-reading====
[[Galadriel]] tells Frodo and Sam that she knows Sauron's thoughts that concern the Elves.<ref name="Mirror">{{FR|II7}}</ref> It seems strange that they do not ask her whether she has any information they might find useful and she does not offer them any. Also, she does not seem to have known that [[Saruman]] had switched to Sauron's side nineteen years earlier, though it must have been in Sauron's thoughts and the defection of a member of the [[White Council]] seems to concern the Elves. At least, she did not warn Gandalf in the messages he got from [[Lothlórien|Lóthlorien]] after reading the [[Scroll of Isildur]], the year before he trustingly entered [[Orthanc]].<ref name="CofE" /> (Also, when Aragorn was serving in Gondor under the name [[Thorongil]], he "often warned [[Ecthelion II|Ecthelion]] not to put trust in Saruman".<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref> It is strange that he knew not to trust Saruman but Gandalf did not.)
;Explanation:Conceivably Galadriel gained the ability to read Sauron's mind sometime after the messages went to Gandalf.

====Galadriel's role====
Galadriel tells [[Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship]], "I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, or in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be."<ref>{{FR|I6}}</ref> Later she tells Frodo, "I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor."<ref name="Mirror" /> However, the rhyme she sends Aragorn advises a specific course: the [[Grey Company]] should come out of [[Rivendell]], and Aragorn should take the [[Paths of the Dead]].<ref>{{TT|III5}}</ref> Likewise [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]] conclude that Galadriel sent the message to the Grey Company telling them to join Aragorn in [[Rohan]]; this seems to be "contriving" and "choosing between one course and another". Incidentally, it is odd that the Grey Company got this message without knowing who it was from.<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Passing of the Grey Company]]"</ref>
;Explanation:One could imagine that someone else ([[Celeborn]]?) made the decisions and Galadriel only sent the messages; Legolas and Gimli may have erred in thinking she was the source. Alternatively, it is conceivable that Galadriel's words to the Fellowship were calculated to have a desired impact, even though at face value they seemed to be of no use.

====The origin of orcs====
Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that [[Morgoth]] made trolls and orcs.<ref>{{TT|III4}}. "But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves."</ref> However, Frodo says to Sam, "''The [[Shadow]] that bred them [Orcs] can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined and twisted them''."<ref>{{RK|VI1}}</ref>
;Explanation:Tolkien went through several attempts to explain [[Orcs/Origin|the origin of orcs]] and never stated a definitive answer. However, when he addressed this point in "[[Letter 153]]", he described Treebeard as "not one of the Wise", and he quoted and endorsed Frodo's line above.

====Tales of hobbits====
Pippin tells [[Théoden]], "I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits."<ref name="Isengard" /> But hobbits live in [[Bree]], Tom Bombadil knows many stories about hobbits, one would think the [[Rangers of the North|Rangers]] (who guard [[The Shire]] and Bree) and the Elves of Rivendell (where Bilbo has been living) would know some, and the Elves of Lórien have at least heard of hobbits.<ref>{{FR|II6}}, "We had not heard of—hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year...."</ref>
;Explanation:Pippin has just woken up from a nap, after a lunch that included wine, and is talking to a king for the first time in his life; he may not be thinking clearly. Alternatively, Pippin is the most glib and smooth or courtly of the hobbits in the Fellowship, and he may have exaggerated to flatter the king, even without realizing he was doing it.

====The peril of deep arts====
In connection with the ''[[Palantíri|palantír]]'' of Orthanc, Gandalf observes to Pippin, "''Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves.''"<ref name="Palantir">{{TT|III11}}</ref> However, never in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' or ''The Lord of the Rings'' does he warn [[Thorin]] or the hobbits against using elvish swords, which glow in the presence of orcs, or [[Barrow-blades|daggers from the barrow]], which are especially effective against Ringwraiths. He returns the [[Phial of Galadriel]] to Frodo and [[Gifts of Galadriel|Galadriel's box of earth]] to Sam without any warnings. Also, there is no apparent danger in characters' using other products of elven arts ([[elven cloak]]s, a ''[[hithlain]]'' rope, ''[[lembas]]'').
;Explanation:Maybe the ''palantíri'' are "devices" in a sense in which the other things named are not.

:Furthermore, it's possible that Gandalf was only attempting to discourage Pippin's curiosity, worrying that it could lead to another dangerous situation like that with the ''palantír''.

====The eyes in Orthanc====
When Aragorn tells Gimli and Legolas that he's confronted Sauron in the ''palantír'', he says that Sauron had not previously known Aragorn was alive. In explanation, he adds, "''The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Théoden''".<ref>{{RK|V2}}</ref> But [[Gríma|Wormtongue]] knew that Aragorn claimed to be Isildur's heir, as Gandalf points out to Pippin.<ref name="Palantir" /> Thus whether Wormtongue recognized Aragorn from Orthanc does not matter to Sauron's knowledge of Aragorn's existence. (What Aragorn should have deduced was that either Wormtongue never told Saruman about him, or Saruman did not reveal the knowledge, whether to Sauron through the ''palantír'' or to the Nazgûl who came to demand Saruman's supposed captive hobbit. The latter is what Gandalf tells Pippin he fears.)

====[[Mouth of Sauron]] and "Sauron the Great"====
[[Aragorn]] mentions that the name "[[Sauron]]" (meaning "Abominable") is the name used by his enemies, and Sauron does not permit it to be pronounced.<ref>{{TT|III1}}</ref> Therefore it would be problematic, if not logically impossible, for the Ringwraiths to think "Sauron would deal with them later" as they rode away from [[Crickhollow]],<ref>{{FR|I11}}</ref> for the messenger to [[Dáin Ironfoot|Dáin]] to refer to his master as "the Lord Sauron the Great," as Aragorn had heard at the Council of Elrond,<ref name="CofE" /> and for a servant of Sauron to say, "''I am the [[Mouth of Sauron]].''"<ref>{{RK|V10}}</ref>
;Explanation:It could be that Aragorn was mistaken, perhaps thinking of the time before Sauron had declared himself. Another possibility is that the "Mouth" used a different name or title, perhaps in the Black Speech, and Frodo or the translator Tolkien "translated" it as Sauron to clarify it for readers. As the Ringwraiths' thoughts would not have been known to anyone else, the passage presenting those thoughts must have been invented by Frodo or the translator Tolkien, who would be responsible for the choice of "Sauron" there. A similar possibility is that despite Aragorn's blanket statement, Sauron sometimes allowed his servants to use the name in communicating with others who used it. As many of his enemies only knew his "true" name as Sauron, it would also allow him to keep his true names and aliases hidden from them, as well as allow them to immediately recognize whom his servants were referring to.

====Hewing Orcs====
At [[Helm's Deep]], [[Gimli]] tells Éomer that he had "hewn naught but wood since I left Moria," forgetting that he [[Breaking of the Fellowship|fought Orcs]] not long before.
;Explanation:This discrepancy was noted by [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', where they explained that they left it unchanged in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]] because correcting it was impossible, as it would require rewriting the dialogue.<ref name="comp" />{{rp|p. xliv}} [[Amon Hen]] was a week before the Battle of the Hornburg; even for a stout Dwarven warrior, lamenting not killing an Orc for that short period would make him look too bloodthirsty. However, it is possible to interpret Gimli as being scornful towards his latest opponents, deliberately meaning that they were no better than "wood."

==Facts==
====[[Doors of Durin]]====
''[[Moria]]'' translates as "Black Pit" or "Black Chasm" in [[Sindarin]], and the name was said to have been given by the [[Elves]] "without love,"<ref name="Translation">{{App|Translation}}, p. 1137, "Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar... were not dwellers in such places of choice"</ref> possibly indicating that it was a derogatory description. Furthermore, ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' states that [[Khazad-dûm]] was "afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria,"<ref>{{S|Sindar}}</ref> suggesting the name was not widely used until after [[Durin's Bane]] took over the city and it was overrun by [[Orcs]]. It is therefore a paradox why that name appears on the [[Doors of Durin]] (''Ennyn Durin Aran Moria''), made in the [[Second Age]], and with the consent of the [[Dwarves]].
;Explanation:There are many possible explanations to this apparent inconsistency.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, pp. 281-2</ref> The name may have been given by the Elves in reference to Moria's inherent darkness from being underground (in contrast with their love for "green earth and the lights of heaven"), and therefore was in use before Moria's fall to the [[Balrog]].<ref name="Translation" /> There is also no clear evidence that the Dwarves found this name to be offensive, and they may have had no objection to its use on the doors. Some "external" explanations suggest that since the translated names [[Durin (disambiguation)|Durin]] and [[Narvi]] are seen in the inscription, ''Moria'' may also be a "translated" name.

====Eagles====
One of the best-known alleged plot holes is why the [[Eagles]] came to carry [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] and [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] back from [[Mount Doom]] but did not help them to fly the [[the One Ring|One Ring]] there, or at least help them at other points in their journey such as the crossing of the [[Misty Mountains]]. It is particularly hard to understand why this idea was not proposed in the [[Council of Elrond]].
;Explanation:This question is discussed in detail in [[Eagles#Flying the Ring to Mount Doom|the article on the Eagles]], which gives several explanations.

:In general the explanations for not flying the Ring to Mount Doom are better than those for the Fellowship's not at least trying to have the Eagles fly them across the Misty Mountains.

====Distances====
The distances of the Dwarves' travel to [[Rivendell]] in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' seem to have different proportions than those in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Tolkien tried to reconcile the ''Hobbit'' description with the scale of the ''LotR'' map but could not find an appropriate solution.<ref>{{HM|RS}} p. 204</ref>

While Frodo and his companions needed 28 days from [[Hobbiton]] to [[Rivendell]] (10.7 miles/day),<ref name="atlas">[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]''</ref> [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] calculated that Bilbo and [[Thorin and Company]] needed 38 days (17.5 miles/day).<ref name="atlas" /> [[Andreas Möhn|Andreas Moehn]] goes further and supposes that Thorin and Co. wanted two weeks from the [[Trollshaws]] till Rivendell (a distance which [[Glorfindel]] covered in two days), resulting in c. 48 days total.<ref name="lalaith">http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref>
;Explanation:The distances and days are not described in the narrative and can be measured only by references such as the moon phases and other fan calculations; therefore there can be a margin of miscalculation.

:In general, perhaps the Dwarves are by nature slower travelers than Men and/or Hobbits. In ''[[The Departure of Boromir]]'' it is seen that [[Gimli]] had a problem keeping pace with [[Aragorn]] and [[Legolas]].

:The errand of bringing the Ring to Rivendell was much more pressing than the Dwarves'. The dragon was not going anywhere. And Frodo and his companions were hunted down by the [[Nazgûl]].

====Beater and Biter====
The swords [[Glamdring]] and its "mate" [[Orcrist]] are said to have belonged to King [[Turgon]] of the [[First Age]]. They never appeared much in battle (Turgon fought only in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]) and they were witnessed only by the Orcs of [[Beleriand]]. However, in the [[Third Age]] the swords are found in a [[Troll]] hoard in [[Eriador]], and the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] recognize them by their names. The Orcs do not seem to react similarly in the sight of Glamdring in ''The Lord of the Rings'', nor do they seem to recognize [[Narsil]]/[[Andúril]], which is much more "recent".
;Explanation:There can be several theories and explanations of how the swords and even their reputations reach [[Eriador]]. However, the narrative of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' does not justify their significance to the extent of being remembered and recognized by the Goblins of the Third Age, even by tradition.

====The elf-king's favorite gems====
The narration of ''The Hobbit'' says the [[Thranduil|elf-king]]'s favorite gems are "white."<ref>{{H|8}}, "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems...."</ref> However, after the [[Battle of Five Armies]], the narration says, "''To the Elven-king he <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Bard]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> sent the emeralds of [[Girion]], such gems as he most loved''..."<ref>{{H|18}}</ref>
;Explanation:The sentence is somewhat ambiguous: "he" could refer to Bard or Girion instead of the elf-king. However, the elf-king's preference in gems, not the others', would be relevant to Bard's choice of what to give him.

====Thráin and Thorin's settling in the [[Blue Mountains]]====
[[File:Stephen Raw - Middle-earth map (1 of 4).png|250px|thumb|A map of north-west Middle-earth]]
After [[Thráin|Thráin II]] and his followers returned to [[Dunland]] following the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] in {{TA|2799}},
{{Blockquote|they removed and wandered in [[Eriador]], until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the [[Ered Luin]] beyond the [[Lune]].<ref name="AppADurin">{{App|Durin}}</ref>}}
From the point of view of Eriador and the Shire, "beyond the Lune" is north of it.

However, the "Tale of Years" ([[Appendix B]]) states,
{{Blockquote|Thráin and his son Thorin wander westwards. They settle in the South of [[Ered Luin]] beyond [[the Shire]] ({{TA|2802|n}})<ref name="AppThird"/>}}
It is difficult to reconcile the descriptions "beyond the Lune" and "in the south of the [[Blue Mountains|Ered Luin]]."

Other mentions of the Dwarves' homes in the Ered Luin are consistent with both possibilities. "Dwarves dwelt in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the [[Gulf of Lune]], where they have mines that are still in use."<ref name="AppEriador" />

"Especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune" implies that a smaller number of Dwarves lived north of the Gulf, as shown in two other quotations. In a parenthetical comment made in "Of Dwarves and Men" in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', Tolkien indicated that beyond the inflow of the [[Little Lune]] was 'Dwarf territory'.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}, p. 313</ref> Likewise in Appendix A: [[Arvedui]], the last king of [[Arthedain]], "hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains".<ref name="AppEriador" />

====Westron and English====
In a few places, Tolkien might be thought to have forgotten that the English, including [[Old English]], in ''The Lord of the Rings'' is supposed to be translated from [[Westron]] and related languages. Some of these are easily explained, and Tolkien explained the similarity between the Sindarin ''[[Baranduin]]'' and the English "Brandywine".<ref>{{App|Translation}} "Brandywine" is somewhat similar in both sound and meaning to the hobbits' Westron nickname for the river, ''Bralda-him'' meaning 'heady ale'.</ref> The most difficult is the comment, "This was ''[[Orthanc]]'', the citadel of [[Saruman]], the name of which had (by design or chance) a twofold meaning; for in the Elvish speech ''orthanc'' signifies Mount Fang, but in the language of the Mark of old ''the Cunning Mind''."<ref name="Isengard" /> However, ''orthanc'' means "cunning" not in [[Rohanese]] but in Old English, which Tolkien used to translate Rohanese.
;Explanation:By a further coincidence, the unattested name for ''Orthanc'' in Rohanese could also be "Orthanc" and mean "cunning mind".

====Chronology====
=====When Bilbo departed=====
In the chapter ''[[Roast Mutton]]'', [[Thorin and Company]] depart from the ''[[Green Dragon]]'' "one fine morning just before May." In the later written and published "[[The Quest of Erebor]]", part of "[[Unfinished Tales]]", the author established that the day of departure was [[27 April]].<ref>{{UT|Quest}}</ref> However, the chapter ''[[Flies and Spiders]]'' refers to what has happened "since they started their journey that May morning long ago."
;Explanation:The fifth month of the [[Shire Calendar]], Thrimidge, falls between 22 April to 21 May. By the human calendar, the journey would have started just before May; but by the hobbit calendar, the journey started during Thrimidge. The second reference to May could have been a "translation error," where "Thrimidge" was translated as "May" regardless of the actual date.

=====[[White Council]] during the [[Watchful Peace]]=====
According to [[Appendix A]], "The Stewards", during the [[Watchful Peace]] "''Sauron withdrew before the power of the [[White Council]] and the Ringwraiths remained hidden in Morgul Vale''". However the Watchful Peace ended in {{TA|2460}}, three years before the White Council was formed. Thus according to [[Robert Foster]], the reference to the Council is "incorrect".<ref>[[Robert Foster]] (2001) ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth|The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth: From The Hobbit through The Lord of the Rings and Beyond]]''. Random House Digital, [http://books.google.com/books?id=GNGJvGi849UC&pg=PA538 p. 538].</ref>
;Explanation:Foster suggests that the reference to the "White Council" is rather to "the [[Wise]]" in general.

=====Moon phases=====
Tolkien was particularly careful about the phases of the [[Moon]] in the ''The Lord of the Rings''. Yet some errors did elude him. See for example [[13 January|January 13]], [[16 January|January 16]], [[22 February|February 22]], [[22 September|September 22]].

In general, it is possible that Tolkien consulted a modern almanac to model the moon phases, and also possible that he confused the meanings of "New Moon": the astronomical (the moment when the moon is darkest) and the colloquial (appearance of the new crescent moon).<ref>http://shire-reckoning.com/moon.html</ref>

Another error appears in ''The Hobbit'': [[Bard|Bard I]] killed [[Smaug]] "at the rising of the moon"<ref>{{H|15}}</ref> when "the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his [Smaug's] great wings... the waxing moon rose higher and higher". Also the [[thrush]] tells Bard, "''Wait! Wait!... The Moon is rising.''" <ref>{{H|14}}</ref> However, according to astronomy a waxing moon rises only in the morning, after the sun. We can be certain the moon was waxing because this occurs the day after [[Durin's Day]], which is the first day in the last month of autumn that the new moon is visible together with the sun.<ref name="lalaith" />
;Explanation:One might imagine that Bard needed to wait for the moon to fall below a cloudbank and that the tradition is corrupt.<ref name="lalaith" />

=====[[Shadow over Hollin]]=====
While the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] traverses [[Hollin]], they see and feel a flying shadow that causes the stars to fade.<ref name="Ring" /> Since no other such phenomena occur, when the [[Fell Beast]]s are introduced, the reader makes such a connection. However [[Grishnakh]] later tells [[Uglúk]] that Sauron was not yet permitting the Nazgûl to traverse to the west side of the [[Anduin]],<ref>{{TT|III3}}</ref> and still later Gandalf says, "''The Nazgûl have crossed the River!''" as if it were something new.<ref name="Palantir" />
;Explanation:Possibly a Nazgûl got lost or disobeyed orders and prematurely crossed the [[Anduin]]. Or possibly the fellowship noticed something unexplained and unrelated to the Fell Beasts. Perhaps it was some feeling of foreboding as they would eventually have to go to Moria. It could also be a sort of metaphor of Sauron observing them, as often throughout the books Sauron's gaze is compared to a heavy shadow bearing down on what it sees. Another possibility is that it was a flock of Saruman's ''[[crebain]]'' (crows) flying overhead. Finally, it may be an intentionally vague event intended to create a feeling of unknown menace.

=====Nights in Lórien=====
The surviving members of the Company spend their first night in [[Lothlórien|Lórien]] in a "flet" in a tree. On their second night, "they rested and slept without fear on the ground".<ref>{{FR|II6}}</ref> On their third night, they sleep on the ground again, in a pavilion in [[Caras Galadon]]. "For a little while the travellers talked of their night before in the tree-tops, and of their day's journey..." And Aragorn says, "''But tonight I shall sleep without fear for the first time since I left Rivendell.''"<ref name="Mirror" /> The night in the tree-tops was not the night before, and Aragorn did sleep without fear on the previous night, so the second night appears to be forgotten.
;Explanation:In Lórien at least some members of the Fellowship lose track of the flow of time. Shortly after Aragorn's remark, the narration says, "They remained some days in Lothlórien, so far as they could tell or remember." Also, after leaving Lórien, Sam feels sure they had not spent a whole month there, despite the evidence of the phase of the moon, and Frodo thinks while in Lórien they were in the past and mentions that he does not remember seeing the moon while there. However, Legolas assures him that only their perception of time was changed, and Aragorn points out that the time had indeed been a month.<ref>{{FR|II9}}</ref> Aragorn's forgetting his night without fear could be an effect of this changed sense of time. The phrase in the narration "the night before in the tree-tops" is harder to explain within the story, as the narration does include the intervening night, but the inconspicuous contradiction might be deliberate foreshadowing of what the Company will experience.

=====Éomer and Éowyn after Aragorn's coronation=====
In the chapter ''[[The Steward and the King]]'', it is stated: "So the glad days passed; and on the eighth day of May the Riders of Rohan made ready, and rode off by the North-way, and with them went the sons of Elrond. All the road was lined with people to do them honour and praise them, from the Gate of the City to the walls of the [[Pelennor Fields|Pelennor]]."<ref name="SaK">{{RK|VI5}}</ref> However, in ''[[Appendix B]]'' of some editions of the novel<ref>http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-1958.html</ref> there is the entry: "May 8 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) Éomer and Éowyn depart '''from''' Rohan with the sons of Elrond".<ref name="AppB4">{{App|Chief}}</ref> (Emphasis added.)

=====The sapling's discovery=====
In the text of ''[[The Return of the King]]'' it is stated: "And Aragorn planted the new tree in the court by the fountain, and swiftly and gladly it began to grow; and when the month of June entered in it was laden with blossom".<ref name="SaK" /> The wording of this sentence suggests that Aragorn planted the sapling ''before'' June began. However, in ''Appendix B'' there is the entry: "June 25 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) King Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree",<ref name="AppB4" /> in which case it could not have blossomed until late in the month.

=====Walda's death=====
King [[Walda]]'s death date is recorded in [[Appendix A]] as [[Third Age 2851]] but in [[Appendix B]] as [[Third Age 2861]].

==Later corrected==
Several errors were simply remnants of Tolkien's earlier writings, which later escaped his attention when revising the book. Some of them have been corrected in the later editions of ''The Lord of the Rings'' and ''The Hobbit''.

====Bridle and headstall====
The first edition referred to the "bridle and bit" of [[Glorfindel]]'s horse, [[Asfaloth]].<ref name="Flight" /> [[Rhona Beare]] wrote to Tolkien asking how that was possible when elves do not use bridles. Tolkien replied in [[Letter 211]] that he had written "bridle and bit" before thinking about how elves ride, and he changed it to "headstall" in the second edition. However, a later mention of Asfaloth's bridle remained in the chapter.<ref>"His hand left the bridle and gripped the hilt of his sword, and with a red flash he drew it."</ref>

====Durin's Day====
The original text of ''The Hobbit'' described [[Durin's Day]] as occurring on "the first day of the last moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|3}}</ref> the "first moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|4}}</ref> and "the last week of autumn".<ref>{{H|11}}</ref> In the [[1995]] edition the mention in Chapter 4 was revised to place the day at the end of autumn, in line with the other two mentions.<ref>Chester N. Scoville, "''The Hobbit''" in ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment]]'' (2007), Michael D.C. Drout, ed., Taylor and Francis, p. 279</ref>

====Bandobras' parentage====
The "[[Prologue Concerning Hobbits, and other matters|Prologue]]" mentions that [[Bandobras Took]] was the son (not grandson) of [[Isengrim Took II]]. This has been corrected in the 50th Anniversary edition.

====Sam's birth====
In the second edition of ''The Lord of the Rings'', [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s year of birth was added to ''[[Appendix B|The Tale of Years]]'' as [[Third Age 2963]]. This contradicts both a later entry in ''The Tale of Years'' and the [[Appendix C]] given as [[Third Age 2980]].<ref>[[Wayne G. Hammond]], [[Christina Scull]], ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', page 716</ref>

====Gandalf's letter====
The letter Gandalf leaves for Frodo at the ''[[Prancing Pony]]'' is dated "[[Midyear's Day]], Shire Year, 1418."<ref name="Strider">{{FR|I10}}</ref> However, in editions published during Tolkien's lifetime, Appendix B says that on June 29, "Gandalf meets [[Radagast]]." Then Gandalf says he left [[Bree]] at dawn of the following day,<ref name="CofE" /> which would be June 30, two days before Midyear's Day (as 1 [[Lithe]] comes between).
;Explanation:Perhaps Gandalf, who was in a hurry and had been traveling for days, made the error. However, the entry in Appendix B for June 29, 3018, has been deleted from the 50th Anniversary Edition.

====Crossing Rohan inconspicuously====
As they ride away from [[Isengard]], Gandalf tells Merry that the [[Eye of Sauron|Lidless Eye]] will be looking toward Rohan, so "''He [Théoden] will ride from there [Helm's Deep] to Dunharrow by paths among the hills. From now on no more than two or three together are to go openly over the land, by day or night, when it can be avoided."''<ref name="Palantir" /> However, later that night, after Pippin looks into the ''palantír'' and Gandalf says they must move from the spot, Théoden says he will go in a group of twelve, and Gandalf agrees.<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "'I will keep Éomer and ten Riders,' said the king. 'They shall ride with me at early day. The rest may go with Aragorn and ride as soon as they have a mind.' 'As you will,' said Gandalf."</ref> Then when the trip to Helm's Deep starts, the number has increased to twenty-six, and Aragorn goes with Théoden.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "Soon all were ready to depart: twenty-four horses, with Gimli behind Legolas, and Merry in front of Aragorn."</ref> The trip from Helm's Deep to Dunharrow has a group of five hundred.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "A thousand spears had indeed already ridden away at night, but still there would be some five hundred more to go with the king."</ref> They do ride through the hills, as Gandalf had said. "Most of the time" they're in a group bigger than three.<ref>{{RK|V3}}, "Sometimes where the way was broader he [Merry] had ridden at the king's side, not noticing that many of the Riders smiled to see the two together: the hobbit on his little shaggy grey pony, and the Lord of Rohan on his great white horse. [...] But most of the time, especially on the last day, Merry had ridden by himself just behind the king, saying nothing, and trying to understand the slow sonorous speech of Rohan that he heard the men behind him using."</ref>
;Explanation:The Fiftieth Anniversary Edition contains a clarifying addition to contextualize the order: "He will ride from there '''with many men''' to Dunharrow by paths among the hills." (Emphasis added.) This may suggest that "by paths among the hills" is in opposition to "openly over the land". So long as the large groups traveled by the hills, they were not conspicuous to the Lidless Eye.

====Knowledge of the ''Palantíri''====
After Gandalf learns that the crystal ball he has recovered is the ''[[palantír]]'' of [[Orthanc]], he tells [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] the [[White Council]] did not know any of the ''palantíri'' (presumably those of [[Gondor]]) survived disaster in Gondor (presumably the [[Kin-strife]]).<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "It was not known to us that any of the ''palantíri'' had escaped the ruin of Gondor."</ref> However, after [[Denethor]] reveals his ''palantír'', Gandalf says in earlier editions, "''Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long have I known that here in the White Tower, as at Orthanc, one of the Seven Stones was preserved.''"<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Pyre of Denethor]]"</ref>
;Explanation:Gandalf could have learned about the two ''palantíri'' by himself, after the last time the White Council met (66 years earlier), or could have been concealing his knowledge so as to keep secret his source for this information.

:However, in the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition, the sentence was revised to read, "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, '''long ago I guessed''' that here in the White Tower, one at least of the Seven Seeing Stones was preserved." (Emphasis added.)

====Addition of the Westmarch (and Buckland) to the Shire====
In early editions, the "Prologue" to ''The Lord of the Rings'' contained the sentence "Outside the [[Farthing]]s were the East and West Marches: the [[Buckland]] and the [[Westmarch]] added to the Shire in {{SR|1462}}."<ref name="OldPrologue" /> That had two inconsistencies with other parts of the text. First, the "Tale of Years" dates the event to {{SR|1452}}.<ref name="AppLater">{{App|Later}}</ref> Second, various points indicate that Buckland was part of the Shire. The clearest may be Merry's comment to the other hobbits, when they have gone through the tunnel under the [[High Hay]] from Buckland into the [[Old Forest]], that they have left the Shire.<ref>{{FR|I6}}, "'There!' said Merry. 'You have left the Shire, and are now outside, and on the edge of the Old Forest.'"</ref>
;Explanation:In the 50th Anniversary Edition, the sentence was changed to "Outside the Farthings were the East and West Marches: the Buckland; and the Westmarch added to the Shire in S.R. 1452." In addition to the correction of the date, the semicolon after "Buckland" indicates that Buckland was not added to the Shire after the War of the Ring, making the sentence consistent with the idea that it was already part of the Shire.<ref name="NewPrologue">{{FR|Prologue|50}}</ref>

====Mirror of Galadriel====
In editions prior to the 50th Anniversary Edition, the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]] mentions that Frodo and Sam looked into the [[Mirror of Galadriel]] on [[14 February]]. However it is clear from the narrative that this occurred ''one day'' before departure on [[16 February]], not ''two''. [[Wayne G. Hammond|Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull|Scull]] decided to fix the Tale of Years so that the Mirror of Galadriel sequence happened on 15 February.

==From the publishers==
====Nameless Pass as an alternative name for Cirith Ungol in the index====
The index entry for Cirith Ungol has Nameless Pass as an (alternative) name in brackets, and the index entry for Nameless Pass has "see Cirith Ungol" after it in the following e-book editions:
*The Lord of the Rings (i.e. The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King together in one e-book) published by HarperCollinsPublishers 2005 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN 978-0-007-32259-6
*The Return of the King, J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Part 3 published by HarperCollins Publishers 2008 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN 978-0-007-32255-8
The description of the landscape below seen by Frodo from the winding stairs in the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' and the description of the landscape below seen by Sam from the pass of Cirith Ungol contradict that the Nameless Pass was an alternative name for the Pass of Cirith Ungol. In the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' Frodo from above on the winding stair sees the wraith-road running from the dead city in a great revine at the head of the Morgul Valley to the "Nameless Pass" that is also referred to as the "main pass."

In the chapter ''The Tower of Cirith Ungol'' Sam sees a broad road running from the Tower of Cirith Ungol down to join the road that came over the Morgul Pass. "The dead city" seems to be an alternative name for Minas Morgul. "Wraith-road" seems to be an alternative name for the Morgul-road.

Frodo can see the road that runs from Minas Morgul in the great ravine at the head of the Morgul Vale to the Nameless Pass from his observation point high up on the winding stair that leads to the tunnel and then on to the pass of Cirith Ungol. Since the road leads from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and winds down to join the road that came from the Morgul Pass, then Cirith Ungol must be higher up on the left side of the Nameless Pass, and the Nameless Pass cannot be the same as the Pass of Cirith Ungol. Since no other pass is mentioned in the landscape, the "Nameless Pass" must be the Morgul Pass (also referred to as the "main pass"), and Cirith Ungol must be the pass that is also referred to as the "high pass."

====HarperCollins 2005 EPub Edition of March 2009====
The entry that King Argeleb I was slain in battle in appendix B The Third Age is erroneously dated with the year 1977 instead of the year 1356 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. As a consequence the following entries up to and including the entry that many Periannath migrate from Bree erroneously have the date from the entry that immediately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Corsairs ravage Pelargir and slay King Minardil is erroneously dated with the year 1601 instead of the year 1634 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The year 1601 is the year for the entry that is two entries above this entry.

The entry that the Great Plague devastates Gondor is erroneously dated with the year 1634 instead of the year 1636 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The following entries up to and including the entry that Frumgar leads the Éothéod into the North also erroneously have the date from the entry that immeditately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Nazgûl issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2002 instead of the year 2000 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry for the fall of Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2043 instead of the year 2002 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that King Eärnur becomes King of Gondor and is challenged by the Witch-king is erroneously dated with the year 2000 instead of the year 2043 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

{{References}}
[[Category:Debates]]

Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

2025-12-18T16:01:00Z

Spearwielder: rewrite didactic paragraph giving personal opinion, reorganize paragraph on "translator", delete "seemingly" (these really are contradictions), a few other tweaks

{{cleanup}}

The '''inconsistencies''' are various vague or contradictory statements that can be found throughout Tolkien's fiction.

Although [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] paid a great deal of attention to detail in his [[Secondary world]] to preserve a realistic consistency,<ref>{{L|236}}</ref> in this vast creation, unavoidably, some more or less degrees of inconsistencies had slipped in. Most can be revealed after more than one reading of the books and through study. Regarding the inconsistencies, [[Christopher Tolkien]] has noted that:
{{blockquote|...the credibility that my father was so anxious to maintain. Of course if he had noticed this inconsistency himself or had it pointed out to him he would have altered it without a second thought.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp>{{HM|RC}}</ref>{{rp|p. xliv}}}}
He also noted that:
{{blockquote|However much my father desired to achieve consistency at every level of his work, from capital letters to the dates of dynasties, he was bound to fail. [...] His life was a perpetual battle against time (& tiredness) [...] But he 'niggled' on a grand and noble conception, & indeed its coherence in fine detail is a part of its power.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp/>{{rp|p. xliii}}}}

J.R.R. Tolkien's comment, late in life, was quoted by Hammond and Scull:
{{blockquote|Personally I have ceased to bother about these minor 'discrepancies', since if the genealogies and calendars etc. lack verisimilitude it is in their general excessive accuracy: as compared with real annals or genealogies! Anyway the slips are few, have mostly been removed, and the discovery of what remain seems an amusing pastime!|Letter to [[Joy Hill]], October 30, 1967, quoted in the "Note on the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]]."}}

Hammond and Scull added, "In fact Tolkien had not 'ceased to bother', and 'slips' were dealt with as opportunities arose."<ref>''The Lord of the Rings'', [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]], "Note on the 50th Anniversary Edition"</ref>

Fans of Tolkien usually accept that in any work there are usually plot holes. In a larger, far more detailed and realistic book we expect fewer (if any) plot holes, when in reality there is a far greater chance because of its complexity.{{Fact}}

The [[legendarium]] supposedly consists of translations and adaptations by a "translator", the narrator of the Prologue and Appendices of ''The Lord of the Rings,'' from "ancient sources" such as the [[Red Book]].<ref name="OldPrologue">{{FR|Prologue}}</ref><ref>{{App|F2}}</ref> Inconsistencies can be blamed on that "translator". For instance, he mentions in Appendix D that he might have made many errors on the calendar while translating the ancient sources, a comment Tolkien wrote as a fail-safe for any error he might have made. Likewise inconsistencies can be blamed on the sources. For instance, he "translator" mentions in Appendix F ("Of the Elves") that Frodo had erred in thinking the dialect of Sindarin spoken by the elves of Lórien was Silvan Elvish.<ref>{{FR|II6}}. A footnote directs the reader to the correction in the appendix.</ref>

Such explanations attributing the inconsistencies to the "translator Tolkien" or the "original sources" are easy and unenlightening. Therefore many fans prefer to explain them with some internal explanation. Most of the explanations below are of this type. For example, at least some of the logical inconsistencies can be attributed to the characters' erroneous statements, since none of them has all knowledge about everything. Contradictions of this type are grouped under "Characters". Others are grouped under "Facts", which has subgroups.

For some readers, the consistency of detail is important, as Christopher Tolkien said, and for some finding the remaining inconsistencies is an amusing pastime, as J. R. R. Tolkien said (both quoted above). For others, though, such details are superficial and finding inconsistencies is over-analysis that distracts from values such as plot, character, atmosphere, and style.

==Characters==
====The Eldest====
Both [[Tom Bombadil]] and [[Treebeard]] are referred to as the [[eldest]] being in [[Middle-earth]]. Tom says that about himself,<ref>{{FR|I7}}, "Eldest, that's what I am.... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn."</ref> and [[Elrond]] mentions that the Elves knew Tom as "oldest and fatherless".<ref name="CofE">{{FR|II2}}</ref> However, [[Gandalf]] tells [[Théoden]] that Treebeard is "the oldest of all living things",<ref name="Isengard">{{TT|III8}}</ref> and Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest".<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[Many Partings]]"</ref>
;Explanation:Maybe Tom is not "alive" as Treebeard is.<ref>Tom Shippey, ''The Road to Middle-earth: Revised and Expanded Edition'', p. 107</ref><ref>Gene Hargrove, "Tom Bombadil", in Michael D. C. Drout, ed., ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=by0dzzQ6m8sC&pg=PA671 J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia]'' (2006), Routledge, p. 671</ref> On this subject, Gandalf, [[Saruman]], and [[Sauron]] have ''existed'' far longer than Treebeard, as they are [[Maiar]], but they haven't been ''alive'' (embodied physically) as long.

====Giving up a Ring of Power====
Gandalf says, "'<nowiki/>''A [[Rings of Power|Ring of Power]] looks after itself, [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to some one else's care—and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] alone in history has gone beyond playing, and really done it.'''"<ref name="Shadow">{{FR|I2}}</ref> However, [[Narya|Gandalf's own ring]] was given to him freely by [[Círdan]].<ref name="AppThird">{{App|TA}}</ref> Also, the dwarves of [[Durin's Folk]] who held their Ring typically "surrendered" it when near death, and in particular [[Thrór]] gave it to his son [[Thráin II]],<ref name="AppADurin" /> as Gandalf says at the [[Council of Elrond]].<ref name="CofE" />
;Explanation:Perhaps Gandalf meant only the Rings that [[Sauron]] had had a hand in making, which might be the only ones that "grip." Gandalf's ring is one of the [[Three Rings|Three]], which Sauron didn't touch. Durin's Folk believed that they had received their Ring directly from the [[Gwaith-i-Mírdain|Elven-Smiths]], though Sauron did help to make it. Further, it is noted in the [[The Lord of the Rings Appendices|Appendices]] that the Rings could influence Dwarves to a much lesser extent than [[Men]], specifically "the only power over [Dwarves] that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things."<ref>{{App|A3}}</ref> Gandalf may have been speaking implicitly only of Men, considering the context of the conversation and his audience.{{Fact}}

====Sam's spying====
[[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] tells Frodo that, as a result of [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam's]] eavesdropping, he and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] "know most of what Gandalf has told you about the [[One Ring|Ring]]."<ref name="ACU">{{FR|I5}}</ref> Most of what Gandalf told Frodo was in one long conversation, at the end of which Gandalf caught Sam.<ref name="Shadow" /> This contradicts Merry's statement that after Sam was caught, he "seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up."<ref name="ACU" />
;Explanation:Maybe Sam's information was what he learned before he was caught,{{Fact}} though that's not what Merry says.

====A choice of dangers====
[[Aragorn]] tells the hobbits, as they prepare to leave [[Bree]], "''After [[Weathertop]] our journey will become more difficult, and we shall have to choose between various dangers''."<ref name="Strider" /> The ridges they have to climb after Weathertop may be more difficult than the [[Midgewater Marshes]], but they encounter no dangers on the route Aragorn chooses, and he doesn't mention any choices of dangers or even warn the hobbits of any dangers, except the chance that the [[Nazgûl]] will find them as they cross the [[Last Bridge]].<ref name="Flight">{{FR|I12}}</ref>
;Explanation:Not all risked dangers actually materialize, and Aragorn does cite two other possible courses that have their own possible hazards. One is going north through the [[Ettenmoors|Ettendales]] instead of crossing the [[Ford of Bruinen]], but in addition to the danger of [[trolls]], that route would take too long and the Company could run out of food. The other is finding the Ford without following the Road, but Aragorn regards that as impossible.<ref>{{FR|I12}}, "'We cannot hope to find a path through these hills. Whatever danger may beset it, the Road is our only way to the Ford.'"</ref> In his estimation, the Road was clearly the path most likely to get the Company to Rivendell safely, regardless of whether the alternatives were truly impossible or merely less practical than the best alternative.

====Aragorn's knowledge====
Aragorn tells the hobbits in Bree, "I know all the lands between [[the Shire]] and the [[Misty Mountains]], for I have wandered over them for many years."<ref name="Strider" /> But later, speaking of the Ettendales, he says, "That is troll-country, and little known to me," and "I do not know the way".<ref name="Flight" /> The Ettendales or Ettenmoors are on a line between the Shire and the northern part of the Misty Mountains.{{Fact}}
;Explanation:If we take Aragorn's line "wandered over them" literally, we can accept that Aragorn has also wandered over the Ettendales. Of course that doesn't necessarily means that Aragorn should know ''everything'' about those lands, or even know ''all'' ways (e.g., to Rivendell) through them. He says that he knows those lands "little."

====Building Barad-dûr====
[[Elrond]] says at his Council that the foundations of [[Barad-dûr]] were made with the [[The One Ring|One Ring]],<ref>{{FR|II2}}, "The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure.</ref> which is consistent with its destruction when the Ring is destroyed. However, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began building Barad-dûr in about [[Second Age 1000|S.A. 1000]] and forged the Ring in about [[Second Age 1600|S.A. 1600]].<ref>https://www.quora.com/What-inconsistencies-if-any-appear-in-the-Hobbit-Lord-of-the-Rings-and-the-Silmarillion</ref>
;Explanation:Maybe Sauron ordered his Orcs to begin gathering materials and preparing the land for construction in S.A. 1000, and only commenced building once he forged the Ring in S.A. 1600.{{Fact}} Six hundred years is a long time, but the Barad-dûr was a monumental structure that would have required an unprecedented amount of stone, iron, and other materials to erect. Or maybe the foundations were built before the making of the Ring, but lacking a last piece, or some power of will that the Ring provided.{{Fact}}

====Heirlooms of Arnor====
At the Council of Elrond, Aragorn says of [[Narsil]], the Sword of [[Elendil]], "It has been treasured by his heirs when '''all other heirlooms were lost'''" (emphasis added).<ref name="CofE" /> However, Appendix A lists other heirlooms that were kept with it: "...''there [at [[Rivendell]]] also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the [[Ring of Barahir]], the shards of Narsil, the [[star of Elendil]], and the [[sceptre of Annúminas]]''."<ref name="AppEriador">{{App|Eriador}}</ref>
;Explanation:The Ring of Barahir was briefly lost to the [[Dúnedain]] when Arvedui bartered it to the Lossoth for supplies. No loss of the other heirlooms appears.

====Possession of the [[Nine Rings]]====
In ''[[The Council of Elrond]]'' [[Gandalf]] says that the [[Nazgûl]] kept their Rings by saying "The Nine the Nazgûl keep".<ref name="CofE" /> However in most other references, it is mentioned that Sauron had taken them.<ref>{{FR|I2}}, "the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed."</ref><ref>{{FR|II7}}, "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."</ref> Furthermore, Frodo doesn't see any Rings on them on [[Weathertop]], and it is believed that if they did wear the Rings, they would have been fully [[Unseen|invisible]] (including their cloaks).<ref>http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvRiders</ref>
The line in the Council of Elrond represents Tolkien's earlier intention that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.
;Explanation:The phrase can be also interpreted as "The Nine ''keep'' the Nazgûl ''in Sauron’s thrall''," though this would be an awkward construction. The doings of Sauron and the Nazgûl were mostly unknown to the Council, so it is likely that Gandalf did not actually know the physical disposition of the Rings and was merely alluding to the indelible association between the Nine Rings and the Nine Nazgûl. Moreover, as far as the Council was concerned, the situation was equivalent whether the Nine Rings were on Sauron's fingers or on those of his slaves, so the lack of precision was immaterial.

====Feeling the Mithril-coat====
The [[Mithril-coat]] that Bilbo gives Frodo is "almost as supple as linen". However, when Bilbo slaps Frodo on the back after giving him the coat, he says, "''Ow!... You are too hard now to slap''!"<ref name="Ring">{{FR|II3}}</ref>
;Explanation:Perhaps Bilbo is joking. Or perhaps the mail tenses in response to an impact, similar to non-Newtonian fluids solidifying under stress. It's fairly common in Middle-earth for works of master craftsmanship to have some "magical" attributes, and given the cost of mithril, it's a safe bet that only the best smiths in Erebor would have undertaken such a project. Of all of the magical abilities one might want for a coat of nigh-unbreakable chain mail, the ability to turn solid when struck while being as soft as cloth at all other times would be high on the list.

====Galadriel's mind-reading====
[[Galadriel]] tells Frodo and Sam that she knows Sauron's thoughts that concern the Elves.<ref name="Mirror">{{FR|II7}}</ref> It seems strange that they don't ask her whether she has any information they might find useful and she doesn't offer them any. Also, she doesn't seem to have known that [[Saruman]] had switched to Sauron's side nineteen years earlier, though it must have been in Sauron's thoughts and the defection of a member of the [[White Council]] seems to concern the Elves. At least, she didn't warn Gandalf in the messages he got from [[Lothlórien|Lóthlorien]] after reading the [[Scroll of Isildur]], the year before he trustingly entered [[Orthanc]].<ref name="CofE" /> (Also, when Aragorn was serving in Gondor under the name [[Thorongil]], he "often warned [[Ecthelion II|Ecthelion]] not to put trust in Saruman".<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref> It's strange that he knew not to trust Saruman but Gandalf didn't.)
;Explanation:Conceivably Galadriel gained the ability to read Sauron's mind sometime after the messages went to Gandalf.

====Galadriel's role====
Galadriel tells [[Fellowship of the Ring|The Fellowship]], "I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, or in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be."<ref>{{FR|I6}}</ref> Later she tells Frodo, "I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor."<ref name="Mirror" /> However, the rhyme she sends Aragorn advises a specific course: the [[Grey Company]] should come out of [[Rivendell]], and Aragorn should take the [[Paths of the Dead]].<ref>{{TT|III5}}</ref> Likewise [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]] conclude that Galadriel sent the message to the Grey Company telling them to join Aragorn in [[Rohan]]; this seems to be "contriving" and "choosing between one course and another". Incidentally, it is odd that the Grey Company got this message without knowing who it was from.<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Passing of the Grey Company]]"</ref>
;Explanation:One could imagine that someone else ([[Celeborn]]?) made the decisions and Galadriel only sent the messages; Legolas and Gimli may have erred in thinking she was the source. Alternatively, it is conceivable that Galadriel's words to the Fellowship were calculated to have a desired impact, even though at face value they seemed to be of no use.

====The origin of orcs====
Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that [[Morgoth]] made trolls and orcs.<ref>{{TT|III4}}. "But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves."</ref> However, Frodo says to Sam, "''The [[Shadow]] that bred them [Orcs] can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined and twisted them''."<ref>{{RK|VI1}}</ref>
;Explanation:Tolkien went through several attempts to explain [[Orcs/Origin|the origin of orcs]] and never stated a definitive answer. However, when he addressed this point in "[[Letter 153]]", he described Treebeard as "not one of the Wise", and he quoted and endorsed Frodo's line above.

====Tales of hobbits====
Pippin tells [[Théoden]], "I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits."<ref name="Isengard" /> But hobbits live in [[Bree]], Tom Bombadil knows many stories about hobbits, one would think the [[Rangers of the North|Rangers]] (who guard [[The Shire]] and Bree) and the Elves of Rivendell (where Bilbo has been living) would know some, and the Elves of Lórien have at least heard of hobbits.<ref>{{FR|II6}}, "We had not heard of—hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year...."</ref>
;Explanation:Pippin has just woken up from a nap, after a lunch that included wine, and is talking to a king for the first time in his life; he may not be thinking clearly. Alternatively, Pippin is the most glib and smooth or courtly of the hobbits in the Fellowship, and he may have exaggerated to flatter the king, even without realizing he was doing it.

====The peril of deep arts====
In connection with the ''[[Palantíri|palantír]]'' of Orthanc, Gandalf observes to Pippin, "''Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves.''"<ref name="Palantir">{{TT|III11}}</ref> However, never in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' or ''The Lord of the Rings'' does he warn [[Thorin]] or the hobbits against using elvish swords, which glow in the presence of orcs, or [[Barrow-blades|daggers from the barrow]], which are especially effective against Ringwraiths. He returns the [[Phial of Galadriel]] to Frodo and [[Gifts of Galadriel|Galadriel's box of earth]] to Sam without any warnings. Also, there is no apparent danger in characters' using other products of elven arts (cloaks, ''[[hithlain]]'' ropes, ''[[lembas]]'').
;Explanation:Maybe the ''palantíri'' are "devices" in a sense in which the other things named are not.

:Furthermore, it's possible that Gandalf was only attempting to discourage Pippin's curiosity, worrying that it could lead to another dangerous situation like that with the ''palantír''.

====The eyes in Orthanc====
When Aragorn tells Gimli and Legolas that he's confronted Sauron in the ''palantír'', he says that Sauron had not previously known Aragorn was alive. In explanation, he adds, "''The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Théoden''".<ref>{{RK|V2}}</ref> But [[Gríma|Wormtongue]] knew that Aragorn claimed to be Isildur's heir, as Gandalf points out to Pippin.<ref name="Palantir" /> Thus whether Wormtongue recognized Aragorn from Orthanc doesn't matter to Sauron's knowledge of Aragorn's existence. (What Aragorn should have deduced was that either Wormtongue never told Saruman about him, or Saruman didn't reveal the knowledge, whether to Sauron through the ''palantír'' or to the Nazgûl who came to demand Saruman's supposed captive hobbit. (The latter is what Gandalf tells Pippin he fears.)

====[[Mouth of Sauron]] and "Sauron the Great"====
[[Aragorn]] mentions that the name "[[Sauron]]" (meaning "Abominable") is the name used by his enemies, and Sauron does not permit it to be pronounced.<ref>{{TT|III1}}</ref> Therefore it would be problematic, if not logically impossible, for the Ringwraiths to think "Sauron would deal with them later" as they rode away from [[Crickhollow]],<ref>{{FR|I11}}</ref> for the messenger to [[Dáin Ironfoot|Dáin]] to refer to his master as "the Lord Sauron the Great," as Aragorn had heard at the Council of Elrond,<ref name="CofE" /> and for a servant of Sauron to say, "''I am the [[Mouth of Sauron]].''"<ref>{{RK|V10}}</ref>
;Explanation:It could be that Aragorn was mistaken, perhaps thinking of the time before Sauron had declared himself. Another possibility is that the "Mouth" used a different name or title, perhaps in the Black Speech, and Frodo or the translator Tolkien "translated" it as Sauron to clarify it for readers. As the Ringwraiths' thoughts would not have been known to anyone else, the passage presenting those thoughts must have been invented by Frodo or the translator Tolkien, who would be responsible for the choice of "Sauron" there. A similar possibility is that despite Aragorn's blanket statement, Sauron sometimes allowed his servants to use the name in communicating with others who used it. As many of his enemies only knew his "true" name as Sauron, it would also allow him to keep his true names and aliases hidden from them, as well as allow them to immediately recognize whom his servants were referring to.

====Hewing Orcs====
At [[Helm's Deep]], [[Gimli]] tells Éomer that he had "hewn naught but wood since I left Moria," forgetting that he [[Breaking of the Fellowship|fought Orcs]] not long before.
;Explanation:This discrepancy was noted by [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', where they explained that they left it unchanged in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]] because correcting it was impossible, as it would require rewriting the dialogue.<ref name="comp" />{{rp|p. xliv}} [[Amon Hen]] was a week before the Battle of the Hornburg; even for a stout Dwarven warrior, lamenting not killing an Orc for that short period would make him look too bloodthirsty. However, it is possible to interpret Gimli as being scornful towards his latest opponents, deliberately meaning that they were no better than "wood."

==Facts==
====[[Doors of Durin]]====
''[[Moria]]'' translates as "Black Pit" or "Black Chasm" in [[Sindarin]], and the name was said to have been given by the [[Elves]] "without love,"<ref name="Translation">{{App|Translation}}, p. 1137, "Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar... were not dwellers in such places of choice"</ref> possibly indicating that it was a derogatory description. Furthermore, ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' states that [[Khazad-dûm]] was "afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria,"<ref>{{S|Sindar}}</ref> suggesting the name was not widely used until after [[Durin's Bane]] took over the city and it was overrun by [[Orcs]]. It is therefore a paradox why that name appears on the [[Doors of Durin]] (''Ennyn Durin Aran Moria''), made in the [[Second Age]], and with the consent of the [[Dwarves]].
;Explanation:There are many possible explanations to this apparent inconsistency.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, pp. 281-2</ref> The name may have been given by the Elves in reference to Moria's inherent darkness from being underground (in contrast with their love for "green earth and the lights of heaven"), and therefore was in use before Moria's fall to the [[Balrog]].<ref name="Translation" /> There is also no clear evidence that the Dwarves found this name to be offensive, and they may have had no objection to its use on the doors. Some "external" explanations suggest that since the translated names [[Durin (disambiguation)|Durin]] and [[Narvi]] are seen in the inscription, ''Moria'' may also be a "translated" name.

====Eagles====
One of the best-known alleged plot holes is why the [[Eagles]] came to carry [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] and [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]] back from [[Mount Doom]] but did not help them to fly the [[the One Ring|One Ring]] there, or at least help them at other points in their journey such as the crossing of the [[Misty Mountains]]. It is particularly hard to understand why this idea was not proposed in the [[Council of Elrond]].
;Explanation:This question is discussed in detail in [[Eagles#Flying the Ring to Mount Doom|the article on the Eagles]], which gives several explanations.

:In general the explanations for not flying the Ring to Mount Doom are better than those for the Fellowship's not at least trying to have the Eagles fly them across the Misty Mountains.

====Distances====
The distances of the Dwarves' travel to [[Rivendell]] in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' seem to have different proportions than those in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Tolkien tried to reconcile the ''Hobbit'' description with the scale of the ''LotR'' map but couldn't find an appropriate solution.<ref>{{HM|RS}} p. 204</ref>

While Frodo and his companions needed 28 days from [[Hobbiton]] to [[Rivendell]] (10.7 miles/day),<ref name="atlas">[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]''</ref> [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] calculated that Bilbo and [[Thorin and Company]] needed 38 days (17.5 miles/day).<ref name="atlas" /> [[Andreas Möhn|Andreas Moehn]] goes further and supposes that Thorin and Co. wanted two weeks from the [[Trollshaws]] till Rivendell (a distance which [[Glorfindel]] covered in two days), resulting in c. 48 days total.<ref name="lalaith">http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref>
;Explanation:The distances and days are not described in the narrative and can be measured only by references such as the moon phases and other fan calculations; therefore there can be a margin of miscalculation.

:In general, perhaps the Dwarves are by nature slower travelers than Men and/or Hobbits. In ''[[The Departure of Boromir]]'' it is seen that [[Gimli]] had a problem keeping pace with [[Aragorn]] and [[Legolas]].

:The errand of bringing the Ring to Rivendell was much more pressing than the Dwarves'. The dragon was not going anywhere. And Frodo and his companions were hunted down by the [[Nazgûl]].

====Beater and Biter====
The swords [[Glamdring]] and its "mate" [[Orcrist]] are said to have belonged to King [[Turgon]] of the [[First Age]]. They never appeared much in battle (Turgon fought only in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]) and they were witnessed only by the Orcs of [[Beleriand]]. However, in the [[Third Age]] the swords are found in a [[Troll]] hoard in [[Eriador]], and the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] recognize them by their names. The Orcs don't seem to react similarly in the sight of Glamdring in ''The Lord of the Rings'', nor do they seem to recognize [[Narsil]]/[[Andúril]], which is much more "recent".
;Explanation:There can be several theories and explanations of how the swords and even their reputations reach [[Eriador]]. However, the narrative of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' doesn't justify their significance to the extent of being remembered and recognized by the Goblins of the Third Age, even by tradition.

====The elf-king's favorite gems====
The narration of ''The Hobbit'' says the [[Thranduil|elf-king]]'s favorite gems are "white."<ref>{{H|8}}, "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems...."</ref> However, after the [[Battle of Five Armies]], the narration says, "''To the Elven-king he <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Bard]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> sent the emeralds of [[Girion]], such gems as he most loved''..."<ref>{{H|18}}</ref>
;Explanation:The sentence is somewhat ambiguous: "he" could refer to Bard or Girion instead of the elf-king. However, the elf-king's preference in gems, not the others', would be relevant to Bard's choice of what to give him.

====Thráin and Thorin's settling in the [[Blue Mountains]]====
[[File:Stephen Raw - Middle-earth map (1 of 4).png|250px|thumb|A map of north-west Middle-earth]]
After [[Thráin|Thráin II]] and his followers returned to [[Dunland]] following the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] in {{TA|2799}},
{{Blockquote|they removed and wandered in [[Eriador]], until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the [[Ered Luin]] beyond the [[Lune]].<ref name="AppADurin">{{App|Durin}}</ref>}}
From the point of view of Eriador and the Shire, "beyond the Lune" is north of it.

However, the "Tale of Years" ([[Appendix B]]) states,
{{Blockquote|Thráin and his son Thorin wander westwards. They settle in the South of [[Ered Luin]] beyond [[the Shire]] ({{TA|2802|n}})<ref name="AppThird"/>}}
It is difficult to reconcile the descriptions "beyond the Lune" and "in the south of the [[Blue Mountains|Ered Luin]]."

Other mentions of the Dwarves' homes in the Ered Luin are consistent with both possibilities. "Dwarves dwelt in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the [[Gulf of Lune]], where they have mines that are still in use."<ref name="AppEriador" />

"Especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune" implies that a smaller number of Dwarves lived north of the Gulf, as shown in two other quotations. In a parenthetical comment made in "Of Dwarves and Men" in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', Tolkien indicated that beyond the inflow of the [[Little Lune]] was 'Dwarf territory'.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}, p. 313</ref> Likewise in Appendix A: [[Arvedui]], the last king of [[Arthedain]], "hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains".<ref name="AppEriador" />

====Westron and English====
In a few places, Tolkien might be thought to have forgotten that the English, including [[Old English]], in ''The Lord of the Rings'' is supposed to be translated from [[Westron]] and related languages. Some of these are easily explained, and Tolkien explained the similarity between the Sindarin ''[[Baranduin]]'' and the English "Brandywine".<ref>{{App|Translation}} "Brandywine" is somewhat similar in both sound and meaning to the hobbits' Westron nickname for the river, ''Bralda-him'' meaning 'heady ale'.</ref> The most difficult is the comment, "This was ''[[Orthanc]]'', the citadel of [[Saruman]], the name of which had (by design or chance) a twofold meaning; for in the Elvish speech ''orthanc'' signifies Mount Fang, but in the language of the Mark of old ''the Cunning Mind''."<ref name="Isengard" /> However, ''orthanc'' means "cunning" not in [[Rohanese]] but in Old English, which Tolkien used to translate Rohanese.
;Explanation:By a further coincidence, the unattested name for ''Orthanc'' in Rohanese could also be "Orthanc" and mean "cunning mind".

====Chronology====
=====When Bilbo departed=====
In the chapter ''[[Roast Mutton]]'', [[Thorin and Company]] depart from the ''[[Green Dragon]]'' "one fine morning just before May." In the later written and published "[[The Quest of Erebor]]", part of "[[Unfinished Tales]]", the author established that the day of departure was [[27 April]].<ref>{{UT|Quest}}</ref> However, the chapter ''[[Flies and Spiders]]'' refers to what has happened "since they started their journey that May morning long ago."
;Explanation:The fifth month of the [[Shire Calendar]], Thrimidge, falls between 22 April to 21 May. By the human calendar, the journey would have started just before May; but by the hobbit calendar, the journey started during Thrimidge. The second reference to May could have been a "translation error," where "Thrimidge" was translated as "May" regardless of the actual date.

=====[[White Council]] during the [[Watchful Peace]]=====
According to [[Appendix A]], "The Stewards", during the [[Watchful Peace]] "''Sauron withdrew before the power of the [[White Council]] and the Ringwraiths remained hidden in Morgul Vale''". However the Watchful Peace ended in {{TA|2460}}, three years before the White Council was formed. Thus according to [[Robert Foster]], the reference to the Council is "incorrect".<ref>[[Robert Foster]] (2001) ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth|The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth: From The Hobbit through The Lord of the Rings and Beyond]]''. Random House Digital, [http://books.google.com/books?id=GNGJvGi849UC&pg=PA538 p. 538].</ref>
;Explanation:Foster suggests that the reference to the "White Council" is rather to "the [[Wise]]" in general.

=====Moon phases=====
Tolkien was particularly careful about the phases of the [[Moon]] in the ''The Lord of the Rings''. Yet some errors did elude him. See for example [[13 January|January 13]], [[16 January|January 16]], [[22 February|February 22]], [[22 September|September 22]].

In general, it is possible that Tolkien consulted a modern almanac to model the moon phases, and also possible that he confused the meanings of "New Moon": the astronomical (the moment when the moon is darkest) and the colloquial (appearance of the new crescent moon).<ref>http://shire-reckoning.com/moon.html</ref>

Another error appears in ''The Hobbit'': [[Bard|Bard I]] killed [[Smaug]] "at the rising of the moon"<ref>{{H|15}}</ref> when "the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his [Smaug's] great wings... the waxing moon rose higher and higher". Also the [[thrush]] tells Bard, "''Wait! Wait!... The Moon is rising.''" <ref>{{H|14}}</ref> However, according to astronomy a waxing moon rises only in the morning, after the sun. We can be certain the moon was waxing because this occurs the day after [[Durin's Day]], which is the first day in the last month of autumn that the new moon is visible together with the sun.<ref name="lalaith" />
;Explanation:One might imagine that Bard needed to wait for the moon to fall below a cloudbank and that the tradition is corrupt.<ref name="lalaith" />

=====[[Shadow over Hollin]]=====
While the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] traverses [[Hollin]], they see and feel a flying shadow over them.<ref name="Ring" /> Since no other such phenomena occur, when the [[Fell Beast]]s are introduced, the reader makes such a connection. However [[Grishnakh]] later tells [[Uglúk]] that Sauron was not yet permitting the Nazgûl to traverse to the west side of the [[Anduin]],<ref>{{TT|III3}}</ref> and still later Gandalf says, "''The Nazgûl have crossed the River!''" as if it were something new.<ref name="Palantir" />
;Explanation:Possibly a Nazgûl got lost or disobeyed orders and prematurely crossed the [[Anduin]]. Or possibly the fellowship noticed something unexplained and unrelated to the Fell Beasts. Perhaps it was some feeling of foreboding as they would eventually have to go to Moria. It could also be a sort of metaphor of Sauron observing them, as often throughout the books Sauron's gaze is compared to a heavy shadow bearing down on what it sees. Another possibility is that it was a flock of ''[[crebain]]'' (crows) sent by Saruman flying overhead.

=====Nights in Lórien=====
The surviving members of the Company spend their first night in [[Lothlórien|Lórien]] in a "flet" in a tree. On their second night, "they rested and slept without fear on the ground".<ref>{{FR|II6}}</ref> On their third night, they sleep on the ground again, in a pavilion in [[Caras Galadon]]. "For a little while the travellers talked of their night before in the tree-tops, and of their day's journey..." And Aragorn says, "''But tonight I shall sleep without fear for the first time since I left Rivendell.''"<ref name="Mirror" /> The night in the tree-tops was not the night before, and Aragorn did sleep without fear on the previous night, so the second night appears to be forgotten.
;Explanation:In Lórien at least some members of the Fellowship lose track of the flow of time. Shortly after Aragorn's remark, the narration says, "They remained some days in Lothlórien, so far as they could tell or remember." Also, after leaving Lórien, Sam feels sure they had not spent a whole month there, despite the evidence of the phase of the moon, and Frodo thinks while in Lórien they were in the past and mentions that he doesn't remember seeing the moon while there. However, Legolas assures him that only their perception of time was changed, and Aragorn points out that the time had indeed been a month.<ref>{{FR|II9}}</ref> Aragorn's forgetting his night without fear could be an effect of this changed sense of time. The phrase in the narration "the night before in the tree-tops" is harder to explain within the story, as the narration does include the intervening night, but the inconspicuous contradiction might be deliberate foreshadowing of what the Company will experience.

=====Éomer and Éowyn after Aragorn's coronation=====
In the chapter ''[[The Steward and the King]]'', it is stated: "So the glad days passed; and on the eighth day of May the Riders of Rohan made ready, and rode off by the North-way, and with them went the sons of Elrond. All the road was lined with people to do them honour and praise them, from the Gate of the City to the walls of the [[Pelennor Fields|Pelennor]]."<ref name="SaK">{{RK|VI5}}</ref> However, in ''[[Appendix B]]'' of some editions of the novel<ref>http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-1958.html</ref> there is the entry: "May 8 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) Éomer and Éowyn depart '''from''' Rohan with the sons of Elrond".<ref name="AppB4">{{App|Chief}}</ref> (Emphasis added.)

=====The sapling's discovery=====
In the text of ''[[The Return of the King]]'' it is stated: "And Aragorn planted the new tree in the court by the fountain, and swiftly and gladly it began to grow; and when the month of June entered in it was laden with blossom".<ref name="SaK" /> The wording of this sentence suggests that Aragorn planted the sapling ''before'' June began. However, in ''Appendix B'' there is the entry: "June 25 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) King Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree",<ref name="AppB4" /> in which case it could not have blossomed until late in the month.

=====Walda's death=====
King [[Walda]]'s death date is recorded in [[Appendix A]] as [[Third Age 2851]] but in [[Appendix B]] as [[Third Age 2861]].

==Later corrected==
Several errors were simply remnants of Tolkien's earlier writings, which later escaped his attention when revising the book. Some of them have been corrected in the later editions of ''The Lord of the Rings'' and ''The Hobbit''.

====Bridle and headstall====
The first edition referred to the "bridle and bit" of [[Glorfindel]]'s horse, [[Asfaloth]].<ref name="Flight" /> [[Rhona Beare]] wrote to Tolkien asking how that was possible when elves don't use bridles. Tolkien replied in [[Letter 211]] that he'd written "bridle and bit" before thinking about how elves ride, and he changed it to "headstall" in the second edition. However, a later mention of Asfaloth's bridle remained in the chapter.<ref>"His hand left the bridle and gripped the hilt of his sword, and with a red flash he drew it."</ref>

====Durin's Day====
The original text of ''The Hobbit'' described [[Durin's Day]] as occurring on "the first day of the last moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|3}}</ref> the "first moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|4}}</ref> and "the last week of autumn".<ref>{{H|11}}</ref> In the [[1995]] edition the mention in Chapter 4 was revised to place the day at the end of autumn, in line with the other two mentions.<ref>Chester N. Scoville, "''The Hobbit''" in ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment]]'' (2007), Michael D.C. Drout, ed., Taylor and Francis, p. 279</ref>

====Bandobras' parentage====
The "[[Prologue Concerning Hobbits, and other matters|Prologue]]" mentions that [[Bandobras Took]] was the son (not grandson) of [[Isengrim Took II]]. This has been corrected in the 50th Anniversary edition.

====Sam's birth====
In the second edition of ''The Lord of the Rings'', [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s year of birth was added to ''[[Appendix B|The Tale of Years]]'' as [[Third Age 2963]]. This contradicts both a later entry in ''The Tale of Years'' and the [[Appendix C]] given as [[Third Age 2980]].<ref>[[Wayne G. Hammond]], [[Christina Scull]], ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', page 716</ref>

====Gandalf's letter====
The letter Gandalf leaves for Frodo at the ''[[Prancing Pony]]'' is dated "[[Midyear's Day]], Shire Year, 1418."<ref name="Strider">{{FR|I10}}</ref> However, in editions published during Tolkien's lifetime, Appendix B says that on June 29, "Gandalf meets [[Radagast]]." Then Gandalf says he left [[Bree]] at dawn of the following day,<ref name="CofE" /> which would be June 30, two days before Midyear's Day (as 1 [[Lithe]] comes between).
;Explanation:Perhaps Gandalf, who was in a hurry and had been traveling for days, made the error. However, the entry in Appendix B for June 29, 3018, has been deleted from the 50th Anniversary Edition.

====Crossing Rohan inconspicuously====
As they ride away from [[Isengard]], Gandalf tells Merry that the [[Eye of Sauron|Lidless Eye]] will be looking toward Rohan, so "''He [Théoden] will ride from there [Helm's Deep] to Dunharrow by paths among the hills. From now on no more than two or three together are to go openly over the land, by day or night, when it can be avoided."''<ref name="Palantir" /> However, later that night, after Pippin looks into the ''palantír'' and Gandalf says they must move from the spot, Théoden says he will go in a group of twelve, and Gandalf agrees.<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "'I will keep Éomer and ten Riders,' said the king. 'They shall ride with me at early day. The rest may go with Aragorn and ride as soon as they have a mind.' 'As you will,' said Gandalf."</ref> Then when the trip to Helm's Deep starts, the number has increased to twenty-six, and Aragorn goes with Théoden.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "Soon all were ready to depart: twenty-four horses, with Gimli behind Legolas, and Merry in front of Aragorn."</ref> The trip from Helm's Deep to Dunharrow has a group of five hundred.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "A thousand spears had indeed already ridden away at night, but still there would be some five hundred more to go with the king."</ref> They do ride through the hills, as Gandalf had said. "Most of the time" they're in a group bigger than three.<ref>{{RK|V3}}, "Sometimes where the way was broader he [Merry] had ridden at the king's side, not noticing that many of the Riders smiled to see the two together: the hobbit on his little shaggy grey pony, and the Lord of Rohan on his great white horse. [...] But most of the time, especially on the last day, Merry had ridden by himself just behind the king, saying nothing, and trying to understand the slow sonorous speech of Rohan that he heard the men behind him using."</ref>
;Explanation:The Fiftieth Anniversary Edition contains a clarifying addition to contextualize the order: "He will ride from there '''with many men''' to Dunharrow by paths among the hills." (Emphasis added.) This may suggest that "by paths among the hills" is in opposition to "openly over the land". So long as the large groups traveled by the hills, they were not conspicuous to the Lidless Eye.

====Knowledge of the ''Palantíri''====
After Gandalf learns that the crystal ball he has recovered is the ''[[palantír]]'' of [[Orthanc]], he tells [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] the [[White Council]] didn't know any of the ''palantíri'' (presumably those of [[Gondor]]) survived disaster in Gondor (presumably the [[Kin-strife]]).<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "It was not known to us that any of the ''palantíri'' had escaped the ruin of Gondor."</ref> However, after [[Denethor]] reveals his ''palantír'', Gandalf says in earlier editions, "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long have I known that here in the White Tower, as at Orthanc, one of the Seven Stones was preserved."<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Pyre of Denethor]]"</ref>
;Explanation:Gandalf could have learned about the two ''palantíri'' by himself, after the last time the White Council met (66 years earlier), or could have been concealing his knowledge so as to keep secret his source for this information.

:However, in the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition, the sentence was revised to read, "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, '''long ago I guessed''' that here in the White Tower, one at least of the Seven Seeing Stones was preserved." (Emphasis added.)

====Addition of the Westmarch (and Buckland) to the Shire====
In early editions, the "Prologue" to ''The Lord of the Rings'' contained the sentence "Outside the [[Farthing]]s were the East and West Marches: the [[Buckland]] and the [[Westmarch]] added to the Shire in {{SR|1462}}."<ref name="OldPrologue" /> That had two inconsistencies with other parts of the text. First, the "Tale of Years" dates the event to {{SR|1452}}.<ref name="AppLater">{{App|Later}}</ref> Second, various points indicate that Buckland was part of the Shire. The clearest may be Merry's comment to the other hobbits, when they have gone through the tunnel under the [[High Hay]] from Buckland into the [[Old Forest]], that they have left the Shire.<ref>{{FR|I6}}, "'There!' said Merry. 'You have left the Shire, and are now outside, and on the edge of the Old Forest.'"</ref>
;Explanation:In the 50th Anniversary Edition, the sentence was changed to "Outside the Farthings were the East and West Marches: the Buckland; and the Westmarch added to the Shire in S.R. 1452." In addition to the correction of the date, the semicolon after "Buckland" indicates that Buckland was not added to the Shire after the War of the Ring, making the sentence consistent with the idea that it was already part of the Shire.<ref name="NewPrologue">{{FR|Prologue|50}}</ref>

====Mirror of Galadriel====
In editions prior to the 50th Anniversary Edition, the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]] mentions that Frodo and Sam looked into the [[Mirror of Galadriel]] on [[14 February]]. However it is clear from the narrative that this occurred ''one day'' before departure on [[16 February]], not ''two''. [[Wayne G. Hammond|Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull|Scull]] decided to fix the Tale of Years so that the Mirror of Galadriel sequence happened on 15 February.

==From the publishers==
====Nameless Pass as an alternative name for Cirith Ungol in the index====
The index entry for Cirith Ungol has Nameless Pass as an (alternative) name in brackets, and the index entry for Nameless Pass has "see Cirith Ungol" after it in the following e-book editions:
*The Lord of the Rings (i.e. The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King together in one e-book) published by HarperCollinsPublishers 2005 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN 978-0-007-32259-6
*The Return of the King, J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Part 3 published by HarperCollins Publishers 2008 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN 978-0-007-32255-8
The description of the landscape below seen by Frodo from the winding stairs in the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' and the description of the landscape below seen by Sam from the pass of Cirith Ungol contradict that the Nameless Pass was an alternative name for the Pass of Cirith Ungol. In the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' Frodo from above on the winding stair sees the wraith-road running from the dead city in a great revine at the head of the Morgul Valley to the "Nameless Pass" that is also referred to as the "main pass."

In the chapter ''The Tower of Cirith Ungol'' Sam sees a broad road running from the Tower of Cirith Ungol down to join the road that came over the Morgul Pass. "The dead city" seems to be an alternative name for Minas Morgul. "Wraith-road" seems to be an alternative name for the Morgul-road.

Frodo can see the road that runs from Minas Morgul in the great ravine at the head of the Morgul Vale to the Nameless Pass from his observation point high up on the winding stair that leads to the tunnel and then on to the pass of Cirith Ungol. Since the road leads from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and winds down to join the road that came from the Morgul Pass, then Cirith Ungol must be higher up on the left side of the Nameless Pass, and the Nameless Pass cannot be the same as the Pass of Cirith Ungol. Since no other pass is mentioned in the landscape, the "Nameless Pass" must be the Morgul Pass (also referred to as the "main pass"), and Cirith Ungol must be the pass that is also referred to as the "high pass."

====HarperCollins 2005 EPub Edition of March 2009====
The entry that King Argeleb I was slain in battle in appendix B The Third Age is erroneously dated with the year 1977 instead of the year 1356 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. As a consequence the following entries up to and including the entry that many Periannath migrate from Bree erroneously have the date from the entry that immediately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Corsairs ravage Pelargir and slay King Minardil is erroneously dated with the year 1601 instead of the year 1634 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The year 1601 is the year for the entry that is two entries above this entry.

The entry that the Great Plague devastates Gondor is erroneously dated with the year 1634 instead of the year 1636 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The following entries up to and including the entry that Frumgar leads the Éothéod into the North also erroneously have the date from the entry that immeditately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Nazgûl issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2002 instead of the year 2000 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry for the fall of Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2043 instead of the year 2002 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that King Eärnur becomes King of Gondor and is challenged by the Witch-king is erroneously dated with the year 2000 instead of the year 2043 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

{{References}}
[[Category:Debates]]

Spiders

2025-09-06T03:35:37Z

Spearwielder: Take out solifuge (unless somebody has evidence that they were called tarantulas in South Africa at the time), take out statement that Shelob is clearly described as stinging, add beak and bite.

{{rewrite}}
{{race infobox
| name=Spiders
| image = John Howe - Spiders of Mirkwood.jpg
| caption="Spiders of Mirkwood" by [[John Howe]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| origin=
| location=[[Avathar]], [[Ered Gorgoroth]], [[Nan Dungortheb]], [[Torech Ungol]], [[Ephel Dúath]], [[Eastern hills]], [[Dol Guldur]], and [[Mirkwood]]
| affiliation=[[Ungoliant]]
| rivalry=
| language=[[Westron]]
| people="''Lesser broods''" and "''spiders of Nan Dungortheb''"
| members="''Miserable mates''" and [[Shelob]]
| lifespan=
| distinctions=
| height=
| hair=
| skin=Black or grey
| clothing=
| weapons=
| gallery=spiders
}}

The '''Spiders''' were eight-legged creatures that captured their prey in intricate webs. Many spiders of [[Middle-earth]] reached a colossal size.

==History==
There was a sinister side to the spiders of Middle-earth that entered it with the monstrous [[Ungoliant]] in the years before the [[First Age]]. A gigantic creature of spider-shape, it was she who destroyed the [[Two Trees of Valinor|Two Trees]] of [[Valinor]] by sucking the light out of them, and escaped with [[Morgoth|Melkor]] into the lands of Middle-earth. There other great spiders already dwelt. Though Ungoliant disappeared into the far south, she left the northern lands infested with her offspring. During the First Age, the mountains of the [[Ered Gorgoroth]] were infested with these monsters, and became a place of dread.

[[Beren]] fought some of the spiders of [[Nan Dungortheb]], possibly [[Shelob]] herself, when he passed through to enter [[Doriath]].<ref>{{TT|Lair}}, p. 723</ref>

The most infamous of Ungoliant's children lived far to the south and east of the Ered Gorgoroth, on the borders of the land of [[Mordor]]. This was [[Shelob]], who haunted a network of tunnels watching the pass of [[Cirith Ungol]], making a living on hapless [[Orcs]] and anyone else who happened to come down the passage. She had offspring of her own, smaller than she but with a cruel intelligence, that spread throughout the [[Ephel Dúath]] and the [[Eastern hills]], spreading as far north as [[Dol Guldur]] and [[Mirkwood]]. The [[Sauron|return of the Necromancer]] seemed to have emboldened the spiders' hungry tendencies. It was creatures like these that [[Bilbo Baggins]] encountered in ''[[The Hobbit]]'', and after fighting them he gave his sword its name [[Sting]].

Tolkien says of Shelob, "Most '''like''' a spider she was," [emphasis added], and the offspring of Ungoliant differed from normal spiders in respects beyond their enormous size. Bilbo sees the Mirkwood spiders' eyes as "Insect eyes,"<ref>{{H|8}}</ref> and Shelob's eyes are "clustered" and "many-windowed", with "a thousand facets", like insects' compound eyes.<ref name="TT|IV9">{{TT|IV9}}</ref> However, normal spiders do not have compound eyes. Tolkien may not have been over-concerned with the difference between spiders and insects, as in the same chapter of ''The Hobbit'' he refers to spiders as "hunting and spinning insects". Another difference is that when spiders grow, they moult their skins, but Shelob's hide was "ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth."<ref name="Rateliff">John Rateliff. 2007. ''The History of the Hobbit: Mr. Baggins'', volume 1. Harper-Collins, p. 322</ref> Yet another difference is that Shelob has a "beak drabbling a spittle of venom,"<ref>{{TT|IV10}}</ref> but normal spiders don't have beaks.

Tolkien never depicts the venomous attack of his giant spiders. He repeatedly describes Shelob as "stinging" and having a "sting".<ref name="TT|IV9" /><ref>{{TT|IV10}}</ref><ref>{{RK|VI9}}</ref> That has been taken to mean a sting like that of a wasp or a scorpion, which normal spiders do not have.<ref name="Rateliff" /> However, once the narration mentions her "bite",<ref>{{TT|IV10}} "...this time to crush and sting to death, no little bite of poison to still the struggling of her meat".</ref> and in the quotation from "Letter 163" in the "Inspiration" section below, Tolkien used the verb "sting" in the rare sense of a spider's envenomation. Possibly he thought of Shelob as biting, or he did not want to be specific about what his spiders did.

==Other names==
In [[Sindarin]], the word for "spider" is '''''ungol'''''.<ref name="UI">{{HM|UI}}, p. 490</ref> It is found in such names as [[Shelob's Lair|Torech Ungol]], [[Ungoliant#Etymology|Ungoliant]], and [[Cirith Ungol]].

In [[Gnomish]], one of [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s early conceptions of an [[Elvish|Elven]] language, the word for "spider" is ''cing'' or ''cingwin'' (a struck-out word was ''gung''). A deleted [[Qenya]] word for "spider" was ''ung-we''.<ref>{{PE|11}}, pp. 26, 43</ref>

In a [[Old fat spider spinning in a tree!|song]], [[Bilbo Baggins]] taunted the spiders of [[Mirkwood]] with the name "Attercop" which the spiders found insulting.<ref>{{cite DTP|H 08.096}}</ref> "Attercop" is an obsolete English word for spider, and can figuratively mean a malignant, ill-natured person.

==Inspiration==
Tolkien made inconsistent comments on his feelings about spiders. In a letter to [[W. H. Auden]] (quoted more completely below), he wrote, "I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them. I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!"

However, in an interview with [[Jan Broberg]] in 1961, Tolkien said, as translated by John-Henri Holmberg, "I don't like spiders. It's not a pathological fear, but I rather won't have anything to do with them."<ref>Quoted by {{webcite|author=[[Christina Scull]] and [[Wayne G. Hammond]]|articlename=Addenda and Corrigenda to ''The J. R. R. Tolkien Companion and Guide'' (2006), Vol. 2: Reader's Guide: Arranged by Date|dated=Dec. 23, 2010|articleurl=https://www.hammondandscull.com/addenda/guide_by_date.html|website=hammondandscull.com}}. The Swedish version is "Jag tycker inte om spindlar. Det är ingen patologisk skräck, men jag vill helst inte ha med dem in att göra." "I would rather not" might be closer to what Tolkien said in English.</ref>

Likewise the writer Richard Lupoff asked Tolkien whether the giant spiders in Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom books had inspired Shelob, and Tolkien replied in a [[Letter to Richard Lupoff|letter]]:

{{quote|Source hunting is a great entertainment but I myself do not find it particularly useful. I did read many of Edgar Rice Burroughs' earlier works, but I developed a dislike for his Tarzan even greater than '''my distaste for spiders'''. Spiders I had met long before Burroughs began to write, and I do not think he is in any way responsible for Shelob. At any rate I retain no memory of the Siths or the Apt.|[[Edgar Rice Burroughs: Master of Adventure]]}}

Tolkien was bitten by a spider that he called a tarantula (often said to be a baboon spider, an African member of the tarantula family) when he was a small boy in South Africa. Many writers have suggested that the incident underlies the horrifying and deadly giant spiders in ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', ''[[The Hobbit]]'', and ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.<ref name="Horne">Mark Horne. 2011. ''J. R. R. Tolkien''. Thomas Nelson Publishers, p. 2</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Emily Asher-Perrin
|articleurl=https://www.tor.com/2016/11/04/we-can-probably-blame-the-tarantula-that-bit-j-r-r-tolkien-for-most-giant-spiders-in-fantasy|articlename=We Can Probably Blame the Tarantula that Bit J. R. R. Tolkien for Most of the Spiders in Fantasy|dated=Nov. 4, 2016|website=Tor.com|accessed=March 22, 2016}}</ref>
Tolkien saw no reason to accept that explanation, and he specifically said that his purpose in putting spiders into ''The Hobbit'' was to scare his son Michael, who had a fear of them. But some commentators have avoided committing themselves to saying the analysis must be false,<ref name="Horne" /><ref>Deborah Webster Rogers; Ivor I. Rogers. 1980. ''J. R. R. Tolkien''. "Tolkien had been bitten by a tarantula in South Africa, and Michael had a horror of spiders, as do many people; so the author could be drawing on either personal or public feeling in his portrayal of arachnids."</ref> as seen also in the quotation from Humphrey Carpenter's biography below, and Tolkien did not commit himself either.

{{quote|...when Ronald [Tolkien] was beginning to walk, he stumbled on a tarantula. It bit him, and he ran in terror across the garden until the nurse snatched him up and sucked out the poison. When he grew up he could remember a hot day and running in fear through long, dead grass, '''but the memory of the tarantula itself faded, and he said that the incident left him with no especial dislike of spiders.''' Nevertheless, he wrote more than once of monstrous spiders with venomous bites.|''[[J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography]]''}}

{{quote|I knew that the way [for Frodo, Sam, and Gollum] was guarded by a Spider. And if that has anything to do with my being stung by a tarantula when a small child, people are welcome to the notion (supposing the improbable, that any one is interested). I can only say that I remember nothing about it, should not know it if I had not been told; and '''I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them.''' I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!|{{L|163}}}}

Regarding the spiders in ''[[The Hobbit]]'':

{{quote|I put in the spiders largely because this was, you remember, primarily written for my children (at least I had them in mind), and one of my sons [Michael] in particular dislikes spiders with a great intensity. I did it to thoroughly frighten him and it did!|From an interview of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] on January 15, 1957 by Ruth Harshaw for the "Carnival of Books" radio show. (According to ''[[The Annotated Hobbit]]'')}}

{{quote|Throughout his life, Tolkien’s son Michael had what he called “a deep-rooted abhorrence of spiders.”|''[[The Annotated Hobbit]]''}}

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''1980: [[Der Hobbit (1980 German radio series)|''Der Hobbit'' (1980 German radio series)]]:'''
:The spiders of Mirkwood are played by Uta Hallant and Lieselotte Rau.

'''1982: [[The Hobbit (1982 video game)|''The Hobbit (1982 text adventure game)'']]'''
:In the text adventure game, spiders don't make any explicit appearance, although you will see "Pale Bulbous Eyes" as you and your party travel along the [[Old Forest Road]]. If you stay on the road for too long, something will leap down from the trees and kill you.

'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]'':'''
:''See [[Shelob#Portrayal in adaptations|Shelob: Portrayal in adaptations]]''

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Non-player (NPC, computer controlled) spiders are found in a number of areas of Middle-earth. Players can play a spider in the Player-versus-Player (PvP) area of the [[Ettenmoors]] once the player reaches level ten. Spiders in ''The Lord of the Rings Online'' have the ability to root and spit poison from a distance.

:The appearance of spiders vary from zone to zone for NPC spiders and from rank to rank for player controlled spiders. They all look like very large spiders from the size of a cat up to the size of a large elephant.

'''2012-4: [[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' film series]]:'''
:The spiders of Mirkwood are portrayed in the first two films, ''An Unexpected Journey'' and ''The Desolation of Smaug''. In the former, they attack [[Radagast]]'s dwelling in [[Rhosgobel]], but are driven away by him. Radagast discovers that they came from the ruins of [[Dol Guldur]] (implying that they are drawn to the power of [[Sauron|the Necromancer]] lurking there), and deduces that they are descendants of [[Ungoliant]]. In the latter film, their role is faithful to their portrayal in the novel. As in the book, they are capable of speech (although Bilbo is only capable of understanding them while wearing the [[One Ring|Ring]]). When one of the spiders screams about how Bilbo's Elvish blade "stings" it, it is then that Bilbo decides to give his weapon a name.

'''2017: ''[[Middle-earth: Shadow of War]]'':'''
:''See [[Shelob#Portrayal in adaptations|Shelob: Portrayal in adaptations]]''

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of spiders|Images of spiders]]

{{references}}

[[Category:Evil]]
[[Category:Spiders]]

[[de:Spinnen]]
[[fi:Hämähäkit]]

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-09-06T03:04:09Z

Spearwielder:

'''{{PAGENAME}}, welcome!'''

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==Using the "This is a minor edit" checkbox==
Thank you for your interest in Tollien Gateway and for wanting to contribute to improve the pages on Tolkien Gateway. I noticed that you had the "This is a minor edit" checkbox checked on all your edits, so that all your edits in the "Recent changes" list were marked with an "m" as minor edits. If you read the "How to edit a page" page on wikipedia, to which you received a link on the top of this discussion page after you created your user account, you will see that a "check to the "minor edit" box signifies that only superficial differences exist between the version with your edit and the previous version: typo/grammar corrections, fixing a formatting problem, etc. A minor edit is a version that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute." Your edit on the Letter to Arthur Tolkien page was not a minor edit, because it change the age of Tolkien at the time that he wrote the letter and since it is possible that you could have made a mistake in calculating the age, such an edit required a review. Also your edits on the Elven life cycle page and Eagles page were not minor edits, because they were not restricted to typo/grammar corections or fixing a formatting problem. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 07:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

==Edits on the "claimed" Blue Wizards page==
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==Spider stings==

Hi. I started a discussion on the Discord server about your edit to [[Spiders]] that said it's clear that Tolkien meant that Shelob was depicted as stinging Frodo. That's not clear to me at all, so I hope you'll explain it. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 01:08, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

:"Now the miserable creature was right under her, for the moment out of the reach of her sting and of her claws."
:"There she crouched, her shuddering belly splayed upon the ground, the great bows of her legs quivering, as she gathered herself for another spring – this time to crush and sting to death."
:I don't see how this can possibly mean "to bite." It would be a strange choice for Tolkien to pair "bite and claws" instead of "teeth and claws," if that's what he meant, not to mention the action of the scene just doesn't support "bite" at all to me.
:Further, John D. Rateliff explores this "error" in a section describing multiple discrepancies between real spiders and the "spider-like" Shelob, Ungoliant and the spiders of Mirkwood in his *The History of The Hobbit,* where he notes (commenting on Tolkien's recollection of being "stung" by a "tarantula" as a small child):
:"This little bit of autobiography is important because tarantulas do not sting: they bite – a small point, but nevertheless suggestive. Tolkien cannot be faulted for forgetting such a detail, since he was only a toddler when the incident occurred, but its significance is that his account shows that even years after writing The Hobbit he was under the impression that spiders have stings. This strongly suggests that Tolkien’s other departures from spider physiology were simple mistakes, however uncharacteristic, rather than deliberate changes for effect – unlike, say, the Nazgûl’s mounts, where he expressly stated that he was not attempting historical accuracy in his depiction but merely drawing on the ‘semi-scientific mythology of the “Prehistoric”’ as inspiration (JRRT to Rhona Beare, 14th October 1958; Letters p. 282).
:In point of fact, Tolkien could not have been ‘stung by a tarantula’ as a child because these spiders are not native to the Orange Free State or indeed southern Africa at all. Instead, the name is locally applied to solifugae, an aggressive arachnid also known as ‘wind scorpions’, ‘sun-spiders’, or ‘camel spiders’ but in fact neither a spider nor a scorpion but a cousin of both. The true tarantula (L. tarantula) of southern Europe is a type of wolf spider, a free-ranging hunter very like the Mirkwood spider pictured in Tolkien’s halftone of Mirkwood. The name’s most common usage today is through its application in the New World to various large hairy spiders of North, South, and Central America (Theraphosidae), some of which are so large that they can prey upon frogs, birds, and very small mammals (the so-called ‘bird-eating spiders’ and ‘monkey spider’)." [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 04:45, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

::I think Rateliff jumped to a conclusion. It seems just as possible to me that Tolkien didn't know how spiders inject their venom but thought "sting" was an appropriate word for it, or knew they bite but still thought "sting" was an appropriate word, though archaic at the time.

::I agree that Tolkien used "sting" to mean a body part in your example, as well as when he tells Gandalf that he's wounded "with knife, sting, and tooth." But "sting" could mean part of a spider (or "any venomous beest", as I mentioned in the Discord comment), though examples are hard to find. Here's one from ''Towards a Natural History of Serpents'' (1742), by Charles Owen: "I proceed to the Spider, another little venomous Insect, whose forked Tongue or Sting, is very fine and sharp..."

::The second sentence you quoted continues, "no little ''bite'' of poison to still the struggling of her meat; this time to slay and then to rend." (Emphasis added.) That looks very much as if she bites to knock her prey out, though possibly "bite" there is some kind of figure of speech.

::I find the scene very easy to picture with biting. Shelob wants to spring at Sam, knock him down, and bite him, or crush him and then back up and bite him. It's harder to picture with a sting because we don't know where the sting would be. Incidentally, it's odd that Tolkien never describes what his giant spiders do to their prey, which makes me wonder whether he really didn't know what real spiders do.

::So I don't think Tolkien makes it clear at all what Shelob does to Frodo.

::(Irrelevantly to this argument, Rateliff may have jumped to another conclusion. There are in fact members of the family Theraphosidae in South Africa, and they're sometimes called tarantulas though maybe more often baboon spiders. Some are big, though not as big as the biggest South American species, and have painful bites. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpactirinae) [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 14:31, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

::I meant to add that Shelob's appearance is described in considerable detail. The part of her body that's most important to the plot is whatever she poisons Frodo with. Her "beak drabbling a spittle of venom" is mentioned, but nothing about a separate sting, even though Sam gets a back view of her when she flees into her tunnel. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:24, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:::I mean we wouldn't really describe spiders as "insects" today either, as far as the Owen reference. Tolkien also got the "beak" wrong (spiders have chelicerae), and implied that the spiders of Mirkwood have compound eyes, which real spiders do not (as far as that goes tarantulas aren't even "true spiders," but that's getting into the weeds a bit), and he also suggest Shelob doesn't molt, again unlike actual spiders. I'll admit I have no idea if harpactirinae live in what was once the Orange Free State, or did in the late 19th century (and Rateliff may not either).
:::I guess I just don't see why obcure, centuries-old examples of a word need be sought out when there's little to suggest the modern and far more common meaning is out of place. Etymonline suggests "sting" has been mostly limited to stinging insects since the 14th century. [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 02:47, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::::I'd say there are good reasons to consider obsolete senses of "sting". Tolkien uses the word "bite". He describes Shelob's venomous beak and many details not directly relevant to the story, but never describes a stinger. And surely it was well known that spiders bite--better known than that they're not insects--but he used "sting" about the one that bit him. Edit: Also Tolkien used archaisms.
::::In regard to what bit him, I looked things up and by far the best possibility seems to be the Highveld Baboon Spider, ''Harpactira hamiltoni''. [https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/138699614 It has been observed recently in or near Bloemfontein] and it's [https://www.mymonsters.co.za/product/harpactira-hamiltoni/#google_vignette described as "commonly found and seen"]. I think Rateliff's comment should be taken out of the article. The only thing that I see as possibly worth keeping is the suggestion that what bit little Ronald might have been a solifuge, but I'd want independent confirmation that they're locally known as tarantulas. (I don't know whether there are other spiders or spider-like animals in the area that have painful bites.)
::::Another subject: Maybe Shelob's beak, which you pointed out, should go into the article as another example of a difference from real spiders. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 13:10, 20 August 2025 (UTC) [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 13:10, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::I'm not convinced, personally, but I won't make any more edits. [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 01:17, 31 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::It seems probable at least that Tolkien didn't know (or care) a whole lot about the anatomical details of real-life spiders. [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 01:18, 31 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::OK, I'll give it a shot, and of course you should feel feree to continue editing. I agree that Tolkien may well not have known or cared much about how real spiders inject venom—which seems strange, considering that he wrote scenes of horror involving people getting poisoned by giant spiders. (He also may not have cared much about flies, since Frodo and Sam found stinging flies in Mordor.) [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 03:02, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-09-06T03:02:41Z

Spearwielder:

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==Using the "This is a minor edit" checkbox==
Thank you for your interest in Tollien Gateway and for wanting to contribute to improve the pages on Tolkien Gateway. I noticed that you had the "This is a minor edit" checkbox checked on all your edits, so that all your edits in the "Recent changes" list were marked with an "m" as minor edits. If you read the "How to edit a page" page on wikipedia, to which you received a link on the top of this discussion page after you created your user account, you will see that a "check to the "minor edit" box signifies that only superficial differences exist between the version with your edit and the previous version: typo/grammar corrections, fixing a formatting problem, etc. A minor edit is a version that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute." Your edit on the Letter to Arthur Tolkien page was not a minor edit, because it change the age of Tolkien at the time that he wrote the letter and since it is possible that you could have made a mistake in calculating the age, such an edit required a review. Also your edits on the Elven life cycle page and Eagles page were not minor edits, because they were not restricted to typo/grammar corections or fixing a formatting problem. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 07:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

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Your edits on the Blue Wizards page were minor edits. Did you notice the prominent blue box at the top of the Blue Wizard's page, which said that "Akhorahil is currently busy with major revisions to this article. Before editing, discuss your intentions on this article's talk page."? This text was generated by a claimed tage in the page. No edits should be made on a claimed page before discussing intentions to edit the page on the page's talk page (i.e. discussion page). When it is planned by another user to edit a page your edits may be superseded or otherwise made unnecessary in the future. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 07:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

==Spider stings==

Hi. I started a discussion on the Discord server about your edit to [[Spiders]] that said it's clear that Tolkien meant that Shelob was depicted as stinging Frodo. That's not clear to me at all, so I hope you'll explain it. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 01:08, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

:"Now the miserable creature was right under her, for the moment out of the reach of her sting and of her claws."
:"There she crouched, her shuddering belly splayed upon the ground, the great bows of her legs quivering, as she gathered herself for another spring – this time to crush and sting to death."
:I don't see how this can possibly mean "to bite." It would be a strange choice for Tolkien to pair "bite and claws" instead of "teeth and claws," if that's what he meant, not to mention the action of the scene just doesn't support "bite" at all to me.
:Further, John D. Rateliff explores this "error" in a section describing multiple discrepancies between real spiders and the "spider-like" Shelob, Ungoliant and the spiders of Mirkwood in his *The History of The Hobbit,* where he notes (commenting on Tolkien's recollection of being "stung" by a "tarantula" as a small child):
:"This little bit of autobiography is important because tarantulas do not sting: they bite – a small point, but nevertheless suggestive. Tolkien cannot be faulted for forgetting such a detail, since he was only a toddler when the incident occurred, but its significance is that his account shows that even years after writing The Hobbit he was under the impression that spiders have stings. This strongly suggests that Tolkien’s other departures from spider physiology were simple mistakes, however uncharacteristic, rather than deliberate changes for effect – unlike, say, the Nazgûl’s mounts, where he expressly stated that he was not attempting historical accuracy in his depiction but merely drawing on the ‘semi-scientific mythology of the “Prehistoric”’ as inspiration (JRRT to Rhona Beare, 14th October 1958; Letters p. 282).
:In point of fact, Tolkien could not have been ‘stung by a tarantula’ as a child because these spiders are not native to the Orange Free State or indeed southern Africa at all. Instead, the name is locally applied to solifugae, an aggressive arachnid also known as ‘wind scorpions’, ‘sun-spiders’, or ‘camel spiders’ but in fact neither a spider nor a scorpion but a cousin of both. The true tarantula (L. tarantula) of southern Europe is a type of wolf spider, a free-ranging hunter very like the Mirkwood spider pictured in Tolkien’s halftone of Mirkwood. The name’s most common usage today is through its application in the New World to various large hairy spiders of North, South, and Central America (Theraphosidae), some of which are so large that they can prey upon frogs, birds, and very small mammals (the so-called ‘bird-eating spiders’ and ‘monkey spider’)." [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 04:45, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

::I think Rateliff jumped to a conclusion. It seems just as possible to me that Tolkien didn't know how spiders inject their venom but thought "sting" was an appropriate word for it, or knew they bite but still thought "sting" was an appropriate word, though archaic at the time.

::I agree that Tolkien used "sting" to mean a body part in your example, as well as when he tells Gandalf that he's wounded "with knife, sting, and tooth." But "sting" could mean part of a spider (or "any venomous beest", as I mentioned in the Discord comment), though examples are hard to find. Here's one from ''Towards a Natural History of Serpents'' (1742), by Charles Owen: "I proceed to the Spider, another little venomous Insect, whose forked Tongue or Sting, is very fine and sharp..."

::The second sentence you quoted continues, "no little ''bite'' of poison to still the struggling of her meat; this time to slay and then to rend." (Emphasis added.) That looks very much as if she bites to knock her prey out, though possibly "bite" there is some kind of figure of speech.

::I find the scene very easy to picture with biting. Shelob wants to spring at Sam, knock him down, and bite him, or crush him and then back up and bite him. It's harder to picture with a sting because we don't know where the sting would be. Incidentally, it's odd that Tolkien never describes what his giant spiders do to their prey, which makes me wonder whether he really didn't know what real spiders do.

::So I don't think Tolkien makes it clear at all what Shelob does to Frodo.

::(Irrelevantly to this argument, Rateliff may have jumped to another conclusion. There are in fact members of the family Theraphosidae in South Africa, and they're sometimes called tarantulas though maybe more often baboon spiders. Some are big, though not as big as the biggest South American species, and have painful bites. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpactirinae) [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 14:31, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

::I meant to add that Shelob's appearance is described in considerable detail. The part of her body that's most important to the plot is whatever she poisons Frodo with. Her "beak drabbling a spittle of venom" is mentioned, but nothing about a separate sting, even though Sam gets a back view of her when she flees into her tunnel. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:24, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:::I mean we wouldn't really describe spiders as "insects" today either, as far as the Owen reference. Tolkien also got the "beak" wrong (spiders have chelicerae), and implied that the spiders of Mirkwood have compound eyes, which real spiders do not (as far as that goes tarantulas aren't even "true spiders," but that's getting into the weeds a bit), and he also suggest Shelob doesn't molt, again unlike actual spiders. I'll admit I have no idea if harpactirinae live in what was once the Orange Free State, or did in the late 19th century (and Rateliff may not either).
:::I guess I just don't see why obcure, centuries-old examples of a word need be sought out when there's little to suggest the modern and far more common meaning is out of place. Etymonline suggests "sting" has been mostly limited to stinging insects since the 14th century. [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 02:47, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::::I'd say there are good reasons to consider obsolete senses of "sting". Tolkien uses the word "bite". He describes Shelob's venomous beak and many details not directly relevant to the story, but never describes a stinger. And surely it was well known that spiders bite--better known than that they're not insects--but he used "sting" about the one that bit him. Edit: Also Tolkien used archaisms.
::::In regard to what bit him, I looked things up and by far the best possibility seems to be the Highveld Baboon Spider, ''Harpactira hamiltoni''. [https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/138699614 It has been observed recently in or near Bloemfontein] and it's [https://www.mymonsters.co.za/product/harpactira-hamiltoni/#google_vignette described as "commonly found and seen"]. I think Rateliff's comment should be taken out of the article. The only thing that I see as possibly worth keeping is the suggestion that what bit little Ronald might have been a solifuge, but I'd want independent confirmation that they're locally known as tarantulas. (I don't know whether there are other spiders or spider-like animals in the area that have painful bites.)
::::Another subject: Maybe Shelob's beak, which you pointed out, should go into the article as another example of a difference from real spiders. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 13:10, 20 August 2025 (UTC) [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 13:10, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::I'm not convinced, personally, but I won't make any more edits. [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 01:17, 31 August 2025 (UTC)
::::::It seems probable at least that Tolkien didn't know (or care) a whole lot about the anatomical details of real-life spiders. [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 01:18, 31 August 2025 (UTC)
:::::::OK, I'll give it a shot, and of course you should feel feree to continue editing. I agree that Tolkien may well not have known or cared much about how real spiders inject venom—which seems strange, considering that he wrote scenes of horror involving people getting poisoned by giant spiders. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 03:02, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-08-20T14:01:43Z

Spearwielder:

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-08-20T13:10:42Z

Spearwielder: /* Spider stings */ Reply

'''{{PAGENAME}}, welcome!'''

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==Using the "This is a minor edit" checkbox==
Thank you for your interest in Tollien Gateway and for wanting to contribute to improve the pages on Tolkien Gateway. I noticed that you had the "This is a minor edit" checkbox checked on all your edits, so that all your edits in the "Recent changes" list were marked with an "m" as minor edits. If you read the "How to edit a page" page on wikipedia, to which you received a link on the top of this discussion page after you created your user account, you will see that a "check to the "minor edit" box signifies that only superficial differences exist between the version with your edit and the previous version: typo/grammar corrections, fixing a formatting problem, etc. A minor edit is a version that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute." Your edit on the Letter to Arthur Tolkien page was not a minor edit, because it change the age of Tolkien at the time that he wrote the letter and since it is possible that you could have made a mistake in calculating the age, such an edit required a review. Also your edits on the Elven life cycle page and Eagles page were not minor edits, because they were not restricted to typo/grammar corections or fixing a formatting problem. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 07:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

==Edits on the "claimed" Blue Wizards page==
Your edits on the Blue Wizards page were minor edits. Did you notice the prominent blue box at the top of the Blue Wizard's page, which said that "Akhorahil is currently busy with major revisions to this article. Before editing, discuss your intentions on this article's talk page."? This text was generated by a claimed tage in the page. No edits should be made on a claimed page before discussing intentions to edit the page on the page's talk page (i.e. discussion page). When it is planned by another user to edit a page your edits may be superseded or otherwise made unnecessary in the future. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 07:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

==Spider stings==

Hi. I started a discussion on the Discord server about your edit to [[Spiders]] that said it's clear that Tolkien meant that Shelob was depicted as stinging Frodo. That's not clear to me at all, so I hope you'll explain it. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 01:08, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

:"Now the miserable creature was right under her, for the moment out of the reach of her sting and of her claws."
:"There she crouched, her shuddering belly splayed upon the ground, the great bows of her legs quivering, as she gathered herself for another spring – this time to crush and sting to death."
:I don't see how this can possibly mean "to bite." It would be a strange choice for Tolkien to pair "bite and claws" instead of "teeth and claws," if that's what he meant, not to mention the action of the scene just doesn't support "bite" at all to me.
:Further, John D. Rateliff explores this "error" in a section describing multiple discrepancies between real spiders and the "spider-like" Shelob, Ungoliant and the spiders of Mirkwood in his *The History of The Hobbit,* where he notes (commenting on Tolkien's recollection of being "stung" by a "tarantula" as a small child):
:"This little bit of autobiography is important because tarantulas do not sting: they bite – a small point, but nevertheless suggestive. Tolkien cannot be faulted for forgetting such a detail, since he was only a toddler when the incident occurred, but its significance is that his account shows that even years after writing The Hobbit he was under the impression that spiders have stings. This strongly suggests that Tolkien’s other departures from spider physiology were simple mistakes, however uncharacteristic, rather than deliberate changes for effect – unlike, say, the Nazgûl’s mounts, where he expressly stated that he was not attempting historical accuracy in his depiction but merely drawing on the ‘semi-scientific mythology of the “Prehistoric”’ as inspiration (JRRT to Rhona Beare, 14th October 1958; Letters p. 282).
:In point of fact, Tolkien could not have been ‘stung by a tarantula’ as a child because these spiders are not native to the Orange Free State or indeed southern Africa at all. Instead, the name is locally applied to solifugae, an aggressive arachnid also known as ‘wind scorpions’, ‘sun-spiders’, or ‘camel spiders’ but in fact neither a spider nor a scorpion but a cousin of both. The true tarantula (L. tarantula) of southern Europe is a type of wolf spider, a free-ranging hunter very like the Mirkwood spider pictured in Tolkien’s halftone of Mirkwood. The name’s most common usage today is through its application in the New World to various large hairy spiders of North, South, and Central America (Theraphosidae), some of which are so large that they can prey upon frogs, birds, and very small mammals (the so-called ‘bird-eating spiders’ and ‘monkey spider’)." [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 04:45, 18 August 2025 (UTC)

::I think Rateliff jumped to a conclusion. It seems just as possible to me that Tolkien didn't know how spiders inject their venom but thought "sting" was an appropriate word for it, or knew they bite but still thought "sting" was an appropriate word, though archaic at the time.

::I agree that Tolkien used "sting" to mean a body part in your example, as well as when he tells Gandalf that he's wounded "with knife, sting, and tooth." But "sting" could mean part of a spider (or "any venomous beest", as I mentioned in the Discord comment), though examples are hard to find. Here's one from ''Towards a Natural History of Serpents'' (1742), by Charles Owen: "I proceed to the Spider, another little venomous Insect, whose forked Tongue or Sting, is very fine and sharp..."

::The second sentence you quoted continues, "no little ''bite'' of poison to still the struggling of her meat; this time to slay and then to rend." (Emphasis added.) That looks very much as if she bites to knock her prey out, though possibly "bite" there is some kind of figure of speech.

::I find the scene very easy to picture with biting. Shelob wants to spring at Sam, knock him down, and bite him, or crush him and then back up and bite him. It's harder to picture with a sting because we don't know where the sting would be. Incidentally, it's odd that Tolkien never describes what his giant spiders do to their prey, which makes me wonder whether he really didn't know what real spiders do.

::So I don't think Tolkien makes it clear at all what Shelob does to Frodo.

::(Irrelevantly to this argument, Rateliff may have jumped to another conclusion. There are in fact members of the family Theraphosidae in South Africa, and they're sometimes called tarantulas though maybe more often baboon spiders. Some are big, though not as big as the biggest South American species, and have painful bites. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpactirinae) [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 14:31, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

::I meant to add that Shelob's appearance is described in considerable detail. The part of her body that's most important to the plot is whatever she poisons Frodo with. Her "beak drabbling a spittle of venom" is mentioned, but nothing about a separate sting, even though Sam gets a back view of her when she flees into her tunnel. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:24, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
:::I mean we wouldn't really describe spiders as "insects" today either, as far as the Owen reference. Tolkien also got the "beak" wrong (spiders have chelicerae), and implied that the spiders of Mirkwood have compound eyes, which real spiders do not (as far as that goes tarantulas aren't even "true spiders," but that's getting into the weeds a bit), and he also suggest Shelob doesn't molt, again unlike actual spiders. I'll admit I have no idea if harpactirinae live in what was once the Orange Free State, or did in the late 19th century (and Rateliff may not either).
:::I guess I just don't see why obcure, centuries-old examples of a word need be sought out when there's little to suggest the modern and far more common meaning is out of place. Etymonline suggests "sting" has been mostly limited to stinging insects since the 14th century. [[User:GandalftheGraeme|GandalftheGraeme]] ([[User talk:GandalftheGraeme|talk]]) 02:47, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::::I'd say there are good reasons to consider obsolete senses of "sting". Tolkien uses the word "bite". He describes Shelob's venomous beak and many details not directly relevant to the story, but never describes a stinger. And surely it was well known that spiders bite--better known than that they're not insects--but he used "sting" about the one that bit him.
::::In regard to what bit him, I looked things up and by far the best possibility seems to be the Highveld Baboon Spider, ''Harpactira hamiltoni''. [https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/138699614 It has been observed recently in or near Bloemfontein] and it's [https://www.mymonsters.co.za/product/harpactira-hamiltoni/#google_vignette described as "commonly found and seen"]. I think Rateliff's comment should be taken out of the article. The only thing that I see as possibly worth keeping is the suggestion that what bit little Ronald might have been a solifuge, but I'd want independent confirmation that they're locally known as tarantulas. (I don't know whether there are other spiders or spider-like animals in the area that have painful bites.)
::::Another subject: Maybe Shelob's beak, which you pointed out, should go into the article as another example of a difference from real spiders. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 13:10, 20 August 2025 (UTC) [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 13:10, 20 August 2025 (UTC)

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-08-19T19:24:34Z

Spearwielder:

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-08-19T14:31:33Z

Spearwielder:

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-08-19T14:30:51Z

Spearwielder: /* Spider stings */

User talk:GandalftheGraeme

2025-08-18T01:08:55Z

Spearwielder: /* Spider stings */ new section

Spiders

2025-08-18T00:51:08Z

Spearwielder: more specific comparison for "sting"

{{rewrite}}
{{race infobox
| name=Spiders
| image = John Howe - Spiders of Mirkwood.jpg
| caption="Spiders of Mirkwood" by [[John Howe]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| origin=
| location=[[Avathar]], [[Ered Gorgoroth]], [[Nan Dungortheb]], [[Torech Ungol]], [[Ephel Dúath]], [[Eastern hills]], [[Dol Guldur]], and [[Mirkwood]]
| affiliation=[[Ungoliant]]
| rivalry=
| language=[[Westron]]
| people="''Lesser broods''" and "''spiders of Nan Dungortheb''"
| members="''Miserable mates''" and [[Shelob]]
| lifespan=
| distinctions=
| height=
| hair=
| skin=Black or grey
| clothing=
| weapons=
| gallery=spiders
}}

The '''Spiders''' were eight-legged creatures that captured their prey in intricate webs. Many spiders of [[Middle-earth]] reached a colossal size.

==History==
There was a sinister side to the spiders of Middle-earth that entered it with the monstrous [[Ungoliant]] in the years before the [[First Age]]. A gigantic creature of spider-shape, it was she who destroyed the [[Two Trees of Valinor|Two Trees]] of [[Valinor]] by sucking the light out of them, and escaped with [[Morgoth|Melkor]] into the lands of Middle-earth. There other great spiders already dwelt. Though Ungoliant disappeared into the far south, she left the northern lands infested with her offspring. During the First Age, the mountains of the [[Ered Gorgoroth]] were infested with these monsters, and became a place of dread.

[[Beren]] fought some of the spiders of [[Nan Dungortheb]], possibly [[Shelob]] herself, when he passed through to enter [[Doriath]].<ref>{{TT|Lair}}, p. 723</ref>

The most infamous of Ungoliant's children lived far to the south and east of the Ered Gorgoroth, on the borders of the land of [[Mordor]]. This was [[Shelob]], who haunted a network of tunnels watching the pass of [[Cirith Ungol]], making a living on hapless [[Orcs]] and anyone else who happened to come down the passage. She had offspring of her own, smaller than she but with a cruel intelligence, that spread throughout the [[Ephel Dúath]] and the [[Eastern hills]], spreading as far north as [[Dol Guldur]] and [[Mirkwood]]. The [[Sauron|return of the Necromancer]] seemed to have emboldened the spiders' hungry tendencies. It was creatures like these that [[Bilbo Baggins]] encountered in ''[[The Hobbit]]'', and after fighting them he gave his sword its name [[Sting]].

Tolkien says of Shelob, "Most '''like''' a spider she was," [emphasis added], and the offspring of Ungoliant differed from normal spiders in respects beyond their enormous size. Bilbo sees the Mirkwood spiders' eyes as "Insect eyes,"<ref>{{H|8}}</ref> and Shelob's eyes are "clustered" and "many-windowed", with "a thousand facets", like insects' compound eyes.<ref name="TT|IV9">{{TT|IV9}}</ref> However, normal spiders do not have compound eyes. Tolkien may not have been over-concerned with the difference between spiders and insects, as in the same chapter of ''The Hobbit'' he refers to spiders as "hunting and spinning insects". Another difference is that when spiders grow, they moult their skins, but Shelob's hide was "ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth."<ref name="Rateliff">John Rateliff. 2007. ''The History of the Hobbit: Mr. Baggins'', volume 1. Harper-Collins, p. 322</ref>

Shelob is consistently described as "stinging" and having a "sting".<ref name="TT|IV9" /><ref>{{TT|IV10}}</ref><ref>{{RK|VI9}}</ref> That has been taken to mean a sting like that of a wasp or a scorpion, which normal spiders do not have.<ref name="Rateliff" /> However, in the quotation from "Letter 163" in the "Inspiration" section below, Tolkien may have used the verb "sting" in the rare sense of a spider's bite; in ''The Lord of the Rings'', however, Shelob is quite clearly depicted as stinging Frodo.

==Other names==
In [[Sindarin]], the word for "spider" is '''''ungol'''''.<ref name="UI">{{HM|UI}}, p. 490</ref> It is found in such names as [[Shelob's Lair|Torech Ungol]], [[Ungoliant#Etymology|Ungoliant]], and [[Cirith Ungol]].

In [[Gnomish]], one of [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s early conceptions of an [[Elvish|Elven]] language, the word for "spider" is ''cing'' or ''cingwin'' (a struck-out word was ''gung''). A deleted [[Qenya]] word for "spider" was ''ung-we''.<ref>{{PE|11}}, pp. 26, 43</ref>

In a [[Old fat spider spinning in a tree!|song]], [[Bilbo Baggins]] taunted the spiders of [[Mirkwood]] with the name "Attercop" which the spiders found insulting.<ref>{{cite DTP|H 08.096}}</ref> "Attercop" is an obsolete English word for spider, and can figuratively mean a malignant, ill-natured person.

==Inspiration==
Tolkien made inconsistent comments on his feelings about spiders. In a letter to [[W. H. Auden]] (quoted more completely below), he wrote, "I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them. I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!"

However, in an interview with [[Jan Broberg]] in 1961, Tolkien said, as translated by John-Henri Holmberg, "I don't like spiders. It's not a pathological fear, but I rather won't have anything to do with them."<ref>Quoted by {{webcite|author=[[Christina Scull]] and [[Wayne G. Hammond]]|articlename=Addenda and Corrigenda to ''The J. R. R. Tolkien Companion and Guide'' (2006), Vol. 2: Reader's Guide: Arranged by Date|dated=Dec. 23, 2010|articleurl=https://www.hammondandscull.com/addenda/guide_by_date.html|website=hammondandscull.com}}. The Swedish version is "Jag tycker inte om spindlar. Det är ingen patologisk skräck, men jag vill helst inte ha med dem in att göra." "I would rather not" might be closer to what Tolkien said in English.</ref>

Likewise the writer Richard Lupoff asked Tolkien whether the giant spiders in Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom books had inspired Shelob, and Tolkien replied in a [[Letter to Richard Lupoff|letter]]:

{{quote|Source hunting is a great entertainment but I myself do not find it particularly useful. I did read many of Edgar Rice Burroughs' earlier works, but I developed a dislike for his Tarzan even greater than '''my distaste for spiders'''. Spiders I had met long before Burroughs began to write, and I do not think he is in any way responsible for Shelob. At any rate I retain no memory of the Siths or the Apt.|[[Edgar Rice Burroughs: Master of Adventure]]}}

Tolkien was bitten by a spider (often said to be a tarantula, but tarantulas do not exist in that part of South Africa, according to John Rateliff) when he was a small boy in South Africa. Many writers have suggested that the incident underlies the horrifying and deadly giant spiders in ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', ''[[The Hobbit]]'', and ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.<ref name="Horne">Mark Horne. 2011. ''J. R. R. Tolkien''. Thomas Nelson Publishers, p. 2</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=Emily Asher-Perrin
|articleurl=https://www.tor.com/2016/11/04/we-can-probably-blame-the-tarantula-that-bit-j-r-r-tolkien-for-most-giant-spiders-in-fantasy|articlename=We Can Probably Blame the Tarantula that Bit J. R. R. Tolkien for Most of the Spiders in Fantasy|dated=Nov. 4, 2016|website=Tor.com|accessed=March 22, 2016}}</ref>
Tolkien saw no reason to accept that explanation, and he specifically said that his purpose in putting spiders into ''The Hobbit'' was to scare his son Michael, who had a fear of them. But some commentators have avoided committing themselves to saying the analysis must be false,<ref name="Horne" /><ref>Deborah Webster Rogers; Ivor I. Rogers. 1980. ''J. R. R. Tolkien''. "Tolkien had been bitten by a tarantula in South Africa, and Michael had a horror of spiders, as do many people; so the author could be drawing on either personal or public feeling in his portrayal of arachnids."</ref> as seen also in the quotation from Humphrey Carpenter's biography below, and Tolkien did not commit himself either.

{{quote|...when Ronald [Tolkien] was beginning to walk, he stumbled on a tarantula. It bit him, and he ran in terror across the garden until the nurse snatched him up and sucked out the poison. When he grew up he could remember a hot day and running in fear through long, dead grass, '''but the memory of the tarantula itself faded, and he said that the incident left him with no especial dislike of spiders.''' Nevertheless, he wrote more than once of monstrous spiders with venomous bites.|''[[J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography]]''}}

{{quote|I knew that the way [for Frodo, Sam, and Gollum] was guarded by a Spider. And if that has anything to do with my being stung by a tarantula when a small child, people are welcome to the notion (supposing the improbable, that any one is interested). I can only say that I remember nothing about it, should not know it if I had not been told; and '''I do not dislike spiders particularly, and have no urge to kill them.''' I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath!|{{L|163}}}}

Regarding the spiders in ''[[The Hobbit]]'':

{{quote|I put in the spiders largely because this was, you remember, primarily written for my children (at least I had them in mind), and one of my sons [Michael] in particular dislikes spiders with a great intensity. I did it to thoroughly frighten him and it did!|From an interview of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] on January 15, 1957 by Ruth Harshaw for the "Carnival of Books" radio show. (According to ''[[The Annotated Hobbit]]'')}}

{{quote|Throughout his life, Tolkien’s son Michael had what he called “a deep-rooted abhorrence of spiders.”|''[[The Annotated Hobbit]]''}}

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''1980: [[Der Hobbit (1980 German radio series)|''Der Hobbit'' (1980 German radio series)]]:'''
:The spiders of Mirkwood are played by Uta Hallant and Lieselotte Rau.

'''1982: [[The Hobbit (1982 video game)|''The Hobbit (1982 text adventure game)'']]'''
:In the text adventure game, spiders don't make any explicit appearance, although you will see "Pale Bulbous Eyes" as you and your party travel along the [[Old Forest Road]]. If you stay on the road for too long, something will leap down from the trees and kill you.

'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]'':'''
:''See [[Shelob#Portrayal in adaptations|Shelob: Portrayal in adaptations]]''

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Non-player (NPC, computer controlled) spiders are found in a number of areas of Middle-earth. Players can play a spider in the Player-versus-Player (PvP) area of the [[Ettenmoors]] once the player reaches level ten. Spiders in ''The Lord of the Rings Online'' have the ability to root and spit poison from a distance.

:The appearance of spiders vary from zone to zone for NPC spiders and from rank to rank for player controlled spiders. They all look like very large spiders from the size of a cat up to the size of a large elephant.

'''2012-4: [[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' film series]]:'''
:The spiders of Mirkwood are portrayed in the first two films, ''An Unexpected Journey'' and ''The Desolation of Smaug''. In the former, they attack [[Radagast]]'s dwelling in [[Rhosgobel]], but are driven away by him. Radagast discovers that they came from the ruins of [[Dol Guldur]] (implying that they are drawn to the power of [[Sauron|the Necromancer]] lurking there), and deduces that they are descendants of [[Ungoliant]]. In the latter film, their role is faithful to their portrayal in the novel. As in the book, they are capable of speech (although Bilbo is only capable of understanding them while wearing the [[One Ring|Ring]]). When one of the spiders screams about how Bilbo's Elvish blade "stings" it, it is then that Bilbo decides to give his weapon a name.

'''2017: ''[[Middle-earth: Shadow of War]]'':'''
:''See [[Shelob#Portrayal in adaptations|Shelob: Portrayal in adaptations]]''

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of spiders|Images of spiders]]

{{references}}

[[Category:Evil]]
[[Category:Spiders]]

[[de:Spinnen]]
[[fi:Hämähäkit]]

Song of Eärendil

2025-08-16T20:13:32Z

Spearwielder: Correct spelling of "inaccurately", British spelling of "metre" (my mistake), reword notes.

[[File:Anke Eißmann - Frodo's dream of Eärendil.jpg|thumb|''Frodo's dream of Eärendil'' by [[Anke Eißmann]]]]

"'''Eärendil was a mariner'''", also known as '''''The Short Lay of Eärendel: Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="F">{{TI|V}}, pp. 102-3, Note 26</ref> or just the '''''Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="Final">{{HM|RC}}, p. 210-3</ref> was a song written by [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and [[Aragorn]], and sung by Bilbo when the [[Hobbits]] reached [[Rivendell]].<ref>{{FR|Meetings}}</ref>

It is believed that the song is a reworking of an earlier nonsensical poem ''[[Errantry]]'', most likely also composed by Bilbo after his return from the [[Quest for Erebor]], lightheartedly incorporating Elvish elements. Perhaps because Bilbo was proud of ''Errantry'''s metrical devices, he transformed and (incongruously) applied that poem to the legends of the [[First Age]].<ref>{{ATB|Foreword}}</ref> Aragorn's contributions included his request for a [[Elfstone|green jewel]] in the song; Bilbo obeyed, but inaccurately referred to it as an emerald.<ref>{{FR|II1}}, p. 237</ref>

==Division of the poem==
#An introduction to [[Eärendil]] and the building of his [[Vingilot|ship]]
#A detailed description of him, the final line of which was supposedly influenced by [[Aragorn]]
#A description of his fruitless wanderings in search of [[Valinor]]
#How [[Elwing]] his wife flew to him in the form of a bird and bound the jewel to his forehead
#How he found Valinor
#Concerning his stay there
#How they built a new ship for him, and how [[Varda|Elbereth]] gave him wings
#How he left Valinor
#How he passed over [[Middle-earth]] and became a [[Star of Eärendil|star]]

==Metre and assonance==
The metre is iambic tetrameter.<ref group="note">Many of the poems in ''The Lord of the Rings'' are in this metre.</ref> The poem is structured according to trisyllabic assonances, inherited from "Errantry".<ref name="l133" /> These are units of three syllables in which the first and third syllables of one unit, which are accented, rhyme or off-rhyme with the first and third syllables of another. The off-rhymes are typically assonances, that is, matching vowel sounds, though some only have similar vowels, and often the consonants are similar or the same as well.

For example,

<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
The winds of wrath came driving him,
and blindly in the foam he fled
from west to east and errandless,
unheralded he homeward sped.
</poem>

Here "fled" rhymes with "sped", but in addition, the vowel of "foam" is the same as the first vowel of "homeward". Thus the matching units are "foam he fled" and "homeward sped". Another pair of matching units is "driving him" and "blindly in". Another is "errandless" and "[un]heralded".

The pattern is the same throughout the poem. In every set of four lines, the last three syllables of the first line match the second, third and fourth of the second line. The third and fourth lines have the same kind of matching. And the last three syllables of the second line match those of the fourth line, usually with an exact rhyme at the end.<ref group="note">The assonances follow the standard [[Wikipedia:Received Pronuncuation|Received Pronuncuation]] of England. Pairs including "f'''a'''r"/"l'''a'''st", "p'''a'''ths"/"T'''a'''rmenel", "bey'''o'''nd"/"str'''o'''ng", "'''a'''rrows"/"dr'''a'''gon", "ag'''ai'''n"/"aw'''ay'''" and "s'''a'''w"/"sh'''or'''e" have the same vowels in RP but not in many American and Canadian pronunciations.</ref>

An example where the vowels don't match exactly is "across" and "passed", though the sounds are similar and the "s" is repeated. The first four lines are especially atypical.

==First stanza==
<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
[[Eärendil]] was a mariner
that tarried in [[Arvernien]];
he built a [[Vingilot|boat of timber]] felled
in [[Nimbrethil]] to journey in;
her sails he wove of [[silver]] fair,
of silver were her lanterns made,
her prow was fashioned like a [[Swans|swan]],
and light upon her banners laid.</poem>

==Inspiration==
''Eärendil'' derives from Tolkien's earlier poem ''[[Errantry]]'' (published [[1933]]). In the drafts of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', ''Errantry'' evolved in stages, and reached its final published form after fifteen revisions.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. xxiii</ref> ''Errantry'' was eventually republished in ''[[The Adventures of Tom Bombadil]]''. Both ''Errantry'' and ''Eärendil'' use a sound pattern of Tolkien's own invention: trisyllabic assonances or near-assonances.<ref name="l133">{{L|133}}</ref><ref name="ABcomm">{{AB|Comm}}</ref> This fact passed into the legendarium, as the Preface to ''The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'' says that Bilbo was probably proud of his metre and used it as a model for ''Earendil''.

==Other versions of the Legendarium==
Among the various versions of the poem, there is one version which [[Christopher Tolkien]] believed that his father most likely intended for publication instead of the above version, which was published in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''.<ref name="Final" /><ref name="F" />

The title ''Eärendillinwë'' (sometimes ''Earendillínwë'' with a long ''í'') is a title that appears in various drafts but not in the published text of the ''Fellowship''.<ref name="F" /> The spelling ''Earend'''e'''l'' belongs to earlier versions of the Legendarium, as when the character first appears in ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]''.

==See also==
*''[[Errantry]]''
*[[Fragment of an alliterative Lay of Eärendel]]
*''[[Lay of Eärendil]]''
*[[Poems in The Lord of the Rings|Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings'']]

==External links==
*[http://www.councilofelrond.com/poem/the-short-lay-of-earendel-earendillinwe/ Eärendillinwë], the latest form of the Song of Eärendil, which was not published in ''Fellowship''

{{references|n}}

[[Category:Poems in The Fellowship of the Ring]]
[[de:Lied über Earendil]]
[[fi:Eärendil, kyntäjä merien]]

Song of Eärendil

2024-11-16T05:13:27Z

Spearwielder: add assonance of "far" and "last"

{{Unnamed}}
[[File:Anke Eißmann - Frodo's dream of Eärendil.jpg|thumb|''Frodo's dream of Eärendil'' by [[Anke Eißmann]]]]

"'''Eärendil was a mariner'''", also known as the '''''Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="Final">{{HM|RC}}, p. 210-3</ref>, '''''The Short Lay of Eärendel: Eärendillinwë'''''<ref name="F">{{TI|V}}, pp. 102-3, Note 26</ref>, or '''The Short Lay of Earendel: Earendillínwë''', was a song written by [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and [[Aragorn]], and sung by Bilbo when the [[Hobbits]] reached [[Rivendell]].<ref>{{FR|Meetings}}</ref>

It is believed that the song is a reworking of an earlier nonsensical poem ''[[Errantry]]'', most likely also composed by Bilbo after his return from the [[Quest for Erebor]], lightheartedly incorporating Elvish elements. Perhaps because Bilbo was proud of ''Errantry'''s metrical devices, he transformed and (incongruously) applied that poem to the legends of the [[First Age]].<ref>{{ATB|Foreword}}</ref>

==Division of the poem==
#An introduction to [[Eärendil]] and the building of his [[Vingilot|ship]]
#A detailed description of him, the final line of which was supposedly influenced by [[Aragorn]]
#A description of his fruitless wanderings in search of [[Valinor]]
#How [[Elwing]] his wife flew to him in the form of a bird and bound the jewel to his forehead
#How he found Valinor
#Concerning his stay there
#How they built a new ship for him, and how [[Varda|Elbereth]] gave him wings
#How he left Valinor
#How he passed over [[Middle-earth]] and became a [[Star of Eärendil|star]]

==Meter and assonance==
The meter is iambic tetrameter, like that of many of the poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Like "Errantry", the poem also includes trisyllabic assonances.<ref name="l133" /> These are units of three syllables in which the first and third syllables of one unit, which are accented, rhyme or off-rhyme with the first and third syllables of another. The off-rhymes are typically assonances, that is, matching vowel sounds, though some only have similar vowels, and often the consonants are similar or the same as well.

For example,

<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
The winds of wrath came driving him, and blindly in the foam he fled from west to east and errandless, unheralded he homeward sped. 
</poem>

Here "fled" rhymes with "sped", but in addition, the vowel of "foam" is the same as the first vowel of "homeward". Thus the matching units are "foam he fled" and "homeward sped". Another pair of matching units is "driving him" and "blindly in". Another is "errandless" and "[un]heralded".

The pattern is the same throughout the poem. In every set of four lines, the last three syllables of the first line match the second, third and fourth of the second line. The third and fourth lines have the same kind of matching. And the last three syllables of the second line match those of the fourth line, usually with an exact rhyme at the end.

Some American and Canadian readers may need it pointed out that in the standard pronunciation of England ("Received Pronunciation"), "far" has the same vowel as "last", "paths" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "Tarmenel", and the second syllable of "beyond" has the same vowel as "strong". Likewise the first syllable of "arrows" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "dragon", "again" has the same accented vowel as "away", and "saw" has the same vowel as "shore".

An example where the vowels don't match exactly is "across" and "passed", though the sounds are similar and the "s" is repeated. The first four lines are especially atypical.

==The poem==
<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
[[Eärendil]] was a mariner that tarried in [[Arvernien]]; he built a [[Vingilot|boat of timber]] felled in [[Nimbrethil]] to journey in; her sails he wove of [[silver]] fair, of silver were her lanterns made, her prow was fashioned like a [[Swans|swan]], and light upon her banners laid. In panoply of ancient kings, in chainéd [[Ring (disambiguation)|rings]] he armoured him; his shining shield was scored with runes to ward all wounds and harm from him; his bow was made of dragon-horn, his arrows shorn of ebony; of silver was his habergeon, his scabbard of chalcedony; his sword of steel was valiant, of adamant his helmet tall, an eagle-plume upon his crest, upon his breast [[Elfstone|an emerald]]. Beneath the [[Moon]] and under [[Stars|star]] he wandered far from northern strands, bewildered on enchanted ways beyond the days of mortal lands. From gnashing of the [[Narrow Ice]] where shadow lies on frozen hills, from nether heats and burning waste he turned in haste, and roving still on starless waters far astray at last he came to Night of Naught, and passed, and never sight he saw of shining shore nor light he sought. The winds of wrath came driving him, and blindly in the foam he fled from west to east and errandless, unheralded he homeward sped. There flying [[Elwing]] came to him, and flame was in the [[Darkness (concept)|darkness]] lit; more bright than light of diamond the fire upon her carcanet. The [[Silmaril]] she bound on him and crowned him with the living light and dauntless then with burning brow he turned his prow; and in the night from [[Valinor|Otherworld]] beyond the [[Belegaer|Sea]] there strong and free a storm arose, a wind of power in [[Tarmenel]]; by paths that seldom mortal goes his boat it bore with biting breath as might of death across the grey and long forsaken seas distressed; from east to west he passed away. Through [[Evernight]] he back was borne on black and roaring waves that ran o'er leagues unlit and foundered shores that drowned before the Days began, until he heard on strands of [[Pearl (disambiguation)|pearl]] where ends the world the music long, where ever-foaming billows roll the yellow [[gold]] and jewels wan. He saw the Mountain silent rise where [[twilight]] lies upon the knees of [[Valinor]], and [[Eldamar]] beheld afar beyond the seas. A wanderer escaped from night to haven white he came at last, to [[Elvenhome]] the green and fair where keen the air, where pale as glass beneath the [[Taniquetil|Hill]] of [[Ilmarin]] a-glimmer in a valley sheer the lamplit towers of [[Tirion]] are mirrored on the [[Luvailin|Shadowmere]]. He tarried there from errantry, and melodies they taught to him, and sages old him marvels told, and harps of gold they brought to him. They clothed him then in elven-white, and seven lights before him sent, as through the [[Calacirian]] to hidden land forlorn he went. He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years, and endless reigns the [[Elder King]] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer; and words unheard were spoken then of folk of [[Men]] and [[elves|Elven-kin]], beyond the world were visions showed forbid to those that dwell therein. A [[Star of Eärendil|ship]] then new they built for him of [[mithril]] and of elven-glass with shining prow; no shaven oar nor sail she bore on silver mast: the Silmaril as lantern light and banner bright with living flame to gleam thereon by [[Varda|Elbereth]] herself was set, who thither came and wings immortal made for him, and laid on him undying doom, to sail the shoreless skies and come behind the [[Sun]] and [[sil-|light of Moon]]. From [[Evereven|Evereven's]] lofty hills where softly silver fountains fall his wings him bore, a wandering light, beyond the mighty [[Mountain Wall]]. From World's End there he turned away, and yearned again to find afar his home through [[shadow]]s journeying, and burning as an island star on high above the mists he came, a distant flame before the Sun, a wonder ere the waking dawn where grey the Norland waters run. And over [[Middle-earth]] he passed and heard at last the weeping sore of women and of elven-maids in [[Elder Days]], in years of yore. But on him mighty doom was laid, till Moon should fade, an orbéd star to pass, and tarry never more on [[Hither Shore]]s where [[Mortals]] are; for ever still a herald on an errand that should never rest to bear his shining lamp afar, the Flammifer of [[Westernesse]].</poem>

==Inspiration==
''Eärendil'' derives from Tolkien's earlier poem ''[[Errantry]]'' (published [[1933]]). In the drafts of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', ''Errantry'' evolved in stages, and reached its final published form after fifteen revisions.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. xxiii</ref> ''Errantry'' was eventually republished in ''[[The Adventures of Tom Bombadil]]''. Both ''Errantry'' and ''Eärendil'' use a meter of Tolkien's own invention: trisyllabic assonances or near-assonances.<ref name="l133">{{L|133}}</ref><ref name="ABcomm">{{AB|Comm}}</ref> This fact passed into the legendarium, as the Preface to ''The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'' says that Bilbo was probably proud of his meter and used it as a model for ''Earendil''.

==Other versions of the Legendarium==
Among the various versions of the poem, there is one version which [[Christopher Tolkien]] believed that his father most likely intended for publication instead of the above version, which was published in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''.<ref name="Final" /><ref name="F" />

==See also==
*''[[Errantry]]''
*[[Fragment of an alliterative Lay of Eärendel]]
*''[[Lay of Eärendil]]''
*[[Poems in The Lord of the Rings|Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings'']]

==External links==
*[http://www.councilofelrond.com/poem/the-short-lay-of-earendel-earendillinwe/ Eärendillinwë], the latest form of the Song of Eärendil, which was not published in ''Fellowship''

{{references}}

[[Category:Poems in The Fellowship of the Ring]]
[[de:Lied über Earendil]]
[[fi:Eärendil, kyntäjä merien]]

Radagast

2024-07-05T14:51:19Z

Spearwielder: /* Other versions of the legendarium */ typo

{{infobox character
| people=[[Maiar|Maia]]
| name=Radagast
| people=[[Maiar|Maia]] ([[Wizards|Wizard]])
| image=Fabio Leone - Radagast the Brown.png
| caption="Radagast the Brown" by [[:Category:Images by Fabio Leone|Fabio Leone]]
| pronun=
| othernames=''Aiwendil'', ''Hrávandil'' ([[Quenya|Q]]) "the Brown"
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Rhosgobel]]
| affiliation=[[Istari]] (Wizards) [[White Council]]
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair="short, curling, light brown hair on his chin"<ref>{{NM|P2v}}, ''Footnotes'', p. 187</ref>
| eyes=
| clothing=Earthen-brown robes<ref name="UTIstari">{{UT|Istari}}</ref>
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
<center>{{Quote|Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.|[[Gandalf]] in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', "[[The Council of Elrond]]"}}</center>

'''Radagast the Brown''', also known as '''Aiwendil''', was one of the [[Wizards]] sent to [[Middle-earth]] to contest the will of [[Sauron]]. Originally a [[Maiar|Maia]] of [[Yavanna]], he had a strong affinity for animals. He dwelt, for a time, at [[Rhosgobel]] on the western eaves of [[Mirkwood]], near the [[Gladden Fields]] on the [[Anduin|Great River]].<ref name="UTIstari"/><ref name="FRCouncil">{{FR|Council}}</ref>

==History==
[[File:Jef Murray - Mage of Rhosgobel.jpg|thumb|left|''Mage of Rhosgobel'' by [[Jef Murray]]]]
The [[Maia]] Aiwendil was an [[Ainu]] who existed before [[Time]], and one of the [[spirits]] who descended to [[Arda]] in order to serve the [[Valar]].<ref>{{S|Vala}}</ref> Aiwendil was a servant of the Valië [[Yavanna]], the Queen of earth.<ref name="UTIstari"/>

After the Valar discovered the primeval [[Elves]] at [[Cuiviénen]], Aiwendil was sent there with several other Maiar to guard the Elves from the forces of [[Melkor]]. He was known there by the name ''Hrávandil''. It is unclear how long he remained or if he accompanied the [[Eldar]] on the [[Great Journey]].<ref>{{NM|P1xiii}}, p. 95</ref>

After the defeat of [[Morgoth]], the Valar grew concerned about the growing power of [[Sauron]] in [[Middle-earth]]. Manwë summoned a council of the [[Valar]], and it was decided that they would send Maiar as emissaries to Middle-earth to aid the [[Free Peoples]]. [[Aulë]] chose [[Saruman|Curumo]] (later Saruman), [[Oromë]] chose [[Blue Wizards|Alatar]], and Manwë chose [[Gandalf|Olórin]] (later Gandalf). Yavanna subsequently begged Curumo to take Aiwendil with him, much to Curumo's displeasure.

In c. {{TA|1000}}, the Maiar arrived upon the shores of Middle-earth, having the form of old [[Men]], whom the peoples called [[Wizards]]. Curumo arrived first and alone, and Aiwendil arrived at the same time as Olórin. In Middle-earth he was known as Radagast, and he was robed in brown.<ref name="UTIstari"/>

===Travels in Middle-earth===
When the Wizards took their mission they roamed Middle-earth, but Radagast was never much of a traveller.<ref name="FRCouncil"/> There is not much to be told about his early journeys, but by the late [[Third Age]] he eventually settled down and dwelt, for a time at least, at [[Rhosgobel]] somewhere between the [[Carrock]] and the [[Old Forest Road]].<ref name="UTIstari"/> Situated on the western borders of [[Mirkwood]], it can be assumed that the Wizard held watch against the [[Shadow]] of [[Dol Guldur]] that slowly engulfed the forest. It is likely that he became acquainted with the inhabitants of that region. Close to animals and birds, he was friends with the [[eagles|great eagles]].<ref name="FRCouncil"/> Although the neighboring [[Beorn]] was unsociable, he used to see him from time to time, and he considered Radagast "not bad" for a Wizard.<ref name="HQueer">{{H|Queer}}</ref>

In {{TA|2851}}, the [[White Council]] met once more and, after that, Saruman began to search the [[Gladden Fields]] for [[the One Ring]].<ref name="AppB2">{{App|B2}}</ref> Radagast decided to aid his search with birds and beasts who acted as spies hoping that Saruman's actions would help watch and hinder Sauron. Radagast did this in good faith, knowing nothing of Saruman's real ambitions to keep the Ring for himself.<ref name="SRings">{{S|Rings}}</ref>

[[File:Angelo Montanini - Radagast.jpg|thumb|''Radagast'' by [[Angelo Montanini]]]]
By the time of the [[War of the Ring]] Radagast did not dwell any more in Rhosgobel. In summer {{TA|3018}} Saruman told Radagast that he was willing to help Gandalf, and sent the Brown Wizard to seek him out at once. Radagast did not know much of [[Eriador]] but sought for [[the Shire]], knowing that he would find Gandalf nearby.<ref name="FRCouncil"/>

Indeed, on [[Mid-year's Day|Midsummer's Day]], Radagast was sitting on the side of the [[Greenway]] with his horse near [[Bree]] when Gandalf found him on his way to the village. Radagast warned Gandalf that the [[Nazgûl]] were abroad, disguised as riders in black, and that they were seeking news of [[the Shire]]. He also gave him Saruman's invitation and agreed to help Gandalf by getting beasts and birds to send news to [[Orthanc]]. With that he rode away back towards Mirkwood.<ref name="FRCouncil"/>

By sending Gandalf to Orthanc, Radagast unwittingly had him captured. Saruman's message proved to be a trap for Gandalf who was imprisoned in Orthanc, but still he did not believe that Radagast was also a part of Saruman's plans. Indeed, it was thanks to Radagast that Gandalf was able to escape from the pinnacle of Orthanc upon the wings of [[Gwaihir]].<ref name="FRCouncil"/>

Radagast's actions during and after the rest of the War are not recorded. After the [[Council of Elrond]], many scouts were sent out from [[Rivendell]] to many different locations. Some passed over the [[Misty Mountains]] and eventually came to [[Rhosgobel]], but they found that Radagast was not there.<ref name="FRSouth">{{FR|South}}</ref>

==Characteristics==
Little is known about Radagast apart from certain defining characteristics. Saruman was the chief of the Order of Wizards and Gandalf came next in the order; Radagast meanwhile held much less power and wisdom.<ref name="UTIstari"/>

As one of the [[Maiar]] of [[Yavanna]], Radagast had a great interest in the [[kelvar]] and [[olvar]] of [[Middle-earth]] and was a friend to beasts and birds.<ref name="UTIstari"/><ref name="FRCouncil"/>

Gandalf, however, held greater knowledge of birds and beasts than Radagast, as well as greater respect received from them.<ref name="RC.245">{{HM|RC}}, p. 245</ref>

Radagast displayed some qualities of innocence and naivety, making him an ideal accomplice of Saruman's plans, seen in providing his services to help the White examine the Gladden Fields.<ref name="SRings"/> Saruman in turn considered him simple and foolish.<ref name="FRCouncil"/>

==Etymology==
In a very late note written by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] in [[1972]] the name is said to be derived from the [[Men]] of the [[Vales of Anduin]] and that its meaning is "not now clearly interpretable".<ref>{{UT|Istari}}, note 4</ref>

In a manuscript written by Tolkien in [[1954]], the name ''Radagast'' is said to be "in the tongue of Númenor of old" and to mean "tender of beasts".<ref name="UTIstari"/> [[John D. Rateliff]] suggests that it is possible that Tolkien did not mean classical [[Adûnaic]], but [[Westron]], which was descended from Adûnaic.<ref name=HHO>{{HM|HHO}}, pp. 278, 291</ref>

John D. Rateliff and [[Douglas A. Anderson]] suggest the name of the [[Gothic]] chieftain ''[[Wikipedia:Radagaisus|Radagaisus]]'', whose name (as noted by [[David Salo]]) is rendered ''Rhadagast'' in some works from the 18th and 19th century (e.g., ''King Alfred's Anglo-Saxon Version of Boethius' De Consolatione Philosophiae'', translated by J.S. Cardale in 1829) as a source of inspiration. They also suggest the name of the Slavic god [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radegast_%28god%29 ''Radegast''] (mentioned by the eleventh-century german historian Adam of Bremen's Gesta Hamburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum and nineteenth-century german writer Jacob Grimm in Teutonic Mythology) or ''Redigast''.<ref name=HHO/><ref>{{HM|AH}}, p. 167</ref><ref name=RC>{{HM|RC}}, pp. 240-241</ref> John D. Rateliff also suggests that it may be an [[Old English]] name, which means "Spirit of the Road" and consistings of the components ''rad'' ("road") and ''gast'' ("spirit", "angel", "human being"). John D. Rateliff suggests that the name of the Gothic king is the most convincing source of inspiration, because of J.R.R. Tolkien's interest in the Gothic language and his knowledge of Gothic history.<ref name=HHO/> [[Tom Shippey]] mentions that Edward Gibbon's ''Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'' stayed in Tolkien's mind and that ''Radagaisus'' is included in its index.<ref>[[Tom Shippey]], ''The Road to Middle-earth'', Appendix A Tolkien's Sources: The True Tradition, 3rd edition, p. 396</ref>

The similarity to [[Old English]] ''rudugást'' meaning "red-brown spirit" has also been noted by fans.<ref>{{webcite|author=|articleurl=http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/r/radagast.html‎|articlename=Radagast|dated=|website=EoA|accessed=}}</ref>

There is also a possibility that the [[Old Norse]] word ''ráðgast'' [to consult] could be part of the explanation.

==Other names==
{{Pronounce|Quenya - Aiwendil.mp3|Gilgamesh}}
The name '''''Aiwendil''''' is [[Quenya]] for "Lover of Birds".<ref name="UTIstari"/>{{rp|401}} It is obviously derived from ''[[aiwë]]'' ("a small bird") + ''[[-ndil]]'' ("devoted to").<ref name=RC/>

Another Quenya name was '''''Hrávandil''''', used when he was sent to [[Cuiviénen]] with the other [[Five Guardians|Guardians]], which according to [[Carl Hostetter]] most likely means "Wild beast friend", from ''hravan'' ("wild beast") + ''-ndil'' ("friend").<ref>{{NM|P1xiii}}, "Notes", p. 102, note 7</ref>

As one of the [[Wizards]] sent to [[Middle-earth]], he was known as "Radagast '''the Brown'''". [[Saruman]], when talking to [[Gandalf]], mocked Radagast by calling him "Radagast the Bird-tamer", "Radagast the Simple", and "Radagast the Fool".<ref name="FRCouncil"/>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
From the first drafts of ''The Hobbit'', [[Gandalf|Bladorthin]] identifies Radagast as a fellow wizard and as his 'cousin'. [[John D. Rateliff]] notes that, at this stage in the development of [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien's]] [[legendarium]] there was no reason why a wizard could not have a cousin. Rateliff also suggests that it is likely that Tolkien considered explaining Gandalf's absence (following the departure of Thorin and Company from Beorn's house) by saying that he went to visit Radagast (who lived close by) to plan the attack on the [[Sauron|Necromancer]].<ref name="HHMedwed">{{HH|Medwed}}, "(vi) Radagast"</ref>

Early in the process of writing ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', it is clear that [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] envisaged some role for Radagast in the tale.<ref>{{RS|New}}, p. 379;{{RS|Elrond}}, p. 397</ref> He eventually decided that he would use Radagast as the means of getting Gandalf to Isengard.<ref name="TIC1.130-140">{{TI|C1}}, pp. 130-140</ref>

Initially Gandalf describes Radagast as his 'cousin',<ref>{{TI|C1}}, p. 131</ref> as he did in ''[[The Hobbit]]'',<ref name="HQueer"/> but in a subsequent draft he becomes his 'kinsman'.<ref>{{TI|C2}}, p. 149</ref> In the final version Gandalf merely says that Radagast is 'one of my order'.<ref name="FRCouncil"/>

Tolkien initially called him "Radagast the Grey", but in pencil he changed this to "Brown" and subsequently Saruman refers to him as "Radagast the Brown".<ref name="TIC1.130-140"/>

When Tolkien finished writing the story up till Moria, he made notes on the future story development; therein he considered Gandalf evicting Saruman from Isengard and handing it over to Radagast after the fall of Mordor.<ref>{{TI|Story}}, p. 212</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
{{Gallery
|title=Radagast in adaptations
|height=150
|width=250
|lines=2
|File:Radagast (Mithril LR3).png|Radagast as a [[Mithril Miniatures|Mithril Miniature]]
|File:War in Middle Earth - Radagast, Frodo and Sam.png|Radagast in ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien's War in Middle Earth]]''
|File:Decipher - Radagast.JPG|Radagast in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]''
|File:Radagast (LOTRSBG).jpg|Radagast in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game]]''
|File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Radagast.jpg|Radagast in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
|File:Radagast in LOTR- War in the North-1.png|Radagast in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''
|File:The Hobbit - An Unexpected Journey - Radagast.jpg|Radagast in [[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' (film series)]]
|File:Radagast the Brown with Sebastian.png|"Radagast the Brown with Sebastian" in ''[[The Hobbit Strategy Battle Game]]''
}}
===Films===
'''2001: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]'':'''
:Radagast is entirely omitted. Without Radagast's involvement, [[Gandalf]] goes to [[Isengard]] of his own accord (because he wanted counsel from [[Saruman]]) and is able to escape from the pinnacle of [[Orthanc]] by speaking to a moth who sends for the help of the [[Eagles]].

'''2012: ''[[The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey]]'':'''
:Although Radagast is only briefly mentioned in ''The Hobbit'', Radagast features in ''The Hobbit'' films and is played by [[Sylvester McCoy]].<ref name="IMCasting">{{webcite|author=[[Ian McKellen]]|articleurl=http://www.mckellen.com/cinema/hobbit-movie/110510.htm|articlename=2 Elves and another wizard|dated=10-May-2011|website=[http://www.mckellen.com/ Ian McKellen's website]|accessed=23-Dec-2011}}</ref> He is highly eccentric and somewhat absent-minded, and also uses a sled pulled by several large [[rabbits]] (which he refers to as '[[Rhosgobel]] Rabbits') as his main means of transportation.

:After discovering that a shadow has fallen on [[Mirkwood|Greenwood the Great]] (having had to heal his hedgehog friend [[Sebastian]] because of its power), Radagast enters [[Dol Guldur]] and is attacked by the [[Witch-king]]. He finds that the fortress is occupied by a [[Sauron#Sauron's Return|Necromancer]] and travels to inform Gandalf. He finds [[Thorin and Company]] just west of [[Rivendell]] and hands Gandalf a [[Morgul-knife|morgul blade]]. He draws a pack of [[Wargs]] and their [[Orcs|Orc]] riders away on his rabbit-pulled sled so that Thorin and Company can flee in safety.

'''2013: ''[[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug]]'':'''
:Radagast briefly appears, investigating the [[High Fells of Rhudaur|High Fells]] with Gandalf, and accompanying him to Dol Guldur. Gandalf then dispatches him to send news of what they've found to [[Galadriel]], while Gandalf enters the fortress ruins alone.

'''2014: ''[[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]]'':'''
:Radagast first appears when he comes in Dol Guldur during the [[Attack on Dol Guldur|attack]] by the [[White Council]] to take the weakened Gandalf to safety. After they escape, Gandalf requests a horse, takes Radagast's staff and also commands him to summon 'bird and beast' for the impending [[Battle of Five Armies|battle]]. He arrives with the Eagles late in the battle along with [[Beorn]]. They demolish the Orc forces and effectively help end the Battle of Five Armies.

===Radio series===
'''1981: ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|BBC Radio's The Lord of the Ring]]'':'''
:[[Donald Gee]] provided the voice of Radagast. He is introduced much earlier than in the book because his meeting with Gandalf is given chronologically.

'''2001: [[Pán prsteňov (2001-2003 Slovak radio series)|''Pán prsteňov'' (2001-2003 Slovak radio series)]]:'''
:The voice of Radagast the Brown is provided by Vlado Černý. He appears briefly in a flashback scene, when Gandalf is recounting his meeting with Radagast, and his subsequent visit to Saruman, imprisonment and eventual escape from Orthanc.

===Games===
'''1987-: ''[[Mithril Miniatures]]'':'''
:Radagast has been issued in a couple of different versions: figure LR3 "Radagast the Brown" is seen with a cat and an owl;<ref>[http://www.mithril.ie/races/index_wizards.html Mithril wizards Miniatures] at [http://www.mithril.ie/ Mithril.ie] (accessed 8 October 2011)</ref> an older version of the figure portrays Radagast without beard and with a different bird.<ref>[http://www.twilighttangents.com/minis_lotr_mith.htm Lord of the Rings (Mithril)] at [http://www.twilighttangents.com/index.html TwilightTangents.com] (accessed 8 October 2011; cf. [http://www.twilighttangents.com/images/art/radagast01.jpg Radgast (image)])</ref> There is also a "Radagast Mounted" (MS539), where Radagast (again without beard) is portrayed mounted on a horse.<ref>[http://mithril.ie/Fellowship/ms539_radagast.html 32mm Fellowship Figures - MS539 Radagast Mounted] at [http://www.mithril.ie/ Mithril.ie] (accessed 8 October 2011)</ref>

'''1988: ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien's War in Middle Earth]]'':'''
:Radagast is a non-playable character in this game.

'''2001-: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game]]'':'''
:The hero figure [[:File:SBG - Radagast.jpeg|Radagast the Brown]], is a user of subtle magics, in contrast to the more overt kinds used by Gandalf and Saruman. However, he has some unique powers nonetheless.<ref>[http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1060255 Radagast the Brown] at [http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp Games-Workshop-com] (accessed 8 October 2011)</ref>

'''2011-2010: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game]]'':'''
:A Decipher card was made by [[Weta Workshop|Weta]], with Weta's John Harding posing as Radagast.<ref>{{webcite|author=Kathy McCracken|articleurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20080906171452/http://www.decipher.com/content/2004/07/072204lotrwetacasting.html|articlename=The Making of the Weta "Book Cards": Casting and Costuming|dated=22-July-2004|website=[http://archive.org/ Internet Archive: Wayback Machine]|accessed=30-June-2012}}</ref>

'''2007-: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:In the distant past Radagast, "Master of Shapes", had taught the ancestors of the [[Beornings]] the art of skin-changing. During his stay in [[Rhosgobel]], Radagast had come across [[Gollum]] who was stealing and eating the babies of the [[Woodmen]] and banished him from the [[Vales of Anduin]], causing Gollum to crawl inside the caverns of the [[Misty Mountains]]. In early {{TA|3018}}, Radagast, on his way to see [[Saruman]], visits [[Grimbeorn]] and bids him to send one of his children with a message for [[Aragorn]] in [[Bree-land]].

:In the present, Radagast is first found in Ost Guruth, a small settlement of men in the [[Lone-lands]] north of the [[Great Road]]. He is friendly to the local people, the Eglain, and helps them to combat the rise of evil in the swamps of Agamaur.<ref>[http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/NPC:Radagast_the_Brown NPC: Radagast the Brown] at [http://my.lotro.com/home/ My.Lotro.com] (accessed 8 October 2011)</ref> After the [[War of the Ring]], he tasks the player with ways of helping the living creatures around them. Radagast eventually settles back in Rhosgobel now that evil thatis departing the forest.

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:The characters [[Eradan]], [[Farin]] and [[Andriel]] travel to Mirkwood in search of Radagast and arrive just in time to rescue him from the Spider Queen, Saenathra. He thanks them for the rescue and provides them with information about the Dragon Urgost.<ref>[http://www.warinthenorth.com/index.php/the-game/allies Allies] at [http://www.warinthenorth.com/ WarintheNorth.com] (accessed 8 October 2011)</ref>

'''2012-: ''[[The Hobbit Strategy Battle Game]]'':'''
:Radagast, based on [[Peter Jackson]]'s [[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'']], is a hero figurine in two different versions: the standard model "Radagast the Brown with [[Sebastian]]",<ref>{{webcite|author=|articleurl=http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat970003a&prodId=prod1870030a|articlename=Radagast the Brown with Sebastian|dated=|website=[http://www.games-workshop.com/ Games-Workshop.com]|accessed=30 January 2013}}</ref> and a limited model sold with the box ''The Hobbit: Escape from Goblin Town''.<ref>{{webcite|author=|articleurl=http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat970009a&prodId=prod1820008a|articlename=The Hobbit: Escape from Goblin Town - Limited Edition|dated=|website=[http://www.games-workshop.com/ Games-Workshop.com]|accessed=30 January 2013}}</ref>

==See also==
*"[[Radagast/Failure|Did Radagast fail?]]"

==External links==
*[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-happened-to-radagast-the-brown-after-the-war-of-the-ring/ What Happened to Radagast the Brown after the War of the Ring?] by [[Michael Martinez]]

{{references}}
{{Ainur}}
{{hobbitfilms}}
[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Maiar]]
[[Category:Names]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[Category:Wizards]]

[[de:Radagast]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/ainur/maiar/istari/radagast]]
[[fi:Radagast]]

Talk:Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-05-29T11:44:47Z

Spearwielder: /* Move to List of poems in The Lord of the Rings */ Reply

==Titles of poems/songs==
Do we want uppercase first letters of the first words in the poems/songs? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 18:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

==Name of article==
Rename as "Poems and songs in The Lord of the Rings"? Or can a song be said to be a kind of poem (at least in this context)? This question is also linked to how we should categorize the individual articles.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 19:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

== Titles? or first lines? ==

Before 2005, the index for LOTR had listed poems and songs by titles assigned to them. After 2005, the index restructured by Hammond & Scull lists poems and songs only by their respective first lines. The problem I see is that this page on this site combines the two rather than using only one or the other. In addition, this page has no explanation of the differences or why there is a difference.
[[User:Ed8r|Ed8r]] ([[User talk:Ed8r|talk]]) 15:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

:Hello there [[User:Ed8r|Ed8r]].
:All poems listed on Tolkien Gateway are titled by their name '''where we have one''', otherwise we use their opening line. I do not think it causes anyone difficulty in finding poems but it is certainly something to be reviewed for inconsistencies in application.
:As for the ordering of poems on this page specifically, if that is something you are referring to, they are simply ordered by appearance. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
::I think I see what [[User:Ed8r|Ed8r]] is referring to. I grabbed a pre-2005 edition and it does indeed list the poems by both their title, and separately they are listed by the first lines, whereas my newer edition simply lists the first lines. This quote from [[Wayne Hammond|Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull|Scull]] makes me think the titles were left off simply due to space "although this new index is greatly enlarged compared with its predecessor, some constraints on its length were necessary so that it might fit comfortably after the Appendices." I think if anyone should go above and beyond it should be us, especially as we aren't constrained by space, so I'm in favor of listing both the first lines and the original title. We can format it in a sortable table such as [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Sorting this example] so the visitor can choose what their preference is. As to whether we should move each poem's article to its respective original title, that I'm on the fence on. If someone is willing to help lookup the original titles and match them with the first lines, I can assist with the formatting of it into a table. [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 15:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
:::I think that's a great idea. I wish I could offer to help, but currently I have other life events requiring my time. :(
:::[[User:Ed8r|Ed8r]] ([[User talk:Ed8r|talk]]) 16:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
::::One thing we could do very quickly is create redirects; Opening lines > Poems with titles [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

== Two more columns in table? ==

I'm highly tempted to add two more columns to the table: "Composed by" and "Spoken, sung, or written by". What do people think? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

:It would be good information in the article. My concern is that wide tables get unwieldy on mobile (Wikipedia doesn't have a good solution to this either). In any case, I'd say we should finish putting the rest of the list into table format before worrying about this. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 18:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
::I thought there might be something like that--and maybe some of the titles need to be shortened. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 12:47, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Would making it look like [[User:Spearwielder/sandbox]] be worth the effort? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 22:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

:That looks good to me. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

== Move to List of poems in The Lord of the Rings ==

[[List of poems in The Lord of the Rings]] is clearer, and avoids confusion with [[Poems from The Lord of the Rings]].

[[User:NotJesper|NotJesper]] ([[User talk:NotJesper|talk]]) 20:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
:I disagree. A disambig notice could be put up instead.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 21:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
:I agree, articles that are primarily a list should have "List" in the title. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 23:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
:Many articles that are categorised as [[:Category:Lists|lists]] are not titled "List of…" and I do not think they need it.
:
:The improvements to the table on this page had been great, but I there is scope to add more to this article and include some analysis too. It doesn’t have to just be a list. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 07:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
::Partially agree.
::I think there is room for an article about Poetry in The Lord of the Rings. (Weirdly, Wikipedia has a really long article about the subject, so we're really getting beat at our own game.) However, such an article should be a separate article, since the list is already quite long.
::Moving to [[List of poems in The Lord of the Rings]] would also resolve the disambiguation on the top of the page.
::As Pachyderminator wrote, every article that is primarily a list should have "List of" in the title. That's the naming convention every other Wiki uses, including 90% of our own lists, and anything else is just silly. [[User:NotJesper|NotJesper]] ([[User talk:NotJesper|talk]]) 17:01, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
:::I agree with "List of" for this article and for [[Poems in The Hobbit]], though I don't feel really strongly about it. I also agree that there should a separate article about the poems. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 11:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
:::I disagree with moving the page because saying that it is a list in the page name is redundent when the page already explains that it is a list. Also, it doesn't matter what the convention is on other wikis because other wikis cover their own topics and have their own policies.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 20:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
::::I'd rather have "list" in the title than in the article text. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 11:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Song of Eärendil

2024-05-29T11:07:18Z

Spearwielder: different example, atypicality of first four lines

[[File:Anke Eißmann - Frodo's dream of Eärendil.jpg|thumb|''Frodo's dream of Eärendil'' by [[Anke Eißmann]]]]

The '''''Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="Final">{{HM|RC}}, p. 210-3</ref> also known as '''''The Short Lay of Eärendel: Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="F">{{TI|V}}, pp. 102-3, Note 26</ref> was a song written by [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and [[Aragorn]], and sung by Bilbo when the [[Hobbits]] reached [[Rivendell]].<ref>{{FR|Meetings}}</ref>

It is believed that the song is a reworking of an earlier nonsensical poem ''[[Errantry]]'', most likely also composed by Bilbo after his return from the [[Quest for Erebor]], lightheartedly incorporating Elvish elements. Perhaps because Bilbo was proud of ''Errantry'''s metrical devices, he transformed and (incongruously) applied that poem to the legends of the [[First Age]].<ref>{{ATB|Foreword}}</ref>

==Division of the poem==
# An introduction to [[Eärendil]] and the building of his [[Vingilot|ship]]
# A detailed description of him, the final line of which was supposedly influenced by [[Aragorn]]
# A description of his fruitless wanderings in search of [[Valinor]]
# How [[Elwing]] his wife flew to him in the form of a bird and bound the jewel to his forehead
# How he found Valinor
# Concerning his stay there
# How they built a new ship for him, and how [[Varda|Elbereth]] gave him wings
# How he left Valinor
# How he passed over [[Middle-earth]] and became a [[Star of Eärendil|star]]

==Meter and assonance==
The meter is iambic tetrameter, like that of many of the poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Like "Errantry", the poem also includes trisyllabic assonances.<ref name=l133/> These are units of three syllables in which the first and third syllables of one unit, which are accented, rhyme or off-rhyme with the first and third syllables of another. The off-rhymes are typically assonances, that is, matching vowel sounds, though some only have similar vowels, and often the consonants are similar or the same as well.

For example,

<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
The winds of wrath came driving him, and blindly in the foam he fled from west to east and errandless, unheralded he homeward sped. 
</poem>

Here "fled" rhymes with "sped", but in addition, the vowel of "foam" is the same as the first vowel of "homeward". Thus the matching units are "foam he fled" and "homeward sped". Another pair of matching units is "driving him" and "blindly in". Another is "errandless" and "[un]heralded".

The pattern is the same throughout the poem. In every set of four lines, the last three syllables of the first line match the second, third and fourth of the second line. The third and fourth lines have the same kind of matching. And the last three syllables of the second line match those of the fourth line, usually with an exact rhyme at the end.

Some American and Canadian readers may need it pointed out that in the standard pronunciation of England ("Received Pronunciation"), "paths" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "Tarmenel", and the second syllable of "beyond" has the same vowel as "strong". Likewise the first syllable of "arrows" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "dragon", "again" has the same accented vowel as "away", and "saw" has the same vowel as "shore".

An example where the vowels don't match exactly is "across" and "passed", though the sounds are similar and the "s" is repeated. The first four lines are especially atypical.

==The poem==
<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
[[Eärendil]] was a mariner that tarried in [[Arvernien]]; he built a boat of timber felled in [[Nimbrethil]] to journey in; her sails he wove of silver fair, of silver were her lanterns made, her prow was fashioned like a swan, and light upon her banners laid. In panoply of ancient kings, in chainéd rings he armoured him; his shining shield was scored with runes to ward all wounds and harm from him; his bow was made of dragon-horn, his arrows shorn of ebony; of silver was his habergeon, his scabbard of chalcedony; his sword of steel was valiant, of adamant his helmet tall, an eagle-plume upon his crest, upon his breast an emerald. Beneath the Moon and under star he wandered far from northern strands, bewildered on enchanted ways beyond the days of mortal lands. From gnashing of the [[Narrow Ice]] where shadow lies on frozen hills, from nether heats and burning waste he turned in haste, and roving still on starless waters far astray at last he came to Night of Naught, and passed, and never sight he saw of shining shore nor light he sought. The winds of wrath came driving him, and blindly in the foam he fled from west to east and errandless, unheralded he homeward sped. There flying [[Elwing]] came to him, and flame was in the darkness lit; more bright than light of diamond the fire upon her carcanet. The [[Silmaril]] she bound on him and crowned him with the living light and dauntless then with burning brow he turned his prow; and in the night from Otherworld beyond the Sea there strong and free a storm arose, a wind of power in [[Tarmenel]]; by paths that seldom mortal goes his boat it bore with biting breath as might of death across the grey and long forsaken seas distressed; from east to west he passed away. Through Evernight he back was borne on black and roaring waves that ran o'er leagues unlit and foundered shores that drowned before the Days began, until he heard on strands of pearl where ends the world the music long, where ever-foaming billows roll the yellow gold and jewels wan. He saw the Mountain silent rise where twilight lies upon the knees of [[Valinor]], and [[Eldamar]] beheld afar beyond the seas. A wanderer escaped from night to haven white he came at last, to Elvenhome the green and fair where keen the air, where pale as glass beneath the Hill of [[Ilmarin]] a-glimmer in a valley sheer the lamplit towers of [[Tirion]] are mirrored on the Shadowmere. He tarried there from errantry, and melodies they taught to him, and sages old him marvels told, and harps of gold they brought to him. They clothed him then in elven-white, and seven lights before him sent, as through the [[Calacirian]] to hidden land forlorn he went. He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years, and endless reigns the [[Elder King]] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer; and words unheard were spoken then of folk of [[Men]] and [[elves|Elven-kin]], beyond the world were visions showed forbid to those that dwell therein. A ship then new they built for him of mithril and of elven-glass with shining prow; no shaven oar nor sail she bore on silver mast: the Silmaril as lantern light and banner bright with living flame to gleam thereon by [[Varda|Elbereth]] herself was set, who thither came and wings immortal made for him, and laid on him undying doom, to sail the shoreless skies and come behind the [[Sun]] and light of [[Moon]]. From [[Evereven|Evereven's]] lofty hills where softly silver fountains fall his wings him bore, a wandering light, beyond the mighty [[Mountain Wall]]. From World's End there he turned away, and yearned again to find afar his home through shadows journeying, and burning as an island star on high above the mists he came, a distant flame before the Sun, a wonder ere the waking dawn where grey the Norland waters run. And over [[Middle-earth]] he passed and heard at last the weeping sore of women and of elven-maids in [[Elder Days]], in years of yore. But on him mighty doom was laid, till Moon should fade, an orbéd star to pass, and tarry never more on [[Hither Shore|Hither Shores]] where [[Mortals]] are; for ever still a herald on an errand that should never rest to bear his shining lamp afar, the Flammifer of [[Westernesse]].</poem>

==Inspiration==
''Eärendil'' derives from Tolkien's earlier poem ''[[Errantry]]'' (published [[1933]]). In the drafts of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', ''Errantry'' evolved in stages, and reached its final published form after fifteen revisions.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. xxiii</ref> ''Errantry'' was eventually republished in ''[[The Adventures of Tom Bombadil]]''. Both ''Errantry'' and ''Eärendil'' use a meter of Tolkien's own invention: trisyllabic assonances or near-assonances.<ref name=l133>{{L|133}}</ref><ref name=ABcomm>{{AB|Comm}}</ref> This fact passed into the legendarium, as the Preface to ''The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'' says that Bilbo was probably proud of his meter and used it as a model for ''Earendil''.

==Other versions of the Legendarium==
Among the various versions of the poem, there is one version which [[Christopher Tolkien]] believed that his father most likely intended for publication instead of the above version, which was published in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''.<ref name="F"/><ref name="Final"/>

==See also==
* [[Errantry]]
* [[The Lay of Eärendel]]
* [[Poems in The Lord of the Rings|Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings'']]

==External links==
*[http://www.councilofelrond.com/poem/the-short-lay-of-earendel-earendillinwe/ Eärendillinwë], the latest form of the Song of Eärendil, which was not published in ''Fellowship''

{{references}}

[[Category:Poems in The Fellowship of the Ring]]
[[Category:Songs]]
[[de:Lied über Earendil]]
[[fi:Eärendil, kyntäjä merien]]

Song of Eärendil

2024-05-28T13:26:58Z

Spearwielder: tweaks

[[File:Anke Eißmann - Frodo's dream of Eärendil.jpg|thumb|''Frodo's dream of Eärendil'' by [[Anke Eißmann]]]]

The '''''Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="Final">{{HM|RC}}, p. 210-3</ref> also known as '''''The Short Lay of Eärendel: Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="F">{{TI|V}}, pp. 102-3, Note 26</ref> and '''Eärendil was a mariner'''<ref>{{RK|I1}}</ref>, was a song written by [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and [[Aragorn]], and sung by Bilbo when the [[Hobbits]] reached [[Rivendell]].<ref>{{FR|Meetings}}</ref>

It is believed that the song is a reworking of an earlier nonsensical poem ''[[Errantry]]'', most likely also composed by Bilbo after his return from the [[Quest for Erebor]], lightheartedly incorporating Elvish elements. Perhaps because Bilbo was proud of ''Errantry'''s metrical devices, he transformed and (incongruously) applied that poem to the legends of the [[First Age]].<ref>{{ATB|Foreword}}</ref>

==Division of the poem==
# An introduction to [[Eärendil]] and the building of his [[Vingilot|ship]]
# A detailed description of him, the final line of which was supposedly influenced by [[Aragorn]]
# A description of his fruitless wanderings in search of [[Valinor]]
# How [[Elwing]] his wife flew to him in the form of a bird and bound the jewel to his forehead
# How he found Valinor
# Concerning his stay there
# How they built a new ship for him, and how [[Varda|Elbereth]] gave him wings
# How he left Valinor
# How he passed over [[Middle-earth]] and became a [[Star of Eärendil|star]]

==Meter and assonance==
The meter is iambic tetrameter, like that of many of the poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Like "Errantry", the poem also includes trisyllabic assonances.<ref name=l133/> These are units of three syllables in which the first and third syllables of one unit, which are accented, rhyme or off-rhyme with the first and third syllables of another. The off-rhymes are typically assonances, that is, matching vowel sounds, though some only have similar vowels, and often the consonants are similar or the same as well.

For example,

<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
from Otherworld beyond the Sea there strong and free a storm arose, a wind of power in [[Tarmenel]]; by paths that seldom mortal goes 
</poem>

Here "arose" rhymes with "goes", but in addition, the first vowel of "mortal" is the same as that of "storm". Thus the matching units are "mortal goes" and "storm arose". Another pair of matching units is "[be]yond the Sea" and "strong and free". Another is "Tarmenel" and "paths that sel[dom]".

The pattern is the same throughout the poem. In every set of four lines, the last three syllables of the first line match the second, third and fourth of the second line. The third and fourth lines have the same kind of matching. And the last three syllables of the second line match those of the fourth line, usually with an exact rhyme at the end.

Some American and Canadian readers may need to be reminded that in the standard pronunciation of England ("Received Pronunciation"), "paths" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "Tarmenel", and the second syllable of "beyond" has the same vowel as "strong". Likewise the first syllable of "arrows" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "dragon", "again" has the same accented vowel as "away", and "saw" has the same vowel as "shore". An example where the vowels don't match exactly is "across" and "passed", though the sounds are similar and the "s" is repeated.
==The poem==
<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
[[Eärendil]] was a mariner that tarried in [[Arvernien]]; he built a boat of timber felled in [[Nimbrethil]] to journey in; her sails he wove of silver fair, of silver were her lanterns made, her prow was fashioned like a swan, and light upon her banners laid. In panoply of ancient kings, in chainéd rings he armoured him; his shining shield was scored with runes to ward all wounds and harm from him; his bow was made of dragon-horn, his arrows shorn of ebony; of silver was his habergeon, his scabbard of chalcedony; his sword of steel was valiant, of adamant his helmet tall, an eagle-plume upon his crest, upon his breast an emerald. Beneath the Moon and under star he wandered far from northern strands, bewildered on enchanted ways beyond the days of mortal lands. From gnashing of the [[Narrow Ice]] where shadow lies on frozen hills, from nether heats and burning waste he turned in haste, and roving still on starless waters far astray at last he came to Night of Naught, and passed, and never sight he saw of shining shore nor light he sought. The winds of wrath came driving him, and blindly in the foam he fled from west to east and errandless, unheralded he homeward sped. There flying [[Elwing]] came to him, and flame was in the darkness lit; more bright than light of diamond the fire upon her carcanet. The [[Silmaril]] she bound on him and crowned him with the living light and dauntless then with burning brow he turned his prow; and in the night from Otherworld beyond the Sea there strong and free a storm arose, a wind of power in [[Tarmenel]]; by paths that seldom mortal goes his boat it bore with biting breath as might of death across the grey and long forsaken seas distressed; from east to west he passed away. Through Evernight he back was borne on black and roaring waves that ran o'er leagues unlit and foundered shores that drowned before the Days began, until he heard on strands of pearl where ends the world the music long, where ever-foaming billows roll the yellow gold and jewels wan. He saw the Mountain silent rise where twilight lies upon the knees of [[Valinor]], and [[Eldamar]] beheld afar beyond the seas. A wanderer escaped from night to haven white he came at last, to Elvenhome the green and fair where keen the air, where pale as glass beneath the Hill of [[Ilmarin]] a-glimmer in a valley sheer the lamplit towers of [[Tirion]] are mirrored on the Shadowmere. He tarried there from errantry, and melodies they taught to him, and sages old him marvels told, and harps of gold they brought to him. They clothed him then in elven-white, and seven lights before him sent, as through the [[Calacirian]] to hidden land forlorn he went. He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years, and endless reigns the [[Elder King]] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer; and words unheard were spoken then of folk of [[Men]] and [[elves|Elven-kin]], beyond the world were visions showed forbid to those that dwell therein. A ship then new they built for him of mithril and of elven-glass with shining prow; no shaven oar nor sail she bore on silver mast: the Silmaril as lantern light and banner bright with living flame to gleam thereon by [[Varda|Elbereth]] herself was set, who thither came and wings immortal made for him, and laid on him undying doom, to sail the shoreless skies and come behind the [[Sun]] and light of [[Moon]]. From [[Evereven|Evereven's]] lofty hills where softly silver fountains fall his wings him bore, a wandering light, beyond the mighty [[Mountain Wall]]. From World's End there he turned away, and yearned again to find afar his home through shadows journeying, and burning as an island star on high above the mists he came, a distant flame before the Sun, a wonder ere the waking dawn where grey the Norland waters run. And over [[Middle-earth]] he passed and heard at last the weeping sore of women and of elven-maids in [[Elder Days]], in years of yore. But on him mighty doom was laid, till Moon should fade, an orbéd star to pass, and tarry never more on [[Hither Shore|Hither Shores]] where [[Mortals]] are; for ever still a herald on an errand that should never rest to bear his shining lamp afar, the Flammifer of [[Westernesse]].</poem>

==Inspiration==
''Eärendil'' derives from Tolkien's earlier poem ''[[Errantry]]'' (published [[1933]]). In the drafts of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', ''Errantry'' evolved in stages, and reached its final published form after fifteen revisions.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. xxiii</ref> ''Errantry'' was eventually republished in ''[[The Adventures of Tom Bombadil]]''. Both ''Errantry'' and ''Eärendil'' use a meter of Tolkien's own invention: trisyllabic assonances or near-assonances.<ref name=l133>{{L|133}}</ref><ref name=ABcomm>{{AB|Comm}}</ref> This fact passed into the legendarium, as the Preface to ''The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'' says that Bilbo was probably proud of his meter and used it as a model for ''Earendil''.

==Other versions of the Legendarium==
Among the various versions of the poem, there is one version which [[Christopher Tolkien]] believed that his father most likely intended for publication instead of the above version, which was published in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''.<ref name="F"/><ref name="Final"/>

==See also==
* [[Errantry]]
* [[The Lay of Eärendel]]
* [[Poems in The Lord of the Rings|Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings'']]

==External links==
*[http://www.councilofelrond.com/poem/the-short-lay-of-earendel-earendillinwe/ Eärendillinwë], the latest form of the Song of Eärendil, which was not published in ''Fellowship''

{{references}}

[[Category:Poems in The Fellowship of the Ring]]
[[Category:Songs]]
[[de:Lied über Earendil]]
[[fi:Eärendil, kyntäjä merien]]

Song of Eärendil

2024-05-28T12:34:29Z

Spearwielder: Meter and detailed description of assonance

[[File:Anke Eißmann - Frodo's dream of Eärendil.jpg|thumb|''Frodo's dream of Eärendil'' by [[Anke Eißmann]]]]

The '''''Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="Final">{{HM|RC}}, p. 210-3</ref> also known as '''''The Short Lay of Eärendel: Eärendillinwë''''',<ref name="F">{{TI|V}}, pp. 102-3, Note 26</ref> and '''Eärendil was a mariner'''<ref>{{RK|I1}}</ref>, was a song written by [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and [[Aragorn]], and sung by Bilbo when the [[Hobbits]] reached [[Rivendell]].<ref>{{FR|Meetings}}</ref>

It is believed that the song is a reworking of an earlier nonsensical poem ''[[Errantry]]'', most likely also composed by Bilbo after his return from the [[Quest for Erebor]], lightheartedly incorporating Elvish elements. Perhaps because Bilbo was proud of ''Errantry'''s metrical devices, he transformed and (incongruously) applied that poem to the legends of the [[First Age]].<ref>{{ATB|Foreword}}</ref>

==Division of the poem==
# An introduction to [[Eärendil]] and the building of his [[Vingilot|ship]]
# A detailed description of him, the final line of which was supposedly influenced by [[Aragorn]]
# A description of his fruitless wanderings in search of [[Valinor]]
# How [[Elwing]] his wife flew to him in the form of a bird and bound the jewel to his forehead
# How he found Valinor
# Concerning his stay there
# How they built a new ship for him, and how [[Varda|Elbereth]] gave him wings
# How he left Valinor
# How he passed over [[Middle-earth]] and became a [[Star of Eärendil|star]]

==Meter and assonance==
The meter is iambic tetrameter, like that of many of the poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''. Like "Errantry", he poem also includes trisyllabic assonances.<ref name=l133/> These are units of three syllables in which the first and third syllables of one unit, which are accented, rhyme or off-rhyme with the first and third syllables of another. The off-rhymes are typically assonances, that is, matching vowel sounds, though some only have similar vowels, and often the consonants are similar or the same as well.

For example,

<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
from Otherworld beyond the Sea there strong and free a storm arose, a wind of power in [[Tarmenel]]; by paths that seldom mortal goes 
</poem>

Here "arose" rhymes with "goes", but in addition, the first vowel of "mortal" is the same as that of "storm". Thus the matching units are "mortal goes" and "storm arose". Another pair of matching units is "[be]yond the Sea" and "strong and free". Another is "Tarmenel" and "paths that sel[dom]".

The pattern is the same throughout the poem. In every set of four lines, the last three syllables of the first line match the second, third and fourth of the second line. The third and fourth lines have the same kind of matching. And the last three syllables of the second line match those of the fourth line, usually with an exact rhyme at the end.

Some American readers may need to be reminded that in the standard pronunciation of England ("Received Pronunciation"), "paths" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "Tarmenel", and the second syllable of "beyond" has the same vowel as "strong". Likewise the first syllable of "arrows" has the same vowel as the first syllable of "dragon", and "saw" has the same vowel as "shore". An example where the vowels don't match exactly is "across" and "passed", though the sounds are similar and the "s" is repeated.

==The poem==
<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
[[Eärendil]] was a mariner that tarried in [[Arvernien]]; he built a boat of timber felled in [[Nimbrethil]] to journey in; her sails he wove of silver fair, of silver were her lanterns made, her prow was fashioned like a swan, and light upon her banners laid. In panoply of ancient kings, in chainéd rings he armoured him; his shining shield was scored with runes to ward all wounds and harm from him; his bow was made of dragon-horn, his arrows shorn of ebony; of silver was his habergeon, his scabbard of chalcedony; his sword of steel was valiant, of adamant his helmet tall, an eagle-plume upon his crest, upon his breast an emerald. Beneath the Moon and under star he wandered far from northern strands, bewildered on enchanted ways beyond the days of mortal lands. From gnashing of the [[Narrow Ice]] where shadow lies on frozen hills, from nether heats and burning waste he turned in haste, and roving still on starless waters far astray at last he came to Night of Naught, and passed, and never sight he saw of shining shore nor light he sought. The winds of wrath came driving him, and blindly in the foam he fled from west to east and errandless, unheralded he homeward sped. There flying [[Elwing]] came to him, and flame was in the darkness lit; more bright than light of diamond the fire upon her carcanet. The [[Silmaril]] she bound on him and crowned him with the living light and dauntless then with burning brow he turned his prow; and in the night from Otherworld beyond the Sea there strong and free a storm arose, a wind of power in [[Tarmenel]]; by paths that seldom mortal goes his boat it bore with biting breath as might of death across the grey and long forsaken seas distressed; from east to west he passed away. Through Evernight he back was borne on black and roaring waves that ran o'er leagues unlit and foundered shores that drowned before the Days began, until he heard on strands of pearl where ends the world the music long, where ever-foaming billows roll the yellow gold and jewels wan. He saw the Mountain silent rise where twilight lies upon the knees of [[Valinor]], and [[Eldamar]] beheld afar beyond the seas. A wanderer escaped from night to haven white he came at last, to Elvenhome the green and fair where keen the air, where pale as glass beneath the Hill of [[Ilmarin]] a-glimmer in a valley sheer the lamplit towers of [[Tirion]] are mirrored on the Shadowmere. He tarried there from errantry, and melodies they taught to him, and sages old him marvels told, and harps of gold they brought to him. They clothed him then in elven-white, and seven lights before him sent, as through the [[Calacirian]] to hidden land forlorn he went. He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years, and endless reigns the [[Elder King]] in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer; and words unheard were spoken then of folk of [[Men]] and [[elves|Elven-kin]], beyond the world were visions showed forbid to those that dwell therein. A ship then new they built for him of mithril and of elven-glass with shining prow; no shaven oar nor sail she bore on silver mast: the Silmaril as lantern light and banner bright with living flame to gleam thereon by [[Varda|Elbereth]] herself was set, who thither came and wings immortal made for him, and laid on him undying doom, to sail the shoreless skies and come behind the [[Sun]] and light of [[Moon]]. From [[Evereven|Evereven's]] lofty hills where softly silver fountains fall his wings him bore, a wandering light, beyond the mighty [[Mountain Wall]]. From World's End there he turned away, and yearned again to find afar his home through shadows journeying, and burning as an island star on high above the mists he came, a distant flame before the Sun, a wonder ere the waking dawn where grey the Norland waters run. And over [[Middle-earth]] he passed and heard at last the weeping sore of women and of elven-maids in [[Elder Days]], in years of yore. But on him mighty doom was laid, till Moon should fade, an orbéd star to pass, and tarry never more on [[Hither Shore|Hither Shores]] where [[Mortals]] are; for ever still a herald on an errand that should never rest to bear his shining lamp afar, the Flammifer of [[Westernesse]].</poem>

==Inspiration==
''Eärendil'' derives from Tolkien's earlier poem ''[[Errantry]]'' (published [[1933]]). In the drafts of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', ''Errantry'' evolved in stages, and reached its final published form after fifteen revisions.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. xxiii</ref> ''Errantry'' was eventually republished in ''[[The Adventures of Tom Bombadil]]''. Both ''Errantry'' and ''Eärendil'' use a meter of Tolkien's own invention: trisyllabic assonances or near-assonances.<ref name=l133>{{L|133}}</ref><ref name=ABcomm>{{AB|Comm}}</ref> This fact passed into the legendarium, as the Preface to ''The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'' says that Bilbo was probably proud of his meter and used it as a model for ''Earendil''.

==Other versions of the Legendarium==
Among the various versions of the poem, there is one version which [[Christopher Tolkien]] believed that his father most likely intended for publication instead of the above version, which was published in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''.<ref name="F"/><ref name="Final"/>

==See also==
* [[Errantry]]
* [[The Lay of Eärendel]]
* [[Poems in The Lord of the Rings|Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings'']]

==External links==
*[http://www.councilofelrond.com/poem/the-short-lay-of-earendel-earendillinwe/ Eärendillinwë], the latest form of the Song of Eärendil, which was not published in ''Fellowship''

{{references}}

[[Category:Poems in The Fellowship of the Ring]]
[[Category:Songs]]
[[de:Lied über Earendil]]
[[fi:Eärendil, kyntäjä merien]]

Talk:Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-05-28T11:39:35Z

Spearwielder: /* Move to List of poems in The Lord of the Rings */ Agree with move

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-05-28T11:24:55Z

Spearwielder: tweaks, changed "written" to "composed" because many weren't written by their authors, put Sauron's authorship of "One Ring to rule them all" back in

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This is a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! Title
!First line
!Composed by
!Recited by
!First appearance
|-
|
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]]
| [[Bilbo Baggins]]
|Bilbo
|Book I, chapter 1
|-
|
|[[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]]
|Unknown, includes two lines by [[Sauron]]
|[[Gandalf]]
|Book I, chapter 2
|-
|
| [[A Walking Song|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|Bilbo
|[[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]], [[Samwise Gamgee|Sam]], and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]]
|Book I, chapter 3
|-
|
|[[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]]
|Unknown
|[[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|Book I, chapter 3
|-
|
|[[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]]
|Unknown
|Frodo, Sam, Pippin
|Book I, chapter 4
|-
|
|[[The Bath Song|Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day]]
|Unknown, possibly Bilbo
|Pippin
|Book I, chapter 5
|-
|
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]]
|[[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] and Pippin
|Merry and Pippin
|Book I, chapter 5
|-
|
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]]
|Unknown
|Frodo
|Book I, chapter 6
|-
|
|[[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]]
|[[Tom Bombadil]]
|Tom Bombadil
|Book I, chapter 6
|-
|
|[[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]]
|Tom Bombadil and Goldberry
|Tom Bombadil and [[Goldberry]]
|Book I, chapter 6
|-
|
|[[O slender as a willow-wand!]]
|Frodo
|Frodo
|Book I, chapter 7
|-
|
|[[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]]
|Tom Bombadil
|Tom Bombadil
|Book I, chapter 7
|-
|
|[[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]]
|Tom Bombadil
|Tom Bombadil; later Frodo
|Book I, chapter 7
|-
|
|[[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]]
|Unknown, possibly the [[barrow-wight]]
|A barrow-wight
|Book I, chapter 8
|-
|
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]]
|Tom Bombadil
|Tom Bombadil
|Book I, chapter 8
|-
|
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]]
|Tom Bombadil
|Tom Bombadil
|Book I, chapter 8
|-
|
|[[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]]
|Tom Bombadil
|Tom Bombadil
|Book I, chapter 8
|-
|[[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]]
|There is an inn, a merry old inn
|Bilbo
|Frodo
|Book I, chapter 9
|-
|
|[[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]]
|Bilbo
|Gandalf, in a letter; later Bilbo
|Book I, chapter 10
|-
|[[The Fall of Gil-galad]]
|Gil-galad was an Elven-king
|Unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
|Sam
|Book I, chapter 11
|-
|[[Song of Beren and Lúthien]]
|The leaves were long, the grass was green
|Unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
|Aragorn
|Book I, chapter 11
|-
| [[The Stone Troll]]
|Troll sat alone on his seat of stone
|Sam
|Sam
|Book I, chapter 12
|-
|[[Song of Eärendil|Eärendillinwë]]
|Eärendil was a mariner
|Bilbo
|Bilbo
|Book II, chapter 1
|-
|
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]]
|Unknown elf
|Unknown elf in [[Rivendell]]
|Book II, chapter 1
|-
|
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]]
|Unknown, presumably supernatural
|Voice in dreams
|Book II, chapter 2
|-
|
|[[When winter first begins to bite]]
|Unknown
|Bilbo
|Book II, chapter 3
|-
|
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]]
|Bilbo
|Bilbo
|Book II, chapter 3
|-
|[[Song of Durin]]
|The world was young, the mountains green
|Unknown dwarf
|[[Gimli]]
|Book II, chapter 4
|-
|[[Song of Nimrodel]]
|An Elven-maid there was of old
|Unknown elf
|Legolas
|Book II, chapter 6
|-
|
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]]
|Frodo and Sam
|Frodo and Sam
|Book II, chapter 7
|-
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]]
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold
|[[Galadriel]]
|Galadriel
|Book II, chapter 8
|-
|[[Namárië]]
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen
|Galadriel
|Galadriel
|Book II, chapter 8
|-
|[[Lament for Boromir]]
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
|Aragorn and Legolas
|Aragorn and Legolas
|Book III, chapter 1
|-
|
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]]
|Unknown
|Aragorn
|Book III, chapter 2
|-
|[[Long List of the Ents]]
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
|Unknown; Pippin adds a line
|[[Treebeard]]
|Book III, chapter 4
|-
|
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]]
|Treebeard
|Treebeard
|Book III, chapter 4
|-
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]]
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough
|Unknown elf
|Treebeard
|Book III, chapter 4
|-
|[[Bregalad's Song]]
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê!
|[[Bregalad]]
|Bregalad
|Book III, chapter 4
|-
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]]
|We come, we come with roll of drum
|Unknown ent
|Ents
|Book III, chapter 4
|-
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
|Galadriel
|Gandalf
|Book III, chapter 5
|-
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|Legolas Greenleaf long under tree
|Galadriel
|Gandalf
|Book III, chapter 5
|-
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]]
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
|Unknown [[Rohirrim|Rohirric]] poet
|Aragorn
|Book III, chapter 6
|-
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]]
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien
|Unknown
|Gandalf
|Book III, chapter 6
|-
|
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|Unknown Rohirric poet
|Théoden
|Book III, chapter 6
|-
|
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]]
|Unknown, possibly Gandalf
|Gandalf
|Book III, chapter 8
|-
|[[Rhymes of Lore]]
|Tall ships and tall kings
|Unknown
|Gandalf
|Book III, chapter 11
|-
|
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|[[Gollum]]
|Gollum
|Book IV, chapter 2
|-
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|Grey as a mouse
|Unknown hobbit
|Sam
|Book IV, chapter 3
|-
|
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|[[Malbeth]]
|Aragorn
|Book V, chapter 2
|-
|
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|Unknown Rohirric poet
|
|Book V, chapter 3
|-
|
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|[[Éomer]]
|Éomer
|Book V, chapter 6
|-
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|Unknown Rohirric poet
|
|Book V, chapter 6
|-
|
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|Unknown [[Gondorians|Gondorian]]
|The [[Warden of the Houses of Healing]]
|Book V, chapter 8
|-
|
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|Unknown elf
|Legolas
|Book V, chapter 9
|-
|
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|Sam
|Sam
|Book VI, chapter 1
|-
|
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|Unknown Gondorian
|Men of Gondor
|Book VI, chapter 4
|-
|
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|Unknown elf, probably Legolas
|Legolas
|Book VI, chapter 4
|-
|
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|A great [[Eagle]]
|A great Eagle
|Book VI, chapter 5
|}
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-

|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-05-01T03:20:35Z

Spearwielder: Break a couple of long lines into two

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]], two lines spoken by him later in the original [[Black Speech]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]] sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows Aragorn and Legolas
|[[Lament for Boromir]] each verse sung by its author
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]] unknown
|spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! unknown, probably an elf; Peregrin suggests a line to add
|[[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by [[Treebeard]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]] Treebeard
|sung by Treebeard
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough unknown, maybe an elf
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]] sung by Treebeard
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê! [[Bregalad]]
|[[Bregalad's Song]] sung by Bregalad
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum ents
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]] sung by ents
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar? Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Legolas Greenleaf long under tree Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? an unknown poet of [[Rohan]]
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]] spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien unknown
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]] sung by Gandalf
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] unknown
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]] unknown, possibly Gandalf
|spoken or sung by Gandalf
|-
|Ents the earthborn, old as mountains Treebeard
|an addition to the [[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by Treebeard
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings unknown
|[[Rhymes of Lore]] sung by Gandalf
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]] [[Gollum]]
|sung by Gollum
|-
|Grey as a mouse an unknown hobbit
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]] spoken by Samwise
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]] [[Malbeth]]
|spoken by Aragorn
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]] unknown poet of Rohan
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] Théoden
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]] [[Éomer]]
|spoken by Éomer
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing a future poet ("maker") of Rohan
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]] 
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]] an unknown person of [[Gondor]]
|spoken by the [[Warden of the Houses of Healing]]
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]] an unknown elf
|sung by Legolas
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]] Samwise
|sung by Samwise
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]] men of Gondor
|spoken by men of Gondor
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]] an elf, probably Legolas
|Legolas
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]] possibly an [[Eagle]]
|spoken by an Eagle
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]] probably a poet of Rohan
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]] Bilbo
|sung or spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]] Bilbo, modified by Frodo
|sung by Frodo
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-05-01T03:17:24Z

Spearwielder: /* Book I */ Gandalf quotes the Ring-inscription in the Black Speech

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]], two lines spoken by him later in the original [[Black Speech]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]] sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows Aragorn and Legolas
|[[Lament for Boromir]] each verse sung by its author
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]] unknown
|spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! unknown, probably an elf; Peregrin suggests a line to add
|[[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by [[Treebeard]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]] Treebeard
|sung by Treebeard
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough unknown, maybe an elf
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]] sung by Treebeard
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê! [[Bregalad]]
|[[Bregalad's Song]] sung by Bregalad
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum ents
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]] sung by ents
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar? Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Legolas Greenleaf long under tree Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? an unknown poet of [[Rohan]]
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]] spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien unknown
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]] sung by Gandalf
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] unknown
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]] unknown, possibly Gandalf
|spoken or sung by Gandalf
|-
|Ents the earthborn, old as mountains Treebeard
|an addition to the [[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by Treebeard
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings unknown
|[[Rhymes of Lore]] sung by Gandalf
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]] [[Gollum]]
|sung by Gollum
|-
|Grey as a mouse an unknown hobbit
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]] spoken by Samwise
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]] [[Malbeth]]
|spoken by Aragorn
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]] unknown poet of Rohan
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] Théoden
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]] [[Éomer]]
|spoken by Éomer
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing a future poet ("maker") of Rohan
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]] 
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]] an unknown person of [[Gondor]]
|spoken by the [[Warden of the Houses of Healing]]
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]] an unknown elf
|sung by Legolas
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]] Samwise
|sung by Samwise
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]] men of Gondor
|spoken by men of Gondor
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]] an elf, probably Legolas
|Legolas
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]] possibly an [[Eagle]]
|spoken by an Eagle
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]] probably a poet of Rohan
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]] Bilbo
|sung or spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]] Bilbo, modified by Frodo
|sung by Frodo
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-19T03:51:21Z

Spearwielder: /* Book VI */ authors and "performers"

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]] sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows Aragorn and Legolas
|[[Lament for Boromir]] each verse sung by its author
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]] unknown
|spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! unknown, probably an elf; Peregrin suggests a line to add
|[[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by [[Treebeard]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]] Treebeard
|sung by Treebeard
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough unknown, maybe an elf
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]] sung by Treebeard
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê! [[Bregalad]]
|[[Bregalad's Song]] sung by Bregalad
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum ents
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]] sung by ents
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar? Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Legolas Greenleaf long under tree Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? an unknown poet of [[Rohan]]
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]] spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien unknown
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]] sung by Gandalf
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] unknown
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]] unknown, possibly Gandalf
|spoken or sung by Gandalf
|-
|Ents the earthborn, old as mountains Treebeard
|an addition to the [[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by Treebeard
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings unknown
|[[Rhymes of Lore]] sung by Gandalf
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]] [[Gollum]]
|sung by Gollum
|-
|Grey as a mouse an unknown hobbit
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]] spoken by Samwise
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]] [[Malbeth]]
|spoken by Aragorn
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]] unknown poet of Rohan
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] Théoden
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]] [[Éomer]]
|spoken by Éomer
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing a future poet ("maker") of Rohan
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]] 
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]] an unknown person of [[Gondor]]
|spoken by the [[Warden of the Houses of Healing]]
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]] an unknown elf
|sung by Legolas
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]] Samwise
|sung by Samwise
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]] men of Gondor
|spoken by men of Gondor
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]] an elf, probably Legolas
|Legolas
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]] possibly an [[Eagle]]
|spoken by an Eagle
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]] probably a poet of Rohan
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]] Bilbo
|sung or spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]] Bilbo, modified by Frodo
|sung by Frodo
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-18T04:00:11Z

Spearwielder: /* Book V */ authors and "performers"

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]] sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows Aragorn and Legolas
|[[Lament for Boromir]] each verse sung by its author
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]] unknown
|spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! unknown, probably an elf; Peregrin suggests a line to add
|[[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by [[Treebeard]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]] Treebeard
|sung by Treebeard
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough unknown, maybe an elf
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]] sung by Treebeard
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê! [[Bregalad]]
|[[Bregalad's Song]] sung by Bregalad
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum ents
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]] sung by ents
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar? Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Legolas Greenleaf long under tree Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? an unknown poet of [[Rohan]]
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]] spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien unknown
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]] sung by Gandalf
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] unknown
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]] unknown, possibly Gandalf
|spoken or sung by Gandalf
|-
|Ents the earthborn, old as mountains Treebeard
|an addition to the [[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by Treebeard
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings unknown
|[[Rhymes of Lore]] sung by Gandalf
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]] [[Gollum]]
|sung by Gollum
|-
|Grey as a mouse an unknown hobbit
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]] spoken by Samwise
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]] [[Malbeth]]
|spoken by Aragorn
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]] unknown poet of Rohan
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] Théoden
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]] [[Éomer]]
|spoken by Éomer
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing a future poet ("maker") of Rohan
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]] 
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]] an unknown person of [[Gondor]]
|spoken by the [[Warden of the Houses of Healing]]
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]] an unknown elf
|sung by Legolas
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-17T04:06:42Z

Spearwielder: /* Book IV */ authors and "performers"

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]] sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows Aragorn and Legolas
|[[Lament for Boromir]] each verse sung by its author
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]] unknown
|spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! unknown, probably an elf; Peregrin suggests a line to add
|[[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by [[Treebeard]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]] Treebeard
|sung by Treebeard
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough unknown, maybe an elf
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]] sung by Treebeard
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê! [[Bregalad]]
|[[Bregalad's Song]] sung by Bregalad
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum ents
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]] sung by ents
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar? Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Legolas Greenleaf long under tree Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? an unknown poet of [[Rohan]]
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]] spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien unknown
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]] sung by Gandalf
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] unknown
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]] unknown, possibly Gandalf
|spoken or sung by Gandalf
|-
|Ents the earthborn, old as mountains Treebeard
|an addition to the [[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by Treebeard
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings unknown
|[[Rhymes of Lore]] sung by Gandalf
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]] [[Gollum]]
|sung by Gollum
|-
|Grey as a mouse an unknown hobbit
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]] spoken by Samwise
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-17T04:00:58Z

Spearwielder: /* Book III */ separate listings for "Legolas Greenleaf" and Treebeard's new version of the Long List, move "Arise, arise", authors and "performers"

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]] sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows Aragorn and Legolas
|[[Lament for Boromir]] each verse sung by its author
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]] unknown
|spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! unknown, probably an elf; Peregrin suggests a line to add
|[[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by [[Treebeard]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]] Treebeard
|sung by Treebeard
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough unknown, maybe an elf
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]] sung by Treebeard
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê! [[Bregalad]]
|[[Bregalad's Song]] sung by Bregalad
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum ents
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]] sung by ents
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar? Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Legolas Greenleaf long under tree Galadriel
|[[Galadriel's Messages]] spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? an unknown poet of [[Rohan]]
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]] spoken or sung by Aragorn
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien unknown
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]] sung by Gandalf
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!]] unknown
|spoken by Théoden
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]] unknown, possibly Gandalf
|spoken or sung by Gandalf
|-
|Ents the earthborn, old as mountains Treebeard
|an addition to the [[Long List of the Ents]] spoken or sung by Treebeard
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings unknown
|[[Rhymes of Lore]] sung by Gandalf
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|
|-
|Grey as a mouse
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-17T03:36:51Z

Spearwielder: /* Book II */ missed a

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]] sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
|[[Lament for Boromir]]
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Theoden!]]
|
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
|[[Long List of the Ents]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]]
|
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]]
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê!
|[[Bregalad's Song]]
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]]
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]]
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]]
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]]
|
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings
|[[Rhymes of Lore]]
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|
|-
|Grey as a mouse
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-17T03:36:03Z

Spearwielder: /* Book II */ authors and "performers"

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]] Bilbo
|chanted by Bilbo
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]] an unknown elf
|sung by an unknown elf of [[Rivendell]]
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]] unknown, presumably supernatural
|spoken by a voice in dreams
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]] unknown
|spoken by Bilbo
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]] Bilbo
|sung by Bilbo
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green an unknown dwarf
|[[Song of Durin]] sung by [[Gimli]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old an unknown elf, translated by an elf of Rivendell
|[[Song of Nimrodel]]sung by Legolas
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]] Frodo; Samwise suggests a stanza to add
|sung by Frodo
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold [[Galadriel]]
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen Galadriel
|[[Namárië]] sung by Galadriel
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
|[[Lament for Boromir]]
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Theoden!]]
|
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
|[[Long List of the Ents]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]]
|
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]]
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê!
|[[Bregalad's Song]]
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]]
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]]
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]]
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]]
|
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings
|[[Rhymes of Lore]]
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|
|-
|Grey as a mouse
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-15T16:09:41Z

Spearwielder: /* Book I */ tweaks

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line Author !! Original title Spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by [[Gandalf]]
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by Gandalf later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]]
|
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]]
|
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]]
|
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]]
|
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]]
|
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green
|[[Song of Durin]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old
|[[Song of Nimrodel]]
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]]
|
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]]
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen
|[[Namárië]]
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
|[[Lament for Boromir]]
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Theoden!]]
|
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
|[[Long List of the Ents]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]]
|
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]]
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê!
|[[Bregalad's Song]]
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]]
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]]
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]]
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]]
|
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings
|[[Rhymes of Lore]]
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|
|-
|Grey as a mouse
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-14T15:01:19Z

Spearwielder: /* Book I */ one more mistake

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line author !! Original title spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo Baggins
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by Gandalf
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo Baggins
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by [[Gandalf]], later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]]
|
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]]
|
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]]
|
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]]
|
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]]
|
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green
|[[Song of Durin]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old
|[[Song of Nimrodel]]
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]]
|
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]]
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen
|[[Namárië]]
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
|[[Lament for Boromir]]
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Theoden!]]
|
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
|[[Long List of the Ents]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]]
|
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]]
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê!
|[[Bregalad's Song]]
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]]
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]]
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]]
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]]
|
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings
|[[Rhymes of Lore]]
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|
|-
|Grey as a mouse
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-14T15:00:14Z

Spearwielder: Fix my mistakes

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line author !! Original title spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo Baggins
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by Gandalf
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo Baggins
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], and [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day unknown, possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far Over the Misty Mountains Cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]] Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]] unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]] Tom
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by [[Gandalf]], later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]]
|
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]]
|
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]]
|
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]]
|
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]]
|
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green
|[[Song of Durin]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old
|[[Song of Nimrodel]]
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]]
|
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]]
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen
|[[Namárië]]
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
|[[Lament for Boromir]]
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Theoden!]]
|
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
|[[Long List of the Ents]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]]
|
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]]
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê!
|[[Bregalad's Song]]
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]]
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]]
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]]
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]]
|
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings
|[[Rhymes of Lore]]
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|
|-
|Grey as a mouse
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-14T14:53:53Z

Spearwielder: add authors and speakers

{{disambig-more|Poem|[[Poetry (disambiguation)]]}}
This article contains a list of poems found within ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==''The Fellowship of the Ring''==
===Book I===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line author !! Original title spoken, sung, or written by
|-
| [[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
| sung by Bilbo Baggins
|-
| [[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
| spoken by Gandalf
|-
| Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo Baggins
| [[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Peregrin Took]]
|-
| [[Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady Clear!|Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!]] an unknown elf, transcribed as Frodo heard it
| sung by [[Gildor]] or one of his companions
|-
| [[Ho! Ho! Ho! To the Bottle I Go|Ho! Ho! Ho! To the bottle I go]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, Samwise, Peregrin
|-
| Sing hey! for the bath at the close of day|possibly Bilbo
| [[The Bath Song]] sung by Peregrin
|-
| [[Farewell We Call to Hearth and Hall!|Farewell we call to hearth and hall!]] [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregin, after [[Far over the misty mountains cold]]
| sung by Meriadoc and Peregrin
|-
| [[O! Wanderers in the Shadowed Land|O! Wanderers in the shadowed land]] unknown, probably a hobbit
| sung by Frodo, not complete
|-
| [[Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!]] [[Tom Bombadil]]
| sung by Tom Bombadil
|-
| [[Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!]] Tom and [[Goldberry]]
|first part sung by Tom, second by Goldberry
|-
| [[O slender as a willow-wand!]]|Frodo
| sung by Frodo
|-
| [[I Had An Errand There: Gathering Water-Lilies|I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!]] Tom
| sung by Tom, later by Frodo
|-
| [[Cold Be Hand and Heart and Bone|Cold be hand and heart and bone]]|unknown, possibly the [[Barrow-wight]]
| sung by the Barrow-wight
|-
| [[Get Out! You old Wight! Vanish in the Sunlight!|Get Out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!]] Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| [[Wake Now My Merry Lads! Wake and Hear Me Calling!|Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling]]
| spoken by Tom
|-
| [[Hey! Now! Come Hoy Now! Whither Do You Wander?|Hey! Now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?]] sung by Tom
| sung by Tom
|-
| There is an inn, a merry old inn Bilbo
| [[The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late]] sung by Frodo
|-
| [[Riddle of Strider|All that is gold does not glitter]] Bilbo
| written in a letter by [[Gandalf]], later spoken by Bilbo
|-
| Gil-galad was an Elven-king an unknown elf, translated by Bilbo
| [[The Fall of Gil-galad]] spoken by Samwise, incomplete
|-
| The leaves were long, the grass was green an unknown elf, translated by [[Aragorn]]
| [[Song of Beren and Lúthien]] chanted by Aragorn
|-
| Troll sat alone on his seat of stone Samwise
| [[The Stone Troll]] spoken by Samwise
|}

===Book II===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
| [[Eärendil was a mariner]]
|
|-
|[[A Elbereth Gilthoniel]]
|
|-
|[[Seek for the Sword that was broken]]
|
|-
|[[When winter first begins to bite]]
|
|-
|[[I sit beside the fire and think]]
|
|-
|The world was young, the mountains green
|[[Song of Durin]]
|-
|An Elven-maid there was of old
|[[Song of Nimrodel]]
|-
|[[When evening in the Shire was grey]]
|
|-
|I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold
|[[Galadriel's Song of Eldamar]]
|-
|Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen
|[[Namárië]]
|-
|}

==''The Two Towers''==
===Book III===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
|[[Lament for Boromir]]
|-
|[[Gondor! Gondor, between the Mountains and the Sea!]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!|Arise now, arise, Riders of Theoden!]]
|
|-
|Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
|[[Long List of the Ents]]
|-
|[[In the Willow-meads of Tasarinan|In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring]]
|
|-
|When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough
|[[The Ent and the Entwife]]
|-
|O Orofarnê, Lassemista, Carnimiriê!
|[[Bregalad's Song]]
|-
|We come, we come with roll of drum
|[[The Ent's Marching Song]]
|-
|Where now are the Dúnedain, Elessar, Elessar?
|[[Galadriel's Messages]]
|-
|Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
|[[Lament for the Rohirrim]]
|-
|In Dwimordene, in Lórien
|[[Gandalf's Song of Lórien]]
|-
|[[Ere iron was found or tree was hewn]]
|
|-
|Tall ships and tall kings
|[[Rhymes of Lore]]
|}

===Book IV===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[The cold hard lands]]
|
|-
|Grey as a mouse
|[[Oliphaunt (poem)|Oliphaunt]]
|}

==''The Return of the King''==
===Book V===
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[Over the land there lies a long shadow]]
|
|-
|[[From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning]]
|
|-
|[[Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|We heard of the horns in the hills ringing
|[[Song of the Mounds of Mundburg]]
|-
|[[When the black breath blows]]
|
|-
|[[Silver flow the streams from Celos to Erui]]
|
|}

===Book VI===

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! First line !! Original title
|-
|[[In western lands beneath the Sun]]
|
|-
|[[Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!]]
|
|-
|[[To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying]]
|
|-
|[[Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor]]
|
|-
|[[Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day’s rising]]
|
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)#The Lord of the Rings|The Road goes ever on and on]]
|
|-
|[[Upon the Hearth the Fire is Red|Upon the hearth the fire is red]]
|
|}

==See also==
*[[Index:Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien|Poems by J.R.R. Tolkien]]
*[[Poems in The Hobbit|Poems in ''The Hobbit'']]
{{DISPLAYTITLE:Poems in ''The Lord of the Rings''}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Poems in The Lord of the Rings| ]]
[[fi:Tarun Sormusten herrasta runot ja laulut]]

Talk:Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-13T22:32:14Z

Spearwielder: /* Two more columns in table? */

User:Spearwielder/sandbox

2024-04-13T22:30:39Z

Spearwielder:

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!First line author!!Original title spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
|sung by Bilbo Baggins
|-
|[[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
|spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo Baggins
|[[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Peregrin Took]]
|}

User:Spearwielder/sandbox

2024-04-13T22:29:51Z

Spearwielder:

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!First line author!!Original title spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
|sung by Bilbo Baggins
|-
|[[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] probably by an unknown elf, incorporating a
translation of two lines written by Sauron
|spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo Baggins
|[[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Peregrin Took]]
|}

User:Spearwielder/sandbox

2024-04-13T22:27:21Z

Spearwielder:

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!First line author!!Original title spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] [[Bilbo Baggins]]
|sung by Bilbo Baggins
|-
|[[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] by an unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron
|spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Upon the hearth the fire is red Bilbo Baggins
|[[A Walking Song]] sung by [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Peregrin Took]]
|}

Possible inconsistencies in the legendarium

2024-04-12T18:29:05Z

Spearwielder: /* Galadriel's mind-reading */ clarify that it's not saying that Galadriel should have read Saruman's mind

{{cleanup}}

The '''inconsistencies''' are various vague or seemingly contradictory statements that can be found throughout Tolkien's writings.

Although [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] paid a great deal of attention to detail in his [[Secondary world]] to preserve a realistic consistency,<ref>{{L|236}}</ref> in this vast creation, unavoidably, some more or less degrees of inconsistencies had slipped in. Most can be revealed after more than one reading of the books and through study. Regarding the inconsistencies, [[Christopher Tolkien]] has noted that:
{{blockquote|...the credibility that my father was so anxious to maintain. Of course if he had noticed this inconsistency himself or had it pointed out to him he would have altered it without a second thought.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp>{{HM|RC}}</ref>{{rp|p. xliv}}}}
He also noted that:
{{blockquote|However much my father desired to achieve consistency at every level of his work, from capital letters to the dates of dynasties, he was bound to fail. [...] His life was a perpetual battle against time (& tiredness) [...] But he 'niggled' on a grand and noble conception, & indeed its coherence in fine detail is a part of its power.|Christopher Tolkien's letter to [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]].<ref name=comp/>{{rp|p. xliii}}}}

J.R.R. Tolkien's comment, late in life, was quoted by Hammond and Scull:
{{blockquote|Personally I have ceased to bother about these minor 'discrepancies', since if the genealogies and calendars etc. lack verisimilitude it is in their general excessive accuracy: as compared with real annals or genealogies! Anyway the slips are few, have mostly been removed, and the discovery of what remain seems an amusing pastime!|Letter to [[Joy Hill]], October 30, 1967, quoted in the "Note on the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]]."}}

Hammond and Scull added, "In fact Tolkien had not 'ceased to bother', and 'slips' were dealt with as opportunities arose."<ref>''The Lord of the Rings'', [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th Anniversary Edition]], "Note on the 50th Anniversary Edition"</ref>

Fans of Tolkien usually accept that in any work there are usually plot holes. In a larger, far more detailed and realistic book we expect fewer (if any) plot holes, when in reality there is a far greater chance because of its complexity.{{Fact}}

Any inconsistency can be blamed on the "fictional Tolkien" who adapted ancient sources such as the Red Book or on the characters who wrote and compiled those sources.<ref>{{App|F2}}</ref> Tolkien himself mentioned in Appendix D that he might have made many errors on the calendar while "translating" the "ancient sources", a comment written as a fail-safe for any narrative error the author might have made, and mentioned in Appendix F ("Of the Elves") that Frodo had erred in thinking the dialect of Sindarin spoken by the elves of Lórien was Silvan Elvish.<ref>{{FR|II6}}. A footnote directs the reader to the correction in the appendix.</ref>

Such explanations attributing the inconsistencies to the "translator Tolkien" or the "original sources" are easy and unenlightening. Therefore many fans prefer to explain them with some internal explanation. The explanations below are of this type. For example, at least some of the logical inconsistencies can be attributed to the characters' own erroneous sayings, since none of them has all knowledge about everything. Contradictions of this type are grouped under "Characters". Others are grouped under "Facts", which has subgroups.

Please also bear in mind that most of Tolkien's writings are highly ''poetic'', which implies that the "vagueness" is a very core characteristic and value to them. Thus in some cases a seeming "inconsistency" might be nothing more than the result of unnecessary over-analysis and clinging to superficial details instead of internal value.

==Characters==
====The Eldest====
Both [[Tom Bombadil]] and [[Treebeard]] are referred to as the [[eldest]] being in [[Middle-earth]]. Tom says that about himself,<ref>{{FR|I7}}, "Eldest, that's what I am.... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn." </ref> and [[Elrond]] mentions that the Elves knew Tom as "oldest and fatherless".<ref name="CofE">{{FR|II2}}</ref> However, [[Gandalf]] tells [[Théoden]] that Treebeard is "the oldest of all living things",<ref name="Isengard">{{TT|III8}}</ref> and Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest".<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[Many Partings]]"</ref>
;Explanation: Maybe Tom is not "alive" as Treebeard is.<ref>Tom Shippey, ''The Road to Middle-earth: Revised and Expanded Edition'', p. 107</ref><ref>Gene Hargrove, "Tom Bombadil", in Michael D. C. Drout, ed., ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=by0dzzQ6m8sC&pg=PA671 J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia]'' (2006), Routledge, p. 671</ref> On this subject, Gandalf, [[Saruman]], and [[Sauron]] have ''existed'' far longer than Treebeard, as they are [[Maiar]], but they haven't been ''alive'' (embodied physically) as long.

====Giving up a Ring of Power====
Gandalf says, "'A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. ''It'' may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to some one else's care—and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has gone beyond playing, and really done it.'"<ref name="Shadow">{{FR|I2}}</ref> However, [[Narya|Gandalf's own ring]] was given to him freely by [[Círdan]].<ref name="AppThird">{{App|TA}}</ref> Also, the dwarves of [[Durin's Folk]] who held their Ring typically "surrendered" it when near death, and in particular [[Thrór]] gave it to his son [[Thráin II]],<ref name="AppADurin"/> as Gandalf says at the Council of Elrond.<ref name="CofE"/>
;Explanation: Perhaps Gandalf meant only the Rings that [[Sauron]] had had a hand in making, which might be the only ones that "grip." Gandalf's ring is one of the [[Three Rings|Three]], which Sauron didn't touch. Durin's Folk believed that they had received their Ring directly from the [[Gwaith-i-Mírdain|Elven-Smiths]], though Sauron did help to make it. Further, it is noted in the Appendices that the Rings could influence Dwarves to a much lesser extent than Men, specifically "the only power over [Dwarves] that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things."<ref>{{App|A3}}</ref> Gandalf may have been speaking implicitly only of Men, considering the context of the conversation and his audience.{{Fact}}

====Sam's spying====
[[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] tells [[Frodo Baggins]] that as a result of [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise Gamgee's]] eavesdropping, he and [[Peregrin Took]] "know most of what Gandalf has told you about the [[One Ring|Ring]]."<ref name=ACU>{{FR|I5}}</ref> Most of what Gandalf told Frodo was in one long conversation, at the end of which Gandalf caught Sam.<ref name="Shadow"/> This contradicts Merry's statement that after Sam was caught, he "seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up."<ref name=ACU/>
;Explanation: Maybe Sam's information was what he learned before he was caught,{{Fact}} though that's not what Merry says.

====A choice of dangers====
[[Aragorn]] tells the hobbits, as they prepare to leave [[Bree]], "After [[Weathertop]] our journey will become more difficult, and we shall have to choose between various dangers."<ref name=Strider/> The ridges they have to climb after Weathertop may be more difficult than the [[Midgewater Marshes]], but they encounter no dangers on the route Aragorn chooses, and he doesn't mention any choices of dangers or even warn the hobbits of any dangers, except the chance that the Nazgûl will find them as they cross the [[Last Bridge]].<ref name="Flight">{{FR|I12}}</ref>
;Explanation: Not all risked dangers actually materialize, and Aragorn does cite two other possible courses that have their own possible hazards. One is going north through the [[Ettenmoors|Ettendales]] instead of crossing the [[Ford of Bruinen]], but in addition to the danger of [[trolls]], that route would take too long and the Company could run out of food. The other is finding the Ford without following the Road, but Aragorn regards that as impossible.<ref>{{FR|I12}}, "'We cannot hope to find a path through these hills. Whatever danger may beset it, the Road is our only way to the Ford.'"</ref> In his estimation, the Road was clearly the path most likely to get the Company to Rivendell safely, regardless of whether the alternatives were truly impossible or merely less practical than the best alternative.

====Aragorn's knowledge====
Aragorn tells the hobbits in Bree, "I know all the lands between [[the Shire]] and the [[Misty Mountains]], for I have wandered over them for many years."<ref name="Strider"/> But later, speaking of the Ettendales, he says, "That is troll-country, and little known to me," and "I do not know the way".<ref name="Flight"/> The Ettendales or Ettenmoors are on a line between the Shire and the northern part of the Misty Mountains.{{Fact}}
;Explanation: If we take Aragorn's line "wandered over them" literally, we can accept that Aragorn has also wandered over the Ettendales. Of course that doesn't necessarily means that Aragorn should know ''everything'' about those lands, or even know ''all'' ways (e.g., to Rivendell) through them. He says that he knows those lands "little."

====Building Barad-dûr====
Elrond says at his council that the foundations of [[Barad-dûr]] were made with the One Ring,<ref>{{FR|II2}}, "The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure.</ref> which is consistent with its destruction when the Ring is destroyed. However, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began building Barad-dûr in about S.A. 1000 and forged the Ring in about S.A. 1600.<ref>https://www.quora.com/What-inconsistencies-if-any-appear-in-the-Hobbit-Lord-of-the-Rings-and-the-Silmarillion</ref>
;Explanation: Maybe Sauron ordered his Orcs to begin gathering materials and preparing the land for construction in S.A. 1000, and only commenced building once he forged the Ring in S.A. 1600.{{Fact}} Six hundred years is a long time, but the Barad-dûr was a monumental structure that would have required an unprecedented amount of stone, iron, and other materials to erect. Or maybe the foundations were built before the making of the Ring, but lacking a last piece, or some power of will that the Ring provided.{{Fact}}

====Heirlooms of Arnor====
At the Council of Elrond, Aragorn says of [[Narsil]], the Sword of Elendil, "It has been treasured by his heirs when '''all other heirlooms were lost'''" (emphasis added).<ref name="CofE"/> However, Appendix A lists other heirlooms that were kept with it: "...there [at [[Rivendell]]] also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the [[Ring of Barahir]], the shards of Narsil, the [[star of Elendil]], and the [[sceptre of Annúminas]]."<ref name="AppEriador">{{App|Eriador}}</ref>
;Explanation: The Ring of Barahir was briefly lost to the Dúnedain when Arvedui bartered it to the Lossoth for supplies. No loss of the other heirlooms appears.

====Possession of the [[Nine Rings]]====
In ''[[The Council of Elrond]]'' [[Gandalf]] says that the [[Nazgûl]] kept their Rings by saying "The Nine the Nazgûl keep".<ref name="CofE"/> However in most other references, it is mentioned that Sauron had taken them.<ref>{{FR|I2}}, "the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed."</ref><ref>{{FR|II7}}, "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."</ref> Furthermore, Frodo doesn't see any Rings on them on [[Weathertop]], and it is believed that if they did wear the Rings, they would have been fully [[Unseen|invisible]] (including their cloaks).<ref>http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvRiders</ref>
The line in the Council of Elrond represents Tolkien's earlier intention that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.
;Explanation: The phrase can be also interpreted as "The Nine ''keep'' the Nazgûl ''in Sauron’s thrall''," though this would be an awkward construction. The doings of Sauron and the Nazgûl were mostly unknown to the Council, so it is likely that Gandalf did not actually know the physical disposition of the Rings and was merely alluding to the indelible association between the Nine Rings and the Nine Nazgûl. Moreover, as far as the Council was concerned, the situation was equivalent whether the Nine Rings were on Sauron's fingers or on those of his slaves, so the lack of precision was immaterial.

====Feeling the mithril coat====
The [[mithril coat]] that Bilbo gives Frodo is "almost as supple as linen". However, when Bilbo slaps Frodo on the back after giving him the coat, he says, "Ow!... You are too hard now to slap!"<ref name="Ring">{{FR|II3}}</ref>
;Explanation: Perhaps Bilbo is joking. Or perhaps the mail tenses in response to an impact, similar to non-Newtonian fluids solidifying under stress. It's fairly common in Middle-earth for works of master craftsmanship to have some "magical" attributes, and given the cost of mithril, it's a safe bet that only the best smiths in Erebor would have undertaken such a project. Of all of the magical abilities one might want for a coat of nigh-unbreakable chain mail, the ability to turn solid when struck while being as soft as cloth at all other times would be high on the list.

====Galadriel's mind-reading====
[[Galadriel]] tells Frodo and Sam that she knows Sauron's thoughts that concern the Elves.<ref name="Mirror">{{FR|II7}}</ref> It seems strange that they don't ask her whether she has any information they might find useful and she doesn't offer them any. Also, she doesn't seem to have known that [[Saruman]] had switched to Sauron's side nineteen years earlier, though it must have been in Sauron's thoughts and the defection of a member of the [[White Council]] seems to concern the Elves. At least, she didn't warn Gandalf in the messages he got from Lórien after reading the [[Scroll of Isildur]], the year before he trustingly entered [[Orthanc]].<ref name="CofE"/> (Also, when Aragorn was serving in Gondor under the name [[Thorongil]], he "often warned [[Ecthelion II|Ecthelion]] not to put trust in Saruman".<ref>{{HM|AA}}</ref> It's strange that he knew not to trust Saruman but Gandalf didn't.)
;Explanation: Conceivably Galadriel gained the ability to read Sauron's mind sometime after the messages went to Gandalf.

====Galadriel's role====
Galadriel tells the Fellowship, "I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, or in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be."<ref>{{FR|I6}}</ref> Later she tells Frodo, "I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor."<ref name="Mirror"/> However, the rhyme she sends Aragorn advises a specific course: the [[Grey Company]] should come out of [[Rivendell]], and Aragorn should take the [[Paths of the Dead]].<ref>{{TT|III5}}</ref> Likewise [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]] conclude that Galadriel sent the message to the Grey Company telling them to join Aragorn in [[Rohan]]; this seems to be "contriving" and "choosing between one course and another". Incidentally, it is odd that the Grey Company got this message without knowing who it was from.<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Passing of the Grey Company]]"</ref>
;Explanation: One could imagine that someone else (Celeborn?) made the decisions and Galadriel only sent the messages; Legolas and Gimli may have erred in thinking she was the source. Alternatively, it is conceivable that Galadriel's words to the Fellowship were calculated to have a desired impact, even though at face value they seemed to be of no use.

====The origin of orcs====
Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that [[Morgoth]] made trolls and orcs.<ref>{{TT|III4}}. "But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves."</ref> However, Frodo says to Sam, "The Shadow that bred them [Orcs] can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined and twisted them."<ref>{{RK|VI1}}</ref>
;Explanation: Tolkien went through several attempts to explain [[Orcs/Origin|the origin of orcs]] and never stated a definitive answer. However, when he addressed this point in "[[Letter 153]]", he described Treebeard as "not one of the Wise", and he quoted and endorsed Frodo's line above.

====Tales of hobbits====
Pippin tells [[Théoden]], "I have wandered in many lands, since I left my home, and never till now have I found people that knew any story concerning hobbits."<ref name="Isengard"/> But hobbits live in [[Bree]], [[Tom Bombadil]] knows many stories about hobbits, one would think the [[Rangers of the North|Rangers]] (who guard [[the Shire]] and Bree) and the Elves of Rivendell (where Bilbo has been living) would know some, and the Elves of Lórien have at least heard of hobbits.<ref>{{FR|II6}}, "We had not heard of—hobbits, of halflings, for many a long year...."</ref>
;Explanation: Pippin has just woken up from a nap, after a lunch that included wine, and is talking to a king for the first time in his life; he may not be thinking clearly. Alternatively, Pippin is the most glib and smooth or courtly of the hobbits in the Fellowship, and he may have exaggerated to flatter the king, even without realizing he was doing it.

====The peril of deep arts====
In connection with the ''palantír'' of Orthanc, Gandalf observes to Pippin, "Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves."<ref name="Palantir">{{TT|III11}}</ref> However, never in ''The Hobbit'' or ''The Lord of the Rings'' does he warn [[Thorin|Thorin]] or the hobbits against using elvish swords, which glow in the presence of orcs, or [[Daggers of Westernesse|daggers from the barrow]], which are especially effective against Ringwraiths. He returns the [[Phial of Galadriel]] to Frodo and [[Gifts of Galadriel|Galadriel's box of earth]] to Sam without any warnings. Also, there is no apparent danger in characters' using other products of elven arts (cloaks, ''[[hithlain]]'' ropes, ''[[lembas]]'').
;Explanation: Maybe the ''palantíri'' are "devices" in a sense in which the other things named are not.

:Furthermore, it's possible that Gandalf was only attempting to discourage Pippin's curiosity, worrying that it could lead to another dangerous situation like that with the ''palantír''.

====The eyes in Orthanc====
When Aragorn tells Gimli and Legolas that he's confronted Sauron in the ''palantír'', he says that Sauron had not previously known Aragorn was alive. In explanation, he adds, "The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Théoden".<ref>{{RK|V2}}</ref> But Wormtongue knew that Aragorn claimed to be Isildur's heir, as Gandalf points out to Pippin.<ref name=Palantir/> Thus whether Wormtongue recognized Aragorn from Orthanc doesn't matter to Sauron's knowledge of Aragorn's existence. (What Aragorn should have deduced was that either Wormtongue never told Saruman about him, or Saruman didn't reveal the knowledge, whether to Sauron through the ''palantír'' or to the Nazgûl who came to demand Saruman's supposed captive hobbit. (The latter is what Gandalf tells Pippin he fears.)

====[[Mouth of Sauron]] and "Sauron the Great"====
[[Aragorn]] mentions that the name "[[Sauron]]" (meaning "Abominable") is the name used by his enemies, and Sauron does not permit it to be pronounced.<ref>{{TT|III1}}</ref> Therefore it would be problematic, if not logically impossible, for the Ringwraiths to think "Sauron would deal with them later" as they rode away from [[Crickhollow]],<ref>{{FR|I11}}</ref> for the messenger to Dáin to refer to his master as "the Lord Sauron the Great", as Aragorn had heard at the [[Council of Elrond]],<ref>{{FR|II2}}</ref> and for a servant of Sauron to say, "I am the Mouth of Sauron".<ref>{{RK|V10}}</ref>
;Explanation: It could be that Aragorn was mistaken, perhaps thinking of the time before Sauron had declared himself. Another possibility is that the "Mouth" used a different name or title, perhaps in the Black Speech, and Frodo or the translator Tolkien "translated" it as Sauron to clarify it for readers. As the Ringwraiths' thoughts would not have been known to anyone else, the passage presenting those thoughts must have been invented by Frodo or the translator Tolkien, who would be responsible for the choice of "Sauron" there. A similar possibility is that despite Aragorn's blanket statement, Sauron sometimes allowed his servants to use the name in communicating with others who used it. As many of his enemies only knew his "true" name as Sauron, it would also allow him to keep his true names and aliases hidden from them, as well as allow them to immediately recognize whom his servants were referring to.

====Hewing Orcs====
At [[Helm's Deep]], [[Gimli]] tells Éomer that he had 'hewn naught but wood since I left Moria', forgetting that he [[Breaking of the Fellowship|fought Orcs]] not long before.
;Explanation: This discrepancy was noted by [[Wayne G. Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', where they explained that they left it unchanged in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]] because correcting it was impossible, as it would require rewriting the dialogue.<ref name=comp/>{{rp|p. xliv}} Amon Hen was a week before the Battle of the Hornburg; even for a stout Dwarven warrior, lamenting not killing an Orc for that short period would make him look too bloodthirsty. However, it is possible to interpret Gimli as being scornful towards his latest opponents, deliberately meaning that they were no better than "wood".

==Facts==
====[[Doors of Durin]]====
''[[Moria]]'' translates as "Black Pit" or "Black Chasm" in [[Sindarin]], and the name was said to have been given by the [[Elves]] "without love",<ref name=Translation>{{App|Translation}}, p. 1137, "Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar... were not dwellers in such places of choice"</ref> possibly indicating that it was a derogatory description. Furthermore, ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' states that [[Khazad-dûm]] was "afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria",<ref>{{S|Sindar}}</ref> suggesting the name was not widely used until after [[Durin's Bane]] took over the city and it was overrun by [[Orcs]]. It is therefore a paradox why that name appears on the [[Doors of Durin]] (''Ennyn Durin Aran Moria''), made in the [[Second Age]], and with the consent of the [[Dwarves]].
;Explanation: There are many possible explanations to this apparent inconsistency.<ref>{{HM|RC}}, pp. 281-2</ref> The name may have been given by the [[Elves]] in reference to Moria's inherent darkness from being underground (in contrast with their love for "green earth and the lights of heaven"), and therefore was in use before Moria's fall to the [[Balrog]].<ref name=Translation/> There is also no clear evidence that the Dwarves found this name to be offensive, and they may have had no objection to its use on the doors. Some "external" explanations suggest that since the translated names [[Durin (disambiguation)|Durin]] and [[Narvi]] are seen in the inscription, ''Moria'' may also be a "translated" name.

====[[Eagles]]====
One of the best-known alleged plot holes is why the Eagles came to carry Frodo and Sam back from [[Mount Doom]] but did not help them to fly [[the One Ring]] there, or at least help them at other points in their journey such as the crossing of the Misty Mountains. It is particularly hard to understand why this idea was not proposed in the [[Council of Elrond]].
;Explanation: This question is discussed in detail in [[Eagles#Flying_the_Ring_to_Mount_Doom|the article on the Eagles]], which gives several explanations.

:In general the explanations for not flying the Ring to Mount Doom are better than those for the Fellowship's not at least trying to have the Eagles fly them across the Misty Mountains.

====Distances====
The distances of the Dwarves' travel to [[Rivendell]] in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' seem to have different proportions than those in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Tolkien tried to reconcile the ''Hobbit'' description with the scale of the ''LotR'' map but couldn't find an appropriate solution.<ref>{{HM|RS}} p. 204</ref>

While Frodo and his companions needed 28 days from [[Hobbiton]] to [[Rivendell]] (10.7 miles/day)<ref name="atlas">[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]], ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]''</ref>, [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] calculated that Bilbo and [[Thorin and Company]] needed 38 days (17.5 miles/day)<ref name="atlas"/>. [[Andreas Möhn|Andreas Moehn]] goes further and supposes that Thorin and Co. wanted two weeks from the [[Trollshaws]] till Rivendell (a distance which [[Glorfindel]] covered in two days), resulting in c. 48 days total.<ref name="lalaith">http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Durin%27s_Day.html</ref>.
;Explanation: The distances and days are not described in the narrative and can be measured only by references such as the moon phases and other fan calculations; therefore there can be a margin of miscalculation.

:In general, perhaps the Dwarves are by nature slower travelers than Men and/or Hobbits. In ''[[The Departure of Boromir]]'' it is seen that [[Gimli]] had a problem keeping pace with Aragorn and Legolas.

:The errand of bringing the Ring to Rivendell was much more pressing than the Dwarves'. The dragon was not going anywhere. And Frodo and his companions were hunted down by the [[Nazgûl]].

====Beater and Biter====
The swords [[Glamdring]] and its "mate" [[Orcrist]] are said to have belonged to King [[Turgon]] of the [[First Age]]. They never appeared much in battle (Turgon fought only in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]) and they were witnessed only by the Orcs of Beleriand. However, in the [[Third Age]] the swords are found in a [[Troll]] hoard in [[Eriador]], and the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] recognize them by their names.
The Orcs don't seem to react similarly in the sight of Glamdring in ''LotR'', nor do they seem to recognize [[Narsil]]/[[Andúril]], which is much more "recent".
;Explanation: There can be several theories and explanations of how the swords and even their reputations reach Eriador. However, the narrative of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' doesn't justify their significance to the extent of being remembered and recognized by the Goblins of the Third Age, even by tradition.

====The elf-king's favorite gems====
The narration of ''The Hobbit'' says the [[Thranduil|elf-king]]'s favorite gems are "white."<ref>{{H|8}}, "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems...."</ref> However, after the [[Battle of Five Armies]], the narration says, "To the Elven-king he <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Bard]]<nowiki>]</nowiki> sent the emeralds of [[Girion]], such gems as he most loved...."<ref>{{H|18}}</ref>
;Explanation: The sentence is somewhat ambiguous: "he" could refer to Bard or Girion instead of the elf-king. However, the elf-king's preference in gems, not the others', would be relevant to Bard's choice of what to give him.

====Thráin and Thorin's settling in the [[Blue Mountains]]====
[[File:Stephen Raw - Middle-earth map (1 of 4).png|250px|thumb|A map of north-west Middle-earth]]
After [[Thráin|Thráin II]] and his followers returned to [[Dunland]] following the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]] in {{TA|2799}},
{{Blockquote|they removed and wandered in [[Eriador]], until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the [[Ered Luin]] beyond the [[Lune]].<ref name="AppADurin">{{App|Durin}}</ref>}}
From the point of view of Eriador and the Shire, "beyond the Lune" is north of it.

However, the "Tale of Years" ([[Appendix B]]) states,
{{Blockquote|Thráin and his son Thorin wander westwards. They settle in the South of [[Ered Luin]] beyond [[the Shire]] ({{TA|2802|n}})<ref name="AppThird"/>}}
It is difficult to reconcile the descriptions "beyond the Lune" and "in the south of the Ered Luin."

Other mentions of the Dwarves' homes in the Ered Luin are consistent with both possibilities. "Dwarves dwelt in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the [[Gulf of Lune]], where they have mines that are still in use."<ref name="AppEriador"/>

"Especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune" implies that a smaller number of Dwarves lived north of the Gulf, as shown in two other quotations. In a parenthetical comment made in "Of Dwarves and Men" in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', Tolkien indicated that beyond the inflow of the [[Little Lune]] was 'Dwarf territory'.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}, p. 313</ref> Likewise in Appendix A: [[Arvedui]], the last king of [[Arthedain]], "hid in the tunnels of the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains".<ref name="AppEriador"/>

====Westron and English====
In a few places, Tolkien might be thought to have forgotten that the English, including [[Old English]], in ''The Lord of the Rings'' is supposed to be translated from [[Westron]] and related languages. Some of these are easily explained, and Tolkien explained the similarity between the Sindarin ''[[Baranduin]]'' and the English "Brandywine".<ref>{{App|Translation}} "Brandywine" is somewhat similar in both sound and meaning to the hobbits' Westron nickname for the river, ''Bralda-him'' meaning 'heady ale'.</ref> The most difficult is the comment, "This was ''Orthanc'', the citadel of Saruman, the name of which had (by design or chance) a twofold meaning; for in the Elvish speech ''orthanc'' signifies Mount Fang, but in the language of the Mark of old ''the Cunning Mind''."<ref>{{TT|III8}}</ref> However, ''orthanc'' means "cunning" not in [[Rohanese]] but in Old English, which Tolkien used to translate Rohanese.
;Explanation: By a further coincidence, the unattested name for ''Orthanc'' in Rohanese could also be "Orthanc" and mean "cunning mind".

====Chronology====
=====When Bilbo departed=====
In the chapter ''[[Roast Mutton]]'', [[Thorin and Company]] depart from the ''[[Green Dragon]]'' "one fine morning just before May." In the later written and published "[[The Quest of Erebor]]", part of "[[Unfinished Tales]]", the author established that the day of departure was [[27 April]].<ref>{{UT|Quest}}</ref> However, the chapter ''[[Flies and Spiders]]'' refers to what has happened "since they started their journey that May morning long ago."
;Explanation: The fifth month of the [[Shire Calendar]], Thrimidge, falls between 22 April to 21 May. By the human calendar, the journey would have started just before May; but by the hobbit calendar, the journey started during Thrimidge. The second reference to May could have been a "translation error", where "Thrimidge" was translated as "May" regardless of the actual date.

=====[[White Council]] during the [[Watchful Peace]]=====
According to [[Appendix A]], "The Stewards", during the [[Watchful Peace]] "''Sauron withdrew before the power of the White Council and the Ringwraiths remained hidden in Morgul Vale''". However the Watchful Peace ended in {{TA|2460}}, three years before the White Council was formed. Thus according to [[Robert Foster]], the reference to the Council is "incorrect".<ref>[[Robert Foster]] (2001) ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth|The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth: From The Hobbit through The Lord of the Rings and Beyond]]''. Random House Digital, [http://books.google.com/books?id=GNGJvGi849UC&pg=PA538 p. 538].</ref>
;Explanation: Foster suggests that the reference to the "White Council" is rather to "the [[Wise]]" in general.

=====Moon phases=====
Tolkien was particularly careful about the phases of the [[Moon]] in the ''LotR''. Yet some errors did elude him. See for example [[13 January|January 13]], [[16 January|January 16]], [[22 February|February 22]], [[22 September|September 22]].

In general, it is possible that Tolkien consulted a modern almanac to model the moon phases, and also possible that he confused the meanings of "New Moon": the astronomical (the moment when the moon is darkest) and the colloquial (appearance of the new crescent moon).<ref>http://shire-reckoning.com/moon.html</ref>

Another error appears in ''The Hobbit'': [[Bard|Bard I]] killed [[Smaug]] "at the rising of the moon"<ref>{{H|15}}</ref> when "the moon rose above the eastern shore and silvered his [Smaug's] great wings... the waxing moon rose higher and higher". Also the [[thrush]] tells Bard, "Wait! Wait!... The Moon is rising." <ref>{{H|14}}</ref> However, according to astronomy a waxing moon rises only in the morning, after the sun. We can be certain the moon was waxing because this occurs the day after [[Durin's Day]], which is the first day in the last month of autumn that the new moon is visible together with the sun.<ref name="lalaith"/>
;Explanation: One might imagine that Bard needed to wait for the moon to fall below a cloudbank and that the tradition is corrupt.<ref name="lalaith"/>

=====[[Shadow over Hollin]]=====
While the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] traverses [[Hollin]], they see and feel a flying shadow over them.<ref name="Ring"/> Since no other such phenomena occur, when the [[Fell Beast]]s are introduced, the reader makes such a connection. However [[Grishnakh]] later tells [[Uglúk]] that Sauron was not yet permitting the Nazgûl to traverse to the west side of the [[Anduin]],<ref>{{TT|III3}}</ref> and still later Gandalf says, "The Nazgûl have crossed the River!" as if it were something new.<ref name="Palantir"/>
;Explanation: Possibly a Nazgûl got lost or disobeyed orders and prematurely crossed the Anduin. Or possibly the fellowship noticed something unexplained and unrelated to the Fell Beasts. Perhaps it was some feeling of foreboding as they would eventually have to go to Moria. It could also be a sort of metaphor of Sauron observing them, as often throughout the books Sauron's gaze is compared to a heavy shadow bearing down on what it sees. Another possibility is that it was a flock of ''[[crebain]]'' (crows) sent by Saruman flying overhead.

=====Nights in Lórien=====
The surviving members of the Company spend their first night in Lórien in a "flet" in a tree. On their second night, "they rested and slept without fear on the ground".<ref >{{FR|II6}}</ref> On their third night, they sleep on the ground again, in a pavilion in [[Caras Galadon]]. "For a little while the travellers talked of their night before in the tree-tops, and of their day's journey...." And Aragorn says, "But tonight I shall sleep without fear for the first time since I left Rivendell."<ref name="Mirror"/> The night in the tree-tops was not the night before, and Aragorn did sleep without fear on the previous night, so the second night appears to be forgotten.
;Explanation: In Lórien at least some members of the Fellowship lose track of the flow of time. Shortly after Aragorn's remark, the narration says, "They remained some days in Lothlórien, so far as they could tell or remember." Also, after leaving Lórien, Sam feels sure they had not spent a whole month there, despite the evidence of the phase of the moon, and Frodo thinks while in Lórien they were in the past and mentions that he doesn't remember seeing the moon while there. However, Legolas assures him that only their perception of time was changed, and Aragorn points out that the time had indeed been a month.<ref>{{FR|II9}}</ref> Aragorn's forgetting his night without fear could be an effect of this changed sense of time. The phrase in the narration "the night before in the tree-tops" is harder to explain within the story, as the narration does include the intervening night, but the inconspicuous contradiction might be deliberate foreshadowing of what the Company will experience.

=====Éomer and Éowyn after Aragorn's coronation=====
In the chapter ''[[The Steward and the King]]'', it is stated: "So the glad days passed; and on the eighth day of May the Riders of Rohan made ready, and rode off by the North-way, and with them went the sons of Elrond. All the road was lined with people to do them honour and praise them, from the Gate of the City to the walls of the Pelennor."<ref name="SaK">{{RK|VI5}}</ref> However, in ''[[Appendix B]]'' of some editions of the novel<ref>http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-1958.html</ref> there is the entry: "May 8 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) Éomer and Éowyn depart '''from''' Rohan with the sons of Elrond".<ref name="AppB4">{{App|Chief}}</ref> (Emphasis added.)

=====The sapling's discovery=====
In the text of ''[[The Return of the King]]'' it is stated: "And Aragorn planted the new tree in the court by the fountain, and swiftly and gladly it began to grow; and when the month of June entered in it was laden with blossom".<ref name="SaK"/> The wording of this sentence suggests that Aragorn planted the sapling ''before'' June began. However, in ''Appendix B'' there is the entry: "June 25 (of {{TA|3019|n}}) King Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree",<ref name="AppB4"/> in which case it could not have blossomed until late in the month.

=====Walda's death=====
King [[Walda]]'s death date is recorded in [[Appendix A]] as [[Third Age 2851]] but in [[Appendix B]] as [[Third Age 2861]].

==Later corrected==
Several errors were simply remnants of Tolkien's earlier writings, which later escaped his attention when revising the book. Some of them have been corrected in the later editions of ''The Lord of the Rings'' and ''The Hobbit''.

====Bridle and headstall====
The first edition referred to the "bridle and bit" of [[Glorfindel]]'s horse, [[Asfaloth]].<ref name="Flight"/> [[Rhona Beare]] wrote to Tolkien asking how that was possible when elves don't use bridles. Tolkien replied in [[Letter 211]] that he'd written "bridle and bit" before thinking about how elves ride, and he changed it to "headstall" in the second edition. However, a later mention of Asfaloth's bridle remained in the chapter.<ref>"His hand left the bridle and gripped the hilt of his sword, and with a red flash he drew it."</ref>

====Durin's Day====
The original text of ''The Hobbit'' described [[Durin's Day]] as occurring on "the first day of the last moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|3}}</ref> the "first moon of autumn",<ref>{{H|4}}</ref> and "the last week of autumn".<ref>{{H|11}}</ref> In the 1995 edition the mention in Chapter 4 was revised to place the day at the end of autumn, in line with the other two mentions.<ref>Chester N. Scoville, "''The Hobbit''" in ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment]]'' (2007), Michael D.C. Drout, ed., Taylor and Francis, p. 279</ref>

====Bandobras' parentage====
The ''[[The Lord of the Rings Prologue|Prologue]]'' mentions that [[Bandobras Took]] was the son (not grandson) of [[Isengrim Took II]]. This has been corrected in the 50th Anniversary edition.

====Sam's birth====
In the second edition of ''The Lord of the Rings'', [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s year of birth was added to ''[[Appendix B|The Tale of Years]]'' as [[Third Age 2963]]. This contradicts both a later entry in ''The Tale of Years'' and the [[Appendix C]] given as [[Third Age 2980]].<ref>[[Wayne G. Hammond]], [[Christina Scull]], ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', page 716</ref>

====Gandalf's letter====
The letter Gandalf leaves for Frodo at the ''[[Prancing Pony]]'' is dated "[[Midyear's Day]], Shire Year, 1418."<ref name="Strider">{{FR|I10}}</ref> However, in editions published during Tolkien's lifetime, Appendix B says that on June 29, "Gandalf meets [[Radagast]]." Then Gandalf says he left [[Bree]] at dawn of the following day,<ref name="CofE"/> which would be June 30, two days before Midyear's Day (as 1 [[Lithe]] comes between).
;Explanation: Perhaps Gandalf, who was in a hurry and had been traveling for days, made the error. However, the entry in Appendix B for June 29, 3018, has been deleted from the 50th Anniversary Edition.

====Crossing Rohan inconspicuously====
As they ride away from Isengard, Gandalf tells Merry that the Lidless Eye will be looking toward Rohan, so "He [Théoden] will ride from there [Helm's Deep] to Dunharrow by paths among the hills. From now on no more than two or three together are to go openly over the land, by day or night, when it can be avoided."<ref>{{TT|III11}}</ref> However, later that night, after Pippin looks into the ''palantír'' and Gandalf says they must move from the spot, Théoden says he will go in a group of twelve, and Gandalf agrees.<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "'I will keep Éomer and ten Riders,' said the king. 'They shall ride with me at early day. The rest may go with Aragorn and ride as soon as they have a mind.' 'As you will,' said Gandalf."</ref> Then when the trip to Helm's Deep starts, the number has increased to twenty-six, and Aragorn goes with Théoden.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "Soon all were ready to depart: twenty-four horses, with Gimli behind Legolas, and Merry in front of Aragorn."</ref> The trip from Helm's Deep to Dunharrow has a group of five hundred.<ref>{{RK|V2}}, "A thousand spears had indeed already ridden away at night, but still there would be some five hundred more to go with the king."</ref> They do ride through the hills, as Gandalf had said. "Most of the time" they're in a group bigger than three.<ref>{{RK|V3}}, "Sometimes where the way was broader he [Merry] had ridden at the king's side, not noticing that many of the Riders smiled to see the two together: the hobbit on his little shaggy grey pony, and the Lord of Rohan on his great white horse. [...] But most of the time, especially on the last day, Merry had ridden by himself just behind the king, saying nothing, and trying to understand the slow sonorous speech of Rohan that he heard the men behind him using."</ref>
;Explanation: The Fiftieth Anniversary Edition contains a clarifying addition to contextualize the order: "He will ride from there '''with many men''' to Dunharrow by paths among the hills." (Emphasis added.) This may suggest that "by paths among the hills" is in opposition to "openly over the land". So long as the large groups traveled by the hills, they were not conspicuous to the Lidless Eye.

====Knowledge of the ''Palantíri''====
After Gandalf learns that the crystal ball he has recovered is the ''[[palantír]]'' of [[Orthanc]], he tells [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]] the [[White Council]] didn't know any of the ''palantíri'' (presumably those of [[Gondor]]) survived disaster in Gondor (presumably the [[Kin-strife]]).<ref>{{TT|III11}}, "It was not known to us that any of the ''palantíri'' had escaped the ruin of Gondor."</ref> However, after [[Denethor]] reveals his ''palantír'', Gandalf says in earlier editions, "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, long have I known that here in the White Tower, as at Orthanc, one of the Seven Stones was preserved."<ref>{{HM|RK}}, "[[The Pyre of Denethor]]"</ref>
;Explanation: Gandalf could have learned about the two ''palantíri'' by himself, after the last time the White Council met (66 years earlier), or he was concealing his knowledge so as to keep secret his source for this information.

:However, in the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition, the sentence was revised to read, "Though the Stewards deemed that it was a secret kept only by themselves, '''long ago I guessed''' that here in the White Tower, one at least of the Seven Seeing Stones was preserved." (Emphasis added.)

====Addition of the Westmarch (and Buckland) to the Shire====
In early editions, the "Prologue" to ''The Lord of the Rings'' contained the sentence "Outside the [[Farthing]]s were the East and West Marches: the [[Buckland]] and the [[Westmarch]] added to the Shire in {{SR|1462}}."<ref name="OldPrologue">{{FR|Prologue}}</ref> That had two inconsistencies with other parts of the text. First, the "Tale of Years" dates the event to {{SR|1452}}.<ref name="AppLater">{{App|Later}}</ref> Second, various points indicate that Buckland was part of the Shire. The clearest may be Merry's comment to the other hobbits, when they have gone through the tunnel under the [[High Hay]] from Buckland into the [[Old Forest]], that they have left the Shire.<ref>{{FR|I6}}, "'There!' said Merry. 'You have left the Shire, and are now outside, and on the edge of the Old Forest.'"</ref>
;Explanation: In the 50th Anniversary Edition, the sentence was changed to "Outside the Farthings were the East and West Marches: the Buckland; and the Westmarch added to the Shire in S.R. 1452." In addition to the correction of the date, the semicolon after "Buckland" indicates that Buckland was not added to the Shire after the War of the Ring, making the sentence consistent with the idea that it was already part of the Shire.<ref name="NewPrologue">{{FR|Prologue|50}}</ref>

====Mirror of Galadriel====
In editions prior to the 50th Anniversary Edition, the [[Appendix B|Tale of Years]] mentions that Frodo and Sam looked into the [[Mirror of Galadriel]] on [[14 February]]. However it is clear from the narrative that this occurred ''one day'' before departure on [[16 February]], not ''two''. [[Wayne G. Hammond|Hammond]] and [[Christina Scull|Scull]] decided to fix the Tale of Years so that the Mirror of Galadriel sequence happened on 15 February.

==From the publishers==
====Nameless Pass as an alternative name for Cirith Ungol in the index====
The index entry for Cirith Ungol has Nameless Pass as an (alternative) name in brackets, and the index entry for Nameless Pass has "see Cirith Ungol" after it in the following e-book editions:
* The Lord of the Rings (i.e. The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King together in one e-book) published by HarperCollinsPublishers 2005 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN: 978-0-007-32259-6
* The Return of the King, J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, Part 3 published by HarperCollins Publishers 2008 EPub Edition © MARCH 2009 ISBN: 978-0-007-32255-8
The description of the landscape below seen by Frodo from the winding stairs in the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' and the description of the landscape below seen by Sam from the pass of Cirith Ungol contradict that the Nameless Pass was an alternative name for the Pass of Cirith Ungol. In the chapter ''The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'' Frodo from above on the winding stair sees the wraith-road running from the dead city in a great revine at the head of the Morgul Valley to the "Nameless Pass" that is also referred to as the "main pass."

In the chapter ''The Tower of Cirith Ungol'' Sam sees a broad road running from the Tower of Cirith Ungol down to join the road that came over the Morgul Pass. "The dead city" seems to be an alternative name for Minas Morgul. "Wraith-road" seems to be an alternative name for the Morgul-road.

Frodo can see the road that runs from Minas Morgul in the great ravine at the head of the Morgul Vale to the Nameless Pass from his observation point high up on the winding stair that leads to the tunnel and then on to the pass of Cirith Ungol. Sine the road leads from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and winds down to join the road that came from the Morgul Pass, then Cirith Ungol must be higher up on the left side of the Nameless Pass, and the Nameless Pass cannot be the same as the Pass of Cirith Ungol. Since no other pass is mentioned in the landscape, the "Nameless Pass" must be the Morgul Pass (also referred to as the "main pass"), and Cirith Ungol must be the pass that is also referred to as the "high pass."

====HarperCollins 2005 EPub Edition of March 2009====
The entry that King Argeleb I was slain in battle in appendix B The Third Age is erroneously dated with the year 1977 instead of the year 1356 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. As a consequence the following entries up to and including the entry that many Periannath migrate from Bree erroneously have the date from the entry that immediately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Corsairs ravage Pelargir and slay King Minardil is erroneously dated with the year 1601 instead of the year 1634 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The year 1601 is the year for the entry that is two entries above this entry.

The entry that the Great Plague devastates Gondor is erroneously dated with the year 1634 instead of the year 1636 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966. The following entries up to and including the entry that Frumgar leads the Éothéod into the North also erroneously have the date from the entry that immeditately precedes each entry that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that the Nazgûl issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2002 instead of the year 2000 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry for the fall of Minas Ithil is erroneously dated with the year 2043 instead of the year 2002 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

The entry that King Eärnur becomes King of Gondor and is challenged by the Witch-king is erroneously dated with the year 2000 instead of the year 2043 that was in the edition of the ROTK by George Allen & Unwin from 1966.

{{References}}
[[Category:Debates]]

Talk:Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-11T12:47:12Z

Spearwielder: /* Two more columns in table? */ Reply

User:Spearwielder/sandbox

2024-04-11T04:09:37Z

Spearwielder:

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!First line!!Original title author spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]] 
| [[Bilbo Baggins]]
|-
|[[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]] 
| Unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Upon the hearth the fire is red 
|[[A Walking Song]] Bilbo Baggins [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Peregrin Took]]
|}

User:Spearwielder/sandbox

2024-04-11T04:05:27Z

Spearwielder: Created page with "{| class="wikitable sortable" |- !First line!!Original title author spoken, sung, or written by |- |The road goes ever on and on |Bilbo Baggins |- |Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky | Unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron spoken by Gandalf |- |Upon the hearth the fire is red |A Walking Song Bilbo Baggins Frodo Baggins, Samwise Gamgee,..."

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
!First line!!Original title author spoken, sung, or written by
|-
|[[The Road Goes Ever On (song)|The road goes ever on and on]]
|[[Bilbo Baggins]]
|-
|[[Ring Verse#Ring-verse|Three rings for the Elven-kings under the sky]]
| Unknown elf, incorporating a translation of two lines written by Sauron spoken by Gandalf
|-
|Upon the hearth the fire is red
|[[A Walking Song]] Bilbo Baggins [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Peregrin Took]]
|}

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-11T02:48:46Z

Spearwielder: Finish tabulification

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-11T02:22:11Z

Spearwielder: /* The Two Towers */ Finish Book III, do book IV

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-11T02:11:57Z

Spearwielder: Tabulify Book III, add accents, a few other tweaks

Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-11T01:47:49Z

Spearwielder: Tabulify Book II

Talk:Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-10T15:28:45Z

Spearwielder: /* Two more columns in table */

Talk:Poems in The Lord of the Rings

2024-04-10T15:28:26Z

Spearwielder: /* Two more columns in table */ new section

Song of Beren and Lúthien

2024-04-10T04:44:51Z

Spearwielder: Clean up English, triple rhymes

{{Unnamed}}
The '''tale of Tinúviel''', or the '''song of Beren and Lúthien''', is a poem found within the chapter "[[A Knife in the Dark]]" of ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]''. A part of it is sung by [[Strider]] to the Hobbits upon [[Weathertop]], explaining to them that it "is a song in the mode that is called ''[[ann-thennath]]'' among the [[Elves]] in our [[Common Speech]], and this is but a rough echo of it".
==Analysis==
The song consists of nine stanzas of eight lines each, rhymed ''ABAC BABC''. The C rhyme in each stanza is triple: the sixth syllable of the fourth line rhymes with the sixth syllable of the eighth line, and the seventh and eighth syllables of the fourth line are identical (or nearly) to those of the eighth. The poem's metre is [[Wikipedia:Iambic tetrameter|iambic tetrameter]] (four pairs of unstressed and stressed syllables).

Following Aragorn's words, [[Patrick Wynne]] and [[Carl F. Hostetter]] explain that the English metre tries to imitate what the [[Sindarin]] metre (''[[ann-thennath]]'') would have been in the original poem.

The song would be an extract translated from the ''[[Lay of Leithian]]'', specifically [[Lay of Leithian Canto III|Canto III]].<ref>[[Tolkien's Legendarium|''Tolkien's Legendarium: Essays on'' The History of Middle-earth]]: [[Patrick Wynne]] and [[Carl F. Hostetter]], "Three Elvish Verse Modes: ''Ann-thennath'', ''Minlamad thent'' / ''estent'', and ''Linnod''", pp. 113-120</ref>
It was also consistently influenced by ''[[Light as Leaf on Lindentree]]''.<ref>{{LB|1b}}</ref> The original version of this poem is contained in ''[[The Return of the Shadow]]''.<ref>{{RS|Attack}}, pp. 182-7</ref>

==Text==
<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left:20px;">
The leaves were long, the grass was green,
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of stars was in her hair,
And in her raiment glimmering.

There Beren came from mountains cold,
And lost he wandered under leaves,
And where the Elven-river rolled
He walked alone and sorrowing.
He peered between the hemlock-leaves
And saw in wonder flowers of gold
Upon her mantle and her sleeves,
And her hair like shadow following.

Enchantment healed his weary feet
That over hills were doomed to roam;
And forth he hastened, strong and fleet,
And grasped at moonbeams glistening.
Through woven woods in Elvenhome
She lightly fled on dancing feet,
And left him lonely still to roam
In the silent forest listening.

He heard there oft the flying sound
Of feet as light as linden-leaves,
Or music welling underground,
In hidden hollows quavering.
Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves,
And one by one with sighing sound
Whispering fell the beechen leaves
In the wintry woodland wavering.

He sought her ever, wandering far
Where leaves of years were thickly strewn,
By light of moon and ray of star
In frosty heavens shivering.
Her mantle glinted in the moon,
As on a hilltop high and far
She danced, and at her feet was strewn
A mist of silver quivering.

When winter passed, she came again,
And her song released the sudden spring,
Like rising lark, and falling rain,
And melting water bubbling.
He saw the elven-flowers spring
About her feet, and healed again
He longed by her to dance and sing
Upon the grass untroubling.

Again she fled, but swift he came.
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her by her elvish name,
And there she halted listening.
One moment stood she, and a spell
His voice laid on her: Beren came,
And doom fell on Tinúviel
That in his arms lay glistening.

As Beren looked into her eyes
Within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies
He saw there mirrored shimmering.
Tinúviel the elven-fair,
Immortal maiden elven-wise,
About him cast her shadowy hair
And arms like silver glimmering.

Long was the way that fate them bore,
O'er stony mountains cold and grey,
Through halls of iron and darkling door,
And woods of nightshade morrowless.
The Sundering Seas between them lay,
And yet at last they met once more,
And long ago they passed away
In the forest singing sorrowless.
</poem>

{{References}}
[[Category:Poems in The Fellowship of the Ring]]
[[Category:Songs]]

Talk:Misconceptions

2024-04-08T21:39:49Z

Spearwielder: /* Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest */

__TOC__

I salvaged some non-trivial examples from an recent version of [[fanon]] article. Since we have already other debates liked "mistakes in Tolkien's works", we can tolerate this article too. This I consider also useful because I have also fallen victim to such misconceptions. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I simply removed all of it from fanon for the sake of ease. An article is good (maybe rename it though to have some consistency.

:Now I'm off. Happy new year, all. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

::I think if this article gets a bit more polished, it might be useful to link to this on the main page.
::Happy new year, Ederchil~& Sage. [[User:Grond|Grond]] 22:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Maybe we can add also something about Lurtz, Orodreth and Gil-Galad ancestery...and uhm...the location of Dorwinion.

''Midden-Aarde Essays'' (a book of essays from Tolkien's work, made by a friend of my, what he is soon gonna publish in Dutch) says something about that in the chapter "Mysteries van de Hobbit, Dorwinion" ("Engimas of the Hobbit, Dorwinion") --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, [[Dorwinion]]'s location is not really a mystery - Tolkien placed it on the Western bank of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. How is Lurtz a misconception? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

::About your ½ rigth. It was only not Tolkien who placed there but his illustrator, latter Tolkien agreed with it. Many people think that it was [[Lurtz]] who killed Boromir while many [[Uruks]] did it.

::This comes from the chapter "Dorwinion":

''Uit de tekst van ‘De Hobbit’ is dan ook niet te achterhalen waar Dorwinion juist lag en wie er woonde. Desondanks is de ligging van het land op een andere manier duidelijk geworden. Pauline Baynes, de favoriete illustrator van Tolkien , zette Dorwinion in 1969 op de landkaart. Ze plaatste het land aan de monding van de Running, aan de noordwestelijke oevers van de Zee van Rhûn (zie kaart).''

''Hoewel Tolkien bezwaar had tegen sommige andere plaatsen die Pauline Baynes op de kaart gezet had, verklaarde hij zich wel akkoord met de ligging van Dorwinion. En ondanks het feit dat de Zee van Rhûn niet de locatie was die Tolkien oorspronkelijk in gedachten had, is het land sindsdien wel op die plaats blijven liggen. Christopher Tolkien merkt hetzelfde op in ‘The Lays of Beleriand’:

“Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, was communicated to her by my father, but its placing seems surprising.”''

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Dorwinion dan maar wel. Maar Lurtz komt alleen maar uit de film. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==Cleanup/Rewrite==
Going through the different "misconceptions":
# Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun": keep.
# The Arkenstone was a Silmaril: keep
# Elrond visits Elros in Númenor: what part of the text implies such a thing? With the current wording it seems the "misconception" is created to highlight a trivial abandoned concept.
# Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves: keep. It was portrayed sort of like that in the movies
# Legolas's age: omit, already at Legolas
# Legolas hair color: see previous
# Names of the Nazgûl: remove or rewrite
# A female Nazgûl: remove or merge with 7.
# Mrs. Thranduil: there are so many characters whose mother's name is unknown, it's pointless to single out Legolas. Also, if this stays, can we at least tell the reader what the name is?
# The War in the North: pointless. Maybe inspired by BfMeII, but I'm pretty sure the promotional material for the game explicitly mentioned it was fiction.
# The shape of Middle-earth: we can keep this, but with a rewrite
# Pointed ears: why is it under misconceptions if it's pointed out (npi) that it's true?
# Hobbit feet: huge? rephrase
# Déagol/Sméagol relationship: keep. Maybe also point out that they weren't Hobbits, but ancestors of Hobbits.
# Gollum's age: pointless. Nothing in the text suggests such a thing.
# Tengwar on Sting: pointless. We might change this to "Bilbo named Sting when he found it", because that's what happened in the RB movie, the 2003 game and I believe the radio plays too.
# Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai: rewrite.
# Dorwinion: keep

# Add: in light of Last Waterbender's recent edit to [[Bregalad]], we should also explain here that "beam" means "tree" here (cf. German ''baum'', Dutch ''boom'', Frisian ''beam''), not "a beam of light", and note something about translators messing up (Schuchart, for one, did).

Any other ideas? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:As I agree that most of your points are not really misconceptions, I removed some of them (and left others). I also removed the "shape of middle-earth" thing since it doesn't seem as a misconception to me. The map was drawn by Tolkien; it is not said that it was replaced by another map; nor it is contradicted by the Silmarillion. I also collected some more from other articles. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

==Legolas' hair?==
The article: "However, in The Fellowship of the Ring it is stated that Legolas' hair was "dark", and dark brown or black hair was most common among the Sindar."
: Is it so? Here I would like to see the sources, so that the misconceptions would not be replaced by other misconceptions. What it comes to Legolas' dark ''hair'', I suppose the source in the ''Fellowship'' is this: "His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." ({{FR|II9}}). But does this really tell anything about the colour of his hair or even of his skin? I suppose that we can only say, that when Frodo saw Legolas standing above him, the figure of the Elf was dark against the sky. – The source for the dark hair among the Sindar in general would also be nice to have. --Tik 11:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

== Buckland ==

I'd suggest taking out the reference to Buckland or changing it. Early editions stated explicitly that Buckland was added to the Shire, and I'm not sure it's clear that the change in recent editions is the one Tolkien would have made, so I wouldn't call it a misconception. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] 20:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

:The semicolon was present already in the second edition (1966). -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

== Sex of Nazgul ==

The current text says <<with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women>>. The part about "men" including women can be pretty much assumed - that term is usually used in place of "humankind", not as a plural of "man" in the sense of "male". Like in https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men. Would emphasize that, as to make clear that Tolkien hasn't given us any information about gender here. Given how the civilizations feel, a woman is not that likely, but not impossible either, but if we don't want to speculate, the fact is that no information in that regard is given.

:Honestly while we cannot definitively say that all of the Nazgul were men, we cannot definitively say they weren't either. Furthermore, in the case of the Numenorians cited in the article, the three Ruling Queens are specifically referred to as such in the text. I think if Tolkien had wanted there to be a woman among the Ringwraiths, he would have included an explicit mention of a queen or sorceress or whatever among their ranks. I'm tempted to remove that part from the article, but I admit we can't 100% say one way or the other. --[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 10:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'm actually not sure if this part of the article should even be here. I do not know what exactly I would label this part as, to be honest, but I do acknowledge that it is a least a valid point, so I want other people to weigh in on this. Personally I think at the very least break it out from the names of the Nazgul to its own section for better page formatting.--[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

:::The part about the sex of the Nazgul should stay. In Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) publications there is a female numenorean nazgul called Adunaphel and the names and the Sex of these nazgul exist on several sites on the internet. A lot of older Tolkien Fans are familiar with those names. Tolkien legt the question open. Tolkien also explicitly mentions the Rings for the elven "Kings" in the Ring verse in The Lord of the Rings, but Galadriel is one of the bearers of the Rings for the elves and she is female and is the de facto queen of Lorien although she does not call herself so according to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

==Order==
I can't judge the rewriting, but this needs some kind of order, isn't it? Also, maybe a subsection for misconceptions created by the movies? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

:It probably does, but I am not sure what kind of order it would need. Maybe by book?[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'd vote for alphabetical order. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::I think that if we separated the misconceptions by book or movie, it would be easier for people to find what they are looking for. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

::::Page has been reordered according to book/adapation (includes Jackson movies as well as other adaptations) and then alphabetically within the individual sections.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::::Perfect! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 08:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

== "Age of the Sun" ==

What about adding the new section about the common misconception that the First Age as if began with the first sunrise? -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 07:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

:Great idea! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 03:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

== Do We Need This Article? ==

The entire point of this wiki is to provide information on Tolkien's lore, so I am not sure how important this is. Also, I've never met anyone who claimed definitively that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, and it seems firmly in the fan-theory category (albeit, I admit, a rather weak one).
Also, I am not sure if we can fairly place Gil-Galad son of Fingon in here. Yes, the final version has Orodreth as his father, but that does not change the fact that ''a'' version had Fingon (I believe one also had Finrod, if I remember correctly). Gil-Galad's parentage is not mentioned in any writing published in Tolkien's lifetime, so I am not convinced it needs to be present. Following this pattern, we might add "Galadriel was involved in the Noldorin rebellion", since it is fairly clear Tolkien intended to rewrite her history so that she was not.
Also, this article states, "The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception, being the only one of the Seven or the Nine purposely intended for a non-Elf." I am not sure this is entirely true. In the Unfinished Tales, it is stated, "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find", which seems to suggest that at least one point, Tolkien considered Celebrimbor himself to have given out all Seven to the different Dwarf lords himself, nor, as far as I can tell, does Appendix A "On Dúrin's Folk" ever go against this idea.

[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) 18:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

== Deletion of "Merging Buckland" ==

This is not a misconception. Foster and others based it on the original text of the first and second editions. Hammond and Scull added a semicolon to remove the inconsistency. See [[Possible_inconsistencies_in_the_legendarium#Addition_of_the_Westmarch_(and_Buckland)_to_the_Shire]]. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:Are you sure that it was indeed Hammond & Scull who added a semicolon in the sentence? Just check out the second edition (1966) by yourself: https://archive.org/details/fellowshipofring0000unse_l5a0 -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
:Or https://archive.org/details/lordofrings0000unse_y8h4/ -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Very interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Here are two from Houghton Mifflin with no semicolon: [https://books.google.com/books?id=_6onAQAAMAAJ&q=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&dq=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKm6eg2auFAxUc8MkDHd9KBJYQ6AF6BAgGEAI] [https://books.google.com/books?id=UEmplIa6aOIC&q=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&dq=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn29q8w6uFAxVG_8kDHSXKCs8Q6AF6BAgNEAI]

::So clearly I was wrong to say Hammond and Scull added the semicolon. Do you know the history? Was it lost in the American editions or added at some point to the British ones?

::Anyway, I'd say the article should make it clear that the belief was caused by the lack of a semicolon. Whether it was a misconception depends on whether Tolkien put the semicolon there, which seems likely. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

== Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest ==

While I'm here, how about a section on the misconception that Tom Bombadil lives in the Old Forest and even that it constitutes his entire country? I see that now and then on Quora (where I’ve been correcting it). Here are some examples from a long article on Tom. “His realm is not just '''the Old Forest (though he lives in it''' by choice). His realm is Arda, where he was placed first before all other entities, creations and things.” And “If Tom and '''his domain in the Old Forest''' is more secure than even Doriath under Melian's protection and more secret or unassailable than Gondolin, either way, Tom further demonstrates he is more powerful than Morgoth.” <nowiki>[https://thenine1.quora.com/On-the-Entity-of-Tom-Bombadil-Ea-s-Deus-Ex-Terra]</nowiki>

By the way, I don't agree with that writer's conclusions either. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:I don't understand. Tom Bombadil obviously does live in the Old Forest. What is the misconception here? --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 17:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

::See the paragraph starting "Just as they felt their feet slowing down" near the end of the chapter "The Old Forest" and the following paragraph, which make it explicit that the hobbits left the forest and still have considerable walking to do to get to Tom's house. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Hmm, you're right, the house is on a bare hill just ''outside'' the forest. I didn't remember that. The lede of [[Tom Bombadil]] needs to be corrected too (it says "in the depths of the Old Forest"). --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::OK, I think we've got enough reason to add this topic. I just fixed the lead of [[Tom Bombadil]], by the way. What do people think of adding the previous version as a reference to how widespread the misconception is? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the location of his house to the article. There are also Web sites that say LOTRO and Minecraft: Middle-earth put Tom's house in the Old Forest. If people who can check those games or others want to add them to the references, I think that would be good. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::And you're right, of course, that Bombadil's realm comprises the Barrow-Downs as well as the forest, and apparently the surrounding country as far north as the East Road. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::And if you believe "[[Bombadil Goes Boating]]" (which I do), it extends west and a little south to parts of Buckland and the Marish at least as far as [[Farmer Maggot]]'s farm. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Bombadil Goes Boating is ''not'' Canon, IMO, but we know from FOTR that Bombadil knows Maggot and has talked to him, so he presumably comes to the Marish sometimes. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 03:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, you could imagine that Maggot visited Tom's house or something.
::::::To clarify what I wrote, I don't believe that the events in "Bombadil Goes Boating" necessarily occurred, but I am willing to rely on the implication that Tom visited Maggot, especially with the corroboration that he knows Maggot. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one, which I believe Robert Foster believed, is that Tom in "[[The Stone Troll]]" is based on Tom Bombadil, though they have nothing in common but the name. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 04:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)