Forums:Fëanorian criticism

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Feanor's insights (from the Discord's server)

Now, I want to first say that I've been there, I've done that; I've tried to see if this early Tolkien writing can be reconciled with RGEO. And I had to make up a lot of fanfiction to make sense out of this. As Christopher once said complete consistency in his father's various texts can only be achieved (if at all), only with needless cost. So let's follow the facts only. The versions in which Gal and Celeb go to Evendim are from 1955-1959~. In these Celebrimbor is their follower. This is important. Now let's see what Tolkien said in a later version from PE17 "many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond. ( Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.) ". Celebrimbor is no longer their subservient follower. He is "Lord of Eregion" - Appendix B. No mention of Celebrimbor and Galadriel and Celeborn going to evendim, it's straight to foundation of Eregion here. Now let's see what Appendix B says about this migration. "Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains, and near to the West-gate of Moria. This they did because they learned that _mithril _had been discovered in Moria." It doesn't say they went from Evendim to Eregion, it says they went from Lindon to Eregion. If Galadriel and Celeborn and Celebrimbor were in Evendim, then what becomes of the quote from Appendix B ? Indeed, in a 1968+ note Tolkien repeats this: "He was a great silver-smith, and went to Eregion attracted by the rumours of the marvellous metal found in Moria,". So Celebrimbor was one of those Elves of Lindon who went to Eregion because of mithril discovery in Moria. In an author published book, Tolkien states : Galadriel ‘passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion’. Again, no mention of Evendim. Tolkien simply could write "went to Evendim and later to Eregion". But he did not. Now if we try to go against Tolkien intentions and try to fit the evendim version into the later version... Let's see what happens.

  • Evendim version: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Evendim with their follower Celebrimbor.
  • Later version : the Noldor dwelt in Lindon. Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion. 750 Eregion founded by the Noldor.
  • Later version: Celebrimbor went to Eregion. Galadriel and Celeborn as well crossed the Ered Luin and went to Eregion.
  • Later version: Galadriel and Celeborn were chief examples of the Noldor and Sindar who left Lindon. But Celebrimbor who founded Eregion was also important.

If Galadriel and Celeborn and their follower Celebrimbor were in Evendim, then what becomes of the fact that in the later version Celebrimbor was not their mere follower but their "great friend"? What becomes of the statement that Celebrimbor was head of founding Eregion?

If the Trio were at Evendim with a lot of people around them, then what becomes of the statements that the Noldor left Lindon and went to Eregion because of mithril rumors? That's what becomes of it: we have to make uo stuff to make sense out of it. This is the fanfiction I wrote a long time ago on r/lotr subreddit to make sense out of it: Galadriel and Celeborn and their followers (that would include Celebrimbor) went to Evendim in earliest years of SA.

Tolkien oversimplified and over summarized events in later writings.

He probably wanted to say that the Noldor of Lindon who got attracted by rumors of mithril and left Lindon in 750 are the second host of the migration of the Noldor.

Galadriel must've spread this news to make more Noldor join her followers. Then from Evendim they made it to Eregion.

And then "750 Eregion founded by the Noldor" - Appendix

And Galadriel and Celebrimbor were both Noldor and therefore they were both ruling Lord and Lady of the realm. And the mention that Celeborn (a Sinda) was also a founder of this realm means no more than he was the sidekick of his noldorin wife. As you can see it looks very nice and even more dramatic and political and expanded story than what Tolkien himself intended late in life. But that's it. That's not what Tolkien intended. I was putting together various different and radical versions and making up excuses and inventing stuff Tolkien never wrote to justify the misinformation I had shared on r/lotr several times. To quote the whole Appendix B related text: "In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward. and some established realms in theforests far away. where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil. king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these. In Lindon north of the Lune dwelt Gil-galad, last heir of the kings of the Noldor in exile. He was acknowledged as High King of the Elves of the West. In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women. She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir. Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains, and near to the West-gate of Moria. This they did because they learned that _mithril _had been discovered in Moria. The Noldor were great craftsmen and less unfriendly to the Dwarves than the Sindar; but the friendship that grew up between the people of Durin and the Elven-smiths of Eregion was the closest that there has ever been between the two races. Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor." Facts : The Elves of Beleriand who survived and didn't leave Middle-earth, dwelt in Lindon and Grey Havens.

Galadriel dwelt for a time in Lindon. BUT later some of the Noldor left Lindon and went to Eregion. "Celebrimbor.... went to Eregion" "Galadriel.... passed over the mountains... and went to Eregion". Who founded Eregion? Not Galadriel. But Celebrimbor. In the year "750". Some times.... The answer is simply that Tolkien changed the story. The older version that the Noldor left Lindon under Galadriel's lead in the first century of the Second Age or so... is simply an invalid abandoned idea. Hopefully this has been helpful and the admins revise the related articles accordingly. Much appreciated.

Well, you can see now things are different in Galadriel's article. I removed the idea of Galadriel and Celeborn as the founders of Eregion, which indeed contradicts later texts. However, saying that she stayed at Evendim does not suppose such a great deal. RGEO is a brief summary and doesn't necessarily mean G&C moved to Eregion instantly, like if they had such a hurry to cross the whole Eriador. Besides, most texts imply Celebrían was born around this time (two manuscripts say she was born in Evendim), so it is not that crazy to assumed there were settled down independently. Anycase, between the notes and the "Unsolved contradictions" section, enough information is given to allow the reader to decide which version to choose; this can be applied to any other matter.
A review on the main SA elf characters (from Reddit)

These days, general fans look up wikis to find information especially about these elf characters: Gil-Galad, Elrond, Galadriel, and Celebrimbor.

Unknown to them, the wikis are not perfect. Far from that. Tolkiengateway is the best among all wikis. But even the best is extremely flawed.

For start, read the First Age section of Gil-Galad story and compare it with what Tolkien himself wrote about him. TG has Gil-Galad as the son of Orodreth in the top profile. And yet uses a wholly different version of Gil story.

What Tolkien wrote in Parentage of GilGalad: "His children were Finduilas and Artanaro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Noldor there." Here Gil was born in Nargothrond and after the kingdom fell he came to Sirion and then became King there and after the Third Kinslaying they fled to Balar.

What TG wrote (paraphrasing): GilGalad was sent to Cirdan far before Nargothrond fell. He was at Falas. He was at Balar already before the Third Kinslaying. (There are much more outdated information presented in the main section)

Now, as for Celebrimbor. The Tolkiengateway wiki says Celebrimbor is grandson of Feanor. OK. Let's see what Tolkien wrote about Celebrimbor as grandson of Feanor version.

Tolkien in Of Dwarves and Men: "Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Feanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin). During their dwelling in Nargothrond as refugees he had grown to love Finrod and his wife, and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel." That's everything he ever wrote about Celebrimbor Feanorian in First Age.

What Tolkiengateway writes: "After the Sack of Nargothrond, Celebrimbor lived for a time in Gondolin, where he was a jewelsmith for King Turgon. Perhaps, he was taught this art by Enerdhil, the master jewelsmith. In Gondolin the first Elfstone had been created, either by Enerdhil or by Celebrimbor.[7] He survived the Fall of Gondolin and most likely fled to the Mouths of Sirion with the other refugees led by Tuor, and thence to Balar."

The gateway says they are using Celebrimbor Feanorian Version, and yet at the same time they are using a completely different version of Celebrimbor in which he was not grandson of Feanor but was a follower of Turgon ever since Years of the Trees. Tolkien wrote that people who escaped from Nargothrond migrated to Mouths of Sirion. But the gateway says Celebrimbor retreated to Gondolin after the event of the Fall. Tolkien never wrote that. In fact, the TGwiki doesn't even understand no 'outsider' elf knew the way to the Hidden Kingdom of Gondolin. That's the whole point of Gondolin, being hidden from both enemies and friends. Did I say Friends? Turgon absolutely hated Feanor and his offsprings.

Now as for Elrond, the gateway doesn't even mention that Elrond was present in the Fall of Thangorodrim (see the Council of Elrond chapter). It mentions relatively less important events. But Elrond answering the call of Eonwë to battle? Nope.

TG: "It has been argued that, following Gil-galad’s death, Elrond had the right to become High King of the Noldor, but he never claimed the title." I do not know why they have to share a fan invented argument here that has no source in the text. Tolkien never explicitly says Elrond had rights to the high kingship (it's a natural assumption that he had but it's never stated). And there is obviously no text about Elrond rejecting the title.

As for Galadriel, the article is an absolute mess. I don't know where to begin and where to end. They improved the Years of the Trees Galadriel in September the second, but the rest of her story? Not so much. I will point just a few of confusions (out of many) :

They are almost constantly showing Galadriel (the most valiant woman) fleeing from battles almost everytime there is a battle approaching her.

I contacted the admin and asked him why he has removed to mention Galadriel was in the Battle of the Lammoth and that she was among the leaders who marched to Angband and smote upon its gates. The admin answered that he thinks there's no need to mention these!

I asked the admin where did he get the idea that Galadriel and Celeborn (Sindarin Version) fled from Doriath (when things began to go very ill for Beleriand). And he said its in FotR. I showed him this link to clear up his confusion of different canons and the retconned version:

Hopefully the gateway corrects this. It's been years.... Barely anyone is listening to Christopher who said that Galadriel survived the devastating ruin of Beleriand in the retconned version his father wrote ( from UT: "when Frodo met Galadriel in Lórien, more than sixty centuries had passed since she went east over the Blue Mountains from the ruin of Beleriand"). She did not flee! Until Beleriand was completely destroyed and began to sink into ocean.

The gateway also has decided to exclude Galadriel from participating in the War of the Elves and Sauron for some reason. Here are some quotes from when Tolkien came to realize his great Elf heroine should be in battles:

"They [Galadriel and Celeborn] take part in the establishment of Eregion and later of its defense against Sauron" (NoME) “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." (Parma Eldalamberon 17) “After the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien” (NoME) and “fortified Lorien” (UT)

So please, do not take wikis too seriously. They are not written by Christopher Tolkien and JRR Tolkien. Instead, read the books and enjoy them at their full glory.

War of Wrath (from Reddit)

A useful post shared in the Discord server: The Last Battle details that did not make it into the Silmarillion