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Talk:Elrond

2024-01-10T11:19:11Z

VolundNYC: /* Lord of Rivendell */ Reply

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How about changing main image of Elrond? He looks a buit...uh...odd? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 12:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

:What did you have in mind?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:40, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

::That Elrond looks odd in this picture.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 16:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

:::If no one disagrees, I suggest changing to the image used in this old revision [[http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Elrond&oldid=61385]]. Morover, this other image was uploaded with permission. {{unsigned|Morgan}}

::::I honestly don't like any of the images of Elrond already uploaded to TG.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::I prefer the current image to the previous one, but, as KingAragorn says, I don't think any of them are particularly great. I would be ''tempted'' by a film-image, and would suggest [[:File:The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring - Elrond 2.jpg|this one]] if it weren't for the weird contrast. On deviantArt, the vast majority of Elrond images are Hugo Weaving. Our current image is fourth on a Google Image search for Elrond. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::I like [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/art/Elrond-the-Ageless-196696708?q=boost%3Apopular%20elrond&qo=7 this one]. We can always ask DeviantART artists for permission.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::It is good, and do ask away as it would be nice to have it here anyway, but I think we should have a film one. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Would you prefer a photograph from the film, or an artistic picture of Hugo Weaving's Elrond?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 14:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::That's defiantely a great picture, KA! We should ask him/her for permission, and put use it as our main image. Maybe we should also ask if could have these images too: [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/art/Fingon-194746104?q=gallery%3Ajankolas%20randomize%3A1&qo=2 Fingon], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/art/Luthien-Tinuviel-198553543 Lúthien], [http://cg-warrior.deviantart.com/art/Legolas-175279824? Legolas], [http://gold-seven.deviantart.com/art/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-Project-198119388? LOTR], [http://silinde-ar-feiniel.deviantart.com/art/La-calla-perdida-193976458? The Lost Road], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d4atgnv Galadriel], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d4bti7j Maedrhos], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d3d4p0q Arwen], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d36i3se Finrod], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d35v5vl Finrod], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=48#/d3c2az0 Tirion], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=72#/d35pq2f Gandalf rides to MT], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=96#/d3361mm Aragorn], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=96#/d31kbkb Rivendell]. Actually al his/her images are great. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 14:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::A photo, because I think we have so few of them! And yes, a general request to use their art would be good. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::How's [http://smeagel.webs.com/photos/Elrond/Elrond%2520Silver%2520Shirt.jpg this one]?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::That one is good. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 18:53, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::::It is! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

'''Not a Noldo''' – in the essay "The Problem of -Ros", Tolkien states that, although his ancestry includes all elven clans, Elrond favored his Sindarin descent preeminently. I have removed reference to him as a Noldorin elf. Inasmuch as he chose to be an elf, he also gets a say in his heritage, which is Sindarin.

== Infobox image ==

I think we should change the infobox image to something like [[:File:NOLANOS - Elrond.jpeg|this]] because illustrations based on the novels are favoured. If anyone has any suggestions, I am open to all. Also, two other images on the page are from the films while there is a [[:Category:Images of Elrond|supply]] of others. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

:I agree it should be changed. My own preference is [[:File:Ana Kusicka - Elrond.jpg|this image]]; although I like the one you've chosen, long images in infoboxes can create a bit of a problem with the layout of the page so they should be avoided (see [[Tar-Telperiën]]). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:30, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

::True. The image you suggested is very good, and it won't make the infobox interfere with the page content. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 14:58, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

== Lineage breakdown? ==

Should i add a breakdown of elrond's lineage into the page? it might be useful. also inform me if i should add the same breakdown onto elros's page? --[[User:Kulid123|Kulid123]] 22:08, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

== Inaccurate statement ==

Subsequently he became the only character to appear in all three of The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings.

This statement isn't accurate as Gandalf is also mentioned in all three.{{unsignedanon|172.69.34.235|03:10, 26 March 2021}}

:I suggest we remove it, it's inaccurate and OOU. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

::Out of universe seems perfectly appropriate in the "Other versions of the legendarium" section, which is entirely OOU content. I just corrected the inaccuracy by mentioning Gandalf.[[User:Jerodast|-jerodast]] 07:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

==image==
Perhaps it is time to choose another profile image. The current one is not the best I could think of. For now I propose the one by Ebe Kastein. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

:I agree, but I'd vote for [[:File:Irsanna - This sword was made in Gondolin.jpg|Irsanna's]], which depicts him bearing the ring Vilya. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 14:12, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

::How about '''''[[:File:Tatyafinwe - Portrait of Elrond.jpg|this one]]'''''? -[[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] 07:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

== Lord of Rivendell ==
Here, what is the source that Elladan and Elrohir became lord of Rivendell after Elrond left Middle-earth?

Also again mentioning House of Fingolfin sounds suspicious to me.[[User:Shivam|Shivam]]

:I agree with both comments. Both sounds wrong to me, any references?. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 14:12, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

::We have no evidence one way or the other as to whether Elladan and/or Elrohir ever used the title "Lord of Rivendell."
::Elrond is not ''of'' the House of Fingolfin; the infobox states Elrond is "'''Descended from''' all three Houses of the Edain and '''elven House of Fingolfin'''." This description is accurate, owing to his female-line descent from Turgon through Idril. Technically speaking, Elrond is ''of'' the House of Hador, but leaving it at just that would be so incomplete as to be wrong in every meaningful way. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 05:22, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

:::So are we removing House of Fingolfin?--[[User:Shivam|Shivam]] 13:40, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

::::He's definitely descended from the House of Fingolfin and that is an important part of his heritage, so I would leave it alone. If anything, I would add House of Elwë as well. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 05:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

:::::Thanks Lorenzo. I think you misunderstood me Mord, I was talking about the title box (Sorry for this name, but I don't know what its called).--[[User:Shivam|Shivam]] 08:01, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

::::::Whoops, you're right. I was looking at the wrong part of the infobox. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 15:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

:::::::Houses and families, in Tolkien's legendarium, seem to follow a consistent patrilineal descent. Staying true to this, Elrond (and his brother and father) is a descendant of the House of Hador. Notice how he is considered a "descendant" as the house is now defunct. As such, the infobox for Elrond (and other characters that follow this pattern) shouls be corrected to "Descendant of the House of Hador". Adding all other lineages is trivial and redundant when considering the context of patrilineal descent in Tolkien's works.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 01:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::::Not entirely consistent. The kingship of Numenor was, after the rule was changed, passed down by strict primogeniture. In fact, Tolkien went back to an eldest child, Silmarien, who had been passed over before that rule was changed, and made her the progenitor of the line of the Lords of Andunie, which gave rise to the rulers of the Realms in Exile. If we're going strictly by eldest heirs, irrespective of gender, that line is actually the senior line. [[User:VolundNYC|VolundNYC]] ([[User talk:VolundNYC|talk]]) 11:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
:::::"It has been argued that, following Gil-galad’s death, Elrond had the right to become High King of the Noldor, but he never claimed the title. Indeed, after the Second Age ended, there were very few Noldor left in Middle-earth for there to be a king over."
:::::He's also Thingol's remaining heir. Once again, that's through a female line, but on that basis his grandfather Dior took up the lordship of Doriath, no matter how briefly.
:::::In any event, the lordships and titles in question (High King of the Noldor, High King of the Teleri(?), etc.) are in any meaningful sense defunct by the time they come down to Elrond. [[User:VolundNYC|VolundNYC]] ([[User talk:VolundNYC|talk]]) 11:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Elrond

2024-01-10T11:10:57Z

VolundNYC: /* Lord of Rivendell */ Reply

__TOC__

How about changing main image of Elrond? He looks a buit...uh...odd? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 12:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

:What did you have in mind?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:40, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

::That Elrond looks odd in this picture.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 16:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

:::If no one disagrees, I suggest changing to the image used in this old revision [[http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Elrond&oldid=61385]]. Morover, this other image was uploaded with permission. {{unsigned|Morgan}}

::::I honestly don't like any of the images of Elrond already uploaded to TG.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::I prefer the current image to the previous one, but, as KingAragorn says, I don't think any of them are particularly great. I would be ''tempted'' by a film-image, and would suggest [[:File:The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring - Elrond 2.jpg|this one]] if it weren't for the weird contrast. On deviantArt, the vast majority of Elrond images are Hugo Weaving. Our current image is fourth on a Google Image search for Elrond. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::I like [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/art/Elrond-the-Ageless-196696708?q=boost%3Apopular%20elrond&qo=7 this one]. We can always ask DeviantART artists for permission.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::It is good, and do ask away as it would be nice to have it here anyway, but I think we should have a film one. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Would you prefer a photograph from the film, or an artistic picture of Hugo Weaving's Elrond?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 14:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::That's defiantely a great picture, KA! We should ask him/her for permission, and put use it as our main image. Maybe we should also ask if could have these images too: [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/art/Fingon-194746104?q=gallery%3Ajankolas%20randomize%3A1&qo=2 Fingon], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/art/Luthien-Tinuviel-198553543 Lúthien], [http://cg-warrior.deviantart.com/art/Legolas-175279824? Legolas], [http://gold-seven.deviantart.com/art/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-Project-198119388? LOTR], [http://silinde-ar-feiniel.deviantart.com/art/La-calla-perdida-193976458? The Lost Road], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d4atgnv Galadriel], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d4bti7j Maedrhos], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d3d4p0q Arwen], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d36i3se Finrod], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/26812093#/d35v5vl Finrod], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=48#/d3c2az0 Tirion], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=72#/d35pq2f Gandalf rides to MT], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=96#/d3361mm Aragorn], [http://jankolas.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=96#/d31kbkb Rivendell]. Actually al his/her images are great. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 14:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::A photo, because I think we have so few of them! And yes, a general request to use their art would be good. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::How's [http://smeagel.webs.com/photos/Elrond/Elrond%2520Silver%2520Shirt.jpg this one]?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::::That one is good. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 18:53, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::::::It is! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

'''Not a Noldo''' – in the essay "The Problem of -Ros", Tolkien states that, although his ancestry includes all elven clans, Elrond favored his Sindarin descent preeminently. I have removed reference to him as a Noldorin elf. Inasmuch as he chose to be an elf, he also gets a say in his heritage, which is Sindarin.

== Infobox image ==

I think we should change the infobox image to something like [[:File:NOLANOS - Elrond.jpeg|this]] because illustrations based on the novels are favoured. If anyone has any suggestions, I am open to all. Also, two other images on the page are from the films while there is a [[:Category:Images of Elrond|supply]] of others. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:20, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

:I agree it should be changed. My own preference is [[:File:Ana Kusicka - Elrond.jpg|this image]]; although I like the one you've chosen, long images in infoboxes can create a bit of a problem with the layout of the page so they should be avoided (see [[Tar-Telperiën]]). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:30, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

::True. The image you suggested is very good, and it won't make the infobox interfere with the page content. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 14:58, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

== Lineage breakdown? ==

Should i add a breakdown of elrond's lineage into the page? it might be useful. also inform me if i should add the same breakdown onto elros's page? --[[User:Kulid123|Kulid123]] 22:08, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

== Inaccurate statement ==

Subsequently he became the only character to appear in all three of The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings.

This statement isn't accurate as Gandalf is also mentioned in all three.{{unsignedanon|172.69.34.235|03:10, 26 March 2021}}

:I suggest we remove it, it's inaccurate and OOU. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

::Out of universe seems perfectly appropriate in the "Other versions of the legendarium" section, which is entirely OOU content. I just corrected the inaccuracy by mentioning Gandalf.[[User:Jerodast|-jerodast]] 07:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

==image==
Perhaps it is time to choose another profile image. The current one is not the best I could think of. For now I propose the one by Ebe Kastein. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

:I agree, but I'd vote for [[:File:Irsanna - This sword was made in Gondolin.jpg|Irsanna's]], which depicts him bearing the ring Vilya. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 14:12, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

::How about '''''[[:File:Tatyafinwe - Portrait of Elrond.jpg|this one]]'''''? -[[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] 07:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

== Lord of Rivendell ==
Here, what is the source that Elladan and Elrohir became lord of Rivendell after Elrond left Middle-earth?

Also again mentioning House of Fingolfin sounds suspicious to me.[[User:Shivam|Shivam]]

:I agree with both comments. Both sounds wrong to me, any references?. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 14:12, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

::We have no evidence one way or the other as to whether Elladan and/or Elrohir ever used the title "Lord of Rivendell."
::Elrond is not ''of'' the House of Fingolfin; the infobox states Elrond is "'''Descended from''' all three Houses of the Edain and '''elven House of Fingolfin'''." This description is accurate, owing to his female-line descent from Turgon through Idril. Technically speaking, Elrond is ''of'' the House of Hador, but leaving it at just that would be so incomplete as to be wrong in every meaningful way. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 05:22, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

:::So are we removing House of Fingolfin?--[[User:Shivam|Shivam]] 13:40, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

::::He's definitely descended from the House of Fingolfin and that is an important part of his heritage, so I would leave it alone. If anything, I would add House of Elwë as well. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 05:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

:::::Thanks Lorenzo. I think you misunderstood me Mord, I was talking about the title box (Sorry for this name, but I don't know what its called).--[[User:Shivam|Shivam]] 08:01, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

::::::Whoops, you're right. I was looking at the wrong part of the infobox. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 15:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

:::::::Houses and families, in Tolkien's legendarium, seem to follow a consistent patrilineal descent. Staying true to this, Elrond (and his brother and father) is a descendant of the House of Hador. Notice how he is considered a "descendant" as the house is now defunct. As such, the infobox for Elrond (and other characters that follow this pattern) shouls be corrected to "Descendant of the House of Hador". Adding all other lineages is trivial and redundant when considering the context of patrilineal descent in Tolkien's works.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 01:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::"It has been argued that, following Gil-galad’s death, Elrond had the right to become High King of the Noldor, but he never claimed the title. Indeed, after the Second Age ended, there were very few Noldor left in Middle-earth for there to be a king over."
:::::He's also Thingol's remaining heir. Once again, that's through a female line, but on that basis his grandfather Dior took up the lordship of Doriath, no matter how briefly.
:::::In any event, the lordships and titles in question (High King of the Noldor, High King of the Teleri(?), etc.) are in any meaningful sense defunct by the time they come down to Elrond. [[User:VolundNYC|VolundNYC]] ([[User talk:VolundNYC|talk]]) 11:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)