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User:Undercat

2023-09-27T13:16:01Z

Undercat: Blanked the page

Dwarves of Nogrod

2023-06-04T02:14:04Z

Undercat: brief edit to clarify antecedents

{{people infobox
| name=Dwarves of Nogrod
| image=[[File:Henning Janssen - Nauglamir and the Doom of Thingol.jpg|250px]]
| caption="[[:File:Henning Janssen - Nauglamir and the Doom of Thingol.jpg|Nauglamir and the Doom of Thingol.jpg]]" by [[Henning Janssen]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| origin=
| location=[[Nogrod]], [[Blue Mountains]], [[Khazad-Dûm]]<ref name="Durin">{{App|Durin}}</ref>
| affiliation=
| rivalry=
| language=[[Khuzdul]], [[Sindarin]]
| members=[[Gamil Zirak]], [[Telchar]], [[Naugladur]]
| lifespan=c. 250 years
| distinctions=Greatest craftsmen in [[Middle-earth]]
| height=Five feet or less
| hair=
| skin=
| clothing=
| weapons=
}}
The '''Dwarves of Nogrod''' were the [[Dwarves|Dwarven]] people who dwelled at [[Nogrod]], one of the two dwarven cities in the [[Blue Mountains]] in the [[First Age]]. Along with their close [[Dwarves of Belegost|kinsmen]] in [[Belegost]], they were among the [[Dwarves of the Blue Mountains]].

==History==
During the [[Years of the Trees]] the western [[Fathers of the Dwarves]] awoke from beneath the [[Blue Mountains]] creating the lines of the [[Broadbeams]] and the [[Firebeards]]. These two houses built the great Dwarven cities of [[Nogrod]] and [[Belegost]] in the [[Blue Mountains]].<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref><ref group=note>It is not clear from the narratives whether each city belonged to either House, and whether the Dwarves of Nogrod consisted of either Firebeards or Broadbeams; it is possible that members of both Houses dwelled in either city.</ref>

They were initially friendly to the [[Elves]] of Beleriand, renowned as craftsmen and jewelers, such as [[Gamil Zirak]] whose works were to be found in the treasuries of King [[Thingol]] of [[Doriath]],<ref>{{UT|Narn}}, ''The Departure of Túrin''</ref> and [[Telchar]] known for the forging of weapons. Dwarves from the Blue Mountains, perhaps also those of Nogrod, aided the [[Noldor]] in the building of [[Nargothrond]].<ref name=doriath/><Ref>{{S|13}}</ref>

Dwarves of Nogrod, as well as their kinsmen of Belegost, participated in the [[Union of Maedhros]] supplying them with soldiers and weapons.<ref>{{S|20}}</ref>

Some craftsmen from Nogrod stayed in [[Menegroth]] and were asked by King [[Thingol]] of [[Doriath]] to set the [[Silmaril]] in the [[Nauglamir]]. But they coveted the Nauglamir they made and killed Thingol in his treasury, and fled, only to be slaughtered by the avenging Elves who killed all but two. The survivors returned to Nogrod, and lied to their kinsmen saying that Thingol refused to pay the craftsmen and for their work and killed them.

Although the [[Dwarves of Belegost]] refused to aid them, the Dwarves of Nogrod formed a great host which passed over [[Sarn Athrad]] intimidating the [[Sindar]] who fled before them. In the [[Battle of the Thousand Caves|sack the Menegroth]] they ravaged the Caves and Thingol's treasures. But on their return home they were hunted down by [[Beren|Beren Erchamion]] and killed by his army of [[Green-elves]] and a group of [[Ents]] at the [[Battle of Sarn Athrad]] as they were crossing the river.<ref name=doriath>{{S|Doriath}}</ref>

After the end of the [[First Age]], around {{SA|40}}, the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of [[Nogrod]] and [[Belegost]] in the [[Blue Mountains]] were ruined in the breaking of [[Thangorodrim]].<ref name="Durin"/> However, there always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of the Blue Mountains in days afterwards.<ref>{{UT|Concerning}}</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''1982-97: ''[[Middle-earth Role Playing]]'':'''
: The Dwarves of Nogrod are called '''Dwalin's Tribe'''.<ref>{{ICE|8004}}</ref><ref>[[Thomas Morwinsky]], "A Brief History of the Dwarven Mansions", in ''[[Other Minds]]'' issue 4 (July 2008)</ref>

==See also==
*[[Dwarves of Belegost]]

{{References|n}}

[[Category:Dwarven peoples]]
[[de:Nogrod]]
[[fi:Nogrod]]

Talk:Celebrimbor

2023-01-23T20:43:05Z

Undercat: /* References in the First Age section */

__TOC__
==Second thoughs==
I'm having second thoughts on my assumption that "Celebrimbor" comes from ''[[celeb]]'' + ''[[drambor]]''. While ''drambor'' means "clenched fist", as in for punching, ''[[paur]]'' means a fist as in holding a craft-tool or implement. Does anyone know which is correct? "Drambor" is closer to "-imbor" but the [[Quenya]] ''[[quár|quárë]]'' from Telperinquar is closer to [[Sindarin]] ''paur''. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:24, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:[[The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth]] defines it as 'Hand of Silver' or 'Silver Fist' as celebrin = silverlike; bor = hand, fist. Unfortunately ''drambor'' doesn't seem to be listed in the book. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::My Sindarin dictionary ([[Dragonflame]] 2.0 by Hiswelókë; excellent downloadable program by the way) has no entry for ''bor''. The entries for "fist" are ''drambor'' and ''paur''. I'm not quite willing to accept ''bor'' or ''paur'' just yet. Does anyone else have any input? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:37, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::Taking a second look at ''The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth'', it mentions ''paur'' as meaning first or hand. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::::Well, here is the article in the [http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html Tolkien Linguistic Dictionary]:

:::::'''''Celebrimbor''' — S-ised form of Telerin ''Telperimpar'', and Q ''Tyelpinquar''; see '''celeb''' silver, Telerin adjective ''telperin'', S adjective ''celebrin'' silver-like [appx], from '''KYÉLEP'''- silver [see Celeborn¹]; see also '''KWAR'''- fist, Q ''qáre'', Nol ''paur'', ''-bor'' [Etym], Q ''quárë'' [the ''grasp'' of the smith, not a fighter's fist; [appx]; 'Silver Grasp'; a great Elven smith, maker of the Three Rings of the Elves; devised the name ''Mithril'' ''

::::I have always found this site trusty enough. Tell me your opinion on it. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:58, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::::Narfil, I think you're right with the word ''paur''. From Hiswelókë's compilation: <blockquote>'''tegilbor'''* [tɛgˈil̡bɔr] n. one skilled in calligraphy, a calligrapher ◇ PM/318, VT/47:8 ◇ tegil+paur</blockquote>Hope this helps. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 15:13, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

==With or without Annatar?==

It says in this article that Celebrimbor made the Three Rings without the knowledge of Sauron. [[The Silmarillion]]:[[Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]] differs here. I won't quote the whole three paragraphs here, but it says that Sauron never touched them, ''but he desired them most'' due to their powers, among other things. It is clearly against the statement here. Now, I know that the Silmarillion is not always the authority. Is there any writing that contradicts this and supports the article? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:58, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

:Nothing's in the Letters. I'm going to change it, at least temporarily. By the way, do we have an "unverified" template? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:29, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

== Birth (and death) ==

I removed references from the article that Cel. was born in Valinor. They are unsourced and at least according to the EoA, no source mentions his birth.

Concerning his death, I read somewhere that his body was mutilated and used as a banner by Sauron's forces; [[:File:Abe_Papakhian_-_Death_of_Celebrimbor.jpg|this image]] backs up my memories. However "Of the Rings of Power" and "Shadows of the Past" don't mention such a detail. Where is this mentioned? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:I back you up in the second part too. I think it was from UT, "Galadriel and Celeborn". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

::You're right.

::{{Blockquote|In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.|{{UT|Concerning}}}}

::--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

== Shadows of Mordor ==
Is there anywhere on Celebrimbor's article that we should include his appearance in the latest Middle-earth video game, ''Shadows of Mordor''?
PS; funny, I got the question "What was the name of Sauron's Dark Land?" Pretty appropriate. - OutrightUndead

:You should create a "Portrayal in adaptations" section in the article, and a paragraph about the Shadows of Mordor game. You can look in other articles to see the appropriate format for those sections, for example [[Galadriel#Portrayal_in_adaptations]]. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

==Problem of Celebrimbor==
Now...in "The Lord of the Rings" Celebrimbor is said to be a descendant of Fëanor. However, in the later writings he was conceived as a descendant of Daeron. And as it that was not enough [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] also played with the idea that he was an elf of Gondolin. And in Tolkien's latest writings he was not a Noldo, but a Telerin elf who accompanied Teleporno (afterwards named Celeborn) and Galadriel in their voyage to Middle-earth...So...I think that article about Celebrimbor should be in the same category as Celeborn (considering the ambiguity of his lineage) [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:Completely disagree. Note 7 in "[[Of Dwarves and Men]]" makes it clear that Tolkien altered ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' in the second edition to specifically refer to [[Celebrimbor]] as a descedent of Fëanor. Christopher says quite clearly, in response to the 1968 jottings that Celebrimbor was Telerin, "''When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating the Celebrimbor 'was descended from Fëanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.''"

:Similarly, Hammond and Scull in ''A Reader's Companion'' are unequivocal about his ancestry (see p. 227). As far as I can see, there is no problem here; the difference with Celeborn is that there is an unresolved contradiction acknowledged by everyone (including Christopher) - that is not the case with Celebrimbor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

::There is only one problem with your statement. [[Christopher Tolkien]], for all his efforts and, undoubtedly considering his knowledge of the Tolkien's work, the fact remains that he is NOT [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]. As much as I am convinced considering his statement that "no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it would undoubtedly have felt bound by it" this still comes from the words of an editor, and not Tolkien himself.
::Speculations, no matter how well-versed in the lore, should be considered suspect. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:::As there is vastly more material published by Christopher than by J.R.R.T. himself, I think we are on a very perilous road if we ignore his commentary on his father's writings. Can you name me any Tolkien scholar who thinks that Celebrimbor is anything other than a Noldor, or, indeed, that there is a reasonable debate to be had about his heritage? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

== Celebrimbor in Gondolin ==
So, I've been examining the various texts relating to Celebrimbor and it seems to me that the version where he was a descendant of Feanor (as in the 2nd edition of the LOTR) who followed him into exile (as in PoME) and later repudiated his father Curufin in Nargothrond (as in the published ''Silmarillion'') is the "definitive" or base version which should go into the main section of the article.

However, I see no non-contrived way to reconcile it with the version where he was a smith of Gondolin. Did he go with Turgon from Vinyamar to Gondolin when it was first established - how did he then appear in Nargothrond while Gondolin was still a secret? Did he fight in the Nirnaeth and then joined the retreating Elves of Gondolin - possibly? But all this is bordering on fanfiction. More to the point, when Tolkien devised this origin of Celebrimbor, he did not imagine him as being descended from Feanor - hence the addition to the 2nd version of LOTR.

All that said, I vote that we move the Gondolin material into OVOTL. (Also, him being in love with Galadriel is also from that same conception I believe - it would make it kind of disturbing if he were a grandson of Feanor, and therefore a first cousin once removed to Galadriel.) - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, what should we do about the Elessar stuff? I vote for all of it to go to OVOTL too. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:I agree, moving the statements to OVOTL seems the reasonable spot for them. The reader can decide how much weight they want to give them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, the Son of Curufin being in Gondolin is a clever way to try to reconcile irreconcilable canon, but there is no way that the canonical son of Curufin could have been a smith in Gondolin (which was a closed city), and I'm not sure why that's privileged over trying to reconcile the versions where he's Telerin or Sindarin with Appendix A. Another vote for moving the Gondolin material to OVOTL (likewise with the Galadriel romance - again the smith of Gondolin version - and the Elessar, which has enough different origins that I'd automatically think it OVOTL). - [[User:Undercat|Undercat]] 19:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

::Now that I think of it, I'm also kind of on the fence regarding the whole Celebrimbor usurps Galadriel and Celeborn thing. What do other users here think? - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 19:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

:It seems a bit of a conundrum, at least to me. Indeed Celebrimbor's partaking in the Nirnaeth and the subsequent retreat to Gondolin would seem the most likely way of entering the city. Either by following that retreat; by being espied by Thorondor and the eagles; or simply by "magic and destiny", it seems certain to me that he would not be denied entry; being kinsman of the king (same as Maeglin and Eöl). Regarding the Elessar, either Celebrimbor or Enerdhil have created it; with the latest version (which says to have been created by Celebrimbor) being written about the same time as the essay "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn", which is freely used as references in the character's respective pages. As Untercat points, it is indeed a clever way to try to reconcile the irreconcilable canon. Hmm. Pretty tough to say, yet I myself vote against moving it to OVOTL. {{unsigned|Tarkil}}

:Ivar, I recommend you to check ''The History of The Lord of the Rings'' and identify the first mention of Celembrimbor in the legendarium. I just finished describing the evolution of Galadriel throughtout the composition of TLOTR and it's a very important startpoint for the OVOTL section.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 20:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

== References in the First Age section ==

The references in the first two paragraphs of the First Age section could stand to be cleaned up. There's a reference to the Shibboleth about Curufin's character, but the Shibboleth notably does ''not'' have Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with the Exiles (Idril and Orodreth are said to be the only great-grandchildren of Finwe who leave) and the line about Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with Feanor references 'Of the Flight of the Noldor,' where Celebrimbor himself is not mentioned (he first shows up in the Silmarillion in 'Of Beren and Luthien.')

I propose rewriting those paragraphs to reference ''only'' Footnote 7 in 'Of Dwarves and Men', which has both Curufin as inheriting his father's skills (thus no need for a Shibboleth reference) and Curufin having "a son [=Celebrimbor] who came with him into exile" (thus no need for a reference to 'Of the Flight of the Noldor'). The entire First Age history of Celebrimbor son of Curufin is contained in Footnote 7 and the editorial insertion Christopher made in 'Of Beren and Luthien' to include Celebrimbor parting ways with Curufin and I think it better to rely on those rather than use sources that do not mention Celebrimbor himself (especially since one of those sources, the Shibboleth, contradicts the history as laid out in this section). --[[User:Undercat|Undercat]] ([[User talk:Undercat|talk]]) 20:38, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Celebrimbor

2023-01-23T20:39:35Z

Undercat: /* References in the First Age section */

__TOC__
==Second thoughs==
I'm having second thoughts on my assumption that "Celebrimbor" comes from ''[[celeb]]'' + ''[[drambor]]''. While ''drambor'' means "clenched fist", as in for punching, ''[[paur]]'' means a fist as in holding a craft-tool or implement. Does anyone know which is correct? "Drambor" is closer to "-imbor" but the [[Quenya]] ''[[quár|quárë]]'' from Telperinquar is closer to [[Sindarin]] ''paur''. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:24, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:[[The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth]] defines it as 'Hand of Silver' or 'Silver Fist' as celebrin = silverlike; bor = hand, fist. Unfortunately ''drambor'' doesn't seem to be listed in the book. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::My Sindarin dictionary ([[Dragonflame]] 2.0 by Hiswelókë; excellent downloadable program by the way) has no entry for ''bor''. The entries for "fist" are ''drambor'' and ''paur''. I'm not quite willing to accept ''bor'' or ''paur'' just yet. Does anyone else have any input? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:37, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::Taking a second look at ''The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth'', it mentions ''paur'' as meaning first or hand. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::::Well, here is the article in the [http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html Tolkien Linguistic Dictionary]:

:::::'''''Celebrimbor''' — S-ised form of Telerin ''Telperimpar'', and Q ''Tyelpinquar''; see '''celeb''' silver, Telerin adjective ''telperin'', S adjective ''celebrin'' silver-like [appx], from '''KYÉLEP'''- silver [see Celeborn¹]; see also '''KWAR'''- fist, Q ''qáre'', Nol ''paur'', ''-bor'' [Etym], Q ''quárë'' [the ''grasp'' of the smith, not a fighter's fist; [appx]; 'Silver Grasp'; a great Elven smith, maker of the Three Rings of the Elves; devised the name ''Mithril'' ''

::::I have always found this site trusty enough. Tell me your opinion on it. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:58, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::::Narfil, I think you're right with the word ''paur''. From Hiswelókë's compilation: <blockquote>'''tegilbor'''* [tɛgˈil̡bɔr] n. one skilled in calligraphy, a calligrapher ◇ PM/318, VT/47:8 ◇ tegil+paur</blockquote>Hope this helps. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 15:13, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

==With or without Annatar?==

It says in this article that Celebrimbor made the Three Rings without the knowledge of Sauron. [[The Silmarillion]]:[[Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]] differs here. I won't quote the whole three paragraphs here, but it says that Sauron never touched them, ''but he desired them most'' due to their powers, among other things. It is clearly against the statement here. Now, I know that the Silmarillion is not always the authority. Is there any writing that contradicts this and supports the article? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:58, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

:Nothing's in the Letters. I'm going to change it, at least temporarily. By the way, do we have an "unverified" template? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:29, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

== Birth (and death) ==

I removed references from the article that Cel. was born in Valinor. They are unsourced and at least according to the EoA, no source mentions his birth.

Concerning his death, I read somewhere that his body was mutilated and used as a banner by Sauron's forces; [[:File:Abe_Papakhian_-_Death_of_Celebrimbor.jpg|this image]] backs up my memories. However "Of the Rings of Power" and "Shadows of the Past" don't mention such a detail. Where is this mentioned? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:I back you up in the second part too. I think it was from UT, "Galadriel and Celeborn". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

::You're right.

::{{Blockquote|In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.|{{UT|Concerning}}}}

::--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

== Shadows of Mordor ==
Is there anywhere on Celebrimbor's article that we should include his appearance in the latest Middle-earth video game, ''Shadows of Mordor''?
PS; funny, I got the question "What was the name of Sauron's Dark Land?" Pretty appropriate. - OutrightUndead

:You should create a "Portrayal in adaptations" section in the article, and a paragraph about the Shadows of Mordor game. You can look in other articles to see the appropriate format for those sections, for example [[Galadriel#Portrayal_in_adaptations]]. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

==Problem of Celebrimbor==
Now...in "The Lord of the Rings" Celebrimbor is said to be a descendant of Fëanor. However, in the later writings he was conceived as a descendant of Daeron. And as it that was not enough [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] also played with the idea that he was an elf of Gondolin. And in Tolkien's latest writings he was not a Noldo, but a Telerin elf who accompanied Teleporno (afterwards named Celeborn) and Galadriel in their voyage to Middle-earth...So...I think that article about Celebrimbor should be in the same category as Celeborn (considering the ambiguity of his lineage) [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:Completely disagree. Note 7 in "[[Of Dwarves and Men]]" makes it clear that Tolkien altered ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' in the second edition to specifically refer to [[Celebrimbor]] as a descedent of Fëanor. Christopher says quite clearly, in response to the 1968 jottings that Celebrimbor was Telerin, "''When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating the Celebrimbor 'was descended from Fëanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.''"

:Similarly, Hammond and Scull in ''A Reader's Companion'' are unequivocal about his ancestry (see p. 227). As far as I can see, there is no problem here; the difference with Celeborn is that there is an unresolved contradiction acknowledged by everyone (including Christopher) - that is not the case with Celebrimbor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

::There is only one problem with your statement. [[Christopher Tolkien]], for all his efforts and, undoubtedly considering his knowledge of the Tolkien's work, the fact remains that he is NOT [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]. As much as I am convinced considering his statement that "no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it would undoubtedly have felt bound by it" this still comes from the words of an editor, and not Tolkien himself.
::Speculations, no matter how well-versed in the lore, should be considered suspect. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:::As there is vastly more material published by Christopher than by J.R.R.T. himself, I think we are on a very perilous road if we ignore his commentary on his father's writings. Can you name me any Tolkien scholar who thinks that Celebrimbor is anything other than a Noldor, or, indeed, that there is a reasonable debate to be had about his heritage? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

== Celebrimbor in Gondolin ==
So, I've been examining the various texts relating to Celebrimbor and it seems to me that the version where he was a descendant of Feanor (as in the 2nd edition of the LOTR) who followed him into exile (as in PoME) and later repudiated his father Curufin in Nargothrond (as in the published ''Silmarillion'') is the "definitive" or base version which should go into the main section of the article.

However, I see no non-contrived way to reconcile it with the version where he was a smith of Gondolin. Did he go with Turgon from Vinyamar to Gondolin when it was first established - how did he then appear in Nargothrond while Gondolin was still a secret? Did he fight in the Nirnaeth and then joined the retreating Elves of Gondolin - possibly? But all this is bordering on fanfiction. More to the point, when Tolkien devised this origin of Celebrimbor, he did not imagine him as being descended from Feanor - hence the addition to the 2nd version of LOTR.

All that said, I vote that we move the Gondolin material into OVOTL. (Also, him being in love with Galadriel is also from that same conception I believe - it would make it kind of disturbing if he were a grandson of Feanor, and therefore a first cousin once removed to Galadriel.) - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, what should we do about the Elessar stuff? I vote for all of it to go to OVOTL too. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:I agree, moving the statements to OVOTL seems the reasonable spot for them. The reader can decide how much weight they want to give them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, the Son of Curufin being in Gondolin is a clever way to try to reconcile irreconcilable canon, but there is no way that the canonical son of Curufin could have been a smith in Gondolin (which was a closed city), and I'm not sure why that's privileged over trying to reconcile the versions where he's Telerin or Sindarin with Appendix A. Another vote for moving the Gondolin material to OVOTL (likewise with the Galadriel romance - again the smith of Gondolin version - and the Elessar, which has enough different origins that I'd automatically think it OVOTL). - [[User:Undercat|Undercat]] 19:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

::Now that I think of it, I'm also kind of on the fence regarding the whole Celebrimbor usurps Galadriel and Celeborn thing. What do other users here think? - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 19:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

:It seems a bit of a conundrum, at least to me. Indeed Celebrimbor's partaking in the Nirnaeth and the subsequent retreat to Gondolin would seem the most likely way of entering the city. Either by following that retreat; by being espied by Thorondor and the eagles; or simply by "magic and destiny", it seems certain to me that he would not be denied entry; being kinsman of the king (same as Maeglin and Eöl). Regarding the Elessar, either Celebrimbor or Enerdhil have created it; with the latest version (which says to have been created by Celebrimbor) being written about the same time as the essay "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn", which is freely used as references in the character's respective pages. As Untercat points, it is indeed a clever way to try to reconcile the irreconcilable canon. Hmm. Pretty tough to say, yet I myself vote against moving it to OVOTL. {{unsigned|Tarkil}}

:Ivar, I recommend you to check ''The History of The Lord of the Rings'' and identify the first mention of Celembrimbor in the legendarium. I just finished describing the evolution of Galadriel throughtout the composition of TLOTR and it's a very important startpoint for the OVOTL section.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 20:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

== References in the First Age section ==

The references in the first two paragraphs of the First Age section could stand to be cleaned up. There's a reference to the Shibboleth about Curufin's character, but the Shibboleth notably does ''not'' have Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with the Exiles (Idril and Orodreth are said to be the only great-grandchildren of Finwe who leave) and the line about Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with Feanor references 'Of the Flight of the Noldor,' where Celebrimbor himself is not mentioned (he first shows up in the Silmarillion in 'Of Beren and Luthien.'

I propose rewriting those paragraphs to reference ''only'' Footnote 7 in 'Of Dwarves and Men', which has both Curufin as inheriting his father's skills (thus no need for a Shibboleth reference) and Curufin having "a son [=Celebrimbor] who came with him into exile" (thus no need for a reference to 'Of the Flight of the Noldor'). The entire First Age history of Celebrimbor son of Curufin is contained in Footnote 7 and the editorial insertion Christopher made in 'Of Beren and Luthien' to include Celebrimbor parting ways with Curufin and I think it better to rely on that rather than use sources that do not mention Celebrimbor himself (especially since one of those sources, the Shibboleth, contradicts the history as laid out in this section). --[[User:Undercat|Undercat]] ([[User talk:Undercat|talk]]) 20:38, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Celebrimbor

2023-01-23T20:38:33Z

Undercat: /* References in the First Age section */

__TOC__
==Second thoughs==
I'm having second thoughts on my assumption that "Celebrimbor" comes from ''[[celeb]]'' + ''[[drambor]]''. While ''drambor'' means "clenched fist", as in for punching, ''[[paur]]'' means a fist as in holding a craft-tool or implement. Does anyone know which is correct? "Drambor" is closer to "-imbor" but the [[Quenya]] ''[[quár|quárë]]'' from Telperinquar is closer to [[Sindarin]] ''paur''. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:24, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:[[The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth]] defines it as 'Hand of Silver' or 'Silver Fist' as celebrin = silverlike; bor = hand, fist. Unfortunately ''drambor'' doesn't seem to be listed in the book. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::My Sindarin dictionary ([[Dragonflame]] 2.0 by Hiswelókë; excellent downloadable program by the way) has no entry for ''bor''. The entries for "fist" are ''drambor'' and ''paur''. I'm not quite willing to accept ''bor'' or ''paur'' just yet. Does anyone else have any input? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:37, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::Taking a second look at ''The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth'', it mentions ''paur'' as meaning first or hand. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::::Well, here is the article in the [http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html Tolkien Linguistic Dictionary]:

:::::'''''Celebrimbor''' — S-ised form of Telerin ''Telperimpar'', and Q ''Tyelpinquar''; see '''celeb''' silver, Telerin adjective ''telperin'', S adjective ''celebrin'' silver-like [appx], from '''KYÉLEP'''- silver [see Celeborn¹]; see also '''KWAR'''- fist, Q ''qáre'', Nol ''paur'', ''-bor'' [Etym], Q ''quárë'' [the ''grasp'' of the smith, not a fighter's fist; [appx]; 'Silver Grasp'; a great Elven smith, maker of the Three Rings of the Elves; devised the name ''Mithril'' ''

::::I have always found this site trusty enough. Tell me your opinion on it. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:58, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::::Narfil, I think you're right with the word ''paur''. From Hiswelókë's compilation: <blockquote>'''tegilbor'''* [tɛgˈil̡bɔr] n. one skilled in calligraphy, a calligrapher ◇ PM/318, VT/47:8 ◇ tegil+paur</blockquote>Hope this helps. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 15:13, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

==With or without Annatar?==

It says in this article that Celebrimbor made the Three Rings without the knowledge of Sauron. [[The Silmarillion]]:[[Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]] differs here. I won't quote the whole three paragraphs here, but it says that Sauron never touched them, ''but he desired them most'' due to their powers, among other things. It is clearly against the statement here. Now, I know that the Silmarillion is not always the authority. Is there any writing that contradicts this and supports the article? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:58, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

:Nothing's in the Letters. I'm going to change it, at least temporarily. By the way, do we have an "unverified" template? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:29, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

== Birth (and death) ==

I removed references from the article that Cel. was born in Valinor. They are unsourced and at least according to the EoA, no source mentions his birth.

Concerning his death, I read somewhere that his body was mutilated and used as a banner by Sauron's forces; [[:File:Abe_Papakhian_-_Death_of_Celebrimbor.jpg|this image]] backs up my memories. However "Of the Rings of Power" and "Shadows of the Past" don't mention such a detail. Where is this mentioned? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:I back you up in the second part too. I think it was from UT, "Galadriel and Celeborn". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

::You're right.

::{{Blockquote|In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.|{{UT|Concerning}}}}

::--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

== Shadows of Mordor ==
Is there anywhere on Celebrimbor's article that we should include his appearance in the latest Middle-earth video game, ''Shadows of Mordor''?
PS; funny, I got the question "What was the name of Sauron's Dark Land?" Pretty appropriate. - OutrightUndead

:You should create a "Portrayal in adaptations" section in the article, and a paragraph about the Shadows of Mordor game. You can look in other articles to see the appropriate format for those sections, for example [[Galadriel#Portrayal_in_adaptations]]. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

==Problem of Celebrimbor==
Now...in "The Lord of the Rings" Celebrimbor is said to be a descendant of Fëanor. However, in the later writings he was conceived as a descendant of Daeron. And as it that was not enough [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] also played with the idea that he was an elf of Gondolin. And in Tolkien's latest writings he was not a Noldo, but a Telerin elf who accompanied Teleporno (afterwards named Celeborn) and Galadriel in their voyage to Middle-earth...So...I think that article about Celebrimbor should be in the same category as Celeborn (considering the ambiguity of his lineage) [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:Completely disagree. Note 7 in "[[Of Dwarves and Men]]" makes it clear that Tolkien altered ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' in the second edition to specifically refer to [[Celebrimbor]] as a descedent of Fëanor. Christopher says quite clearly, in response to the 1968 jottings that Celebrimbor was Telerin, "''When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating the Celebrimbor 'was descended from Fëanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.''"

:Similarly, Hammond and Scull in ''A Reader's Companion'' are unequivocal about his ancestry (see p. 227). As far as I can see, there is no problem here; the difference with Celeborn is that there is an unresolved contradiction acknowledged by everyone (including Christopher) - that is not the case with Celebrimbor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

::There is only one problem with your statement. [[Christopher Tolkien]], for all his efforts and, undoubtedly considering his knowledge of the Tolkien's work, the fact remains that he is NOT [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]. As much as I am convinced considering his statement that "no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it would undoubtedly have felt bound by it" this still comes from the words of an editor, and not Tolkien himself.
::Speculations, no matter how well-versed in the lore, should be considered suspect. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:::As there is vastly more material published by Christopher than by J.R.R.T. himself, I think we are on a very perilous road if we ignore his commentary on his father's writings. Can you name me any Tolkien scholar who thinks that Celebrimbor is anything other than a Noldor, or, indeed, that there is a reasonable debate to be had about his heritage? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

== Celebrimbor in Gondolin ==
So, I've been examining the various texts relating to Celebrimbor and it seems to me that the version where he was a descendant of Feanor (as in the 2nd edition of the LOTR) who followed him into exile (as in PoME) and later repudiated his father Curufin in Nargothrond (as in the published ''Silmarillion'') is the "definitive" or base version which should go into the main section of the article.

However, I see no non-contrived way to reconcile it with the version where he was a smith of Gondolin. Did he go with Turgon from Vinyamar to Gondolin when it was first established - how did he then appear in Nargothrond while Gondolin was still a secret? Did he fight in the Nirnaeth and then joined the retreating Elves of Gondolin - possibly? But all this is bordering on fanfiction. More to the point, when Tolkien devised this origin of Celebrimbor, he did not imagine him as being descended from Feanor - hence the addition to the 2nd version of LOTR.

All that said, I vote that we move the Gondolin material into OVOTL. (Also, him being in love with Galadriel is also from that same conception I believe - it would make it kind of disturbing if he were a grandson of Feanor, and therefore a first cousin once removed to Galadriel.) - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, what should we do about the Elessar stuff? I vote for all of it to go to OVOTL too. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:I agree, moving the statements to OVOTL seems the reasonable spot for them. The reader can decide how much weight they want to give them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, the Son of Curufin being in Gondolin is a clever way to try to reconcile irreconcilable canon, but there is no way that the canonical son of Curufin could have been a smith in Gondolin (which was a closed city), and I'm not sure why that's privileged over trying to reconcile the versions where he's Telerin or Sindarin with Appendix A. Another vote for moving the Gondolin material to OVOTL (likewise with the Galadriel romance - again the smith of Gondolin version - and the Elessar, which has enough different origins that I'd automatically think it OVOTL). - [[User:Undercat|Undercat]] 19:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

::Now that I think of it, I'm also kind of on the fence regarding the whole Celebrimbor usurps Galadriel and Celeborn thing. What do other users here think? - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 19:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

:It seems a bit of a conundrum, at least to me. Indeed Celebrimbor's partaking in the Nirnaeth and the subsequent retreat to Gondolin would seem the most likely way of entering the city. Either by following that retreat; by being espied by Thorondor and the eagles; or simply by "magic and destiny", it seems certain to me that he would not be denied entry; being kinsman of the king (same as Maeglin and Eöl). Regarding the Elessar, either Celebrimbor or Enerdhil have created it; with the latest version (which says to have been created by Celebrimbor) being written about the same time as the essay "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn", which is freely used as references in the character's respective pages. As Untercat points, it is indeed a clever way to try to reconcile the irreconcilable canon. Hmm. Pretty tough to say, yet I myself vote against moving it to OVOTL. {{unsigned|Tarkil}}

:Ivar, I recommend you to check ''The History of The Lord of the Rings'' and identify the first mention of Celembrimbor in the legendarium. I just finished describing the evolution of Galadriel throughtout the composition of TLOTR and it's a very important startpoint for the OVOTL section.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 20:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

== References in the First Age section ==

The references in the first two paragraphs of the First Age section could stand to be cleaned up. There's a reference to the Shibboleth about Curufin's character, but the Shibboleth notably does ''not'' have Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with the Exiles (Idril and Orodreth are said to be the only great-grandchildren of Finwe who leave) and the line about Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with Feanor references 'Of the Flight of the Noldor,' where Celebrimbor himself is not mentioned (he first shows up in the Silmarillion in 'Of Beren and Luthien.'

I propose rewriting those paragraphs to reference ''only'' Footnote 7 in 'Of Dwarves and Men', which has both Curufin as inheriting his father's skills (thus no need for a Shibboleth reference) and Curufin having "a son [=Celebrimbor] who came with him into exile" (thus no need for a reference to 'Of the Flight of the Noldor'). The entire First Age history of Celebrimbor son of Curufin is contained in Footnote 7 and the editorial insertion Christopher made in 'Of Beren and Luthien' to include Celebrimbor parting ways with Curufin and I think it better to rely on that rather than use sources that do not mention Celebrimbor himself. --[[User:Undercat|Undercat]] ([[User talk:Undercat|talk]]) 20:38, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Celebrimbor

2023-01-23T20:38:09Z

Undercat: /* References in the First Age section */ new section

__TOC__
==Second thoughs==
I'm having second thoughts on my assumption that "Celebrimbor" comes from ''[[celeb]]'' + ''[[drambor]]''. While ''drambor'' means "clenched fist", as in for punching, ''[[paur]]'' means a fist as in holding a craft-tool or implement. Does anyone know which is correct? "Drambor" is closer to "-imbor" but the [[Quenya]] ''[[quár|quárë]]'' from Telperinquar is closer to [[Sindarin]] ''paur''. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:24, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:[[The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth]] defines it as 'Hand of Silver' or 'Silver Fist' as celebrin = silverlike; bor = hand, fist. Unfortunately ''drambor'' doesn't seem to be listed in the book. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::My Sindarin dictionary ([[Dragonflame]] 2.0 by Hiswelókë; excellent downloadable program by the way) has no entry for ''bor''. The entries for "fist" are ''drambor'' and ''paur''. I'm not quite willing to accept ''bor'' or ''paur'' just yet. Does anyone else have any input? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:37, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::Taking a second look at ''The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth'', it mentions ''paur'' as meaning first or hand. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::::Well, here is the article in the [http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html Tolkien Linguistic Dictionary]:

:::::'''''Celebrimbor''' — S-ised form of Telerin ''Telperimpar'', and Q ''Tyelpinquar''; see '''celeb''' silver, Telerin adjective ''telperin'', S adjective ''celebrin'' silver-like [appx], from '''KYÉLEP'''- silver [see Celeborn¹]; see also '''KWAR'''- fist, Q ''qáre'', Nol ''paur'', ''-bor'' [Etym], Q ''quárë'' [the ''grasp'' of the smith, not a fighter's fist; [appx]; 'Silver Grasp'; a great Elven smith, maker of the Three Rings of the Elves; devised the name ''Mithril'' ''

::::I have always found this site trusty enough. Tell me your opinion on it. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:58, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::::Narfil, I think you're right with the word ''paur''. From Hiswelókë's compilation: <blockquote>'''tegilbor'''* [tɛgˈil̡bɔr] n. one skilled in calligraphy, a calligrapher ◇ PM/318, VT/47:8 ◇ tegil+paur</blockquote>Hope this helps. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 15:13, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

==With or without Annatar?==

It says in this article that Celebrimbor made the Three Rings without the knowledge of Sauron. [[The Silmarillion]]:[[Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]] differs here. I won't quote the whole three paragraphs here, but it says that Sauron never touched them, ''but he desired them most'' due to their powers, among other things. It is clearly against the statement here. Now, I know that the Silmarillion is not always the authority. Is there any writing that contradicts this and supports the article? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:58, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

:Nothing's in the Letters. I'm going to change it, at least temporarily. By the way, do we have an "unverified" template? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:29, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

== Birth (and death) ==

I removed references from the article that Cel. was born in Valinor. They are unsourced and at least according to the EoA, no source mentions his birth.

Concerning his death, I read somewhere that his body was mutilated and used as a banner by Sauron's forces; [[:File:Abe_Papakhian_-_Death_of_Celebrimbor.jpg|this image]] backs up my memories. However "Of the Rings of Power" and "Shadows of the Past" don't mention such a detail. Where is this mentioned? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:I back you up in the second part too. I think it was from UT, "Galadriel and Celeborn". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

::You're right.

::{{Blockquote|In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.|{{UT|Concerning}}}}

::--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

== Shadows of Mordor ==
Is there anywhere on Celebrimbor's article that we should include his appearance in the latest Middle-earth video game, ''Shadows of Mordor''?
PS; funny, I got the question "What was the name of Sauron's Dark Land?" Pretty appropriate. - OutrightUndead

:You should create a "Portrayal in adaptations" section in the article, and a paragraph about the Shadows of Mordor game. You can look in other articles to see the appropriate format for those sections, for example [[Galadriel#Portrayal_in_adaptations]]. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

==Problem of Celebrimbor==
Now...in "The Lord of the Rings" Celebrimbor is said to be a descendant of Fëanor. However, in the later writings he was conceived as a descendant of Daeron. And as it that was not enough [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] also played with the idea that he was an elf of Gondolin. And in Tolkien's latest writings he was not a Noldo, but a Telerin elf who accompanied Teleporno (afterwards named Celeborn) and Galadriel in their voyage to Middle-earth...So...I think that article about Celebrimbor should be in the same category as Celeborn (considering the ambiguity of his lineage) [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:Completely disagree. Note 7 in "[[Of Dwarves and Men]]" makes it clear that Tolkien altered ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' in the second edition to specifically refer to [[Celebrimbor]] as a descedent of Fëanor. Christopher says quite clearly, in response to the 1968 jottings that Celebrimbor was Telerin, "''When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating the Celebrimbor 'was descended from Fëanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.''"

:Similarly, Hammond and Scull in ''A Reader's Companion'' are unequivocal about his ancestry (see p. 227). As far as I can see, there is no problem here; the difference with Celeborn is that there is an unresolved contradiction acknowledged by everyone (including Christopher) - that is not the case with Celebrimbor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

::There is only one problem with your statement. [[Christopher Tolkien]], for all his efforts and, undoubtedly considering his knowledge of the Tolkien's work, the fact remains that he is NOT [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]. As much as I am convinced considering his statement that "no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it would undoubtedly have felt bound by it" this still comes from the words of an editor, and not Tolkien himself.
::Speculations, no matter how well-versed in the lore, should be considered suspect. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:::As there is vastly more material published by Christopher than by J.R.R.T. himself, I think we are on a very perilous road if we ignore his commentary on his father's writings. Can you name me any Tolkien scholar who thinks that Celebrimbor is anything other than a Noldor, or, indeed, that there is a reasonable debate to be had about his heritage? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

== Celebrimbor in Gondolin ==
So, I've been examining the various texts relating to Celebrimbor and it seems to me that the version where he was a descendant of Feanor (as in the 2nd edition of the LOTR) who followed him into exile (as in PoME) and later repudiated his father Curufin in Nargothrond (as in the published ''Silmarillion'') is the "definitive" or base version which should go into the main section of the article.

However, I see no non-contrived way to reconcile it with the version where he was a smith of Gondolin. Did he go with Turgon from Vinyamar to Gondolin when it was first established - how did he then appear in Nargothrond while Gondolin was still a secret? Did he fight in the Nirnaeth and then joined the retreating Elves of Gondolin - possibly? But all this is bordering on fanfiction. More to the point, when Tolkien devised this origin of Celebrimbor, he did not imagine him as being descended from Feanor - hence the addition to the 2nd version of LOTR.

All that said, I vote that we move the Gondolin material into OVOTL. (Also, him being in love with Galadriel is also from that same conception I believe - it would make it kind of disturbing if he were a grandson of Feanor, and therefore a first cousin once removed to Galadriel.) - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, what should we do about the Elessar stuff? I vote for all of it to go to OVOTL too. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:I agree, moving the statements to OVOTL seems the reasonable spot for them. The reader can decide how much weight they want to give them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, the Son of Curufin being in Gondolin is a clever way to try to reconcile irreconcilable canon, but there is no way that the canonical son of Curufin could have been a smith in Gondolin (which was a closed city), and I'm not sure why that's privileged over trying to reconcile the versions where he's Telerin or Sindarin with Appendix A. Another vote for moving the Gondolin material to OVOTL (likewise with the Galadriel romance - again the smith of Gondolin version - and the Elessar, which has enough different origins that I'd automatically think it OVOTL). - [[User:Undercat|Undercat]] 19:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

::Now that I think of it, I'm also kind of on the fence regarding the whole Celebrimbor usurps Galadriel and Celeborn thing. What do other users here think? - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 19:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

:It seems a bit of a conundrum, at least to me. Indeed Celebrimbor's partaking in the Nirnaeth and the subsequent retreat to Gondolin would seem the most likely way of entering the city. Either by following that retreat; by being espied by Thorondor and the eagles; or simply by "magic and destiny", it seems certain to me that he would not be denied entry; being kinsman of the king (same as Maeglin and Eöl). Regarding the Elessar, either Celebrimbor or Enerdhil have created it; with the latest version (which says to have been created by Celebrimbor) being written about the same time as the essay "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn", which is freely used as references in the character's respective pages. As Untercat points, it is indeed a clever way to try to reconcile the irreconcilable canon. Hmm. Pretty tough to say, yet I myself vote against moving it to OVOTL. {{unsigned|Tarkil}}

:Ivar, I recommend you to check ''The History of The Lord of the Rings'' and identify the first mention of Celembrimbor in the legendarium. I just finished describing the evolution of Galadriel throughtout the composition of TLOTR and it's a very important startpoint for the OVOTL section.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 20:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

== References in the First Age section ==

The references in the first two paragraphs of the First Age section could stand to be cleaned up. There's a reference to the Shibboleth about Curufin's character, but the Shibboleth notably does ''not'' have Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with the Exiles (Idril and Orodreth are said to be the only great-grandchildren of Finwe who leave) and the line about Celebrimbor leaving for Middle-earth with Feanor references 'Of the Flight of the Noldor,' where Celebrimbor himself is not mentioned (he first shows up in the Silmarillion in 'Of Beren and Luthien.'

I propose rewriting those paragraphs to reference ''only'' Footnote 7 in 'Of Dwarves and Men', which has both Curufin as inheriting his father's skills (thus no need for a Shibboleth reference) and Curufin having "a son [=Celebrimbor] who came with him into exile" (thus no need for a reference to 'Of the Flight of the Noldor'). The entire First Age history of Celebrimbor son of Curufin is contained in Footnote 7 and the editorial insertion Christopher made in 'Of Beren and Luthien' to include Celebrimbor parting ways with Curufin and I think it better to rely on that rather than use sources that do not mention Celebrimbor himself.

Maglor

2022-08-19T21:07:21Z

Undercat: edited out an unreferenced claim without a source

{{noldor infobox
| name=Maglor
| image=[[File:Elena Kukanova - Maglor.jpeg|250px]]
| caption="Maglor" by [[:Category:Images by Elena Kukanova|Elena Kukanova]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈmaɡlɔr]}}
| othernames="[[Minstrels|the Minstrel]]" ''Kanafinwë'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]]), ''Makalaurë'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Amilessë|mn]])
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Eldamar]], [[Maglor's Gap]]
| affiliation=[[Oath of Fëanor]], [[Union of Maedhros]]
| language=[[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]]
| birth=Between {{YT|1190}} and {{YT|1362|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Tirion]]
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=Fate unknown
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Fëanor]]
| parentage=[[Fëanor]] & [[Nerdanel]]
| siblings=[[Maedhros]], [[Celegorm]], [[Caranthir]], [[Curufin]], [[Amrod]] and [[Amras]]
| spouse=Unnamed wife<ref>{{PM|XNotes}}, p. 318 (note 7)</ref>
| children=Fostered [[Elrond]] and [[Elros]]
| gender=Male
| height=Tall
| hair=Dark
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
{{Quote|Maglor was mighty among the singers of old, named only after [[Daeron]] of Doriath.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath]]"}}

'''Maglor''' was the second of the [[Sons of Fëanor]]. He was known for his [[Minstrels|poetry and singing]],<ref>{{S|Princes}}</ref> but in [[Tirion]] he swore the [[Oath of Fëanor]] and shared in the woes it bred.<ref name="Flight">{{S|Flight}}</ref>

==History==
Maglor was present at the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë]]. To what degree he participated in the slaughter is unknown, but later he composed the lament ''[[Noldolantë]]'', the Fall of the [[Noldor]], in memory of the terrible event.<ref name="Flight"/> Following [[Fëanor]] into exile, Maglor witnessed his father die after he had fought [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]].<ref>{{S|Return}}</ref>

[[File:Marya Filatova - The one who stays - 1.jpg|thumb|left|The Wife of Maglor. Art by [[Marya Filatova]]|125px]]
The sons of Fëanor settled in the eastern part of [[Beleriand]]. Maglor's ward was the opening in the hills between the two arms of the [[Gelion]] River, which acquired the name of '''[[Maglor's Gap]]'''. Due to the lack of hills, the Gap was a natural route for attacks from the north, and the Noldor kept a strength of cavalry in that region.<ref>{{S|Beleriand}}</ref>

Maglor's Gap was held for four and a half centuries. However, in the [[Dagor Bragollach]] the [[Dragons|dragon]] [[Glaurung]] invaded and laid waste to Maglor's land, forcing Maglor to flee to the fortress of his brother [[Maedhros]] on the hill of [[Himring]] to the west.<ref>{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref> Sixteen years later, he and Maedhros marched to the great battle that the [[Elves]] hoped would see their revenge upon [[Morgoth]], but they were defeated, partly by the treachery of [[Uldor the Accursed]]. Maglor himself slew Uldor, but all of the sons of Fëanor were wounded and they were forced to retreat to [[Mount Dolmed]]. The heavy loss led to the name of the battle thereafter: the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]] or the "Battle of Unnumbered Tears". Maglor and his brothers took to a wild woodland life in [[Ossiriand]].<ref>{{S|Fifth}}</ref>

Prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, one of the three [[Silmarils]] had been recovered from [[Iron Crown|Morgoth's Crown]].<ref>{{S|Beren}}</ref> From his parents, [[Dior|Dior Eluchíl]] received the jewel and brought it to [[Doriath]]. True to their oath, the sons of Fëanor (led by [[Celegorm]]) demanded the Silmaril. When Dior refused to surrender it the brothers assaulted Thingol's ancient kingdom. [[Celegorm]], [[Caranthir]] and [[Curufin]] all fell, as did Dior and his wife, [[Nimloth of Doriath]]. But the four remaining brothers - Maglor, Maedhros, [[Amras]] and [[Amrod]] - did not recover the Silmaril, for [[Elwing]], the daughter of Dior and Nimloth, escaped.<ref>{{S|Doriath}}</ref>
[[File:Turner Mohan - Maglor's Fosterling.jpg|left|thumb|''Maglor's Fosterling'' by [[:Category:Images by Turner Mohan|Turner Mohan]]]]
Eventually the three brothers heard tiding that [[Elwing]] possessed a Silmaril and dwelt at the [[Mouths of Sirion]]. Driven by their Oath, the remaining sons of Fëanor made a sudden attack upon the refugees of [[Gondolin]] and Doriath. However they were again thwarted, for Elwing escaped with the Silmaril across the [[Belegaer|Sea]] to her husband [[Eärendil]]. Together, they sailed into the [[Aman|West]] and their voyage would eventually cause the downfall of Morgoth. Meanwhile, [[Elrond]] and [[Elros]], Eärendil and Elwing's sons, captured in the battle, were adopted by Maglor, and it is said that love grew between them.
[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Maglor Casts a Silmaril into the Sea.jpg|thumb|''Maglor Casts a Silmaril into the Sea'' by [[Ted Nasmith]]]]
After Morgoth's fall, the last two Silmarils were recovered from his [[Iron Crown]]. By this time, only Maedhros and Maglor remained of Fëanor's sons. In weariness and loathing, they demanded the jewels from [[Eönwë]], the herald of [[Manwë]]. Eönwë refused them the Silmarils due to their many evil deeds. Still driven, the two brothers crept into the camp of Eönwë and stole the jewels. Though they were caught, Eönwë let them depart. Each brother took one jewel, but their evil deeds caused the holy Jewels to burn their hands. Maedhros in despair cast himself into a fiery fissure. Maglor, the last surviving son of Fëanor, threw his Silmaril into the Sea. Legend says that he still wanders the shores of the World, singing laments for his despair and regret.<ref>{{S|Earendil}}</ref>

==Etymology==
''Maglor'' is not glossed in the mature [[Sindarin]], but being the [[Sindarized]] version of the [[Quenya]] name ''Makalaurë'',<ref name=Vinyar>{{VT|41b}}, p. 10</ref> it would mean "Forging Gold".<ref name=Feanor>{{PM|Feanor}}, pp. 352-353</ref> In a pure Sindarin rendition it would have been '''''Magalor'''''.<ref name=Vinyar></ref>

In the [[Noldorin]] phase of the name, it is interpreted as "Gold-cleaver", also coming from ''Makalaurë''.<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, "MAK-"</ref>

==Other names==
His [[father-name]] was '''''Kanafinwë''''', a name which in [[Quenya]] means "Strong-voiced [[Finwë]]". The shorter form was '''''Káno'''''. It is derived from ''[[káno]]'', a noun which means "commander", added to the name of his grandfather.<ref name=Feanor></ref>

His [[Amilessë|mother-name]] was '''''Makalaurë'''''. Its meaning is unclear, but it is generally interpreted as "Forging Gold", being a prophetic reference to his skill in harping, whose sound was golden (here ''[[laurë]]'' being a poetic word and not refered to the metal).<ref name=Feanor></ref>

== Genealogy ==
<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MHT | | MIR |y| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | | | | | |MHT=[[Mahtan]] ''b. {{YT}}''| MIR=[[Míriel]] ''d. {{YT|1170}}''|FIN=[[Finwë]] ''d. {{YT|1495}}''|IND=[[Indis]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree| |!| | | | | |!| | | |)|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree| NRD |~|y|~| FEA | | FDS | | FNG | | IRM | | FRF | | |NRD=[[Nerdanel]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FEA=[[Fëanor]] ''{{YT|1169}} - {{YT|1497|n}}''|FDS=[[Findis]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]] ''{{YT|1190}} - {{FA|456}}''|IRM=[[Írimë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FRF=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''}}
{{familytree| |,|-|-|^|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree| MDH | | MAG | | CEL | | CAR | | CUR | | AMD | | AMR |MDH=[[Maedhros]] ''d. {{FA|587}}''|MAG='''MAGLOR''' ''b. {{YT}}''|CEL=[[Celegorm]] ''d. {{FA|506}}''|CAR=[[Caranthir]] ''d. {{FA|506}}''|CUR=[[Curufin]] ''d. {{FA|506}}''|AMD=[[Amrod]] ''d. {{FA|538}}''|AMR=[[Amras]] ''d. {{FA|538}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | CLB | | | | | | | | |CLB=[[Celebrimbor]] ''d. {{SA|1697}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>

{{references}}
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Gnomish names]]
[[Category:Minstrels]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Noldorin names]]
[[Category:Rulers in Beleriand]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[Category:Sons of Fëanor]]

[[de:Maglor]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/maglor]]
[[fi:Maglor]]

Talk:Maglor

2022-08-19T17:40:08Z

Undercat:

What it comes to the year of birth of Maglor (and other sons of Fëanor), I wouldn't mention the year Y.T. 1497: their father was born in Y.T. 1179 (Annals of Aman §78, HoME X, p. 92), and they were first mentioned in annals in Y.T. 1490 when they followed their father Fëanor to exile to Formenos (Annals of Aman §99, HoME X, p. 96). They were quite probably born much closer to the year Y.T. 1179 (in "Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar" it is told that they usually married soon after their fiftieth year and "their time of generation was in their youth and earlier life" (HoME X, p. 210. 212). Fëanor and Nerdanel were a unique exception with their seven children but still the terminus ante quem is clearly Y.T. 1490. --Tik 10:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

I can find no source for this line in the first paragraph, having checked the Silm and PoME: "He had more of his mother Nerdanel's gentle spirit than any of his brothers." 1) Nerdanel is never described as having a gentle spirit; 2) Maglor is never explicitly said to be one of the sons to whom Nerdanel bequeathed her mood to in part. Does anyone have a source? If not, I think the line should be deleted. [[User:Undercat|Undercat]] 17:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Undercat

2022-08-08T19:30:49Z

Undercat: Created page with "Fan of Tolkien since childhood, been in online fandom a few years, new to Tolkien Gateway. Especially interested in the Second Age and the First Age Edain."

Fan of Tolkien since childhood, been in online fandom a few years, new to Tolkien Gateway. Especially interested in the Second Age and the First Age Edain.

Talk:Celebrimbor

2022-08-08T19:28:55Z

Undercat:

Talk:Celebrimbor

2022-08-08T19:10:33Z

Undercat: /* Celebrimbor in Gondolin */

I'm having second thoughts on my assumption that "Celebrimbor" comes from ''[[celeb]]'' + ''[[drambor]]''. While ''drambor'' means "clenched fist", as in for punching, ''[[paur]]'' means a fist as in holding a craft-tool or implement. Does anyone know which is correct? "Drambor" is closer to "-imbor" but the [[Quenya]] ''[[quár|quárë]]'' from Telperinquar is closer to [[Sindarin]] ''paur''. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:24, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:[[The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth]] defines it as 'Hand of Silver' or 'Silver Fist' as celebrin = silverlike; bor = hand, fist. Unfortunately ''drambor'' doesn't seem to be listed in the book. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::My Sindarin dictionary ([[Dragonflame]] 2.0 by Hiswelókë; excellent downloadable program by the way) has no entry for ''bor''. The entries for "fist" are ''drambor'' and ''paur''. I'm not quite willing to accept ''bor'' or ''paur'' just yet. Does anyone else have any input? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:37, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::Taking a second look at ''The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth'', it mentions ''paur'' as meaning first or hand. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::::Well, here is the article in the [http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html Tolkien Linguistic Dictionary]:

:::::'''''Celebrimbor''' — S-ised form of Telerin ''Telperimpar'', and Q ''Tyelpinquar''; see '''celeb''' silver, Telerin adjective ''telperin'', S adjective ''celebrin'' silver-like [appx], from '''KYÉLEP'''- silver [see Celeborn¹]; see also '''KWAR'''- fist, Q ''qáre'', Nol ''paur'', ''-bor'' [Etym], Q ''quárë'' [the ''grasp'' of the smith, not a fighter's fist; [appx]; 'Silver Grasp'; a great Elven smith, maker of the Three Rings of the Elves; devised the name ''Mithril'' ''

::::I have always found this site trusty enough. Tell me your opinion on it. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:58, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::::Narfil, I think you're right with the word ''paur''. From Hiswelókë's compilation: <blockquote>'''tegilbor'''* [tɛgˈil̡bɔr] n. one skilled in calligraphy, a calligrapher ◇ PM/318, VT/47:8 ◇ tegil+paur</blockquote>Hope this helps. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 15:13, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

==With or without Annatar?==

It says in this article that Celebrimbor made the Three Rings without the knowledge of Sauron. [[The Silmarillion]]:[[Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]] differs here. I won't quote the whole three paragraphs here, but it says that Sauron never touched them, ''but he desired them most'' due to their powers, among other things. It is clearly against the statement here. Now, I know that the Silmarillion is not always the authority. Is there any writing that contradicts this and supports the article? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:58, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

:Nothing's in the Letters. I'm going to change it, at least temporarily. By the way, do we have an "unverified" template? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:29, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

== Birth (and death) ==

I removed references from the article that Cel. was born in Valinor. They are unsourced and at least according to the EoA, no source mentions his birth.

Concerning his death, I read somewhere that his body was mutilated and used as a banner by Sauron's forces; [[:File:Abe_Papakhian_-_Death_of_Celebrimbor.jpg|this image]] backs up my memories. However "Of the Rings of Power" and "Shadows of the Past" don't mention such a detail. Where is this mentioned? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:I back you up in the second part too. I think it was from UT, "Galadriel and Celeborn". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

::You're right.

::{{Blockquote|In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.|{{UT|Concerning}}}}

::--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

== Shadows of Mordor ==
Is there anywhere on Celebrimbor's article that we should include his appearance in the latest Middle-earth video game, ''Shadows of Mordor''?
PS; funny, I got the question "What was the name of Sauron's Dark Land?" Pretty appropriate. - OutrightUndead

:You should create a "Portrayal in adaptations" section in the article, and a paragraph about the Shadows of Mordor game. You can look in other articles to see the appropriate format for those sections, for example [[Galadriel#Portrayal_in_adaptations]]. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

==Problem of Celebrimbor==
Now...in "The Lord of the Rings" Celebrimbor is said to be a descendant of Fëanor. However, in the later writings he was conceived as a descendant of Daeron. And as it that was not enough [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] also played with the idea that he was an elf of Gondolin. And in Tolkien's latest writings he was not a Noldo, but a Telerin elf who accompanied Teleporno (afterwards named Celeborn) and Galadriel in their voyage to Middle-earth...So...I think that article about Celebrimbor should be in the same category as Celeborn (considering the ambiguity of his lineage) [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:Completely disagree. Note 7 in "[[Of Dwarves and Men]]" makes it clear that Tolkien altered ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' in the second edition to specifically refer to [[Celebrimbor]] as a descedent of Fëanor. Christopher says quite clearly, in response to the 1968 jottings that Celebrimbor was Telerin, "''When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating the Celebrimbor 'was descended from Fëanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.''"

:Similarly, Hammond and Scull in ''A Reader's Companion'' are unequivocal about his ancestry (see p. 227). As far as I can see, there is no problem here; the difference with Celeborn is that there is an unresolved contradiction acknowledged by everyone (including Christopher) - that is not the case with Celebrimbor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

::There is only one problem with your statement. [[Christopher Tolkien]], for all his efforts and, undoubtedly considering his knowledge of the Tolkien's work, the fact remains that he is NOT [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]. As much as I am convinced considering his statement that "no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it would undoubtedly have felt bound by it" this still comes from the words of an editor, and not Tolkien himself.
::Speculations, no matter how well-versed in the lore, should be considered suspect. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:::As there is vastly more material published by Christopher than by J.R.R.T. himself, I think we are on a very perilous road if we ignore his commentary on his father's writings. Can you name me any Tolkien scholar who thinks that Celebrimbor is anything other than a Noldor, or, indeed, that there is a reasonable debate to be had about his heritage? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

== Celebrimbor in Gondolin ==
So, I've been examining the various texts relating to Celebrimbor and it seems to me that the version where he was a descendant of Feanor (as in the 2nd edition of the LOTR) who followed him into exile (as in PoME) and later repudiated his father Curufin in Nargothrond (as in the published ''Silmarillion'') is the "definitive" or base version which should go into the main section of the article.

However, I see no non-contrived way to reconcile it with the version where he was a smith of Gondolin. Did he go with Turgon from Vinyamar to Gondolin when it was first established - how did he then appear in Nargothrond while Gondolin was still a secret? Did he fight in the Nirnaeth and then joined the retreating Elves of Gondolin - possibly? But all this is bordering on fanfiction. More to the point, when Tolkien devised this origin of Celebrimbor, he did not imagine him as being descended from Feanor - hence the addition to the 2nd version of LOTR.

All that said, I vote that we move the Gondolin material into OVOTL. (Also, him being in love with Galadriel is also from that same conception I believe - it would make it kind of disturbing if he were a grandson of Feanor, and therefore a first cousin once removed to Galadriel.) - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, what should we do about the Elessar stuff? I vote for all of it to go to OVOTL too. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:I agree, moving the statements to OVOTL seems the reasonable spot for them. The reader can decide how much weight they want to give them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, the Son of Curufin being in Gondolin is a clever way to try to reconcile irreconcilable canon, but there is no way that the canonical son of Curufin could have been a smith in Gondolin (which was a closed city), and I'm not sure why that's privileged over trying to reconcile the versions where he's Telerin or Sindarin with Appendix A. Another vote for moving the Gondolin material to OVOTL. - [[User:Undercat|Undercat]] 19:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Celebrimbor

2022-08-08T19:09:02Z

Undercat: /* Celebrimbor in Gondolin */

Talk:Celebrimbor

2022-08-08T19:03:13Z

Undercat: /* Celebrimbor in Gondolin */

I'm having second thoughts on my assumption that "Celebrimbor" comes from ''[[celeb]]'' + ''[[drambor]]''. While ''drambor'' means "clenched fist", as in for punching, ''[[paur]]'' means a fist as in holding a craft-tool or implement. Does anyone know which is correct? "Drambor" is closer to "-imbor" but the [[Quenya]] ''[[quár|quárë]]'' from Telperinquar is closer to [[Sindarin]] ''paur''. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:24, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:[[The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth]] defines it as 'Hand of Silver' or 'Silver Fist' as celebrin = silverlike; bor = hand, fist. Unfortunately ''drambor'' doesn't seem to be listed in the book. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:31, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::My Sindarin dictionary ([[Dragonflame]] 2.0 by Hiswelókë; excellent downloadable program by the way) has no entry for ''bor''. The entries for "fist" are ''drambor'' and ''paur''. I'm not quite willing to accept ''bor'' or ''paur'' just yet. Does anyone else have any input? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:37, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::Taking a second look at ''The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth'', it mentions ''paur'' as meaning first or hand. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:47, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

::::Well, here is the article in the [http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html Tolkien Linguistic Dictionary]:

:::::'''''Celebrimbor''' — S-ised form of Telerin ''Telperimpar'', and Q ''Tyelpinquar''; see '''celeb''' silver, Telerin adjective ''telperin'', S adjective ''celebrin'' silver-like [appx], from '''KYÉLEP'''- silver [see Celeborn¹]; see also '''KWAR'''- fist, Q ''qáre'', Nol ''paur'', ''-bor'' [Etym], Q ''quárë'' [the ''grasp'' of the smith, not a fighter's fist; [appx]; 'Silver Grasp'; a great Elven smith, maker of the Three Rings of the Elves; devised the name ''Mithril'' ''

::::I have always found this site trusty enough. Tell me your opinion on it. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:58, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

:::::Narfil, I think you're right with the word ''paur''. From Hiswelókë's compilation: <blockquote>'''tegilbor'''* [tɛgˈil̡bɔr] n. one skilled in calligraphy, a calligrapher ◇ PM/318, VT/47:8 ◇ tegil+paur</blockquote>Hope this helps. --[[User:Ebakunin|Ebakunin]] 15:13, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

==With or without Annatar?==

It says in this article that Celebrimbor made the Three Rings without the knowledge of Sauron. [[The Silmarillion]]:[[Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]] differs here. I won't quote the whole three paragraphs here, but it says that Sauron never touched them, ''but he desired them most'' due to their powers, among other things. It is clearly against the statement here. Now, I know that the Silmarillion is not always the authority. Is there any writing that contradicts this and supports the article? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 16:58, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

:Nothing's in the Letters. I'm going to change it, at least temporarily. By the way, do we have an "unverified" template? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 18:29, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

== Birth (and death) ==

I removed references from the article that Cel. was born in Valinor. They are unsourced and at least according to the EoA, no source mentions his birth.

Concerning his death, I read somewhere that his body was mutilated and used as a banner by Sauron's forces; [[:File:Abe_Papakhian_-_Death_of_Celebrimbor.jpg|this image]] backs up my memories. However "Of the Rings of Power" and "Shadows of the Past" don't mention such a detail. Where is this mentioned? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:15, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

:I back you up in the second part too. I think it was from UT, "Galadriel and Celeborn". --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

::You're right.

::{{Blockquote|In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.|{{UT|Concerning}}}}

::--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

== Shadows of Mordor ==
Is there anywhere on Celebrimbor's article that we should include his appearance in the latest Middle-earth video game, ''Shadows of Mordor''?
PS; funny, I got the question "What was the name of Sauron's Dark Land?" Pretty appropriate. - OutrightUndead

:You should create a "Portrayal in adaptations" section in the article, and a paragraph about the Shadows of Mordor game. You can look in other articles to see the appropriate format for those sections, for example [[Galadriel#Portrayal_in_adaptations]]. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 16:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

==Problem of Celebrimbor==
Now...in "The Lord of the Rings" Celebrimbor is said to be a descendant of Fëanor. However, in the later writings he was conceived as a descendant of Daeron. And as it that was not enough [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] also played with the idea that he was an elf of Gondolin. And in Tolkien's latest writings he was not a Noldo, but a Telerin elf who accompanied Teleporno (afterwards named Celeborn) and Galadriel in their voyage to Middle-earth...So...I think that article about Celebrimbor should be in the same category as Celeborn (considering the ambiguity of his lineage) [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 13:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:Completely disagree. Note 7 in "[[Of Dwarves and Men]]" makes it clear that Tolkien altered ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' in the second edition to specifically refer to [[Celebrimbor]] as a descedent of Fëanor. Christopher says quite clearly, in response to the 1968 jottings that Celebrimbor was Telerin, "''When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating the Celebrimbor 'was descended from Fëanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.''"

:Similarly, Hammond and Scull in ''A Reader's Companion'' are unequivocal about his ancestry (see p. 227). As far as I can see, there is no problem here; the difference with Celeborn is that there is an unresolved contradiction acknowledged by everyone (including Christopher) - that is not the case with Celebrimbor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

::There is only one problem with your statement. [[Christopher Tolkien]], for all his efforts and, undoubtedly considering his knowledge of the Tolkien's work, the fact remains that he is NOT [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]. As much as I am convinced considering his statement that "no doubt he had forgotten that the theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it would undoubtedly have felt bound by it" this still comes from the words of an editor, and not Tolkien himself.
::Speculations, no matter how well-versed in the lore, should be considered suspect. [[User:Woolly Mammoth|Woolly Mammoth]] 16:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

:::As there is vastly more material published by Christopher than by J.R.R.T. himself, I think we are on a very perilous road if we ignore his commentary on his father's writings. Can you name me any Tolkien scholar who thinks that Celebrimbor is anything other than a Noldor, or, indeed, that there is a reasonable debate to be had about his heritage? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

== Celebrimbor in Gondolin ==
So, I've been examining the various texts relating to Celebrimbor and it seems to me that the version where he was a descendant of Feanor (as in the 2nd edition of the LOTR) who followed him into exile (as in PoME) and later repudiated his father Curufin in Nargothrond (as in the published ''Silmarillion'') is the "definitive" or base version which should go into the main section of the article.

However, I see no non-contrived way to reconcile it with the version where he was a smith of Gondolin. Did he go with Turgon from Vinyamar to Gondolin when it was first established - how did he then appear in Nargothrond while Gondolin was still a secret? Did he fight in the Nirnaeth and then joined the retreating Elves of Gondolin - possibly? But all this is bordering on fanfiction. More to the point, when Tolkien devised this origin of Celebrimbor, he did not imagine him as being descended from Feanor - hence the addition to the 2nd version of LOTR.

All that said, I vote that we move the Gondolin material into OVOTL. (Also, him being in love with Galadriel is also from that same conception I believe - it would make it kind of disturbing if he were a grandson of Feanor, and therefore a first cousin once removed to Galadriel.) - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, what should we do about the Elessar stuff? I vote for all of it to go to OVOTL too. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 18:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:I agree, moving the statements to OVOTL seems the reasonable spot for them. The reader can decide how much weight they want to give them. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 18:54, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

:Yes, the Son of Curufin being in Gondolin is a clever way to try to reconcile irreconcilable canon, but there is no way that the canonical son of Curufin could have been a smith in Gondolin (which was a closed city). It is fanfiction. Another vote for moving the Gondolin material to OVOTL.

Himring

2022-08-08T18:57:36Z

Undercat: corrected timeline - previously article stated feanorians left for east after thingol learned of the kinslaying, canonically they left shortly after maedhros waived claim to high kingship

{{location infobox
| name=Himring
| image=[[File:David Monette - Himring.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Himring" by David Monette
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=Between the [[Pass of Aglon]] and [[Maglor's Gap]]; later as an island in [[Belegaer]]
| type=Hill/island
| description=Tall flat-topped treeless hill, fortified
| regions=
| towns=
| inhabitants=[[Noldor]]
| created=
| destroyed=
| events=[[Dagor Bragollach]], [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]
}}
'''Himring''' was a hill in the northeast of [[Beleriand]]. It was east of the [[Pass of Aglon]] and west of [[Maglor's Gap]].<ref>{{S|Map}}</ref> The greatest hill of that region, it was wide-shouldered, treeless, with a flattened summit, and surrounded by numerous lesser hills.<ref name="Beleriand">{{S|Beleriand}}</ref> After the [[War of Wrath|drowning of]] [[Beleriand]] at the end of the [[First Age]], the peak of Himring remained above the waves.<ref name=UTIMap>{{UT|IMap}}</ref>

==History==
===The fortress of Maedhros===
The fortress on Himring was built when the Sons of Fëanor went east shortly after [[Maedhros]], eldest of the [[Sons of Fëanor]] waived his claim as [[High King of the Noldor]] in favor of [[Fingolfin]].<ref>{{S|Return}}</ref> It was the chief fortress of Maedhros, from which he guarded the north-eastern border region that became known as the [[March of Maedhros]].<ref>{{S|Beleriand}}</ref>

The fortress stood firm through the [[Dagor Bragollach]], and many survivors from the surrounding regions, including Maedhros' brother [[Maglor]], rallied there. In the battle the [[Orcs]] had taken the [[Pass of Aglon]], but Maedhros was later able to retake the Pass using the forces from Himring.<ref>{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref>

Himring's fortress remained for centuries, until the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]; it's possible that it was forsaken, as the sons of Fëanor would no longer have had the strength to man it, had they so chosen.<ref>{{S|Fifth}}</ref>

===The Island===
[[File:Didier Willis - Location of Tol Morwen.png|thumb|300px|Remnants of sunken Beleriand: the islands west of Forlindon, Tol Himling, [[Tol Fuin]] and (speculatively) [[Tol Morwen]].]]
After the [[War of Wrath]], when the western lands were flooded, the plains about the hill were drowned and the top of the hill was all that remained of Himring. Left standing as an island, Himring lay off the north-west coast, about twenty-five miles out from the shores of northern [[Lindon]].<ref name=UTIMap/>

==Etymology==
Literally, the name means "cool-cold".<ref>{{S|Appendix}}, ''him''</ref><ref>{{HM|Guide}}, p. 200</ref> Himring is translated as "Ever-cold".<ref name="Beleriand"/>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
On the original maps that accompany ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', the island was labelled ''Himling'', since this was Tolkien's early name for what later would become ''Himring'' in ''[[The Silmarillion]]''.<ref name=UTIMap/><ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. lxvii</ref>

{{references}}
{{Remnants}}
[[Category:Beleriand]]
[[Category:Fortresses]]
[[Category:Hills]]
[[Category:Islands]]
[[Category:Sindarin locations]]
[[de:Himring]]
[[fi:Himring]]
[[fr:encyclo/geographie/reliefs/beleriand/himring]]